Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: Mathra Hiede on 22 Apr 2010, 00:29
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Please dont take anything posted here personally, and as a minor disclaimer this is my own thoughts and doesn't nescesarily reflect the truth of events.
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After reading The Burning Life, and musing a bit about how in the CCP fiction the typical Capsuleer is portrayed I started to think about how the characters we RP as actually relate to EVE Fiction.
In my mind, the form of a capsuleer that has been active for longer than a year or so would start to "suffer" from the things you see in alot of the fiction (or at least what I have read) where the Capsuleer grows apart from his/her humanity to a point where being out of the pod is an annoying need, where we become flimsy and breakable beings as opposed to gods of the sky.
The dominance of the Capsuleers is also what seems to be a large part in their development of a "god complex" or at least a complete disregard for anything that isn't of their kind.
Warping their behaviours untill they seem less like humans and more like a species of demi-gods that only share a physical similarity to their human cousins.
Thus - I ask, are we RPing our characters as TOO Human?
Alot of the people I see value the lives of their Non-Capsule capable men and women, yet will quite happily go out and blow a few hundred thousand out of the sky in a belt/mission/other ships.
Does this show the character to be very narrow minded or a seperation from the truth of the issue, which is that most capsuleers really don't give a flying F*** as to whatever happens to the normal humans in any given circumstance.
I know my character, personally, doesn't care too much if people die, he sees it as something that just "is" in New Eden, Capsuleers kill and other people die.
The other thing is we all seem to be very human and normal in our responses and actions, ie. we all care, believe, fear, hope and are generally affected largely by the goings on around us.
Would a Capsuleer be truly like this? Would they still feel emotions the same, and if so are they triggered the same way?
Do we feel and care more for the ships we fly than the simple human forms we know as other people?
Feel free to discuss this at length, correct me and tear my ideas down but I thought I would just post this as a thought provoker on the issue.
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One thing that would matter would likely be amount of combat and casualties the capsuleer has. And of course, the amount of time the capsuleer spends in a pod. For example, I'm a casual player, so I assume that my characters are rather much doing other things in flesh and jump in the capsule when it benefits them, not the other way of staying in the capsule until leaving cannot be avoided.
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Personally, I don't agree with much of this God complex at all.
Why are capsuleers in-game (and not in novels etc.) losing their humanity?
- It is a game, most people know it and don't give a rat's ass about NPCs, but can go all dramatic over one little podding. The fiction tries to represent the uncaring attitude about NPC as detachment/inhumanity. Has nothing to do with being a pod-pilot.
- Your traditional senses don't see anything associated with dying people. Nobody is bothered by seeing neatly packaged meat in the supermarket, but many people today have difficulty watching an animal get slaughtered. It is the detachment of button-push wars. Has nothing to do with being a pod-pilot.
- There simply aren't any non-capsuleers to interact with. Obviously if the only living beings you meet and can interact with are capsuleers, it would be only a matter of time before you start to consider others as meaningless and not worthy of empathy.
- Being able to use clones to avoid some deaths. This would have some God complex effect, but since everyone around you also has the same thing, it would certainly do much to humble you.
As said, I consider the God-complex and dehumanizing effect in fiction to be largely an effort to retrofit the peculiarities of the game-enviroment into it together with some real effects (button push detachment) that are not exclusive to the pod.
If I disregard the dehumanizing effects of the game-mechanics, I don't see a lot of particular factors that would contribute more to a God-complex and dehumanization other than being able to have clones.
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After reading The Burning Life, and musing a bit about how in the CCP fiction the typical Capsuleer is portrayed I started to think about how the characters we RP as actually relate to EVE Fiction.
In my mind, the form of a capsuleer that has been active for longer than a year or so would start to "suffer" from the things you see in alot of the fiction (or at least what I have read) where the Capsuleer grows apart from his/her humanity to a point where being out of the pod is an annoying need, where we become flimsy and breakable beings as opposed to gods of the sky.
I haven't read TBL, so I may be misunderstanding but you seem to be describing a capsuleer as becoming physically weaker over time spent in the same clone. If that's so, I'd assume the reason is muscular atrophy due to spending the bulk of one's time suspended in pod fluid and not using the body's muscles (nor needing them). For this reason, I always get kinda annoyed at the prevalence of uber out-of-pod fighting machines... genetically enhanced martial space-arts masters, crackshot super marksmen with twenty blaster rifles slung across their back and thermonuclear hand-grenades, I've seen people pose all sorts of shit in their RP. I'm rather fond of saying "CCP left physical attributes off of our character sheets for a reason...", but they're having fun so whatever. I just let the supersoldier RPers play supersoldier with each other and try to stay as far away from it as I can because to my understanding capsuleers are gods of the sky. Keywords: of the sky.
Thus - I ask, are we RPing our characters as TOO Human?
I think yes and no. I play Havo as being pretty insane, based somewhat off of my understanding/interpretation of "Capsuleer Dementia" as described in by the character Aria Jenneth, who incidentally influenced part of his outlook quite directly. One day, I'll draw him up using Hamish's template - I think a lot of people would be quite surprised by what it would reveal about my character. Anyway, he places no value on human life at all, except in the sense that it can be used in any number of ways as a means to any number of ends. But he didn't become that way as soon as he became a capsuleer. He became that way after blowing up so many ships and losing so many ships he lost count of the bodies. Some time after he lost count, he stopped feeling guilty about losing count. Some time after that, he stopped feeling guilty about the killing. Then he stopped feeling the same way he used to feel altogether. He still feels, but he feels from a much different perspective and mindset, now; more instinctive and predatory. If not for all the killing, I don't think his mindset would've changed so much; if he were primarily a miner, he would probably still be quite human in his outlook.
I should note, though, that I've seen non-combat characters played as having rather non-human outlooks. A pragmatic market alt I know that's played as a full-on character values ISK and efficiency of profit above all, I bet she'd sign off on some wholesale murder if it would be net a profit - reminds me of Mordin Solus from Mass Effect 2, only with money instead of science. So I'm not saying only combat pilots would lose their connection with their pre-capsule humanity, just that I think it would be the most likely reason a pilot would.
Now, it could be like Merdaneth suggests with his first two points:
- It is a game, most people know it and don't give a rat's ass about NPCs, but can go all dramatic over one little podding. The fiction tries to represent the uncaring attitude about NPC as detachment/inhumanity. Has nothing to do with being a pod-pilot.
- Your traditional senses don't see anything associated with dying people. Nobody is bothered by seeing neatly packaged meat in the supermarket, but many people today have difficulty watching an animal get slaughtered. It is the detachment of button-push wars. Has nothing to do with being a pod-pilot.
..except that I think both of those have everything to do with being a pod pilot. Only a pod pilot can wade into an NPC Battleship fleet plus support with just his/her own battleship and a few drones and completely annihilate them. Only a capsuleer can "push butan kill 5 thousand people". Yes, five thousand people die when an NPC BS kills an NPC BS, but it wasn't just "push butan" for them, it was an epic battle. Yes, a single high ranking politician can order a planetary bombardment and kill millions, but look at how high ranking politicians in EVE are portrayed in the PF.. not many shining beacons of humanity among them, and several actually are capsuleers themselves.
I think one of the reasons a lot of peoples' characters harp on the "all those innocent people!" bit is that some folks like to play the good guy. If you're trying to be the good guy, disregard for human life probably doesn't mesh well with that. It doesn't look/sound very heroic. Of course, there are exceptions. She may post here herself, but I'll use my corpmate Zuzanna Alondra as an example; she's having fun with Du'uma Fiisi's whole bad guy evil terrorist thing, but her character ICly clings to good guy ideals even as time and the series of cruel and inexcusable acts she participates in as a director of the corporation grows longer and slowly erodes her morality. Of course, Havohej encourages her and it's pretty fun OOC to watch her character struggle to find rationalizations so that she can swallow what the corp does herself. Outwardly, she appears to be clinging to a 'human' mentality, but it's not actually the player trying to play a 'human' combat-focused capsuleer.
The other thing is we all seem to be very human and normal in our responses and actions, ie. we all care, believe, fear, hope and are generally affected largely by the goings on around us.
Would a Capsuleer be truly like this? Would they still feel emotions the same, and if so are they triggered the same way?
