Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Morwen Lagann on 20 Dec 2011, 11:57
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They're up!
Evelopedia's main page is here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Main_Page), and you can find the Fiction Portal here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Portal:EVE_Fiction).
Lots of stuff to read, some old and some new. But most of it should be useful for your arpeez! :3
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:eek:
wth weren't they gonna announce it first or something? this is like dropping the bomb on unsuspecting and frenzy mobs :lol:
i quickly gave it a look, specially to the direct links on the "lore frontpage".....this one got my attention
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Earth
MUCH MUCH better, goddamit, now it is believable within context.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Origins
needs a bit of rework based on the previous though....
/me goes to read some more
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For some reason I like the notion of a scientist suggesting all humanity originated from the same solar system and getting guffawed at by his peers.
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Holy. Shit. PF.
...'scuse me while I change my pants.
...there we go. Now, on more serious matters - as I said ingame (for those of you who were around), these new fiction articles really need some kind of a tag at the top explaining that all of the information available in the article is not instantly available to us IC.
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(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3995/1322501713979.jpg)
fuckin' sweet work
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Nice work, but i wan't them to add more info(PF) to the wiki.
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this demands another picture because holy fuck some of the information in here is amazing (http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5339/1320341146439.jpg)
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And for some reason, I can't see the new stuff, even after clearing the cache! Good on you, work IE8
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this demands another picture because holy fuck some of the information in here is amazing (http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/5339/1320341146439.jpg)
Such as? Point out what goodies you find so everyone can share.
And for some reason, I can't see the new stuff, even after clearing the cache! Good on you, work IE8
I've heard several people say the new Wiki doesn't come up. I suppose it hasn't fully propagated yet? Try flushing your DNS, that might work. Otherwise... just gotta wait.
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While it's still fresh in my head... soft-clones are official PF. :smug:
The second, less common, and more controversial method of cloning is known by a variety of names, such as soft-cloning, backup-cloning, and regression cloning. In this method, the individual submits to a slow, non-damaging backup scan of their brains, which takes an extended period of time to complete. Should the person suffer death, the copied brain scan is imprinted on a prepared clone body, and the person “wakes up” at the point of their last backup scan. All memories and experiences between their most recent backup and their death are unmade, as if they never happened to that person.
Because of this, far more people consider these sorts of clones to be copies and not the original person, though the techniques involved in both methods are quite similar, being differentiated primarily by the speed of the neural scanner. This factor leads to backup-clones being far less widespread than capsuleer clones, even though they are available to a wider portion of the population.
The real value in Capsuleer AD&D insurance comes when capsuleers exit their pods and leave behind the capsule's unique cloning technology. While true that a capsuleer who perishes outside his pod can be resurrected through a process called soft-cloning, true death results if the backup clone is also destroyed in the same event, or prior to it. Additionally, soft-cloning is not instantaneous and the capsuleer will lose all memories and experience accrued since the last backup.
Sources: 1 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Death#Cloning) and 2 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Capsuleer_Accidental_Death_and_Dismemberment_Insurance#Out-of-Pod)
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*watches the Wiki implode*
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Yup, its down.
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Damn, just when I was able to look at it, its all still down.
And I'm at work so I can't rage out loud about not getting my PF. Well I could, but I think men with butterfly nets would become involved soon there-after.
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Looks like it's back up again! Hopefully to stay this time.
I'd say it was worth the wait, though I imagine there is still a lot more to come.
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Happy days! (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Spirituality)
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GO AND TELL EVERYONE!!
Everyone??
(http://i.imgur.com/0L6hx.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/rHOfe.jpg)
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Happy days! (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Spirituality)
"... the Way is a cyclical fad in the Gallente Federation, where Gallente youth have sometimes used it as a symbol of rebellion. Such practice is considered blasphemous and disrespectful, though most Caldari tend to simply dismiss it as 'Gallente being Gallente.'"
(http://www.paulohsms.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/yao-ming-risada-meme.jpg)
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Amazing stuff.
Gottii's genetic background is now PF \o/
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:eek: So much PF...
Some of these articles are massive. Slavery is humungous (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery), as is Ni-Kunni (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ni-Kunni)...hopefully we'll see the other bloodlines fleshed out to such a degree.
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Have not gotten through all of yet but already spotted some good parts such as limiting the "official" information on the four ancient races, thereby allowing for more A'J wriggle room. Also highlighting different valid theories for our origins was superb.
And best of all is that the information I have collected in the Lorebook has not become redundant.
Except... Arzad Hamri (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Arzad_Hamri). If this information now is spreading among capsuleers there will be another topic for the Amarr-Minmatar to argue about.
And ups, w-space is in a distant galaxy (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sleepers_(lore))? That will break some bones.
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Speaking of ancient stuff, apparently the Jin-Mei might be an offshoot of the Yan Jung (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Lirsautton#Pre-history)...
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I guess I am one of those academics... (shameless link (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1568458)) Good to get another reference to work with.
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There's some excellent stuff in here.
There's also some content that reads as if a keen but misinformed Mercury volunteer was trying to connect the dots of the randomly-generated planetary data. And when that affects Matar I care. http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Matar
According to this they've canonised Matar being 85% water (which I believe was originally an error of the random planet-skinning) and an average of 32 degrees C (which, unless being a water planet really changes the maths, isn't "especially conducive to hosting life" as we know it: Earth's average temperature is around 15 degrees C, and we're really quite concerned about a 2-degree rise).
The Sebiestor homeland of Mikramurka has been turned into the continent of Mikramura (typo?). [Edited to note that this has now been fixed.]
The page doesn't seem to have a discussion page that I can edit. Does anyone know a good way to report PF "bugs"?
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My brain is melting... :eek:
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Soekheviti is again in Sol?
Also, another oddity: Muriya Mordu, the current commander of Mordu's Legion is the original Mordu? I mean, wouldn't that make him over 200 years old? I also thought for some reason he might be a capsuleer, that would kind of explain that... except that pretty sure he'd be then older than ol' Alex Noir, and another veteran of the Caldari-Gallente War. Unless Noir's biography is to be read "only remaining Gallente veteran". However, it would be kind of logical that if there's a Mordu heading Mordu's Legion Command, we'd be having something on the likes of grand-grand-grandsons of the Mordu.
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While it's still fresh in my head... soft-clones are official PF. :smug:
:D
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Nice. Very nice.
But...
A species of animals described as “fuzzy, pink teddy-bears” with grotesquely large eyes and mouths are used by the Amarr as a torture method. They are capable of saying “we... wuv... you” over and over. They were intended for children, but they were apparently found too unsettling. However, they manage to be effective at breaking prisoners, presumably because of how creepy they are.
Whut?
Linky (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Flora_and_fauna_%28NPCs%29)
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Oh god. I remember that being in one of the Chrons, 'Methods of Torture: the Amarr' IIRC. Though I thought they were some kind of automaton, not an animal...
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I'm reminded of a thread someone made on IGS about a similar toy. I think Aphoxema wrote it?
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According to this they've canonised Matar being 85% water (which I believe was originally an error of the random planet-skinning) and an average of 32 degrees C (which, unless being a water planet really changes the maths, isn't "especially conducive to hosting life" as we know it: Earth's average temperature is around 15 degrees C, and we're really quite concerned about a 2-degree rise).
I always assume those averages are to mean in the middle of the planet, as opposed to overall. Otherwise every temperate planet in game is too hot.
The Sebiestor homeland of Mikramurka has been turned into the continent of Mikramura (typo?).
Probably a typo.
The page doesn't seem to have a discussion page that I can edit. Does anyone know a good way to report PF "bugs"?
There should be a discussion page you can edit. I certainly see one.
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As we work through this, let's pull out snippets to go in Backstage's "Did you know... ?" rotation.
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Soekheviti is again in Sol?
http://eve-search.com/thread/1314015-0/page/29#856
"Someone equated it with Sukhavati, which was the abode of Amitābha. He is depicted as being red in color, and when not alone, he's depicted as having two lesser companions. Mars, anyone?"
Even if it can't be conclusively linked to Mars, the timeline entry specifically says they settle *on* Soekheviti and that it is a planet. That means it is one of the terrestrial planets - so Mercury, Venus, Earth or Mars. Earth'd be out of the running, so even then it'd be a 33.33...% of it being Mars. Mercury is very unsuitable for colonization and long-term habitation, so that leaves Mars and Venus. The caustic pressure-cooker climate of Venus' surface also makes it extremely hostile. Thus, if you're going to settle *on* a planet in the Sol system it's gotta be Mars.
It's possible for argument's sake to suggest that the Terrans had geoengineering capabilities at that time able to make Venus or even Mercury habitable, but I'd rather go for the path of least resistance. (Also, one could argue that the first Soekheviti things were written back when Pluto was still a planet, but that ball of snow and gravel is even less suitable for living on...)
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The assumption is that it is a planet and not a world. The two terms could be lost/merged as a language develops. This would leave open the possibility that Soekheviti is actually a moon of Jupiter or Saturn. Some of Saturn's larger moons have companion moons at their Lagrange points.
But since the Forgotten Age is not-IC, most will assume it is Mars.
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The timeline is word of god from an OOC perspective. If it wasn't, the debate whether humanity all came from the same point of origin wouldn't exist.
Thus Soekheviti being a planet isn't something that would have been warped in translation, just like Caldari Prime being bought by a corporation for colonization or Gallente Prime being settled by people from Tau-Ceti isn't something warped in translation - because it's not known in the actual setting.
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I am disappointed that more people are not talking about the new content in the FP. No one wants to get into deep discussions about: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Spirituality ?
Or no one's decided that the information here is pretty awesome: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hueromont ?
Or is everyone still digesting all the cool stuff on there?
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I am disappointed that more people are not talking about the new content in the FP. No one wants to get into deep discussions about: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Spirituality ?
Or no one's decided that the information here is pretty awesome: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hueromont ?
Or is everyone still digesting all the cool stuff on there?
One does not discuss on Backstage. But pretty awesome, yes.
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Where does one discuss then? I must be out of the loop for discussions.
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Have been discussing with, y'know, the people I discuss things with. One of whom pointed out a Matari dance style (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ruhste) that had been mentioned in a Chronicle I missed (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sand_Giants_%28Chronicle%29).
Also have houseguests with baby, holiday, beautiful weather (no irony at all: my city on a good day is stunning, and we're having a string of those) and slightly different priorities that involve dipping into the new PF rather than plunging.
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Sadly I only plunge. And am not good at bringing up debate points, merely arguing them endlessly.
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hueromont ?
indeed pretty awesome
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Where does one discuss then? I must be out of the loop for discussions.
We could have an awkward discussion via PMs if you like. I'm very pleased and intrigued by the compiled Caldari religious belief structure. Really dig it.
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I'd love to see more discussion here. I realised after I'd posted that that might not be clear: it's just that most of the discussion I have had so far has been elsewhere.
I understand the power the old Cold Wind chronicle had for many at the time, but there's an element of Herko-ness to it that it find uncomfortable. I also find the gendering of the winds and "Heart-of-the-Forest" awkward: a society which comes up with that mythos "should" have a particular view of gender roles which I hadn't seen explicitly elsewhere in Caldari background.
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I'm not sure I understand the problem of there being a "Herko-ness" to anything. I always felt he was good at evoking the mixed horror/beauty that was the EVE setting. He influenced my perception of the EVE universe heavily, at least, and I know he did several others as well.
As for the gender roles, we unfortunately only see a single female spirit. So it's difficult to draw gender conclusions too greatly simply from that one example, especially as Heart-of-the-Forest is depicted as both protected by the Winds and harmed by them, while being a protector and a teacher. The gender relations in most of the empires are poorly defined anyway, aside from a few references in character creation that don't really paint much of a whole picture. In general, New Eden appears to have almost utter equality between the genders. Considering the societal level of New Eden, plus the age of the religion, it doesn't seem too surprising that there might be gender roles defined in it that are not supported in the modern society.
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The timeline is word of god from an OOC perspective. If it wasn't, the debate whether humanity all came from the same point of origin wouldn't exist.
Thus Soekheviti being a planet isn't something that would have been warped in translation, just like Caldari Prime being bought by a corporation for colonization or Gallente Prime being settled by people from Tau-Ceti isn't something warped in translation - because it's not known in the actual setting.
No disagreement, although I think it would have been cool if it had been a moon of Saturn.
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Or no one's decided that the information here is pretty awesome: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Hueromont ?
Except I trip and stumble in the very first sentence!
