Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 14 May 2014, 15:14
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Apologies for Mittani link but a necessary evil sometimes..
http://themittani.com/features/fanfest-2014-lore-roundtable
Of particular note:
"Abraxas said that the focus is shifting away from a driving storyline and more towards developing background and the setting, highlighting themes and using the major personages of the Eve universe to showcase them. Another part of this thrust is developing a formalized style guide for Eve writers, which has evidently been overlooked. This seems to indicate that the meta-plot will become more static, similar to how it was prior to the lead up to the Empyrean Age."
So yea. CCP to NPC Plot: (http://shiningrocksoftware.com/forum/uploads/FileUpload/6a/eaed88d690df05763a3c4f7e7d9022.jpg)
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That's a good thing, yes?
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If you are a fan of the faction story lines then no, not really.
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What I mean is, it's implied that goes back to the pre-Empyrean War style. Which was better, I thought.
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What I mean is, it's implied that goes back to the pre-Empyrean War style. Which was better, I thought.
Ah, yes.
If that's what they are going for then that would be great, I think they do not mean that, though. If anything the NPC lor-story was even more important/woven into the game before EA.
It looks like most of the people into that sort of thing aren't with the organization anymore or are doing other things, and they have little interest in using resources to drive 'plot.' Capsuleers are the focus, so the Empires will be getting their shafting and fading away focus wise.
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What I mean is, it's implied that goes back to the pre-Empyrean War style. Which was better, I thought.
Ah, yes.
If that's what they are going for then that would be great, I think they do not mean that, though. If anything the NPC lor-story was even more important/woven into the game before EA.
It looks like most of the people into that sort of thing aren't with the organization anymore or are doing other things, and they have little interest in using resources to drive 'plot.' Capsuleers are the focus, so the Empires will be getting their shafting and fading away focus wise.
Mmm-hmm. The meta-plot was "static" in that there were no massive shifts in the political landscape of the universe going on - no colossal wars breaking out, no factions reappearing from the darkness for revenge, no titans falling on planets amidst a huge battle, etc.
On the other hand, the universe was anything but dynamic in that there were numerous arcs going on that did produce changes in the universe. The Amarr Emperor trials, the Crielere project, the Insorum imbroglio - while the results of many of these came with caveats that preserved the larger status quo, they were undeniable events in the universe's history - and that's before we get into things that did have an identifiable ingame effect, like the Blood Raiders getting run out of the Bleaks.
When I read Abraxas' statement, my fear is that even the 'background noise' events which defined the pre-Empyrean Age era - let alone the news stories which didn't even relate to ingame events but still helped build the universe - will be neglected entirely.
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Tasty Angst.
Guess we'll have to wait and see. Fleshing out the background with little things might be much more productive than epic shifting events, such as the empyrean war and all that 'changes over downtime' style of things. I mean, a metaplot can be good or really bad, too. It all comes down to how things are getting handled. Was the Caldari Prime storyline ~really~ that great and moved things forward? It was nice, yes, but that's about it. We had some events (which, due to PR things, will probably not get shelved), and some writing around it. But in the end it came down to reading news articles. It's not like anything has really changed in the world. :)
I guess Malkalen is repaired now cause they can. But if you look closely, that is an example that was given with the content tools, so more small ~actual~ changes like this could be much more productive than the background noise story no one can interact with.
In the end they're going to focus on "This is EVE, craft your own story", which is legit, I guess?
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Tasty Angst.
Guess we'll have to wait and see. Fleshing out the background with little things might be much more productive than epic shifting events, such as the empyrean war and all that 'changes over downtime' style of things. I mean, a metaplot can be good or really bad, too. It all comes down to how things are getting handled. Was the Caldari Prime storyline ~really~ that great and moved things forward? It was nice, yes, but that's about it. We had some events (which, due to PR things, will probably not get shelved), and some writing around it. But in the end it came down to reading news articles. It's not like anything has really changed in the world. :)
I guess Malkalen is repaired now cause they can. But if you look closely, that is an example that was given with the content tools, so more small ~actual~ changes like this could be much more productive than the background noise story no one can interact with.
In the end they're going to focus on "This is EVE, craft your own story", which is legit, I guess?
It's all legit, but I'm acknowledging a difference between ye olden days when NPC things often involved players and plots were advanced at a reasonable pace. The gears were turning in the NPC world and the capsuleers occasionally got to influence things.
It appears the gears are stopping, and the only advancing will be between groups of capsuleers.
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That much is obvious, but it doesn't necessarily translate to nothing ever happens in the NPC world.
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Being in US TZ, I don't really care about live events. I mean, I like them? They do, after all, make the world slightly more accessible to people who aren't engaged with the RP community. For me, I like seeing in-world news, as it provides texture and activity to what is otherwise a static, dead thing.
Hell, even the Gecko release could've stood some story. A couple of news articles, and voila! Lots of shiny Guristas fluff.
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What Makoto said.
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Being in US TZ, I don't really care about live events. I mean, I like them? They do, after all, make the world slightly more accessible to people who aren't engaged with the RP community. For me, I like seeing in-world news, as it provides texture and activity to what is otherwise a static, dead thing.
Hell, even the Gecko release could've stood some story. A couple of news articles, and voila! Lots of shiny Guristas fluff.
+9000 tbh
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Well, this is kind of a good excuse to double my efforts to get ANN off the ground again.
Rather than complaining about this, maybe we should try discussing what we can do to mitigate/work around it? Promoting and continuing to build on some of the player-written fluff and lore might be a good start.
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Hm. True. The only issue I have with trying to spin events, though, is that if you guess wrong on CCP's path, then you'll look foolish. :oops:
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/self criticism
Well at least we will sure see less people complaining about their faction being butchered.
/self criticism
But to me it is pretty much the confirmation that the lore has indeed become a vassal of liege lord marketing.
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Hm. True. The only issue I have with trying to spin events, though, is that if you guess wrong on CCP's path, then you'll look foolish. :oops:
You can sort of step around this a bit by going with minor/side factions, and not doing things that are- well, huge. There's always a risk that CCP might tread on things, but frankly with things going the way they are, I don't really think that it's going to be a huge issue.
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Affinity also said that she wants to be careful about putting lore into new content to avoid missions and other assets becoming obsolete in short order.
I don't know about this. Seems like separating lore and gameplay. How would someone experience the lore, if not through gameplay ? Books ? the wiki ?
If the lore isn't apparent to the player, then how would they become interested in the lore ?
While some people complain about popup messages in exploration sites or deadspace things "lore crap, get rid of it" and so on, then following their demands, so that everything you do ingame is just about numbers, then I don't think it's very immersive or interesting.
vOv
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I don't see this as a bad thing if it means a move for the lore to be in the background and a shift away from concepts such as FW or Incursions. Where, while grand and epic for a few months end up stagnating because they become game features that whither on the vine of non-resolution. I think the direction chosen has a chance to have consistent lore part of the background and not just something scribbled on the back of a napkin to justify making everything as epic as possible.
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Well, I like to do low level missions sometimes, because they often had lore stuff in them. And when I found something, it was like "neat!".
But if the future is one where missions don't have any lore stuff in them, then... there's nothing for me to look at in missions, except the numbers and red crosses.
Seems a bit kind of, I dunno, dry ?
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Well looking at it another way, the content of missions were probably written down years ago and might be a source of internal contradictions with new PF and Source right now. I mean some of the missions still talk about there being a war in a future tense I think for one.
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They are still going full epic/blockbuster in their lore. I don't believe it will change the slightest considering the last trailers we had not even a month ago.
Or did they just get an epiphany a few days ago before that announcement ?
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I think I should clarify and say that having the storyline introduced in the same way as game design changes of, "Oh wow a new ship/item!" which translates into, "Oh wow a new epic storyline development!" Just makes things awkward. FW/Incursions seem to me a result of the thinking where combining the background story with the actual game just leaves the story/plot hanging in the breeze. They can't be taken out because they're game features and because there's no longer commitment to continue the plot behind them, they end up in the absurdity of a never-ending war and never-ending incursions. Any question of as to why they would continue as they do can really only be answered with: Just because.
