Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: hellgremlin on 16 Feb 2011, 20:37
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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1467289&page=1#8 (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1467289&page=1#8)
I'll paste the hinty bits here.
Maybe that is a thought Labron imparts to his students, before they head out into the world and go about their success and profit. A lesson about why some illusions need to be maintained. I leave you with that thought. Razz
..and this vague suggestion: If the idea of the wildly successful graduate piqued your interest, consider why someone is concerned that someone else was chosen for a task, and what that means.
So... in Eve's storyline... is there an incidence of someone being chosen for a task... with someone else expressing concern... and an overarching "this person is wildly successful" theme?
(I've found *one* but I'd rather not say what it is... not out of intentional obfuscation, but merely to see if anyone else can find something different - or identical, confirming my suspicion.)
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His allusion to the Matrix further convinces me that the Sleepers were humans who had their minds transferred to machines just like the CEO of Zainou, but they spend most of their time interacting with a virtual world rather than the real one. Thus they are 'sleeping.' The Mirrior site, is either a back up of their virtual world, or a back up of their minds - similar to a Capsuleers clone.
As for who you are thinking of, I have no idea. Outside of black mountain, all individuals with any meat to their stories are heads of State or powerful CEOs and aside from the Empress's new magic powers none have any overt connection to the ancient races that I am aware of.
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The only example I can think of is Hilen and Lianda (I think that's what they're called, anyway) in the Vitrauze Project and Anoikis chrons, as much as I like to look away from wormhole-space to try and find things about this storyline.
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Personally, I read it as an outright reference to the Anoikis chronicle:
"What is your assessment?"
"I believe she is dead."
"You are correct. There was activity on the line. She was at one of the mirrors."
The ambassador almost seemed to smile for a moment. "She learned well."
"She was taught by the best. We are concerned about the reasons why she was chosen. "
"Perhaps you should be, but then there are not many astrophysicists with clones."
"Let us hope it is that simple."
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As for who you are thinking of, I have no idea. Outside of black mountain, all individuals with any meat to their stories are heads of State or powerful CEOs and aside from the Empress's new magic powers none have any overt connection to the ancient races that I am aware of.
Except perhaps those trained by the SoCT. Or with links to the Elders - depending on who/what they actually are.
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Yep, those were my suspicions as well: Hilen and Lianda... now, *why* was Hilen concerned about Lianda being picked?
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Personally, I read it as an outright reference to the Anoikis chronicle:
"What is your assessment?"
"I believe she is dead."
"You are correct. There was activity on the line. She was at one of the mirrors."
The ambassador almost seemed to smile for a moment. "She learned well." <- Jovian Ambassador?
"She was taught by the best. We are concerned about the reasons why she was chosen. "
"Perhaps you should be, but then there are not many astrophysicists with clones."
"Let us hope it is that simple."
This "chosen" business. Was Lianda Burreau referred to in either of the Eve novels? Where else does she appear?
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This "chosen" business. Was Lianda Burreau referred to in either of the Eve novels? Where else does she appear?
Other than The Vitrauze Project and Seyllin news arc, nowhere from what I can gather.
Everything that is available seems to be there.
Personally, I'd bet on the SoCT being the key to this one particular mystery. If Burreau was educated by the Society she may have been groomed for the task.
Not sure who the ambassador is, but I guess he could be Jovian (though perhaps not representing the Jove Empire...). CreoDron seems to be the ones questioning Burreau's selection, meaning they may not have been entirely in the lead on the project (likely if the ambassador is Jove or SoCT). Whatever the case is, the ambassador does nothing to extinguish their suspicions.
The "wildly successful" people angle pretty much defines the SoCT schools, though it's not been expanded on much. If Burreau was a SoCT student, she would be one of those successful people.
My theory would be that the SoCT has been preparing for the Sleeper mystery for a long time, and known that a certain advancement of the mind would be necessary to solve the puzzle. However, they weren't sure on the "where" or "when" or "who". So they started seeding the Empires with people suited for the tasks. Now, not all SoCT students go for the same fields of study, so only a small percentage would be astrophysicists (which they apparently needed for the CreoDron job) and an even smaller percentage would meet the other requirements (Clone/pod?).
There are likely to be a relatively large number of astrophysicists around with clones, but the number of those with SoCT education would be tiny - and the number of those positioned to take on this job apparently came down to just one.
But that's just me theorycrafting.
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Oi.
So... in Eve's storyline... is there an incidence of someone being chosen for a task... with someone else expressing concern... and an overarching "this person is wildly successful" theme?
Prime suspects:
Mentas Blaque, Jacus Roden, Souro Foiritan, Keitan Yun.
One of these things is not like the other...
"Learned from the Best": Keitan Yun was a guest lecturer at the University of Caille. He has a female who communicates with the Minmatar Elders (though didn't she get reassigned to help a certain sister of a dead Megacorp CEO? Can't remember now). One of the biggies there. Possibly one of the individuals at the end of "Anoikis", but I doubt it; Keitan Yun was a political science guy; a diplomat, as far as I could tell. To be honest, I skimmed a lot at the end of Empyrean Age; I blame the huge page count. :oops:
Mentas Blaque: Lost election to Foiritan. Became head of the Black Eagles and the Fed Intelligence service thingy. Failed to keep Foiritan in office (hehehe).
Souro Foiritan: Booted out of office through the machinations of Jacus Roden. Not so successful. Was "keeping up an illusion" in order to keep power.
Jacus Roden: Was one of the "power players" who funded Crielere. Had issues with Foiritan's hand in shutting the project down. Got revenge later on, and is now President of the Federation. Second most likely suspect for a cover up, and being the real "big bad". Has the facade of a
Kuvakei: The dark horse of the competition; has wormhole tech, but certain evidence points to Kuvakei simply stumbling on some important info. He also states that he's a "liberator", "uplifting" people, etc.
The Broker: Need I say more? He has access to super cloning, an incurable disease, and was mad that the Minmatar were getting something he wanted (and for free, to boot).
There's a lot of ways you can spin that; but there's something else there, and I'll continue in a bit after I look something up.
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As for who you are thinking of, I have no idea. Outside of black mountain, all individuals with any meat to their stories are heads of State or powerful CEOs and aside from the Empress's new magic powers none have any overt connection to the ancient races that I am aware of.
Except perhaps those trained by the SoCT. Or with links to the Elders - depending on who/what they actually are.
So Malaetu Shakor didn't immediately pop into anybody else's head?
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Damn. Well, there goes any speculation I had.
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Damn. Well, there goes any speculation I had.
No my boy, you aren't seeing the whole picture. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Lecter)
So... in Eve's storyline... is there an incidence of someone being chosen for a task... with someone else expressing concern... and an overarching "this person is wildly successful" theme?
It sounds quite a bit like Capsuleers. Even if this is in relation to Burreau specifically (in the context that I am drawing this particular reference), it still fits.
So, my boy, is Hilen Tukoss a Capsuleer? How about the Jin-Mei at the meeting at the beginning of Anoikis? Did she not state the exact situation you mention above regarding Burreau?
The conversation at the end of Anoikis is rather blunt; the only way the Empires can maintain a balance of power in relation to wormholes, or something else? Further, with whom do they need to maintain power? The last question is easily answered; in the context of the chronicle, the Capsuleers. The Empires have objected at every stage to the increases of power given to Capsuleers. However, the Empires rely on Capsuleers more than they'd comfortably like to admit.
Again, someone is offering something to "balance the equation" so-to-speak. Now, if they have the power to do this, are they truly balancing things? As it's stated in Anoikis, "if this is ever understood in it's entirety, there will be consequences." This person obviously know what's going on in W-space, are maintaining an "illusion"...
Now who would be the most likely candidate given this information? Do you understand the basics of what is going on? Without a clear picture of what is going on, it's hard to fit the pieces correctly.
There's an intentional correlation with that idea and a similar one outlined by Ior Labron, but Lebron takes it a step further. He asks, what if the evil demon one day dropped the charade. Labron essentially argues that if you knew this entity had the power to reveal the truth, to liberate you from your prison, then you should surely question their intent, and be wary in considering them a liberator. The idea is a simple one, being; if they have the power to tear down the world of lies you have been living in, then surely they had a had in its creation too.
He's a mad genius. Why? Because at the end of the day, there is a very simple conflict going on, that he (and the rest of the folks at CCP) makes both fascinating and enthralling.
Take a step back, clear your mind, and look at the evidence that's there. Hell, Dropbear even stated that you were on to something that you didn't realize, Hellgremlin. Come on, it's so obvious!
Heh, and also; sometimes, the answers are so glaringly obvious that it hurts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_of_all_possible_worlds).
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Come on, it's so obvious!
Not sharing is not caring.
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Good point about that Jin-Mei. Something I hadn't thought of. Of course, the relevance of the Jin-Mei is completely unknown.
I'm pretty good at taking steps back and big picture overviews, but I'm not seeing what you're hinting at here :f
It feels like the Jovians are doing their damnedest to keep the four human empires at equal balance.
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I will say that my mind is not really up to the task of trying to solve this, and that I still half think CCP is sitting back waiting for something that a player says to strike their interest and then they will go with that. But I'll just throw this out there, based on some stuff below, and a bit of Mass Effect storyline. Sorry if someone has suggested this before.
What if this is all a game? I mean, in universe, all of this stuff going on is basically a game, a string of deceptions created for the sole purpose of diverting us podders and to a lesser extent the Empires. Think about this. There is a caste of powerful people with little to no controls over them, the podders. This caste is immortal, but new members are born every year, so it grows ever larger, and ever more powerful. Now ever some of the Empires are being lead by these podders. At some point, it would not be far off to assume that the majority of all people in the Eve Universe will be podders, just through the theory of evolution.
Now take the Jovians, who for all we have seen of them, are such a society, one that is declining after having reached its peek. Assume they could see that humans in the Empires were gradually evolving into what they were, and that as some point they would take over their place. And maybe most of the Jovians do not want to be dismissed so easily. Still, they know that even if they killed every last human in Eve, it would not stop their eventual replacement by something, so they decide to guide their replacement to take as long as possible. They influence the primative races evolving into the four empires, guide them along paths that will bring them into conflict. Think of the random chance it would take to have a religious empire within spitting distance of a tribal race that would resist slavery. Or of a democracy existing in the same system as a corporate government. Take it even further, wonder why there are ancient races that seemed to live in the exact areas that modern day races inhabit. We know there were previous Jovian Empires. Could they have influenced them as they may influence us? And it continues today. CONCORD, an organization the Jovians helped create, continues this conflict with a proxy war that will never end because its instigators will never die.
