Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Synthia on 24 Aug 2013, 09:23
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Facts:
1. The Elder Fleet invaded Amarr space, including some of the capital systems - Kor-Azor Prime, Sarum Prime for example, where some of the most heavily populated worlds in the Amarr Empire are.
2. The Elder Fleet used Insorum bombs to bombard those heavily populated planets.
3. The source of the Insorum was Otro Gariushi's secret facility.
4. The Elder Fleet was constructed in the Thukker Tribe's territory, with their help, and with Gallente Federation money, intended for the Republic.
5. The Thukker Tribe is now a part of Shakor's Republic.
6. Shakor has full knowledge of all these facts.
Now then, this means, that the claim that "the Elder fleet is not the Republic, and so the Republic has no responsibility" has no validity. By incorporating the Thukker Tribe into Shakor's Republic, responsibility for the Elder Fleet and its actions is now Shakor's.
That's big enough in itself, but wasn't what I was going to write about.
What I was going to write about was this: The nature of Insorum as a bioweapon.
Evelopedia states: " an extremely dangerous genetic toxin for those in otherwise good health"
Given that not all slaves are treated with Vitoc, and that commoners are not treated with Vitoc, then it means that a substantial proportion of the planet populations would have suffered the ill-effects of the Insorum bioweapon. Given the high populations of the affected worlds, then it means casualty figures would have been in the billions.
Making the Republic (due to Shakor's incorporation of the Thukkers) responsible for the deaths of billions through the use of orbital bioweaponry, and the Federation complicit in this action. Also an inconvenience for the Caldari, specifically Ishukone.
The Empyrean age novel glosses over this, suggesting either a retcon, or unwillingness to deal with this part of the PF, as it makes the actions of the "heroes" significantly tainted - killing billions in an ethnic cleansing bombardment, to rescue a handful of slave Minmatars.
It means that Gallente and Minmatar characters either have to be ignorant of these facts, or to be massive xenophobic hypocrites.
Thoughts ?
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We never had any news reports on the fallout of Insorum, or any on the Elders after the attack. So it becomes mostly a matter of players interpretation.
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One does not ask questions about Tony G PF. :bear:
Best close those eyes and let the good people at CCP and their slow retcons continue to work their way through the system.
The purging must continue.
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Best close those eyes and let the good people at CCP and their slow retcons continue to work their way through the system.
It's a pretty big retcon.
Either the Minmatar perpetrated the biggest genocide in the entire history of new eden, bankrolled by the Gallente, and with the backing of one of the Caldari corporations, or they did not.
LOL AMARR
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Best close those eyes and let the good people at CCP and their slow retcons continue to work their way through the system.
It's a pretty big retcon.
Either the Minmatar perpetrated the biggest genocide in the entire history of new eden, bankrolled by the Gallente, and with the backing of one of the Caldari corporations, or they did not.
LOL AMARR
This assumes a few things.
The Minmatar gives a damn: not likely, but that don't change anything in regards to them sheltering/being the people doing it.
The Caldari knew this would happen when their involvement took place. Given that this tech was not passed over with the precise knowledge of what the Matari intended to do, (Here you go here is your product now plz go kill a few billion Amarr, k tnx bye) but that is a bit like saying the iron-monger is not to blame his costumer mowed down a few hundred people with the weapons and ammo he provided.
Ishukone never intended to back such an endeavor in any way shape or form.
The Federation knew anything about where the money they gave to the Republic actually went. They didn't. They handed it over with the express intention of getting it to building Republic infrastructure and bettering the conditions in the Republic. Holding the Fed responsible is like holding the woman who got robbed blind responsible for the fact that what was originally her money, was used to buy the gun and ammo that killed a few hundred people. That logic don't fit anywhere.
The Fed never intended to pay for this and if the Elders/Republic government asked the Fed to provide them money for a huge fleet to attack CONCORD/The Amarr with they would have laughed in their faces, told them no, and asked them to fuck off. As it was the Republic/Elders asked for money to help fix their infrastructure and better the civilian condition etc. and the Fed agreed to do so. Sucks for them they were lied to.
In short, the only really guilty party here are the perpetrators of the attack and everyone else simply got screwed in some way, so even if it's somehow revealed that the Elder fleet ended a few billion Amarr (something tells me if this would be considered canon we would have been told a few years ago, what with this completely alienating the Minmatar and painting the Elders as a collection of genocidal hypocrites of the highest order and all) the Ishukone corp/Fed government would not be held responsible in any conceivable way.
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in the empyrean age book, the Ishukone AI that Otro Gariushi had making Insorum, was instructed, by Gariushi, to manufacture not just Insorum, but gas dispersal systems, injectors, shells of every projectile calibre, to assist in Shakor's invasion. Shakor did not have to have the Insorum fitted to anything, the Ishukone drones provided all the delivery systems necessary, and had full knowledge that the invasion was what was being planned.
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Yep.
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even if it's somehow revealed that the Elder fleet ended a few billion Amarr (something tells me if this would be considered canon we would have been told a few years ago
This is pretty much the important part. The time around the Empyrean Age Release was pretty thorough with the In-Game News so if side effects to this degree were caused, it would have been noted at the time. Something tells me that TonyG either simply forgot that Insorum has those side effects on the Healthy or simply ignored the fact (Super Advanced Insorum™, now 100% Side Effect Free!)
The whole Insorum Attack in the Empyrean Age Book though made little sense. Bomb a Planet with this stuff to instantly free the slaves of Vitoc Addiction and the Slaves... immediately revolt en masse and go on a killing spree?