That's why I think any move to keep a clear delineation between the world of players as capsuleers/dusties/valks and the background fiction is nothing but a good thing given the past track record of CCP essentially dropping any semblance of story development or support for the new features they introduce once the shine wears off. Do I actually things will change? Not really. Given the new videos and intimations of "Growing capsuleer power" I can only assume there's going to be something like CONCORD signatories trying to invade null space to a lot of furor and epic vids then it will just end up something like go and shoot some super secret Fed/Empire/State/Republic sites in null for loot and bpcs instead of running DED sites.
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FW/Incursions seem to me a result of the thinking where combining the background story with the actual game just leaves the story/plot hanging in the breeze. They can't be taken out because they're game features and because there's no longer commitment to continue the plot behind them, they end up in the absurdity of a never-ending war and never-ending incursions. Any question of as to why they would continue as they do can really only be answered with: Just because.
That's pretty much the reason I could never get beind FW, despite trying. Combining a perpertual motion machine with a meat grinder just felt, well, mechanical. The rational mind boggles to make sense of it in context.
In that regard, I'm in agreement with the change in tack, and as another player from the NA market, the perennial pipe-takers of Live Events, I can't say I'll miss them.
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FW/Incursions seem to me a result of the thinking where combining the background story with the actual game just leaves the story/plot hanging in the breeze. They can't be taken out because they're game features and because there's no longer commitment to continue the plot behind them, they end up in the absurdity of a never-ending war and never-ending incursions. Any question of as to why they would continue as they do can really only be answered with: Just because.
That's pretty much the reason I could never get beind FW, despite trying. Combining a perpertual motion machine with a meat grinder just felt, well, mechanical. The rational mind boggles to make sense of it in context.
In that regard, I'm in agreement with the change in tack, and as another player from the NA market, the perennial pipe-takers of Live Events, I can't say I'll miss them.
Well FW in context basically has reduced four societies of trillions of people to being motivated by wholly irrational politics where the question of, "Why are we pumping all our profits and taxes into a war CONCORD won't let anyone win" Doesn't seem to be asked. Just as much as Incursions have reduced Sansha Kuvakei to the level of a vaudeville villain in Scooby Doo always foiled by those damn pesky capsuleers as he disgorges more minions through wormholes to be farmed for ISK and LP.
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The solution would be to let some of these gameplay things (incursions, FW) actually effect the game world. That or discontinue those features one way or the other.
I see no reason why CCP couldn't flip a few systems, blow up a few NPC stations, and have faction X do a thing to their enemy that has lasting consequences.
I'm not talking about The Empress bombing Pator but jesus have some movement on the warfront one way or the other.
Faction stuff doesn't necessarily = live events either, plenty of cool things could be done that don't involve dev loot pinatas, they are just choosing not to spend any intellectual time on this stuff.
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The solution would be to let some of these gameplay things (incursions, FW) actually effect the game world. That or discontinue those features one way or the other.
I see no reason why CCP couldn't flip a few systems, blow up a few NPC stations, and have faction X do a thing to their enemy that has lasting consequences.
I'm not talking about The Empress bombing Pator but jesus have some movement on the warfront one way or the other.
Faction stuff doesn't necessarily = live events either, plenty of cool things could be done that don't involve dev loot pinatas, they are just choosing not to spend any intellectual time on this stuff.
Sort of what Silas said, I always wondered why incursions couldn't sort of be rotated between the group doing the incursion to mix it up and have things not be static (like Sansha, then Amarr Navy into Minmater space, then Minmater into Amarr space, other pirate groups, etc). I hope the code doesn't require only Sansha npcs?
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The solution would be to let some of these gameplay things (incursions, FW) actually effect the game world. That or discontinue those features one way or the other.
I see no reason why CCP couldn't flip a few systems, blow up a few NPC stations, and have faction X do a thing to their enemy that has lasting consequences.
I'm not talking about The Empress bombing Pator but jesus have some movement on the warfront one way or the other.
Faction stuff doesn't necessarily = live events either, plenty of cool things could be done that don't involve dev loot pinatas, they are just choosing not to spend any intellectual time on this stuff.
Sort of what Silas said, I always wondered why incursions couldn't sort of be rotated between the group doing the incursion to mix it up and have things not be static (like Sansha, then Amarr Navy into Minmater space, then Minmater into Amarr space, other pirate groups, etc). I hope the code doesn't require only Sansha npcs?
The current code is probably geared towards Sansha NPCs, but I don't think it'd be to huge to swap it up some. Only shift is they'd have to introduce a supercarrier and fighter (or equivalent loot) for the other factions.
Anyhow, I entirely agree about features which include lore becoming stagnant; that was one of the things I appreciated about arcs like Crielere and the Defiants - they had definable ends with definable results. Of course, may be a :rosecoloredglasses: thing...
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The solution would be to let some of these gameplay things (incursions, FW) actually effect the game world. That or discontinue those features one way or the other.
I see no reason why CCP couldn't flip a few systems, blow up a few NPC stations, and have faction X do a thing to their enemy that has lasting consequences.
I'm not talking about The Empress bombing Pator but jesus have some movement on the warfront one way or the other.
Faction stuff doesn't necessarily = live events either, plenty of cool things could be done that don't involve dev loot pinatas, they are just choosing not to spend any intellectual time on this stuff.
Sort of what Silas said, I always wondered why incursions couldn't sort of be rotated between the group doing the incursion to mix it up and have things not be static (like Sansha, then Amarr Navy into Minmater space, then Minmater into Amarr space, other pirate groups, etc). I hope the code doesn't require only Sansha npcs?
2 things, primarily: time and means.
Creating NPCs, sites for all the different levels (Scout, Vanguard, Assault, HQ), new art assets, etc., takes a lot of time. CCP isn't about to commit to that right now - especially when their content tools are outdated and currently being rewritten.
Basically, we're not really going to be seeing any new PVE content until those tools are updated, but once that happens it should be much easier for them to make changes to things. Apparently it's something ridiculous like a week to make a single new NPC or something? I forget the exact numbers someone mentioned at Fanfest this year.
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The solution would be to let some of these gameplay things (incursions, FW) actually effect the game world. That or discontinue those features one way or the other.
I see no reason why CCP couldn't flip a few systems, blow up a few NPC stations, and have faction X do a thing to their enemy that has lasting consequences.
I'm not talking about The Empress bombing Pator but jesus have some movement on the warfront one way or the other.
Faction stuff doesn't necessarily = live events either, plenty of cool things could be done that don't involve dev loot pinatas, they are just choosing not to spend any intellectual time on this stuff.
Sort of what Silas said, I always wondered why incursions couldn't sort of be rotated between the group doing the incursion to mix it up and have things not be static (like Sansha, then Amarr Navy into Minmater space, then Minmater into Amarr space, other pirate groups, etc). I hope the code doesn't require only Sansha npcs?
People would just farm them like they already do anyway.
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From Svetlana's article:
Abraxas did not address these specifically, since the tighter integration of Eve, Valkyrie, and Dust/Legion was not revealed until the next day, but did say that how the various types of cloning worked was still a matter of some debate among CCP's writers.
This caught my attention because it sounds like it hasn't changed in the last two years. I wonder whether that's because there are strongly-held different ideas of cloning held by people with equivalent effective status within CCP, or whether they just haven't talked about it.
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The solution would be to let some of these gameplay things (incursions, FW) actually effect the game world. That or discontinue those features one way or the other.
I see no reason why CCP couldn't flip a few systems, blow up a few NPC stations, and have faction X do a thing to their enemy that has lasting consequences.
I'm not talking about The Empress bombing Pator but jesus have some movement on the warfront one way or the other.
Faction stuff doesn't necessarily = live events either, plenty of cool things could be done that don't involve dev loot pinatas, they are just choosing not to spend any intellectual time on this stuff.
One of the core issues with the idea of world shaping NPC power is that it would slam into the player sandbox. It would inevitably cause problems if an entire alliance or warzone suddenly found itself undergoing game mechanic changes because of a world event. Incursions was an approach to the idea, but the most daring effect it has is cyno jamming - nothing to the effect of security level changes, super police responses, or jump gate functionality alteration.
To crunch down an otherwise massive post: EVE has been built for the player sandbox to the exclusion of everything else. I imagine once they finalize the shift toward removing the Empires/Pirate factions, the incursion/FW features will be removed in favor of something more player controlled.
