Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Synthia on 19 Dec 2014, 12:27
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A situation that occurred to a friend a while back. Last year or so.
They were posting in The Summit, as they usually do, when someone made an insulting remark about them.
So, because of timezones and other such concerns, they hired a mercenary corporation against the person that insulted them.
The result was that the target corporation first splintered into different groups, then closed altogether, with the members going their separate ways.
Thing was, the target corporation was a RP project that had yet to really get going, and the splintering may have caused some bad feeling ooc between the players involved.
So, what should have been done in that situation ? Should my friend have simply ignored the insults, in the interests of a healthier RP community ? Or would that have been a bit patronising ? What would you have done ?
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How very vague. Also, a very bit more recent than last year if chat logs are to be believed.
Can't really provide input on such vague information though, can we?
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I chose war.
This is a game about internet spaceships. That pew each other. You Your friend played the game as intended. Fledgling corps rp or otherwise die everyday in New Eden.
I would of just put a few billion bounty on their corp and done the merc myself though.
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If it was a non-RP related event, i wouldn't care .....mercenary or war, just crushing the soul of other players is an area where eve shines.
However, if my enemy is an RP corp...a "smallish" one that is just starting ...then i would quite more lenient, why? because i want those guys to survive and provide more content for me in the future..and together create a strong weaving in eve.
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War.
Don't give a shit about start-ups. If you're not ready to fight, have the good sense to not run your mouth.
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I think I posted several things on that kind of situations, and how OOC interests most of the times directly conflicts with IC interests. It's the whole dilemna of RP in Eve, where the game itself often proves detrimental the health of any community.
Can't be bothered to find them back... :|
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Chose war. Being new doesn't entitle anyone to get away with insults. Besides, the start-up corp could actually make a name for themselves and get a boost if they acquit themselves well in space.
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Laugh it off.
There are things to war over, and whether it's a small or startup corp or not is irrelevant. But warring over petty insults is probably making yourself look worse off by getting bent out of shape over them.
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If it was a non-RP related event, i wouldn't care .....mercenary or war, just crushing the soul of other players is an area where eve shines.
However, if my enemy is an RP corp...a "smallish" one that is just starting ...then i would quite more lenient, why? because i want those guys to survive and provide more content for me in the future..and together create a strong weaving in eve.
This. There was umm.. a war luna had a role in instigating. A rather concious decision was made to hire a rp merc corp and to try to involve other rp corps/rpers for rp reasons/negotiations as opposed to a "standard" eve approach for precisely this reason - both so there'd be rp in the war itself and any interactions as opposed to a bunch of outsiders blowing everyone up. I did take some heat for that in some circles, but I stand by that choice and am happy with the rp content it generated.
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I'd vote war if the damn poll would let me vote!
Slights cannot be taken! Death! Death! Death!
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Laugh it off.
There are things to war over, and whether it's a small or startup corp or not is irrelevant. But warring over petty insults is probably making yourself look worse off by getting bent out of shape over them.
for many rp corps, that don't have sovereignty, or POS, what do they actually have to go to war over, other than perceived insults on the IGS or whatever ?
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Very little. Which is not an issue.
War is in response to actions, not words. If RPers aren't doing actions worth warring over, then why waste your time and isk on them? It gives them more attention than they deserve.
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Very little. Which is not an issue.
War is in response to actions, not words. If RPers aren't doing actions worth warring over, then why waste your time and isk on them? It gives them more attention than they deserve.
Yeah pretty much this.
That said, wars are fun.
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War is in response to actions...
Like hugs. Just sayin'
;-)
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War is in response to actions...
Like hugs. Just sayin'
;-)
*smacks Mitty*
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Very little. Which is not an issue.
War is in response to actions, not words. If RPers aren't doing actions worth warring over, then why waste your time and isk on them? It gives them more attention than they deserve.
The action in this situation is the act of "mouth running."
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Very little. Which is not an issue.
War is in response to actions, not words. If RPers aren't doing actions worth warring over, then why waste your time and isk on them? It gives them more attention than they deserve.
The action in this situation is the act of "mouth running."
If PIE wardecced everyone that ran their mouth about us, we'd be in a lot of wars.
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If PIE wardecced everyone that ran their mouth about us, we'd be in a lot of wars.
