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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => Player Driven Content => Topic started by: NISYN Aelisha on 31 May 2012, 16:30
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Hello,
I have been considering writing a series of journals from the point of view of an astronomer and aspiring writer in the latter years of the Caldari industrial age, during the first intermittent radio contact between the Gallente and Caldari, leading up to the first contact over a slow, periodic progression through updates.
In the present RP of EVE, these will be presented as the personal journals of said individual, thus open to refutation, narrative bias etc so this doesn't turn into godmodding nonsense. In fact the theme of these journals should be very different to the current state of affairs, with a combination of HG Wells and Arthur C Clarke style introspection and analysis taking the fore above racial prejudice (as there is little basis for it at this point in history).
However, though I am crafting a good mental picture of the state of Caldari Prime, the wiki providing a few key pointers on which megas have origins in this period of time, I am shaky on what technological state the Gallente were in. From what little I have found, they were certainly more advanced, and first contact in the physical sense would most definitely have been a long haul Gallente mission (imagine the kind of effort we would be spurred to if we had contact with other sapient life, indeed human, in our own solar system - that mars mission would be on the cards fast).
So, looking for some community inspiration here:
1. How far in advance of the [IRL] modern era were the Gallente in this period?
2. Prevailing political sentiment towards first contact [both sides] (left/right, hopeful/fearful/exploitative)?
3. In there a World Order [both nations] or are the two worlds still divided into states and nations?
This is the start, no doubt there will be more questions. In the meantime, i am going to try some taster sessions writing in an appropriate style.
Ty in advance for any help.
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caille (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caille)
"Caille is the capital of the Kingdom of Central Garoun, a legacy nation and sub-planetary member of the Gallente Federation."
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hueromont (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hueromont)
"By popular vote, Hueromont applied to be registered as a megalopolis not long after the founding of the Gallente Federation. [...] Today, the city is fully autonomous (as per its megalopolis status) so long as it complies with planetary, district and Federal law."
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Right ty, that will be a good start. Now I just need to figure out the state of affairs leading to first radio contact. I imagine that the Gallente would have developed the requisite optical technology to notice urbanisation and the start of industry on Caldari Prime before the Caldari did, and so may have been blasting radio messages at the planet for quite some time. This would result in the first truly receptive radio technologies on Caldari prime picking up said transmissions, but with little to no reference between the two languages to start with. The issue of mass hysteria and the likes on the part of both societies would likely be curbed by the fact that each civilization would have had decades if not centuries to come to terms with the possibility of 'alien life' as they would have had a lengthy period of silent observation via primitive astronomy optics prior to any radio contact.
Any feed back or criticisms of this line of thought would be appreciated.
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There may not have been first radio contact. The prevailing notion is that the Caldari were surprised when the Gallente landed.
1. How far in advance of the [IRL] modern era were the Gallente in this period?
2. Prevailing political sentiment towards first contact [both sides] (left/right, hopeful/fearful/exploitative)?
3. In there a World Order [both nations] or are the two worlds still divided into states and nations?
1. I would not put the Gallente to far ahead of early 21st Century Earth. They clearly had interplanetary capable manned spacecraft, but we are not far from that. The Caldari are another matter entirely, likely comparable to early 19th Century Earth. They may have had preventative telescopes, but they did not know that the Gallente even existed.
2. The Caldari did not know the Gallente were there. I suspect the majority of Gallente were "generally" suppportive of making contact with their neighbors and generally hopeful. I suspect there were those looking towards exploitation and some who feared what they might do to a culture without various technologies.
3. I think the Gallente were at least under a powerful hegemony possibly on the way to a "one world" order. I suspect the Caldari were more or less divided, possibly with a few clear major powers. First contact rapidly changes this for both cultures.