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To crunch down an otherwise massive post: EVE has been built for the player sandbox to the exclusion of everything else. I imagine once they finalize the shift toward removing the Empires/Pirate factions, the incursion/FW features will be removed in favor of something more player controlled.
I've always been in favour of having player characters divorced from the majority of what occurs with the NPCs because the crossovers such as with FW/Incursions/Live Events really haven't delivered because true world changing impacts by the NPC world really can't be delivered. I mean a simple concept such as Faction X deploys a battle fleet somewhere - does CCP have hundreds of staff to create that kind of epic scale? They don't, unless they just spawn hundreds of npc ships.
The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.
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To crunch down an otherwise massive post: EVE has been built for the player sandbox to the exclusion of everything else. I imagine once they finalize the shift toward removing the Empires/Pirate factions, the incursion/FW features will be removed in favor of something more player controlled.
I've always been in favour of having player characters divorced from the majority of what occurs with the NPCs because the crossovers such as with FW/Incursions/Live Events really haven't delivered because true world changing impacts by the NPC world really can't be delivered. I mean a simple concept such as Faction X deploys a battle fleet somewhere - does CCP have hundreds of staff to create that kind of epic scale? They don't, unless they just spawn hundreds of npc ships.
The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.
The world changing impacts of NPCs can be delivered, but it doesn't make sense to. NPCs are seen as an intrusion and unethical disruption of the player sandbox. They've never been codified into a 'force of nature' that players must compete with in any meaningful sense. Giving them any real credibility would warp the game, if not outright change the dynamics and nature of it. If a willingness to grant them such existed, I don't think we'd need hundreds of CCP staff to monitor or actively control the groups. You can program and stack the deck appropriately.
As to caps/clones/valks, in short phrasing : yes. By divorcing the player from the NPC world they are kept in a bubble, it is extremely clean to work with. No mess of player/npc power dynamics, story evolution, etc. What we usually end up seeing is half the mile in terms of deployment simply because the game can't be changed away from players. Rinse and repeat, looping problem.
Remove the NPCs and it all goes away, basically.
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I look at it the other way, that NPC-driven content could serve as a catalyst for more player activities.
The current incursion system shows how static and repeatable NPC content just turns into a new form of missioning/loot farming.
The trick would be to have the NPC's 'threaten' something the players use, more dynamic than Incursions. Something like a market-hub Jita-type system. Scary NPC fleet X is invading this system next week!
Stations will be put on alert, manufacturing will slow down/become more expensive! Repairs will cost more! Oh noes, etc!
But maybe those wily capsuleers will clear out the problem, maybe the industrialists will hire mercs to guard the area? Maybe others will hinder? Just a thought.
It's like Zorg from 5th Element. Introduce a little chaos and all this activity starts to happen.
The problem is high sec is static and complacent and people will tear at the slightest change.
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The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.
Congratulations, I think you just made me take a SAN check.
I contemplate the idea of playing EVE with no background to speak of and only other players and their machinations for motivation. And I scream in utter terror and despair.
Players in EVE are a good example of Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law). A lot of them are a waste of good life support.
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I contemplate the idea of playing EVE with no background to speak of and only other players and their machinations for motivation. And I scream in utter terror and despair.
Better get used to the idea.
Sorry folks, but CCP has been choking out the numbers of RPers and Lore-interested players for half a decade or more. If there were more than a hundred total left I'd be surprised. Everyone else, especially inside CCP, wants exactly what you've described.
This isn't doom and gloom bittervetting, just summarizing years of being on those front lines.
There is a unified vision of what EVE is meant to be, and nullsec fucksticking for eternity is unfortunately the entirety of that vision.
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There is a unified vision of what EVE is meant to be, and nullsec fucksticking for eternity is unfortunately the entirety of that vision.
Graelyn has officially won the thread, backstage, and all commenting forever.
Last one out turn off the lights.
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I have to find the link to the story, but there was something about like 90% of all people who ever subscribe to EVE leave within one or two months?
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The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.
Congratulations, I think you just made me take a SAN check.
I contemplate the idea of playing EVE with no background to speak of and only other players and their machinations for motivation. And I scream in utter terror and despair.
Players in EVE are a good example of Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law). A lot of them are a waste of good life support.
Who knows, maybe some capsuleers also scream in utter terror and despair that the day they got those pod implants was the day they began their nihilistic adventure without the warm and fuzzy feeling one gets from the cultural values they practically left behind.
I suppose it's a matter of perspective and which aspects of the lore and background appeals. Sure, if what you want is to roleplay a human being that's part of a society bigger than themselves or whatever, then yeah it's probably disappointing the direction EVE appears to be headed. Personally, I have no issues exploring my character as capsuleer infomorph where the background fiction is just that, the background of who they were but not who they are now depending on what they do in-game.
It's just a space adventure for me at the end of the day, that I play with others roleplayer or not. That and the thematic element of trying to explore a capsuleer as a capsuleer that struggles to make sense of the world they now inhabit, the life they lead, and find their own meaning and value in an existence that can be cruel, harsh, indifferent, and uncompromising, has been a rewarding experience.
So I guess just for myself, I don't really have the need or expectation for CCP to provide the content and interactions because other players already do that for me on different levels
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<snip>
The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.
Congratulations, I think you just made me take a SAN check.
I contemplate the idea of playing EVE with no background to speak of and only other players and their machinations for motivation. And I scream in utter terror and despair.
Players in EVE are a good example of Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law). A lot of them are a waste of good life support.
Who knows, maybe some capsuleers also scream in utter terror and despair that the day they got those pod implants was the day they began their nihilistic adventure without the warm and fuzzy feeling one gets from the cultural values they practically left behind.
I suppose it's a matter of perspective and which aspects of the lore and background appeals. Sure, if what you want is to roleplay a human being that's part of a society bigger than themselves or whatever, then yeah it's probably disappointing the direction EVE appears to be headed. Personally, I have no issues exploring my character as capsuleer infomorph where the background fiction is just that, the background of who they were but not who they are now depending on what they do in-game.
It's just a space adventure for me at the end of the day, that I play with others roleplayer or not. That and the thematic element of trying to explore a capsuleer as a capsuleer that struggles to make sense of the world they now inhabit, the life they lead, and find their own meaning and value in an existence that can be cruel, harsh, indifferent, and uncompromising, has been a rewarding experience.
So I guess just for myself, I don't really have the need or expectation for CCP to provide the content and interactions because other players already do that for me on different levels
I think that's admirable, but to echo Graelyn, it doesn't hurt when the people crafting the world we inhabit feel like partners and not enemies hurdles and obstacles to get around/through.
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The thing is, EVE supposedly gives you all options. But if 'all options' are reduced to 'once you're a capsuleer, you can't have any ties whatsoever to your prior life and the society you lived in and you do better anyway to leave all values behind', then that's not a lot of 'all options' in my book.
So, at the end of the day CCP wants you to play their game like they want it to be played. And that different from what they preach: That they want to provide a game you can play like you want to.
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I think that's admirable, but to echo Graelyn, it doesn't hurt when the people crafting the world we inhabit feel like partners and not enemies hurdles and obstacles to get around/through.
I probably said this months ago, and it was due to my own experiences during the whole Heth Downfall saga when I began playing Veik as a Provist: the best means to reduce frustration in my personal roleplay was not to place any expectations or demands on CCP to provide meaningful IC content.
End of the day, my roleplay is with other players, not with the NPC and players provide better content for me because their behaviour and actions aren't defined by an AI.
The thing is, EVE supposedly gives you all options. But if 'all options' are reduced to 'once you're a capsuleer, you can't have any ties whatsoever to your prior life and the society you lived in and you do better anyway to leave all values behind', then that's not a lot of 'all options' in my book.
So, at the end of the day CCP wants you to play their game like they want it to be played. And that different from what they preach: That they want to provide a game you can play like you want to.
No, Eve doesn't give me all the options. I can't do independent research. I can't crash entire economies with all my space cash. I can't ram a supercapital into a station. I can't do a lot of things in EVE I'd like to.