Hueromont (meaning “Hollow Mountain”) is a megalopolis located on Gallente Prime and is the ninth largest city in the Gallente Federation, with over thirty-six million inhabitants in the greater metropolitan area.
The 9th Largest City in the whole Gallente Federation is only slightly large than modern Tokyo?
Maybe most people don't live planetside. I have a hard time wrapping my head around how a major metro on any New Eden core world would be only slightly bigger than Earth's largest metros today.
It gets back to this idea of scale when writing Eve's fiction. :bash:
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So the 9th largest single city in the Federation is larger than the most populous city on Earth? That doesn't seem too outrageous to me. How big do you expect individual cities to be? Most people likely do live on planets, but that doesn't mean they are all packed into a single city like sardines. Tokyo is overcrowded as it is. How many more people could you possibly fit into a metro area before it simply becomes unlivable?
It's not that there are going to be cities with a billion people in them; it's that there are going to be thousands of cities the size of New York. There are thousands of planets in Gallente space. Hundreds of them are probably temperate worlds that are inhabited, each with several large cities of 20-30 million.
Even the core worlds I would expect to not have more than 10-15 billion people on them. That's pushing up against the amount of people you can fit on a single Earth-sized planet comfortably. Especially for the Federation, which is supposedly all up in the terraforming of planets, presumably to settle people on and spread the population out some.
Assuming that everything must linearly scale with population numbers is making a mistake. Yeah, there are an order of magnitude more people in New Eden than there are on Earth. That doesn't immediately mean that you have cities with 100 times as many people with the same number of cities. It means you have 100 times as many cities with the same number of people. Or, rather, somewhere in between. Which, considering the 9th largest city in the Federation has more people in it than the largest city on Earth, those 8 other larger cities must be pretty huge.
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I think a civilization capable of terraforming worlds and building orbiting stations also can build very "vertical" cities, where the population per km2 is pretty dense, but the density per km3 is "nice."
It just makes me pause and think, "do I expect hives or New York City?" I am thinking Hong Kong & Tokyo taken to extremes, with buildings stretching to the sky. Maybe I have the wrong idea.
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That just doesn't seem like the Gallente style to me. The few pictures we have of Gallente cities, such as the art for the Crystal Boulevard and Hometown Heroes chrons, show skyscrapers with big, open skies behind them. I'm sure they could build giant hives, but do they want to? Do they need to? There seems to be plenty of space for them to inhabit without building massive arcologies.
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[mod]Not a matter of rules, so much as presenting another possibility: Feel free to start thread for any given article you want to discuss the implications, etc. of. That way each one people want to talk about can have it's own, and we have cohesive discussions.[/mod]
On a less mod-y note, I have been working almost constantly, so I haven't had any time to go over all this new stuff. Very much looking forward to it.
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I'm not sure I understand the problem of there being a "Herko-ness" to anything. I always felt he was good at evoking the mixed horror/beauty that was the EVE setting. He influenced my perception of the EVE universe heavily, at least, and I know he did several others as well.
He was a loved and influential chronicler of EVE. I, personally, find that his writing tends to push through my zone of "this is deep and intense" to "I'm having trouble accepting this seriously any longer". That's a matter of personal taste. I think it's great that people like you and Graelyn loved an EVE-writer's work so much, and I agree that exposure to Herko's writings strongly colours some players' perceptions of the world of EVE. And every player of a Caldari character should know at least Cold Wind.
As for the gender roles, we unfortunately only see a single female spirit. So it's difficult to draw gender conclusions too greatly simply from that one example, especially as Heart-of-the-Forest is depicted as both protected by the Winds and harmed by them, while being a protector and a teacher.
Indeed, we don't know whether we're seeing a biased selection. Do you think we are, though?
First for a question from me: have we heard of Heart-of-the-Forest before? My recollection of the Caldari pantheon was that it was all male and only the winds, alongside a Shinto-like ancestor cult. My impression of the Caldari homeworld was that it was either an ice planet or tundra, too cold for trees, although I'm less certain of that and the current description of the world (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Prime#Geography) gives it a temperate equatorial zone and good productivity.
I find the addition of Heart-of-the-Forest makes for an internally-plausible mythic balance, and quite a powerful one. And I find myself thinking of it as "Wendy and the Lost Boys". I also wonder how it would be used in rhetoric, cultural references, and the personal branding of aspiring executives.
The gender relations in most of the empires are poorly defined anyway, aside from a few references in character creation that don't really paint much of a whole picture. In general, New Eden appears to have almost utter equality between the genders. Considering the societal level of New Eden, plus the age of the religion, it doesn't seem too surprising that there might be gender roles defined in it that are not supported in the modern society.
Oh, there's been a long, hard dark age living in tunnels under the surface while the marooned planet progressed through its partial terraforming, followed by huge changes. It's quite possible--even likely--that there have been major social changes. But what was the dark age culture, and why? And what are things really like now?
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The Caldari spirituality article reads like a giant wankfest in "caldari r awsumsauce" I feel. While it doesn't necessarily need to be two-sided like other articles, it doesn't have a very encyclopedic/academic flare to it, unlike elsewhere.
Stuff like...
Storm Wind is the fiercest of the Winds, aside from an enraged Cold Wind, but also has a playful side, dancing among the peaks and teasing Mountain Wind
Compare to the objective outlook many other articles have, it's almost cheesy. The Hueromont article is great because it's really good at showing a two-sided approach to the city, and even matters that APPEAR one-sided, the downsides/criticisms are more subtle/indirect (that does sum up the Federation's downsides, doesn't it? You have to be clever to point out the flaws from apparently awesome things).
Speaking of Hueromont...this article suggests the issues of overpopulation with the Gallente (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Underwater_cities). There is no need to burden your infrastructure and the local environment by having massive cities, when you can shift the population to other cities across hundreds of worlds, underwater, and maybe even in the sky (floating sky cities?). That's what I reckon, anyway.
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There is an interesting conflict.
There is the Category:Lore (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:Lore), which has a ton of interesting articles about all the various things in Eve. However, the "old" corporation entries still exist as well.
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Looks like they aim to flesh out all the NPC corps?
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Sort of...
They copy-pasted, changed tags (ref) for the Lai Dai Corporation (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Lai_Dai_Corporation) page from my test entry (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Lai_Dai_Corporation_(NPC_Corp_v2_Test)).
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Sort of...
They copy-pasted, changed tags (ref) for the Lai Dai Corporation (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Lai_Dai_Corporation) page from my test entry (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Lai_Dai_Corporation_(NPC_Corp_v2_Test)).
Nice test entry. I'd love to see more NPC groups with this information gathered together.
(I suspect a number of us have made similar lists of the ships favoured NPC groups build and the places where they're active.)
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Sort of...
They copy-pasted, changed tags (ref) for the Lai Dai Corporation (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Lai_Dai_Corporation) page from my test entry (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Lai_Dai_Corporation_(NPC_Corp_v2_Test)).
Nice test entry. I'd love to see more NPC groups with this information gathered together.
(I suspect a number of us have made similar lists of the ships favoured NPC groups build and the places where they're active.)
My biggest concern is that we are going to be barred from updating the Lore section in order to keep it "clean."
To me this will make it harder to consolidate useful Lore information from scattered sources and connect dots that are not readily apparent.
Eventually I think it would be great if the NPC descriptions in the database pointed to the wiki pages. Integration with the in-game browser and item links could make it a useful in-game tool.
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Going from the giant "Locked" there, it does appear we are barred from contributing. Which is good, considering someone wrote how the Gallente were "ultrasocialist" on the page for the New Caldari.
The consolidation thing appears to be the job of Abraxas and his guys, I think. That's what the devblog mentioned anyway.
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I understand the power the old Cold Wind chronicle had for many at the time, but there's an element of Herko-ness to it that it find uncomfortable. I also find the gendering of the winds and "Heart-of-the-Forest" awkward: a society which comes up with that mythos "should" have a particular view of gender roles which I hadn't seen explicitly elsewhere in Caldari background.
Yeah, I find it a bit odd because the Caldari have previously been mentioned to be the most gender-neutral society of the four.
Then again, Iceland is considered the most egalitarian state in the world by varying organizations, and they very much had gendered gods and spirits in the pagan times.
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I understand the power the old Cold Wind chronicle had for many at the time, but there's an element of Herko-ness to it that it find uncomfortable. I also find the gendering of the winds and "Heart-of-the-Forest" awkward: a society which comes up with that mythos "should" have a particular view of gender roles which I hadn't seen explicitly elsewhere in Caldari background.
Yeah, I find it a bit odd because the Caldari have previously been mentioned to be the most gender-neutral society of the four.
Then again, Iceland is considered the most egalitarian state in the world by varying organizations, and they very much had gendered gods and spirits in the pagan times.
It may not have always been so. Heart-of-the-Forest could have been part of the earliest Caldari narrative which has since (theoretically) evolved into the gender-neutral nation we've had described in the "current" fiction. The tradition, being so important to the culture, might have been preserved regardless of the change.
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Going from the giant "Locked" there, it does appear we are barred from contributing. Which is good, considering someone wrote how the Gallente were "ultrasocialist" on the page for the New Caldari.
The consolidation thing appears to be the job of Abraxas and his guys, I think. That's what the devblog mentioned anyway.
How is it a good thing?
You can edit (and I did) the New Caldari page to remove the description of the Gallente as being "ultrasocialist." Now, the same cannot be said for you wanting to provide additional information to build an article up.
For example the Black Eagles (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Black_Eagles) article, might be one you are interested in contributing to; perhaps by providing a timeline of news events in which Black Eagle involvement is likely or by fixing their broken image link. Or maybe just fixing small things like typos (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente_Executive_Order_81042) that create bad links.
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I'm not sure I understand the problem of there being a "Herko-ness" to anything. I always felt he was good at evoking the mixed horror/beauty that was the EVE setting. He influenced my perception of the EVE universe heavily, at least, and I know he did several others as well.
He was a loved and influential chronicler of EVE. I, personally, find that his writing tends to push through my zone of "this is deep and intense" to "I'm having trouble accepting this seriously any longer". That's a matter of personal taste. I think it's great that people like you and Graelyn loved an EVE-writer's work so much, and I agree that exposure to Herko's writings strongly colours some players' perceptions of the world of EVE. And every player of a Caldari character should know at least Cold Wind.
As for the gender roles, we unfortunately only see a single female spirit. So it's difficult to draw gender conclusions too greatly simply from that one example, especially as Heart-of-the-Forest is depicted as both protected by the Winds and harmed by them, while being a protector and a teacher.
Indeed, we don't know whether we're seeing a biased selection. Do you think we are, though?
First for a question from me: have we heard of Heart-of-the-Forest before? My recollection of the Caldari pantheon was that it was all male and only the winds, alongside a Shinto-like ancestor cult. My impression of the Caldari homeworld was that it was either an ice planet or tundra, too cold for trees, although I'm less certain of that and the current description of the world (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Prime#Geography) gives it a temperate equatorial zone and good productivity.
I find the addition of Heart-of-the-Forest makes for an internally-plausible mythic balance, and quite a powerful one. And I find myself thinking of it as "Wendy and the Lost Boys". I also wonder how it would be used in rhetoric, cultural references, and the personal branding of aspiring executives.
Edited to clarify, though, that I read this as the mythology of a society with definite default gender roles, and I'm now trying to work out ways to reconcile this with the rest of my assumptions about Caldari society. The Caldari dark age might want some fleshing out: what happened to Caldari society when conditions were really hard on Caldari Prime?
The gender relations in most of the empires are poorly defined anyway, aside from a few references in character creation that don't really paint much of a whole picture. In general, New Eden appears to have almost utter equality between the genders. Considering the societal level of New Eden, plus the age of the religion, it doesn't seem too surprising that there might be gender roles defined in it that are not supported in the modern society.
Oh, there's been a long, hard dark age living in tunnels under the surface while the marooned planet progressed through its partial terraforming, followed by huge changes. It's quite possible--even likely--that there have been major social changes. But what was the dark age culture, and why? And what are things really like now?
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The Caldari Spirituality page seems appropriate in tone to me. The article is about the religion itself. Compare it to something like the Wikipedia article on Thor, which contains passages like this: "Thor's exploits, including his relentless slaughter of his foes and fierce battles with the monstrous serpent Jörmungandr—and their foretold mutual deaths during the events of Ragnarök—are recorded throughout sources for Norse mythology" and "The ferryman, shouting from the inlet, is immediately rude and obnoxious to Thor and refuses to ferry him. At first, Thor holds his tongue, but Hárbarðr only becomes more aggressive, and the poem soon becomes a flyting match between Thor and Hárbarð" (emphasis mine). Articles about religion are allowed to be mildly more flowery in nature, thanks to the subject matter involving things like beliefs and myth.
