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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Ghost Hunter on 17 Apr 2010, 00:09
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As a long time Sansha roleplayer, I've noticed two distinct schools of thought that are involved in Sansha roleplay.
Edit; This is entirely my own observation of the Sansha roleplay environment and not necessarily mainstream canon.
For those who do not know who or what Sansha's Nation is, please look here (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=jan01-01) for a general overview of its history.
The Primary School of Thought
The primary school of thought, or the Path of the True Sansha, is the one that is closest and central to Sansha's Nation's "canon" design.
Typically those involved in this path believe:
- Sansha Kuvakei's vision is the one and only future for mankind
- The True Slaves are permissible/admirable/desirable or otherwise a quality worth keeping
- The Nation must be rebuilt and fulfill Sansha's will (which I infer from canon as galactic domination)
This path can thusly be seen as that of the dominator, imperialist, or conqueror.
The Secondary School of Thought
The secondary school of thought, or the Path of the Reformist, is the one I have seen most Sansha roleplayers center their roleplay on.
Typically those involved in this path believe:
- Sansha Kuvakei's vision is one worth striving for, but he was deeply flawed in how he wanted to achieve it
- The True Slave technology is abhorrent and must be abolished/destroyed
- The Nation needs to be rebuilt, but not in the way that destroyed it (Sansha's unrestricted experiments, the True Slaves, expansionism, etc)
This path can thusly be seen as that of the utopianist, pacifist, or forgiver.
The two schools and their differences
There is a definite friction/conflict between these two schools as they take Sansha's Nation in complete opposite directions. Those from the Path of the True Sansha most likely desire a return to the Nation's former glory and a renewed galactic war to destroy all the other Empires in New Eden. Those on the Path of the Reformist would want to rebuild the Nation and achieve humanity's technological future without instigating a galactic war.
The two schools and their similarities
Although they are at complete odds with how the ruined Nation should progress in the future, both the schools are largely the same on every other front. Both believe in Sansha's vision of a technological human future (akin to the Jovian's and their human genetic path (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jove)). Both believe the Nation can return to its former glory, both believe in the superiority of Sansha's vision, so on so forth.
Ending commentary
Although I feel I cover both schools of thought enough for people to "get the gist of", do let me know if I should add in more defining information.
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Very decent work there, Ghost.
What should also probably be covered is some sort of snapshot of what the hell kind of condition the nation's in; and not just its core states but also far-flung outposts in the hands of splinter groups like Traumark or the worlds of Esoteria, or the role played by raving, slavering beasts like Chelm, who probably eats babies for breakfast and kills everything around him whenever he's not getting chewed on by a capsuleer.
You know, a sort of primer on Sansha.
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Great post. 8)
Also, quite interested in the stuff Ashar is talking about above.
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....I really can't not reply, no matter how much I may want to. . .
Sansha Kuvakei's vision is the one and only future for mankind
The True Slaves are permissible/admirable/desirable or otherwise a quality worth keeping
The Nation must be rebuilt and fulfill Sansha's will (which I infer from canon as galactic domination)
The bolded ones I disagree with. Especially the second one, but in part the first. I never got from Canon that Sansha's Nation was ever a conquering group. Sansha built Sansha's Nation to get away from the failings of Empires and create a "true" Utopia in the vision he had of how it should be. He experimented on people and in doing so created a Dystopian society that, for anyone visiting or living there, would be entirely unnoticed unless they were "in the know" of what was going on.
Sansha's Nation expanded because he was buying up star systems people didn't want anymore. It grew because people heard how great it was to live there and moved on in. They were not conquesting or assaulting anywhere, not until they were attacked. The Empires went after Sansha, not the other way around. Claiming that "Galactic Domination" is part of Sansha's vision seems to me to be something that belongs in the second group, not the first.
Sansha's Vision was about the Empires leaving them the fuck alone, not about taking over space. They didn't start working on that until they were fighting for their very existence.
As for the first part. My gripe is with "one and only". I would replace it with "best".
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The impression I always got was somewhere in between the two extremes: The Nation wanted to be left alone while it perfected itself, but once it reached its utopian perfection it would reach out and start perfecting the rest of the cluster, by force if necessary.
That opinion's based on very little, though - I never searched very hard for Sansha-related PF so there may be stuff I missed :p
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...this thread will be my downfall.
Addendum:
I think you have the two "Primary Views of thought" incorrectly set out in general, because by the way you have it focussed the primary disagreement is the True program, and I don't think that there is really much contention in that. Part of being a Sansha is accepting the True program at this point in time. If you do not accept the True program, then I would argue you are not a Sansha, you are a Utopianist. Which the Nation is a part of, but that is very little of the aspect of the Nation in general.
Secondly, I think that the difference is between the Conquest versus the Society.
I would suggest the two schools of thought break down more into whether or not someone wants to be a Pirate and general rabble-rouser, or they want to Rebuild the Nation. What are they fighting for? Are they fighting for the Nation? Are they trying to build Sansha's vision? Or are they looking for an excuse to yell really loud and blow as much up as possible?
I would suggest that one of those is Sansha. The other is not.
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The impression I always got was somewhere in between the two extremes: The Nation wanted to be left alone while it perfected itself, but once it reached its utopian perfection it would reach out and start perfecting the rest of the cluster, by force if necessary.
I do not find that to be evidenced anywhere in the PF that is available (when the new book comes out or whatever, is it already?, that may change). Sansha did not strike me as a conqueror, he may easily have become one later, however.