As for a requirement for factional loyalties for people's characters, I certainly don't see anything wrong with that because everything is a matter of perspective and what people do with their chars isn't all too much my own concern. I mean there's all sorts of ways to frame being a loyalist or whatever if people want to in their own RP.
I've just found approaching EVE RP as a capsuleer from the angle of some kind of Faustian morality tale where a character makes a devil's bargain to go independent then going from there far less of a hassle than being disappointed expecting some kind of reciprocity from CCP or special dispensations just because I say I'm a roleplayer.
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No, Eve doesn't give me all the options. I can't do independent research. I can't crash entire economies with all my space cash. I can't ram a supercapital into a station. I can't do a lot of things in EVE I'd like to.
As for a requirement for factional loyalties for people's characters, I certainly don't see anything wrong with that because everything is a matter of perspective and what people do with their chars isn't all too much my own concern. I mean there's all sorts of ways to frame being a loyalist or whatever if people want to in their own RP.
I've just found approaching EVE RP as a capsuleer from the angle of some kind of Faustian morality tale where a character makes a devil's bargain to go independent then going from there far less of a hassle than being disappointed expecting some kind of reciprocity from CCP or special dispensations just because I say I'm a roleplayer.
I'd agree with you except that for 'back in the day' it was a different story.
There was a fabled time when the dungeon masters wanted us to participate in their story, made content for us, interacted with us, and made most of their content faction and lore oriented. Countless events and arcs for faction loyal capsuleers (and others). Countless little and big plots and arcs.
So the new direction of hands off is on purpose, but I know how different it can be, with any effort by them.
It's not rose-tinted glasses, it really was better.
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I'd agree with you except that for 'back in the day' it was a different story.
There was a fabled time when the dungeon masters wanted us to participate in their story, made content for us, interacted with us, and made most of their content faction and lore oriented. Countless events and arcs for faction loyal capsuleers (and others). Countless little and big plots and arcs.
So the new direction of hands off is on purpose, but I know how different it can be, with any effort by them.
It's not rose-tinted glasses, it really was better.
Well I started RP in Eve around 06/07 and sure I had some fun with the Fed Rise arcs and Intaki related shenanigans but honestly I think I just got used to the period of practically non-NPC/Dev/CCP interactions in my RP from about 08 onwards with FW. I just adjusted to not needing them in my lore/RP/IC interactions anymore to the point that while even some of the "yellow text" chats and involvement from last year were also fun they really weren't something I felt I needed.
I mean even when I think of the LE from last year like Caldari Prime, what was fun for me wasn't the NPC chars talking in local but rather all the players that I got to shoot at. Sometimes I get the feeling that a lot of other rp'ers want to have a feeling that they can have an impact, or make a difference on what happens with the factions. For myself however, I don't really have much issue if the factions move independently of what we as player-characters do because they're already societies and organizations of billions to trillions of people to me.
I fail to see what isn't immersive about CCP deciding to head down the path of, "The people of New Eden will carry on doing what they do irrespective of what you as a player or character may think, say, or do."
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I fail to see what isn't immersive about CCP deciding to head down the path of, "The people of New Eden will carry on doing what they do irrespective of what you as a player or character may think, say, or do."
But all the trailers say they are all scared of us and how super scary we are! quaking in their boots! :lol:
It's always been a problematic dissonance with the PF. All powerful demigods or puny CONCORD puppets.
Would almost prefer an 'Factions gang up on all capsuleers' and banish us ala Sansha storyline - banished to whatever on other side of new stargates.
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No, Eve doesn't give me all the options. I can't do independent research. I can't crash entire economies with all my space cash. I can't ram a supercapital into a station. I can't do a lot of things in EVE I'd like to.
*snipping* this bit because I'd like to respond to it directly: In the second golden age of Live Events (Incursions + Arek'Jalaan) we did get to do this.
Crash a supercapital into a station? Not exactly, but on player suggestion we had an entire event arc with CCP actors involved regarding crashing a freighter into a wormhole. It happened, in space, with explosions, and is a definite part of the larger Incursion story.
Independent research? Oof, where do I begin? Arek'Jalaan had piles of this, some of which reached potentially metagaming levels in its methods but was fun nonetheless.
You know what the best thing about this was? We had lots of people involved in this. I don't want to call them 'non-RPers' because they really were taking the extra step to RP as a person in the universe, but they certainly weren't what I'd call 'traditional RPers'. The guy who crashed the freighter into a wormhole? Not a traditional RPer. The wormholers submitting piles of research to Arek'Jalaan? Definitely not traditional RPers.
But they took the time to take those few extra steps and instead of merely trying to exert their influence over the game world as so many players do, they tried to work within the game world. In return, they were acknowledge - and, yes, at times told 'no'. But it was a kind of interaction I've really only rarely seen, and it was glorious.
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<snip>
The paradigm of where capsuleers/clone troopers/valkyries exist and operate in their own little world mostly separated from the rest of the cluster seems a more efficient and cleaner option than mixing fiction where you can essentially make up whatever you want and the realities of the game mechanics and design where everything can become messy.
Congratulations, I think you just made me take a SAN check.
I contemplate the idea of playing EVE with no background to speak of and only other players and their machinations for motivation. And I scream in utter terror and despair.
Players in EVE are a good example of Sturgeon's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law). A lot of them are a waste of good life support.
I laughed.
Couldn't have said it better. :lol:
Who knows, maybe some capsuleers also scream in utter terror and despair that the day they got those pod implants was the day they began their nihilistic adventure without the warm and fuzzy feeling one gets from the cultural values they practically left behind.
I suppose it's a matter of perspective and which aspects of the lore and background appeals. Sure, if what you want is to roleplay a human being that's part of a society bigger than themselves or whatever, then yeah it's probably disappointing the direction EVE appears to be headed. Personally, I have no issues exploring my character as capsuleer infomorph where the background fiction is just that, the background of who they were but not who they are now depending on what they do in-game.
It's just a space adventure for me at the end of the day, that I play with others roleplayer or not. That and the thematic element of trying to explore a capsuleer as a capsuleer that struggles to make sense of the world they now inhabit, the life they lead, and find their own meaning and value in an existence that can be cruel, harsh, indifferent, and uncompromising, has been a rewarding experience.
So I guess just for myself, I don't really have the need or expectation for CCP to provide the content and interactions because other players already do that for me on different levels
I don't necessarily see a dichotomy between capsuleers and mortals/humans. What got me interested in Eve lore was the relationship of capsuleers towards the mortal world and the rest of the NPC lore universe. There was an interesting contrast to be played with a lot of themes to be brought between demigods and the high sec empires of mortals, and the lore in general (aka, what is not player generated in null). There is not much interesting to me in a world populated by demi gods when everyone is a demigod. It would be like playing Vampire the Masquerade populated only with Vampires... How boring.
And that, without even counting on Sturgeon's law. I considered and still consider that player generated lore in nullsec and stuff like that by organisations called xxXDeathXxx or goonswarm or BoB revolving around "this territory belongs to me, and lo and behold, I disbanded your alliance like the ebil traitor I am" is part of Sturgeon's law. Never found it really attractive... Compare that to Black Mountain or Federal elections, or else... There is not much doubt which one I will choose.
The same way I never really found attractive yellow coloured text in local attractive, as well as mass live events. What was interesting was all what was happening around all that. News, RP shenanigans, etc.
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Sorry folks, but CCP has been choking out the numbers of RPers and Lore-interested players for half a decade or more.
I disagree that CCP has been choking the RP community. They have caused a significant shrinkage of RPers in the game both through lack of involvement and sheer incompetence when they do get involved but i don't think I've ever gotten the idea they've been actively trying to push them out.
Apart from that a reasonable amount of blame is to put with the RP community itself as well. RPers tend to be rather defensive and on many occasions elitist/condescending to regular players which only expands the gap between regular players and RPers and reduces the influx of new blood into the RP community.
Regular players don't look at the RP community and go 'i want to get involved in that', their initial response is usually less positive. CCP events had the advantage of introducing them to the concept of role-playing without requiring any real involvement on their part which was an easy way for regular players to slowly slip into it. With these events gone, its up to the RP community itself to attract people towards role-playing or accept that its numbers will continue to shrink.
Also i think there's between 200 and 300 RPers/Lore Interested people left in eve, 100 strikes me as somewhat low though obviously the amount is at an all-time low regardless of its actual number.