Then the next step. The Jovians know that sooner or later tech to rivel their own will come up, so they make sure that the tech that arrises mirrors their own, tech they know the weaknesses to. They give us the pod, and cloning. Then, just when we might discover something new on our own, we find Terran artifacts that becomes the Emperess's superweapon. There was a Jovian ship there, completing a mission. And then rogue drones open the wormholes. How would Gallente drones, no matter how corrupted, know how to do that, unless someone else told them to do it. So, the wormholes open up and we drop everything to steal the tech we find there instead of advancing our own. Tech from Sleepers, and who knows who they are. An ancient race, one of the Jovian's former pawns, filling a new role maybe? Then, when that winds up being easy and yesterday's news, the Sansha attack. Sansha who somehow managed to arrive in a Jovian system and take over a Jovian station, dispite not having technology that is greatly advanced from the Empires. And again, we do not question, but take this technology directly from them, using their own ships even.
Where does all of this bring us? We are being kept in balance, so that we will never find out something for ourselves, never join with each other and become a threat to the Jovians until we have served our purpose for them. As for what that is, maybe they will just kill us all and have the worlds start afreash. Maybe we will join with them to continue the cycle on others. Or maybe they will force us to replace them, and become the next Jovian empire as they die out, following their plan as we decieve the next races to be born.
Or I'm leting my inner conspiracy freak out a bit too much.
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Or I'm leting my inner conspiracy freak out a bit too much.
Possibly, but then again...
..."All these worlds are yours. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010:_Odyssey_Two#Epilogue)"
Ever hear of the Mirror Test?
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There seems to be this common idea that the Jovians are bad guys has sprung up lately, but that is never something I've believed. As I understood it, they are a dieing race who want to leave a legacy behind. Their goal is to make set humanity on a path that ensures they survive after the Jovians are gone and that they don't make the same mistakes that the Jovians did.
The Hyrdostatic capsule, SoCT Skill book and whatever other meddling they've done is giving humans the tools to survive their encounters with things like rouge drones and sleepers. Think about how quickly rouge drones conquered the drone regions and how fucked humanity would be with capsuleers. If it wasn't for the Pod, which turns humans in to hunters and drones into prey, the drones might have wiped out humans by this point.
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The Hyrdostatic capsule, SoCT Skill book and whatever other meddling they've done is giving humans the tools to survive their encounters with things like rouge drones and sleepers. Think about how quickly rouge drones conquered the drone regions and how fucked humanity would be with capsuleers. If it wasn't for the Pod, which turns humans in to hunters and drones into prey, the drones might have wiped out humans by this point.
Not to mention maintaining the quasi-stability between the other big factions (the big 4 and the others). Mutually assured destruction is a fairly solid way of securing peace, as twisted as it sounds, it's one of the most effective.
And Capsuleers are more effective than a planet buster bomb, because Capsuleers are able to sustain themselves and hit multiple targets in rapid succession if necessary.
Speaking of this little side-note, OOC I view FW as an IC way for the empires to point and go "look, we're sending the best of the best to do something." without actually accomplishing much. Because CONCORD is a board from the 4(5) big nations, and they passed the FW bills that allow the farce of a war, I honestly think it was a political move. Besides, name an economy that's better than a wartime economy?
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Besides, name an economy that's better than a wartime economy?
All of them.
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You're all talking about the ones who might be covering things up; what's the conspiracy? Is there one?
Also, what would "Pre-Jovian" mean? :bear:
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You're all talking about the ones who might be covering things up; what's the conspiracy? Is there one?
Also, what would "Pre-Jovian" mean? :bear:
"Pre-Jovian" to me, means 500 years ago (by Eve calendar.) That's how old the current Jove empire is, give or take.
The conspiracy... well, that would take too long to go over here. :F
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Since I'm now "officially" away from EVE (my account is *finally* inactive), I'll give some good, serious hints as to what I think is going on.
1: There's a reason the Talocan are in W-space with the Sleepers.
2: "Talocan" could have a root in "Tlalocan", or "Place of Tlaloc". Tlaloc is a mesoamerican deity, and Tlalocan is where he lived. Tlalocan was said to be reached through dreams, and always for the purpose of curing an illness.
3: "Tony Gonzales" - need I say more? ;)
4: TEA - A disease was "cured". ;) ;)
5: The Blood Raiders saw signs of their "end times" in images from Sleeper space.
6: Tlaloc was a God that required sacrifices.
Now, given this "random" information, and some more detailed information on the above subjects available from Wikipedia, I built a rather loosely constructed theory involving "Talocan Technology".
What if Talocan Technology does not refer to technology of the Talocan people, but technology found in "Talocan", the place of "Taloc". Given Tony Gonzales' penchant for mythology and "iconic figures", I have a strange feeling that Talocan are named such (and used in W-space) for a very obvious and symbolic purpose:
They were the ones using the Sleeper ships. I also highly doubt that they were the "Talocan people", simply someone using their technology.
From the Quarantine Area:
“You have entered a quarantine area. This region is infected. Leave now.”
“Violation of the quarantine will result in –“
“ –missiles are armed, ready to – “
Now, what was that about "Tlalocan", the "Place of Tlaloc"? What was the main reason to go there, and how did you get there?
1: You went there for a cure to a disease.
2: You get there in your sleep.
So, Sleepers go there and the Talocan go there, with at least one site sending out a message regarding a quarantine. The Sleepers have "The Mirror", with medical centers, biological research facilities, etc. I think the evidence points to a rather interesting possibility, one that I'm sure could easily fit in with the "Pre-Jovian Technology" idea presented in "The Blood-Stained Stars".
With all this evidence pointing to a disease, was there ever a cure? What kind of disease was it? Three enclaves in The Mirror point to genetic research. Part of that research points to genetic engineering.
The more fascinating aspect of "Tlalocan"? It was a place for those who had died violent deaths, particularly deaths associated with water.
"Wetgrave"?
It was also reached, through dreams, via whirlpools.
"Fluid routers"?
In the particular case of wetgraving, neurodegenerative case studies are mentioned in The Mirror enclaves. Fluid routers are used by the Sleepers. A lot of small things pointing in a very interesting direction I think. Also, Tech 3 ships basically extend the consciousness of the pilot into the various parts, based on advances gleaned from Sleeper technology.
So what if the "sacrifices" made by the "Talocan" to "Taloc" were sacrifices of people? In particular, people to operate technology they did not fully understand at the time? The software to operate hardware; hardware with hard limitations on capabilities, but with quite a huge amount of processing power.
"Are they human?"
"Not anymore."
;)
You want your beasts from beyond, your inhuman monsters? You want your multi-tentacled, Chthonic deities from beyond? Take a look in "The Mirror". :twisted:
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Since I'm now "officially" away from EVE (my account is *finally* inactive)...
See ya next week, bro.
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Since I'm now "officially" away from EVE (my account is *finally* inactive), I'll give some good, serious hints as to what I think is going on.
1: There's a reason the Talocan are in W-space with the Sleepers.
2: "Talocan" could have a root in "Tlalocan", or "Place of Tlaloc". Tlaloc is a mesoamerican deity, and Tlalocan is where he lived. Tlalocan was said to be reached through dreams, and always for the purpose of curing an illness.
3: "Tony Gonzales" - need I say more? ;)
4: TEA - A disease was "cured". ;) ;)
5: The Blood Raiders saw signs of their "end times" in images from Sleeper space.
6: Tlaloc was a God that required sacrifices.
Now, given this "random" information, and some more detailed information on the above subjects available from Wikipedia, I built a rather loosely constructed theory involving "Talocan Technology".
What if Talocan Technology does not refer to technology of the Talocan people, but technology found in "Talocan", the place of "Taloc". Given Tony Gonzales' penchant for mythology and "iconic figures", I have a strange feeling that Talocan are named such (and used in W-space) for a very obvious and symbolic purpose:
They were the ones using the Sleeper ships. I also highly doubt that they were the "Talocan people", simply someone using their technology.
From the Quarantine Area:
“You have entered a quarantine area. This region is infected. Leave now.”
“Violation of the quarantine will result in –“
“ –missiles are armed, ready to – “
Now, what was that about "Tlalocan", the "Place of Tlaloc"? What was the main reason to go there, and how did you get there?
1: You went there for a cure to a disease.
2: You get there in your sleep.
So, Sleepers go there and the Talocan go there, with at least one site sending out a message regarding a quarantine. The Sleepers have "The Mirror", with medical centers, biological research facilities, etc. I think the evidence points to a rather interesting possibility, one that I'm sure could easily fit in with the "Pre-Jovian Technology" idea presented in "The Blood-Stained Stars".
With all this evidence pointing to a disease, was there ever a cure? What kind of disease was it? Three enclaves in The Mirror point to genetic research. Part of that research points to genetic engineering.
The more fascinating aspect of "Tlalocan"? It was a place for those who had died violent deaths, particularly deaths associated with water.
"Wetgrave"?
It was also reached, through dreams, via whirlpools.
"Fluid routers"?
In the particular case of wetgraving, neurodegenerative case studies are mentioned in The Mirror enclaves. Fluid routers are used by the Sleepers. A lot of small things pointing in a very interesting direction I think. Also, Tech 3 ships basically extend the consciousness of the pilot into the various parts, based on advances gleaned from Sleeper technology.
So what if the "sacrifices" made by the "Talocan" to "Taloc" were sacrifices of people? In particular, people to operate technology they did not fully understand at the time? The software to operate hardware; hardware with hard limitations on capabilities, but with quite a huge amount of processing power.
"Are they human?"
"Not anymore."
;)
You want your beasts from beyond, your inhuman monsters? You want your multi-tentacled, Chthonic deities from beyond? Take a look in "The Mirror". :twisted:
It's almost as though you're hinting I should repeatedly self-destruct in a T3 ship near the Mirror, allowing my "lost" skillpoints to re-accumulate elsewhere :F
I wonder what the nature of the disease is. I've been giving it a lot of thinking. This Jovian Disease or whatever you want to call it.
Nearly omnipotent technological advancement... the ability to shape your environment into anything you desire... except, you simply run out of desire to keep doing it. Sounds like clinical depression. Don't these guys have Cipralex? Prozac?
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The Jovians need the capsuleers not-mad-and-broken minds to download into at some point. It's the only way to save their species. We are a cultivated crop.
Of course, we don't have enough SP to hold them yet without loss. Give it time.
Maybe. Or not. 8)
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We are a cultivated crop.
Of course, we don't have enough SP to hold them yet without loss. Give it time.
Maybe. Or not. 8)
I'm thinking this too. Especially with my recent eureka moment regarding the Voluval.
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It's almost as though you're hinting I should repeatedly self-destruct in a T3 ship near the Mirror, allowing my "lost" skillpoints to re-accumulate elsewhere :F
On the contrary, the lost skill points simply... uh... "point" to the inherent risks of using the technology.
I wonder what the nature of the disease is. I've been giving it a lot of thinking. This Jovian Disease or whatever you want to call it.
Neurodegenerative disorders are funny things... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurodegeneration#Aging_and_neurodegeneration)
Nearly omnipotent technological advancement... the ability to shape your environment into anything you desire... except, you simply run out of desire to keep doing it. Sounds like clinical depression. Don't these guys have Cipralex? Prozac?
Are they really omnipotent? Think about what I just pointed out about Tech 3. If one of the technologies based on Sleeper salvage is dangerous if actually used as intended, what would happen if someone used the technology without realizing the dangers? What if they lost some control, and just thought, "Well, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread! Why not use it to it's full potential, damn the risks?"