That opinion's based on very little, though - I never searched very hard for Sansha-related PF so there may be stuff I missed :p
There's never been a lot of PF about it, most of the stuff about Sansha that's out there has primarily been player driven.
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The Burning Life is out and it does have a good bit about the Nation. I won't put any spoilers in this thread, but you should probably read it.
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I do not find that to be evidenced anywhere in the PF that is available
Well no, not evidenced.. just seemed kinda implied.
Interested to see what all is in the Burning Life novel - I won't be buying it until it hits paperback, though because I'm poor and stuff. :P
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It actually is in paperback...$10 on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/EVE-Burning-Life-Hjalti-Danielsson/dp/0765325292/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271516934&sr=8-1)
The Burning Life is out and it does have a good bit about the Nation. I won't put any spoilers in this thread, but you should probably read it.
That's what the spoiler tags (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=57.0) are for!
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The Burning Life is out and it does have a good bit about the Nation. I won't put any spoilers in this thread, but you should probably read it.
I would not at all be surprised if they decided to completely alter how the Nation was implied from the start and made it this warlike monster. :bash:
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lol that's a possibility - they like making sweeping changes in a very sudden way that our characters would've seen coming but don't. Still, even if they have done that it doesn't stop people from RPing more moderate Sanshabots! :)
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I don't know. If you ask me the thing about Sansha's Nation that was appealing to begin with was the fact that it wasn't a typical Pirate entity. Look at all the different pirate groups (non-player) you have out there.
1. Angel Cartel - Bunch of drug-dealing ingrates
2. Serpentis - Loonies!
3. Blooders - Religious Whackjobs!
4. EoM - They want to kill everyone.
5. Guristas - Blatant Pirates
6. Sansha's Nation - A dead civilization that was viewed as a threat by empires concerned for their territory and horrified by unethical scientific methods.
One of these things is not like the others. . .
Turning the Nation into "just another pirate entity" would be, although entirely unsurprising given the nature of the fiction writers CCP has been going, a rather large detraction from what they were about initially, and also make them more SSDD "oh noes a bad guy!11!11!!11!!" faction.
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Hm.. when you put it that way, yeah, would definitely be a pretty weak thing to do story-wise.
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I will say that Hjalti (CCP Abraxas) has a far more subtle approach than Gonzales did, and so I don't think he just converts all the factions into lolstereotypes. For example, the Guristas and Angels have a lot more to them than I recognized, and he does a fine job of humanizing the Sani Sabik and Blood Raiders.
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Mmmm... humanized Blooders. So will I actually read past page 96 or so when I get this new book?
[spoiler](in the TEA paperback, that's the page where the Broker jumps into a vat of molten metal and makes a phone call seconds later)[/spoiler]
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That's up to you, but I found it eminently more readable than TEA. And if you stopped at page 96, you stopped yourself from getting to far worse stuff.
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I think there are more than 2 schools of Sansha thought. I know what Silver extolled was the more 'Utopian' side of it. I think that is a valid style of play for a Sansha. The idea was that the emphasis on the True Salves isn't all of what the Nation is or is about.
Admittedly IC Silver might tend to under-emphasis it, but I also think that OOC there is not really evidence that when the Nation was in its prime the True Slaves were the focus. I think a non-True-Slave-centric view of Sansha is still a valid style of Sansha RP.
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....I really can't not reply, no matter how much I may want to. . .
Sansha Kuvakei's vision is the one and only future for mankind
The True Slaves are permissible/admirable/desirable or otherwise a quality worth keeping
The Nation must be rebuilt and fulfill Sansha's will (which I infer from canon as galactic domination)
The bolded ones I disagree with. Especially the second one, but in part the first. I never got from Canon that Sansha's Nation was ever a conquering group. Sansha built Sansha's Nation to get away from the failings of Empires and create a "true" Utopia in the vision he had of how it should be. He experimented on people and in doing so created a Dystopian society that, for anyone visiting or living there, would be entirely unnoticed unless they were "in the know" of what was going on.
Sansha's Nation expanded because he was buying up star systems people didn't want anymore. It grew because people heard how great it was to live there and moved on in. They were not conquesting or assaulting anywhere, not until they were attacked. The Empires went after Sansha, not the other way around. Claiming that "Galactic Domination" is part of Sansha's vision seems to me to be something that belongs in the second group, not the first.
Sansha's Vision was about the Empires leaving them the fuck alone, not about taking over space. They didn't start working on that until they were fighting for their very existence.
As for the first part. My gripe is with "one and only". I would replace it with "best".
In its original incarnation I would say that the Nation was never intended to be a conquering entity. However, the series of events that led to its downfall could very much have turned it into one. Sansha acquired huge areas of space and attracted an equally huge amount of followers. Somewhere along the line the power got to his head and his unethical research began. His genius created the True Slave technology and it was kept in the dark for a while as he continued to work on it.
Here I would argue that these experiments are not inherently dystopian if they had been kept only to a scientific level. When he was exposed, it became quite clear Sansha intended to make the True Slaves the bulk (or the entirety) of the Nation's space forces. I believe it was a vast majority of his followers that had left at that point and all who remained were the True Slaves and the Citizens who believed wholly in his vision.