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I fail to see what isn't immersive about CCP deciding to head down the path of, "The people of New Eden will carry on doing what they do irrespective of what you as a player or character may think, say, or do."
But all the trailers say they are all scared of us and how super scary we are! quaking in their boots! :lol:
It's always been a problematic dissonance with the PF. All powerful demigods or puny CONCORD puppets.
Would almost prefer an 'Factions gang up on all capsuleers' and banish us ala Sansha storyline - banished to whatever on other side of new stargates.
Just make sure we also got the option of coming back to murder-death-kill them in return, via player-run Incursions. Preferably in a scale that would make Sansha envious.
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Apart from that a reasonable amount of blame is to put with the RP community itself as well. RPers tend to be rather defensive and on many occasions elitist/condescending to regular players which only expands the gap between regular players and RPers and reduces the influx of new blood into the RP community.
This. RPers are frequently their own worst enemy.
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Apart from that a reasonable amount of blame is to put with the RP community itself as well. RPers tend to be rather defensive and on many occasions elitist/condescending to regular players which only expands the gap between regular players and RPers and reduces the influx of new blood into the RP community.
This. RPers are frequently their own worst enemy.
Humans in general are their own worst enemy.
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Word.
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It's always been a problematic dissonance with the PF. All powerful demigods or puny CONCORD puppets.
I don't think it's much of a dissonance if a capsuleer is comparatively powerful to the average person and part of an elite club yet also deliberately constrained and regulated in that power by CONCORD. That's part of the divorce I was talking about between the CONCORD regulated world of empyreans and the rest of humanity that CONCORD desires to reduce their impact upon. Hence, why there's no issue for me having the player driven world we play in, and the CCP driven world of the different factions happening in the background to it with only moments of overlap and intersection. It makes sense to me.
*snipping* this bit because I'd like to respond to it directly: In the second golden age of Live Events (Incursions + Arek'Jalaan) we did get to do this.
Crash a supercapital into a station? Not exactly, but on player suggestion we had an entire event arc with CCP actors involved regarding crashing a freighter into a wormhole. It happened, in space, with explosions, and is a definite part of the larger Incursion story.
Independent research? Oof, where do I begin? Arek'Jalaan had piles of this, some of which reached potentially metagaming levels in its methods but was fun nonetheless.
You know what the best thing about this was? We had lots of people involved in this. I don't want to call them 'non-RPers' because they really were taking the extra step to RP as a person in the universe, but they certainly weren't what I'd call 'traditional RPers'. The guy who crashed the freighter into a wormhole? Not a traditional RPer. The wormholers submitting piles of research to Arek'Jalaan? Definitely not traditional RPers.
But they took the time to take those few extra steps and instead of merely trying to exert their influence over the game world as so many players do, they tried to work within the game world. In return, they were acknowledge - and, yes, at times told 'no'. But it was a kind of interaction I've really only rarely seen, and it was glorious.
I'm sure both the incursions and arek'jaalan were interesting, I just never personally viewed Live Events as something required or essential in order to RP or immerse myself in the game world.
And that, without even counting on Sturgeon's law. I considered and still consider that player generated lore in nullsec and stuff like that by organisations called xxXDeathXxx or goonswarm or BoB revolving around "this territory belongs to me, and lo and behold, I disbanded your alliance like the ebil traitor I am" is part of Sturgeon's law. Never found it really attractive... Compare that to Black Mountain or Federal elections, or else... There is not much doubt which one I will choose.
Well, a lot of violent areas in the world often also have a bunch of groups with a whole lot of long names and acronyms which is about what nullsec amounts to. However since, you brought up Black Mountain and that's a story then I suppose to me RP for you is writing stories and not the interactions that take place with other players.
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It's always been a problematic dissonance with the PF. All powerful demigods or puny CONCORD puppets.
I don't think it's much of a dissonance if a capsuleer is comparatively powerful to the average person and part of an elite club yet also deliberately constrained and regulated in that power by CONCORD. That's part of the divorce I was talking about between the CONCORD regulated world of empyreans and the rest of humanity that CONCORD desires to reduce their impact upon. Hence, why there's no issue for me having the player driven world we play in, and the CCP driven world of the different factions happening in the background to it with only moments of overlap and intersection. It makes sense to me.
But the thing is there's been an incredibly amount of PF swing with capsuleers. Sometimes they are demi-gods and the npc factions are super scared of them (recent trailers, lots of the fiction). And then other times nothing we do matters to anyone we are in a little bubble that doesn't effect anything ever. So which is it?
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It's always been a problematic dissonance with the PF. All powerful demigods or puny CONCORD puppets.
I don't think it's much of a dissonance if a capsuleer is comparatively powerful to the average person and part of an elite club yet also deliberately constrained and regulated in that power by CONCORD. That's part of the divorce I was talking about between the CONCORD regulated world of empyreans and the rest of humanity that CONCORD desires to reduce their impact upon. Hence, why there's no issue for me having the player driven world we play in, and the CCP driven world of the different factions happening in the background to it with only moments of overlap and intersection. It makes sense to me.
But the thing is there's been an incredibly amount of PF swing with capsuleers. Sometimes they are demi-gods and the npc factions are super scared of them (recent trailers, lots of the fiction). And then other times nothing we do matters to anyone we are in a little bubble that doesn't effect anything ever. So which is it?
Achilles was a pretty badass demi-god hero until he got stabbed in the heel. As for how I personally contextualize it, I just have the points switched around: Capsuleers/empyreans live in a gilded cage managed and controlled by CONCORD and the fear the factions have is that they will break free from that control.
Anyway, for myself I treat the lore background and the factions a lot like those "filler" episodes in a series that provide extra information or flashbacks or whatever. Nice to have and to know but not essential if the interest is in the character dynamics which in EVE is what I do in the game with other people.
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Then, it doesn't matter whether there's the Amarr or some other entity which you 'fill the gaps' with. But then, it doesn't really matter what the background is at all.
Of course, by that reasoning holes and contradictions in PF don't matter.
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Then, it doesn't matter whether there's the Amarr or some other entity which you 'fill the gaps' with. But then, it doesn't really matter what the background is at all.
Of course, by that reasoning holes and contradictions in PF don't matter.
Well I suppose it's like watching a play and whether you're focused on the background painting and whether the architecture presented is in fact a realistic reflection of 16th century venice as the script says or if you're more intent on delivering your lines, impromptu or not, for me.
Sure the background serves a purpose, and in EVE I think that's to add some flavour and texture to what's occurring but I'm also realistic in the fact that at the present day there's no real way to deliver some form of actual mutual consequence that's dynamic. FW and Incursions aren't dynamic because we're not playing EVE in the Matrix or something. I mean even when you play a factional loyalist of any variety you have to pretend that there's real consequence to what you do, when really there isn't.
So yes, the paradigm where you have one world with capsuleers/empyreans that's dynamic due to it being defined by players and the background world that can be dynamic by virtue of a writing staff that can make things develop without player input seems better to me than being unrealistic in my expectations in having them merged when with current technology all you'd end up with is another variation of FW or Incursions that aren't dynamic at all.
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Sure the background serves a purpose, and in EVE I think that's to add some flavour and texture to what's occurring but I'm also realistic in the fact that at the present day there's no real way to deliver some form of actual mutual consequence that's dynamic. FW and Incursions aren't dynamic because we're not playing EVE in the Matrix or something. I mean even when you play a factional loyalist of any variety you have to pretend that there's real consequence to what you do, when really there isn't.
So yes, the paradigm where you have one world with capsuleers/empyreans that's dynamic due to it being defined by players and the background world that can be dynamic by virtue of a writing staff that can make things develop without player input seems better to me than being unrealistic in my expectations in having them merged when with current technology all you'd end up with is another variation of FW or Incursions that aren't dynamic at all.
Valid approach no doubt.
My issue/point of the thread would be that that close connection between the 'background' game world and the players did exist at one point, and people built their experiences around that.
Then a wall was built up between them. People like you have figured out how to do just fine without it, but plenty of others are feeling a bit miffed dedicating their fictional alter egos to causes or groups that have much to do with a background fiction and factions, that have just been told will no longer have anything to do with them.