Additionally, I believe it takes a very cynical view to label the article with such simplistic terms as "Caldari r teh awesum". It does not posit that the religion is superior to others, or that the Caldari are superior thanks to their beliefs. Aside from the descriptions of the spirits, it is fairly straightforward and factual.
How is it a good thing?
You can edit (and I did) the New Caldari page to remove the description of the Gallente as being "ultrasocialist." Now, the same cannot be said for you wanting to provide additional information to build an article up.
For example the Black Eagles article, might be one you are interested in contributing to; perhaps by providing a timeline of news events in which Black Eagle involvement is likely or by fixing their broken image link. Or maybe just fixing small things like typos that create bad links.
It's a good thing because it sets information in stone and allows the fiction to be explored in much greater depth. Yes, it prevents people from adding to the articles themselves. But could players, for example, add in the information given here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_Family ? I think not. And an article that is constantly open to player editing would get messy, especially if players happened to disagree with certain interpretations of PF.
There are obvious downsides, such as the inability to quickly correct typos that players notice. But the advantages of having CCP control over articles outweigh them, I believe.
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How is it a good thing?
You can edit (and I did) the New Caldari page to remove the description of the Gallente as being "ultrasocialist." Now, the same cannot be said for you wanting to provide additional information to build an article up.
For example the Black Eagles article, might be one you are interested in contributing to; perhaps by providing a timeline of news events in which Black Eagle involvement is likely or by fixing their broken image link. Or maybe just fixing small things like typos that create bad links.
It's a good thing because it sets information in stone and allows the fiction to be explored in much greater depth. Yes, it prevents people from adding to the articles themselves. But could players, for example, add in the information given here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_Family ? I think not. And an article that is constantly open to player editing would get messy, especially if players happened to disagree with certain interpretations of PF.
There are obvious downsides, such as the inability to quickly correct typos that players notice. But the advantages of having CCP control over articles outweigh them, I believe.
A picture of the actual seal?
Maybe a picture of the region which bears the name Khanid?
Maybe a section between Rebellion & Modern Day on what the Khanid Family has investments in (like the various Khanid corporations) and the ties to the Caldari corporations, based on data presented elsewhere?
The Khanid Family page is a great example of a page based on other CCP-generated content. The page is not the original source for most of the material in the article.
If a CCP lore related article gets messy, with a few users going back and forth and destroying each others work, I think that is when volunteers/staff steps in to moderate and lock the article in question. They can then decide what the page should show. Are there some pages that should be perma-locked? Sure, Chronicles or CCP-generated content that has no outside references.
Now, consider a PC Corporation's or Alliance's page. If a load of Goons decide to cause havoc on the Band of Brothers (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Band_of_brothers) page, should CCP revert & lock the BoB page to further edits indefinitely (for how long)? What if a member of Band of brothers wants to improve upon the page, adding content at a later time?
Lastly, if you connect various plot lines or think it would useful when reading an article that it link to another one in order to explore the fiction in greater depth, wouldn't it be nice if you could do that for others?
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I guess we're just looking at this from different viewpoints.
I want the Fiction Portal to be a sort of "source book" for the EVE back story. The kind of thing you'd get if you picked up a tabletop game supplement, which has set-in-stone data for players to use as a reference.
I don't disagree that you've got definite points in favor of leaving it open. It looks like CCP's gone in the direction of keeping them closed, but maybe they can figure out some middle ground. Alternately, Abraxas said he's watching the discussion pages for all the FP stuff. So I guess leave comments on them and they'll possibly add stuff if they believe it to be necessary.
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That just doesn't seem like the Gallente style to me. The few pictures we have of Gallente cities, such as the art for the Crystal Boulevard and Hometown Heroes chrons, show skyscrapers with big, open skies behind them. I'm sure they could build giant hives, but do they want to? Do they need to? There seems to be plenty of space for them to inhabit without building massive arcologies.
I'm far, far from knowing terribly much about Gallente PF, but didn't the very early "Gallente" Racial paintings look extremely, I don't know, 'cyberpunk'? with sleek green future-cityscapes and goggled neo-tokyo looking background characters? Has that sort of imagery been pushed to the back these days?
I seem to remember a lot of early Gallente Imagery like this:
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/17166/1190606-gallente_large.jpg
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I'm far, far from knowing terribly much about Gallente PF, but didn't the very early "Gallente" Racial paintings look extremely, I don't know, 'cyberpunk'? with sleek green future-cityscapes and goggled neo-tokyo looking background characters? Has that sort of imagery been pushed to the back these days?
I seem to remember a lot of early Gallente Imagery like this:
http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/17166/1190606-gallente_large.jpg
I'm not sure that that image tells us much about the population density of Gallente space. :)
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If a CCP lore related article gets messy, with a few users going back and forth and destroying each others work, I think that is when volunteers/staff steps in to moderate and lock the article in question. They can then decide what the page should show.
from the devblog, it looks like they just don't have the staff to do that.
For a short while, some of the pages, like chronicles and other pages, item descriptions, various other things, were open to player edits. A player edited many of them, inserting self-promotion things everywhere. And that was just 1 player. reverting things, locking things, takes a non-zero amount of time for a volunteer/staff person.
The articles in question have been reverted and are now locked.
Maybe this experience has led to a policy here. They've looked and seen what happens when players can edit PF stuff, and found that the potential benefits are outweighed by the amount of repair work needed when something goes wrong.
In Shae Tiann's blog thing a while back, I think she mentioned that the people that lost jobs, a large number of them were in Content, i.e. people that would be doing stuff with the Evelopedia and other PF related things.
So, unfortunately, I think that the locks and things are needed because for the time being, there just isn't the staff to do things in any other way. :(
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Again, I think there are articles that should be locked. These are articles which there is nothing a player can add to, like Chronicles.
Item descriptions are an area players might be able to add useful content and have in the past.
Consider Moon-Material Reaction or Planetary Commodity chains as an example of item descriptions where player editing makes them more useful and relieves CCP of having to do the leg work to connect the dots. It was* immensely helpfully to be able to click through the reaction chains from the T2 component down to the basic moon material and understand what was in between. CCP does not have this setup yet in the database. Luckily Items are not locked, so users can add information along the bottom.
*It appears the update has broken some links or should spend a little time when I use it adding basic content to the items page.
At the end of the day it is CCP's decision what they want to make Evelopedia. I respect that, but it does not mean I cannot complain about the decision.
If it is meant to be a sourcebook, then some of us (myself included) need to reduce our expectations of what Evelopedia can be. We might be lucky enough to have a record of some of the history players help create, like the Great Northern War (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Great_Northern_War) or a history of Band of Brothers (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Band_of_brothers). But it would mean that pages for Lai Dai Infinity Systems (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Lai_Dai_Infinity_Systems_(Player_corporation)) or NARAKA. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Naraka._(Player_alliance)) would not exist. They are not important enough to rate a page in the greater story of Eve.
On the other hand, if it is meant to be a wiki, then I think a much smaller portion of Evelopedia should be locked. In my opinion, only when CCP is truly providing content through Evelopedia would the page be locked. Chronicles are an example, but even they are not just posted to Evelopedia, and arguably links of references at the bottom and links to eve-unique terms might add to the Chronicle.
As for player abuse, it becomes the duty of the community to fix those errors as much as CCP. Its a wiki, the reader is warned. The benefit of a wiki is if you see a problem (like someone calling the Gallente ultrasocialist), you can fix it!
Immediately seeing a page is locked/with CCP edits makes it a scared page that is forever immutable, even if it is wrong and in exact opposition to something CCP's other material. A knowledgeable user might select an area they are knowledgeable about and watch the pages for changes, checking the changes to Drone Regions or Black Eagles for what changes are made, by whom and with what references. You can be a steward, a volunteer without CCP's "official" blessing other than that it is a wiki for every user to edit. Players are the staff to watch pages and point areas of conflict to the staff.
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EVElopedia at large and the Fiction Portal are two separate, but related entities. The Fiction Portal, which is locked, has backstory information in it. This is information that a player can, theoretically, add to by updating backstory as it is released by CCP, but cannot actually add any original information to. And if CCP is putting out backstory, then they can just as easily update the pages at the same time to account for it.
The greater EVElopedia, which contains things like the Item Database, player alliance and corp profiles, or guides to gameplay mechanics, is not locked. They are open and editable by players. As they should be.
If you're afraid that the entire EVElopedia will become like the Fiction Portal, I think your worries are unfounded.
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Are player events from 5-years ago backstory at this point?
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Anyone else get the feeling CCP and co have been watching these forums for ideas? Lots of player interpretations snaking there way in I noticed
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Anyone else get the feeling CCP and co have been watching these forums for ideas? Lots of player interpretations snaking there way in I noticed
Don't make me dream, Seri, you'll ruin my bittervet potential. :c
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Anyone else get the feeling CCP and co have been watching these forums for ideas? Lots of player interpretations snaking there way in I noticed
While it's possible, keep in mind also that a lot of player interpretations have become so widespread people sometimes mistook them for PF - and they come from Chatsubo, IGS, the better-known player fiction, and IG discussions too, among other places.
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Anyone else get the feeling CCP and co have been watching these forums for ideas? Lots of player interpretations snaking there way in I noticed
While it's possible, keep in mind also that a lot of player interpretations have become so widespread people sometimes mistook them for PF - and they come from Chatsubo, IGS, the better-known player fiction, and IG discussions too, among other places.
If something shows up about voice activated holographic sticky notes or Mannar holonovelas, I'ma gonna start wearing a tinfoil beret.
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Anyone else get the feeling CCP and co have been watching these forums for ideas? Lots of player interpretations snaking there way in I noticed
While it's possible, keep in mind also that a lot of player interpretations have become so widespread people sometimes mistook them for PF - and they come from Chatsubo, IGS, the better-known player fiction, and IG discussions too, among other places.
If something shows up about voice activated holographic sticky notes or Mannar holonovelas, I'ma gonna start wearing a tinfoil beret.
Why? Both seem like simple enough applications of what appears to be pretty standard technology. It would seem straight-forward today to develop software for mobile devices which is a voice activated sticky note. You have only added the holographic part.
I think we (those who care about it) have a lot more influence on the details of background than we give ourselves credit for. Our interpretations and extrapolations of snippets and pieces of fluff lead to "world facts."
Sometimes we get lucky. Lai Dai Employee Justice Code (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=762966) mentioned by me (via alt), totally made up. Followed by comments by retired Lai Dai Tribunal Justice (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1978&tid=6). My post is 5 days before the news article. Are they related? It could have been any of 8 megacorporations and could have been any type of "executive." Would the news article have contained a retired Lai Dai Tribunal Justice if I had not mentioned the idea of a Lai Dai Employee Justice Code 5 days earlier? Ask ISD Katerina Markova.
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And ups, w-space is in a distant galaxy (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Sleepers_(lore))? That will break some bones.
As it happens, I was looking up stuff about the Seyllin disaster just recently, and this bit about w-space being in a distant galaxy is not really new PF. It was mentioned in this Scope news article (http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2890&tid=4) back in 2009 when the expansion hit, so I guess anyone who feels their bones breaking now has just missed the info for three years. :(
As for the debate about the Fiction Portal pages being locked, if players could go in and update the pages, we'd immediately have a blurring of lines between what is actually CCP-sanctioned PF and what is everyone's interpretation of it. The Fiction Portal would no longer be a definitive source of PF, and isn't that the whole point of it? I thought it was. I see it more like an encyclopedia from the bookstore, not an actual wiki, even though it happens to be included in the same framework as one.
But there are Discussion tabs for all of those locked pages. This being the best bet to get something noticed, definitely going to make use of it rather than hoping someone happens to see something on a forum.
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To everyone complaining about locked Fiction Portal entries: There's this thing called "Intellectual Property". CCP owns it. Despite the investment that we as players have in it, we have no more right to change their IP without their permission than they do to go into our blogs and change out player-created fiction to meet PF standards.
There is a section for Player-Created Fiction. I had no issues uploading my own work into it, and clearly others have likewise done so. Player-created bits of the EVE universe can easily fit there.
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Did anyone else notice the Admiral Noir page in the wiki? I'll get right to the :eek: moment for me.