Would have made a hell of a lot more sense for the Insorum to be held somewhere safe, fleet goes in to rescue as many as they can with Vitoc on Board to ease any withdrawal symptoms (Much easier to get a hold of) while they get the rescued people out to a safe location to use the Insorum in a controlled manner.
I could be misremembering the book though, it's been a few years since I read it.
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Amarr Certified News, Ministry of Internal Order.
It's possible, that they covered things up. Unlikely that it would be a perfect coverup, but who can tell ?
There was also wreckage from the space battles falling on the planet, and there was a substantial conventional bombardment too. Immediate casualties from that, and the clearup operations would add to the casualty figures, and obscure the cause of death for many as well.
Super Insorum, or a huge oversight, neither is particularly good. One is a colossal Mary Sue, like firing a full submarine load of ICBM and only the Bad Dudes get killed. The other means PF might as well not exist - well, the whole Elders thing, where they are one of the most important bits of Minmatar culture, but have not been mentioned to any extent beforehand? vOv
And yeah, killing sprees, killing millions of non-matari slaves, and poor commoners. vOv
The whole thing was a farce.
The bit when the Elder fleet lifted the Starkmanir from Mandate space, was OK. That made sense. The attacks on the Throne worlds... less so.
Like, during D-Day, having the Airborne forces land on Berlin, and being amazed when it doesn't work.
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Would have made a hell of a lot more sense for the Insorum to be held somewhere safe, fleet goes in to rescue as many as they can with Vitoc on Board to ease any withdrawal symptoms (Much easier to get a hold of) while they get the rescued people out to a safe location to use the Insorum in a controlled manner.
Vitoc is still not easy to get a hold of. The Vitoxin infection/virus thing mutates itself frequently and regularly, and older batches of Vitoc will not work after each mutation. The scientists or whoever responsible for managing the Vitoc method in the Empire update the Vitoc given to Holders in preparation for (or reaction to) the latest mutation.
This is why Vitoc is such a problem. It's not simply an infection-drug dependency. It depends on an entire system of scientists and logistics to maintain the latest effective supply of the drug. This is why Minmatar slaves can't simply grab a stock of Vitoc and run off with it to live out their lives in freedom. They need to keep getting the most updated version of Vitoc from the only source that produces it - the Empire.
Granted, you could always raid the transports that deliver it, but that requires a lot of effort/planning/risk, and it must be done every single time the virus mutates and within a certain time limit before the symptoms reappear.
TL;DR
Vitoxin mutates constantly, requires constantly up-to-date Vitoc.
It's DRM for addicts.
The latest Vitoc drug resembles a virus in many ways, and no cure has yet been found for it. This is mainly due to the erratic nature of the drug, which constantly changes its appearance and behavior on a regular basis. These changes seem to be either controlled, or at least predicted by the Amarr, as they always seem to have the right antidote for their own use out in time before the toxin changes again.
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vitoc_method
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The whole Insorum Attack in the Empyrean Age Book though made little sense. Bomb a Planet with this stuff to instantly free the slaves of Vitoc Addiction and the Slaves... immediately revolt en masse and go on a killing spree?
There were some news articles to this effect in the aftermath of Empyrean Age, describing roving mobs of freed slaves simply carving a path wherever they went. Articles later on (i.e., after the Elder Fleet had been Jamyl'd and the immediate crisis was over) described these mobs being "mopped up" by Amarr planetside forces using atmospheric fighter-bombers.
In fairness to the Elder fleet, this was probably a deliberate thing. Having large mobs of angry people roving around your planet (and likely around your major infrastructure points) would present a nasty choice for any remaining ground forces (try to counter the Republic's landing forces, or handle the huge mobs intent on blood?) which would almost certainly hinder further surface-to-orbit defense efforts. Of course huge numbers of these mobs would be killed even in the event of a successful invasion, but the Elders may have viewed this as a "some must die so the rest can be freed" kind of thing.
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Honestly, I always assumed that the Elders used Insorum mainly as a bioweapon on Mekhios. The Sarumites had largely killed off their slaves in advance, so that they wouldn't have to deal with them when the the Elder forces hit. Why would the Elders bombard Mekhios with Insorum, if it's no good if there are no slaves to free of Vitoc addiction, if it's not also a potent toxin?
Of course I also assumed that the Amarr, or at least the Sarumites were prepared for ABC defense. But yes, if you didn't kill of the slaves you'd have fight on two fronts if you don't have ABC defense for the slaves as well.
Honestly, I think the Vitoxin/Vitoc system is wickedly ingenious and Insorum is just as wicked and ingenious a counter.
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They key assumption here is that Insorum used was a (lethal) bioweapon to non-Vitoc-addicts. I think that assumption is incorrect.
Even if the Minmatar were willing to accept billions in Amarr losses, they would also need to accept the losses of all slaves which were not Vitoc addicts. Which would in turn mean that the proportion of the slave population that uses Vitoc was above 50%, which seems rather steep to me in itself. Even then, would they be able to sell a 30% loss to their own bioweapons for the potential rescue of 70%, for example?
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They key assumption here is that Insorum used was a (lethal) bioweapon to non-Vitoc-addicts. I think that assumption is incorrect.
Even if the Minmatar were willing to accept billions in Amarr losses, they would also need to accept the losses of all slaves which were not Vitoc addicts. Which would in turn mean that the proportion of the slave population that uses Vitoc was above 50%, which seems rather steep to me in itself. Even then, would they be able to sell a 30% loss to their own bioweapons for the potential rescue of 70%, for example?