The tone of your post suggests that something about this idea should be perceived negatively.
I cannot find the negative aspect.
Is it a bankroll issue?
Also, PIE as an organization is pretty deep into the "Pretend to be good guys" aspect of the Amarr RP scene. So it wouldn't be ICly sensible for them to wardec everyone who runs off at the mouth anyway.
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Yes, I do think a propensity for starting wars over trivial issues does convey a negative image. Shows a lack of dignity and composure, it proves that the petty insults are right.
Not to say that that matters to people. To some it doesn't. But the question of the thread is, "What would you do", so, that's my opinion on it.
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Wardeccing over anything and everything:
(https://i.imgur.com/yAyYZtH.gif)
Takes a bit more to make it worth it, as far as I'm concerned. No reason to lend legitimacy to everyone with an attitude.
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War is in response to actions...
Like hugs. Just sayin'
;-)
*smacks Mitty*
Knowing what this is in reference to... :lol: :cube:
I'm with Samira though, on all of the points she's raised.
And kudos to Luna for doing things the way she did. I got to watch some of the fallout from that.
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This presupposes declared wars can have any effect at all on people who don't want to fight, especially most RP corps.
You lose more isk and fun playtime waiting for target to undock than anything you accomplish otherwise.
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I generally fall into the category of "don't bother making a big deal out of things that don't actually hurt you" category.
I also tend be rather more wary regarding the use of mercenaries, as - with some exceptions, notably Stormcrows - mercenaries tend to be non-RP types who cost a great deal to hire; in this case, it becomes less a case of "developing content" and more "who has the deepest pockets can squash anyone they want without lifting a finger themselves". This is not particularly beneficial for gameplay or roleplay development.
In the end, there is no single answer to this kind of question because there are to many variables to consider - what was the "insult"? Was the person who used it already in RP conflict specifically with the person insulted, or was it out of the blue? Who are the mercs, and what exactly are they being hired to do - fight alone, or assist the insulted in fighting back? Does the person being wardecced have fixed assets or specific operations that can be actively targeted, or will it be just starting a war for the sake of starting a war?
Each situation is different and must be addressed differently.
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Also, I answered like Samira, with the same thoughts behind. But there is also more, there is the question of the character himself/herself. I played a character that would be completely puzzled as to why war deccing over those things. Some other characters would definitely not let the insult be unanswered and would go completely berserk until the insult is washed by blood (<3 Silas, and I still hate good old Aldy for diplo-ing out of that).
Each situation is really unique on its own. Let's say, Synthia, that in your example the startup corp collapsed under the weight of the war. Some could say that maybe it's for the better and that corp was already started on a bad basis if it cannot even stand its first trial of fire. Some could also say that the war was completely out of proportion, especially if the people inside this corp were novices and not grizzled vets. Was the war too harsh on the players behind, costed them basically everything, all the hours they injected in the game, or whatever just made it a terrible experience for the players behind to the point they just got disgusted and quit. Well, you can say what you want now at the top of your grizzled vet experience, but a lot of people would react quite differently with just a few weeks ingame behind them. There is always a threshold, a breaking point, where the player will just stop having fun and will leave. Be it due to griefing, wars, or just boredom, reasons are plenty. And ICly, the goal of a war is to crush the enemy to ashes. But OOCly, it can sometimes be different.
This is a rather complex issue imo.
I faced the exact same thing that you described a few times, and one that comes in mind is when I lead AM alliance into a totally RP/IC war over a gallente corp living in Solitude that were boasting completely IC things about gathering intel on us. Well, we had a lot of new blood with new corps in the alliance and we thought it would be good to revive the alliance roleplay while at the same time bringing all that new blood together, and what better than a war - a RP war ! - for that. We thought a lot before doing it thought, and that totally OOCly, because the corp in question was actually not doing very well and most of their activity had dropped to abysmal levels. So, an alliance of over hundreds members deccing a dying RP corp full of carebears, what ? 10 active members ? Like, 5 vs 1 ? We really feared that we would just crush their corp and cause a lot of bad blood OOCly behind. Well, they deserved it, right ? Probably, but still, the outcome was still not good to have.