So instead of having one transhumanist Star Fraction pro capsuleer group, CCP are sort of saying 'that's all of you now!'
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My issue/point of the thread would be that that close connection between the 'background' game world and the players did exist at one point, and people built their experiences around that.
Then a wall was built up between them. People like you have figured out how to do just fine without it, but plenty of others are feeling a bit miffed dedicating their fictional alter egos to causes or groups that have much to do with a background fiction and factions, that have just been told will no longer have anything to do with them.
So instead of having one transhumanist Star Fraction pro capsuleer group, CCP are sort of saying 'that's all of you now!'
Well I think the question for me is to the degree to which you consider your own roleplay dependent upon NPC/Dev/CCP actions. However, while my characters are indeed transhuman capsuleers in general and infomorphs in particular that does not mean they are solely defined as such, nor are they defined to me solely on the basis of being, "Pro-something" or "Loyalists" to a certain faction.
Whilst it might be unfortunate that things have/will change to less player-NPC interaction or intersections, that does not change the fact that it does feel like there are two options to me right now. One is to insist upon it and likely become disillusioned and disappointed awaiting the arrival of CCP Godot to deliver it. The second is to decouple personal or organizational RP into your own framework and lessen the expectations of CCP to provide the toys to play in the EVE sandbox as regards RP.
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Tbh, I think adding static gameplay systems revolving around the factions was far worse for faction-oriented players than reducing news updates/increasing capsuleer power (which we don't know if that's what they're doing, as it could be as Svetlana theorizes and moving back to low key news and away from big sweeping storylines, which is a positive).
There is something to be said for remaining loyal to a faction and fighting to the bitter end as that faction slowly loses its grip on its territory. This is something that would be fun for RP, as it is a conflict and spurs character development. There is no need for the empires to always remain stable forces in the universe, or that their only enemies should be each other.
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My issue/point of the thread would be that that close connection between the 'background' game world and the players did exist at one point, and people built their experiences around that.
Then a wall was built up between them. People like you have figured out how to do just fine without it, but plenty of others are feeling a bit miffed dedicating their fictional alter egos to causes or groups that have much to do with a background fiction and factions, that have just been told will no longer have anything to do with them.
So instead of having one transhumanist Star Fraction pro capsuleer group, CCP are sort of saying 'that's all of you now!'
Well I think the question for me is to the degree to which you consider your own roleplay dependent upon NPC/Dev/CCP actions. However, while my characters are indeed transhuman capsuleers in general and infomorphs in particular that does not mean they are solely defined as such, nor are they defined to me solely on the basis of being, "Pro-something" or "Loyalists" to a certain faction.
Whilst it might be unfortunate that things have/will change to less player-NPC interaction or intersections, that does not change the fact that it does feel like there are two options to me right now. One is to insist upon it and likely become disillusioned and disappointed awaiting the arrival of CCP Godot to deliver it. The second is to decouple personal or organizational RP into your own framework and lessen the expectations of CCP to provide the toys to play in the EVE sandbox as regards RP.
NPC Godot was there though, he hung out for a few years and did stuff, then he was like
"fuck you guys I'm out. Noobs" :P
The thread was more a way to comment on the fact that this was now explicitly the ccp lore policy rather than the slow death we had been used to for the last few years.
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So. Circling back to news, as I don't expect CCP to provide individual interaction via NPCs, or even necessarily frequent events, I do feel that someone taking a bit of time to write up developments -before- the expansion drops would do a lot for getting players jazzed.
For instance, one of Kronos's big story things will be Mordu interventions in lowsec-- not just Mordu ships in belts, but also Mordu ships assaulting ghost sites, which will be the introduction vector for the new low-grade implant sets. They could easily begin the process of introducing this story arc now or, hell, once Fanfest hit and they announced the Mordu ships.
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About why I despair on relying on pure player interaction to generate content.
One of my favourite writers is Charlie Stross and he has a blog over at antipope.org. Currently theyare discussing the nature of heroism in this thread (http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2014/05/the-myth-of-heroism.html#comments).
What caught my eye in relation to this discussion was in comment number 84:
Basically, the acts which are universally considered evil - random murder, torture, raping children - are acts which would lead to nightmare societies if they became widespread.
[And, before anyone mentions the death penalty. that's not random murder.]
Imagine if anyone you met might to kill you on a whim, and all the bystanders wouldn't so much as tut disapprovingly, just step over your cooling corpse and go about their daily business.
There are doubtless some people who'd love to live in such a world, but not many, and most of them would probably soon regret it if they got their wish.
Having a category for such behaviour is useful, even if it's difficult to define.
And yet this nightmare society, where people destroy others on a whim, seems to be a close match for the way a lot of EVE players behave.
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NPC Godot was there though, he hung out for a few years and did stuff, then he was like
"fuck you guys I'm out. Noobs" :P
The thread was more a way to comment on the fact that this was now explicitly the ccp lore policy rather than the slow death we had been used to for the last few years.
Well I've never been for one to wallow in nostalgia.
Frankly, about the only thing I would desire from CCP is just regular news articles to make it feel like the New Eden is moving along despite what capsuleers do. Even something like an IC newsfeed akin to Reuters bulletins would be fun where it's just short headlines + one sentence summary. Maybe even provide a "Would you like to know more?" button for them so then CCP writers can gauge which headlines appear to be of interest to people for further elaboration with a full article.
I don't think every news item from CCP has to be related to new story developments or to explain new in-game items. Even fluff pieces and good news stories would probably going some way in providing some depth and connection to the world in lieu of live events and the like.
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Well, a lot of violent areas in the world often also have a bunch of groups with a whole lot of long names and acronyms which is about what nullsec amounts to. However since, you brought up Black Mountain and that's a story then I suppose to me RP for you is writing stories and not the interactions that take place with other players.
No need to jump to conclusions. If that was the case I would never have started to RP ingame to begin with.
I just mentioned the first chronicle that came to mind, followed by the first series of news that came to mind. I could have mentioned a lot of other things lore related as well, either written by CCP staff or RPers.
Not stuff that sound like they have been written by players as players and not characters. The difference is pretty obvious and blatant to my eyes. When I read Veik, I feel like I am dealing with Veik the ruthless caldari executive. Unfortunately, that's not the case when I read most non RPers.
About why I despair on relying on pure player interaction to generate content.
One of my favourite writers is Charlie Stross and he has a blog over at antipope.org. Currently theyare discussing the nature of heroism in this thread (http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2014/05/the-myth-of-heroism.html#comments).
What caught my eye in relation to this discussion was in comment number 84:
Basically, the acts which are universally considered evil - random murder, torture, raping children - are acts which would lead to nightmare societies if they became widespread.
[And, before anyone mentions the death penalty. that's not random murder.]
Imagine if anyone you met might to kill you on a whim, and all the bystanders wouldn't so much as tut disapprovingly, just step over your cooling corpse and go about their daily business.
There are doubtless some people who'd love to live in such a world, but not many, and most of them would probably soon regret it if they got their wish.
Having a category for such behaviour is useful, even if it's difficult to define.
And yet this nightmare society, where people destroy others on a whim, seems to be a close match for the way a lot of EVE players behave.
That. When I see most non RP pvpers in EvE playing and have to take that into my own RP (since they exist in the universe too after all), I don't have the feeling to evolve with true capsuleers. I have the feeling to evolve with l33t gamers or the average CoD player.
Still explainable ICly, but damn it's depressing.
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Exactly, depressing is the right word. Of course I can have RP without a background that is relevant, but I don't need to RP in EVE, then. It's not like EVE is the only place for me to RP (I have several pen & paper groups out there and also know of other MMOGs where I could go RPing) or that it is so astonishing gameplay wise that I want to stay and RP in EVE come what wills PF wise.
Of course I can ignore all the shortcomings of CCP in regards to background/PF and player involvement in allthat, but what really hooked me on EVE was that we players mattered to the PF and that the PF was good. Now after they worked that PF down pretty much in my opinion they also squash any hope for players getting involved in it in the future again.