At this point I believe the war started with the four Empires and Sansha was brought down from his mad seat of power. Now in the aftermath of the Nation's ruin this is where things are skewed. All that remains is the True Slaves and the Citizens. Sansha created the True Slaves to be his completely faithful, unwavering army. In this way, that war a century ago is still going on for them. They are still fighting it, even if everyone else has moved on and buried that part of history. The continued rumors of Sansha's Nation's build up from the Nightmare and True Creations' descriptions imply this.
Thusly, this is why I call the primary school the Path of the True Sansha. Those who follow it are among those that stayed with Sansha during the fall a century ago. True Slaves and madmen utterly devoted to how Sansha envisioned the future and however flawed he wanted to achieve it.
I do agree with you that the Nation was not originally about conquering, however the war did change that in my opinion.
...this thread will be my downfall.
Addendum:
I think you have the two "Primary Views of thought" incorrectly set out in general, because by the way you have it focussed the primary disagreement is the True program, and I don't think that there is really much contention in that. Part of being a Sansha is accepting the True program at this point in time. If you do not accept the True program, then I would argue you are not a Sansha, you are a Utopianist. Which the Nation is a part of, but that is very little of the aspect of the Nation in general.
Secondly, I think that the difference is between the Conquest versus the Society.
I would suggest the two schools of thought break down more into whether or not someone wants to be a Pirate and general rabble-rouser, or they want to Rebuild the Nation. What are they fighting for? Are they fighting for the Nation? Are they trying to build Sansha's vision? Or are they looking for an excuse to yell really loud and blow as much up as possible?
I would suggest that one of those is Sansha. The other is not.
The reason I include the True Slave program and how both schools view it is because it was arguably the central reason the Nation was brought down. In order to rebuild the Nation, this program and seemingly others like it will either have to be supported or destroyed. It cannot be ignored.
You would argue those not in favor of the program are not Sansha, and I would say that is something those in the primary school would say about those in the secondary school. I believe being a Utopianist is a big aspect of the Nation that was severely depleted during the mass desertion of the Nation and the resulting war. Now only the True Sansha have the most representation, while the Utopianist visionaries are understocked.
I agree with you that those that solely want to bang their sticks together and start meaningless conflicts are not Sansha. Mercenaries, however useful, rarely tend to build things. If you notice in my original post, this is why I include a distinct way each school of thought wants to rebuild the nation. The True Sansha want to rebuild it and launch a conquest, the Reformers want to achieve a Utopian state.
I made these two schools under the assumption one was a Sansha loyalist, and one must desire the Nation be rebuilt to qualify for this in my book. Otherwise, you are a mercenary on the Nation's payroll, basically. Perhaps I should've specified this in my original post?.
The Burning Life is out and it does have a good bit about the Nation. I won't put any spoilers in this thread, but you should probably read it.
I would not at all be surprised if they decided to completely alter how the Nation was implied from the start and made it this warlike monster. :bash:
It's not honestly, or I didn't get that impression from the book. There is a very distinct toss up between it wanting to return to war and it simply wanting to rebuild itself. Or perhaps simply mucking about?
I think there are more than 2 schools of Sansha thought. I know what Silver extolled was the more 'Utopian' side of it. I think that is a valid style of play for a Sansha. The idea was that the emphasis on the True Salves isn't all of what the Nation is or is about.
Admittedly IC Silver might tend to under-emphasis it, but I also think that OOC there is not really evidence that when the Nation was in its prime the True Slaves were the focus. I think a non-True-Slave-centric view of Sansha is still a valid style of Sansha RP.
I had thought about a third school for a while, one that is something like what you just described. However, given how the Nation is now and how the True Slaves cannot be ignored, I believe that it is a problem that must be addressed. That is why the second school, the one I believe that would fit what you described, has that line addressing the issue. Much like the old American slavery system that divided North and South way back when, to ignore it will fracture the Nation in my mind.
Sansha envisioned the True Slaves to answer one of the many problems on how to reach his Utopian state, I believe. In this way they were not the focus, but only became one afterward when the public revelations severely damaged Sansha and ultimately led to the war. A non-True Slave centric view is quite valid of course, I just have not seen many who have not taken a distinct stance on the issue either way. Or did I miss understand your point perhaps?
Very decent work there, Ghost.
What should also probably be covered is some sort of snapshot of what the hell kind of condition the nation's in; and not just its core states but also far-flung outposts in the hands of splinter groups like Traumark or the worlds of Esoteria, or the role played by raving, slavering beasts like Chelm, who probably eats babies for breakfast and kills everything around him whenever he's not getting chewed on by a capsuleer.
You know, a sort of primer on Sansha.
Would this be for this topic or another topic? I can work on another topic for the general state of the Nation.
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Oh my god I go and tell myself I won't make huge posts and here I am. lol
Edit; Oh I forgot. Glad to see you posting Lilith, you were among those I was hoping to see but I didn't know you registered.
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Glad to see you posting Lilith, you were among those I was hoping to see but I didn't know you registered.
A surefire way of getting me to respond is to start a thread about the Nation. ;)
In its original incarnation I would say that the Nation was never intended to be a conquering entity. However, the series of events that led to its downfall could very much have turned it into one. Sansha acquired huge areas of space and attracted an equally huge amount of followers. Somewhere along the line the power got to his head and his unethical research began. His genius created the True Slave technology and it was kept in the dark for a while as he continued to work on it.
Honestly I would be surprised if the unethical research wasn't there to begin with. It was one of the foundations (my interpretation) of the Nation's birth to begin with. Sansha was a dreamer, and ethical restrictions are stifling towards such things. Though I agree that the True program likely was not there from the beginning.