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Neat idea. :) I portrayed this time period (addressing some of these questions directly) in the Hitchhiker's Guide. Just reposted the Gal/Cal chapter over on the WHG site. Might help with your creative process on this project: http://whgeve.shivtr.com/journals/10103
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Excellent! Thanks for bringing this to my attention I have bookmarked it and will read it tomorrow, it is getting a bit late here atm. i hope to put up some cursory flavour text so people can yell at me for ruining eve/being a tonyg alt as they wish - It is all about getting the feel right in said flavour text then going into the actual writing. That way I give no spoilers, but people can tell me if it comes across as 'Steamdari-Punk' which is certainly not what I want to do.
TY again for that source - No doubt it will provide good insights into the time period.
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kaalakiota_Peaks
"In the post-Raata and contemporary eras, the Kaalakiota Peaks overlap the borders of many nation-states on Caldari Prime"
IMO, all preceding references of "Gallente" and "Caldari" in fiction, especially pre-first war fiction, are referring to them as far as their dominant political forces go. I really don't think when it says "the Gallente were oppressing the Caldari" means every single ethnic Gallente was oppressing every single ethnic Caldari. It sounds like, according to the latest fiction, that any mention of "Gallente" refers to their most dominant powers. Maybe there were lesser powers that were sympathetic to the Caldari (and vice-versa); because they had little-to-no-effect on the course of history, they are not accounted for under "Gallente" (and vice-versa).
I'm also beginning to see the Federation as a sort of United Nations Space Command, Systems Alliance, Terran Federation sort of entity, rather than a homogeneous nation. Like how the Amarr Empire is made up of feudal domains under Holders, the Fed is made up of nations. BUT this is my biased interpretation and I might be horribly wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kaalakiota_Peaks
"In the post-Raata and contemporary eras, the Kaalakiota Peaks overlap the borders of many nation-states on Caldari Prime"
IMO, all preceding references of "Gallente" and "Caldari" in fiction, especially pre-first war fiction, are referring to them as far as their dominant political forces go. I really don't think when it says "the Gallente were oppressing the Caldari" means every single ethnic Gallente was oppressing every single ethnic Caldari. It sounds like, according to the latest fiction, that any mention of "Gallente" refers to their most dominant powers. Maybe there were lesser powers that were sympathetic to the Caldari (and vice-versa); because they had little-to-no-effect on the course of history, they are not accounted for under "Gallente" (and vice-versa).
I'm also beginning to see the Federation as a sort of United Nations Space Command, Systems Alliance, Terran Federation sort of entity, rather than a homogeneous nation. Like how the Amarr Empire is made up of feudal domains under Holders, the Fed is made up of nations. BUT this is my biased interpretation and I might be horribly wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
I had actually the same feeling about the Federation, that it has a central body... but under it, also local goverment/administration which can govern their relativ district (by the way I dont know if district is the right term; I have just started the get my toes in Gallente PF). But as topic, I really love the early stuff.... because it said often more in a shorter version, than wall of text can does (If that makes any sense?).
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There may not have been first radio contact. The prevailing notion is that the Caldari were surprised when the Gallente landed.
1. How far in advance of the [IRL] modern era were the Gallente in this period?
2. Prevailing political sentiment towards first contact [both sides] (left/right, hopeful/fearful/exploitative)?
3. In there a World Order [both nations] or are the two worlds still divided into states and nations?
1. I would not put the Gallente to far ahead of early 21st Century Earth. They clearly had interplanetary capable manned spacecraft, but we are not far from that. The Caldari are another matter entirely, likely comparable to early 19th Century Earth. They may have had preventative telescopes, but they did not know that the Gallente even existed.
2. The Caldari did not know the Gallente were there. I suspect the majority of Gallente were "generally" suppportive of making contact with their neighbors and generally hopeful. I suspect there were those looking towards exploitation and some who feared what they might do to a culture without various technologies.
3. I think the Gallente were at least under a powerful hegemony possibly on the way to a "one world" order. I suspect the Caldari were more or less divided, possibly with a few clear major powers. First contact rapidly changes this for both cultures.
This is curious. So either Caldari had some other technology for long distance communications (falcons?) or that radio transmissions were common but people did not believe in life on other planets and the Gallente signals were dismissed as noise, pranks, information warfare by other Caldari nations etc.