"It was these efforts that led to his being selected to lead the military escort for the delegation that was dispatched to Malkalen. He was selected to fly the "FNS Wandering Saint" - a Nyx-class mothership - at the head of the Gallente fleet. He never got the opportunity, however, as he was murdered in his own home by The Broker, who assumed Noir's cloned form."
If that is public knowledge, doesn't it sort of throw a King Kong sized monkey wrench into one of the reasons for the recent flare in Gallente/Caldari hostilities?
Of course maybe this is just news to me, in which case I'll scurry on back under my blanket of perceived neutrality.
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Did anyone else notice the Admiral Noir page in the wiki? I'll get right to the :eek: moment for me.
"It was these efforts that led to his being selected to lead the military escort for the delegation that was dispatched to Malkalen. He was selected to fly the "FNS Wandering Saint" - a Nyx-class mothership - at the head of the Gallente fleet. He never got the opportunity, however, as he was murdered in his own home by The Broker, who assumed Noir's cloned form."
If that is public knowledge, doesn't it sort of throw a King Kong sized monkey wrench into one of the reasons for the recent flare in Gallente/Caldari hostilities?
Of course maybe this is just news to me, in which case I'll scurry on back under my blanket of perceived neutrality.
It is Info from the Empyrean Age novel. The same counts for this: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jamyl_I#Apparent_Death_and_Cloning
And yes it is a gamechanger for IGS and some RP, but you always can say... you play your Char "In Character" and the wiki gives us just "god like infos". In german the "allwissender Erzähler" in english most likely to compare with: Omniscient narrator.
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They're not really the same thing, in terms of RP, though.
With Jamyl, it is mind-bogglingly obvious she's a clone. She committed ritual suicide, and then came back several years later. Call it what you like, you don't come back from the dead like that without a clone. Some people seem to confuse toeing the party line and regurgitating the "OMG IT'S A MIRACLE SO IGNORE THE GODFLESH DOCTRINE" noise the TC has forcefed them with an inability to know (provably) that Jamyl is a clone. Anyone (or any character) who understands how the cloning process works would easily be able to see that Jamyl is a clone. Someone made a comment somewhere (Lallara or Silas, on this forum I think?) that anyone who supports Jamyl's reign has no real grounds to call themselves a "conservative" Amarrian. They're not wrong. :p
On the other hand, with Noir you have a celebrated Admiral who was known for his peace efforts, suddenly pulling an about-face and committing one of the greatest atrocities of the "modern" era (in terms of EVE, anyway) without any warning at all. Sure, it's perfectly plausible that it was "someone else" and not Noir himself, but nobody can cast reasonable doubt on it having been Noir himself. All anyone can prove is that someone wearing Noir's body was flying that Nyx, and that whoever it was turned and did something nobody would have ever expected of Noir at the worst possible time. But with no actual evidence beyond completely unexpected behavior, there's not enough to put someone other than Admiral Noir himself inside the Admiral Noir suit and make the "it was an impostor!" claims dissimilar to the "9/11 was an inside job!" or "there was no moon landing!" claims some people make in the real world.
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To everyone complaining about locked Fiction Portal entries: There's this thing called "Intellectual Property". CCP owns it. Despite the investment that we as players have in it, we have no more right to change their IP without their permission than they do to go into our blogs and change out player-created fiction to meet PF standards.
There is a section for Player-Created Fiction. I had no issues uploading my own work into it, and clearly others have likewise done so. Player-created bits of the EVE universe can easily fit there.
Just be mindful of the exclusivity clause in the EULA. Not really a concern for small stuff, but for works that could stand alone (or have the EVE serial numbers filed off some day when you decide to publish a fiction collection) it's worth remembering that unless you have an agreement to the contrary:
11. C. User Content
The System may allow you to communicate information, such as by posting messages in chat rooms, on bulletin boards and other user-to-user areas (collectively, "User Content").
[....]
You hereby grant CCP an exclusive, perpetual, worldwide, irrevocable, assignable, royalty-free license, fully sublicensable through multiple tiers, to exercise all intellectual property and other rights, in and to all or any part of your User Content, in any medium now known or hereafter developed.
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Did anyone else notice the Admiral Noir page in the wiki? I'll get right to the :eek: moment for me.
"It was these efforts that led to his being selected to lead the military escort for the delegation that was dispatched to Malkalen. He was selected to fly the "FNS Wandering Saint" - a Nyx-class mothership - at the head of the Gallente fleet. He never got the opportunity, however, as he was murdered in his own home by The Broker, who assumed Noir's cloned form."
If that is public knowledge, doesn't it sort of throw a King Kong sized monkey wrench into one of the reasons for the recent flare in Gallente/Caldari hostilities?
Of course maybe this is just news to me, in which case I'll scurry on back under my blanket of perceived neutrality.
I do believe that page hasn't recieved a makeover. It's the same one from the previous EVElopedia IIRC...but it isn't exactly clear as a layman what bits would be OOC or IC knowledge.
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Articles like the Malkalen-disaster really should be divided into two parts: IC and OOC, aka "What your char knows" and "What really happened". That also applies to Jamyl. Everone knows she is a clone, but her strange abilities can't be explained by that.
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Did anyone else notice the Admiral Noir page in the wiki? I'll get right to the :eek: moment for me.
"It was these efforts that led to his being selected to lead the military escort for the delegation that was dispatched to Malkalen. He was selected to fly the "FNS Wandering Saint" - a Nyx-class mothership - at the head of the Gallente fleet. He never got the opportunity, however, as he was murdered in his own home by The Broker, who assumed Noir's cloned form."
If that is public knowledge, doesn't it sort of throw a King Kong sized monkey wrench into one of the reasons for the recent flare in Gallente/Caldari hostilities?
Of course maybe this is just news to me, in which case I'll scurry on back under my blanket of perceived neutrality.
I do believe that page hasn't recieved a makeover. It's the same one from the previous EVElopedia IIRC...but it isn't exactly clear as a layman what bits would be OOC or IC knowledge.
Unless the page has an IC-tag somewhere in it, it is all OOC.
Wouldn't it be nice if a player who was around in 2008 and watched the events unfold through their character's eyes could build a section "What Appeared to Happen?" with the IC-tag & all?
To everyone complaining about locked Fiction Portal entries: There's this thing called "Intellectual Property". CCP owns it. Despite the investment that we as players have in it, we have no more right to change their IP without their permission than they do to go into our blogs and change out player-created fiction to meet PF standards.
There is a section for Player-Created Fiction. I had no issues uploading my own work into it, and clearly others have likewise done so. Player-created bits of the EVE universe can easily fit there.
I get it, CCP owns their IP and they can do with it what they want.
My complaint is that more than a few of the locked entries are worthless.
TLXX-01 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/TLXX-01) - I have commented in discussion and recommended the page be made a redirect to Sellyin. No response one way or another.
Republic Fleet (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Republic_Fleet) - representative of most NPC corporate pages. They do not even show the corporation's logo.
Go to the Evelopedia start page and find player fiction via clicks, let me know what path you take to get there. Not a search "player fiction," but by clicking on links from the home page.
If Evelopedia is meant to be the go to place for players to get information about the game(s) world, CCP is taking on a huge task by barring players from assisting in the actual editing of pages and relegating us to data collection and consolidation on discussion pages. Even then, when a player does take the time to point out simple, straight-forward, improvement (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Tibus_Heth) to a page, he is informed the page will not be updated until CCP gets a hold of a copy of their own book.
I am frustrated by this situation. But I get it, it is CCP's own IP and they can protect it however they want. :bash:
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Did anyone else notice the Admiral Noir page in the wiki? I'll get right to the :eek: moment for me.
"It was these efforts that led to his being selected to lead the military escort for the delegation that was dispatched to Malkalen. He was selected to fly the "FNS Wandering Saint" - a Nyx-class mothership - at the head of the Gallente fleet. He never got the opportunity, however, as he was murdered in his own home by The Broker, who assumed Noir's cloned form."
If that is public knowledge, doesn't it sort of throw a King Kong sized monkey wrench into one of the reasons for the recent flare in Gallente/Caldari hostilities?
Of course maybe this is just news to me, in which case I'll scurry on back under my blanket of perceived neutrality.
I don't think it really matters. Caldari and Gallenteans will always have an excuse to hate each other, its an animosity that goes far beyond "oh, nevermind, wasn't really their fault."
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I get it, CCP owns their IP and they can do with it what they want.
My complaint is that more than a few of the locked entries are worthless.
TLXX-01 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/TLXX-01) - I have commented in discussion and recommended the page be made a redirect to Sellyin. No response one way or another.
Republic Fleet (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Republic_Fleet) - representative of most NPC corporate pages. They do not even show the corporation's logo.
Go to the Evelopedia start page and find player fiction via clicks, let me know what path you take to get there. Not a search "player fiction," but by clicking on links from the home page.
If Evelopedia is meant to be the go to place for players to get information about the game(s) world, CCP is taking on a huge task by barring players from assisting in the actual editing of pages and relegating us to data collection and consolidation on discussion pages. Even then, when a player does take the time to point out simple, straight-forward, improvement (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Tibus_Heth) to a page, he is informed the page will not be updated until CCP gets a hold of a copy of their own book.
I am frustrated by this situation. But I get it, it is CCP's own IP and they can protect it however they want. :bash:
Wikis are a perpetual work in progress; it will never be "finished". The new format was released because it was considered ready for public use. There is, however, a very fine line between players editing pages live and using that freedom to change pages for their own benefit.
...Or for the lulz. Do I really need to suggest what the Goons might do if the wiki was fully open? The Discussion sections are there for a reason.
As to the location of the Player-created Fiction portal, they seem to have altered the pathway from the old version, where it was linked at the bottom of the Fiction Portal page. The URL still works (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:Player_Created_Fiction).
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Wikis are a perpetual work in progress; it will never be "finished". The new format was released because it was considered ready for public use. There is, however, a very fine line between players editing pages live and using that freedom to change pages for their own benefit.
...Or for the lulz. Do I really need to suggest what the Goons might do if the wiki was fully open? The Discussion sections are there for a reason.
As to the location of the Player-created Fiction portal, they seem to have altered the pathway from the old version, where it was linked at the bottom of the Fiction Portal page. The URL still works (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Category:Player_Created_Fiction).
The Goons have had years to attack evelopedia for the lulz, but they have not done so to my knowledge.
The pages that are under the most threat of being edited to the benefit of one group of players over another are the very kind of pages that CCP cannot build/contribute without dedicating staff to following the actions of player entities extensively. The Band of Brothers (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Band_of_Brothers_(Player_alliance)) entry is a great example of this and was hit by the Goons. Should CCP lock it? Does it make sense for them to lock it and bar it from further updates?
So, unless you know the Player Created Fiction section exist, you have nothing to indicate it does.
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The pages that are under the most threat of being edited to the benefit of one group of players over another are the very kind of pages that CCP cannot build/contribute without dedicating staff to following the actions of player entities extensively. The Band of Brothers (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Band_of_Brothers_(Player_alliance)) entry is a great example of this and was hit by the Goons. Should CCP lock it? Does it make sense for them to lock it and bar it from further updates?
So, unless you know the Player Created Fiction section exist, you have nothing to indicate it does.
I tend to disagree, considering how the rise of facwar has generated a lot of people who might take amusement in editing another faction's wiki entry.
Believe me, I'm a little put out at the navigation to the Player-Created stuff disappearing, as well. It was there just a couple weeks ago.
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It didn't take long for people to start using the new evelopedia as IC knowledge to tell people they're doing it wrong.
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Like Dex said, CCP needs to go through and mark specific pages as IC or OOC knowledge.
But good luck with them having the time to do it before the damage done is too great. :P
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If Evelopedia is meant to be the go to place for players to get information about the game(s) world, CCP is taking on a huge task by barring players from assisting in the actual editing of pages and relegating us to data collection and consolidation on discussion pages. Even then, when a player does take the time to point out simple, straight-forward, improvement (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Tibus_Heth) to a page, he is informed the page will not be updated until CCP gets a hold of a copy of their own book.
You're informed that by a volunteer (hence the ISD in his tag), which is different than CCP. His contributor page says he is a member of Mercury. What he tells you may not be the official party line of CCP. But since Abraxas is on vacation until after the new year, he's probably doing something else than work. I assume they are going to eventually update Heth's article, and Jacus Roden's, and Hilen Tukoss, and Suoro Foiritan, and Uriam Kador, and so on and so forth, until they're all at the relative quality of Jamyl Sarum's.
