Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 11 May 2011, 19:28
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Just now I have been discussing how the functionings of the four factions seem rather Earth-like and really don't utilize the sci-fi setting very well. For example, the Federation is described as a rather paper-based democracy, yet, this is the future, why don't they have an electronic system with instant referenda and so on? They likely do, it's just CCP doesn't outline it. Similarly, I thought the four navies was something that needs to be looked at. Why does each of the four empires, as unique as they are supposed to be, all have these standing militaries that are near-identical? Let's take a look at the Asari military described from Mass Effect...
The asari military resembles a collection of tribal warrior bands with no national structure. Each community organizes its own unit as the locals see fit, and elect a leader to command them. Units from populous cities are large and well-equipped, while those from farm villages may be only a few women with small arms. There is no uniform; everyone wears what they like. The asari military is not an irregular militia, however; those who serve are full-time professionals.
Boom. This is unique, and reflects the asari culture. The four navies just seem to be arbitrary creations (mostly for the sake of game mechanics) without actually utilizing the cultures they are born from.
Minmatar - The Republic Fleet was likely a Gallentean creation, but I say ditch it. Ditch all the "Republic" elements. Instead, their military warriors would come from the Tribes as and when needed, and do not have a standing military.
Caldari - Why exactly do they have a Caldari Navy? I'm sure someone can provide a decent reason why, but it just makes better sense that the CEP drafts joint fleets from the eight megacorporate paramilitaries for collective operations. This reflects Caldari culture of uniting against an enemy where and when needed.
Amarr - Their navy should composed of a cabal of True Amarr professional officers, who oversee what is mostly a slave military, with highly experienced slaves who have been in the business a long time being petty and warrant officers. The latter are not really treated as 'slaves' as such in this respect. Alternatively, have the Amarr Navy just be a smaller military arm of the Emperor's holdings alone, and rely heavily on the House militaries. The idea of "The King's army leads the regents' armies".
Gallente - A professional standing military, as "the average Gallente citizen is not inclined to join the military". It would resemble what we have now.
Instead, we just seem to have this rather dull Amarr, Caldari, Minmatar and Gallente Navy with really nothing that makes them different and truly reflect their factions. All the governments are different and unique, but the militaries are samey. In effect, the Amarr is a feudal state, yet has a monolithic navy. The Caldari are a confederacy of corporations, yet have a monolithic navy. The Minmatar are a collection of tribes, yet have a monolithic navy. What do people think?
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EDIT re: Amarr
Amarr is supposed to be feudal, yet according to the Privy Council page on EVElopedia (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Privy_Council#Full_Council)
The Imperial Navy's strong ties to House Sarum and unswerving loyalty to the Imperial Throne, together with the enforcement of the Heideran VII edict against personal fleets, have seen its power increase tremendously.
Centralized power with monolithic fleets is bo-ring and unoriginal...!
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You post all this like you expect to wave our hands hand have CCP fix the PF
The game is the way it is, posting this sort of stuff won't change anything. Go post in the features and Ideas forum on the eve-o website, or the Eve Fiction forum.
Like...what do you want us to do with this? There's nothing to discuss, or debate, you're making a statement for the sake of it. Yes its well written and put together...but there's nothing we can do about it. I could say yes I agree, or no I don't and we could debate the way it should be all day, but that's not the way it is.
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I think it is actually a pretty good point. True as Nikita says we cant do much to change it, but it would be fun to see what people think about how the navies should or could be.
Seriphyn makes a good case for how they could be and I tend to agree with it now that I'm actually thinking about it. I do think that even if put the way Seriphyn describes them each empire would still have a standing navy of some sort albeit a bit smaller one for rapid response while the larger forces from the empire in question muster.
I'd say the reason :psyccp: did it the way they did is to give players a easily recognizable place to go for "kill" missions.
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Caldari - Why exactly do they have a Caldari Navy? I'm sure someone can provide a decent reason why, but it just makes better sense that the CEP drafts joint fleets from the eight megacorporate paramilitaries for collective operations. This reflects Caldari culture of uniting against an enemy where and when needed.
A few of us who play Caldari interpret the PF to mean this very thing already.