Well it turned out that the campaign turned very bad for us after a few first good days, and due to various issues (logistics, all the vets in vacations, etc), the target corp actually found a lot of fun in skirmishing and playing with our noobs, while being total noobs themselves, and they had great fun. I think by doing that war we actually saved their corp, which lasted then for years, grew in numbers, and got involved in a lot of Syndicate/Solitude pvp.
So... It's very hard to tell, what's wrong or what's right to do in such cases. I would just say that if you happen to war dec someone, the best bet can sometimes be to moderate a bit the victory at all costs syndrome (which often involves a lot of OOC tactics to win anyway), and try to actually focus on the fun behind rather than the win. Especially for RP, where focusing on the (good) IC drama and the character development, and thus, the fun, should always take precedence over winning at RP.
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Wardeccing over anything and everything:
(https://i.imgur.com/yAyYZtH.gif)
Sweet baby jesus I choked on my beer trying not to spit it. I'm still coughing between fits of laughter.
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Ignoring them will ultimately get the same results. Something new will become flavor of the month RP or another faction will get CCP's spotlight, so groups will splinter anyway as folks jump on the new bandwagon.
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Would most definitely wardec them. Have done so before over an insult, would do again.
My small RP corp vs their small RP corp might even develop its own fun story, so I see no reason why not to fork out the 50mil and see what happens!
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I'd say wardec. But ideally the dec should come from you, the insulted party.
I figure if someone insults you they are looking to engage. Either in a slanging match or in combat. Either way they are looking to engage with you. Not your proxies.
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I'd say wardec. But ideally the dec should come from you, the insulted party.
I figure if someone insults you they are looking to engage. Either in a slanging match or in combat. Either way they are looking to engage with you. Not your proxies.
That may be what they expect, but it's not what they will always get and for good reason.
It's not practical in every case to go after a smacktalker on the other side of the cluster. People talk shit to I-RED all the time, and while we are fully capable of taking on almost any other roleplaying group toe-to-toe, we're not going to deploy to Great Wildlands because you happen to live there and run your mouth all the time. Even more likely we'll ignore you, but in the off chance you actually put some effort into your aggressive roleplaying and look like you might be fun to mess with, we'll hire mercs.
Sorry, but just because you talk shit doesn't entitle you to us coming down there to find you and wait outside station for two weeks. If anything, it places the onus on you to come where we live and back your fuckin words up.
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PYRE eagerly awaits your wardecs ;)
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PYRE eagerly awaits your wardecs ;)
John decided sexual warfare is the preferred method of punishment, Kala... so bend over and present your docking bay. :eek:
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Was about to say, you see a lot of deccing/mercing smaller corps, but when the hell do you see bigger/better outfits get decced? When are you deccing Pyre for talking shit/scooping up every Sansha in the cluster? When's U'K getting decced for talking shit about the Amarrians? For all the "Yeah, no backtalk bitches" it does seem to be rather selective, isn't it?
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PYRE eagerly awaits your wardecs ;)
John decided sexual warfare is the preferred method of punishment, Kala... so bend over and present your docking bay. :eek:
I'm afraid the leather bondage suit doesn't allow for much bending :lol:
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Was about to say, you see a lot of deccing/mercing smaller corps, but when the hell do you see bigger/better outfits get decced? When are you deccing Pyre for talking shit/scooping up every Sansha in the cluster? When's U'K getting decced for talking shit about the Amarrians? For all the "Yeah, no backtalk bitches" it does seem to be rather selective, isn't it?
Big reason why I feel being overzealous with deccing is a bad idea. Getting into the habit obligates you into doing it even when you are the underdog, or risk taking a hit to credibility that is likely more damaging than the petty insult in question.
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It's not practical in every case to go after a smacktalker on the other side of the cluster. People talk shit to I-RED all the time, and while we are fully capable of taking on almost any other roleplaying group toe-to-toe, we're not going to deploy to Great Wildlands because you happen to live there and run your mouth all the time. Even more likely we'll ignore you, but in the off chance you actually put some effort into your aggressive roleplaying and look like you might be fun to mess with, we'll hire mercs.
I-RED almost never wardecs others directly, and when we do, it's only because John genuinely thinks the other party can provide fun for the whole alliance.
But since people have some questions, I'll answer why we didn't wardec PYRE: We didn't need to.