We are a cultivated crop.
Of course, we don't have enough SP to hold them yet without loss. Give it time.
Maybe. Or not. 8)
I'm thinking this too. Especially with my recent eureka moment regarding the Voluval.
Not quite. Most likely they're looking for a "bridge" between body and tech, without the nasty side effect of... you know... actually dying or losing a chunk of memory in the process. Another funny idea I had, what if the Sleeper tech in W-space was their proverbial womb? What if they were actually engineered in W-space? I mean, that would be a whole Oedipal thing right there, and would explain why they would be disinclined to take that route. :lol:
That is of course assuming that the Jove have a Talocan link... after all, think of how long ago the Jove were united in the Second Empire. It's around the time that the first Reclaiming was occurring on Amarr Prime/Athra according to the (admittedly contradictory) timelines on the EVE site.
The most fascinating thing for me? I wonder if there's a link between "Ametat and Avetat", Udorians, the Jove and the Takmahl. Cybernetics, bio-engineering, worshiping other Gods... ::cough::Taloc::cough::
What? I'm just saying, the timelines actually fit. ;)
Capsuleers aren't a crop, they're Sleepers v2.0 (or 3, possibly 4. I haven't quite worked that part out yet). A more careful and slow progression towards where the "Talocan" were originally trying to accomplish. Think about the "Book of Emptiness", why the Society would be interested in it, and the implications pointed to in "Jita 4-4", what happens when you lose a T3 ship when you're still in it, and above all Wetgraving.
At the end of the day, are the Jove truly malevolent? If they are manipulating the Empires, it's to make sure that they don't make the same mistakes they did. They're trying to protect everyone from a horrendous, "EPIC FAIL" moment of scientific discovery and stupidity.
If the situation is ever understood in its entirety, as you predict, then there will be consequences for these actions.
I do not share that view. What we do now benefits all parties. If our motives are ultimately viewed as benign, then any perceived wrongdoings can be explained in full detail as they are identified. Trust and clarification at the highest tiers will filter downward and provide the level of institutional compliance necessary to establish the agreement.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
:twisted:
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Sooo tempted to chuck it all and join them.
Also in EVE.
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Since I'm now "officially" away from EVE (my account is *finally* inactive)...
See ya next week, bro.
NO. You won't. My people are immune to the Jedi Mind Trick!
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They always come back...
one of us... one of us...
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Raise your hand if you remember the old "Reach 100 million SP and become a Jovian" thing CCP touted at the launch of EVE.
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Raise your hand if you remember the old "Reach 100 million SP and become a Jovian" thing CCP touted at the launch of EVE.
:|
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Yes, that is a part of my theory, but only in hindsight.
The idea came first, and afterward the realization that it fit all the holes, including that one.
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With increased awareness of the present, more peaceful existance is achieved.
If awareness is increased thousandfold, millionfold, would we perceive such existance to be anything else than sleep?
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I hate you all.
<3
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With increased awareness of the present, more peaceful existance is achieved.
If awareness is increased thousandfold, millionfold, would we perceive such existance to be anything else than sleep?
In what universe? The more I learn about our world, the less sleep I get :p
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The most fascinating thing for me? I wonder if there's a link between "Ametat and Avetat", Udorians, the Jove and the Takmahl. Cybernetics, bio-engineering, worshiping other Gods... ::cough::Taloc::cough::
Great posts, Amann, they have made me thinking. While I do not like the need draw on real world knowledge to solve the puzzle, as no character in EVE can be expected to possess such knowledge, I am now quite convinced you are on to something right when you speak about the Talocan being involved in sacrifice of people. Not just based on the the lines you draw but also on ingame sources.
First of all there is the description of two Talocan structures found in w-space; the Talocan Exchange Depot and the Talocan Extraction Silo.
Amidst the ruins of this Talocan outpost, the exchange depot looms, its presence foreboding. Judging from the wreckage inside, the depot was either used for imprisonment or cultural exchange; eerily, there seems to be very little difference between the two. Whatever its purpose, this structure is rather prevalent among the outposts, displaying its importance in Talocan society.
This towering structure contains all the basic elements of a regular silo: cavernous storage areas, thick walls, extensive ventilation, etc. Based on the scans of this silo, however, the silo’s previous contents are unknown. The residue from inside reveals nothing known in modern times, or even odd genetic combinations. Whatever its contents, the silo emits an unfamiliar – and uneasy – presence.
But not only this; when the wormholes first opened up, the entity in New Eden most prone to sacrificing humans, the Blood Raiders, claimed to have seen their "Red God" in there (I cannot seem to find the news source for this... strange). Another bit of clue, while poor in source, was the mention of Equilibrium of Mankind to have been the original entity behind Incursions. They too have a habit of sacrificing humans.
Now to some more speculative thoughts; If there is some kind of god/technology hidden in w-space that is driven by sacrificing humans one could think the Talocans would set up a way to be supplied with such. Like slaves... Why not encourage a less technological advanced civilization (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=jun01-03) to do the dirty work of rounding up the people and then collect the harvest later?* I already touched on that subject here (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1358491&page=1#1). And it is still my strong belief the Talocan and the Enheduanni are one and the same. Just take the strong similarity in design between Talocan and Amarr structures, the first thing that struck me when seeing them in w-space.
This put questions to the Takmahls role in this. Likely, the Takmahl were a splinter group of the Talocan. Perhaps the group left behind to supervise the collection of slaves, but something went wrong and the Amarr exterminated them. Or perhaps there was a disagreement. Still, the Blood Raiders seems to be on the path of the Talocan and they have some positive connection with the Takmahl.
And on the topic of rounding up people; is that not Mr. Kuvakei has been doing recently? Will think about that later.
A big open question is why the Talocans were sacrificing people; simple religious beliefs or for science purpose? (it is science-fiction after all).
I am not speculating on Sleepers or on the apparent disease that killed off life in w-space at this stage. I have to focus to get anywhere.
*: I cannot remember/find any source that talks about the Amarr shipping of slaves to satisfy their god. But it is possible that slaves were slowly picked here and there with little to no notice or the Sani Sabik took care of it.
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Perhaps take a glance into the similarities between Tlaloc and Enki and contemplate that even now the Jovians are not a united group.
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Interesting theory, and I actually had looked at those connections before. Then again, I absorbed everything I could regarding Enheduana, Inanna, Gilgamesh, the whole flood myth etc. when I was in high school. That's why when I first saw EVE, and the Amarr, I fell in love with the setting. It was a kind of odd anachronistic mix of modern social commentary and ancient myth on some weird psychedelic Sci-Fi acid trip that just blew my mind.
Now, I doubt the guys who originally came up with the EVE backstory had much in the way of formal literary training of any kind. As I told a friend a few years ago, it's like a computer programmer who played a bit of DnD, a couple elective mythology classes and some political science on the way to realizing his true calling decided to make a new and improved version of Battletech. Not a bad thing, but if you stick to that formula someone's going to connect the dots. Not to mention the fact that much of EVE seems to have been written with a copy of Orson Scott Card's "Guide to Writing Science Fiction and Fantasy" at their computer (and misinterpreted some of the examples as "This is how you do it" instead of "This is how not to do it", but I digress).
So, what does this have to do with the Sleeper mystery?
Simple; forget the names. Forget the symbols. Forget the similarities and correlations. They're honestly meaningless in the end, because they don't answer any of the questions. What does the evidence say?
For me, the story is simple, at least in relation to the Sleepers. The Sleepers were smart. Very smart. If they were indeed a download society, then they would be very smart. They would want to preserve themselves, their society, their way of life. But as a download society, how do they do that? Regardless of whether or not they were a download society, the next point is unchanged; they had the means, motive, and opportunity to set up the following:
A database, with multiple redundancies. A mirror. Not just one mirror, but a network of mirrors. Designed to slowly dismantle their outlying infrastructure, and transfer it deeper and deeper towards the mirrors. They are going to conserve energy. They are, above all, going to want to keep what systems they can activated, with one purpose; continuing to solve whatever problem forced them into their current state, and to defend their legacy.
Now, the funny thing? The Rogue Drones; they operate on similar (though admittedly only at face value) concepts. Is this coincidence, a convergence in the evolutionary process they are following, or is it that they are based on similar technological principles?
That's the story of the Sleepers. Everything else should be noted; everything. The similarities, the crazy theories, absolutely everything.
Why?
Because, silly, this is a journey. Go into sleeper space, walk the path, and find out an old mystery. Find new ones. Explore and evolve.
Now, what I really want to know is this; did they save their "best and brightest"? Is there a user's manual? Are the Jove really connected, or are they as clueless as everyone else?
For that matter, what happened to the "Ten Year Plan" that the Devs touted so long ago, and how much more time do they have in that plan? :bear:
Going back to Orson Scott Card, he also says something in the above mentioned book: some writers wrongly believe that withholding information is the best way to build up tension (tension being the thing you can't get have enough of in a story), but that the key is to only keep one piece of information back: what is going to happen next. Everything else, and I mean everything put out there, must be relevant to the plot or affect the story in some meaningful way. This is why some of the recent "revelations" of the behind-the-scenes happenings in the storyline department at CCP worry me, but at the same time it gives me hope that things are going to progress in a more fluid and dynamic way in the future (though I won't be around to reap the benefits of this as an EVE player).
So, you tell me; in regards to the Sleepers is there too much innuendo and too little information? Is too much being held back of the story? Or is just enough being withheld to keep everyone from guessing the next beat?
Oh, and one more note:
Nietzsche and Kierkegaard: mentioned by Dropbear. Kierkegaard had some interesting ideas on truth, and faith. How does this compare and contrast with Nietzsche and Descartes? What are the implications of these insights on the writings of Ior Labron?
There will (not) be a quiz later. :P
Also, to CCP Dropbear: if you're reading this...
Hahaha, I get the joke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard#Pseudonymous_authorship) now! Intentional or not, quite hilarious. 8)
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The solid evidence from the Mirror and other sources suggest the Sleepers developed pod-like technology which is just about the only evidence I've found of them being an upload society. Further a faction making an organized transfer from organic to infomorphs that doesn't welcome vistors wouldn't leave the lights on and the life-support running. The Sleeper network itself seems far more focused on developing an emergent AI capable of working out a solution to the Jovian Disease using Talocan DNA.
While I do strongly 'feel' that they became infomorphs and left it all behind there isn't much evidence to support it. There is enough to suggest that they didn't actually stay in w-space either way. The drones operate independently, the facilities are falling apart, the network itself is starting to degrade, and then there's the evacuation centres.
It is possible that the sleepers suffered the same fate as the second Jovian empire over in Heaven merely sooner (at least according to the mess that is CCPs dates, it may well be the same time). That they evacuated due to the disease, leaving those showing signs of the disease in stasis. The medical enclave supports the idea of the infected being placed in stasis. Perhaps, being the "humane" creatures the Jove appear to have become after the fall of the first empire (possibly caused by immense guilt and the secret they, the sleepers, and their drones are keeping, but that's another story) they left the diseases victims with a VR playground. Perhaps, since "No one said the Jove were nice" they wire wired into the system designed to find a cure. Either way we might then have a large population of people, most of whom are inflicted with the disease, wired up in pod-like interfaces.