The Caldari Navy (http://"http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Navy_(NPC_corporation)") exist because it is not economically beneficial for each of the 8 mega's PMCs to maintain fleets and squadrons of battleships, just so the State has a composite Navy on par with the Federation or Empire. If each of the 8 PMCs maintained a significant number of Battleship squadrons, the State would likely have invested more in total than by funding a Battleship squadron heavy, CEP overseen navy. The centralized navy can also act as a corp around which composite battlegroups are built, eliminating/minimizing infighting over things like chain-of-command when facing an outside threat.
In other words, I think there is a general lack of PF with regard to how the Navy's are actually different from each other. It is easy to paint them with the same brush, but very possible to also develop their nuances based on surrounding PF.
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In my opinion, from a top-down perspective on the military structure of the major empires, and based on New Eden's interstellar landscape, certain 'realities' just make the most sense in terms of efficiency of structure. If anything, I think the military structures would largely depend on the kind of technology at their disposal, what they consider a 'fleet' (unit compositions) in space. Now, given that the empires seem to be largely on par with one another technologically, it's not much surprise that they appear on the surface to be similar.
I think where they probably differ significantly is in their military culture and traditions. What is their perspective on war or combat action? What mottos and codes do they stand for in battle? How do they honor their dead?
From their overall culture and the nature of their vessels, you could extrapolate various ideas. For instance, since the Minmatar seem to prefer speed and generally have to make due with little resources, one could infer they prefer recon strike forces and rapid deployment strategies, with an emphasis on avoiding the loss of valuable ships. Or maybe their 'fight to the very end' attitude would lead them to prefer a suicide impact to take as many with them as possible. One could also infer that their generals are the kind of individuals who are resourceful and quick thinkers that can adapt to rapidly changing scenarios, who prefer whittling down superior forces through attrition. (You could just make this shit up..)
I do disagree strongly with the suggestion that slaves would be used in the Imperial
Navy. A professional military, especially as grand and old as the Amarr are going to be a well respected fighting force of experienced servicemen, not a ragtag band of reluctant conscripts. Also, from what I understand, each house has it's own military in addition to the Empress. The implication being that even the Emperor could be overthrown if he/she becomes too unpopular with the existing heads of family. (something Dune-esque there) I'm guessing the military would also be the easiest place for a commoner to be recognized by higher castes within the Amarrian government, and a stepping stool for potential heirs and sons of holder families to build some notoriety. Given the nature of the Amarrian religion and how embedded it is in its society, one could venture a guess they would be rather fervent (one could also say zealous) in their duty, probably akin to the Minmatar's "live free or die" philosophy. In that vein, one could see how their generals would employ in large numbers to intimidate their foes and inspire fear, with an emphasis on brute strength to send their message.
The Caldari, well I like that their Navy is separate from the megacorporations. It seems to be an institution designed to cross boundaries and remind everyone that, while they may have their corporate allegiances, they are all caldari in the end. To that end, I could see many fresh military types starting there, and later moving on into the private sector after their term is up. Maybe, and probably especially with the implementation of the Provist government, joining some branch of the military is probably necessary at a certain age for a certain number of years. Considering how much they push the electronic warfare and technological superior angle, I'm assuming this disruptive technology is utilized to generate confusion amongst enemy fleets, to allow a smaller but more capable fleet to dismantle larger ones. And while their institution may be a lot newer than the Amarrian one, the quality of their officers are probably better because there's not such an emphasis on position/family background to concern with. Of course, the Provist thing may have changed everything...now I'm sure only the most fervent of stooges get promoted while those less than inclined may get the cold shoulder...or worse.
The Federation's democratic government and cultural emphasis on 'enjoying life and its pleasures' seems to line up pretty well with their difficulty in recruiting and keeping a professional military, especially during peacetime. The preference for AI drones and automated systems also makes a lot of sense to minimize casualties and make sure that the local senator doesn't get too much slack for supporting the war with casualty numbers. I also think you'd see a larger population of women in active service ( i know there has been a lot of debate over this subject, but I think the sexes play different roles in different cultures). Also, given the way their culture promotes creativity and freedom of expression, (going out on a limb on this) they might be more inclined to try new fleet maneuvers or gamble on an instinct. But given the state of their new war, I think they'd be playing conservatively and defensively, which is probably a new situation for them as they've mostly been the aggressors.