Do we feel and care more for the ships we fly than the simple human forms we know as other people?
I think the more 'slippage' (to borrow from Stephen King) toward dementia a capsuleer has had, the more different the triggers for the emotions would become, but all the same emotions would be there. If the capsuleer's personality leans toward the predatory end of the spectrum, I think some emotions would even be more intense.
Specifically as regards the "God Complex" idea, when I hear god complex, I think "This guy things he's omnipotent/all-knowing. I don't see that as a likely common trait among capsuleers, but I do believe it's reasonable that there would be a healthy amount of arrogance, maybe a bit of recklessness and empowerment (in space, not out-of-pod). I believe it likely that there would be a sense of entitlement due to being part of the capsuleer class and arrogance toward the lesser class (humans) and other capsuleers seen to be less skilled with only grudging respect for fellow capsuleers seen to be more talented (because of course this means they're more dangerous).
Feel free to discuss this at length, correct me and tear my ideas down
Tearing ideas down isn't our thing here at Backstage ;)
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..except that I think both of those have everything to do with being a pod pilot. Only a pod pilot can wade into an NPC Battleship fleet plus support with just his/her own battleship and a few drones and completely annihilate them. Only a capsuleer can "push butan kill 5 thousand people". Yes, five thousand people die when an NPC BS kills an NPC BS, but it wasn't just "push butan" for them, it was an epic battle. Yes, a single high ranking politician can order a planetary bombardment and kill millions, but look at how high ranking politicians in EVE are portrayed in the PF.. not many shining beacons of humanity among them, and several actually are capsuleers themselves.
I'm honestly considering to have my character assume that there is practically no crew on EvE ships, NPC and player ships. There is no verifiable evidence that there is crew, and a lot of evidence that there isn't any crew. Packaging and moving ships for example, apparently the crew is magically added again when you activate the ship. Never any crew salary that needs to be paid, I have unused all around New Eden, some even in-space, for years on end. Whenever I board them, they are all fully crewed, never have to pay anything.
Let's not even talk about the huge amount of NPC ships destroyed. If a NPC non-capsuleer battleship requires even more crew that a capsuleer ship, we are talking about millions upon millions of deaths each day. I can imagine use factories pumping out battleships by the dozen, but you can't manufacture crew that easily. It makes a lot more sense to me for ships to hardly have any crew than a lot of crew.
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I agree wholeheartedly with you in regards to the disassociation of capsuleers towards the consequences of their actions. It's a very human flaw and actually evident in our RL's as well, we don't see those people who are slaves in anything but name who produce our cheap consumer products, or who mine minerals for our hightech gadgets. Denial or plain lack of care are self preserving instincts that help us stay sane.
On another note I'm not sure that I'd agree that Laerise, or most of the characters I know of, are really insane in the sense of the word. Yes, they have different values and differing world views, but clinically insane... I don't know, Scagga can tell us more about that stuff for sure, at least he's more of an expert in that field than I will ever be.
What stands out to me though is that there are two distinct groups of (RP'd) capsuleers.
As one extreme we have the true megalomaniacs who gets themselves completely lost in their role as pod pilots, who enjoy to openly show their power and influence for both self gratification as well as intimidation of others. They like to gloat about their deeds in public and are generally very fond of pointing out how little they still have in common with the dirtside plebs of the common people.
A, to me, very stringent theme in this group is transhumanism and a tendency to view or express comments towards the gameworld through glasses that are very much tinted in the pitch black of early 90s cyberpunk.
The other extreme I ran into is the apologetic philantropist who seeks to reconcile himself with his plebejan origins in an attempt to maintain the facade of a 'normal' life, whatever that means.
It is this group that goes to quite an extent to make sure that loss of life (especially on 'their' side) is kept to a minimum, or at least not made public in the same negative way the megalomaniac faction preferrs to do it. These pilots usually have some pet project or ideological niche they stick to, their own little perfect world that allows them to write off the atrocities they cause as either insignificant, accidental or balanced out by 'the good' they do.
Of course a variety of other stereotypes exists, the two above are just, in my experience, the most prevalent, and neither the former nor the latter is 'better' in any way, they are just two completely different sets of mind.
What interrests me the most is how a character progresses from one end of the spectrum and back again, how their attitudes change over time when they are confronted with the results of their actions, both positive and negative.
To answer the OP though, I guess it's really up to the individual spectator to decide if the more human side of capsuleerdom portrayed by many in RP is correct or not.
TBL certainly showed a good example of how a character of a player not concerned with the moralities of the RP-scene would react to outside influence. He simply forgot about all those insignificant, distant people who man his ships, crowd the stations of his alliance and generally keep things running for him. His main focus is his own, ghettoed society of capsuleers and, like so many people in RL, he couldn't care less for those who don't concern him personally.
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..except that I think both of those have everything to do with being a pod pilot. Only a pod pilot can wade into an NPC Battleship fleet plus support with just his/her own battleship and a few drones and completely annihilate them. Only a capsuleer can "push butan kill 5 thousand people". Yes, five thousand people die when an NPC BS kills an NPC BS, but it wasn't just "push butan" for them, it was an epic battle. Yes, a single high ranking politician can order a planetary bombardment and kill millions, but look at how high ranking politicians in EVE are portrayed in the PF.. not many shining beacons of humanity among them, and several actually are capsuleers themselves.
I'm honestly considering to have my character assume that there is practically no crew on EvE ships, NPC and player ships. There is no verifiable evidence that there is crew, and a lot of evidence that there isn't any crew. Packaging and moving ships for example, apparently the crew is magically added again when you activate the ship. Never any crew salary that needs to be paid, I have unused all around New Eden, some even in-space, for years on end. Whenever I board them, they are all fully crewed, never have to pay anything.
Let's not even talk about the huge amount of NPC ships destroyed. If a NPC non-capsuleer battleship requires even more crew that a capsuleer ship, we are talking about millions upon millions of deaths each day. I can imagine use factories pumping out battleships by the dozen, but you can't manufacture crew that easily. It makes a lot more sense to me for ships to hardly have any crew than a lot of crew.
Reading TBL will help you a lot in that regard Merd, I'll permit myself to bring out a minor spoiler by saying that most ship crew are in stasis in rescue pods for the most part of the journey and only woken up when they are actually needed for something.
I can well imagine that quite a few people are willing to sign up for contracts for capsuleer ships. Considering that there will be quite a lot of standardisation in ship design ( redundancy and interchangability being the most valid reasons for this), I am sure that almost every major station (each housing millions of inhabitants) can very well supply the crews for your ships and modules by simply storing them in stasis until needed.
Imagine you could sign a two year contract as capsuleer ship crewman, lets say you have a degree as an engineer in electronics, and that this contract would make you enough money to live a life in luxury for at least the next couple of decades. Sure, you might be unfortunate enough to be shipped off to god-knows-where in 0.0 and killed, but then you might as well be transferred to some missioning raven / mining barge that will never see any action - meaning you will spend those two years mostly in stasis - literally making money while you sleep !
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TBL's portrayal of capsuleers is taking into account the 95% of non-RPers in EVE which, for all intents and purposes, seem to be quite accurately portrayed in the book. True to the capsuleers in TBL, they don't see the consequences of their actions because they don't give a rat's ass about PF! :P
They did mention a "precious few" have contact to the outside world...well, I suppose that can mean us, the roleplayers? Hell, Seriphyn knows the nature of himself, he knows he is a capsuleer and he is thus an egomaniac (and as mentioned people have a problem with this IC/OOC/whatever). However, pay attention to the capsuleer in "Her Painted Selves (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=05-08-08)".
This capsuleer is portrayed as quite human, not sociopathic, but otherwise having a very broad and wide view of the world, but most importantly he is portrayed as a Federation loyalist. In this instance, he doesn't care about just himself, he fights for the Federation, but he's not an idealist. He seems to be aware of the consequences of his actions, and has come to terms with it, hence his demeanour.
I would like to think that if there was a "correct" way to RP a capsuleer, it would be like the one in that chron. Also, skin patch over capsuleer socket! Why's that? We don't have to stick to our parts of the station at all. Slap on a skin patch, and we can be anywhere we want, and not be basked in the limelight of being a capsuleer amongst the general public.