There was a story a while back, in which a Minmatar force raided a slave facility in the Bleak Lands, and after checking the ethnicities of the slaves, forced all the non-Minmatar slaves back into the cells before leaving.
So, there's precedent, I believe, for Minmatar forces to simply not care about the fate of non-Minmatar slaves.
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Ahjup, also there's the point, still, that Insourum bomabardments of Mekhios commenced, even after "Following the news of the massed Minmatar-Thukker task force invading Amarr sovereign territory, the planet 'Mekhios' has become the scene for mass public executions as Amarrian ground forces attempt to remove the threat of rebellious slaves before they are exposed to Insorum by the invading forces."
The majority of slaves was already killed when the the Elders arrived. What for the waste of all the good Insorum, then? Wouldn't it be used with more effect elsewhere, if it wasn't also a bio-weapon, but just a cure for Vitoxin?
No, it seems that the Elders were prepared to kill off a certain percentage of their Matari brethren (and non-Matari slaves anyway). That's collateral damage and the fault of the Amarr, anyway.
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Well, it's either a lack of fact-checking, or a deliberate change.
Both have the result of denying players of a substantial element of history to RP with/about.
Federation players are denied the opportunity to have serious doubts about foreign policy (bankrolling a genocide fleet)
Caldari players are denied the opportunity to have doubts about Otro Gariushi and Ishukone (portrayed as a saint by the novels, yet designed a genocide weapon system)
Minmatar players are denied the opportunity to ask questions such as "how much is too much", and "Have we become the monsters?"
Amarr players are denied the opportunity to argue about appeasement of monsters, crushing the terrorists, etc. etc.
So. vOv.
The Elder Fleet actions now being the Republic's responsibility is something though. Undeniably it's all on Shakor's head now.
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The bit when the Elder fleet lifted the Starkmanir from Mandate space, was OK. That made sense. The attacks on the Throne worlds... less so.
Like, during D-Day, having the Airborne forces land on Berlin, and being amazed when it doesn't work.
Uh, well lifting the whole Starkmanir survivors in less than a day before Amarrian counter attack ? Sounds even more stretched to me than the rest.
- How do they know who is a Starkmanir ? I can already see the Elders/thukkers showing up, shooting the few planetary defenses and stuff, and then politely asking "Who is Starkmanir there ?"
- Supposing than they know precisely how to tell who is Starkmanir, how the hell do you uplift billions of scattered Starkmanir all across Halturzan in less than a day ? It took them a lot of hours to do that at Seylin with barely 10% of the population of a... small colonial planetoid ? O_o
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The bit when the Elder fleet lifted the Starkmanir from Mandate space, was OK. That made sense. The attacks on the Throne worlds... less so.
Like, during D-Day, having the Airborne forces land on Berlin, and being amazed when it doesn't work.
Uh, well lifting the whole Starkmanir survivors in less than a day before Amarrian counter attack ? Sounds even more stretched to me than the rest.
- How do they know who is a Starkmanir ? I can already see the Elders/thukkers showing up, shooting the few planetary defenses and stuff, and then politely asking "Who is Starkmanir there ?"
- Supposing than they know precisely how to tell who is Starkmanir, how the hell do you uplift billions of scattered Starkmanir all across Halturzan in less than a day ? It took them a lot of hours to do that at Seylin with barely 10% of the population of a... small colonial planetoid ? O_o
I was more meaning, that a massive incursion into Ammatar space, a lightning raid to retrieve Starkmanir populations, is something that seems reasonable, and with a fair chance of success. And without too much in the way of political consequence.
Throwing things at the Throne worlds, is a gesture of foolishness, that only wasted the forces sent. Much like Colelie though, I suppose. :bash:
It's like, you see a wasp's nest in the garden, next to your apple tree. You've already picked the apples, but then you go and poke the wasp's nest. WHY!?!?
The Ammatar Fleet at the time, was not part of the Imperial Navy, and would not have had quite the same support.
The Who is Starkmanir thing, seems to have been dealt with, because Sisters of EVE elements had identified them all some weeks/months beforehand.
Dunno about numbers lifted though, I guess there was a lot of shuttles on the task force the Elders sent.
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Caldari players are denied the opportunity to have doubts about Otro Gariushi and Ishukone (portrayed as a saint by the novels, yet designed a genocide weapon system)
Why are weapons of mass destruction always right away labeled as 'genocidal'? The weapons aren't made to kill a specific race or ethnicity. <,<
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They key assumption here is that Insorum used was a (lethal) bioweapon to non-Vitoc-addicts. I think that assumption is incorrect.
From the Insorum item description:
"Insorum (Insorzapine bisulfate) is a reactive mutagen binder, a compound whose active chemical responds dynamically to mutagens in the body. This gives it tremendous healing properties for those afflicted with specific diseases, but, it is believed, also makes it an extremely dangerous genetic toxin for those in otherwise good health."
I believe this was also mentioned in a couple of news articles, but unfortunately CCP's new news archive is an utter mess, with articles seemingly out of order, untagged for any easy searching, or just plain missing.
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I'm quite sure it was in one of them, but yah, news articles are a mess and I can confirm that some went missing entirely.
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Let me start off by saying that anyone who thinks Otro Gariushi was a saint was not paying attention. Assume he was acting out of his own self-interest; building up a supply of weapons to deal with the Amarr Empire's greatest weakness does not mean he wanted to help the Minmatar, it means he wanted to have a leg up on the Amarr. Note that since TEA, the Amarr have still been in a better position than the Caldari generally, even after the Amarr suffered what must have been heavy losses in the Elder War.
