Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Andreus Ixiris on 13 Aug 2010, 13:36
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CCP removed the section in the relevant chronicle (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=mar05) that stated that ORE left the Federation due to malfesence on the Federation's part. This is pretty conclusive evidence that they've retconned that plot point out of existence, especially taken into account with the following line they added in its place:
The empires monitor the goings-on in Miennue closely and all of them have made both overt and covert proposals to Outer Ring Excavations, offering security for a stake in the company.
They wouldn't take the effort of removing the original line if they didn't intend to remove the plot point it referred to. As for the databases, we all know CCP don't update those things more than twice every three years.
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So has ORE been absorbed by the Serpentis Corporation yet or something?
Why retcon that line out?
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Why retcon that line out?
That's entirely my point.
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When, precisely, do you think this retcon took place and what line do you think was removed?
You need to have a pre-retcon chron copy to make this point convincing.
I see no record of such a retcon on the EVE-Online EVE Fiction forum sticky and I have a copy of the chron pre-dating CCP's chronicle retcon exercise that has the very line you say was added to it.
You're asserting a line was removed but I can't see any evidence for that assertion.
You're asserting a line was added and I can't see any evidence for that assertion.
Provide the evidence and there's a debate. And even then, they've not altered the in-game material and they've repeated the material on moderated evelopedia pages. You can't extrapolate intent from an alleged absence when there is presence elsewhere.
Cosmo
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I can't very well give you an example of the pre-change chronicle because it no longer exists. I can only provide you with the very clear evidence that they have been changing the chronicles. Example: CONCORD (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=jul04), a chronicle from 2001 that was written before EVE's release clearly referencing Empyrean Day and the Elder War.
Every source I go to that stores chronicles externally to EVE's servers has the updated version of the CONCORD chronicle, and also therefore, the updated version of the ORE chronicle.
And I quite clearly can alledge based on the fact that both the in-game databases and the EVEolopedia are both woefully (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/President_%28NPC_corporation%29) out of date (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Senate_%28NPC_corporation%29).
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When, precisely, do you think this retcon took place and what line do you think was removed?
You need to have a pre-retcon chron copy to make this point convincing.
I see no record of such a retcon on the EVE-Online EVE Fiction forum sticky and I have a copy of the chron pre-dating CCP's chronicle retcon exercise that has the very line you say was added to it.
You're asserting a line was removed but I can't see any evidence for that assertion.
You're asserting a line was added and I can't see any evidence for that assertion.
Provide the evidence and there's a debate. And even then, they've not altered the in-game material and they've repeated the material on moderated evelopedia pages. You can't extrapolate intent from an alleged absence when there is presence elsewhere.
Cosmo
Fair enough points. But let's hear something even more convincing: An explanation as to why they would have done it if they didn't intend to remove the plot. If you can't come up with an explanation, then we're likely going to believe Andreus' point because it makes sense and no other explanation is apparent.
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I don't see the significance here. What far-reaching consequences does it have, whether CCP did it or not?
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Because it has been presented as evidence of the Federation's restrictive policies.
If the change never occurred, then the concept that the Federation (government) restricted the growth of ORE comes from the ORE organization descriptions and not the chronicle. If a retcon occurred, his argument is there is less ammo against that the Federation (government) is restrictive towards corporate activities.
Note to Moderators: this discussion could head south quickly as players begin to defend their chosen IC associations.
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The significance of the removal is clear - they wouldn't take the effort to remove it unless it indicated something about the sentences that were removed. What does it indicate in this case? Something about the Federation's relationship with ORE was removed.
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There still isn't any evidence presented that the chronicle has changed at all.
I find it a bit strange that I'm the one who has to explain why they would have done something for which there is no evidence. When there is evidence for the change, there's a debate about why it might have happened. Until there is any evidence, there is no debate. Just assertions that the change occured.
Andreus says a change to the CONCORD chron is evidence they have been changing chrons. Yes, certainly. But we knew that because there was an announced chron retcon exercise and all the changes were logged. So, for the CONCORD chron:
Rewrote Chronicle “CONCORD,” making numerous changes: made mention of last year’s Elder War events; added historical details on the brokering of the ceasefire agreement between the Caldari and the Gallente; several other small changes.
As I've already stated, no such change for the Outer Ring Excavations chron appears noted in the EVE Fiction forum section log of changes to chronicles. That is evidence there was no change in that exercise.
I have a pre-CCP chronicle retcon exercise copy of the chronicle at issue that has the line Andreus thinks was added in it already. That is evidence there was no such change in that exercise.
What I am doing is challenging the claim being made and, by the way, this has nothing to do with winning an IC argument. The IC points have been made and it's finished with.
This is an OOC discussion about the background of EVE and I make no apology for asking for clear evidence when someone claims a retcon has taken place.
Cosmo
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I remain absolutely certain there was a modification to the chronicle as I clearly remember that chronicle was the place I specifically learnt of the original nature of ORE's departure from the Federation. Either way, it seems rather remiss of CCP not to mention in a chronicle specifically regarding ORE that such an event took place.
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As to your certainty, if you're so certain, when did it change? Tell us that.
As to CCP not mentioning in the chronicle this detail: that is likely a consequence of it being a very old chronicle indeed. It dates from 2001. The in-game descriptions are later.
Contrary to the mythology, the founders of CCP did not have every bit of the storyline for ten years worked out in advance in 2000.
They developed it as they went along, just as they are doing now.
There is strong internal evidence that the chron has never been touched since. For instance: who is the founder of ORE? The chron says Yani Sar Arteu.
Three news pieces since consistently say otherwise:
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=429&tid=4
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=822&tid=7
http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=606&tid=4
I find it hard to believe they would retcon the chronicle while leaving this rather glaring contradiction entirely untouched.