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I've been intrigued by the physical and psychological side-effects understood to be common (i.e. not unheard of, but not inevitable) and wondered what possibilities I might pursue in those regards. Considering their path to pod life was as instruments of the State bureaucracy and the Caldari have had the most opportunity to study these conditions, a number of programs and safeguards would have been put in place for them. For the sake of sparking new ideas and spinoffs, I'll share a few ideas surrounding side effects of informorphs as it were that I'm toying with integrating into the backstory.
Flight time regulations, fairly self explanatory and addresses both physical atrophy and extended mental stresses.
Frequent psychological testing and performance monitoring, this may only seem plausible to those who portray close association with major factions.
Physical sensory activity, this requires a lot of personalization. I started with the idea of what it must be like to "sense" through the ship's equipment. For Yaan, especially, this is a central aspect of character. Her functions were to take readings, listen to broadcasts, etc and report directly on them.
Instruments capable of detailing vast surroundings down to the molecular composition and precisely indicate the distance of objects entire AUs away down to the nanometer, sensing a massive range of transmissions across entire bands of organization and filtering every one as a separate and distinct signal (clean, cluttered, or entirely random), feeling the amperage and voltage vary as power flows through your hull (skin?), etc.
To counterbalance this certainly self-perception-bending time in the pod, the capsuleer program Syyl and Yaan completed highly encouraged as much sensory stimuli as possible while not on duty. This serves as segue to some completely non-relevant character bits like Yaan's culinary skills and Syyl's green thumb, their love of Intaki symphony. The last actually has a lot of meat to it, affluence that rubbed off from their proximity to political power and high society, interest in their ethnic heritage, and orchestras I think might be the most analogous to the celestial experience (2001/Blue Danube if I must be cliche' :9). As I said, takes a lot of personalizing.
Exercise and mediation, focusing mostly on cardiovascular health (heart attack from stressful encounter not a good use of State assets). A decent length cardio routine, minimum of light resistance work-out, and for them I'm pondering something similar to Tai-Chi as a throw to the Achura side of their heritage.
What does your capsuleer do to stay sane? :9
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Casiella spends a lot of her time doing things other than flying. Not just as a way to explain my limited play time, but also because a great deal of my game activity revolves around trade, research, and manufacturing. I remain unclear on how much of this requires use of the pod (given that we train skills the "capsuleer way"), but definitely this results in much less loss of life.
Now, she's odd and quirky and 'insane' by some lights anyway, but those don't necessarily stem from spending hours trucking goods around the Republic.
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I'm honestly considering to have my character assume that there is practically no crew on EvE ships, NPC and player ships. There is no verifiable evidence that there is crew, and a lot of evidence that there isn't any crew.
The Chrons "Hands of a Killer" and "All These Lives are Fit to Ruin" explicitly state capsuleer ships are crewed, or the short story thing that explains how the capule eliminates the need for bridge/command crew on a ship which strongly implies non-capsuleer ships are fully crewed. I don't think a lack of an in-game mechanic for crew micromanagement is any reason to deny the existence of crew as a player.. it's like how some people use a lack of game mechanic to support RP that doesn't happen in space (i.e.: RP that isn't PvP) to ignore/invalidate/urdoinitrong other peoples' RP. It's just another one of those things where PF contradicts the game world (i.e.: PF clearly depicts capsuleers being out of their pods and doing things in the world, but there's currently no game mechanic for that) and we have to decide how much of the contradiction to ignore for the sake of our RP. Everybody draws that line where they're most comfortable and they're entitled to their opinion just as you are to yours, but I wouldn't go that far myself.
If Merdaneth were to start completely ignoring the existence of crew IC, it's obviously your choice in how you play your character and I personally think it would be quite interesting to see a presumably faithful Amarr loyalist take that position - especially in public! - but I'm sure you know he'd be called all sorts of insane.
EDIT: Also, Good to have you at Backstage, Merd :)
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Like several other RP characters, Saxon spends little time in his pod. He is a husband, father, philosopher, political lobbyist and (sometimes) writer who takes to space occasionally. The vast majority of his time is spent interacting with people in a real and personal way.
For him, being suspended in a pod remains artificial and somewhat uncomfortable.
And, I've often thought that assembling a ship should impose a fee and that all assembled ships should have a residual maintenance cost, like office rent, to cover things like crew salaries and fuel cell replacement/recharging. A repackaged ship, "mothballed" as it were, wouldn't have the fee.
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx194/saxonhawke/cap008.jpg)
"Wake up guys, the captain wants to duel!"
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If your character has a Mission, or has Faith in anything larger than themselves, then he/she can quite efficiently, through natural human mechanisms, avoid turning into a psychopath monster.
Throughout human history people with Right on their side has been able to do all kinds of atrocities without least bit of psychological effect on their sanity.
That is one of the reasons that Lall is an Amarrian with strong religious beliefs.
About muscles atrophying in the pod, don't be silly.
They use electronic shocks on the muscles of coma patients to keep the muscle tone of their limbs adequate so that their circulation does not get impeded.
If you have direct route to the limbic system through the pod pilot implants you could enter the pod as a twig and come out as a body builder after a few weeks.
Dehumanization as a psychological tool has been around since forever and it enables people to do all kinds of things, it does not turn you into someone that feels that all human life is meaningless, it just means that Their lives are meaningless, whomever They are is defined by your beliefs and world view.
Simple example of dehumanization is whenever You think that They are no good/worth it.
Concentration camps, slavery and wars are just another end of the spectrum.
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If your character has a Mission, or has Faith in anything larger than themselves, then he/she can quite efficiently, through natural human mechanisms, avoid turning into a psychopath monster.
Throughout human history people with Right on their side has been able to do all kinds of atrocities without least bit of psychological effect on their sanity.
I'd suggest that that works both ways.
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Throughout human history people with Right on their side has been able to do all kinds of atrocities without least bit of psychological effect on their sanity.
I think saying "It's okay to do this atrocity because my cause is righteous!" is insanity in itself. That's one of the key ideas behind the way I portray Havohej, in fact :)
don't be silly.
Not really necessary, just saying.
They use electronic shocks on the muscles of coma patients to keep the muscle tone of their limbs adequate so that their circulation does not get impeded.
If you have direct route to the limbic system through the pod pilot implants you could enter the pod as a twig and come out as a body builder after a few weeks.
I don't think that if a bodybuilder fell into a coma the minor electronic shocks used to keep their muscles adequate for circulation would have them still able to bench press a Buick after a year. I'm not suggesting that capsuleers would become wheelchair-bound invalids for time in the pod, I'm suggesting that when you suddenly spent more of your time suspended than walking/running/lifting/generally being an active human being like you used to, you'd lose a bit of your oomph in those areas after a while (depending on how much time is actually spent IN pod; Havo's one of those "usually in the pod" sort of Capsuleers as opposed to Saxon's example of only being in the pod when necessary.
Dehumanization as a psychological tool has been around since forever and it enables people to do all kinds of things, it does not turn you into someone that feels that all human life is meaningless, it just means that Their lives are meaningless, whomever They are is defined by your beliefs and world view.
Simple example of dehumanization is whenever You think that They are no good/worth it.
Concentration camps, slavery and wars are just another end of the spectrum.
Yeah, such as "Those nasty Minmatars" or "Those evil slavers", followed by "but we're still good people!" I suppose a lot of characters would adopt views like that rather than dive straight into inhumanity/dementia/whatever you wanna call it. Probably even more people, if you accept the assumption that most people generally do want to be/see themselves as/be seen as 'the good guy'. I don't think the average person 'wants' to be bad (though they may like indulging those dark urges through roleplaying a villain in a game :p)
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I'm honestly considering to have my character assume that there is practically no crew on EvE ships, NPC and player ships. There is no verifiable evidence that there is crew, and a lot of evidence that there isn't any crew.
The Chrons "Hands of a Killer" and "All These Lives are Fit to Ruin" explicitly state capsuleer ships are crewed, or the short story thing that explains how the capule eliminates the need for bridge/command crew on a ship which strongly implies non-capsuleer ships are fully crewed.