That they didn't stay put seems further reinforced by the presence met by Liandra at the Mirror. This entities emotionless response, lifeless appearance, message, and lack of original representation suggests an encounter with an AI rather than an infomorph. Perhaps those left behind got what they wanted from the network and left. Perhaps this wasn't so much a cure as it was a mutation, or rather virtual mutation, which leads on to speculation regarding the Enheduanni or full on ascension but again this is heading off-course.
Suffice to say if the sleepers became infomorphs I find no evidence to suggest that they remained in w-space. I do however see vast connections to the Jovians beyond the contents of w-space itself from the mission Mysterious Sightings stating that some say the Sleepers are the ancestors of the Jovians to the huge number of technologies they have in common and more.
[Sources available on request, more rambling found here. (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1833.0[/url)
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The only universal message in science fiction: There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently.
;)
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The only universal message in science fiction: There exist minds that think as well as you do, but differently.
;)
Could you be more precise with your meaning? We're all dealing with enough cryptic guessing already. :P
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Well, as they say, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Could a user of sufficiently advanced technology be indistinguishable from a god?
I mean, we can focus on the fact that the symbol for Inanna/Ishtar (the Goddess to whom Enheduanna wrote all those poems), is an eight pointed star; or the fact that she wrote about a personal relationship with her deity....
Or we could look at the Sleeper ruins and see a certain pattern. This pattern could lead us to a chain of events, or multiple interpretations of these events. It would however, point us in some interesting directions. Like, for instance, Enclave Cohort 27. Why is 27 important? Is this information self-referential?
If you're looking at the "Sleeper Mystery", perhaps it is best to start there; to identify the dilemma, and work backwards from there. What's the best way to do that? Look at the patterns that exist, and look at anything that does not fit that pattern. There's more than Cohort 27 that do not fit the pattern.
Like Oruze Osobnyk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_fort).
:twisted:
I guess it depends on if you're a man of faith, or a man of science.
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If you take a peek at the thread I linked you'll find I may have spent a little time doing just that over the last few months.
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If you take a peek at the thread I linked you'll find I may have spent a little time doing just that over the last few months.
Well then, how far have you gotten in defining the problem? If we can't do that, how can we come to a consensus? :P
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If you take a peek at the thread I linked you'll find I may have spent a little time doing just that over the last few months.
Well then, how far have you gotten in defining the problem? If we can't do that, how can we come to a consensus? :P
There's a problem? I thought we were having fun.
There is no one specific question being asked. For me it's akin to archaeology in RL: you dig around, find evidence, speculate, compare, and try to pull together ideas that don't contradict the known evidence. There are some thing with enough backing them to be almost certain, like the Sleepers being the ancestors of the Jovians, while others are less certain.
A major part of that is having fresh eyes look at the evidence to find ideas, links, and errors. They also help in adding weight to those things which do seem almost certain which eventually snowballs into a consensus. Remembering that even then a consensus can be wrong and at any moment an idea, possibly a foundation of many others, can be proven wrong by some new or overlooked piece of evidence.
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Warning: There be links here, Captain!
Something to consider:
How did the Talocan get to W-space? The most likely theory is that they used the same means of arriving there that Capsuleers do: through wormholes. But what if that's not exactly the true process? Taking all of the other theories aside, the simple answers to how the Sleepers are there, why they are there, and when they arrived there have not been truly asked, nor answered.
Mass displacement is mentioned in more than one site, and seems to be a link between Talocan and Sleeper technology. However, the real crux of the matter is in how Talocan and Sleeper technologies, combined, could create some interesting interactions. Let's take this simple, Class 1 Sleeper site;
Phase catalyst node:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_(matter)#Crystal_phases
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalysis#Significance_of_catalysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node_(physics)#Explanation
Let's assume there are certain paths to follow. These paths would have a common thread, would they not? Either in nomenclature or in usage. If you're looking for sleepers, communications would be a good place to start. Signals. The above is just an example of understanding nomenclature, analyzing the clues given in-game, and slowly building a theory based on those observations.
For instance, what is a Phase Catalyst Node?
What if we just stayed out there and never returned to another clone?
What if we could live out there, and build a bright and better world in that space between?
/wild speculation
Now, the only real use for a "Phase Catalyst Node" I can think of would be in a really, really large scale particle accelerator.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_accelerators#Circular_or_cyclic_accelerators
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particle_accelerators#Black_hole_production_and_public_safety_concerns
Black holes, ambient radiation, and electron volts (eV); oh my!
Now, let's make a further jump in logic; do we have irrefutable evidence that it was Sleepers and Talocan who used the ruins we see in W-space? What if the sites were simply transported there, and used for other purposes? As I said, there is interesting implications for scientific study if you combine Talocan and Sleeper technology with the research done on the EVE Gate and what we know of the Terran technology discovered by Jamyl's lackeys.
What does it all mean? Well, if you are trying to understand superstring theory, and the underlying structure of the universe, what better way than to "shine a light on it"? Now, look at the information stored in the Sleeper drones; if you were an astrophysicist, and wanting to prove that, oh, I don't know - there was indeed a big bang, that everything in the universe is moving apart, or that Entropy was taking a greater toll on the universe than previously thought - the types of measurements, and the breadth and depth of those measurements, in Sleeper drones would be invaluable.
There's also some interesting possibilities in regards to a certain uncertainty principle, but well... that's not really important. ;) Let's take the above as a hypothesis; that the Sleeper drones and Talocan structures, combined, are being used as a huge laboratory. Who would use such a laboratory, and for what purpose? 8)
Now, back to science and religion; how would a man of faith and a man of science differ in their interpretations of the consequences of knowing the answer to "life, the universe, and everything"?
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How did the Talocan get to W-space?
Occams razor suggests that the garrison sites containing spatial rifts show the Talocan garrisoning spatial rifts which they entered w-space through and were concerned about other following. This is supported by static gates being present at all known Talocan outposts, if they had mastered wormhole technology they wouldn't have required the gates. Additionally the wormholes we have now represent what appears to be thousands of years of isogen-5 gathering.
As to the presence of the Sleepers it would seem they are there to study the Talocan and work on the Jovian Disease. The two possibly being related given the evidence hinting towards Talocan Jovian connections. It is likely they arrived there through discoveries made in k-space, records from the time of that empire, or via the Yan Jungs Threaded Waypoint Map.
Mass displacement is mentioned in more than one site, and seems to be a link between Talocan and Sleeper technology.
It is "Matter-Displacment" and it mentioned one, the 'Strange Energy Readings' Sleeper site. Teleportation is a science the Jovians attempted to recover. Since the Sleepers are almost definitely the second Jovian empire I don't see how they had this technology. The only other known example of functional teleportation is the mention in Theodicy of The Order's 'signature' tech being non-linear teleportation. On the other hand this example may not represent a deliberate matter-displacement or the Jove may have finally mastered teleportation. Notably the Jovians cloaked Terran wrecks around the EVE Gate and it should be asked why the Talocan vessels are gutted and why the rest of us haven't stumbled upon the Yan Jung relics found there by the Minmatar. It should be noted that Anoikis hints the Jovians still have a presence in w-space.
I don't understand where you are drawing the link between the Phase Catalyst Node and particle acceleration from, could you clarify? To me the name suggests a change of phase based on catalysis. Possibly linked to stars, the Thermodynamic Catalysts, isogen-5, and the large number of stellar anomalies in w-space. Not that I feel this is a solid theory either given the lack of corroborating evidence.
What if the sites were simply transported there, and used for other purposes?
Interesting theory but I find no evidence to support it or warrant further study and so many other lines of examination remain open.
Now, look at the information stored in the Sleeper drones;
We have an Ancient Coordinates Database, which is notably not called a Sleeper Coordinates Database, equipment related to advanced interstellar travel, and the Sleeper Data Library. This hints that the Sleepers were looking for, or found, something out there. Possibly as simple as having to hunt down the other ancient sites given the lack of a functional gate-network, possibly as complex as hunting for Terra or incoming Terrans taking the long route to New Eden. As interesting as this all is my personal method is to look through the evidence for connections (and each look reveals something new) rather than speculate and try to make existing evidence fit.
Let's take the above as a hypothesis; that the Sleeper drones and Talocan structures, combined, are being used as a huge laboratory.
I see evidence of the Sleepers studying the Talocan but no evidence of Talocan scientific structures. Not that I'm saying they aren't there, merely that if they are part of the mystery it would be rather cruel for CCP to state that all the pieces are there and then have it hinge on this essential data. I see labs devoted to studies on many topics, from the Archive Terminal to almost every section of the Mirror nothing suggests research on pure theoretical physics, the closest we have are the practical applications found in the Oruze Enclave.
how would a man of faith and a man of science differ in their interpretations of the consequences of knowing the answer to "life, the universe, and everything"?
The Truth Serum and Book of Emptiness suggest that in both cases knowing the answer would be a bad thing, leading to detachment or the philosophical equivalent of a technological singularity. There is a strong theme in Jovian poetry that there is such a thing as too much Truth.
Please don't take these comments as being confrontational. It appears we have vastly differing styles of investigation. Mine is deliberate but, admittedly, very slow. One might even say cautious. Part of me has a strong sense that you or someone who thinks like you will solve this mystery long before those who think like me are able to 'prove' it.
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I have seen Referance to Anoikis a Few times - I don't remember reading a Chronical called that. Can anyone provide a Link to this article, Document, or story.
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http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=31-05-10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anoikis
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Wow, a Chron I apperently missed.
Good read. Kinda begs the question - What did they know that we havn't sorted out yet?
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Good read. Kinda begs the question - What did they know that we havn't sorted out yet?
Something worth "obfuscating".
Please don't take these comments as being confrontational.
Heh, don't worry about it. ;)
I don't understand where you are drawing the link between the Phase Catalyst Node and particle acceleration from, could you clarify? To me the name suggests a change of phase based on catalysis. Possibly linked to stars, the Thermodynamic Catalysts, isogen-5, and the large number of stellar anomalies in w-space. Not that I feel this is a solid theory either given the lack of corroborating evidence.
Well, where I get the idea of a particle accelerator is very, very complicated to explain.
First, let's look at why a Node would be important. Instead of going step-by-step, I'll start by linking the relevant articles in relation to Nodes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Node_(networking)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_topology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay_network
Now, if you are working within a network, why would you need a phase catalyst? Let's look at the following:
We have Magnetic sites, and Radar sites:
Look at the progression. Jowen's documents on eve-files helped me a LOT here. Electronic interference. The Mirror? Electronic signals. All in deadspace pockets.