At this point I believe the war started with the four Empires and Sansha was brought down from his mad seat of power. Now in the aftermath of the Nation's ruin this is where things are skewed. All that remains is the True Slaves and the Citizens. Sansha created the True Slaves to be his completely faithful, unwavering army. In this way, that war a century ago is still going on for them. They are still fighting it, even if everyone else has moved on and buried that part of history. The continued rumors of Sansha's Nation's build up from the Nightmare and True Creations' descriptions imply this.
Thusly, this is why I call the primary school the Path of the True Sansha. Those who follow it are among those that stayed with Sansha during the fall a century ago. True Slaves and madmen utterly devoted to how Sansha envisioned the future and however flawed he wanted to achieve it.
That would imply Sansha is really dead and/or had no successor. Do we really know that? Is that answered anywhere in the book?
I do agree with you that the Nation was not originally about conquering, however the war did change that in my opinion.
Though I wouldn't necessarily claim that it would shift them to being about conquest and conquering the Cluster. They could have the view, not of returning the battle to the aggressors, but simply of surviving.
You would argue those not in favor of the program are not Sansha, and I would say that is something those in the primary school would say about those in the secondary school. I believe being a Utopianist is a big aspect of the Nation that was severely depleted during the mass desertion of the Nation and the resulting war. Now only the True Sansha have the most representation, while the Utopianist visionaries are understocked.
Which is why I would argue that. I would argue that a True Sansha (and not the actual zombehs) is a Sansha. Though a Utopianist could ascribe to Sansha's vision, that vision -- sans the Trues is really no different than any other Communist Utopian Society. The Trues are the real differentiating factor between Sansha's vision and, for instance, Karl Marx's. He devised a way for everyone to do what they pleased and enjoy life to its fullest -- at the expense of the dirty underside of the Nation's slave stock.
The True Sansha want to rebuild it and launch a conquest, the Reformers want to achieve a Utopian state.
But this is where the disagreement comes from. Lillith is/was a True Sansha follower, she does not believe conquest is the answer. Especially not militarily. She believes that upon the Nation's true rebirth, just like before, people will see that it is the Utopian place they believed and those that want that life will go there. Those who do not can blast themselves out of an airlock. Thus is the nature of the cluster. There's a place for everyone, and that, I think, is a core part of Sansha's initial foundation of the Nation.
It's not honestly, or I didn't get that impression from the book. There is a very distinct toss up between it wanting to return to war and it simply wanting to rebuild itself. Or perhaps simply mucking about?
...I suppose it can't be all bad then. . .
I think a non-True-Slave-centric view of Sansha is still a valid style of Sansha RP.
Of course it is. I just generally would suggest that they're more Utopian than Sansha...n. Sanshan.. Hrm. Whatever. Anyway, I would make that suggestion just as (and I apologize in advance for this comparison but it is the best I can come up with, and it is not intended to invoke Godwin's Law) a Nazi that did not believe in the racial segregation (not cleansing, just the segregation) isn't really a Nazi, but they are still a Fascist.
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That would imply Sansha is really dead and/or had no successor. Do we really know that? Is that answered anywhere in the book?
[spoiler]
The book has a character that claims to be Sansha Kuvakei in an unusual configuration / incarnation, and while we can't say for certain, the circumstances of the claim lend credence to it.
[/spoiler]
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Very decent work there, Ghost.
What should also probably be covered is some sort of snapshot of what the hell kind of condition the nation's in; and not just its core states but also far-flung outposts in the hands of splinter groups like Traumark or the worlds of Esoteria, or the role played by raving, slavering beasts like Chelm, who probably eats babies for breakfast and kills everything around him whenever he's not getting chewed on by a capsuleer.
You know, a sort of primer on Sansha.
Would this be for this topic or another topic? I can work on another topic for the general state of the Nation.
Well.
Given that you guys are arguing about two sets of pet theories that are drawn from differing perceptions of what ultimately must be a single reality...I'd say that you need to fundamentally agree on that self-same reality. Draw up the ten central points to do with the Nation you feel must be universally acknowledged, and go from there.
Could do it in this thread.
And as for having possible 'schools of thought' invalidated by a lack of focus on trueslaves, well. Let's say I want to roleplay an escapee from some Nation splinter group who is heavily augmented and runs some sort of facility where they do Sansha-like things. While I'm no loyalist, I'm still possessed of a pretty Sansha character concept; it does not fall down simply because of its framing and can stand or crumble on the merit of its execution. And yes, I'm referring to Ruby Amatucci.
Which I guess is a roundabout way of saying that these are loyalist and specifically revivalist thought-patterns.
And Lillith, it may be more suitable to your palate if we can agree that these schools of thought are collections of opinions and pet theories moreso than clear reflections of truth. Certainly, the Nation didn't start out warlike, but currently, it's splinter groups are sending rats to a hell of a lot of regions, in what seem like endless waves. Surely what one perceives and chooses to internalize from this can form a firm conviction that war is the thing?
In any case, some stuff I want y'all to agree/disagree on:
-The Nation is a splintered thing, as evidenced by its factional core being in one region and its slew of rat-fleets being in others.
-There are great tracts of space in these regions where, between exploration complexes and implicitly colonized planets, a great deal of very varied Sansha or post-Sansha installations and societies may exist. Especially Traumark.