Let us just say that I consider Chrons, PF and other source just as much an opinion as yours or mine. If my character doesn't notice any crew, they might just as well be not there. In the past our own PF stated that the world was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth. And woe to those challenging RL PF!
In short, if I don't see evidence for crew, and see evidence for a lack of crew, I might consider playing it like I don't have crew, and in a makebelieve world like EVE, if enough players get convinced there is no crew, there won't be, since large parts of the world do reside just in our imaginations. The only NPC that regularly speaks to me is Scotty the docking manager.
Some things we need to handwave, but I'm just wondering if its not easier to assume few or no crew which should reduce the need for handwaving. I wouldn't want to answer a question like: 'how much do you pay your crew', or 'can you give me a manifest of your officers'
Additionally, the fact that I can build a ship without spending a single isk (except for the blueprint) sort of suggest to me that the crew salaries are definitely not included anywhere.
Of course, I wouldn't want to force my views on anyone and deny their crew as well, so I would probably explain them that I have had my battleships especially slave-rigged to require only a minimal crew.
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As it stands, ship crews (according to TBL) basically just handle cleaning, maintenance, and related lower-order functions, remaining in stasis until needed. But then again, Blood Raiders do harvest the crews of our wrecked ships to such an extent that it's a significant portion of their activity.
For whatever that's worth, anyway. But players who consider official lore as "opinions" may not necessarily play in the same universe as those that consider them IC fact.
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Or we all just to decide to be a bit more flexible and ignorant and regard people whose world view differs from ours as plainly insane :) imo thats the more fun way.
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Let us just say that I consider Chrons, PF and other source just as much an opinion as yours or mine. If my character doesn't notice any crew, they might just as well be not there.
This is a very dangerous line to walk. I think PF can be interpreted in many different ways, but to simply dismiss it seems unwise as it is the foundation on which all RP is based, the gravity which holds everything together.
Your examples of flat-earth and geo-centric universe theories are good points that accepted wisdom isn't always correct, but I don't think they apply in terms of something like ships' crews. As a capsuleer, you are loaded into you pod which is then implanted into your ship. It's true you never see or interact with the crew, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.
(http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx194/saxonhawke/Dominix-1.jpg)
And if there isn't a crew, then who are all these windows/lights for?
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Is that a chromed up Dominix? :eek:
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Is that a chromed up Dominix? :eek:
Xzibit hooked me up. That's how I roll, yo.
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Yo dawg! I herd u liek dronez so we put some ogres in ur gardes so u can carebear while u carebear
:brilliant:
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And, I've often thought that assembling a ship should impose a fee and that all assembled ships should have a residual maintenance cost, like office rent, to cover things like crew salaries and fuel cell replacement/recharging. A repackaged ship, "mothballed" as it were, wouldn't have the fee.
I try not to fly ships that aren't insured. I count the insurance cost as covering crew and maintenance costs.
IRL the running cost for a RL carrier is about 20% of it's buy price per year
That's a bit daft in some ways, but hey, my alt charges me isk to carry stuff for me in her hauler...
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I imagine that my characters have all switched out the little red crosses on the overview with little orc faces, and that those little orc faces all have tags next to them reading "EVIL". And that makes my characters able to sleep at night, despite the xp value for killing fake orcs in EVE being shitty.
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My character is something of a transplant. Taking my earthly personality and placing it in the situation that is being an eve pod pilot. Elevated to the position of immortality and given control of a ship life suddenly becomes, lo and behold, one big game. Non-capsuleers would be treated the same way I would think of anybody else who died that I didn't know existed, or was only aware of on an intellectual level. That is to say, when they die, it's a footnote at best and not even a thought at worst.
So when I pop into the character and am loaded onto that ship, the crews are so much distant people. Dying away in someplace, while I'm here enjoying immortality. It's just like in life, a lot of people die every day, do you care about all of them? Or even know about it? Capsuleers who hang around other capsuleers all the time (for the most part) would end up thus. People they don't know about or are only vaugely aware of are dying but the things they care about are other capsuleers, whom don't die.
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I've always envisioned capsuleers as the 'necessary evil'. They carry with them an aura, or a presence of strength, especially amongst their non-pilot counterparts that either inspires or cringes. Given their perspectives, they would be socially awkward, too used to melding directly with a ship and forgetting some of the etiquette of actually having to physically do things than simply think and achieve instant gratification. In that sense I would see them already losing their attachment with reality, becoming increasingly impatient with having to 'waste time with such formalities'.
Personally, I see players living it up on planets and having normal lives/families is a bit of a stretch. Something in prime fiction that has always stuck with me is that due to physical adjustments required to be pilots, capsuleers are much more susceptible to infections and viruses, so trolling around bars and nightclubs a bit immersion-breaking for me these days. And yes, I'm one of those people that encouraged/engaged in it way too often myself.
But, you know, I'm one of those people that likes dark, gritty science fiction. :o
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Given their perspectives, they would be socially awkward, too used to melding directly with a ship and forgetting some of the etiquette of actually having to physically do things than simply think and achieve instant gratification. In that sense I would see them already losing their attachment with reality, becoming increasingly impatient with having to 'waste time with such formalities'.
So... yeah, like gamers? :)
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Something in prime fiction that has always stuck with me is that due to physical adjustments required to be pilots, capsuleers are much more susceptible to infections and viruses
Now that I either never knew or forgot about it. If you have a link, I'll pop it in the 'did you know?'
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Personally, I see players living it up on planets and having normal lives/families is a bit of a stretch. Something in prime fiction that has always stuck with me is that due to physical adjustments required to be pilots, capsuleers are much more susceptible to infections and viruses,
They are? (Serious question). Where can I find more about this? Cos that could affect Ulf quite a lot.
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There are references to it in the Booster article, but that's more supporting why Boosters don't affect capsuleers while in pod too negatively. I didn't see any suggestions there that pointed to having a weak immune system in general. That is something I would find a bit odd, especially considering the presence of nano-machines and implants in the setting. Though maybe I'm taking too many cues from a book I read recently, Infoquake (http://www.amazon.com/Infoquake-Trilogy-David-Louis-Edelman/dp/1844166457/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271997584&sr=8-1)?. As nano-machines were used there to regulate pretty much all bodily systems.
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Yeah, sorry about that guys. I could swear I read it somewhere, but I spent all night reading up and I can't find anything to support that. What I can attest to is that there are neural implants needed to utilize capsules, but not much else.
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Yeah, sorry about that guys. I could swear I read it somewhere, but I spent all night reading up and I can't find anything to support that. What I can attest to is that there are neural implants needed to utilize capsules, but not much else.
I didn't find that either, but I did find this and it has some information dealing with the topic:
The Capsule and the Clone (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Capsule_and_the_Clone)
Specific point of interest:
pods saw some use among those select few able to handle the intense nausea, hallucinations and general mental instability engendered by prolonged occupancy.
Kinda lends credence to the fact that the greatest inaccuracy is that we contend our pilots never leave their pods.
Another bit of info that's a bit off-topic, but may be something people forget:
The Jovians had held the official patent on the technology since releasing it to the Caldari
Caldari had it first. :o
Also, I've been finding over time that the Jove are complete assholes. Did you know that they directly assisted Sansha in his True Slave program?
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Let us just say that I consider Chrons, PF and other source just as much an opinion as yours or mine. If my character doesn't notice any crew, they might just as well be not there. In the past our own PF stated that the world was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth. And woe to those challenging RL PF!
In short, if I don't see evidence for crew, and see evidence for a lack of crew, I might consider playing it like I don't have crew, and in a makebelieve world like EVE, if enough players get convinced there is no crew, there won't be, since large parts of the world do reside just in our imaginations. The only NPC that regularly speaks to me is Scotty the docking manager.
Some things we need to handwave, but I'm just wondering if its not easier to assume few or no crew which should reduce the need for handwaving. I wouldn't want to answer a question like: 'how much do you pay your crew', or 'can you give me a manifest of your officers'
Additionally, the fact that I can build a ship without spending a single isk (except for the blueprint) sort of suggest to me that the crew salaries are definitely not included anywhere.
Of course, I wouldn't want to force my views on anyone and deny their crew as well, so I would probably explain them that I have had my battleships especially slave-rigged to require only a minimal crew.
Your ships have crews.