So, what could this mean? Well, from the Hyperbole Nexus, we know that in New Eden there exists areas that echo in other, distant areas in New Eden. This was discovered, initially, by the Amarrians. What if they were not the first to stumble upon this? We also know that the Sleepers used fluid routers; would they need to use such a site?
They wouldn't, in my opinion, unless the fluid routers are used by the security system alone. It wouldn't be used for navigation, or would it?
http://www.ion.org/search/view_abstract.cfm?jp=p&idno=6514
http://www.ion.org/search/view_abstract.cfm?jp=j&idno=826
7.0 Modulation Navigation Network
We do have knowledge of one race that could potentially understand the underlying mechanics and uses of such sites: The Talocan. Now, this is where I theorize the link between Sleepers and Talocan begins.
Ancient Acceleration Gates.
Talocan Static Gates.
The Polestars could be one part of the navigation network. The Static Gates, signal repeaters. Trinary Hub... a navigation beacon (Trinary Star) used for establishing navigational constants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_system#Triple
Now, I normally wouldn't have touched upon this, aside from something I watched on Star Trek way back when Enterprise was still on; using Pulsar emissions as stellar constants for navigation. ;) So, why would an Astrophysicist be needed to go into a new, unexplored star system, hmm? Simple:
"The password, the one she entered. The incorrect string?"
"I will put aside any questions I have about how you would have access to such a thing and ask you to come to the point."
"It's a locus."
Now, positional data in New Eden is (as far as I have determined) partially determined by in-system transmissions from stargates. As there are no stargates in W-space, the logical choice for determining location would be an Astrophysicist. The little (subtle) jab is that there are few Astrophysicists that are Capsuleers (heh, all Astrophysicists on the forums hold your hand up, please).
So, why would the Sleeper drones need up-to-date star charts, and memorized star locations? ;) If they have these, wouldn't it be easy to jump to different star systems?
Particle Accelerators? Why do you... Oh, good of you to ask! What do particle accelerators have to do with signals and nodes? Why are you asking... I brought it up? Well of course I brought it up!
/Prof. Farnsworth moment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7osGfFTQVtU&feature=related)
What do you do with energy sent along a communications line when it reaches the end of the line? If you want to conserve energy, you store it; but how do you store energy like that?
http://www.springerlink.com/content/11014084t5511385/
Now, if Jamyl's weapon had an effect on the EVE Gate, and an explosion of the same material used to fuel said weapon caused wormholes...
...could it not be conjectured that the source of the energy used in Jamyl's weapon could be stored somewhere? Could that storage area be the EVE Gate itself?
1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies
So, going on the "particle accelerator" theorem, what does an Acceleration Gate do? By it's very nature it breaks some fundamental laws of physics that normally hold for accelerated objects by accelerating a craft past the speed of light. It also does so by accelerating a ship into a deadspace pocket.
If you want to establish navigational constants in real-time across interstellar distances, how do you do it? What if your fluid routers are unreliable for such calculations?
Why, I've asked myself that exact same question countless times. Uh do what? I just answered that question? Don't be a fool, man, I just thought of that question right now!
/Farnsworth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5mKXg4p7LY&NR=1)
On to Particle Accelerators though.
Static Gates, Acceleration Gates, Hypereuclidean Manifolds... It all creates a sort of strange loop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_loop). It's possible to understand the whole, and argue the ends, without fully understanding the means; however, in this particular case, looking at each level of the "problem" brings up more questions. With the "clues" being spread out across New Eden, it tells a wider story. You can answer the questions, but they are not all related to Sleepers. they aren't all related to Talocan. They relate to both in an odd way, but not necessarily.
1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies
I mean, it's all there. Now, what about the Sleepers?
"As an example of why the reductionist approach fails, consider the function of one cell within a multicellular organism. Even if we understand the cell's function, that does not mean we fully understand the organism's physiology. After all, the activity of each cell is affected by the activity of other cells in the tissues, organs, and organ systems within the organism. The cell is thus no longer in isolation, and its integration into a system provides that system with emergent properties (Novikoff, 1945). (http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/biological-complexity-and-integrative-levels-of-organization-468)"
Taken singularly, the sites in Sleeper space do not show any particular emergent behavior. Add in other elements -Sleeper ships, turrets, environment- emergent properties appear. A story unfolds, a story that other pieces of the puzzle can further explain.
TL;DR: Sleeper sites, Talocan sites, and W-space in general were (in my opinion) designed with a Top-down, bottom-up construction in mind; why not approach the problem from that perspective? It's a lot easier and does not require outside information (aside from determining nomenclature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_nomenclature)).
Now, what is this about Particle Accelerators? This idea intrigues me.
/Unrelated (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifsWoiQrYes&feature=related)
:bear:
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:EDIT:
I am slow and tired, Lectures are mind numbing..
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:EDIT:
I am slow and tired, Lectures are mind numbing..
Don't worry:
It may not make sense at first.
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Don't worry:
It may not make sense at first.
I enjoy reading about your ideas/theories/thoughts on the W-space, Sleepers, and the Talocon;
But when you do this, it makes my head hurt even more then your wall-of-text.
:bash:
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I'm pretty much waiting for a summary myself. :s
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In short:
Archive Enclave: Directory
1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies
Who would have the information to make use of this? It wouldn't be a single person. It would be a group of people. A group of people with a common interest in keeping things secret. People that were intelligent, well educated, and experienced in keeping secrets.
Like, say, graduates of a certain type of school.
Keep in mind that Labron and his kind probably aren't the kind to gloat, either, meaning he could just as easily lament the "only rational conclusion." He is a teacher too, of wildly successful people, right? The sorts you see leading research projects and running around the Senate, one might imagine...
Maybe that is a thought Labron imparts to his students, before they head out into the world and go about their success and profit. A lesson about why some illusions need to be maintained. I leave you with that thought.
..and this vague suggestion: If the idea of the wildly successful graduate piqued your interest, consider why someone is concerned that someone else was chosen for a task, and what that means.
So, going back to something said a long, long time ago by our dear Dropbear: It would either take a genius, or the collected effort of a group of players in order to solve the "mystery", a mystery "as old as EVE itself".
Archive Enclave: Directory
1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies
The answer is kind of uh...
...in plain sight.
;)
Now, if you know the answer, what is the question? :lol: (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=sep04)
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The answer is kind of uh...
...in plain sight.
It is? Perhaps my patience is low due to the huge amount of effort I've put into decrypting CCPs puzzles lately but I really would rather have a simple, direct, answer. Preferably one that doesn't require me to spend hours wading through links. Links are good to support statements as truth if their validity is likely to be questioned but it's very beneficial to the reader if the author makes the actual statement and then gives a citation.
Your (obvious now it's been pointed out to me /teh dumb) idea that the Talocan Polestar is related to navigation is potentially useful but, without trawling through all of your linked data, that was the only useful, evidence based, idea I managed to get from all this.
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I gave my theory on the entire Jove/Capsuleer arc in a couple of sentences.
I understand that these other ideas may not be as simple, but I wish they could be condensed somewhat. Reading for 20 minutes about something that may be a worthless theory would be tiring, and I preemptively avoid it nowadays (*bittervet*).
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It is? Perhaps my patience is low due to the huge amount of effort I've put into decrypting CCPs puzzles lately but I really would rather have a simple, direct, answer. Preferably one that doesn't require me to spend hours wading through links. Links are good to support statements as truth if their validity is likely to be questioned but it's very beneficial to the reader if the author makes the actual statement and then gives a citation.
Point taken. ;)
Your (obvious now it's been pointed out to me /teh dumb) idea that the Talocan Polestar is related to navigation is potentially useful but, without trawling through all of your linked data, that was the only useful, evidence based, idea I managed to get from all this.
1.
Polestars for navigation, Sleeper drones for coordination/surveillance/security. Deadspace pockets are created by neutrino...
...naw, that one's too scientific. I'd hate to have to do another lecture that no one would read. ;) It would explain the "particle accelerator" theory, but I don't think anyone cares. :mad:
EDIT: As well as Jamyl's Superweapon, but yeah... not the right time. ;)
2.
"Extremely successful students". Students of what? SoCT schools. Like Dagan, from The Blood-Stained Stars. He was a tutor, with access to sensitive information.
From there, we have the real implication of what is in The Mirror; archived information on the EVE Gate, Terran Artifacts, Talocan Technology... everything that one would need to take full advantage of Sleeper and Talocan sites in W-space.
3.
This leads to why "someone" would be concerned with another "someone" being chosen for a task. Now, if we make the jump in logic that the SoCT is the "someone concerned", and someone who has links to the Sisters of EVE as the "chosen one", things start to make clearer sense. There are possible considerations beyond this, but they aren't important to the main idea I'm trying to express.
Now, we have the implication at the end of TEA that the EVE Gate is "not what people think it is". At one point it was a wormhole; it is no longer "open", yet energy still courses through it. Energy that, in one chronicle, is linked to Jamyl's Superweapon, via the strange substance that fueled it; Isogen-5.
4.
This is where we get the odd conundrum. Information on the weapon led to the discovery of Isogen-5 caches. It was the Sisters of EVE that made the discovery, but it was the SoCT that knew how to control the keepers of the cache; the Rogue Drones.
Here's where things get fishy; how did the SoCT know how to reset the drones, unless they had a hand in creating them? 8) As others have pointed out countless times, it was multiple corporations doing different research that let the "demon out of the box". Now, if this is true, how could the SoCT do this, unless they had a hand in it?
"Students that would be in charge of research projects" ;)
5.
As "Hellgremlin" (I think?) said somewhere, the Oruze Construct looks a lot like a certain design by the SoCT. They know how to affect drones. Someone knew that there would need to be a quarantine on technology brought back, and someone knew how to integrate said technology into New Eden ships. It would have to be someone who knew a lot about engineering, a lot about fullerenes, and a lot about Sleeper systems and New Eden systems in general.
Now, it is not likely that this someone is a single individual. It is most likely a collection of individuals. Individuals with common backgrounds, yet diverse skills. Individuals trained to recognize particular situations and be able to act according to certain protocols.
The only logical conclusion would be students of the SoCT. More accurately, individuals well placed within corporations and governments that could easily be manipulated by the right people at the right place at the right time. I'm not talking about a conspiracy per se; simply individuals who are talented, intelligent, and have influence in their chosen profession, and are conditioned to do what is in the best interest of all.
So, what could they be conditioned to hide? What could they be conditioned to train individuals to cover up? What is the "only rational conclusion"?
Well now, we get back to the heart of the matter: Descartes. The only rational conclusion, if there is no great "deceiver", is that we are the ones who are imprisoning ourselves. Metaphorically, literally, figuratively... existentially.
:twisted:
Finally, is this all misdirection? Possibly. It may not be an organized conspiracy, it could just be an emergent pattern. Enough people knowing just enough to try and keep chaos from engulfing humanity once again, and taking whatever means necessary to make certain they don't fail.