So, can I RP in EVE? Sure. The question remains, though, if I want to and bejond that: If it is worthwhile to. Nowadays I wouldn't recommend my RPing friends to get involved in RP in EVE. It's just not worth it anymore, imho. Doesn't mean it's a bad game, just that it gets worse and worse for RPing, imho. vOv I dunno what your standards for RP are, Veik, or whether you RP at all outside of EVE, but it's all a question of perspective: It's not just that other pastures seem greener to me, nowadays, I've been to them and I noticed that they really are.
Ofc. now comes the 'If you don't like it, you don't need to do it'. Exactly. I can leave EVE and I will, frankly, if they walk further down the road I feel they're walking right now. Doesn't mean I can't point out how the quality of EVE as an RP environment has degenerated, no?
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Can't say I'd agree with the claim that other pastures are greener. Having participated in MMO RP communities for over a decade, EVE is unique in the ability for players, both RPers and OOCers, to actually influence the universe and its lore. The ability to influence the lore might have diminished over the years, but it's still far more than the rest of MMOs where the capability isn't possible at all and never was.
Now, PnPs or PWs (NWN etc) offer more of that possibility, but that's moving away from MMOs.
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Now, when did last players actually influence the Lore of EVE?
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Last year was the most recent example, with things like Korsavius' anti-Provist rally, the Pyre trial thing, Hearth and Home and the other CP relief efforts, and supposedly the current ground situation on Caldari Prime (it's hard to determine how much of it they were planning to do already, and how much was influenced by Caldari players maintaining ground dominance despite the effect of the space battle).
I do consider something as little as having yourself and your actions acknowledged in official IC news articles to be having an influence on lore, and it's something that I can't really think of any other MMO that has allowed. There doesn't need to be actual major impact and change for it to be an influence in my opinion--the simple fact of your actions being recognized in-universe by official sources is something I personally find amazing. In any other MMO, my RP actions have no meaning except to other RPers, and even then it's only other RPers on the same server I'm on. The developers, let alone the official NPC factions, have no clue that I even exist, nor do they care what I or my characters have done in roleplay scenarios in their universe. As far as they are concerned, all these RPers and all their characters are just playing out fanfiction, playing alternate universes, rather than actually being a real, living part of their universe. In EVE, even as little as a year ago there is still, if diminished, a recognition and acknowledgement of roleplay actions on the universe itself. What we do is actually happening in the EVE universe, is actually part of this universe that CCP has made.
That means a lot to me.
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Now, I have been on UO servers - private ones, to be fair, but I think that's not disqualifying them at all - where GMs ran a lot of NPC positions. those NPCs acknowledged very well actions of PCs. There were city guards who chased criminal players and there were PCs starting out as nobodies who got knighted for their actions. Players started rebellions against the king and others worked against those, there were intrigue and all those shenanigans and it all really mattered. Then the people organizing all this got children and unfortunately no one wanted/had time to take over. All with around a thousand people. And really, we don't have that many RPers in EVE... at least the last estimates I heared here on the Forums were disagreeing whether it's 100 or closer to 200. Tbh I don't think we have that many people in EVE giving a dime on whether there's a newsarticle about stuff or not.
I personally don't see how CCP taking in news reports is really equal to people having influence on PF. They simply like to get free news items, imho. That said 'a year ago' is a long time on the internet and for a game, I think. It's over 150€.
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I do think your example being private server disqualifies it. Otherwise I would also consider things like WoW private servers. In such case it's still the RPers inventing their own alternate universe, running their own fanfiction. Only difference from live servers is that, instead of simply emoting and imagining it they are able to actually alter the world directly. In that sense they are closer to PWs on games like NWN. Their actions still have no acknowledgement by the people who actually created the universe, nor are they recognized as part that overall universe's lore and story. In EVE the players are not simply a part of the local "server lore" as is the case of individual RP servers on other MMOs and PWs, but part of the overall universe lore.
And I do think news reports is having an influence on the PF. It doesn't matter if there's no lasting impact. What matters is that the roleplayers did a roleplay thing, and the developers went and said, "Yeah, that thing you did? That happened. Your characters exist in our universe, and they did something." In the case of a news article, not only has it been acknowledged as happening, but it's been immortalized.
Now I'm not going to say that RP in other MMOs isn't worthwhile or anything like that. Because it is and there is certainly a lot to be said for RPing in a game where you don't have to worry about that oversight and can go all out with actually taking direct control of the game world to shape your plots and stories (something you can't do in EVE's RP environment). But for me personally, I've done all that already, I've explored all of that for years. EVE is something different for me, and something I still consider a worthwhile experience for what it offers.
I think, for me, it is that in EVE I feel like I'm actually part of something. In other MMO environments, I feel like I'm creating something. In EVE I'm a cog, small but an acknowledged part of the machine, in another MMO I'm a storyteller taking some static sourcebooks and props and using them to create epic narratives for myself and my friends to enjoy. Both have merits, but for me right now I just want to be a cog, a character whom I can feel is actually a real part of this universe I'm playing in. Maybe in a year or two I'll be back in my storyteller phase and lamenting my inability to effect major change on the story and bounce to a different MMO where I have that capability (I know I've certainly complained about the inability to do that on EVE to people already when feeling burned out). *shrugs* Different strokes. Point is, I do think EVE still offers something different that is still appealing to people who are looking for that experience. It's not a matter of "grass is greener" so much as it is different views from the pateo.
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Their actions still have no acknowledgement by the people who actually created the universe, nor are they recognized as part that overall universe's lore and story.
Well, of course their actions were acknowledged by the people who created the universe: It's not that the server was simply an UO jack-off. It was a server where people had developed an independent, unique background. There was staff running the server, people playing NPCs and all that shenanigan. The only thing that really distinguished them was that they weren't taking money for the work they were putting into this (aside from donations to keep the servers running).
So, yes, their actions were acknowledged by the very people who created that universe and it was recognized as the universe's lore and story.
And I do think news reports is having an influence on the PF. It doesn't matter if there's no lasting impact. What matters is that the roleplayers did a roleplay thing, and the developers went and said, "Yeah, that thing you did? That happened. Your characters exist in our universe, and they did something." In the case of a news article, not only has it been acknowledged as happening, but it's been immortalized.
That's a pat on the head and a paternalizing one at that, imho: "Oh how nice, you did a thing! Now, but don't expect that to have any real lasting effect, it could ruin the storyline as we intend it to develop."
I think, for me, it is that in EVE I feel like I'm actually part of something. In other MMO environments, I feel like I'm creating something. In EVE I'm a cog, small but an acknowledged part of the machine, in another MMO I'm a storyteller taking some static sourcebooks and props and using them to create epic narratives for myself and my friends to enjoy. Both have merits, but for me right now I just want to be a cog, a character whom I can feel is actually a real part of this universe I'm playing in. Maybe in a year or two I'll be back in my storyteller phase and lamenting my inability to effect major change on the story and bounce to a different MMO where I have that capability (I know I've certainly complained about the inability to do that on EVE to people already when feeling burned out). *shrugs* Different strokes. Point is, I do think EVE still offers something different that is still appealing to people who are looking for that experience. It's not a matter of "grass is greener" so much as it is different views from the pateo.
Well, of course it's a question of what you're looking for, that's agiven. But in EVE you're a cog in a giant machine whether you do roleplay or not. And the PF does nothing about that, exactly because of the divide between players and lore that becomes more and more pronounced. You can't really play a cog in the Empire's machinery, really. Yes, you can be apart of PIE, get ordered around and such. But that's PIE doing stuff for PIE. It's really players creating stuff for players, just as in any other MMORPG. The news items that involve players? Well, they are really player stuff created for players, just that CCP institutionalized that. Doesn't mean they really do recognize it: In fact they are quite ready to fuck over stuff that people established and that got posted as news items.
It's all for the sake to make one feel to be a part of EVE. It's very cunning, as it is a good tool to raise player retention rates. But there's a difference between feeling to be taking part in something, by getting some superficial recognition, and actually taking part in it, having any real influence.
[/bittervet]
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And yet this nightmare society, where people destroy others on a whim, seems to be a close match for the way a lot of EVE players behave.
The leet/CoD realm of behavior is another one of those reasons why null isn't for me. Even if I was good at PvP, which is at this point a pipe dream, killmails are just absolutley irrelevant to my enjoyment of the game. For these Sov entities, however, they are the primary propaganda tool, and a chief yardstick by which their impact (ego) in New Eden can be measured. Not saying that's wrong, just that it is why I relegate Null developments to the same 'background noise' as much of the officially-penned Empire news items.