Of course, no one actually knows where the Elder Fleet got its ships (though I suspect most major intelligence agencies have a very good guess at this point), and they don't necessarily know where the Insorum came from either. Note that a sample of Insorum was obtained during the Hnolku arc by Ushra'Khan, a radical Minmatar organization which had no love for Midular and advocated open warfare against the Amarr...who's to say they didn't provide that to the Elder Fleet and the weapons the Elders used were built in the same place their ships were made?
If Reppola is smart, he's already wiped out any evidence that Insorum was manufactured at scale by Ishukone. The Amarr will have a difficult time proving Ishukone's involvement, and the Amarr still need the Caldari as a bulwark against the Federation and Republic.
As far as the Federation's help, the question isn't why is the Amarr Empire pissed at them about the Elder Fleet, but why isn't the Federation more pissed at the Minmatar for blowing their "humanitarian aid" on a massive warfleet. Even if the Federation doesn't know that their specific funds went to fund it, they do know that they gave the Minmatar a fortune and evidently instead of spending trillions on building infrastructure the Minmatar evidently blew it all on a warfleet -- one which smashed CONCORD and paved the way for the greatest Gallente military defeat in a hundred years. If I was Gallente, I would be pretty pissed off about that.
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If nobody knows Ishukone made Insorum, then I've been doing it wrong this whole time.
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If nobody knows Ishukone made Insorum, then I've been doing it wrong this whole time.
I think everyone knows Ishukone made insorum -- but whether they made the insorum used on the Amarr worlds is something else entirely. And whether you can prove it is an even bigger issue. As I said, if Reppola was smart, he obliterated anything that could trace that back to Ishukone.
I am pretty sure that was never public knowledge, anyway. If it was, Otro's sister was even more stupid than I thought she was.
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If you read the book, Gariushi had Rogue Drones make the drug and only his seekrit sister knew about this. So technically Ishukone did not make it.
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How are players hypocrites in this when there's no way ICly to know what happened?
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As far as the Federation's help, the question isn't why is the Amarr Empire pissed at them about the Elder Fleet, but why isn't the Federation more pissed at the Minmatar for blowing their "humanitarian aid" on a massive warfleet. Even if the Federation doesn't know that their specific funds went to fund it, they do know that they gave the Minmatar a fortune and evidently instead of spending trillions on building infrastructure the Minmatar evidently blew it all on a warfleet -- one which smashed CONCORD and paved the way for the greatest Gallente military defeat in a hundred years. If I was Gallente, I would be pretty pissed off about that.
Hadn't seen it that way, but certainly is a very interesting turn on the issue. :)
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Regarding insorum.
Insorum (Insorzapine bisulfate) is a reactive mutagen binder, a compound whose active chemical responds dynamically to mutagens in the body. This gives it tremendous healing properties for those afflicted with specific diseases, but, it is believed, also makes it an extremely dangerous genetic toxin for those in otherwise good health.
the fact that it states 'is believed' is an initially telling sign... but continuing, I remember reading about an attack on a facility or planet by the EoM some time ago, in lore that is, where it is claimed that insorum was used... later news regarding the attack did say that it was an engineered variant of insorum that had proved fatal.
On Sarum prime, the leader told his paladins to not shoot down the gas canisters or other insorum dispersal methods, instead telling them to 'fill their lungs with [it]' ... there have yet to be news articles speaking of a huge number of house sarum paladins falling dead from insorum poisoning.
I think that it is safe to assume that the type of insorum created by VILAMO, was engineered specifically to attack and nullify Vitoxin, and that it has no real effect upon others.
after all, the Elders used it on the nefantar too, and not all of them would have been Vitoc dependent.
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TL:DR : While Insorum is believed to be fatal, the only reported fatalities came from an insorum variant used as a bio-weapon in the past.
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I don't think it is safe to assume anything at all.
It's just the whole plot that makes little sense. I have stopped scratching my head over inconsistencies with TEA.
It would be just to easy/convenient to make it harmless. Like TonyG-black-and-white-world convenient.
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I can't currently find the reference to the insorum variant attack in the past, but if i'm remembering correctly it's in the archived newsfeed...
still, let's look at the facts.
Insorum was used across several constellations, in an effort to remove the slave populations.
it was used on both planets and stations.
the attack with the variant bioweapon caused massive and almost immediate casualties.
not one report has surfaced of a planet or station where insorum-based poisoning occurred on a massive scale, or even on a limited scale.
This kind of news is something the Empire would surely have broadcast far and wide, considering the huge amount of bad press they got for using Vitoxin in the first place. Yet still, not a single report...
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As far as I can see, as there have been no reports of massive mutation and death caused by Insorum use in over 5 years, it is definitely safe to assume that there hasn't been massive mutation and death.
while it may seem 'too easy' to make it harmless, there were no definitive statements that claimed it definitely was fatal or even harmful to those not infected with Vitoxin. 'believed to be' does not equate to 'is'
As the only evidence we have to go on is the events of TEA, which are still canon, even if CCP are trying to negate any lasting effects of TonyG's work, the only conclusion that it is logical to come to, is that VILAMO saw the possible problem and, being a drone with purely logical reasoning, managed to nullify the potentially harmful aspects of insorum, creating a version that performed the specific task it was told to design it for.