Not if we intervene and provide for them what convincingly appears to be the most promising final applications of any potential studies. This hints at precisely the point we must illuminate. When framed as a concern for the balance of power between the empires and the capsuleers, our interests will appear far more congruent with theirs, and our actions will remain understandable. The empires can be made to quickly appreciate how little control over these new areas they will have, and from there, it will be simple to assist each of them in coordinating access to components we identify as key. They will recognize it as the only opportunity any of them have for strategic equality. None will refuse.
In Summary:
The EVE Gate is important. What is in W-space is important. Sleepers and Talocan structures are part of a single puzzle. The puzzle is linked to the EVE Gate. The EVE Gate is not what it seems to be. The SoCT and the Sisters of EVE know the big secret; we are the "great deceivers". We are our greatest enemy. If this is true, how do they know this?
Archive Enclave: Directory
1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies
It's all there, man! I could go into potential Jove connections, Enheduanni, and the meaning of Virtual Kinetics... but in the end, it all comes down to what mystery you're talking about, and whether or not there really is a consistent vision as to what is going on in EVE's storyline.
Final Note:
SSoE and SCT = bickering siblings. :P
P.S.: Questions, comments, revelations?
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I'm just glad you laid your cards on the table (though I'd read between the lines on the SoCT/SoE stuff earlier). :)
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I'm just glad you laid your cards on the table (though I'd read between the lines on the SoCT/SoE stuff earlier). :)
A lot of it is fairly obvious, but you really have to know what to look for. The SOE/SOCT thing is pretty much all through the chronicles. Jamyl's Superweapon is pretty much the key to understanding what's going on with the Wormholes and the EVE Gate, and I didn't really understand why until I took a good look at the Sleeper and Talocan sites.
The only real question I have is if the Deadspace pockets are a consequence, or the cause... :ugh: I have a feeling more pieces will fall into place if I can deduce that sequence.
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I gave my theory on the entire Jove/Capsuleer arc in a couple of sentences. I understand that these other ideas may not be as simple, but I wish they could be condensed somewhat. Reading for 20 minutes about something that may be a worthless theory would be tiring, and I preemptively avoid it nowadays (*bittervet*).
I share your point of view and I'm well aware my own work needs to be condensed for general consumtion but for now that would be a wasted effort as I'm still collecting data, making connections, and gathering contributions (along with having the hungrier section of the community do an idiot check on my ideas).
Details
Nice set of connections. As mentioned the SCT vs SoE stuff is probably common knowledge already but you bring it back into focus. You might also want to note (or remind people while explaining your ideas) the many other Rogue Drone connections to the Jovians such as their constructing Jovian stations (http://www.mgln.org/wh/jove/) and using holographic representations (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Drone_Mind) of Jove to communicate and others.
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By the way, does anyone know the name of Otro Gariushi's father? Just curious.
EDIT: Also, I know who The Broker is.
EDIT 2: Roden.
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Details
Nice set of connections. As mentioned the SCT vs SoE stuff is probably common knowledge already but you bring it back into focus. You might also want to note (or remind people while explaining your ideas) the many other Rogue Drone connections to the Jovians such as their constructing Jovian stations (http://www.mgln.org/wh/jove/) and using holographic representations (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Drone_Mind) of Jove to communicate and others.
Well now, I have to come clean on something. I have debated and fought and pondered about whether or not I wanted to lay it all on the line. In my previous posts, I've omitted a very important piece of evidence, in the hopes that others would mention it, and possibly point out the only logical conclusion. So, here it goes:
There is no link between the Jove and the Rogue Drones, at least not directly.
Now, let's look at something for a moment. There is one group of individuals, not necessarily Jove, that have shown an understanding of Rogue Drones. These individuals have links to a certain pirate group that a certain deceased Megacorp CEO was formerly a part of. Further, he used non-rogue versions of said drones in order to synthesize a cure for a certain disease.
Yes, I am talking about the Society of Conscious Thought. Now, I know what you're thinking; they're Jovian! I would actually beg to differ. The Jove are still suffering from the Jovian Disease. The Jove also have strict non-interference laws; would the one group that is highly connected to other humans in New Eden be exempt? I would think not; they would most likely be limited to available technology. Which is why this theory makes the most sense. Available technology.
In their remote abodes the Society has built up mini-societies emphasizing self-sufficiency; a trait strong among the Jovians. These sprawling places, often resembling huge fortresses, house everything from living quarters and food-growing facilities to laboratories and libraries. Each enclave, called a kitz, is a separate entity, but communication between kitzes is frequent.
and
Each kitz maintains a school for educating their members in the scholarly or scientific fields.
A. W-space is far from human habitation.
B. The nomenclature is based around a "fortress" theme.
C. There are laboratories and libraries.
D. There are living areas.
E. There's even mention of classrooms.
Need I go on?
So, we have the final piece that really puts everything into focus. It explains a need for a quarantine, a meaning for evacuation sites and everything included in that, and both Talocan and Sleeper sites fitting the pattern. It explains the discussion at the end of Anoikis.
On the Talocan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talos In the Cretan dialect, Talos meant "The Sun". Talocan sites have "Polestars". The Talocan were migratory.
What does it all mean?
Think of this in context of my previous posts. What is the Society interested in?
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This thread is awesome.
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Now, I have kept only glancing at this thread, but Otro Gariushi's father appears briefly in Ruthless. His name is Vilamo Gariushi, and he's a pusher for the Guristas after he was laid off by the then-rather-Practical Ishukone in Drenali system (C8-CHY, in Fade - and most surprisingly, planet seven is an ice planet, just like it is in Ruthless).
[spoiler]And yes, the AI guarding the Insorum factory in UBX-CC is named VILAMO.[/spoiler]
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More stuffs.
I've always made a point of stating Jovian rather than Jovian Directorate or SCT. The Sleeper/Society connections are evident but you've gotten me looking at the classrooms and displays in a new light.
Why don't you lay your cards on the table as the rest of us have?
[EDIT: Spelling]
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Right so if the SoCT have partial Control over the Rogue Drones (and this does make sense becasue someone with alot of high level access to the stargate system had to over ride some of the gates just before the drone regions opened, Read the docs for it) Is this them attempting to Build a working model to help understand the sleepers so that they can in turn control them? Is the Talocan tech really that important?
I think there is still alot of this puzzle we don't have matched up yet.
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Why don't you lay your cards on the table as the rest of us have?
That is exactly what I am attempting to do, but perhaps I need to slow down a bit more.
Right so if the SoCT have partial Control over the Rogue Drones (and this does make sense becasue someone with alot of high level access to the stargate system had to over ride some of the gates just before the drone regions opened, Read the docs for it) Is this them attempting to Build a working model to help understand the sleepers so that they can in turn control them?
I think maybe I'm getting ahead of myself in this whole... whatever this thing I'm doing is. You have to understand, I'm kind of a hoarder. I hoard information. I love it. It's my pleasure. I love seeing patterns, but translating the patterns I see into coherent thoughts that others can understand isn't something I usually even attempt.
You see, my mind works really oddly. That's not always a good thing, like for instance right now.
Is the Talocan tech really that important?
By itself? Of course not. Taken together with the Sleeper tech? Of course it is.
Now, to show my work (always had a problem with that in school. :P)
Archive Enclave: Directory
1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies
Libraries.
Communications Enclave: Directory
1.0 - 5.1 Microvirtual Transmission Sensors
5.2 - 5.5 Sensor Backup Systems
6.0 Operation Servers
7.0 Proliferation News Network Studios
8.0 Detransmission Clusters
Means of keeping in contact with other kitz.
Medical Enclave: Directory
1.0 Emergency
2.0-2.8 Triage
2.9 Stasis
3.0 Quarantine Sector A
4.0 Quarantine Sector B
5.0-9.2 Quarantine Sector C
9.3 Quarantine Sector X
If this is a Jove kitz, then quarantining sufferers of the Jovian Disease would be necessary.
Oruze Enclave: Directory
1.0 Solar Engineering
1.1 Photoelectrical Engineering
1.2 Thermovoltaics
1.3 Residential
1.4 Residential
Housing.
Research Enclave – Biogenetics: Directory
1.0-3.2 Animal Cryogenetic Research Laboratories
3.3-3.8 Holding Pens
4.0-6.0 De-animation Genealogy Research Library
7.0-8.0 Student Classrooms
9.0 Human Cryogenetic Applications
Research Enclave – Theoretical Genetics: Directory
1.0 Interdigital Neural Activity Laboratories
2.0 Multiple-Ancestry Research
3.0 Statistical Proliferation Archive
4.0 Datagenesis Procedures
5.0- 8.0 Backup Servers
9.0 Mixed Intelligence Displays
Research Enclave – Virtual Genetics: Directory
1.0 Neurodegenerative Case Studies
2.0 Non-natural Teleology
3.0-4.7 Test Clinics
4.8 Bioinformatics Archive
4.9 Virtual Mutation
5.0-9.8 Emergent Systems Design Laboratories
Laboratories and Classrooms
Security Enclave: Directory
1.0 Virtual Kinetic Research
2.0 Artificial Intelligence Perpetuation Technology
3.0-5.0 Interstellar Surveillance Task Force
6.0 Anti-Thermocryogenesis Research and Implementation
7.0 Modulation Navigation Network
This one is also informative. Giggity! Hah, seriously though, transportation and security.
In short, everything you'd need to be self-sufficient in Sleeper space. It fits the pattern of a kitz. The Society has proven that they are interested in Terran artifacts, have extensive knowledge of AI and their ex-members show a grasp of clandestine operations.
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so a Previous Incarnation of the SoCT = Sleepers?
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If the SCT have been controlling the drones then why did the Blood Raiders need to apply an SCT hack to subvert them. Further the drones enslaved by this promptly committed suicide so the SCT which to me explains why the SCT wouldn't have employed the technique en-mass. Lastly if they had control of the drones why were they interested in obtaining Jamyl's superweapon which is already parked at one of "their" facilities.
Then we have w-space being intended for later SCT use. Why the drones there stated to be protecting Sleeper information, even hinted to be present inside the structures, the intent seems to be to keep others from learning about something the Sleepers, and the Directorate today,believe should be left alone. The SCT despite their thirst for knowledge may support hiding this secret given their links to Gorda Hoje, who wrote Truth serum and without whom the organization would never have been founded, and the founder Ior Labron having written a lamentation of sorts found in the Curse region description.
Then for both we have the SCT's very short history and it's having been founded by the student of a philanthropist generally considered absurd, neither of which seem to fit with an ancient Sleeper plan and the build-up of isogen-5 over millenia. I'm not saying the SCT isn't involved in either but their involvement must have come later having not been so much as movement or an idea until a few students began taking Hoje seriously.
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Having said this it does appear the HyCon agenda is working to opposing goals, their name and educational methods betraying them despite their apparently destroying the Book of Emptiness. It is possible Lianda has been sent by them in the hope of obtaining information regarding ascension.
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1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_series
On one hand, unrelated; on the other, it brought up the question that forced me to re-evaluate the information in The Mirror a few months ago. Specifically:
Why would someone store the information that is available within The Mirror, as well as keep such sites secret?