-Sansha himself may or may not be dead, but functionally, leadership of the nation is not publicly perceived to equate to him. Some do suspect he's off somewhere in a vat giving orders to whatever chunk of the core faction he can influence, though.
-No matter what's said in the EVE Online novels, we still have a pretty wide shot at rationalizing away the idea of making the Nation into the kind of slavering beast that the other pirate factions are because:
*The many splinters PF implies exist have not been brought under any real semblance of control; if they had been, the Nation would already be rebuilt or their expeditionary fleets would be smarter, or have some greater effect on the regions they've invaded than to harass capsuleers and get killed;
*The people in charge of the core splinter groups who THINK they have control over the whole of the Nation's forces, or are said to have control over all of the nation's forces, are all programmed to do so, whether by propaganda that allows only a fraction of realism to leak through or by a chip in their heads, because the pragmatists in charge of creating leaders (the kingmakers, so to speak) simply create whatever they need to for the sake of their splinter of the faction, and
*Qualitatively, the degree to which such a thing would hamper good roleplay is such that I'd go as far as altering my character's perceptions of the Nation, just for a shot at deeper play, and frankly if the Devs can't get down with that because of the market niche they're writing for, fuck 'em.
Gief opinion.
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To Lilith;
Though I wouldn't necessarily claim that it would shift them to being about conquest and conquering the Cluster. They could have the view, not of returning the battle to the aggressors, but simply of surviving.
It's possible. It's really how much the powers in control of the True Slaves have them dead set on a war effort, in my mind.
Which is why I would argue that. I would argue that a True Sansha (and not the actual zombehs) is a Sansha. Though a Utopianist could ascribe to Sansha's vision, that vision -- sans the Trues is really no different than any other Communist Utopian Society. The Trues are the real differentiating factor between Sansha's vision and, for instance, Karl Marx's. He devised a way for everyone to do what they pleased and enjoy life to its fullest -- at the expense of the dirty underside of the Nation's slave stock.
I don't quite believe that its similar to the Communist Utopian Society vision. Rather, have a look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT-43#The_Therians) for what I believe to be closer to Sansha's vision. Technological human evolution, as it were.
But this is where the disagreement comes from. Lillith is/was a True Sansha follower, she does not believe conquest is the answer. Especially not militarily. She believes that upon the Nation's true rebirth, just like before, people will see that it is the Utopian place they believed and those that want that life will go there. Those who do not can blast themselves out of an airlock. Thus is the nature of the cluster. There's a place for everyone, and that, I think, is a core part of Sansha's initial foundation of the Nation.
I think you and I have different definitions of what qualifies as a True Sansha. I equate the True Sansha to the leadership of the True Slaves and fanatical humans who may or may not be controlled by implants, but rather by their own faith in Sansha. You seem to think of them as what I have called the Reformists.
Am I right, or no? We'll need to clarify this I think.
And now to Ashar;
Given that you guys are arguing about two sets of pet theories that are drawn from differing perceptions of what ultimately must be a single reality...I'd say that you need to fundamentally agree on that self-same reality. Draw up the ten central points to do with the Nation you feel must be universally acknowledged, and go from there.
Could do it in this thread.
And as for having possible 'schools of thought' invalidated by a lack of focus on trueslaves, well. Let's say I want to roleplay an escapee from some Nation splinter group who is heavily augmented and runs some sort of facility where they do Sansha-like things. While I'm no loyalist, I'm still possessed of a pretty Sansha character concept; it does not fall down simply because of its framing and can stand or crumble on the merit of its execution. And yes, I'm referring to Ruby Amatucci.
I'm not implying such a thing would fail simply because it doesn't fit into the schools of thought, am I?
I'll think on the ten central points idea, although I'm a bit weary.
In any case, some stuff I want y'all to agree/disagree on:
-The Nation is a splintered thing, as evidenced by its factional core being in one region and its slew of rat-fleets being in others.
I've always understood it as a shattered, but connected entity. Are you drawing your evidence for its factional core in Stain from the in-game sovereignty? I believe that's more of a game mechanic than a PF matter?
-There are great tracts of space in these regions where, between exploration complexes and implicitly colonized planets, a great deal of very varied Sansha or post-Sansha installations and societies may exist. Especially Traumark.
I can agree with this.
-Sansha himself may or may not be dead, but functionally, leadership of the nation is not publicly perceived to equate to him. Some do suspect he's off somewhere in a vat giving orders to whatever chunk of the core faction he can influence, though.
I'm not sure about this. Vizan and Koratama have never really been public figures to my knowledge so Sansha is still equated as the leader of his Nation, I think. Functionally speaking they may lead the Nation in his absence by controlling True Power and True Creations respectively.
-No matter what's said in the EVE Online novels, we still have a pretty wide shot at rationalizing away the idea of making the Nation into the kind of slavering beast that the other pirate factions are because:
*The many splinters PF implies exist have not been brought under any real semblance of control; if they had been, the Nation would already be rebuilt or their expeditionary fleets would be smarter, or have some greater effect on the regions they've invaded than to harass capsuleers and get killed
*The people in charge of the core splinter groups who THINK they have control over the whole of the Nation's forces, or are said to have control over all of the nation's forces, are all programmed to do so, whether by propaganda that allows only a fraction of realism to leak through or by a chip in their heads, because the pragmatists in charge of creating leaders (the kingmakers, so to speak) simply create whatever they need to for the sake of their splinter of the faction, and
*Qualitatively, the degree to which such a thing would hamper good roleplay is such that I'd go as far as altering my character's perceptions of the Nation, just for a shot at deeper play, and frankly if the Devs can't get down with that because of the market niche they're writing for, fuck 'em.