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Your ships have crews.
I would contend that this is hotly contested. There is nowhere in the PF that this is shown, and the links that are constantly shown are ship schematics that... don't exist anymore. A news article written by a roleplayer for the news thing, and various anecdotal things of that nature.
It's great that the schematics from back in beta and early EVE show that, but that information isn't available anywhere save for the places people saved it, as CCP doesn't even acknowledge or talk about it. Without CCP handing down a direct judgement -- which they are not going to do -- this will remain contested and people will play it as they choose to.
The Roleplaying Community hasn't come to an agreement on the fact that the crews even exist, much less whether or not the ships would be capable of having useful escape pods that would save any/all of the crew.
So just making the blanket statement of "Your ships have crews" I think is a bit misleading.
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I've always seen this (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=05-10-09) to indicate that ships have crews, as well as this (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-04-09) and here (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=14-07-05).
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Don't get me wrong, I would attest that they have crews, but those are even inconclusive. The first one is disjointed and makes... very little sense seeming more like a nightmare than like an actual story about life on a ship as a crewman. The second and third don't actually take place on the ship itself in any way, though imply it.
And that is the rub. There's a lot of implication of it, but no actual "The ships have crews, here are their loadouts" besides some old documents that have been out-dated for almost eight years, and are unlikely to be updated because they have no value, mechanics-wise.
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Out of Character we all know ships have crews (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1233328).
Should totally create a ships have crew sticky.
Now, if a character has moved to the point where he/she does not consider any baseline humans to matter, they may not count the humans as crew, but rather fuel. Those closer to a baseline mindset will look on in horror at the character who essentially ignores the very presence of crew.
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Lilith, one could just as easily point out that there's no reason for CCP to keep making the point since it's been clear for 8 years.
And who contends capsuleers never leave their pods? That's contradicted in so much PF, I can't imagine still holding on to that. Some individuals may prefer staying in there, but that's not quite the same.
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Lilith, one could just as easily point out that there's no reason for CCP to keep making the point since it's been clear for 8 years.
Sigh, ok, point being missed here, lemme try again.
And that is the rub. There's a lot of implication of it, but no actual "The ships have crews, here are their loadouts" besides some old documents that have been out-dated for almost eight years, and are unlikely to be updated because they have no value, mechanics-wise.
Look, here's the point: It's going to remain hotly contested because people are going to keep arguing the point because the documents used as reference that "make it clear" have been hidden from public eye for 8 years and only still remain in circulation because some random player saved it, not CCP. It continues to be contested because CCP doesn't care. CCP doesn't care because it doesn't fucking matter. It's so inane and irrelevant that the fact that it becomes argued at all is mindboggling.
What difference does it make? Why do we bother to argue about it? If someone doesn't want to have ship crews, they don't have ship crews. Big deal. Why does anyone care? If you want to have ship crews, you get to have ship crews. Hooray! Good for you.
In the grand scheme, and this is relevant because CCP has taken the same tact, it doesn't make one iota of difference.
And who contends capsuleers never leave their pods? That's contradicted in so much PF, I can't imagine still holding on to that. Some individuals may prefer staying in there, but that's not quite the same.
Uhm, did you read the OP?
In my mind, the form of a capsuleer that has been active for longer than a year or so would start to "suffer" from the things you see in alot of the fiction (or at least what I have read) where the Capsuleer grows apart from his/her humanity to a point where being out of the pod is an annoying need
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I think the point is, who cares?
A capsuleer having a crew is about as relevant as the color of Sansha Kuvakei's underwear. It's an opportunity for personal character development and evolution. A character could technically run a ship without a crew and risk maintinence problems, he could fill it with clowns, or giant pincer robots. What he/she decides to do with it is their choice.
It's funny how obsessive people get with proving this point to others.
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The larger point, as I see it, is Lilith's contention that PF is opinion, not in-universe fact. (And sorry for things I missed, still on my first cup of coffee, my bad. :) )
However, CCP has had recent Chrons on this matter. Cia linked two just from last year, for example, not to mention the OOC quotes from CCP employees in the thread. So CCP's "opinion", if one cares to use that term, has been made quite clear, and it doesn't solely date from beta.
The philosophical point I mentioned above, however, presents a much larger issue, and one I can't quite handle this early... :P
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Many years ago I was a young officer candidate. I had a shiny pip on my uniform collar and a cool black beret that signified I had achieved the physical fitness test requirements to be called a Ranger. I was instructed in many areas including weapons handling, land navigation, military protocol and courtesy and as part of the program took a class called Foundations of Leadership.
In this class we were instructed in classical military thinking and decision making. Military thinking is essentially based on objectives. As in, "we need to take such and such position," or "we need to deliver X supplies to this location."
In determining how to achieve and objective, you determine your resources. Manpower is one of those resources and is factored into the equation. One of the most frightening things for me as an 18-year-old was to look at a mission objective and to be asked to determine the "acceptable loss" of resources. That means how many bullets, vehicles, rations and soldiers would it be okay to lose to obtain the objective.
I found it very difficult to accept the loss of any lives to obtain an objective, but I had a very understanding Captain who explained to me that soldiers accept that possibility when they agree to serve, but that they put their trust in their leadership not to put them in harm's way without justification. That trust was a sacred understanding that went back to the earliest organized armies, he said, and realizing that the men who serve under you are your most valuable resource is the first step to becoming a good officer. I guess that has always stuck with me and influences Saxon's view of his ships' crews.
Of course, history is full of leaders with no regard for the men under them. Napoleon's army froze on the Russian frontier trying to achieve his objective to conquer Europe and anyone who has seen the movie Braveheart can remember William the Longshanks' remarks that dead conscripts don't have to be paid.
If real life officers can be found along the spectrum, why wouldn't we expect to see pod pilots do the same?
One could also note that all human "cargo" loaded aboard an Eve ship is classified as livestock. If you think of scientists, tourists, janitors and exotic dancers as livestock, why would you hold your crew in any higher regard.
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Your ships have crews.
Yup, and they are immortal, because no matter how many wrecks I see, I never see a crew body drifting in space. Just the bodies of capsuleers who's pod has been breached. They always escape in cloaked escape capsules it seems. With drives that can warp away from bubbles apparently, even make their way home from wormholes.
What I'm trying to point out that for me there are no game mechanics that indicate the existence of any crew, and many game mechanics that indicate there is no crew in ships. My suspension of disbelief would suffer a lot less if they eliminated or extremely reduced the suggested crew sizes.
If I plonk down a POS in 0.0 or some wormhole, gather some minerals and build an Apoc, a magically trained crew appears? And if I repackage the Apoc and activate it in the nearest station, a new crew magically appears to crew it? And if I take down the POS, that thousands of trained crew are magically transported through the bubble camps, wormholes or whatever by Interbus to the neares station and appear there? Is the price of the crew included in the price of the POS? Does each ship building array come with free set of tens fo thousands of trained crew? Do you know how much volume a couple of thousand of trained crew would occupy. What gives?
Also, if trained crew is apparently so non-specific that any crew can operate any starship and that you never notice any differences in crew, than it would make sense to automate such tasks. In fact, I fully believe many tasks in EVE are completely automated. If I really had scientists do research jobs for me, or people manning my factories, they surely would have listened to me saying that they should continue researching as long as they still have blueprints, datacores and whatnot, and not do one invention job for 3 hours and then sit on their ass until I can make contact with them again, tjeez, lazy bastards! In other words, its much easier these are standardized automated processes not requiring any crew.
Let's not speak about the amount of food, crew quarters and whatnot needed. If I could convert my Apoc to a hauling or mining apoc, and wouldn't need 1 year of food and other stuff for 5000 heads, I would have almost the cargo capacity of a Freighter! I mean, I wouldn't fit any weapons etc, so ditch all the gunnery crew, feck the tactical and the scanning crew, get rid of the EW crew and the nanite managers.
Simple believing that there are thousands of crew standing to crew a ship by some idiot who can baits in Amarr and just lost his 5th ship of the day is just too much for me. Their burials are included in the base insurance premium (the one you get for free)?
Also, my apologies of uninentionally hijacking this thread by using the crew example in a previous argument.