Like Dex said, CCP needs to go through and mark specific pages as IC or OOC knowledge.
But good luck with them having the time to do it before the damage done is too great.
I don't see how this is any different than it was before. People used information from chrons as IC information all the time. I don't see how info being on the Wiki makes it any more IC than it was before. It's just in a different location. The articles appear to be written at least somewhat ICly, but there is also quite a bit of obvious OOC information in them.
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If Evelopedia is meant to be the go to place for players to get information about the game(s) world, CCP is taking on a huge task by barring players from assisting in the actual editing of pages and relegating us to data collection and consolidation on discussion pages. Even then, when a player does take the time to point out simple, straight-forward, improvement (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Tibus_Heth) to a page, he is informed the page will not be updated until CCP gets a hold of a copy of their own book.
You're informed that by a volunteer (hence the ISD in his tag), which is different than CCP. His contributor page says he is a member of Mercury. What he tells you may not be the official party line of CCP. But since Abraxas is on vacation until after the new year, he's probably doing something else than work. I assume they are going to eventually update Heth's article, and Jacus Roden's, and Hilen Tukoss, and Suoro Foiritan, and Uriam Kador, and so on and so forth, until they're all at the relative quality of Jamyl Sarum's.
You mean like it was on 1 May 2011?
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Do you mean that Tibus Heth's article as it stood on May 1st was anywhere near an acceptable article?
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Well, I was given a chatlog, where there's someone talking, and they say something that would be reasonable, and someone else tells them they're doing it wrong.
the first person was talking about some amarr scriptures and how they show one thing, about righteousness of people, and the person concerned is a blood raider. They're quite obviously fishing for people to rp with, to interact in space and stuff.
The second person has no intention of interacting in space with them, and just goes "no youre wrong. wrong wrong wrong" and that "the historical record shows that X, Y, Z happened", which shut down the conversation.
So. vOv
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If the actual historical record does show it, then that's all there is to it. It depends on context, of course.
If someone says something like "No, the EVE Gate collapsed in XXX year, it says so on this timeline!" then yeah, that's kinda taking information that should probably be OOC and using it IC. But if it's something like "No, Damius III died in 22626 AD!" then that's just IC info which has been firmly established now.
This is, of course, no different than things were before. There's always been people who went "No, this!" and pointed to a chronicle which contained information they wouldn't have known about ICly. There's just more information now, much of it knowable IC and some not. It would be very nice if CCP separated them out somehow, but I don't know if there's an elegant way to do it.
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E > I read some stuff the other day about you know? the Udorians?
E > They were like, unrighteous and stuff, being all evil and oppressing people until the true amarr showed them the Word and stuff and then they became believers, was pretty interesting
A > Except that's not what happened
E > are you an Udorian ?
A > No.
E > k then
E > are you one of those false believer dudes? the theology council dudes ?
A > The historical record actually shows that the Udorians were a far more progressive and liberal society than the Amarrians.
E > Nah, that can't be right, otherwise that'd be like, in the books and stuff
A > The books the Theology Council approve?
E > No
A > People were actually leaving Amarr Island to live in the Udorian Empire because it was less oppressive and authoritarian.
A > The Amarr didn't like that.
E > the scriptures and stuff say things about Udorians becoming righteous
E > Just like you know, it's Written that all are Welcome and can like, become Chosens
A > The Scriptures have as much relation to actual history as a slaver does to an asteroid.
E > Nah dude
Information about Udorian society at a time 350 years before the Amarr conquered them, 1000 years before the Empire developed spaceflight, and 2000+ years before the current day.
Information that would only be found on objects from the capital world of the society that is probably the most impenetrable to outsiders.
History is written by the victors, etc.
There isn't any reasonable way that that would be known IC to anyone who is not an Amarrian academic.
But no, it's used by players to tell someone they're doing it wrong and stifle their RP.
Every capsuleer's an expert on every society, yaaaay.
Isn't That Fun.
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Do you mean that Tibus Heth's article as it stood on May 1st was anywhere near an acceptable article?
Yes, I think it had a lot of acceptable & useful content.
Instead of pruning what had been added without any reference material out there, CCP/Mercury decided to effectively nuke it back to the original plus a few edits.
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The article on May 1st appears to be the exact same as the current article, with an additional long block of text from the Empyrean Age. That's not really a good article at all. It's the exact type of bad article that needs to be replaced.
Is the current one any better? No it isn't. It's pretty much terrible too. Hopefully it'll eventually be rewritten to be good.
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Like Dex said, CCP needs to go through and mark specific pages as IC or OOC knowledge.
But good luck with them having the time to do it before the damage done is too great.
I don't see how this is any different than it was before. People used information from chrons as IC information all the time. I don't see how info being on the Wiki makes it any more IC than it was before. It's just in a different location. The articles appear to be written at least somewhat ICly, but there is also quite a bit of obvious OOC information in them.
To be honest, I'd prefer CCP take the initiative for once on something like this, and show us they care about their RP community and its collective sanity and facepalming quota, by rearranging the articles (or just adding sections to the end) to denote "what we actually know" to separate it out from everything else.
It would make it easier to point people in the right direction in a way that is less likely to open up derpy arguments, at least.
PS: FFFFFFFFUU--- :P
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To be honest, I'd prefer CCP take the initiative for once on something like this, and show us they care about their RP community and its collective sanity and facepalming quota, by rearranging the articles (or just adding sections to the end) to denote "what we actually know" to separate it out from everything else.
I don't agree with this suggestion. First, it would create a lot of work for the already limited resources CCP has to go back through the existing portal. I'd rather CCP and Mercury continue to work on producing new content.
I think most RPers, as intelligent and reasonable people, will make responsible judgment calls on what information is IC and which is OOC. The onus should be on us rather than to have CCP hold our hands for us.
People who cannot do this will still use the OOC information any way they wish whether it has an OOC tag on it or not. While making annoyances of themselves like the person in the conversation Louella quoted, they'll probably quickly find themselves ostracized from the community.
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Sure. But there are some stupidly stubborn people who just won't budge unless it's in writing - like the whole deal about Amarrians and taking slaves from outside of the Empire.
It's not a pleasant situation in general, really, but I guess if you don't read IGS much, or hang out in places like the Summit, you don't run into it as much. :p
For articles like the ones about Jamyl and Heth, I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for such a thing. Nor would it be particularly unreasonable to suggest that some of the history pages have a note indicating that a lot of the older parts of the timeline are only there for reference and wouldn't be available to modern scholars. It wouldn't actually be as big a job as it sounds - many of the lore articles aren't mixtures of "OMG SEKRIT WE CANNOT KNOW" and "lol everybody knows that". Just ones involving specific plots of background chronicles, or some portions of the EVE novels.
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Sure. But there are some stupidly stubborn people who just won't budge unless it's in writing - like the whole deal about Amarrians and taking slaves from outside of the Empire.
What's the issue there? I'm not hanging out on the places there it's apparently discussed, but my understanding is that we do have in writing both that it's illegal and that it happens (sometimes using Caldari proxies, sometimes not).
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People insisting that it's legal when it's clearly not. :P
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People insisting that it's legal when it's clearly not. :P
So in this case, it's people just ignoring what's written (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Cessation_of_Slave_Taking), not utilizing OOC knowledge IC.
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With Jamyl, it is mind-bogglingly obvious she's a clone. She committed ritual suicide, and then came back several years later. Call it what you like, you don't come back from the dead like that without a clone. Some people seem to confuse toeing the party line and regurgitating the "OMG IT'S A MIRACLE SO IGNORE THE GODFLESH DOCTRINE" noise the TC has forcefed them with an inability to know (provably) that Jamyl is a clone. Anyone (or any character) who understands how the cloning process works would easily be able to see that Jamyl is a clone. Someone made a comment somewhere (Lallara or Silas, on this forum I think?) that anyone who supports Jamyl's reign has no real grounds to call themselves a "conservative" Amarrian. They're not wrong. :p
So.... religious Amarrians who believe in miracles, even though there is a possible scientific explanation, are 'doing it wrong'?
:(
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With Jamyl, it is mind-bogglingly obvious she's a clone. She committed ritual suicide, and then came back several years later. Call it what you like, you don't come back from the dead like that without a clone. Some people seem to confuse toeing the party line and regurgitating the "OMG IT'S A MIRACLE SO IGNORE THE GODFLESH DOCTRINE" noise the TC has forcefed them with an inability to know (provably) that Jamyl is a clone. Anyone (or any character) who understands how the cloning process works would easily be able to see that Jamyl is a clone. Someone made a comment somewhere (Lallara or Silas, on this forum I think?) that anyone who supports Jamyl's reign has no real grounds to call themselves a "conservative" Amarrian. They're not wrong. :p
So.... religious Amarrians who believe in miracles, even though there is a possible scientific explanation, are 'doing it wrong'?
:(
No, but they have no right or justification to call themselves conservative. Yonis and his supporters, on the other hand, do. Buncha liberals up in this joint. D:
edit: to clarify, toeing the party line and regurgitating the TC's nonsense isn't "doing it wrong" - but going "omg we can't know that she's a clone" is.
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edit: to clarify, toeing the party line and regurgitating the TC's nonsense isn't "doing it wrong" - but going "omg we can't know that she's a clone" is.
The "omg we can't know she's a clone" is in actual saying "your doing it wrong" to those who make the argument that she is a clone.
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They're not really the same thing, in terms of RP, though.
With Jamyl, it is mind-bogglingly obvious she's a clone. She committed ritual suicide, and then came back several years later. Call it what you like, you don't come back from the dead like that without a clone. Some people seem to confuse toeing the party line and regurgitating the "OMG IT'S A MIRACLE SO IGNORE THE GODFLESH DOCTRINE" noise the TC has forcefed them with an inability to know (provably) that Jamyl is a clone. Anyone (or any character) who understands how the cloning process works would easily be able to see that Jamyl is a clone. Someone made a comment somewhere (Lallara or Silas, on this forum I think?) that anyone who supports Jamyl's reign has no real grounds to call themselves a "conservative" Amarrian. They're not wrong. :p
I think in this matter, acknowledging her reign as empress was a matter of political expediency for the other heirs, and appropriately made. At this period of time Jamyl had just repelled a Minmatar invasion fleet and saved their people from being slaughtered, not their current rulers who were officially 'caught with their pants down'. For a society of faithful, it's not difficult to see how a 'formerly dead' heir suddenly returning from death to save them with a super-weapon could be seen as a 'miracle'. With that kind of introduction, I think it would be incredibly difficult to question her integrity as a ruler without suffering serious political backlash. I'm sure there are elements of society, especially the higher echelons who may not agree with her politics or had an opportunity to move up who would pose these sorts of questions privately, but I find it highly unlikely, especially given how vigorous the secret services are about rooting out heretical (or seditious) behavior, that such attention would be brought to public discourse.
But that doesn't exactly apply to Capsuleers, who enjoy a special status in society. They could discuss this (and make everyone in the room uncomfortable if they don't agree) without serious repercussion, because the Empire still needs Capsuleers to protect/wield for their uses, so would most likely not invite them to any important functions to avoid such uncomfortable situations. That is, unless everyone in the room sees eye-to-eye...
On the other hand, with Noir you have a celebrated Admiral who was known for his peace efforts, suddenly pulling an about-face and committing one of the greatest atrocities of the "modern" era (in terms of EVE, anyway) without any warning at all. Sure, it's perfectly plausible that it was "someone else" and not Noir himself, but nobody can cast reasonable doubt on it having been Noir himself. All anyone can prove is that someone wearing Noir's body was flying that Nyx, and that whoever it was turned and did something nobody would have ever expected of Noir at the worst possible time. But with no actual evidence beyond completely unexpected behavior, there's not enough to put someone other than Admiral Noir himself inside the Admiral Noir suit and make the "it was an impostor!" claims dissimilar to the "9/11 was an inside job!" or "there was no moon landing!" claims some people make in the real world.
I think in this situation it was extremely difficult for Gallenteans to believe that a man who was dedicated to peace could possibly commit such an atrocious act, and I think as a general rule the Gallenteans don't ever perceive themselves as the aggressors. Of course, this plays right into the Corporate-sponsored stereotype propaganda pumped into the populace by the State, so seeing a traitorous, back-stabbing Gallente showing his true colors finally was a bit of a 'nail in the coffin' for skeptics on the opposite side. I don't think it would be a terrible stretch of the imagination for Gallenteans and even the Federation government to investigate the incident to find 'the truth' given Noir's past, whereas the Caldari would see it as an open-and-shut case.