It was apparent that VILAMO knew that it was to be used to negate Vitoxin, to be used on planets, stations and in armaments, (so it would effect ship crews as well), as it would therefore affect those who were not infected, and some of those would be slaves that were to be repatriated, it makes sense that VILAMO would, to ensure that those slaves did not die from the effects of their rescue, remove the potentially fatal aspect, in effect engineering a retrovirus that only sought out the Vitoxin, and would otherwise be harmless.
I just can't see how it could logically be stated that the insorum used on the planets and stations in question, Kor-Azor prime, Sarum prime, and the entire ammatar mandate included, would have been fatal to the uninfected, simply put, we'd have heard something... from both the Empire, and the Republic.
Consider how many voices would have been raised in either concern or victory, if the vast majority of nefantar suddenly started dropping dead after the repatriation, or if the entire amarrian population of two of the house core-worlds and many other planets and stations had done so?
is it an assumption? yes.
but one based on a massive lack of evidence to the contrary.
Those who would have been dead if you are right, are still alive.
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That's assuming that the lack of news comes from an IC logic rather than OOC constraints, here, CCP not releasing any news about it.
Also, I could counter argue that since Insorum is believed to be lethal, it would also have made big news that somehow, it was harmless this time.
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you could counter argue with that, but you would be forgetting...
This is new eden, people not dying, isn't really likely to make the news unless it happens somewhere like the kyonoke pit.
there is still the fact that several entire planetary populations would have been affected by the insorum bombardments.
several planetary populations dying in a manner similar to vitoxin poisoning would have made the news, no ifs, no buts, the SoE would have been involved, and newsfeeds across the cluster would have been sending live feeds out of it.
bio-weapon use on the scale that you seem to be suggesting simply wouldn't have gone un-noticed.
the only, and i really should emphasise 'only', logical explaination we can come to IC, is that this particular strain of insorum, isn't lethal.
the untested belief stated in insorum's description was false.
which would explain why they used the term 'believed to be' ...
I can understand why amarrian RP'ers would want to be able to paint insorum as a bio weapon, but in this case, there is simply no evidence to support that claim, and too much that counters it.
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That's your opinion. Don't take it wrong but i'm kindof not a fan arguing over thin air and things that do not even exist in PF. Characters can argue whatever they want and seems logical to them considering the facts they know, some will probably hold the same reasoning that you have, some will probably hold another, but the fact remains that since there is nothing in PF surrounding that particular matter, it's a slippery slope.
It's a slippery slope because anyone claiming that mass casualties happened or the contrary, will be confronted to the fact that the results of such a thing would be fairly obvious for anyone. And since us, the players, don't even know what is the correct answer, then how could our characters speculate about something so obvious ? Anyone would know if there was massive casualties, the same as everyone would know if there wasnt.
It's true that ICly since there is no news about it, we can take it as if nothing happened, but that's a little too convenient, and very risky.
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And since us, the players, don't even know what is the correct answer, then how could our characters speculate about something so obvious ?
Exact same issue as with the Elders being considered almost god-like beings of supreme knowledge, central to the beliefs and lives of all Minmatar citizens, as mentioned in the Empyrean Age book.
But no-one had told any of the Minmatar players about that in the previous 5 or so years. You'd think the existence of Minmatar demigods would be something that would have been mentioned.
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Well, Rok, explain to me again why Insorum was used on Mekhios after the slaves there were largely killed? Why did they waste that perfectly fine Insorum on the Sarumites?
There is no logical necessity to come to the conclusions you champion. I notice that 'logical' starts to be used as a buzzword to indicate that "I'm right and everyone who differs is wrong.", that's not what the word means, though. So unless you give a logically sound and valid proof that there's only your interpretation of a lack of information possible I will reserve myself the right to differ.
That said, I'm really excited for your rigorous logical treatment that shows that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
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I can understand why amarrian RP'ers would want to be able to paint insorum as a bio weapon, but in this case, there is simply no evidence to support that claim, and too much that counters it.
Perhaps amarrian RP'ers would like a game universe where one PF author's apparent highly personal grudge crusade against the Roman Catholic church wasn't so important to the game background ?
Casualties on the planets would result in the kinds of images that are on the TV and news in RL recently, due to events in the Middle East. The Elders are dicks, the Minmatar are dicks, the Gallente are dicks. But one author says "nope, they're not dicks, because the Catholic Church are dicks", and so they get a free pass to exterminate.
Woo \o/ :bash: :psyccp: :roll: :ugh:
[spoiler]Meh[/spoiler]
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If nobody knows Ishukone made Insorum, then I've been doing it wrong this whole time.
I think everyone knows Ishukone made insorum -- but whether they made the insorum used on the Amarr worlds is something else entirely. And whether you can prove it is an even bigger issue. As I said, if Reppola was smart, he obliterated anything that could trace that back to Ishukone.
I am pretty sure that was never public knowledge, anyway. If it was, Otro's sister was even more stupid than I thought she was.
IIRC, there were three sources of insorum known to capusleers/characters:
1) In the possession of Ishukone (CCP)
2) In the possession of UK (players)
3) In the possession of the Bloodraiders (players)
Characters who have IC knowledge of what happened to the samples in possession of player characters might well have very different opinions of Ishukone than those who do not.
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Well, Rok, explain to me again why Insorum was used on Mekhios after the slaves there were largely killed? Why did they waste that perfectly fine Insorum on the Sarumites?
There is no logical necessity to come to the conclusions you champion. I notice that 'logical' starts to be used as a buzzword to indicate that "I'm right and everyone who differs is wrong.", that's not what the word means, though. So unless you give a logically sound and valid proof that there's only your interpretation of a lack of information possible I will reserve myself the right to differ.