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I have seen CCP Ginger (I think, or someone else from the storyline team) also note that the lack of an IG mechanic reflecting our crews bothers that whole team.
/me toddles off to poke Hjalti about it.
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never mind
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there were some news articles one time in the alliance tournament
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=1778
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=1779
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=1780
http://www.eveonline.com/mb2/news.asp?nid=1781
But that's just more things that can't be observed.
There are also some ingame items, though I think they might be non-capsule ship related.
Crew (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ship's_Crew) and Pilot (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Stranded_Pilot) for example
There is also one ship description
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Raven_State_Issue
But again, those can't really be observed ingame :ugh:
There's also a mission, with some LCO objects, featuring wrecked ships, and they have some corpses floating in among the wrecks too.
For pay/supplies, you could say that it is fairly abstract, and for example, when you get paid, you get paid "The Captain's Share" of any money, and the crew get paid their share, you just don't see this process happening. There's also the question of what would it add to the game experience to have to manage crew wages, supplies, and ship fuel.
It's all a bit :ugh:
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Those are pretty awesome articles Lou! But yeah, case and point right there.
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The larger point, as I see it, is Lilith's contention that PF is opinion, not in-universe fact
....no, actually my contention is that it's entirely irrelevant and comes down to a layer of RP elitism. "You're doing it wrong because you say you do/don't have a crew".
If you want to say you have a crew? Congratulations, you have a crew. If you want to say it's all run by nanobots you control from the pod? Congratulations, you have nanobots. If you want to say it's run by 4 guys doing whippits? More power to you.
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4 guys doing whippits?
lmao
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....no, actually my contention is that it's entirely irrelevant and comes down to a layer of RP elitism. "You're doing it wrong because you say you do/don't have a crew".
If you want to say you have a crew? Congratulations, you have a crew. If you want to say it's all run by nanobots you control from the pod? Congratulations, you have nanobots. If you want to say it's run by 4 guys doing whippits? More power to you.
I agree completely. If I manage to convince other characters that my ship is run by nanobots, then it is run by nanobots.
Convincing characters of stuff that those character can see easily spot contradictory evidence of is hard. You'll have a hard time convincing people that you are cloaked when they can still see you.
My problem with PF is that it is sometimes interpreted and used by characters as immutable evidence not up for debate. When my character has a different opinion, they give me a link and tell me I cannot argue with the information behind this link, because it is PF. To my character it then would seem that those characters all worship some kind of God 'CCP' and are giving me a page to their bible. Then I try to tell them I don't believe in their God, and certainly don't believe everything their bible says. They tell me I must believe in crew because their Bible says so, and I counter: then show me your crew and explain all these crew oddities. When they come up with a good story, I might even believe them :)
What if you characters suddenly wakes up in the game, in a kind of Incarna like enviroment and gets a Ender's-Game like speech from some officials standing about saying: "This was all a simulation, we tricked you." And you character goes like: "ah, now I understand the frequent blackouts and the odd inconsistencies in the world!" ;)
I don't believe in immutable facts in our real world, and certainly won't do so in what we agree on is a makebelieve world filled with internal inconsistencies. Yesterday Jamyl was dead, today she is the Empress, tomorrow she might be clone-jacked. The opinion expressed in PF articles that Jamyl never died is just as much an opinion as a PF article talking about crew. Believe them at your own risk!
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That's the thing though, isn't it? The chronicles say things, and yet, the things that are observable ingame do not match up.
More ingame content and evidence for things would be \o/
Even just a little note on the ship "attributes" info, forexample:
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=12003
there's an attribute, that (afaik) does nothing ingame, called "MaxPassengers", which is 580 for the Zealot, though the Omen has 800 and Navy Omen 880.
Having that visible ingame, might help? (though some might need clearing up first)
whole lot of things like that. Some named lasers go by the name of "Afocal Maser", but a Maser is quite a different thing to a laser.
What is observable ingame, is a subset of the information that is published. This is the problem, isn't it?
Ships supposedly require crew, fuels, maintenance, various supplies.
None of this is observable ingame. :|
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Well, it's the limits of the medium, really. Ships are supposed to be made of metal or some alloy, but if you zoom in far enough, you see the pixels.
It's an issue of resolution. Not just literal resolution - as in ship textures - but how much detail CCP has been able to build in and make work with game mechanics.
Crew, supplies, food, etc are things they haven't managed to put in yet, just like you can't zoom in and in on your ship and see more detail and you can't (yet) leave the pod, IG.
My feeling is, though, that that doesn't mean that in the game world your character can't leave the pod, walk through corridors in your ship you can't see IG, go to some stationside quarters that overlook the hangar that also aren't IG, etc...
Crew pay - or seeing crew at all - falls into the same category as being able to look closely enough at the hull of my Thant to see the texture created by the armor repair channels, least that's how I look at it.
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I think one of the reasons a lot of peoples' characters harp on the "all those innocent people!" bit is that some folks like to play the good guy. If you're trying to be the good guy, disregard for human life probably doesn't mesh well with that. It doesn't look/sound very heroic. Of course, there are exceptions. She may post here herself, but I'll use my corpmate Zuzanna Alondra as an example; she's having fun with Du'uma Fiisi's whole bad guy evil terrorist thing, but her character ICly clings to good guy ideals even as time and the series of cruel and inexcusable acts she participates in as a director of the corporation grows longer and slowly erodes her morality. Of course, Havohej encourages her and it's pretty fun OOC to watch her character struggle to find rationalizations so that she can swallow what the corp does herself. Outwardly, she appears to be clinging to a 'human' mentality, but it's not actually the player trying to play a 'human' combat-focused capsuleer.
Here's the clearest hint of that change. The following is two statements she's made in RP over time that pointed out the change:
Before: "My mother says I'm dead and I'm just some twisted copy. Why can't she understand that I'm still me?"
Now: "My mom's right - her sweet little 'anna's dead. The Zuzanna she knew would never hurt a fly and I'm not her." and, "The Intaki are a very peaceful people... I must get it from my dad's side of the family." (Little known fact - Zu by blood is only "half" intaki)
I enjoy the twisted game of role playing someone that thinks they are a good guy for a good reason and is really the bad guy. No matter how just you think your cause is - how far people are willing to go is fascinating. After all - Hitler really thought he was doing a good thing for the Germans - he likely really truly believed he was a good guy and didn't understand why all these folks thought he was wrong.
Maybe I should have Zu do the next IGS post - that would be fun. Thanks for the chance at a shameless plug Hav - though if you still have the link - I think the link to Aria's old IGS posts would be a useful reference for this thread. My copy of the link was on the laptop that died... *sad face*
Zu also used to keep count of how many people she had lost on her ships - not just the number of ships. I'm debating how much longer she's going to do that.
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That's a bit daft in some ways, but hey, my alt charges me isk to carry stuff for me in her hauler...
My alt tells Zu to fuck off, closes coms and then broods until Havo tells her to be nice or she decides to do it before Hav has to talk to her.
But this thread has seemed to mildly drift toward discussion of crew - interestingly enough my sig is made from one of the "blueprints" CCP released. While it doesn't show in the image clipped as it is, it showed as a ship that doesn't need crew.
To each their own on the crew issue - but I personally have had it be a *major* factor for what ships Zu will fly when. (Ignoring the fact that I OOCly just like the raw speed of frigates *giggles*) The most common ship you will find on my killmails are Incursus because Zu won't risk crew unless she's in a fleet she trusts.
But the crew isn't the only factor in how humane or not we should "be". I choose the start normal and slowly "warp" over time approach on Zu. I made that choice awhile back ago after reading the same post Havo did of Aria's - as it gave me an easy way to make sure Zu never leaves Du'uma. But more then once I have chit chatted on vent with Havo going, "How the hell are you going to talk Zu into this one - I don't want her to quit the corp...?"
Another interesting idea I've adopted personally that I don't know if others have - is the mindset in and out of the pod. Zu's pretty "gentle" out of the pod or a non-combat ship. But I've had this image that when your character plugs into the ship - the ship becomes their body and they are literally fit to kill. When you reach for your "hands" and find turrets and look at "others" - it's your prey and your pack to me. I see it almost as if we hit a "predatory" mindset. Havo's actually used this against Zu before by asking her questions while she's in combat to get her ok with doing certain things and Seriphym's been bit by it by trying to have a very emotional heart to heart with her while she was in her domonix killing dozens of battleships.