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So.... religious Amarrians who believe in miracles, even though there is a possible scientific explanation, are 'doing it wrong'?
:(
No, but they have no right or justification to call themselves conservative. Yonis and his supporters, on the other hand, do. Buncha liberals up in this joint. D:
edit: to clarify, toeing the party line and regurgitating the TC's nonsense isn't "doing it wrong" - but going "omg we can't know that she's a clone" is.
I actually disagree with this. There can be conservative Amarr who believe that the TC's nonsense isn't nonsense at all. They acknowledge, for instance, that there is such a thing as cloning and that a cynical nonbeliever might believe that Jamyl cloned herself. But miracles exist in the Scriptures. Amash-Akura lived for 200 years back before clones and life extension were possible. Molok the Deceiver conjured floods and plagues against the people before climate control existed. Jamyl didn't simply pop up the day after she committed suicide and started causing trouble. No, she appeared as the Empire was under assault and, using unexplained powers (remember, that it was a Terran superweapon she used isn't known about outside of a small number of people. For all most people know, Jamyl showed up in an unexceptional Abaddon with an escort of 7 ships and destroyed a large capital fleet including Titan) turned back a powerful enemy where no one else could. She also acts a changed woman to how she was before she died. She makes no specific claims about the nature of her return, but the leaders of your religion proclaim her return a miracle.
Consider what would happen in similar circumstances today. People witness a person get shot in the chest and fall off a high cliff into turbulent, shark-infested waters below. A body is never recovered and five years pass without anyone seeing the person. Then suddenly, a nuclear missile is heading right for New York City, and this guy suddenly flies out of nowhere and disarms the nuke in mid-air. If the Pope claimed that the guy was a miracle sent by God, a lot of people would rightly say "Well, we knew he was a good swimmer, and he might have knew a guy was going to shoot at him, so he might have been wearing a bulletproof vest, plus he worked for a top secret government program, so he might have been trained to disarm a nuke. We don't know how he flew, but there might be some rational explanation." But a lot of other people saying, "There's a lot of mights there. The chances of that many mights coming true seems like it'd take a miracle in the first place."
Same thing with Jamyl. "Sure, we saw her die. But we know she was a capsuleer, so she might have cloned. And she might have just been hiding until something like the Minmatar attacking would happen so she could save everyone. We don't know how she destroyed them with such a small fleet, but there might be a rational explanation."
Think about what crazy things people believe in today that have rational explanations or have even been scientifically disproven. UFOs. Bigfoot. Nostradamus. Vaccines causing autism. Pitcher wins. The Mayan calendar. The Earth being 6000 years old. Twilight being good.
Does it mean that people who believe Jamyl's return was miraculous are deluding themselves? Yes, of course. They're willfully ignoring the evidence because it does not match up with what they want to believe. This doesn't make them automatically liberal, or even stupid. It makes them normal people.
The liberal ones are the Amarr who believe she was cloned or faked her death, but don't care.
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People insisting that it's legal when it's clearly not. :P
So in this case, it's people just ignoring what's written (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Cessation_of_Slave_Taking), not utilizing OOC knowledge IC.
Now it is. I think what Morwen is saying is that prior to this, where this fact was merely stated in a couple of obscure mission texts and not explicitly on the wiki, people would dismiss it. Therefore, the completionist manner the wiki is written is a good thing, as it allows explicit facts to be pointed to if people are hanging on accepting them to excuse their RP position.
Personally?
I really wish CCP would add a "warning: This article/section-of-an-article is written from an Out-Of-Character point of view and is not suitable for in-character quotation" or something along those lines, or even split articles into "fiction portal" and "universe information portal" sub-portals to clarify what we as players and what we as characters can draw from.
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So.... religious Amarrians who believe in miracles, even though there is a possible scientific explanation, are 'doing it wrong'?
:(
No, but they have no right or justification to call themselves conservative. Yonis and his supporters, on the other hand, do. Buncha liberals up in this joint. D:
edit: to clarify, toeing the party line and regurgitating the TC's nonsense isn't "doing it wrong" - but going "omg we can't know that she's a clone" is.
I actually disagree with this. There can be conservative Amarr who believe that the TC's nonsense isn't nonsense at all. They acknowledge, for instance, that there is such a thing as cloning and that a cynical nonbeliever might believe that Jamyl cloned herself. But miracles exist in the Scriptures. Amash-Akura lived for 200 years back before clones and life extension were possible. Molok the Deceiver conjured floods and plagues against the people before climate control existed. Jamyl didn't simply pop up the day after she committed suicide and started causing trouble. No, she appeared as the Empire was under assault and, using unexplained powers (remember, that it was a Terran superweapon she used isn't known about outside of a small number of people. For all most people know, Jamyl showed up in an unexceptional Abaddon with an escort of 7 ships and destroyed a large capital fleet including Titan) turned back a powerful enemy where no one else could. She also acts a changed woman to how she was before she died. She makes no specific claims about the nature of her return, but the leaders of your religion proclaim her return a miracle.
Consider what would happen in similar circumstances today. People witness a person get shot in the chest and fall off a high cliff into turbulent, shark-infested waters below. A body is never recovered and five years pass without anyone seeing the person. Then suddenly, a nuclear missile is heading right for New York City, and this guy suddenly flies out of nowhere and disarms the nuke in mid-air. If the Pope claimed that the guy was a miracle sent by God, a lot of people would rightly say "Well, we knew he was a good swimmer, and he might have knew a guy was going to shoot at him, so he might have been wearing a bulletproof vest, plus he worked for a top secret government program, so he might have been trained to disarm a nuke. We don't know how he flew, but there might be some rational explanation." But a lot of other people saying, "There's a lot of mights there. The chances of that many mights coming true seems like it'd take a miracle in the first place."
Same thing with Jamyl. "Sure, we saw her die. But we know she was a capsuleer, so she might have cloned. And she might have just been hiding until something like the Minmatar attacking would happen so she could save everyone. We don't know how she destroyed them with such a small fleet, but there might be a rational explanation."
Think about what crazy things people believe in today that have rational explanations or have even been scientifically disproven. UFOs. Bigfoot. Nostradamus. Vaccines causing autism. Pitcher wins. The Mayan calendar. The Earth being 6000 years old. Twilight being good.
Does it mean that people who believe Jamyl's return was miraculous are deluding themselves? Yes, of course. They're willfully ignoring the evidence because it does not match up with what they want to believe. This doesn't make them automatically liberal, or even stupid. It makes them normal people.
The liberal ones are the Amarr who believe she was cloned or faked her death, but don't care.
Thanks, Yoshita, this is pretty much what I was thinking, glad I'm not the only one :)
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I actually disagree with this. There can be conservative Amarr who believe that the TC's nonsense isn't nonsense at all. [Etc.]
What Yoshito said.
(And thanks for saving me from writing up the Amarrian apologia I was rehearsing in my mind.)
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I really wish CCP would add a "warning: This article/section-of-an-article is written from an Out-Of-Character point of view and is not suitable for in-character quotation" or something along those lines, or even split articles into "fiction portal" and "universe information portal" sub-portals to clarify what we as players and what we as characters can draw from.
+1 please
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I really wish CCP would add a "warning: This article/section-of-an-article is written from an Out-Of-Character point of view and is not suitable for in-character quotation" or something along those lines, or even split articles into "fiction portal" and "universe information portal" sub-portals to clarify what we as players and what we as characters can draw from.
+1 please
For all the people wanting this, make sure CCP knows that you want it. Post it on the Fiction forum or something. I don't know if Abraxas and the other guys behind the portal are reading this page, but he's responded to a few things on the official forums.
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It isn't very conservative to throw out the Godflesh doctrine (along with the dishwater and the kitchen sink) just because someone shows up magically on time when they're needed.
Especially considering the implications of doing so, and the precedent it sets.
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Personally, I don't see why so many people are up in arms about there being no OOC/IC divide on the Wiki. Frankly, I'd consider it an insult to my already small amount of intelligence if everything on there was labelled "hurr durr, this is OOC/IC information".
The fact of the matter is that the Wikipedia is just that... a wiki. An INFORMATION DUMP. It's nothing more. It's ALL VIEWED FROM AN OOC PERSPECTIVE to give us a good OOC knowledge of New Eden's backstory and Eve's setting.
As roleplayers and as the creators of our characters, every one of us should be able to reasonably distinguish what our characters do, and do not know from the information that's displayed on the Eve Wiki. Hell, I've had characters of mine be deliberately wrong about things in the past even though I'm aware of a particular piece of backstory from an OOC perspective, purely because my character wasn't aware of the facts surrounding it.
True, there are people who like to godmode, and who'll link wiki entries in character as a way of saying "hurr durr, ur doin it wrong", but in the end people just need to accept that it's utterly shit roleplay to do that, and there are people who will godmode, and people who will be wankers with ooc information regardless of how the wiki is labelled.
It should all be treat as OOC, because in my opinion one of the greatest hallmarks of an awesome roleplayer is the ability to have a rock solid, black and white divide between out of character and in character information.
There's no use in people getting ass tight over the wiki with regards to IC/OOC separation imo.
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Verone, it sounds like I've got quite a different take on the wiki.
People working for and with CCP have, in general, done an excellent job of dividing IC from OOC. IGS is IC. News items which I'll call "within the world" are IC. The Arek'Jaalan coordinator is IC (sometimes more so than the players). Most other things from CCP are OOC.
If the wiki is an unmarked blend of IC and OOC then it is effectively OOC. As an immersionist roleplayer I can't confidently link to it or refer to it IC. It means there is still a gap in the EVE universe for the IC equivalent or equivalents, complete with in-character debate about the factual basis and choice of wording used for some topics.
I'd like the wiki--or a wiki, or a goodly portion of the wiki that's clearly marked--to be something Matariki could use to learn about the cluster, not just something Matariki's-player could use to learn about the gameworld of EVE.
What we've got now is a very good beginning. I think--although I'm still open to better suggestions--that I'd like it to get its brackets on as part of the next step towards making it somewhere where information can be revealed and spread as what is known changes.
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It isn't very conservative to throw out the Godflesh doctrine (along with the dishwater and the kitchen sink) just because someone shows up magically on time when they're needed.
Especially considering the implications of doing so, and the precedent it sets.
They're not throwing the Godflesh doctrine out. They do not believe it has been violated. They legitimately believe that Jamyl was raised from the dead by the power of God, not through science. Ask them for proof that she wasn't clone and they have none. They ask you for proof she was cloned and you have none. The only evidence is completely circumstantial. She was dead. She was a capsuleer. Now she's not dead. Those are the only facts known.
The simplest thing (to a mind that has not been fully absorbed in an all-encompasing state religion for their entire lives) would be to say "she cloned." But this is a society where belief in God is paramount; falling only slightly below is trust in the church and the Heirs. They say she returned from the dead without violating the doctrine of Sacred Flesh. This changes things immensely. Now it's not just "She was dead. She was a capsuleer. Now she's not dead." You're adding in "everyone I've been taught my entire life to trust is lying to me." When faced with that or "God raised her from the dead" it becomes very easy to see why people would choose to believe "God raised her from the dead."
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Verone, it sounds like I've got quite a different take on the wiki.
People working for and with CCP have, in general, done an excellent job of dividing IC from OOC. IGS is IC. News items which I'll call "within the world" are IC. The Arek'Jaalan coordinator is IC (sometimes more so than the players). Most other things from CCP are OOC.
If the wiki is an unmarked blend of IC and OOC then it is effectively OOC. As an immersionist roleplayer I can't confidently link to it or refer to it IC. It means there is still a gap in the EVE universe for the IC equivalent or equivalents, complete with in-character debate about the factual basis and choice of wording used for some topics.
I'd like the wiki--or a wiki, or a goodly portion of the wiki that's clearly marked--to be something Matariki could use to learn about the cluster, not just something Matariki's-player could use to learn about the gameworld of EVE.
What we've got now is a very good beginning. I think--although I'm still open to better suggestions--that I'd like it to get its brackets on as part of the next step towards making it somewhere where information can be revealed and spread as what is known changes.
It's also quite troublesome for me when I'm talking to new players who don't have a solid grip on the background of the universe yet. If one of them asks me, for instance, how the Empyrean War (i.e., faction warfare) started, I could point them to the article on the Elder Invasion... but then I'd also have to warn them that we don't actually know that Jamyl used a Terran weapon, etc.