That said, I'm really excited for your rigorous logical treatment that shows that absence of evidence is evidence of absence.
Did you read the chapter you are referencing?
The initial bombardment with insorum was made because they intended to, and in fact attempted to, retrieve slaves from the planet.
They had no idea that most of the slaves had been hidden in sealed environments, forced to wear breathing apparatus, or killed.
(those were Jamyl's orders, in that specific order, the chapter insinuated that most were not killed, merely put in a position where the insorum would not reach them.
the assault on the ground failed because in this case, it was shown that after the initial bombardment, the slaves were still vitoc dependent. (the little girl who shot the matari trooper in the head for her next dosage)
How, pray tell, would those up on the ships that initiated the assault upon reaching orbit, have known about the activities of those on the planet?
It honestly sounds like you haven't actually read the book and are just going off second hand information here Nico.
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and in this case, yes. The absence of evidence as to the depopulation of the entire ammatar mandate, as well as Kor-Azor prime and Sarum prime, kind of is evidence that it didn't happen.
Those kind of things just don't go unreported.
simply put, people not dying isn't news.
people dying, especially on the scale we're talking about here, is.
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People not dying when exposed to a biological agent as in your words and CCP's believed to be absolutely lethal, to me, would rather make the news too. And if not in the cluster for whatever reason, at least in the ACN, or that, too, wouldnt make no sense.
The more I learn about that book...
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Hmmn, how could they have known? Maybe by reading the news stating that the Sarumites killed off the slaves, as a news article that was up before the Elder fleet reached the System did report?
13.45 Eve Standard time
Slave-lynching on Amarr Prime
Sarum Prime - Following the news of the massed Minmatar-Thukker task force invading Amarr sovereign territory, the planet 'Mekhios' have become the scene for mass public executions as Amarrian ground forces attempt to remove the threat of rebellious slaves before they are exposed to Insorum by the invading forces.
Reports are coming in that Minmatar-Thukker forces are rapidly approaching the Sarum core worlds, with little in the way to slow them down.
13.48 Eve Standard time
REPORT: THIRD MINMATAR-THUKKER FLEET DETECTED IN DOMAIN REGION; FIERCE FIGHTING REPORTED OVER SARUM PRIME
Sarum Prime – In what eyewitnesses are describing as an "epic, violent clash between empires", the Imperial Navy has just engaged a third Minmatar-Thukker fleet over the third planet of the Sarum Prime system, 'Mekhios'. Multiple worlds within the Amarr Empire, in particular the Kor-Azor Region, have been attacked with orbital bombardments just prior to the surface landings of hundreds of thousands of Minmatar troops, who despite their uniform ethnicity cannot be confirmed to be Republic infantrymen.
The invaders are believed to be using Insorum in their bombardments, saturating ground targets with airborne variants of the Vitoc-neutralizing agent before commencing their assaults.
It is unclear why the Imperial Navy has chosen Sarum Prime to makes its stand, where it appears the bulk of the Empire’s warships are either onsite or en-route to the battle.
That gives the Elder fleet 3 minutes to realize that they will waste their valuable Insorum... But maybe they didn't read the news ticker. Just like you?
Fanboying about that book being full of inconsistencies isn't really what will convice me.
And as well: Just because there are no news articles about people dying through Insorum doesn't mean no one were.
Also it might be the case that - shocking, I know - the Amarr were prepared for that incidence and used breathing masks not only on the slaves! Maybe civilians were as well evacuated before bombardment with Insorum commenced? Maybe Amarr are capable of ABC defense?
So, maybe the planets weren't depopulated because Insorum isn't toxic, but simply because the Amarr were prepared for the case of ABC attacks?
But, erm, no that's not a possibility because in this case, absence of evidence is evidence of absence because... wait,... you said so. Erm. No. That's got nothing to do with logics.
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Perhaps amarrian RP'ers would like a game universe where one PF author's apparent highly personal grudge crusade against the Roman Catholic church wasn't so important to the game background ?
...
The Elders are dicks, the Minmatar are dicks, the Gallente are dicks. But one author says "nope, they're not dicks, because the Catholic Church are dicks", and so they get a free pass to exterminate.
Damn you TonyG - if it hadn't been for you and those pesky kids everything would have turned out just like it should have in the EVE storyboarding we wrote on the back of a Reykjavik pub's napkins back in 2000 or some time:
The Amarr Empire are dicks! Reckless, arrogant, stupid dicks. And the Gallente are pussies. And the Minmatar Republic is an asshole. Pussies don't like dicks, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes: assholes that just want to shit on everything. Pussies may think they can deal with assholes their way. But the only thing that can fuck an asshole is a dick, with some balls. (The balls might or might not be the State). The problem with dicks is: they fuck too much or fuck when it isn't appropriate - and it takes a pussy to show them that. But sometimes, pussies can be so full of shit that they become assholes themselves... because pussies are an inch and half away from ass holes. I don't know much about this crazy, crazy world, but I do know this: If you don't let us fuck this asshole, we're going to have our dicks and pussies all covered in shit!
But god-damned TonyG and his 10 second attention span only read the first two sentences! :P
Edit to add:Still, we're finally getting things back on track. The Gallente are covered in shit and the Amarr are getting ready to do what needs to be done to the Republic. And the Caldari are still hanging around, swinging whichever way they want to.