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My writing for my own heavily EVE-inspired roleplay setting might help a little here. I can ramble for a long time about it though, so I want to check people are OK with that first.
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My writing for my own heavily EVE-inspired roleplay setting might help a little here. I can ramble for a long time about it though, so I want to check people are OK with that first.
do eet :)
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It is good to remember that while on the surface, the Amarr are a theocracy, but in a bad moment, they're essentially a military dictatorship. The Imperial Navy must be strong enough to keep the Heirs in line, or to be exact, it must be strong enough that its mere existence stops any single heir sending an upside-down Amarr symbol and seceding from the Empire. For a more familiar setting to Seriphyn, why didn't the British Empire just keep a small navy and trust that her dominions send the bulk of the ships? And yes, while the Amarr do employ slaves in many duties, it's not such of a gimmick that slaves must be employed everywhere. A loyal descendant whole grandparents were slaves, for example, might motivate the now-slaves into loyally getting blasted to bits, knowing that one day, their descendants are free.
For Caldari, I think the matter has already been discussed a bit, and I do agree with the other posters - the CN is the "grand fleet" as well as possibly other formations that must remain corporate-neutral (even if not all CN formations are truly neutral within the state), and on prolonged campaigns (see Caldari Prime) it'll need considerable external help.
Minmatar copy the Gallente. Plus have a good number of spaceship guerrilla bands and tribal and corporate militaries. The Republic Fleet might be the biggest out there, possibly challenged by the Thukkers, if they weren't dispersed all around the place, and again possibly the Elders' fleets. The combined number of the smaller outfits (Defiants, Freedom Fighters etc.) might also be considerable.
Gallente had trouble hiring people from the armed forces. The pay is terrible, the service might be, you know, kinda hard. I bet they do have a whole lot of mercenaries and activist nutjobs around there. And the Navy might use a whole lots of mercenaries - sorry, private military contractors - to do the things it doesn't have manpower to do. The Navy is still an arms of the Federal government, and thus is relatively big, with funding very likely increasing due to current political situation.
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Caldari - Why exactly do they have a Caldari Navy? I'm sure someone can provide a decent reason why, but it just makes better sense that the CEP drafts joint fleets from the eight megacorporate paramilitaries for collective operations. This reflects Caldari culture of uniting against an enemy where and when needed.
Some people have already talked about this one a bit. But, don't forget to ask who would make a good 'neutral' rolled-up newspaper for the CEP, and maybe CBT, to bap a couple of megas on the nose if their shadow games and feuds started to get too rambunctious.
"We said the two of you need to cool it."
Edit for the Minmatar: I think if anyone suggested reducing the Republic Fleet, they'd be asked if they want another Day of Darkness.
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I always figured the Caldari would use a lot of private military contractors.
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I always figured the Caldari would use a lot of private military contractors.
Those who don't have their own militaries use PMCs, including the corporate police forces. The megacorporations, however, use their own, unless the mission demands things like plausible deniability or they absolutely have to (it is faster to mobilize capsuleer agents than the corporate police forces).
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It's rare to see these navies go at it in-game. There's been a few trailers, yeah, but they're mostly of the "Omfg side A has brought 200 ships - but omfg, side B has brought 1,000 ships and ZOMG SPECIAL EFFECT ccp logo" variety.
There's no feel established for them.
What does a Gallente armada look like when it crashes into an Amarr fleet? What tactics do they employ? etc.
See, navies like Caldari and Amarr, I imagine using standoff tactics a lot - many wall formations to maximize synchronized alpha, or ensure all your missiles hit at the same time. Minmatar, I imagine forming their ships into spear formations to stitch holes in that wall (think the Klingons during battle to re-take DS9). Gallente battles, I imagine as the humans vs. the machines in Matrix 2 kinda - just waves of drones, millions of them, moving in streams, flowing around enemies while big blaster ships close in.
If you could visualize a space combat style for each army, what would it be?
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An updated Amarr Navy description was put up by CCP here on the EVElopedia (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_Navy#Overview). It doesn't really make it sound all that unique and this line...
The Navy's touch can be felt on every facet of the Amarr lifestyle, from the Emperor down to the lowest slave.
Could easily say that about the Caldari Navy and...
Citizens with military records are held in high regard in Amarr culture, and families with a long history of military service elevate themselves within Amarr society.