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some other technology for long distance communications (falcons?) or that radio transmissions were common but people did not believe in life on other planets and the Gallente signals were dismissed as noise, pranks, information warfare by other Caldari nations etc.
Telegraph? Also possible that the Gallente had advanced radio tech to the point where a very primitive receiver would be useless for listening in. Compare a basic analog HF signal to a modern packet transmission in UHF.
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Telegraph? Also possible that the Gallente had advanced radio tech to the point where a very primitive receiver would be useless for listening in. Compare a basic analog HF signal to a modern packet transmission in UHF.
Sure. So was it just a coincidence that the technology hadn't advanced further, or could it be that these primitive communication tools were too ingrained to the culture, always taken for granted and generally seen as the best one can achieve? Or maybe the service providers of that time had achieved a monopoly status and there hadn't been any pressure to develop alternative technologies? Gunpowder of the ancient China and columns of the ancient Greece indicate that this might be entirely possible.
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I like those ideas. Another possible cultural answer could be that remote communication was seen as disrespectful to the recipient or dishonorable to the sender. Maybe the pre-contact Caldari valued the human touch and simpler ideals of community than they do now. A technical answer, other than a simple disparity in telecom technology due to a Gallente "headstart", could be a serious shortfall in materials needed to produce very precise and high bandwidth radios and more sensitive electronics on Caldari Prime.
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This is curious. So either Caldari had some other technology for long distance communications (falcons?) or that radio transmissions were common but people did not believe in life on other planets and the Gallente signals were dismissed as noise, pranks, information warfare by other Caldari nations etc.
:?:
For most of modern human history long distance communications has been handled via messengers of some kind. Occasionally, depending on local conditions signaling mechanisms could be used. In other words, a trusted person (or animal) carried the message over long distances.
Different peoples and cultures develop technologies at different rates and may even encounter a scientific phenomena or principle, but not recognize its practical application/lack the technology to use the practical application. An example of this was the principles behind a steam engine during the Greek Classical era.
My understanding is the Caldari, for whatever reason, were technologically behind the Gallente at first contact.
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For me the problem is the timeframe.
The Amarr Empire has been in space for two millenia, it enslaved the Minmatar before the first contact between the Gallente and the Caldari. At the moment the Empire is less technologically advanced than it used to be (Takmahl had tech that is being datamined for tech 2, who left the Empire way back when.)
To have the nations that make up the Federation be complete upstarts when it comes to technology seems a bit far fetched...
I think its all a bit :psyccp:
I applaud the initiative.
The problem is the lack of information from CCPs part about the actual cultures that are part of this experiment and extrapolating any kind of information is pretty much just wasted talent.
Because CCP just does not give a fuck.
The most awesome stuff about the Caldari are player made, so... :cowbell:
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Glad to seem ore people posting. I have been at work the last few days, but have some sample entries on the way now - final edit will be coming through by Sunday/Monday. I am loving the discussion about Caldair long distance comms, I am assuming telegraph for them ost part, but the alternatives are interesting - possibly way more used in the harsher areas of Caldari Prime.
Keep it going, sorry this message is short but I have to get back to work. TTYL!
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For most of modern human history long distance communications has been handled via messengers of some kind. Occasionally, depending on local conditions signaling mechanisms could be used. In other words, a trusted person (or animal) carried the message over long distances.
Different peoples and cultures develop technologies at different rates and may even encounter a scientific phenomena or principle, but not recognize its practical application/lack the technology to use the practical application. An example of this was the principles behind a steam engine during the Greek Classical era.
My understanding is the Caldari, for whatever reason, were technologically behind the Gallente at first contact.
Sure. In some fan fiction pieces the technological difference has been portrayed to be smaller. I guess it's more likely to have been a steam punk vs cyber punk style encounter then.
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Sure. In some fan fiction pieces the technological difference has been portrayed to be smaller. I guess it's more likely to have been a steam punk vs cyber punk style encounter then.
Exactly the aesthetic I think of.