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Insorum (Insorzapine bisulfate) is a reactive mutagen binder, a compound whose active chemical responds dynamically to mutagens in the body. This gives it tremendous healing properties for those afflicted with specific diseases, but, it is believed, also makes it an extremely dangerous genetic toxin for those in otherwise good health.
Believed by whom? Correctly or not? Are there actual PF instances of someone dying because of exposure to the stuff?
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Insorum (Insorzapine bisulfate) is a reactive mutagen binder, a compound whose active chemical responds dynamically to mutagens in the body. This gives it tremendous healing properties for those afflicted with specific diseases, but, it is believed, also makes it an extremely dangerous genetic toxin for those in otherwise good health.
Believed by whom? Correctly or not? Are there actual PF instances of someone dying because of exposure to the stuff?
Presumably by CONCORD, as they seem to be the ones who write 95% (if not all) of the item descriptions.
I'll add that just because it hasn't been a colossal huge news article or book to be thrown in our face, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Both Evelopedia and item descriptions are filled with offhand references and suggestions regarding the items they describe - Sooth Sayer, for instance, has "reports [telling] of abusers falling into a deep coma, never to regain consciousness."
Has it been in a news article? Not to my knowledge. Book? Definitely not. Should it be disregarded because it's not a stone-solid, in-the-spotlight confirmed fact? I don't think so.
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Still, an "is believed" is a lot to hinge something so massive on. Potential side effects on an illegal booster are a lot easier to accept than planet-wide bombardments with Insorum raising nary a peep about the supposedly lethal effect on pretty much everyone exposed to it.
Even the news article quoted by Nicoletta describes preparations being made for potential slave uprisings, but never mentions a single blip of worry about any kind of risk of it killing anyone. It's descibed as a "vitoc-neutralizing agent," simply.
My best guess is that if Insorum was intended to be dangerous to non-Vitoxin addicts, whoever wrote up that arc simply forgot about it. Yes, that's a stupid and massive omission, but at this point, isn't it less disruptive to retcon out a property only "believed" to exist, rather than retcon in billions of deaths and heinous war crimes?
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Again, you don't have to retcon in billions of deaths. Amarr are capable of ABC defense, too.
P.S.: They can do it with themselves, too, not just their slaves.
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I seem to have read somewhere on the fiction portal that Insorum as per the original blueprint is clean and does not kill, while retro engineering it is actually what makes it imperfect. Something that was described in the novel... Or is that just fantasy ? :psyccp:
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Again, you don't have to retcon in billions of deaths. Amarr are capable of ABC defense, too.
Possibly. It's just, mass murder or total abandonment of a segment of the population seems such an unlikely component of an ABC defense plan; a bit callous even for the Amarr.
It might be that there's not enough sealed environments and gas masks to go around for everyone and the slaves are last on the priority list, of course, but even then the tone of the article just seems.. off. I'd expect the expected miserable deaths due to chemical attack to be mentioned somewhere.
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It might be that there's not enough sealed environments and gas masks to go around for everyone and the slaves are last on the priority list, of course,
You can bet that they are last on the priority list. Also, we're not speaking about any Amarr here, but Sarumites. If it's strategically and tactically the sound strategy to get property they can't reasonably defend out of the way, because it will be otherwise be dangerous itself, then, well, pragmatics says kill them off. It's not that it'd make the situation better if you'd have to shoot them once they attack you...
but even then the tone of the article just seems.. off. I'd expect the expected miserable deaths due to chemical attack to be mentioned somewhere.
I expect them to be made as well. I'd also expect that Elder's don't waste valuable insorum if they won't reach any slaves with it. And I'd expect that if a chemical agent that is supposed to be leathal is used in orbital bombardments that it would come up in the news that it actually isn't leathal.
Having re-read the writeup for that year in Evelopedia, it seems though that, indeed, Insorum was not leathal. It is as well alluded there that on Sarum lots of slaves were captured by the Elders. How this is actually consistent with Sarumites killing the slaves off remains a mystery. Maybe they recovered the dead bodies.
Even so, news articles and writup agree that Insorum, even though not itself a bioweapon, changed apparently slaves affected by it:
some kind of directed chemical {later identified as Insorum} bombardment was delivered from low orbit, provoking rioting and mass uprisings among the slave population
So, okay, maybe Insorum wasn't directly a bioweapon, still the Elder's had no quarrel with turning the slaves into such. Not sure if that's really better.
I still think there are lots of unresolved questions and contradictions in the material there.
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It might be that there's not enough sealed environments and gas masks to go around for everyone and the slaves are last on the priority list, of course,
You can bet that they are last on the priority list. Also, we're not speaking about any Amarr here, but Sarumites. If it's strategically and tactically the sound strategy to get property they can't reasonably defend out of the way, because it will be otherwise be dangerous itself, then, well, pragmatics says kill them off. It's not that it'd make the situation better if you'd have to shoot them once they attack you...
but even then the tone of the article just seems.. off. I'd expect the expected miserable deaths due to chemical attack to be mentioned somewhere.
I expect them to be made as well. I'd also expect that Elder's don't waste valuable insorum if they won't reach any slaves with it. And I'd expect that if a chemical agent that is supposed to be leathal is used in orbital bombardments that it would come up in the news that it actually isn't leathal.
Having re-read the writeup for that year in Evelopedia, it seems though that, indeed, Insorum was not leathal. It is as well alluded there that on Sarum lots of slaves were captured by the Elders. How this is actually consistent with Sarumites killing the slaves off remains a mystery. Maybe they recovered the dead bodies.