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Perhaps we should collectively write a primer? With references to the annual review articles (which I think is mostly IC, would have to check)?
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Verone, it sounds like I've got quite a different take on the wiki.
People working for and with CCP have, in general, done an excellent job of dividing IC from OOC. IGS is IC. News items which I'll call "within the world" are IC. The Arek'Jaalan coordinator is IC (sometimes more so than the players). Most other things from CCP are OOC.
If the wiki is an unmarked blend of IC and OOC then it is effectively OOC. As an immersionist roleplayer I can't confidently link to it or refer to it IC. It means there is still a gap in the EVE universe for the IC equivalent or equivalents, complete with in-character debate about the factual basis and choice of wording used for some topics.
I'd like the wiki--or a wiki, or a goodly portion of the wiki that's clearly marked--to be something Matariki could use to learn about the cluster, not just something Matariki's-player could use to learn about the gameworld of EVE.
What we've got now is a very good beginning. I think--although I'm still open to better suggestions--that I'd like it to get its brackets on as part of the next step towards making it somewhere where information can be revealed and spread as what is known changes.
It's also quite troublesome for me when I'm talking to new players who don't have a solid grip on the background of the universe yet. If one of them asks me, for instance, how the Empyrean War (i.e., faction warfare) started, I could point them to the article on the Elder Invasion... but then I'd also have to warn them that we don't actually know that Jamyl used a Terran weapon, etc.
Mata : I can see where you're coming from, but I still think that people should be able to distinguish between IC and OOC, and be able to decide what their character does and does not know with some kind of mature and responsible form of reasoning, and without the need for the wiki to be labelled as IC/OOC.
Esna (and Mata to an extent) : I'm a firm believer in completely dynamic RP, without the need for pre-scripting anything. I'd see someone asking Ethan about something in character as an opportunity for RP, and would happily sit down and have an IC conversation with them, explaining something from his point of view, without the need to even link a wiki page.
The whole situation is a double edged blade, because sadly as I've said there are always going to be the ballbags who can't separate IC from OOC, or just want their character to be the all seeing eye of d00m.
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I'd like the wiki--or a wiki, or a goodly portion of the wiki that's clearly marked--to be something Matariki could use to learn about the cluster, not just something Matariki's-player could use to learn about the gameworld of EVE.
The trouble with this idea is that the contents of the Eve wiki are all we have. As far as the vast majority of players are concerned, there is no more to the game world than what has already been written and published by CCP.
Think about it: creating an immersive literary world for Eve would be on the scale of Lord of the Rings, if not bigger. LotR took Tolkien years decades to complete, and there was so much backstory he developed that it's still being published in volumes created after his death.
It's not humanly possible for CCP to fill in all the gaps every RPer would dearly love to see filled, right here, right now. We cannot expect a miracle history book to suddenly appear containing the answers to life, the Eve universe, and everything, which we can then link to ICly. It's up to us to create our own lore. There's nothing that says we can't be "right" even when it contradicts something published later by CCP, because the society of an entire galaxy would be so vast and so varied and multilayered that there's literally room for everything.
I like Orange's idea that we could start our own catalogue of information. Something where RPers can contribute our own bits of self-made Eve lore, where things can be discussed, debated, updated and determined by us, the players as "IC" information (as opposed to the wiki's solidly OOC designation) would better reflect the more organic expanses and growth of the virtual societies we like to pretend to be a part of.
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I'd like the wiki--or a wiki, or a goodly portion of the wiki that's clearly marked--to be something Matariki could use to learn about the cluster, not just something Matariki's-player could use to learn about the gameworld of EVE.
The trouble with this idea is that the contents of the Eve wiki are all we have. As far as the vast majority of players are concerned, there is no more to the game world than what has already been written and published by CCP.
Think about it: creating an immersive literary world for Eve would be on the scale of Lord of the Rings, if not bigger. LotR took Tolkien years decades to complete, and there was so much backstory he developed that it's still being published in volumes created after his death.
It's not humanly possible for CCP to fill in all the gaps every RPer would dearly love to see filled, right here, right now. We cannot expect a miracle history book to suddenly appear containing the answers to life, the Eve universe, and everything, which we can then link to ICly. It's up to us to create our own lore. There's nothing that says we can't be "right" even when it contradicts something published later by CCP, because the society of an entire galaxy would be so vast and so varied and multilayered that there's literally room for everything.
I like Orange's idea that we could start our own catalogue of information. Something where RPers can contribute our own bits of self-made Eve lore, where things can be discussed, debated, updated and determined by us, the players as "IC" information (as opposed to the wiki's solidly OOC designation) would better reflect the more organic expanses and growth of the virtual societies we like to pretend to be a part of.
On the other hand you have RPGs that publish a large amount of useable background information in a relatively short time. The example that I like to use is Traveller. The old Library Data books were pretty awesome.
The early Eve chronicles also contained lots of useable information rather than fluff. Such information doesn't have to be produced all in one hit. Indeed, it's probably better when its released gradually because it means that people can RP around the latest stuff rather than all go off in different directions.
There's a whole lot of background information that CCP could produce without too much effort, such as filling in the holes in the timelines of the major factions. I wish that they'd put some thought into doing it.
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For Shae: I'm not asking CCP to write more for us, just that what we have is tagged so that things that aren't publicly known aren't in the public--and potentially otherwise IC--playspace.
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Whoopsie doo, I have noticed players have started to contribute their own stuff under the categories used by the Fiction Portal. In particular the 'Lore' category without the 'Player Created Fiction' tag. I am not certain we are supposed to do that, even use those categories at all.
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If you're referring to The Odamian Renegades (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Odamian_Renegades) and Mourir Spider Drone (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Mourir_Spider_Drone), both are obscure CCP lore that I'm looking to expand a bit. I wasn't sure about the tags, but the material on both those pages is ingame somewhere.
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The whole fuss with the Fiction Portal is that we cannot expand on the prime fiction at all as we cannot edit the official pages. Circumvent that restriction by creating our own pages and link them through the categories seems like something that will get the smack down, I am sorry to say.
Still, feel free to do it and see if ISD takes notice.
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Perhaps we should collectively write a primer? With references to the annual review articles (which I think is mostly IC, would have to check)?
This is a positive response. It's not the same as having a shared, possibly CONCORD-managed, repository of things we could all expect to be aware of, couched in carefully neutral terms and with heated discussion pages. I'd like that (too?).
Just letting you know that I have been thinking about this. :)
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As far as I'm aware ISD, will take suggestions (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Talk:Jamyl_I). If something is out, use the talk page. I've had a fair few responses so far.
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I like how Muck Raker has preempted the matter of Jamyl Orgies™ (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=55440&find=unread) as a ridiculous tabloid story to discredit any further attempts to godmode the Amarr RP bloc as a giant drug-fuelled lesbian joke. So hooray :D
Well done, Muck, well done.
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I like how Muck Raker has preempted the matter of Jamyl Orgies™ (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=55440&find=unread) as a ridiculous tabloid story to discredit any further attempts to godmode the Amarr RP bloc as a giant drug-fuelled lesbian joke. So hooray :D
Well done, Muck, well done.
We talked about this in a convo already, Seri, and many people know that I share Tony's version of Amarrian leadership (emphasis on leadership, I have no doubt that the common folk is very religious). Considering how theocracies all turned out in the past (see my post here (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=629623#post629623)) I think it's not too hard to imagine that the heirs, the empress and others in important positions are a huge bunch of hipocrites. And considering that there are so many historical examples on this matter I really can't understand the hate Tony recieves for portraying the most likely realities in the Empire.
(editted because of typo)
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Just because it's played out like that in the past doesn't necessarily mean it will do so in the future.
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Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?
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Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?
Not particularly. I can understand there being a degree of corruption and debauchery within Amarrian leadership, heck, you get that everywhere. Every existing religious institution probably has degrees of it.
No, what bugs me is it portrays pretty much everyone up top like that. It's not isolated, or in any way subtle, it's full-on, tits out 'let's be corrupt guize, it'll be fun' with no attempts to justify it in the context of this huge and ancient religion.
Edit: Shouldn't this discussion really be on the Templar One Thread?
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Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?
"It always happens" is neither an original, nor an interesting means by which to write fiction.
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Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?
"It always happens" is neither an original, nor an interesting means by which to write fiction.
It's a realistical approach though. And afair is "keeping it real" an important part of RP, everthing else is bordering on godmodding (pun intended).
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Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?
"It always happens" is neither an original, nor an interesting means by which to write fiction.
It's a realistical approach though. And afair is "keeping it real" an important part of RP, everthing else is bordering on godmodding (pun intended).
Realistic, yes, insofar as it happened in the past in real world history.
Reducing nations to their lowest common denominator, however, is not conducive to a healthy fiction base. Tony seems to subscribe to the tactic of putting the nations in their respective "boxes" and writing off of that narrative. It takes away the subtlety and value in the same way CCP ruined the "grey-area" behavior of Nation.
The Borgia operated underhandedly because they knew how to keep secrets. The whole game of hoarding power comes down to knowing which secrets to keep and which secrets to let everyone know.
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Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?
"It always happens" is neither an original, nor an interesting means by which to write fiction.
It's a realistical approach though. And afair is "keeping it real" an important part of RP, everthing else is bordering on godmodding (pun intended).
Realistic, yes, insofar as it happened in the past in real world history.
Reducing nations to their lowest common denominator, however, is not conducive to a healthy fiction base. Tony seems to subscribe to the tactic of putting the nations in their respective "boxes" and writing off of that narrative. It takes away the subtlety and value in the same way CCP ruined the "grey-area" behavior of Nation.
The Borgia operated underhandedly because they knew how to keep secrets. The whole game of hoarding power comes down to knowing which secrets to keep and which secrets to let everyone know.
Don't forget though that not all readers are playing EvE. Therefor you have to exaggerate some things to make people who don't play understand the flaws of the 4 empires.
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Exaggerating one group to be nothing but reprehensible and thoroughly flawed whilst at the same time ignoring or denying the existence of certain flaws in others tends to be fairly dull writing and poor form to boot, however.
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Commiting mass murder in order to clean the Matari government of Amarrian collaborateurs (Elders), hijacking a Nyx to ram it in a station in order to silence the opposition so you can wage war against the Gallente (Heth) or being a bribable Grand Admiral of the Federal Navy (Eturrer) aren't anything I would consider virtues ;)
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Frankly, those are peanuts to a whole society of hypocrites and sexual deviants. It is like Tony is trying to excuse the Amarr from being religious fanatics by going "look, they do know themselves it is a big lie and they do sex too, extravagant even."
Maybe he simply do not like religion or religious people. :|
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Frankly, those are peanuts to a whole society of hypocrites and sexual deviants. It is like Tony is trying to excuse the Amarr from being religious fanatics by going "look, they do know themselves it is a big lie and they do sex too, extravagant even."
Maybe he simply do not like religion or religious people. :|
YMMV on the more lethal ones I mentioned, but I do see your point. I just wanted to tell that I can't understand all the hate Tony recieves for portraying the Amarr in the most likely way and that by no way he describes the other three as flawless or do-gooders.
(editted because of typo)
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Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?
"It always happens" is neither an original, nor an interesting means by which to write fiction.
It's a realistical approach though. And afair is "keeping it real" an important part of RP, everthing else is bordering on godmodding (pun intended).
Realistic, yes, insofar as it happened in the past in real world history.
Reducing nations to their lowest common denominator, however, is not conducive to a healthy fiction base. Tony seems to subscribe to the tactic of putting the nations in their respective "boxes" and writing off of that narrative. It takes away the subtlety and value in the same way CCP ruined the "grey-area" behavior of Nation.
The Borgia operated underhandedly because they knew how to keep secrets. The whole game of hoarding power comes down to knowing which secrets to keep and which secrets to let everyone know.
Don't forget though that not all readers are playing EvE. Therefor you have to exaggerate some things to make people who don't play understand the flaws of the 4 empires.
Yeah, this is something I brought up in another forum section, Tony isn't writing for just EVE players... which, imo, kind of ruins the books from the start.
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Maybe, but the human nature and the fact that debauchery and decadence repeated themselves inside theocracies time and time again makes it more likely then an actually working one, doesn't it?
"It always happens" is neither an original, nor an interesting means by which to write fiction.
It's a realistical approach though. And afair is "keeping it real" an important part of RP, everthing else is bordering on godmodding (pun intended).
Here's the thing; having read the extract about the orgy.
