Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Sofia Roseburn on 13 Nov 2013, 03:27
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An interesting article on CCP's stance towards people that claim to be the victim (http://kotaku.com/a-reminder-to-not-feed-the-internet-trolls-1463378019)
Nice little insight into the frustration that moderating a community brings. I've certainly experienced the dilemma myself in the past.
IMO we should be applauding CCP for actually understanding that conversation is a 2 way action and that human interaction on the internet is, the majority of the time, actually pretty shitty. Defining their policies around that principle rather than establishing a hand hold culture where people are put on thrones (i.e. expecting a certain level of street smarts when interacting with others) is the way that all MMO customer service models should be going; treating the subscriber like a human being, and expecting them to act like one, which includes accepting the consequences of your actions.
Props to them for trying to break the princess complex mould that most MMO GM pools seem to gravitate towards.
Of course, this doesn't change the schizophrenic moderation in EVE, but it's a nice insight into the attitude towards the community as a whole.
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George4th didn't have to proudly announce that she's a woman in RL, and Happy2Live wasn't forced to tell IWillHurtYou that they're gay... The question that gets asked most by support teams when complaints about the retaliation come through is, "Why did you feel the need to tell people that?"
Why DID you feel the need to tell people that?
Yeah, I mean, this is totally a tough dilemma. It is pretty gross and provoking when you find out someone is a woman, or a gay. If they're not going to hide that shit they just have to expect to be abused, whatchagonnado?
The only alternative is asking people not to be juvenile little shits, and that's what Orwell warned us about!
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Clearly said information is required by the player base in order to establish whether they are a reasonable human being. After all, in this day and age full API checks just aren't enough.
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Probably good advice, though it's a bit like punishing women for being assaulted because they "forgot" to hide themselves...
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Except where it's not like that at all.
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Probably good advice, though it's a bit like punishing women for being assaulted because they "forgot" to hide themselves...
Look at it this way.
On the Internet, everything about us is shrouded behind anonymity from the very start. Everything anyone can know about you comes from information you added since that original anonymity. Where as in real life, it's hard not to notice 99% of women are women. Their starting point is being a woman (and not an anonymous unit of Person like they would be on the Internet), and from there they have the option to hide their gender/sex. It's not, like on the internet, hidden by default and requires people to divulge such information for it to be known.
So it's a completely different starting position.
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As far as I'm concerned, we're just playing characters here. Hence the "role" in roleplaying. I assume that hardcore bigots are just characters played as hardcore bigots, not actually being played by hardcore bigots. I also assume that a female character is a female character, not someone exclusively played by a female. I mean, nobody actually thinks I'm a jetsetting, womanizing cleric IRL, I hope.
That said... why would someone feel the need to tell someone else that they're IRL a woman? I can think of more than a dozen scenarios off the top of my head where that might be important. Also, I can see a reason why you might want to tell someone you're gay. I'm not gay, and I've had reasons to tell certain people that I'm gay.
To that effect, I kind of like it when people say things like that. When someone speaks up and starts railing about the IRL gays, Jews, cable repairmen, whatever, I know to automatically drop them on ignore. I have no reason to RP or even associate with complete asshats. Therefore, people who point out IRL facts and attract trolls and likely members of the BNP who've learned to use a computer are providing a valuable service to the community.
More of that!
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Elizabeth Wyand's is an atrocious point of view and as far as I'm concerned is casting blame on victims of internet shittery. It is 100% no one's fault except the people acting shitty.
While in an objective sense it is likely giving less information might be useful in some circumstances, the approach we should aspire towards should be:
"abusive conduct will be met and dealt with harshly"
not "dont be a victim"
It's that kind of shit attitude that blames all sorts of victims for 'asking for it'
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'Do not feed the internet trolls' reads to me as being in the same family of issues as 'you asked for it' / 'you shouldn't have done x because y did z to you for it', etc.
People don't have to give out information about themselves. You can exist in a complete mask of anonymity (lurking), and effectively be invisible. But what do you do when you cannot even give out the most nondescript, generalist information? Why should a person of good mind be on the defensive when the slightest contribution to conversation can unexpectedly provoke an attack from other parties?