You'll have to walk me through on these splinter groups you're talking about. You mention Traumark a lot and I have a feeling I'll need to visit there soon.
Or maybe I've just been struck with the dumb.
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Okay.
Ghost and I talked about some stuff that I expect we'll be postan' about soon. City-states, you might say. Except less crude than it sounds.
Also, I read that shit on therians, Ghost. I think it's one outcome, but Silver and I talked about another involving ascension for greater and greater portions of a colony to True Citizenship status in a successful nation that turned a bit hivemindey later maybe.
ANYWAI
Tired, more later.
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Been mostly absent all weekend. So much posted. Hurg. This may seem a bit disjointed and I will apologize in advance if it is difficult to follow who I am quoting where.
Which I guess is a roundabout way of saying that these are loyalist and specifically revivalist thought-patterns.
I think this is a better way of putting it as to the "schools of thought" aspect.
And Lillith, it may be more suitable to your palate if we can agree that these schools of thought are collections of opinions and pet theories moreso than clear reflections of truth. Certainly, the Nation didn't start out warlike, but currently, it's splinter groups are sending rats to a hell of a lot of regions, in what seem like endless waves. Surely what one perceives and chooses to internalize from this can form a firm conviction that war is the thing?
I would view them (and do) primarily that they are still viewing it that they are fighting for their own survival, not that they are in any intention to bring forth conquest. They've been effectively eradicated from space and would, at this point, be running on full "fight-or-flight" impulse. Beyond that you could also look at it that everyone has affectively set them to Red, so they're shooting back.
But yes, they are currently in a state of war, but that does not mean they are in a state of conquest.
The Nation is a splintered thing, as evidenced by its factional core being in one region and its slew of rat-fleets being in others.
Doesn't it technically span multiple reasons? Aren't they also somewhat in Catch and a smidgen in Curse? But yes, they are obviously shattered.
There are great tracts of space in these regions where, between exploration complexes and implicitly colonized planets, a great deal of very varied Sansha or post-Sansha installations and societies may exist. Especially Traumark.
Obviously.
Sansha himself may or may not be dead, but functionally, leadership of the nation is not publicly perceived to equate to him. Some do suspect he's off somewhere in a vat giving orders to whatever chunk of the core faction he can influence, though.
I have to side with Ghost on this one.
You mention Traumark a lot and I have a feeling I'll need to visit there soon.
It's not that exciting. :)
I don't quite believe that its similar to the Communist Utopian Society vision. Rather, have a look at this for what I believe to be closer to Sansha's vision. Technological human evolution, as it were.
Being generally eye-rolly at post-humanism I snub thee! SNUB THEE!
In all seriousness, though, it is quite evident in Sansha's leaving the State that he was a freethinker and had a distaste for the way that the empires hampered technological progress, however I do not really feel that he was intending to evolve the species. He wanted a place where his people could live as they pleased. Not from a transhuman aspect, but from a freethinking aspect. The Trues were, all in all, originally designed as the Nation's Defense force. An adaptive AI that would not go Rogue, like the Drones did in the past. A True Drone, more than a True Slave, I would suggest.
I think you and I have different definitions of what qualifies as a True Sansha. I equate the True Sansha to the leadership of the True Slaves and fanatical humans who may or may not be controlled by implants, but rather by their own faith in Sansha. You seem to think of them as what I have called the Reformists
No, that's about right, though I would emphasize the "may not" over the "may or," also I would emphasize "fanatical humans". Having the leadership controlled by implants would be detrimental as a whole, and I believe the our good friend Kuvekai would be smart enough to not do that. ;) That's my perspective, mind.
another involving ascension for greater and greater portions of a colony to True Citizenship status in a successful nation that turned a bit hivemindey later maybe.
See, this is something I've always had a problem with. Here's the problem: The Hivemind concept is not something that would benefit humanity. Our core processing methods are diametrically opposed to a hivermind, and therefore it would actually be a step back in general for humanity, as a Hivemind would not be functional if the drones were emotional, and human decision-making process is directly dependant upon emotional response.
In order to work towards something like a Hive Mind you would have to completely, from the ground up, redesign the human thought methods. Now while this may be a goal, this is not something you would accomplish in a matter of years, much less centuries. This is something that would literally take thousands of years.
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Hai again, Lillith. Almost forgot about this thread.
I would view them (and do) primarily that they are still viewing it that they are fighting for their own survival, not that they are in any intention to bring forth conquest. They've been effectively eradicated from space and would, at this point, be running on full "fight-or-flight" impulse. Beyond that you could also look at it that everyone has affectively set them to Red, so they're shooting back.
But yes, they are currently in a state of war, but that does not mean they are in a state of conquest.
Question-dodger.
The rats in endless waves, taken alone, all else held aside.
Do they look like they could be a mindless invasion force?
I have to side with Ghost on this one.
Yeah, apparently I didn't phrase that well.
The intent of that bit of text was to establish that from the viewpoint of the inner cluster nations and the rest of the cluster at large, Kuvakei was generally thought dead, although people were on guard against his return.