Well, that's going to apply to most/all navies of the cluster isn't it?
The Federation Navy actually offers the best pay of all the four navies, covered by both Abraxas and TonyG, as recruitment shortages and a peaceful, non-militaristic culture requires them to encourage recruits the best they can. From the New Eden Crew Guidelines page (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_Crew_Guidelines)...
Amarr ship designs incorporate more automation than many outsiders assume due to the sheer size of their fleets and their wide distribution across the Empire. While the Amarr military has legions of personnel, the vastness of the Empire and the requirements of the Navy mean that automation is essential, even on ships where there are complementary slave contingents.
Caldari vessels are noted for their advanced technology, but many overlook the fact that, with respect to crew complements, the Caldari Navy and corporate security forces are rather old-fashioned. Caldari society is highly militarized, and this, together with the relatively small size of their fleets compared to the other empires, has meant that they have never been under pressure of crew shortages. As a consequence, crew-substitute automatic systems are less in evidence in typical Caldari designs.
The Gallente Federation may have a large population but the average citizen is not inclined to join the Federal military. Moreover, the pressures of the first Caldari-Gallente War led the Federation to invest heavily in automation and military drones. This tendency has continued ever since, and the Gallente Navy has always ensured that their vessels are highly automated so as to allow them maximum use of their relatively tight personnel pool.
The Minmatar have never suffered from lack of numbers, even while so many of their brothers and sisters are enslaved by the Amarr or living in the Gallente Federation. Their excellence lies in mechanical devices but less so in automated systems. As a result, the Minmatar use large numbers of crew on their vessels. Some of the more advanced designs may be less rigid in this regard, but nearly any Minmatar ship will seem crowded compared to its contemporaries of other empires.
The Federation Navy may be more of a military that favours officers over general hands. Whereas the "old-fashioned" Caldari Navy would have a bunch of specialists/technicians on the bridge operating the various weapon systems, and deckhands loading missiles and guns, the Federation Navy would just have one "Tactical Officer" who would oversee all these functions from a bridge console.
That is one way the FedNav could have different character from its Caldari counterpart.
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As much as I agree that all navies really need a little more info and specialties, I find the comparison with alien military structures from ME a little weird. They are not even human. But yes, navies are probably very different from one to another. Just have to take a look at the amarr navy "wall of golden fire" doctrine described in Vak'Atioth, to the minmatar skirmish/hit & run doctrine described in the day of darkness, etc. Your comparison between the gallente officer overseeing a console and a crew of caldari high qualified technicians running the ship makes sense to me.
Citizens with military records are held in high regard in Amarr culture, and families with a long history of military service elevate themselves within Amarr society.
Well, that's going to apply to most/all navies of the cluster isn't it?
The Federation Navy actually offers the best pay of all the four navies, covered by both Abraxas and TonyG, as recruitment shortages and a peaceful, non-militaristic culture requires them to encourage recruits the best they can. From the New Eden Crew Guidelines page (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Eden_Crew_Guidelines)...
I think you miss why it has been stated as such an angular stone in the Amarrian society. Unlike the Federation where it can pay well or bring you a decent/comfortable life, or the Caldari/Matari navies were it brings pride and honor, the Amarr Navy is a symbol. It also brings a lot of pride and honor to its members, but we have to keep in mind hat this happens in a stratified society with a heavy social ladder. If this is important enough to bypass all the ladder even for a slave, it means that the service under the Imperial Navy is considered almost like a sacred duty that can really and totally change your place in the society. Probably and paradoxaly one of the very few meritocratic systems in the Amarr Empire.
If we have to continue to compare that to Mass Effect, the Amarr Navy is quite similar to the Turian Navy. Or at least, it heavily makes me think of it. And it also works for their ground forces too.
EDIT : if you want to compare, this "might" be inspiring, though be cautious with easy shortcuts :
The asari military resembles a collection of tribal warrior bands with no national structure. Each community organizes its own unit as the locals see fit, and elect a leader to command them. Units from populous cities are large and well-equipped, while those from farm villages may only be a few women with small arms. There is no uniform; everyone wears what they like. The asari military is not an irregular militia, however; those who serve are full-time professionals.
[...]