In terms of character, to someone raised in Empire whose neighbors are baseliners inseparable from the machinations of earning a living in this troubled and distant future, these genocidal maniacs are a thankfully distant bogeyman. The GalNet analytics technician on a Verge Vendor station who has mouths to feed and a relative with a genetic disease doesn't care who took what system from whom 15 parsecs away. Neither do I.
At least, that's how I deal with that type of player in terms of character. Compartmentalize.
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It seems to me that the fact CCP changes anything at all about thier IP, down to the smallest reference in a news story, because of the actions of an extremely small subset of their playerbase is pretty sweet. Imagine what they would change if there were more of us and we were more active in the greater community.
CCP has many faults no doubt, but how much of this can be laid at our feet? Why should they make a game according to our wants when so many others want something different?
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CCP enjoys changing anything about their IP and their canon, retcon after retcon, and actually not making it evolve anymore in relation with players actions ingame/outgame like they did in the past, is what is annoying. It's like if in a tabletop you suddenly started as a GM to change everything about the base canon and the sourcebook on a whim because you are not happy with it, and on the other hand never ever acknowledging what your players do.
I can perfectly understand that they do not have the means nor the will to continue stuff like Arek Jalaan - that was after all mostly a side hobby for a few GMs - for so few RPers. We dealt with a lack of lore events (even news) constantly at various times past TEA, and I was not so much of a live event person anyway. Having experienced what it is to have a game company investing its time into the interaction between players, RPers and their universe, RPers tend to feel self entitled to that kind of thing when it was actually a privilege. But for CCP to continue mingling with PF like they do, is highly irritating. Make the world change and evolve after historical events, yes. Change basic generalities, no. Just no.
On another note though, pastures may be well greener on other mediums like tabletops and some other games, but in terms of MMO, it's pretty void. I have yet to see another (non private, haven't tried any of those) MMO where I can find a lasting, mature and decent RP community like eve one. Mh, maybe TSW or SWG for a handful of micro mature communities, but not that much.
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That isn't somehow a "CCP trait" though, it is literally what any other MMO publisher does. And, while slow about it at least they do respond sometimes to player reaction. Witness the unTonying of some of their plotlines in the last year.
My point remains, if you want things to change you have to actualy convince them to do so. Build a larger RP scene and go do things in EVE. Get a RP CSM member elected. There are any number of people who do not post on backstage or the IGS who would likely love story and lore improvements but they languish in nonRP organizations for want of anyone decent to join up with. When I ran SHIN me and Havo were the only "actual RPers" in the alliance but all of the other people were on board with the RP ideals we were aiming for. There are ways to get people interested in these things but it takes work.
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It's true about all other MMO's as well: Of course they respond to the players at one point or the other. It's nothing that only CCP does. It's an economic law that companies have to respond to the wishes of customers.
And really, the RP community in EVE was larger and more active 5 years ago, it's not like CCP did work to keep that community prospering. Of course, to be fair, back then or now doesn't matter that much, the RPers are a slice of the community that is quite irrelevant for the decisions CCP is making.
And even if the RPers could do more: That doesn't mean that CCP isn't failing to provide. One and the other can be true quite independently from one another.
Also, if everything was so peachy with your alliance, why did you leave?
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That isn't somehow a "CCP trait" though, it is literally what any other MMO publisher does. And, while slow about it at least they do respond sometimes to player reaction. Witness the unTonying of some of their plotlines in the last year.
Well yes, for a moment we all held incredibly high hopes when Falcon, Eterne and others started to move the story forward again and showed a willing interest in cleaning up the mess brought up by that poor TonyG that the RP community got fond of beating again and again and again like a dead horse. While we eventually agreed or not on how it was then done, how we criticize it positively or negatively (I am part of the people that didn't really like what they did either, just felt like they were falling into the same traps than TonyG did), it was rather incredible to have again a GM team willing to step into the track of Arek Jalan and eventually bringing something closer to Aurora past events than anything we had before, with interactable dev faction contacts and characters (one of the most awesome ideas ever), new pieces of news, and a world put in motion again. And I almost forgot the eve wiki too. It was awesome for the lore. But very vulnerable to retcon unfortunately...
Unfortunately, it didn't last. Not that i'm complaining much since I didn't like what they did, but at least it breathed life again into a moribund RP scenery. So, to their credits, they tried to revive the golden age that we had before TEA, which was already fanning when I started playing just after the collapse of Aurora.
My point remains, if you want things to change you have to actualy convince them to do so. Build a larger RP scene and go do things in EVE. Get a RP CSM member elected. There are any number of people who do not post on backstage or the IGS who would likely love story and lore improvements but they languish in nonRP organizations for want of anyone decent to join up with. When I ran SHIN me and Havo were the only "actual RPers" in the alliance but all of the other people were on board with the RP ideals we were aiming for. There are ways to get people interested in these things but it takes work.
Well yes, good luck with that then. I really mean it.
I have already had the time to contemplate all the effort I did myself over the years aiming for the same purpose. Trying to gather a frail or non existing local RP community for the first years, trying to help building CVA and what happened in Providence, and then being very happy to see Hardin, Jade and a few other RPers being elected in the very first CSMs. It sure gave the RP scene an overinflated importance compared to what it really was in reality. CCP have always cared a lot more than they could have about their RP community, especially considering its size. Maybe because they were just happy to see that the universe they cared about and its lore were also strongly appreciated by some players, with a few of them important figures of Eve like Istvaan, Graelyn, Hardin, Jade, etc. Or maybe my jaded side is just telling me that if it worked before it was just because some VIP RPers had a certain influence in CCP matters, like some new figures today have, especially through the CSM or hired players.
It was the reflect of that time, but now the big figures and the mainstream has changed. It was already hard to have a voice in the past, but now... lol. The people working for CCP that were really into the lore have for most of them left or given up.
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There will be neither recognition nor reward from the storyline team, for player driven actions for at least 6 months.
After that, we'll see.
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he did say that he was interested in [...] continuing the “empires losing their grip” theme that was reiterated with last year's Eve Origins and Rubicon trailers.
More of this bullshit?
(http://i.imgur.com/nvHCfC8.gif?1)
Way to shoot yourself in the foot and alienate the vast majority of the people who care about the lore, CCP.
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he did say that he was interested in [...] continuing the “empires losing their grip” theme that was reiterated with last year's Eve Origins and Rubicon trailers.
More of this bullshit?
(http://i.imgur.com/nvHCfC8.gif?1)
Way to shoot yourself in the foot and alienate the vast majority of the people who care about the lore, CCP.
But lore is good to explain why some of us don't want to hang out in Empire space no more. Like Elmund never liking how Republic handled Skarkon and some of the things he saw in the RMS and in lowsec settlements and thought, gee, screw those guys man, I'm not flying their flags.
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That's fine. There's plenty of reasons not to work for the Big4/CONCORD. "They are made to look like chumps because they can't control the one major force they DO have leashed six ways to Sunday" should not be one of them.
The existential threat of Rogue Drones invading - as described in earlier Chronicles, let alone stuff like the Code Aria report - felt to me to be a much more natural method of playing the 'loosing control' arc.
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But why the 'losing control' arc, in the first place? The thing is that CCP has a burr up their arse called, and thankyou Graelyn, NULLSEC FUCKSTICKING. And I really don't want much part of it.
So, it seems, they're going the route of squeezing out Empire space altogether. This change in policy regarding Lore certainly seems to corroborate this and... I don't know, maybe Eve just isn't the game for me anymore?
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But why the 'losing control' arc, in the first place? The thing is that CCP has a burr up their arse called, and thankyou Graelyn, NULLSEC FUCKSTICKING. And I really don't want much part of it.
So, it seems, they're going the route of squeezing out Empire space altogether. This change in policy regarding Lore certainly seems to corroborate this and... I don't know, maybe Eve just isn't the game for me anymore?
New plan. All the RPers join together into a nullsec coalition - pretend it's a CONCORD thing.
Fuck off the storyline in two ways.
Oh wait, egos. 8)