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Zu also used to keep count of how many people she had lost on her ships - not just the number of ships. I'm debating how much longer she's going to do that.
We need to lose you some Myrmidons.
But this thread has seemed to mildly drift toward discussion of crew - interestingly enough my sig is made from one of the "blueprints" CCP released. While it doesn't show in the image clipped as it is, it showed as a ship that doesn't need crew.
You know, come to think of it, ARE Those blueprint things official? I mean, did CCP make them? I've found quite a few of them here and there and I think I've got most, if not all, that were produced (they keep disappearing from places I've found them linked, so I started saving 'em every time I found one), but I've never seen them posted/linked to by a CCP employee. Are they player-made?
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They are CCP made. There was a site re-design way back when, and that's when the came down from the official site.
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Worth posting then! (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=314.0)
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I enjoy the twisted game of role playing someone that thinks they are a good guy for a good reason and is really the bad guy. No matter how just you think your cause is - how far people are willing to go is fascinating. After all - Hitler really thought he was doing a good thing for the Germans - he likely really truly believed he was a good guy and didn't understand why all these folks thought he was wrong.
This is something I try to keep in mind every time I'm writing: Nobody, no matter how horrible their actions are, ever believes themself to be evil. The coldest, cruellest, most heartless bastard in the world has intentions and motivations which are, at least in his or her mind, for the better.
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I find it very strange that people are still arguing over the existance of crew when it has been repeatedly stated that they exist. That said when did you last see an Interbus ship apart from the mission objective in Worlds Collide? The cluster's biggest stealth fleet as one of my corpies puts it.
It would also have to be said that another one of my corpies is a big fan of the Ian Banks Culture books, so tends to play with the idea that his ships are full AI's (as opposed the limited systems that most of us are supposed to be using) that are quite capable of maintaining themselves. On occasion this has been represented as the ship itself cutting into IC conversations. In one instance threatening to "shit out your pod and go home on my own." This has also led to some interesting exchanges with characters who seem to think that AI research and development is illegal. So all good grist for the RP mill.
As for capsuleers being social outcasts or physical weaklings. If that's the way you want to play then fine. However I suspect capsuleers are like any other group of people, and that sort of thing will vary.
As far as I am concerned all my larger ships are crewed, and the character spend some of the time when I am not in game doing some of the associated management of them. The cost of employing them could easily be considered as what your insurance premium actually represents. Why doesn't the game go into detail about this? Well it's called spreadsheets online already. That would be giving the critics even more ammo. It is, in the end, a spaceship game. It is not supposed to be a human management simulator.
The popular image of capsuleers is, to my thinking, the NPC's trying to make sense of the conduct of the majority of players who don't care to factor them into their actions. Like that Severance pilot who was trying to persuade U'K that there where no slaves in CVA run Providence, and that pilots don't care about such things anyway. Which, of course, lends credence to the idea that you are roleplaying even if you don't think you are. It's just you are roleplaying an sociopath.
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Of course, it's also open to us to decide how our characters react to other character's claims. I know several players whose characters treat other capsuleers who claim to have uncrewed ships with gentle pity, as pilots who have clearly gone insane under the pressure of losing crew, and retreated to a fantasy world where ship losses have no human consequences.
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As for capsuleers being [...] physical weaklings. If that's the way you want to play then fine. However I suspect capsuleers are like any other group of people, and that sort of thing will vary.
Exactly. While I steer away from the commando-turned-capsuleer trope myself, the idea that muscle atrophy is a problem at all for capsuleers strikes me as poorly thought-out, whether it's PF or not. It is a real issue for astronauts in our own day and age, granted (especially if they were to lead inactive "lifestyles" in space). However, in a society where one is able to significantly and accurately re-wire the neural network of a human brain with cybernetics, build new bodies of people and copy/pasting their minds from one body to the next, inserting simple synthetic muscle grafts which don't deteriorate with lack of use into people would be child's play. I can't think of any plausible explanation why it wouldn't be. Opting not to have this kind of biomod carried out would still be a valid choice, of course, but it would be a choice.
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Maybe it's just that a lot of players RP their characters as being pilots who think they're doing a good job of holding on to their humanity.
I know that's how I think about it. The reality is that Verin's as far gone as the rest, he's just in denial about it.
While I steer away from the commando-turned-capsuleer trope myself...
the funny thing is that I think that trope's entirely appropriate. Becoming a special forces troppers requires a soldier to pass a training regime that selects for an enormous degree of willpower and personal discipline, which are among the qualities required for a pod pilot.
This in turn probably means that a lot of pilots, provided they remain concerned about their "meat" bodies are almost certainly disciplined enough to eat healthily and exercise regularly. We're talking a very driven, very focused group of people here, who have a tendency to become obsessive. if they stay obsessive on keeping their bodies in good shape, then there's every reason to assume that capsuleers are generally quite fit and healthy. Especially given the kind of super-advanced medical technology they have access to.
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Maybe it's just that a lot of players RP their characters as being pilots who think they're doing a good job of holding on to their humanity.
I know that's how I think about it. The reality is that Verin's as far gone as the rest, he's just in denial about it.
While I steer away from the commando-turned-capsuleer trope myself...
the funny thing is that I think that trope's entirely appropriate. Becoming a special forces troppers requires a soldier to pass a training regime that selects for an enormous degree of willpower and personal discipline, which are among the qualities required for a pod pilot.
This in turn probably means that a lot of pilots, provided they remain concerned about their "meat" bodies are almost certainly disciplined enough to eat healthily and exercise regularly. We're talking a very driven, very focused group of people here, who have a tendency to become obsessive. if they stay obsessive on keeping their bodies in good shape, then there's every reason to assume that capsuleers are generally quite fit and healthy. Especially given the kind of super-advanced medical technology they have access to.
I think that is one reasonable position. We know so little about how capsuleers are actually selected that it leaves the door open for any number of interpretations. Not to mention, with it being a big cluster, any number might be right.
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I always assumed that the trait to avoid Mind Lock was very rare, and as such the Powers That Be would be somewhat more tolerant of pilot's foibles and shady past, basically because theyre too rare and valuable to not utilize.
I kinda needed this justification to make sense of many characters actually becoming pilots (including my own). Im not sure many of them would pass a basic background screening process otherwise.
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I always assumed that the trait to avoid Mind Lock was very rare, and as such the Powers That Be would be somewhat more tolerant of pilot's foibles and shady past, basically because theyre too rare and valuable to not utilize.
I kinda needed this justification to make sense of many characters actually becoming pilots (including my own). Im not sure many of them would pass a basic background screening process otherwise.
Yes, I always assumed that almost anyone possessing the right genetic traits would get anointed and elevated to capsuleer status. I recall reading that the rationale for the core empires had to do with prestige for nations with more pilots, but that seemed flimsy at best.
I should think more about this.
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I always assumed that the trait to avoid Mind Lock was very rare, and as such the Powers That Be would be somewhat more tolerant of pilot's foibles and shady past, basically because theyre too rare and valuable to not utilize.
I kinda needed this justification to make sense of many characters actually becoming pilots (including my own). Im not sure many of them would pass a basic background screening process otherwise.
This was my impression, too.
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That would almost certainly be the only real criterion for getting in on the training in the first place, but I strongly doubt they'd pass on principle. There'd be training, and training means dropouts.
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Maybe the dropouts are the ones picked up by the "pirate" factions. In one of the tutorial missions for Minmatar, an Angel Cartel boss refers to pilots from the Republic as much better-trained than what they get 'out there'. (I presume analogues exist for the other primary empires.)
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I think we just figured out where Zor and Kruul came from :)
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I got the impression from the The Jovian Wetgrave short story that Mind Lock was prevented by better training. Quoted from the last page:
"This mind-lock as you call it, is it permanent?" captain Ouriye asked.
"I'm afraid so. We have studied it thoroughly and found no cure. It's a shame, if I may say so."
"But how do you prevent it in the first place? I mean, was this bound to happen?" the captain enquired.
"Under the circumstances, yes. The only way to prevent this is with intense training for many years. That timeframe was unacceptable to your superiors. Besides, you knew what was going to happen all along. You have no grounds for complaints now."