Since their units are small and typically lack heavy armor and support weapons, they are almost incapable of fighting a conventional war, particularly one of a defensive nature. So asari units typically undertake special operations missions. Like an army of ninja, they are adept at ambush, infiltration, and assassination, demoralizing and defeating their enemies through intense, focused guerrilla strikes.
Some parallels can be made with Minmatar navies.
Although they lack the brutality of the krogan, the skill of the asari, and the virtuosity of the humans, the turian military has formidable discipline. Officers and NCOs are "lifers" with years of field experience. Enlisted personnel are thoroughly trained and stay calm under fire. Turian units don't break. Even if their entire line collapses, they fall back in order, setting ambushes as they go. A popular saying holds: "You will only see a turian's back once he's dead."
Comparison with the Amarr Empire.
Boot camp begins on the 15th birthday. Soldiers receive a year of training before being assigned to a field unit; officers train for even longer. Most serve until the age of 30, at which point they become part of the Reserves. Even if they suffer injuries preventing front-line service, most do support work behind the lines.
Caldari.
Command and control is decentralized and flexible. Individual units can call for artillery and air support. They make extensive use of combat drone for light duties, and practice combined arms: infantry operates with armor, supported by overhead gunships. Strategically, they are methodical and patient, and dislike risky operations.
Tradition is important. Each legion has a full-time staff of historians who chronicle its battle honors in detail. The oldest have records dating back to the turian Iron Age. If a legion is destroyed in battle, it is reconstituted rather than replaced.
The turians recruit auxiliary units from conquered or absorbed minor races. Auxiliaries are generally light infantry or armored cavalry units that screen and support the main turian formations. At the conclusion of their service in the Auxiliaries, recruits are granted turian citizenship.
Except the first statement which is totally opposite to amarrian doctrines, even if they have been modernized a lot since their defeat, the rest is definitly fitting well with the Amarr.
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For gallente and caldari navies, it is a little harder to find parallels, mainly because they are less tainted with archetypes like amarr and minmatar are. They are closer to our ways, and our western world.
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The faction navies aren't the same at all, they are just poorly represented.
The pixels you see in space are just props, not the real thing. They represent the faction navies just like a miniature represents your character in a pen-and-paper RPG. It is up to you to add the depth that is obviously missing from the miniature.
Obviously, there isn't any crew in-game too, but that doesn't mean we can pretend there is. Just imagine the tribal markings, imagine the missives sent from megacorps to produce this cobbled together fleet etc.
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I live in a democratic republic yet I never voted for any of my captains while I was in the navy. This didn't reflect my culture at all, yet my head didn't explode.
Seriously, the fleets mimic CONCORD the best they can. That's a good reason for the sameness.
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A quote from "Under the Sea, the City"
I was twelve when I was accepted into the Caldari Army. I was strong for my age and I had long since learned what the world did to people.
So we know the State is a highly militarized society, so thus the lines between civil/soldier might blur considerably, with things like training from a young age, conscription, and so on.
Perhaps with the Republic Fleet, these days with a revival in tribal culture, rank is intrinsically tied to standing in your tribe. You cannot go past a certain rank without being of a certain age or have the certain rites of passage within your home tribe. This combines Minmatar culture with the "modern volunteer military" of the Gallenteans. This sounds like something CCP would likely describe imminently, with the blurred lines between tribe and military.
So, really now, with a little discussion between folk, we can see how each of the navies are quite distinct not only from each other, but what we have now. Even if the Caldari Navy may be more conventional in how it uses its personnel, they have training from a young age and so on. The Federation Navy, even as a volunteer force, would be condensed and streamling because of drones/automation, with a large emphasis on officers over hands, unlike the volunteer navies of today. And the Minmatar, as described, would have military rank tied to tribal standing.
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You're griping that none of the military doctrine or organization isn't very well explained -- but virtually nothing about how any of the government institutions in any of the empires is really all that well explained. You're missing the forest for the trees here I think.
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As a note, 'mericans do value their Armed forces somewhat. Seriphyn is serving, so I assume he does also see some value for the practitioners of the killing profession. However, assuming that the military is appreciated everywhere is not something that should be taken for granted. In the matter of fact, one of the international CV/resume writing tips around here is "don't mention that you've served in the military".