See, this is something I've always had a problem with. Here's the problem: The Hivemind concept is not something that would benefit humanity. Our core processing methods are diametrically opposed to a hivermind, and therefore it would actually be a step back in general for humanity, as a Hivemind would not be functional if the drones were emotional, and human decision-making process is directly dependant upon emotional response.
In order to work towards something like a Hive Mind you would have to completely, from the ground up, redesign the human thought methods. Now while this may be a goal, this is not something you would accomplish in a matter of years, much less centuries. This is something that would literally take thousands of years.
Yeah, hence 'hivemindey' rather than 'hivemind.'
True hive-minds of the sort found in biology don't involve a shared brain, despite in some cases arguably being a shared mind. They may extend a crude form of cognition to each other through strange patterns of communication, but there's not a shared organ.
However, if the TrueSlaves and TrueCitizens are all essentially rendered telepathic by advancing technology (in the same vein as capsuleer near-telepathy) and the speed at which they process thought rises due to implants being improved, and the fortune of the Nation becomes such that they can make more citizens into TrueCitizens - or even reclaim TrueSlaves from the garbage dump of faulty brains and societal cast-offs and make THEM into TrueCitizens, if things get so good they don't need a giant force of drones/slaves...well. You get more hardware to process more common thoughts, faster.
You don't get a hivemind; you get a technologically enabled mental collective. One that becomes akin to an AI in processing power.
This is one possible Sansha eschaton; not a goal, but an end or a singularity arrived at by degrees.
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Question-dodger.
The rats in endless waves, taken alone, all else held aside.
Do they look like they could be a mindless invasion force?
I didn't dodge the question, I gave my interpretation of their presence. I also didn't say that was the only possible interpretation I simply said "my take".
As for the rest (no need to requote it), I just find that unlikely. Even given the acceptance of the True Slave program, it would be hard pressed to convince people to go ahead and do that voluntarily. Only the most fringe fanatics would accept such a thing by anything other than force, and I do not find the majority of the PF to paint the leadership of the Nation as that kind of fanatical. Different kind of fanatical, certainly, just not really that kind.
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Actually, Lilith, I ran across this while doing some research for another topic.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sansha_Kuvakei
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sansha%27s_Nation_%28Chronicle%29
Your thoughts on this, basically.
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What thoughts, in particular? I'm quite familiar with those two chrons as those were all that existed at the point at which I started doing all my work for True Core way back in the day. Prior to that point, there was no other information about Sansha's Nation because no one really cared besides a few stragglers here and there. So it wasn't much to work with. Since then it got fleshed out a lot more, in some ways I agree with and in some ways that I would personally suggest were horrible decisions. Annoyingly, the ones I generally think were horrible decisions were made by CCP so my differences in it are hardly relevant.
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My impression from you is that you seem very opposed to the Nation being a warlike, conquering entity. I'm curious as to why, precisely. The Sansha and the Amarr are to my knowledge the only two entities in EVE that desire complete galactic conquest. The Amarr because of their religion, and the Nation because of Sansha's utopian vision/his own megalomania.
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I must say that I never got the impression that the Sansha is out for conquest. The reason why they pirate is explained as collecting resources and even new personnel, as far as I remember.
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While Sansha Kuvakei has repeatedly been tagged OOC by CCP and others as a megalomaniac intent on conquering the galaxy, and must have been presented that way to the public by the empires bringing about his downfall, the fact of the matter remains that he never actually got to execute any such plan. The strike against Sansha's Nation by said empires was at best a pre-emptive one. This in effect means that even if we take the chronicles' claims of Sansha's long-term plans at face value OOC, it could well be viewed as a rather shaky historical assumption IC.
Given this, I for one see absolutely no problem with Sansha loyalists defending the True Slave program (as the use of "lesser" people to make up a servant caste, leaving "better" people free to pursue their dreams) while simultaneously dismissing any claims that Sansha had any plans of galactic conquest as "inner cluster propaganda". The continued aggression of Sansha ships in space are likewise easily explained in that the Nation never actually surrendered, and that the crews are still fighting valiantly in a defensive war against foreign aggressors.
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Katla put it perfectly. (Hey Katla! How's things!? :D )
Basically the way I look at it is all that you have is historical record, and that historical record is written as in character. Of course the Empires (who wrote the history) that banded together (the Amarr reluctantly I would like to stress. . .) are going to paint an empire they committed mass-genocide against as being a warlike monster. Why would they say otherwise?
But if you really look over the history of it, the only thing that really says that Sansha's Nation was warlike and that Sansha was a megalomaniac built on galactic conquest is that historical record. At no point did the Nation ever actually attack anyone until it was on the brink of destruction because the entire Universe was against it.
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Those are quite good points. Reconsidering my position on the matter in light of it, hmm.
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Katla put it perfectly. (Hey Katla! How's things!? :D )
Basically the way I look at it is all that you have is historical record, and that historical record is written as in character. Of course the Empires (who wrote the history) that banded together (the Amarr reluctantly I would like to stress. . .) are going to paint an empire they committed mass-genocide against as being a warlike monster. Why would they say otherwise?
But if you really look over the history of it, the only thing that really says that Sansha's Nation was warlike and that Sansha was a megalomaniac built on galactic conquest is that historical record. At no point did the Nation ever actually attack anyone until it was on the brink of destruction because the entire Universe was against it.