If I'm in a conversation with a foreigner, say the discussion turns towards nationalities and countries. I mention living as a natural born American, and without warning they go off on me for that. I've done nothing wrong but contribute to conversation, ignorant of the other party's position. Perhaps it is a group conversation and someone entirely unrelated interjects and does an attack. Once again I've done nothing wrong in the conversation, but I am being told to 'mind what I say' because a person can attack me for it.
Preempting an attack by telling the defender 'look, just dont even bother' smacks of abuse to me in the worst ways. It's tantamount to living with someone who flies into a rage at the slightest provocation. 'Honey just dont do (actions here) and we'll be fine', oh look the defender is being blamed when the problem person flies into a rage.
edit ; ~_~
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Wat. lol.
I think it is hard to describe the mindset of EVE.
A woman saying she's a woman or whatever doesn't incite instant abuse.
*whacks a few people back with a lead pipe as she continues*
It's what the person does AFTER they say that, that will eventually cause something to happen. I've never gotten a faceful of anything - since 2009 - for anyone knowing that fact. Cause I generally pull my weight and play the fucking game. As long as people are doing that in the background or the foreground most people don't give a fuck.
Every MMO is the same in that -- every player who decides they find someone else fucking annoying will use every piece of ammo they can on the person. The logic stands stronger in EVE because this game is not touted as being full of sweet kind people - we are flat out ADVERTISED as being nineteen notches higher on the asshole scale as every other game in existence and to be honest the only people who know it isn't ACTUALLY true is us. In private. I remember making friends with someone who was an insanely raving asshole in public channels that when I mentioed his name people went "Who.. HIM?!" It's about remembering what damned game you're playing.
There will always be interplayer issues and they'll base it on RL shit. EVE players generally TRY to keep RL out of it but in the dynamics of corporations or groups iformation can and does leak out, and also in those same dynamics, people suddenly decide they hate the fucking shit out of eachother.
None of that is news.
And to add: as much as people may know about me, no one knows me.
Cept maybe Mirage. ;)
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(Edit: responding to Silas, for the record)
That wasn't how I read it.
On the internet, yes, you should damn well expect anything you say or do to be used against you by someone at some point with intent to cause harm. That isn't mutually exclusive from the fair expectation that, where rules apply, there are consequences for people who do so.
The key part being "where rules apply", since CCP is anything but consistent with its enforcement of the harassment and abuse parts of the EULA/TOS. It's not actually stated anywhere that the only place they officially will come down on people like a sack of bricks are channels that users are forced to use, like local, NPC corp, militia, etc., but until recently, users were generally told to handle their own issues themselves in channels that were owned/operated by players, including corp and alliance channels.
It's fair to expect that (within reason) players should handle this kind of problem themselves when it's happening in channels that are owned and run by players. On the other hand, it's also fair to expect that there are lines that shouldn't be crossed in any channel regardless of who owns it. Especially ones explicitly mentioned in the EULA/TOS.
What I see is that some players disagree with CCP on where that line should lie, and believe appropriate procedure is that they should go to CCP to solve all of their problems rather than applying solutions through other players when they exist.
None of this is a free ticket to troll or to sling homophobic or racist slurs at people. Claiming someone just needs a thicker skin or to HTFU doesn't excuse your behavior in the slightest. You still chose to be a shitbag. Maybe they gave you the ammunition. But you still chose to use it.
What it is is a reminder that there are some things people can reasonably expect CCP to take action on, and others that they need to learn to handle (or prevent) themselves.
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CCP being consistent with their EULA/TOS ? What ?
Probably good advice, though it's a bit like punishing women for being assaulted because they "forgot" to hide themselves...
Look at it this way.
On the Internet, everything about us is shrouded behind anonymity from the very start. Everything anyone can know about you comes from information you added since that original anonymity. Where as in real life, it's hard not to notice 99% of women are women. Their starting point is being a woman (and not an anonymous unit of Person like they would be on the Internet), and from there they have the option to hide their gender/sex. It's not, like on the internet, hidden by default and requires people to divulge such information for it to be known.