Re: Amarrian vs Luminarian Advancement
I think part of the reason for the Caldari & Gallente being relative upstarts (and in some veins surpassing the Amarr) is the amount of internal division they both faced (and continue to face). I do not picture any particular Caldari or Gallente pre-space empire establishing a successful world spanning imperium.
I would go far as to argue that the first Gallente to make contact with the Caldari did not represent a completely unified Gallente populous.
The Amarr conquered their world and then continued to press outwards must have been driven by scripture/religious fervor. Perhaps radio signals from nearby people spurred their advancement into the stars to reclaim all!
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An equivalent to Galileo’s telescope, invented in 1610, should have been enough to discover a civilization capable of space flight within the same solar system. PF does say that the Caldari were entering the industrial era (mid 1700’s), but because of the lack of a Galileo like telescope it’s my personal opinion that the Caldari had not advanced their understanding of mathematics or physics past the early 1600s.
I suppose that could mean that some of the technologies of the industrial era had been invented but had not yet become widely used.
According to Wikipedia certain discoveries in coal and steel lead the way to the industrial era, and I believe it was Herko who suggested that the reason the Caldari lagged behind was because Caldari Prime was terraformed into a habitable planet and therefore didn’t have a lot of fossil fuels to begin with. This may tie into the significance steel has in the Caldari culture. It may represent strength, power and technological advancement.
It’s also my personal opinion that the original authors of Caldari PF pulled heavily from the events that lead to Japan’s industrial revolution; the Meiji Restoration and Satsuma Rebellion for inspiration of the time period between first contact up to the start of the Caldari-Gallente war.
When the Satsuma-Chōshū Alliance overthrew the Tokugawa Shogunate they used the slogan sonnō jōi or “restore the Emperor, expel the barbarian.“
Japanese knew that they were behind the rest of the world when American Commodore Matthew C. Perry came to Japan to try to issue a treaty that would open up Japanese ports to trade. Perry came to Japan in large warships with armament and technology that far outclassed those of Japan at the time. The leaders of the Meiji Restoration, as this revolution came to be known, acted in the name of restoring imperial rule in order to strengthen Japan against the threat represented by the colonial powers of the day.
Although the Satsuma Domain had been one of the key players in the Meiji Restoration and the Boshin War, and although many men from Satsuma had risen to influential positions in the new Meiji government, there was growing dissatisfaction with the direction the country was taking. The very rapid and massive changes to Japanese culture, language, dress and society appeared to many samurai to be a betrayal of the jōi ("expel the barbarian") portion of the sonnō jōi justification used to overthrow the former Tokugawa shogunate.
Two conflicting goals here; the need to learn from the technologically advanced society inorder to survive and the need to isolate themselves from the that society inorder to survive as a culture.
Despite still being very xenophobic, the Japanese of this era still sent thousands of students abroad and hired westerners to help modernize their technology.
Similarly, I believe during the Caldari’s time as part of the Federation they would have distrustful of the Gallente and resentful of the influence their culture had on Caldari society but keenly aware of how outclassed they were in terms of technology. Because they were so much stronger, they realized they had no choice but to learn their secrets even if it meant playing ball for the time being.
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An equivalent to Galileo’s telescope, invented in 1610, should have been enough to discover a civilization capable of space flight within the same solar system. PF does say that the Caldari were entering the industrial era (mid 1700’s), but because of the lack of a Galileo like telescope it’s my personal opinion that the Caldari had not advanced their understanding of mathematics or physics past the early 1600s.
I disagree that a Renaissance-era telescope would be sufficient to identify a civilization capable of spaceflight within the same solar system. As an example, the first maps of Mars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Mars) in 1877 had features that were optical illusions, but (along with poor translation) led other scientist to speculate about the existence of intelligent life on Mars.
Recently, MRO took a photo of Earth & Moon (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/mro20080303earth.html) from Mars orbit using HiRISE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiRISE). You can't really tell if Earth has a civilization or not from the image.
Mars is ~20x as close to Earth as Caldari Prime (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Luminaire/VII) is to Gallente Prime (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Luminaire/VI). (CCP really needs to hire someone to clean up some of their solar system & planet data.)