Cosmo
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I have a copy of the chronicle, it was in a pdf collection downloaded 30 March 2008, 21:20:40
I do not see any difference in the ORE chronicle.
On another note, the founder of ORE, I'm don't think that it's meant to the man named in the chronicle. The chronicle doesn't name them as being the founder, it just seems to say that he worked for them.
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Here's the chronicle as it looked in 2001. (http://web.archive.org/web/20011016104927/http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/mar05.asp)
Here's the chronicle as it looked in 2002. (http://web.archive.org/web/20020602004941/http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/mar05.asp)
Here's the chronicle as it looked in 2003. (http://web.archive.org/web/20030418091404/http://eve-online.com/background/potw/mar05.asp)
Here's the chronicle as it looked in 2004. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040229223517/http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/mar05.asp)
Here's the chronicle as it looked in 2005. (http://web.archive.org/web/20050216060016/http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/mar05.asp)
Here's the chronicle as it looked in 2006. (http://web.archive.org/web/20060408130944/http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/mar05.asp)
Here's the chronicle as it looked in 2007. (http://web.archive.org/web/20070108012601/http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/mar05.asp)
Here's the chronicle as it looked in 2008. (http://web.archive.org/web/20080107103522/http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/mar05.asp)
When are you suggesting it was modified, Andreus? Did CCP pay to have the archive files edited too? Just to prove you wrong?
(It should be noted that the chron had minor adjustments between 2005 and 2006, but only adding things.)
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On another note, the founder of ORE, I'm don't think that it's meant to the man named in the chronicle. The chronicle doesn't name them as being the founder, it just seems to say that he worked for them.
That's a fair interpretation though I think at minimum the chron indicates he is a partner (my feeling is a founding partner) in the corporation rather than simply an employee. I think on reflection that you're right that strictly the chron and news pieces are not in contradiction.
That chron archive is useful to see. Thanks, Horatio. The minor changes between 2005 and 2006 appear to be rejigging the text a little without removing or adding anything substantive. Curious. I wonder if it was to do with a general move towards US English style that I recall taking place a few years back.
In all seriousness, when I discuss EVE background and fiction OOC, it is with some wish to be as fair and respectful to the material as possible. If I could see an argument that held together over any aspect of PF then I'd admit as much. I've done it before, will do it again if necessary.
Cosmo
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Well, for a mining corporation, you'd need someone with money for ships, someone who knows how to look for asteroids, and someone who knows how to mine them. Or various combinations of those.
I'd suggest Orion Mashel is more likely to be the man with the ships&money, and Yani Sar Arteu more likely to be the man who knows about rocks - the finding and mining of them.
Having them as partners in a new startup makes sense, absolutely. Buddies from another corporation, deciding to strike out on their own, after cashing in with their previous employers. It's how a lot of stories in other sci-fi settings start, isn't it?
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Money man and experienced prospector partnering up sounds about right, Louella.
Cosmo
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I think Andy is mis-remembering his source.
Outer Ring Excavations, or ORE, is the largest independent mining corporation around. ORE was originally a fledgling Gallentean company, but struck gold when they found extremely rich Nocxium asteroid belts in the Outer Ring region. When the Gallente Federation tried to force ORE to reveal the location of the asteroid fields the company left Gallentean space and set up base in the Outer Ring region. They used their massive wealth to buy protection for their bases and keep their operation secret. Several pirate factions have tried to muscle in on the ORE territories, but with little success.
A filthy rich corporation that disassociated itself from the Federation when it tried to encroach on the companies riches. ORE operates mainly in the Outer Ring and Cloud Ring regions, where they have mining installations scattered around in hidden locations, grinding out the most valuable minerals on the market.
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The minor changes between 2005 and 2006 appear to be rejigging the text a little without removing or adding anything substantive. Curious. I wonder if it was to do with a general move towards US English style that I recall taking place a few years back.
The changes are:
"is only formed during a supernova" ->
"forms only during supernovas"
"propelling the otherwise desolate cloud-ring into the limelight of international politics." ->
"propelling the otherwise desolate cloud ring into the international political limelight."
"been confirmed as only Arteu" ->
"been confirmed, as only Arteu"
"and they’re not likely to disclose its whereabouts." ->
"and are not about to disclose its location."
"going on weekly excavation expeditions." ->
"hunting it down on weekly excavation expeditions."
"flood the market with nocxium, bringing down the price." ->
"flood the market with nocxium, thus bringing down the price."
"In between they spend their energy on playing elaborate hide-and-seek games" ->
"In between, they spend their energy playing elaborate games of hide-and-seek"
"The empires monitor the goings on in Miennue" ->
"The empires monitor the goings-on in Miennue"
"but the ever increasing pressure from competitors makes it harder for them to keep their secret for much longer." ->
"but ever-increasing pressure from competitors is making it harder and harder for them to keep their secret safe much longer."
"Sooner or later any of the numerous methods employed by those pursuing the asteroid: bribes, threats, tracking devices, bugs, are bound to unveil the secret that Arteu has so meticulously kept concealed." ->
"Sooner or later, one of the numerous methods employed by those pursuing the asteroid -- bribes, threats, tracking devices, bugs -- is bound to unveil the secret that Arteu has so meticulously kept concealed."
"But in the meantime Arteu and Outer Ring Excavations are getting fantastically richer by the minute." ->
"In the meantime, Arteu and Outer Ring Excavations are getting richer -- fantastically so -- by the minute."
My theory would be that they put some dedicated copyeditors to work on the chronicle archives. Perhaps as part of the acquisition of White Wolf and their sizeable staff of dedicated writers.