Being a decadent noble is one thing, and believable. Flaunting your decadence in front of a faithful (in both senses of the word) retainer and thus undermining his loyalty to you is extremely dumb. The families that get to be imperial heirs & the like should be shown as having some political savvy.
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From Ruthless...
"Religion is a terminal illness whose symptoms include the loss of common sense, humility, rational thinking, and in your case, moral decency."
- Gallente Ambassador Jacques Allirou, Caille Summit, 23220
Right, considering the multireligious Federation likely has more religious believers (Intaki, Minmatar etc.) than non-religious people. From that, he is obviously shoehorning his own anti-religious beliefs into his work.
The Gallente Admiral Elijah Freeman is, also, a RL friend of TonyG who is working on DUST. Go figure.
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From Ruthless...
"Religion is a terminal illness whose symptoms include the loss of common sense, humility, rational thinking, and in your case, moral decency."
- Gallente Ambassador Jacques Allirou, Caille Summit, 23220
Right, considering the multireligious Federation likely has more religious believers (Intaki, Minmatar etc.) than non-religious people. From that, he is obviously shoehorning his own anti-religious beliefs into his work.
The Gallente Admiral Elijah Freeman is, also, a RL friend of TonyG who is working on DUST. Go figure.
I'm just wondering offhand where you're coming from and where you're citing the Federation being "multi-religious" and in what context you mean it.
I've not seen it mentioned in PF at all.
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Despite all this Foiritan is very much aware that being the leader of a democratic state, especially one as volatile as the Federation with all its ethnic, religious and economic differences, is a position built on quicksand. (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=sep01-02)
Also, probably the opening of this article (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Gallente_%28NPCs%29).
The Federation is emphasized for its ultra-diversity. If that includes ethnicity and culture, it's going to include religion too. Amarr immigrants and their religion, Ni-Kunni immigrants and theirs (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ni-Kunni#Outside_the_Empire), Caldari spiritualists, the Minmatar and each of their four (possibly seven now) tribal religions, the Intaki religion, and whatever religion(s) the ethnic Gallente have, as well as Jin-Mei and Mannar. Melting pot ideas on death as well (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Death#Gallente), and implying there's a whole bunch of hybrid and fusion religions/beliefs.
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And wasn't there even a Sani-Sabik-popstar?
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I noticed yesterday that some Gallente even worship Lutins (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Lutins).
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It seems odd to me that theocracies are being singled out as corrupt debauched deviant whatnots.
Such corruption is in all positions of power.
Let's take for example the most prosperous and long lived Republic of all, Rome.
The whole concept of orgy originates from there.
The renaissance examples about theocracies really do not fly that well, mainly because of the time, renaissance, at the time religion was pretty much seen as nothing else than bullshit, the old values from the Roman Empire and Greece were worshiped, hence orgies and whatnot.
What was done by the Borgias was nothing compared to what the nobility was doing everywhere during that time, because it was commonplace.
Everyone has come across the stories of French courts, there was nutty kings in England killing their wives, general incest among the nobility and all those jolly good things that have been seen as the bad side of monarchies.
Papal states were built on the foundation of the old Roman Empire, thus making its roots rotten and corrupt.
So were the monarchies of Europe.
In human history there is very few examples of pure theocracies (societies built from scratch into theocracies) hence I would say that there are no real examples on its inherent corruption.
Only real life examples would be the Jews, and how their society has been run through the ages (of course there are differences between the Amarr and the Jews) and of course the Islamic States that are following Sharia. You could add the Vatican into the list, but basically it is just a 'special' State in Italy, not a country.
Of course I am rambling here.
At this time and age that we are living in, it is okay to hate religion, it is okay to laugh at people that are dumber than you and it is all right to be an utter twat on the internet.
I think this combination shows in the way the Amarrian Empire has been portrayed by the PF after the original background information of EVE was given to the players in the shape of chronicles.
But I digress, I'll go get something to eat.
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Like it's been said before, it's not realistic except in the fact that it is a common conception.
Tony is writing for the lowest-common-denominator reader.
"Not all corrupt governments are theocracies, but all theocracies are corrupt governments."
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Like it's been said before, it's not realistic except in the fact that it is a common conception.
Tony is writing for the lowest-common-denominator reader.
"Not all corrupt governments are theocracies, but all theocracies are corrupt governments."
Im not sure its unrealistic. But its certainly cliched.
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Like it's been said before, it's not realistic except in the fact that it is a common conception.
Tony is writing for the lowest-common-denominator reader.
"Not all corrupt governments are theocracies, but all theocracies are corrupt governments."
Im not sure its unrealistic. But its certainly cliched.
I don't know what the word I'm looking for to describe it...
It's stereotypical to an extent that insults the readers and RPers alike.
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What, I can't call the general populace of the EVE-O forums names anymore?
I don't know what the word I'm looking for to describe it...
It's stereotypical to an extent that insults the readers and RPers alike.
My ranting aside, I think the phrase you're looking for is 'dumbed down'
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I only know what I've been told, but at first blush, it seems like less shoe-horning in of an anti-religion message, and more shoe-horning in a stupid, marketing-said-it-was-required girl-on-girl action scene without regard for the consequences. Either way, somewhat saddened, though I'll reserve judgment until I've read the whole thing.
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Abraxas has added a good way to keep track on what updates is happening to the Fiction Portal here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Fiction_Portal_credits).
While I like the article on the Jovian disease for example, it also lessens my motivation for participating in the A'J Project as apparently the Fiction Portal team does not appear to credit players for any ideas of theirs that might get picked up upon and added to the Portal (also ideas presented outside of A'J). I can partly understand the reason for avoiding this (players characters have rarely made it into EVE canon), but it does seems rather wasteful to try and put together little pieces of in game lore bits into some meaningful theory when instead I could sign up for ISD Mercury, make stuff up, get Abaraxas to approve it and bam it would be Prime Fiction. :|
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Abraxas has added a good way to keep track on what updates is happening to the Fiction Portal here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Fiction_Portal_credits).
Nice. Really digging the new articles on Amash-Akura and Fed religions (mostly the section on modern/current stuff). Lot of material and some interesting tidbits in both of those. Jovian disease and HoloVision articles are also informative.
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The article on Body Mining (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Body_mining) raises some interesting questions on the demand and worth of biomass. According to the article, it's economically feasible to go out into space, retrieve corpses, and sell the biomass for profit. Simply visiting an old battlefield and sifting through the wreckage is in itself dangerous business, not just for raiders and pirates but the basic hazards of sifting space debris and spent munitions.
The article notes that "biomass of any quality" has a value, and can be sold for some amount of profit. Having said that, it's hard to imagine an economy where going out and salvaging corpses is more practical than growing moss in a tube, grinding it up, and selling the resultant 'biomass.' Perhaps biomass is a technical term, referring to a specific composition of nutrients and chemicals associated with recycled human bodies? The wiki item entry on Biomass suggests otherwise (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Biomass).
Or perhaps I'm still thinking with an Earth paradigm, where growing organic matter is far more trivial a task than space travel. Perhaps in interstellar New Eden, flying a starship out and picking up dead people is more economical than running a greenhouse.
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There's stuff the human body generates that can't really be reproduced anywhere else by nature. Unique neurochemicals, etc. I imagine getting it from the source would be the only feasible option.
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The article on Body Mining (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Body_mining) raises some interesting questions on the demand and worth of biomass. According to the article, it's economically feasible to go out into space, retrieve corpses, and sell the biomass for profit. Simply visiting an old battlefield and sifting through the wreckage is in itself dangerous business, not just for raiders and pirates but the basic hazards of sifting space debris and spent munitions.
The article notes that "biomass of any quality" has a value, and can be sold for some amount of profit. Having said that, it's hard to imagine an economy where going out and salvaging corpses is more practical than growing moss in a tube, grinding it up, and selling the resultant 'biomass.' Perhaps biomass is a technical term, referring to a specific composition of nutrients and chemicals associated with recycled human bodies? The wiki item entry on Biomass suggests otherwise (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Biomass).
Or perhaps I'm still thinking with an Earth paradigm, where growing organic matter is far more trivial a task than space travel. Perhaps in interstellar New Eden, flying a starship out and picking up dead people is more economical than running a greenhouse.
This is a subject I've given some thought to, with varying results.
My speculation points that recovering human biomass is much faster than growing human biomass, because you have to provide a wide variety of resources to grow healthy human biomass. Acceleration methods may lower the quality or compromise vat-grown human biomass, making the turn over rate for usable 'adult' biomass rather difficult. Without a clear understanding of how the biomass is reused, some things like the brain might also impede vat growing. If you grow the body but the brain is little more than neurological soup, it might be of substantially lower quality. Or perfect for cloning.
I personally think it's rather out of sync with itself. Even at our current level of modern understanding, vat growing enormous quantities of human biomass seems to be extremely simple.
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The article on Body Mining (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Body_mining) raises some interesting questions on the demand and worth of biomass. According to the article, it's economically feasible to go out into space, retrieve corpses, and sell the biomass for profit. Simply visiting an old battlefield and sifting through the wreckage is in itself dangerous business, not just for raiders and pirates but the basic hazards of sifting space debris and spent munitions.
The article notes that "biomass of any quality" has a value, and can be sold for some amount of profit. Having said that, it's hard to imagine an economy where going out and salvaging corpses is more practical than growing moss in a tube, grinding it up, and selling the resultant 'biomass.' Perhaps biomass is a technical term, referring to a specific composition of nutrients and chemicals associated with recycled human bodies? The wiki item entry on Biomass suggests otherwise (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Biomass).
I've thought about this as well. And the main thing that made sense to me isnt so much the human bio-mass itself. but the human digestible proteins and such that make up the biomass. Humanity in the EVE cluster exists in various alien environs. Its totally conjecture, but it would make sense if much of the alien flora and fauna that makes up a lot of EVE's ecosystems would likely not be palatable to the human body, or at least not optimal. This would make "human grade biomass" a fairly valuable thing, especially in areas where agriculture is difficult or non-existence.
Or perhaps I'm still thinking with an Earth paradigm, where growing organic matter is far more trivial a task than space travel. Perhaps in interstellar New Eden, flying a starship out and picking up dead people is more economical than running a greenhouse.
This is a subject I've given some thought to, with varying results.
My speculation points that recovering human biomass is much faster than growing human biomass, because you have to provide a wide variety of resources to grow healthy human biomass. Acceleration methods may lower the quality or compromise vat-grown human biomass, making the turn over rate for usable 'adult' biomass rather difficult. Without a clear understanding of how the biomass is reused, some things like the brain might also impede vat growing. If you grow the body but the brain is little more than neurological soup, it might be of substantially lower quality. Or perfect for cloning.
I personally think it's rather out of sync with itself. Even at our current level of modern understanding, vat growing enormous quantities of human biomass seems to be extremely simple.
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There's stuff the human body generates that can't really be reproduced anywhere else by nature. Unique neurochemicals, etc. I imagine getting it from the source would be the only feasible option.
I had considered this, which is why I thought 'biomass' might be a technical term. If it specifically refers to the chemicals and nutrients obtained from recycling humans, then there'd be a good reason to treat it is as distinct from general organic matter (and thus more valuable). But the use of the term 'biomass' elsewhere in the game (and in the wiki itself) suggests that it's a catch-all term that applies to both recycled human corpses and processed plankton.
It's possible that there's some kind of conflated or overlapping terminology, but that would be remarkably obtuse. Especially for said 'Body Miners' and biotechnicians who'd quickly adopt a distinct term for the more valuable stuff.
I personally think it's rather out of sync with itself. Even at our current level of modern understanding, vat growing enormous quantities of human biomass seems to be extremely simple.
That seems intuitive. Vat-growing biomass benefits from economics of scale, quality control, scaleability, and predictable yields. In short, all the benefits that puts industrial processes at an advantage over foraging and recycling. If we were dealing with a scarcity, then there'd certainly be major benefits to salvaging, but that's hardly the case here. Human beings in New Eden are a renewable resource.
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I personally think it's rather out of sync with itself. Even at our current level of modern understanding, vat growing enormous quantities of human biomass seems to be extremely simple.
Try synthesizing dopamine, and tell me that again :p
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There are different qualities of biomass.
From the Cloning article:
"Modern methods allow pretty much any kind of biomass to be used. The best clones are constructed from human cadavers, but anything from animal carcasses to organic soups can be used. Using lower quality materials requires more extensive structuring and chemical processes and introduces a greater risk for error in the transfer of the customer's features. "