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They did... I hope they didn't spend much money on him because I think they'd have done a better job with a physics undergrand from any decent university.
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Recently, MRO took a photo of Earth & Moon (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/mro20080303earth.html) from Mars orbit using HiRISE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiRISE). You can't really tell if Earth has a civilization or not from the image.
Had not seen this. It is awesome.
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An equivalent to Galileo’s telescope, invented in 1610, should have been enough to discover a civilization capable of space flight within the same solar system. PF does say that the Caldari were entering the industrial era (mid 1700’s), but because of the lack of a Galileo like telescope it’s my personal opinion that the Caldari had not advanced their understanding of mathematics or physics past the early 1600s.
I disagree that a Renaissance-era telescope would be sufficient to identify a civilization capable of spaceflight within the same solar system. As an example, the first maps of Mars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Mars) in 1877 had features that were optical illusions, but (along with poor translation) led other scientist to speculate about the existence of intelligent life on Mars.
Recently, MRO took a photo of Earth & Moon (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/mro20080303earth.html) from Mars orbit using HiRISE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HiRISE). You can't really tell if Earth has a civilization or not from the image.
Mars is ~20x as close to Earth as Caldari Prime (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Luminaire/VII) is to Gallente Prime (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/system/Luminaire/VI). (CCP really needs to hire someone to clean up some of their solar system & planet data.)
A thought: since the Gallente are allegedly pioneers in robotics and drone technology, the first visual evidence of the Caldari might have been transmitted back to Gallente Prime from a space survey craft (a la the Voyagers), rather than captured by a planet-based or near-orbit telescope.
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I could be wrong, but it seems to me an industrial society will likely be lighting up the night half of the planet in quite noticeable ways. Doubly so when someone aims a spectrograph at those funny points of light; so if it weren't for the (completely stupid) 10 AU minimum distance, late 1800s tech might be enough for proof positive of an alien civilization.
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/me wonders if a Gallente probe like our Mars rovers might not have found the Caldari
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I could be wrong, but it seems to me an industrial society will likely be lighting up the night half of the planet in quite noticeable ways. Doubly so when someone aims a spectrograph at those funny points of light; so if it weren't for the (completely stupid) 10 AU minimum distance, late 1800s tech might be enough for proof positive of an alien civilization.
Our society most certainly is lighting up a whole lot of our planet at night. However, at the picture taken from Mars orbit (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/mro20080303earth.html), looks pretty dark to me.
So, theory: It might be possible, but only if viewing the dark side only. (Because the illuminated side, at those distances, is so bright that artificial lights just vanish.)
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I expect that's more of a photography than an observation issue. The stars in between the earth and moon in that picture haven't 'vanished,' for example; you just can't photograph them at the same time as the bright sides of the planets without saturating the image. Same reason there's no stars showing on photographs taken on the Moon.
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/me wonders if a Gallente probe like our Mars rovers might not have found the Caldari
Welll, if I remember correctly, we did lose one or two on Mars before we got images back, spawning some comedy and speculation about their being destroyed by little green men.
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You do remember correctly, although fortunately we have enough going on there that the possibility of LGM is fairly well excluded. Arthur C. Clarke wrote some great short stories on the idea, though.
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I think it would be awesome if first contact for the Caldari came in the form of Gallente reality TV.
Would explain a lot of the hostility.
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I think it would be awesome if first contact for the Caldari came in the form of Gallente reality TV.
Would explain a lot of the hostility.
Hahahahahaha
I normally try to contribute something to a thread when I post but this was just funny and I had to comment on it.
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I think it would be awesome if first contact for the Caldari came in the form of Gallente reality TV.
Would explain a lot of the hostility.
I'm reminded of the Futurama episode with the cancelled lawyer TV series...
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I'm still getting familiar with the PF, but is there anything about the pre-industrial cultures (either Caldari or Gallente) realising that they weren't indigenous to their planets even before first observations of each other?
I'd personally be really interested in the cultural impact resulting from finding other humans out there. Reminds me of the Homeworld back-story.