2. http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=arc&aid=17
The Society couldn't possibly have kept things secret without some high-level help. Anoikis pretty much states exactly this.
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha
Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.
4. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=469526&page=1
An old story of mine. :P
In Summary:
Who is using "The Mirror", and for what purpose? :D
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Answers as mysterious as the mystery itself.
I'm sorry, I really don't have the time to decode your posts, read through your links, and ensure I thoroughly comprehend them, to get at what may or may not be your actual meaning. Could you please make your statements more plainly.
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Answers as mysterious as the mystery itself.
I'm sorry, I really don't have the time to decode your posts, read through your links, and ensure I thoroughly comprehend them, to get at what may or may not be your actual meaning. Could you please make your statements more plainly.
You clearly haven't known Amann very long, have you?
To answer what I think he's driving at (and Amann poek me if I'm going off in completely incorrect directions.
Why would someone store the information that is available within The Mirror, as well as keep such sites secret?
the answer to this, is obvious, that they aren't confident in its long term maintenance in other areas. I'm going off the theory that the mirror is a sort of backup, and its data is mirrored onto other sites as the need arises, a central repository for the kitz out of which outlying datacentres are constructed. Its the hub, if you will. What were they studying? Everything the SOCT was studying, because they were the SOCT. And Amann is right, they couldn't have kept WH space a secret for as long as they did, and when they finally got out, they would have needed high level connections to hold it down further. Frankly, they needed eyes everywhere. They needed CONCORD.
Something to consider is that both the rogue drones and the sleepers really aren't that old in terms of time around. And they seemed to be working for a purpose contrary to that of what the end of the world series seems to point out. Why is there a need to use the blooders to get the superweapon, if they already had it parked in their base? This is where I think we see the beginnings of the Sansha resurgance.
So the answer to who is using the mirror...well, at a guess, Sansha Kuvakei
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Honestly, Sansha is probably a latecomer to this. I think that, at least to begin, the Sansha and Sleeper storylines were not connected (though they might have become so later on).
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The Foundation Series of Books written by Asimov put forward the premis that everything on a broad wide view can be predicted via math, and that this secretive group of humans and robots are guiding humankind along this path for the most optimal results for everyone involved.
Within this group is a 2nd even more secret group that in the event that the primary group was discovered and disbanded/destroyed/what ever else would still allow for the over all grand plan to be followed.
And Within that group is a Single Robot that semi-self created and accepted the 0th Law of Robotics.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_robotics#Zeroth_Law_added) that prevents humanity from coming to over all harm by action or inaction.
So What I'm thinking is that the SoCT is the OVer all Main Group that is just now being discovered for their hand in guiding humanity along a specific path, the Mirror may be the first signs of a smaller group in the first group set in place as a backup and we discovered it as well. This leads to Who or What is that 3rd group over seeing the other 2?
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So what does Enlil Bel (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=LostThatBet1) have to do with it all?
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CREEPIEST. MISSION. EVAR.
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CREEPIEST. MISSION. EVAR.
AND AWESOMEST.
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My job here is done. ;)
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I refuse to play your game! I shall return to ignoring the entire arcane metaplot!
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Ask yourself how this will help you get more exotic dancers.
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I refuse to play your game! I shall return to ignoring the entire arcane metaplot!
What's Arcane? SoCT is afraid they'll get caught with their hand in the cookie jar (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=19-11-07b) yet again. What's arcane about that? It's human nature; I did something wrong, I don't want to get caught, let's hide it all.
CCP? They're just towing a line, throwing in misdirection, and keeping the story interesting. Well they were at least.
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I refuse to believe that CCP would be awesome on purpose.
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Too many 'maybe's and 'perhaps' strung together throughout this thread. Now we're atop a giant tower of supposition.
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What about EoM? Weren't they slated to be the big bad before the Sansha? How do they fit with SoE and SoCT?
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What about EoM? Weren't they slated to be the big bad before the Sansha? How do they fit with SoE and SoCT?
If I recall correctly, PF for the EoM states that they learned "something" about the EVE Gate that turned them from good Amarrian choir boys into the "Death for Everybody!" terrorists we all know and love.
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Too many 'maybe's and 'perhaps' strung together throughout this thread. Now we're atop a giant tower of supposition.
This.
As much as it ties things together to have it all be a grand conspiracy I have two problems with this.
It's not as all-involving a "conspiracy" as you're getting at there, although perhaps the implications are`without saying too much.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1314015/author/CCP#2 (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1314015/author/CCP#2)
And Occams Razor suggesting the reason it's all abandoned there is that there was an outbreak (quarantine area site) and an evacuation (evacuation centre site). I currently believe the SCT want their hands on the Sleeper data and the only reason that would be a concern is if it were data they are not supposed to have. Tying that in with the Hyper-Consciousness Agenda, their association with the Book of Emptiness, and Jovian opposition to the Order, all seems to point to one thing: Ascension. But note that this is apt to be wrong and my ideas "evolve" almost every time I look through the information we have. Consider it a simple alternative to a highly complex idea.
[Post was going to be longer but RL calls]
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What about EoM? Weren't they slated to be the big bad before the Sansha? How do they fit with SoE and SoCT?
If I recall correctly, PF for the EoM states that they learned "something" about the EVE Gate that turned them from good Amarrian choir boys into the "Death for Everybody!" terrorists we all know and love.
Yups.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Equilibrium_of_Mankind (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Equilibrium_of_Mankind)
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What about EoM? Weren't they slated to be the big bad before the Sansha? How do they fit with SoE and SoCT?
If I recall correctly, PF for the EoM states that they learned "something" about the EVE Gate that turned them from good Amarrian choir boys into the "Death for Everybody!" terrorists we all know and love.
Yups.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Equilibrium_of_Mankind (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Equilibrium_of_Mankind)
Makes me wonder what they found out....
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What about EoM? Weren't they slated to be the big bad before the Sansha? How do they fit with SoE and SoCT?
If I recall correctly, PF for the EoM states that they learned "something" about the EVE Gate that turned them from good Amarrian choir boys into the "Death for Everybody!" terrorists we all know and love.
Yups.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Equilibrium_of_Mankind (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Equilibrium_of_Mankind)
Makes me wonder what they found out....
something that the SOCT is going through a lot of trouble to keep a secret. Something revealed by wormhole space. If we know where to look.
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something that the SOCT is going through a lot of trouble to keep a secret. Something revealed by wormhole space. If we know where to look.
The funny thing? They don't have to do a thing when all is said and done. The conversation in Anoikis is quite accurate. However:
(The End of the World series; not going to link all those directly)
The Vitrauze Project (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=13-07-09)
Anoikis (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=31-05-10)
Depth of Field (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=01-06-09)
Ante (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=19-04-10)
Look at everything I've posted as the groundwork. The real story is in the four chronicles linked above and End of the World; read them in that order. Or, better yet, in reverse order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_chronology), and then work your way back. You might even want to work in Blind Auction.
As to a 'Grand Conspiracy'? No. There isn't one. It's a group of people working towards congruous goals trying to cover their tracks and acting towards their own advantage. Everyone trying to outmaneuver everyone else. The SoE, Syndicate, SCT, Amarr...
...I never assume a conspiracy when human nature more than explains most patterns of complicity as they emerge. So if we're using Occam's Razor as a measuring rod, my best guess would be to go in reverse order with the chronicles above and work back from there. It's the most logical way to go about it, wouldn't you agree? From there, once you understand the New Eden side, look at the W-space side.
I think that everything can be answered rather succinctly by working that method. All the evidence is there, and to be fair I'm not even playing the game anymore! I'm not invested in the answer one way or the other. I just find it to be a fascinating little mystery. :)
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Amann, ready to come back and do some RP with us? ;)
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I agree that you definitely should. Maybe try making an entirely new character, unrelated to Nikiruu or Amann or any of that shenanigans, and just try to have fun in a different way.
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Honestly I havn't read the whole thread, but I don't think this has been menctioned before. Not a solution, but a piece or two I think.
Ishukone knows something about this, to the point they have been in a wormhole system before anyone else, probably just once, and certain high placed people know this.
Reason/Speculation:
The chrons Anoikis, Depth of Field, and Ante that Amann linked point to this, saying that Ishukone has experience, or would want data from wormhole systems. This implies that Ishukone knows something about it, but that they also want to know more, so whatever access they had gave them a taste for something there and then cut off.
Ishukone has been known to be able to control Rogue Drones to the point of getting permission from a Rogue Drone hive to access the Insorum in TEA. Later, the Blood Raiders gained more absolute access to a Rogue Drone facility processing Isogen-5 (in the End of the World series). This implies that Isogen-5 and Insorum were both made by the Rogue Drones and stored for some reason, and that, with the link between Isogen-5 and wormholes, that Rogue Drones are related somehow to the Sleepers. Therefore, a bit shaky, but you can follow the chain that Ishukone might know about Sleepers and the wormholes.
Second piece:
CreoDron and the Sisters of Eve/Serps both found out about Wormholes after Ishukone, but I think knew something about them before they opened up for everyone.
Reason/Speculation:
Once wormholes open up, these two seem very quick off the mark to rush into them, though they seem to not know exactly what they are looking for, see the gift shuttle and Anoikis. The shuttle was released to quickly and to purpose built for wormhole exploration and getting all that data back to SOE/Serps for them to not have known anything. CreoDron was similary quick to jump in from Anoikis. This implies they knew something good was there, something worth being ready for a chance. Maybe they found out something from Ishukone. Also, someone told the Blood Raiders, and Ishukone doesn't strike me as a prime suspect for that, so the more people that know means the more people to tell them.
Just those two pieces, but hopefully someone else can build on them.
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In my opinion rogues drones were not creating the isogen 5 but only gathering it. It is mentionned that a lot of hidden stashes of isogen 5 in New Eden detonated at the same time when Jamyl superabaddonofd00m exploded. I suppose, knowing that the SCT gave to the blooder a code to control the rogue drones surrounding the abaddon, and that the SCT was not able to get there in person according to the text, they might have sent the drones to cover the Abaddon and feed it with isogen 5. All they needed was someone to pick up the ship and bring it to Roua.
So I think the isogen 5 stashes were probably a known mean to open wormholes and that might be how the sleepers or the ancient race of whatever left New Eden for Anoikis. The isogen 5 supplies here and there were probably remnants of this era. Or maybe an offered hidden path to follow ?
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Honestly I havn't read the whole thread, but I don't think this has been menctioned before. Not a solution, but a piece or two I think.
Ishukone knows something about this, to the point they have been in a wormhole system before anyone else, probably just once, and certain high placed people know this.
Reason/Speculation:
The chrons Anoikis, Depth of Field, and Ante that Amann linked point to this, saying that Ishukone has experience, or would want data from wormhole systems. This implies that Ishukone knows something about it, but that they also want to know more, so whatever access they had gave them a taste for something there and then cut off.