That's essentially how I look at it too, IC and out. Now, I think IC we reach different places, starting from there. :D
But taking the 'Sansha isn't really so bad, though maybe there were a couple regrettable misjudgments' approach (as my character does), saying it is all a tragic misunderstanding and implying that it is empire propaganda is a pretty fun strategy to pursue.
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But taking the 'Sansha isn't really so bad, though maybe there were a couple regrettable misjudgments' approach (as my character does), saying it is all a tragic misunderstanding and implying that it is empire propaganda is a pretty fun strategy to pursue.
If by 'pretty fun' you mean 'guarantees a difficult argument with Ashar in Summit,' you are quite correct.
...Had you in a rhetorical headlock a few times. To your credit, you never did say 'uncle.'
As for the rest (no need to requote it), I just find that unlikely. Even given the acceptance of the True Slave program, it would be hard pressed to convince people to go ahead and do that voluntarily. Only the most fringe fanatics would accept such a thing by anything other than force, and I do not find the majority of the PF to paint the leadership of the Nation as that kind of fanatical. Different kind of fanatical, certainly, just not really that kind.
So I just read that part over and was like, wait, what?
You don't think the citizens of the nation would jump at the chance to become True Citizens, to be well-to-do within their society and get free implants?
I'm not sure I understand.
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You don't think the citizens of the nation would jump at the chance to become True Citizens, to be well-to-do within their society and get free implants?
I don't think that many people would give up their ability to experience thought on their own to become a slave-soldier that will not reclone when it dies. I don't think that a "hivemindey" concept would be necessary to be a "True Citizen", and I don't think that the "free implants" that take away one's ability to make a decision on their own, so to speak, is necessary to be "well-to-do within their society".
In a nutshell I think that you are making too many assumptions of inclusion.
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I think you need to tell me why TrueCitizens sound like TrueSlaves in your post. I think either you're reading it that way, or I missed some crucial piece of PF. And I think you can just say 'hivemind-like,' or 'mental collective' if you want to avoid the Izzyspeak.
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For the record, Ashar, I'm not ignoring this, I'm trying to think about how to phrase something in a way that will be clearly understood.
I'll get a response to you in the next day or so.
In a convoluted nutshell, I can sum it up in the sense that they were named "True Slaves", not "True Awesome People".
But putting the entirety of the thought into words that make sense without rambling outside of my head has been difficult with this throbbing migraine that I have had today due to my complete lack of nicotine as I am trying hard to quit smoking due to health issues arising from it (nothing major if anyone gives a crap, my lungs are showing early signs of not wanting to work, all completely reversible so long as I quit. So. Quit I shall.)
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But putting the entirety of the thought into words that make sense without rambling outside of my head has been difficult with this throbbing migraine that I have had today due to my complete lack of nicotine as I am trying hard to quit smoking due to health issues arising from it (nothing major if anyone gives a crap, my lungs are showing early signs of not wanting to work, all completely reversible so long as I quit. So. Quit I shall.)
My best wishes are with you on that. You can do it. But you know that. :D
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Oh damn where was that epic Sansha-pro sansha history poast that Hali did back in teh day when you need it?
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Remember that piece... darned if I know where it went. :s
Anyway, a few thoughts:
1. Sansha Kuvakei is D-E-A-D. Why do I believe this? Difficult question, but a simple answer, I doubt that the Empires at the time of the war could allow Sansha to live.
2. Sansha Kuvakei is A-L-I-V-E. But not as the original Sansha. The Sansha that lives to today is the culmination and creation of the living True Slaves that can't go on without a Sansha. Think about it for a moment please. The True Slaves are completely loyal and completely obedient to Sansha. Without him they can't do a thing to progress and are just stuck doing the same thing, but this doesn't concur with the PF knowledge that the Nation is rebuilding itself. So someone, or something is giving it a direction. The easiest answer to that is that the True Slaves build an image of what and how and who Sansha is and stands for, strives for and just created a Sansha to follow. For all intends and purposes most True Slaves have accepted this Sansha as the Sansha. I assume that to ones that create True Power and True Creation are the ones that follow the rebuild Sansha.
3. Sansha Kuvakei is N-O-T Sansha Kuvakei. Following out of number two it presents a split in the Nation, or rather just a sense of direction. On one hand you have the True Slaves that are growing in some direction (whatever that might be) and rebuilding and on the other hand you've got the unaware splinter factions that just rebuild and throw themselves at the 'enemy', or everyone not Nation. The latter are the unreasonable types, or the ones that would raid the Empire, kidnap and turn people and be a general pest and horror. Going further into 0.0 you get the 'adapted' True, who still do exactly the same, but also are growing into some kind of direction. I assume that some True Slave cells have not connected to a new Sansha or are unwilling to do so.
4. Sansha Kuvakei is N-O-T human. Whatever else he might be, a current Sansha would be the sum of the entire Nation and all the knowledge there of. I'm not sure I can even image a person like that. One of the main points of advantage Sansha has is simply networking, in a computer sense. If he needs a plan he can just think it up, send the idea out to literally millions of minds to think about it and come up with a plan the same way. Which would reduce Sansha to basicly the pivotal role in the Nation, he makes the decisions to go ahead with anything, but the actual thinking is done by the True Slaves.
5. Sansha Kuvakei has A plan. I'd pay a 100 billion if I knew what it was.
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The Burning Life does not explicitly answer all of your points, particularly given the way in which the book handles its Sansha "phase". But it does shed some light on some of it, and I'd encourage anyone with a particular interest in that faction to read the novel.