There may be a genetic aspect to the selection process, but from what I gather it's mostly training that prevents this. I suspect that this mind lock has something to do with the way ones mind interfaces with the ship, and without enough training they could accidentally sever the neural connection to their bodies.
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Kaleigh, you do understand that you insinuate that the pod pilots are not unique snowflakes but something that has been churned out of a system that clips the wings of any degree of individuality so that they can create a mindset that can withstand the overstimuli of the pod interface.
If its not a genetic thing, then the capsuleers are not special.
That is just wrong.
:D
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I always assumed that the trait to avoid Mind Lock was very rare, and as such the Powers That Be would be somewhat more tolerant of pilot's foibles and shady past, basically because theyre too rare and valuable to not utilize.
I kinda needed this justification to make sense of many characters actually becoming pilots (including my own). Im not sure many of them would pass a basic background screening process otherwise.
I had felt the same way, and that would also explain the incredibly disproportion of Caldari pilots to everyone else, since they tend towards Tube Children, so they could isolate the gene and grow greater populations that would not be susceptible (or be less susceptible) to mind lock.
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Kaleigh, you do understand that you insinuate that the pod pilots are not unique snowflakes but something that has been churned out of a system that clips the wings of any degree of individuality so that they can create a mindset that can withstand the overstimuli of the pod interface.
If its not a genetic thing, then the capsuleers are not special.
That is just wrong.
:D
What can I say? I'm the yellow snowflake that landed in your cheerios. :lol:
Like I said, I have no idea if there's anything MORE to it. I haven't read anything that implied that there was, but as Lillith suggested, they could just modify the genetic code and create a society of people capable of flying pods if that's all there was to it. I like to think what makes us unique snowflakes is our ability to endure the training, as I'm guessing that's were a vast majority of people actually get weeded out.
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I like to think what makes us unique snowflakes is our ability to endure the training, as I'm guessing that's were a vast majority of people actually get weeded out.
I like to think that what makes Capsuleers unique snowflakes is what makes the average Joe irl a unique snowflake. They simply believe they are unique snowflakes amidst a sea of unique snowflakes that all fall into the same patterns.
It's like the "Gothie" creed "Let's all go be non-conformist together". . .
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Maybe those are the folks who never get out of the trial in EVE...
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I'm of the opinion that anyone can be trained to avoid wet-graving, in theory but there is also a genetic trait, which can be tested for, that means you would much more likely to survive the training.
so even if you posses the rare trait, you'll still have to go through years of training before you are ready and even then could still mind lock. Further, I suspect that only a tiny minority of the people who attempt to become capsuleers posses the the trait yet they make up a majority of the people who make it past the mind-lock or don't stage.
I like this idea because it opens up a lot of character back ground material.
Imagine this: Some street kid gets into a gang fight and gets arrested. At the police station they take his mug shot, finger prints, and a few skin cells in order to start his rap sheet. Within an hour he's sitting across from a smiling suit who promises to make all his problems go away if he signs on the dotted line. Seven years later he's FCing his first hundred man cap fleet.
I don't really have any PF to back this up though.
Concerning fragility outside of the pod; are we sure he meant he felt weak from muscle atrophy or was it because he could be perma killed by a mere human with a shank were as commanding starship he could shrug off multiple nuclear detonations?
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Concerning fragility outside of the pod; are we sure he meant he felt weak from muscle atrophy or was it because he could be perma killed by a mere human with a shank were as commanding starship he could shrug off multiple nuclear detonations?
well I don't talk about this much ICly, but Verin is super-paranoid about that. to the extent that the commlink sleeve he wears all the time contains a built in recorder good for a week of continuous 360 degree footage and sound, and a fluid router attached to a biomonitor. If his vitals flat-line, then a "cold" backup clone somewhere in the cluster - and he has a lot of them, of varying degrees of legitimacy and secrecy, up to and including a few even he doesn't know the location of - gets woken up and gets to watch a movie of his previous self's last few days and hours.
There's a grace period, of course. He doesn't want a clone waking up and then having to be given the awkward news that "no, I'm not dead, my arm was just cut off. Guess you'd better get back in the box."
The point being that if somebody does kill Verin in the meat, it just pisses him off and the worst he has to show for it is somewhere between a day or so and about thirty months of amnesia.
I consider these to be rather excessive but still sensible precautions for somebody who can otherwise expect to be indefinitely serially mortal. We know that "cold" backup clones are a standing part of the PF, I see no good reason at all why a careful capsuleer wouldn't make extensive use of them.
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I always assumed that the trait to avoid Mind Lock was very rare, and as such the Powers That Be would be somewhat more tolerant of pilot's foibles and shady past, basically because theyre too rare and valuable to not utilize.
I kinda needed this justification to make sense of many characters actually becoming pilots (including my own). Im not sure many of them would pass a basic background screening process otherwise.
I had felt the same way, and that would also explain the incredibly disproportion of Caldari pilots to everyone else, since they tend towards Tube Children, so they could isolate the gene and grow greater populations that would not be susceptible (or be less susceptible) to mind lock.
Yeah, I thought that not so much because of the "unique-godgivenspecialness" of each pilot...but basically why capsuleers are so incredibly rare, at least given the massive population the cluster would have.
I figured if it was due to training, there would be a lot more of them.
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If the ability to fly a pod where entirely down to training I suspect the core nations would take more care to weed out the flakes and psycho/sociopaths from their training programs.
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If the ability to fly a pod where entirely down to training I suspect the core nations would take more care to weed out the flakes and psycho/sociopaths from their training programs.
Perhaps the entire plan is to this way get rid of all the flaakes and psycho/sociopaths.....
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Another reason I always assumed it was genetic is...well...the average pod pilot in Eve is kinda a clod. Its hard to hear "i totally pwned his @ss" and think "this....this man completed the toughest, most exclusive training in all of New Eden".
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Another reason I always assumed it was genetic is...well...the average pod pilot in Eve is kinda a clod. Its hard to hear "i totally pwned his @ss" and think "this....this man completed the toughest, most exclusive training in all of New Eden".
Of course I really need much pointier ears to say this with conviction but...
I believe that is what I just said Captain.
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Another reason I always assumed it was genetic is...well...the average pod pilot in Eve is kinda a clod. Its hard to hear "i totally pwned his @ss" and think "this....this man completed the toughest, most exclusive training in all of New Eden".
Of course I really need much pointier ears to say this with conviction but...
I believe that is what I just said Captain.
Yes, but while your statement was made with logic and cold vulcan dispassion, mine was far more human and intuitive, and no doubt made green-skin dancing girls everywhere swoon :D
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Jibing in randomly, I am always amused how characters get offended by Seriphyn's egomania.
He's a capsuleer! Ego is our middle name! Hehe
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Ego is our middle name!
(http://www.sparkcaster.com/demotivational/thumbnails/saving your own ass first.jpg) (http://www.sparkcaster.com/demotivational/image.php?imageid=685)
"Average" capsuleer mentality, c/c?
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Jibing in randomly, I am always amused how characters get offended by Seriphyn's egomania.
He's a capsuleer! Ego is our middle name! Hehe
Thing is you have to be careful how far you take it or nobody will talk to you IC because IC you are a boring person to talk to. Much the same as playing a crazy person.
IC I don't talk to Revan because I don't think she has a properly functioning personality, and I'd much rather be blowing her up.
Now Laerise I would cheerfully exchange insults with as well as blowing up. IC I think she's a pompous cretin, however good she may be as a pilot. But I don't think she's stupid and I do thing she's sane (for a certain value of sane anyway).
Rocius (from Gradient) is fun to talk to because he is played as so stiff-necked and genrally anal. I find winding him up hugely relaxing.
Arkady Sadik (also Gradient) is fun because he is so opinionated and isn't afraid to defend is opinions with a reasoned debate.
However Arnulf tends to steer clear of talking to people like Cyshade and the bit's of U'K that think the Blooders are fine allies ('cos they are anti Empire) because he is well aware that he is completely non rational when it comes to Blood Raiders. He'd blow up their habitats cheerfully and not for the loot, but because he feels they are a worse stain on creation than the empire. Ditto the EoM.