Ishukone has been known to be able to control Rogue Drones to the point of getting permission from a Rogue Drone hive to access the Insorum in TEA. Later, the Blood Raiders gained more absolute access to a Rogue Drone facility processing Isogen-5 (in the End of the World series). This implies that Isogen-5 and Insorum were both made by the Rogue Drones and stored for some reason, and that, with the link between Isogen-5 and wormholes, that Rogue Drones are related somehow to the Sleepers. Therefore, a bit shaky, but you can follow the chain that Ishukone might know about Sleepers and the wormholes.
The name of the Ishukone-aligned (Rogue) Drone AI does heavily hint that Ishukone knows a whole lot more about artificial intelligence systems than they admit or anyone would believe. It may even be that it's not a true rogue system, but instead a reverse-engineered and somewhat "domesticated" drone hive. So, in addition to the SOCT, Ishukone also has some of the code that can be used to reprogram the drones. Or, remembering Ishukone-Jove trade, most famously the capsule, it might be that Ishukone traded something to the Jove/SOCT for this knowledge. (TCMCs, assuming the more advanced ones are an Ishukone development, would be a very good candidate. After all, a TCMC might offer a possible treatment for the Jovian Disease.)
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(TCMCs, assuming the more advanced ones are an Ishukone development, would be a very good candidate. After all, a TCMC might offer a possible treatment for the Jovian Disease.)
Has anyone Explored this line of thinking yet? We may have hit on something here.
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Zainou biotech is part of Ishukone.
A biotech company founded by the eccentric Todo Kirkinen, the first man to have his mind transferred into a machine.
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I would find it weird that a caldari high tech manufacturer, even if very advanced, was able to do something a far more advanced race like the jove is not able to do. But why not.
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Maybe it's not a field that the Jove have ever looked into. Why Mechanically Alter someones though process when they have used genetics to do it for countless years. They may not have even had the tech to produce that kind of hardware.
Sometimes when you spend alot of time specalizing in a single field you loose the ability to work outside of it.
Now the real question is would the TCMCs actually work on their brains - or would they be used as a starting point to produce something that does?
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Maybe it's not a field that the Jove have ever looked into. Why Mechanically Alter someones though process when they have used genetics to do it for countless years. They may not have even had the tech to produce that kind of hardware.
Sometimes when you spend alot of time specalizing in a single field you loose the ability to work outside of it.
Now the real question is would the TCMCs actually work on their brains - or would they be used as a starting point to produce something that does?
Raises a good point here.
It's worthwhile to note that while the Jovians are technically capable to achieve things, they may not have had the necessary research to do them. Or, more importantly, the practical experience in a real world environment.
It stands to reason TCMCs, which are designed to work on contemporary human brains, would need an augmented form to interact with a Jovian's. Their physiology in the brain has been dramatically altered (see the Academy for Aggressive Behavior).
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Reason/Speculation:
The chrons Anoikis, Depth of Field, and Ante that Amann linked point to this, saying that Ishukone has experience, or would want data from wormhole systems. This implies that Ishukone knows something about it, but that they also want to know more, so whatever access they had gave them a taste for something there and then cut off.
Crielere.
Everyone's missing that one, huge piece.
Ishukone has been known to be able to control Rogue Drones to the point of getting permission from a Rogue Drone hive to access the Insorum in TEA. Later, the Blood Raiders gained more absolute access to a Rogue Drone facility processing Isogen-5 (in the End of the World series). This implies that Isogen-5 and Insorum were both made by the Rogue Drones and stored for some reason, and that, with the link between Isogen-5 and wormholes, that Rogue Drones are related somehow to the Sleepers. Therefore, a bit shaky, but you can follow the chain that Ishukone might know about Sleepers and the wormholes.
;)
There's something else you're missing, an important piece.
If the ships in Sleeper space are not of Sleeper origin, and The Mirror has information on their construction, why isn't there information in the Archive? I think there is; and it's the answer to why the Drones are able to harvest the fuel for the Superweapon. It's the craziest, yet most logical answer there is:
They're based on something Terran. :twisted:
[spoiler]Europa Yards Consortium[/spoiler]
1.1-3.3 Digital Backup Library
3.4-3.5 Terran Artifacts
4.1 Theories of the EVE Gate
5.1 Talocan Technology
6.1-6.9 Emergent Ideologies
Also, what loot do Drones drop? If you want a link to Ishukone, I'll give you another big hint:
Crielere.
What would be the limitations of a self-replicating drone in making copies of itself? Available materials.
I'm sure this will all be taken completely wrong, and the connections won't be made, but I see the links in my head. I'm just terrible at explaining them. :oops:
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Crielere studied the properties of Morphite (tech 2), amongst others.
Also, the grand most generous sponsor of the project, Otro Gariushi, did nick a good part of the research results, if I remember correctly. Though officially, I think the results were all returned to public domain. Or were they?
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My (abridged yet copious) notes on an alternate theory:
An Alternate Theory: Technology Run Amok
A.E. Van Vogt is probably my favorite author. I first stumbled upon his writings in the form of "The World of Null-A" in a stack of books my mother brought home from the school she was teaching at. It was old, torn and fading. It inspired me though. I was in high school at the time, and seeing a totally foreign thought process to the one that was being drummed into me opened my eyes a bit.
The literal meaning of a statement expressed by sentence Σ is given by defining the method for observationally verifying the conditions under which Σ is properly used.
If you want to understand a dynamic system that is occurring over distances outside the normal experience of a single lifetime, you need a system that can:
A. Spread out across that distance.
B. Understand the patterns in real-time.
C. Make observations for a period far beyond the normal lifetime of a human.
In short, to understand the underlying mechanics of the universe, you'd have to have a brain capable of understanding the scale, and a lifetime long enough to keep everything in perspective.
You need a puddle examining it's own shape. :D In other words, a distributed processing network with real-time observations. You also need those observations to be made in all areas of that dynamic system.
In Summary:
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lorenz_attractor_boxed.svg) is the shape of New Eden. :P
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle) explains why the SCT would make use of automated systems to make observations in relation to cosmology.
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_feedback) explains why cryogenic systems would be used in the "W-space" sites. Basically, all the evidence I see points to a feedback loop within the Sleeper sites. As anyone who's tried to overclock a processor knows, heat is an issue; you want to dissipate that heat somehow.
Hehehe. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_cooling#Phase-change_cooling) In short, the Sleepers are the ultimate computer geeks. Those are some Epically Sweet gaming rigs. And uh, they are probably pretty good at doing research too. :bear:
This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_computing[/url) would explain the various states of decay associated with Sleeper sites. As systems break down, they are cannibalized to produce replacement systems. Local materials are harvested to provide raw material, circuits are disassembled, and new facilities and defensive systems are produced. Solar and ambient energy is harvested to power the systems.
When we create the first superintelligent entity, we might make a mistake and give it goals that lead it to annihilate humankind, assuming its enormous intellectual advantage gives it the power to do so. For example, we could mistakenly elevate a subgoal to the status of a supergoal. We tell it to solve a mathematical problem, and it complies by turning all the matter in the solar system into a giant calculating device, in the process killing the person who asked the question.-Bostrom[2002] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity#Existential_risk)
That's uh... that's one big "Oops". :oops: It also has some interesting implications in regards to SCT being implicated in giving Sansha access to certain technology.
Further Reading:
Evidently, some more links are necessary:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle (SCT)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_transition#Relevance_in_cosmology
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_space
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_space_method
Finally:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lorenz_attractor
Hypothetical Situation:
The Talocan probably stumbled upon Sleeper drones; the discovery would have brought with it a huge leap forward in their understanding of the universe. They were explorers; they were curious. The leaps and bounds of scientific discovery they would be capable of would dwarf any other human achievement before or since. Then, one day, they made a mistake. They asked this marvel to help them. They were searching for something, you see. Something they wanted to know so bad that it overrode all reason:
They wanted to find their way back home.
Some time later, after the damage had been done, others stumbled upon the wreckage of what occurred next. They found a treasure trove of information, everything they could desire. Then, one day, they made a mistake. They gave it a task that eventually ended with results that were less than optimal. What could that have been?
"Can you cure our disease?"
So, what does it mean?
Well how good of you to ask!
What is in W-space is evidence of something that proves that the Talocan had spread out across W-space. That they were looking for something is a reasonable hypthesis, and a good point to begin the investigation.
What we find in some sites are "obsolete" Sleeper interfaces. This would be a good place to start looking if you were looking for a connection between the Sleepers and the Talocan. This supports the conjecture that there was a trading of information between the Sleepers and the Talocan. What could the nature of that information be?
The Mirror is a good place to start that investigation. "Talocan Technology" is after a substantial amount of information, notably Terran and EVE Gate references. This is a logical progression.
The EVE Gate is not in W-space. It's in New Eden.
We have Terran Artifacts, Talocan Technology, Theories of the EVE Gate, and last but not least Emergent Ideologies. Further, we have evidence that the Jove must have known about the information contained in these sites; hiding Terran Artifacts near the EVE Gate for instance. Emergent Ideologies would be a good basis for the SCT, and the other aspects of W-space probably represent the ultimate ideals of their order.
Self-sufficienct, reclusive, possessing a great deal of insight into reality and knowledge beyond that of a mortal...
Sounds like a God to me.
So, why would the Blood Raiders see their God in the images of Sleeper space?
Two possibilities:
A. Influence of the SCT.
B. Stumbling upon Talocan information (how?).
C. Both A and B.
The first makes sense in relation to the "Emergent Ideologies" database entry. If anyone has read the Dune novels, you would understand how the Bene Gesserit used "religious engineering". Basically, you plant a superstition amongst a people in order to take advantage of beneficial social aspects when certain situations present themselves. [For more, read this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit#Missionaria_Protectiva)]
The second would imply a link between the Talocan and the Amarr. Do we have evidence of this? Is it a strong or weak argument?
The third... well, the implications are interesting to say the least. I won't go into this right now.
The Rogue Drones
So what does this have to do with Rogue Drones? Well, not much. Someone decided that drones would be a good idea, and giving them more autonomy to pursue goals was just swell. Things went wrong. People died. Eventually someone figured out a common link, and was able to learn how to reach a compromise with some.
They also infested deadspace complexes, some of which housed Terran technology. That's the first step towards the Sleeper mystery, isn't it? How long could it take for them to stumble upon the same question?
If someone knew what happened to the Sleepers and the Talocan (and possibly the Jove), then wouldn't it be wise to set up some defenses?
Just some food for thought. ;)
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Ohh awesome.
But I still want to learn more about SCT :p
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Ohh awesome.
But I still want to learn more about SCT :p
Read World of Null-A if you can find it. Amazon has it on Kindle for a dollar. The introduction by A.E. Van Vogt describes something very interesting regarding the role of the observer in a situation, and some interesting implications of that in regards to individual action.
Hyperconsciousness (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=19-11-07b)
BTW, I've always said that Tony Gonzales' writing reminded me of A.E. Van Vogt. According to a recent interview, the novel Templar One will answer some questions about the Sleepers.
I have mixed feelings about this, and I regret not posting these theories sooner. :cry:
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Ah yes I have read hyperconsciousness.
Will see what I can dig then on other sources then.