Back when we lived in Syndicate we were much larger and more "dug in", while PYRE was a much smaller and more agile target and not really something worth declaring war on. I don't mean that insultingly, of course. Just that, we had already set Pyre red (we are NRDS in lowsec), and Pyre had set us neutral (Pyre was NBSI). If we were going to encounter each other, the stage was already set for a fight. We didn't need to drop ISK on a wardec on top of that. It would be a burden on us to go find and fight Pyre on their own turf, so we never bothered to.
On the roleplaying side, we weren't interested in setting ourselves up for even more smacktalk by attacking a seemingly prominent member of the Caldari Militia directly with a very public and very grandiose wardec, which goes back to John's preference of hiring mercs. We told Pyre if they came upon us, we'd shoot them, and that was all we needed to do.
I-RED has never really been one for playing with wardecs much. We're often the subject of them, so it's not as if we don't like them - it's just not our style to declare war most of the time.
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Was about to say, you see a lot of deccing/mercing smaller corps, but when the hell do you see bigger/better outfits get decced? When are you deccing Pyre for talking shit/scooping up every Sansha in the cluster? When's U'K getting decced for talking shit about the Amarrians? For all the "Yeah, no backtalk bitches" it does seem to be rather selective, isn't it?
That would be new then. I can recall the permanent state of war running between EM and PIE. However the militias and the ability of alliances to join them removed much of the motivation for that.
I can see Kat's point though. If you want to fight then come and deploy near the people you want to fight. CAIN where kind enough to do that back in the day. Unfortunately for them the Black Rabbits decided to follow them down to the Republic.
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Going to war over insults is kind of well.. a waste of effort. As Kat has stated if we went to war over every petty insult we would be forever in war. Wars are objective based, at least for us and rarely fought by us. (Why put your assets on the line, screwing up logistics and core goals/efforts elsewhere when mercs can do it for you.)
I guess it depends on how thick ones skin is, or how cool one wants to seem to his peers. *Insert big kid smashing small kids face in around a bunch of his peers*
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Sorry, but just because you talk shit doesn't entitle you to us coming down there to find you and wait outside station for two weeks. If anything, it places the onus on you to come where we live and back your fuckin words up.
Basically this.
It's been my experience that people who talk shit and actually mean to back it up IC are about 1% of roleplayers.
The ones who do mean it are already on the way to shoot you and know where you are, wardecs usually unnecessary.
I can't stress it enough that most talking of smack IC is so much empty air. To wardec in response is nearly always wasting time.
Believe me if they actually want to fight and have fun they'll let you know and you'll set something up.
Much of these issues stem from the fact many roleplayers assign mary sue invulnerable status to their characters, and the idea of having this fiction damaged by losing face by being exploded publicly is enough to send most of them clamoring for the exit.
My absolute most favorite RPers and the ones I've always had the most respect for in eve are the ones who don't mind their characters losing now and then, being embarrassed, or occasionally exploding.
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Exactly. I do miss you Silias </3
The hurf durf smacktalk (Like calling people out for not undocking due to TZ differences or otherwise) is generally ignored or just labelled as children, at least that is how I approach them. However subtle intelligent debates, or slights are more likely to gain a response.
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When someone insults you, you can just reply back. I try not to leave anyone insults against me unnoticed, so if someone wants to start something against me, I will make sure they will get a lot for it :D
However, there is a more elegant solution, as mutual insults are just boring and move away from discussion :/
I have applied it on someone on IGS, who was insulting and lying about my character. I simply challenged her to duel in any way (both rp duel like in person, or in ship, more eve-like to her choice), as it could solve conflict down. She declined.
Now I have this topic and can call her out anytime I want by poking her for being a coward and liar :D
I could possibly do this for everyone who had something against my character, but the problem is, that most of them are just enemies or whose my character considers not Caldari anyway to fix relations by this way.
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A little from option B and a little from option C to be honest.
Most 'small RP corps' are going to falter within a short time of being founded anyway and if it's just hot air on IGS well, meh.
But, I would make some inquiries into their leadership, structure and corporate vision/goals/objectives. I'd take the opportunity provided by a startup corp to put some sleeper agents into it and have them work their way into positions of trust.
And if they did make a success of themselves and the original insult had been enough to make it all worth my while I'd eventually activate those assets to take their sandcastle out from underneath them.
Revenge as a dish served cold and all I suppose.