So it's a completely different starting position.
Maybe it was not the best analogy, though I can't understand why you all chose to see what's different instead of looking to see what is my point.
Very well, let's drop the analogies. I'm just saying that it's purely blaming the victim syndrome. Even if the victim did something stupid - which is why this article is good advice, "why telling it in the first place ?" - there can't be, just can't be, any excuse to say "the victim deserved it". Darwin awards are fun, but I can't accept that as a true excuse either.
Not that's what the CCP GM says here, mind you, but it reads something really close to it for me. Which is typically Eve-trite, and rather disgusting. To refer to Jade Constantine last post here on backstage, the community has changed, and not in a good way. This is one of the facets I grew to dislike more and more over years, since it existed a lot less when I started, and I bet it wasn't even here at the beginning. To see that even CCP employees reason the same way is no surprise since they continuously encourage it, though it is no less obnoxious.
Like Silas said, anyway.
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George4th didn't have to proudly announce that she's a woman in RL, and Happy2Live wasn't forced to tell IWillHurtYou that they're gay... The question that gets asked most by support teams when complaints about the retaliation come through is, "Why did you feel the need to tell people that?"
Why DID you feel the need to tell people that?
Yeah, I mean, this is totally a tough dilemma. It is pretty gross and provoking when you find out someone is a woman, or a gay. If they're not going to hide that shit they just have to expect to be abused, whatchagonnado?
The only alternative is asking people not to be juvenile little shits, and that's what Orwell warned us about!
+eleventy.
Tusslin' over the stupid shit people do is fair game, as far as I'm concerned.
Tusslin' over the things they are much less so.
Having to treat being part of, you know, that "other" half of the population, as a shameful secret and potential avenue of a legitimate attack in case it's "divulged" is just plain bullshit.
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(http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/1966y2findcaojpg/ku-medium.jpg)
The full blogpost is a bit less like that, more about using common sense about who you choose to share your stuff with. That article snippet however comes of exactly like the picture above.
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Reads a lot like slut-shaming to me.
Admit it, Wyand. You're victim-blaming and you refused to do your fucking job.
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Actually, I'm not too sure. See, the problem with victim-blaming is presuming the precondition exists and that some day someone will take advantage of it. Sure humans are arseholes, but victim-blaming presumes that doing whatever the victim is doing will innevitably lead to an attacker attacking, when it's completley the attackers fault (and a bit of society values enabling them, let's not forget)
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, denizens of the ether, but real life is nothing like teh interwebs. The internet is not a good representation of humanity - the internet is the worst... and rarely the best.
I'm very open about who I am in RL. I know that humanity isn't as bad as my paranoia tends to jump at. However, even I will watch what I give on the internet. That shits scary. Some people troll and harrass people to fucking death on here.
It's a tough line. I don't believe security and privacy can be protected or should be, on the web. Its openess and transparency is what makes it so amazing. But, we're still in the post-proto days. The internet is still wild and I for one, don't trust it. :psyccp:
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its why there's only 1 pic in the "show yourself" thread that's me, lol. I could be anyone in that out-of-focus pic, lol.
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See, good bloody point Louella!
I don't mind the internet knowing what I look like, because I'm fucking gorgeous and fabulous looking. I don't have my address or phone number online, but if you fancied coming to Edinburgh to try and find me, there'd be a lot of people between me and you, internet.
I have no doubt some elements of the internet are resourceful enough to eventually locate me, but the cost of those resources will never be met once they've found out how epic I am in the flesh. Hell, they might even think it was worth it to come find me. :oops:
Still no phone number or address being posted. Don't trust teh interwebs :P
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Still no phone number or address being posted. Don't trust teh interwebs :P
I have no doubt that I've pissed some people off, but enough to try to track me down? I doubt it.
In any case, trying to come after someone is relatively foolish - they're on their home ground, with lots of potential allies - and, oh, right, it's illegal. I figure that it's more likely that you'll get hit by lightning than that someone will take the trouble.