I work at a technical university - so a good amount of our students are young men. Most of them have been conscripted and served 6/9/12 months, and a good number of them are reserve NCOs or officers. Around here it is mostly indifferent whether you've had served (except that the fact that you've done with it and won't get conscripted once you're hired), but for some old-fashioned companies, being a reserve officer is a good thing.
Enter, say, South America. There might be a few countries where if you're too lazy to have a honest trade and too stupid to be a thug, you end up in the army. And with some luck, participate on the next month's coup. Or the coup the month after that. So soldiers are essentially sharing a profession with muggers.
Now, how would different cultures think about their militaries? Amarr we know that the military is esteemed (hello, military dictatorship disguised as theocracy). Caldari do still remember their independence strugge, so they like their soldier boys and girls. Plus Hethist propaganda during the new war. Gallente - well, pre-war the military was a good option if you couldn't become a clown. After the war broke out, I assume that there's a "revanchist" movement large enough to get the Navy manned, but still, I assume that the majority of the Gallente think of their military as a necessary evil. And finally, the Minmatar are likely divided - between a pacifist faction that wants to build their Republic and realizes that they're back to the slave camps without a military, and a militant faction that thinks the Republic Fleet is full of cowards who don't dare to take the fight to the Amarr (reinforced by the fact that when the Elder-Thukkers invaded to get millions of their brethren killed by Amarrians in the backlash, most of the RF stayed in the Republic).
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You post all this like you expect to wave our hands hand have CCP fix the PF
The game is the way it is, posting this sort of stuff won't change anything. Go post in the features and Ideas forum on the eve-o website, or the Eve Fiction forum.
Like...what do you want us to do with this? There's nothing to discuss, or debate, you're making a statement for the sake of it. Yes its well written and put together...but there's nothing we can do about it. I could say yes I agree, or no I don't and we could debate the way it should be all day, but that's not the way it is.
Quoting to highlight an unhelpful post which adds nothing to a discussion?
Edit: Yes, neither does my post.
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I gave Masks of Authority a read, it's a good one. Gives an idea of what the "corporate police" do, revealing it's more of a paramilitary. Out there protecting the interests of the corporation whereever they may be, with policework actually being the lowest and least prestigious in the outfit.
I was thinking the Federation Navy, while not the largest compared to the Amarrians, may be the furthest reaching navy in the cluster, designed for force/influence/power projection. It may span the entire cluster, whereas the Amarrian Navy is massive and more designed to cover an equally massive territorial area, acting as a large fist to strike out from the edge of Empire borders.
My thoughts anyway. I hope CCP falls through on these assumptions :X
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I think you mean "follows through", because otherwise you seem to say you hope they don't do what you want. That would confuse me. ;)
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Yes. Almost a thousand posts of how I want the EVE World to be, particularly the GalFed.
They will NOT go to waste :yar:
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It is unknown if the Imperial Exploration Fleets are still active. You know, brave Amarrians with the mission to go where no Amarrian has gone before, meet new civilizations and enslave them.
Nearly every corner of Empire space was first visited by the Navy's exploration corps, which investigates uncharted regions of space and surveys them for possible future conquest. First contact between the Amarr and nearly every other race in New Eden was facilitated through the Navy; sometimes peacefully, but often ending in violence.
So while the territorial fleets might be fitted with Augurors left over from the Day of Darkness, possibly with a few almost brand new Mallers from the days of Vak'Atioth, I'd expect that the exploration fleets - as well as other small crack units such as the Amarr Royal Guard wings/fleets - to be equipped with the best money can buy, and be present abroad and be quite proficient in things people wouldn't believe Amarr can be (guerrilla warfare, highly mobile warfare, etc.)
On the other hand, I'd assume that these days, the Federal Navy is going likely be the most modern navy - most of their ships were mothballed back when they were suffering from lack of manpower. Now that they're re-activating ships and building new ones, the fleet's going to have lots of brand new or retrofitted ships across the board. CalNavy is doing similar things all the time, but I'd assume it's more like a rolling replacement of old ships, so the Fed Navy will have an edge for a moment. Minmatar are just in the middle of a big brainfart, depending on what Shakor does with the money formerly diverted to plot holes - sorry, Elders.
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You need to look deeper into the origins of each of the Navies.
When you scrape away the surface name they're VERY different animals, from faction to faction. How they'e run, how they're funded and their operational principles and responsibilities are very different.