That said, while I generally loathe people boasting about how they would wipe the floor with anyone, I am generally of the build and disposition to have less to fear from aggression. So perhaps my lack of worry is a result of my general situation.
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Still no phone number or address being posted. Don't trust teh interwebs :P
I have no doubt that I've pissed some people off, but enough to try to track me down? I doubt it.
In any case, trying to come after someone is relatively foolish - they're on their home ground, with lots of potential allies - and, oh, right, it's illegal. I figure that it's more likely that you'll get hit by lightning than that someone will take the trouble.
That said, while I generally loathe people boasting about how they would wipe the floor with anyone, I am generally of the build and disposition to have less to fear from aggression. So perhaps my lack of worry is a result of my general situation.
For better or worse, we live in a world these days where physical disposition matters much less than a litigious person or someone with a weapon.
If more kids in my city weren't so scared to get an ass beating now and then we wouldn't have so many dead teenagers from shootings.
Off topic though, the OP by CCP was victim-blaming by 10 miles.
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Still no phone number or address being posted. Don't trust teh interwebs :P
I have no doubt that I've pissed some people off, but enough to try to track me down? I doubt it.
In any case, trying to come after someone is relatively foolish - they're on their home ground, with lots of potential allies - and, oh, right, it's illegal. I figure that it's more likely that you'll get hit by lightning than that someone will take the trouble.
That said, while I generally loathe people boasting about how they would wipe the floor with anyone, I am generally of the build and disposition to have less to fear from aggression. So perhaps my lack of worry is a result of my general situation.
For better or worse, we live in a world these days where physical disposition matters much less than a litigious person or someone with a weapon.
If more kids in my city weren't so scared to get an ass beating now and then we wouldn't have so many dead teenagers from shootings.
Off topic though, the OP by CCP was victim-blaming by 10 miles.
I know I'm supposed to worry about it. I just don't.
I think I'm probably pretty traceable - and, in context, I'd note that people are generally pretty open about such things. People have told me where they live without a second thought, and without me asking. So while I think that CCP is victim-blaming, some victims are less than wise. I don't like saying things like that, but, for example, although I have the right not to be scammed, I still will be if I reply to those nice nigerian princes so desperate for a bank account to transfer funds into.
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The selective quoting of the snippet does sensationalise the actual content of the blog post. At the end of the day, you dictate what information about yourself is revealed online, and control what people can find out about you, it's your responsibility in that regard.
That doesn't justify the actions of some people (which at no point did the article attempt to do) who use that information for abuse, but it does ask a very valid question of "What did you expect?" While we'd love to put our fingers in our ears, and close our eyes and "la la la" at the top of our voices, the truth is the internet is a barren waste of utterly degenerate shit and pond scum and those people exist to merely piss on your lawn, because they can.
While people would rather wish they didn't exist, and that we could talk freely on the internet without repercussion, the blog serves as a bleak reminder that they do, and that we all must tread softly and carry a big gun. Yes it sucks, but the first step to overcoming a problem is admitting it exists.
Pity that a lot of people that believe people should be free to say what they like about themselves without being afraid of trolls are often the same people who kick up a fuss when governments encourage the police to prosecute over internet trolling.
Furthermore, any GM has to work to company guidelines, rules and restrictions. Telling someone they didn't do their job is a very strange accusation when in fact what you expected them to do instead would be them operating outside of their parameters.
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Furthermore, any GM has to work to company guidelines, rules and restrictions. Telling someone they didn't do their job is a very strange accusation when in fact what you expected them to do instead would be them operating outside of their parameters.
I know, right?
I have to admit I am left wondering how many of the people posting in this thread actually bothered to read the entire original blogpost/article (either here (http://inqorporeal.com/2013/11/11/miranda/) on her website, or here (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/ElizabethWyand/20131111/204521/Miranda.php) on gamasutra), and not just the emasculated version Kotaku portrayed it as.
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I don't have the time to parse every source for every journalistic article I stumble upon, unfortunately. I mostly reacted to what Kotaku wrote, and now having read it, apparently they hurt the original article more than they actually help it.