Even so, news articles and writup agree that Insorum, even though not itself a bioweapon, changed apparently slaves affected by it:
some kind of directed chemical {later identified as Insorum} bombardment was delivered from low orbit, provoking rioting and mass uprisings among the slave population
So, okay, maybe Insorum wasn't directly a bioweapon, still the Elder's had no quarrel with turning the slaves into such. Not sure if that's really better.
I still think there are lots of unresolved questions and contradictions in the material there.
Hopefully the more problematic bits with get the 'Heth' treatment. As usual CCP's vacation schedule gets in the way. :|
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I went through the Empyrean Age book today, did not see any mention of what version of Insorum was being used.
Found two old news articles, from when the Insorum affair first started:
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/highly-dangerous-compound-believed-compromised-massive-search-underway-1/
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/internal-report-indicates-prior-untruths-on-part-of-zainou-1/
"Insorzapine bisulfate" is the compound known as Insorum, and may or may not be a hugely lethal substance. It was reported that " the fact that when given to a healthy organism the compound will attack natural DNA repair processes, causing a rapid chain reaction of cell suicide that within days leads to a cancerous death. ", but later it was reported that Zainou Biotech may have falsified some reports.
"Insorzapine-4" is apparently a safe compound, but this is NOT Insorum. Anyone with knowledge of pharmaceuticals will be able to explain how similar chemicals can have different effects. left-handed molecules and so forth.
Insorzapine bisulfate is also the substance that the Blood raiders got their hands on, for the attack on Mabnen, with all the riots and massacres and other violence as the result.
There is also the "Insorum Components" item, showinfo reveals "These are the raw chemical components used to make insorzapine bisulfate, an unstable reactive mutagen binder with uses that include negating the effects of Vitoc. This compound is also dangerously lethal."
"Unstable". Hmmph.
Given that Zainou Biotech have falsified data regarding Insorum, I do not believe it is safe to assume that Insorum has no side effects, although no side effects were mentioned from the Mabnen incident either.
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Given that Zainou Biotech have falsified data regarding Insorum, I do not believe it is safe to assume that Insorum has no side effects, although no side effects were mentioned from the Mabnen incident either.
Oxygen has potentially lethal side-effects if given inappropriately.
I skimmed through the Mabnen incident report and so may have missed some of the finer detail, but my take on it was that most of the (reported) deaths came from "the riots and massacres and other violence" you mentioned. I put this down to a freighter load of slaves suddenly becoming free and rebelling violently.
Objectively, the "this compound is also dangerously lethal" statement could be referring to the 'Insorum Components' item (rather than Insorum itself). It's kind of vague in its wording, although I tend to agree with you that it's probably talking about Insorum rather than its component parts.
Real world stuff now: Something that attacks 'natural DNA repair processes' generally doesn't cause a rapid chain reaction of cell suicide (apoptosis). What it (eventually) progresses to is a defective cell line persisting rather than being knocked out of the organism, which then predisposes to cancer. One example is the gene defect in Hereditary Non-Polyposis Colon Cancer which affects mismatch repair (MMR) proteins and results in a presentation of bowel cancer 15-20 years earlier compared with the general (spontaneous) population. It still takes 30+ years to develop though because it's not a one-hit pathogenesis.
Then again this is a potential engineered bioweapon and we're pretending to fly spaceships in a fictional future in a fictional galaxy, so how much you can handwave and how much you should extrapolate from real-world sources probably doesn't crossover too greatly. File the MMR stuff away for a trivia night at a pub near you in the (near) future and you might win a few free drinks - although you'd probably be better served remembering Beiber's current girlfriend or One Direction's birthdays at least for the next few years :)
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To be fair, Ollie, what that assumes is that "attacks the natural DNA repair processes" refers to something that would simply shut these processes down, paving the way for limited errors later triggering cancer. "Attacks" is a very vague word though; it could mean "seizes control of the DNA repair processes to deliberately write in errors." In an Vitoxin-effected cell, the targeted DNA sites would be promptly located within stretches of Vitoxin-related DNA; these are then scrambled by the hijacked processes, crippling Vitoxin's ability to reproduce and shortly purging it from the body. In a non-infected body, by contrast, the Insorum does not immediately located a suitable target and instead remains in the body for an extended period of time; during this time, the "highly unstable" Insorum instead reacts with natural stretches of cellular DNA, resulting in rapid cell death or mutation as the cells find their normal processes interrupted.
Something else struck me in something Synthia posted as well:
It was reported that " the fact that when given to a healthy organism the compound will attack natural DNA repair processes, causing a rapid chain reaction of cell suicide that within days leads to a cancerous death. ",
Bolding mine.
Here is a plausible answer for why no mass-deaths due to "Insorum poisoning" were reported immediately during the Elder invasion: There were none. "Within days" could mean a week, even two - not something that makes people fall over dead minutes after breathing it. By the time deaths began, the news had already moved on.
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To be fair, Ollie, what that assumes is that "attacks the natural DNA repair processes" refers to something that would simply shut these processes down, paving the way for limited errors later triggering cancer. "Attacks" is a very vague word though; it could mean "seizes control of the DNA repair processes to deliberately write in errors." In an Vitoxin-effected cell, the targeted DNA sites would be promptly located within stretches of Vitoxin-related DNA; these are then scrambled by the hijacked processes, crippling Vitoxin's ability to reproduce and shortly purging it from the body. In a non-infected body, by contrast, the Insorum does not immediately located a suitable target and instead remains in the body for an extended period of time; during this time, the "highly unstable" Insorum instead reacts with natural stretches of cellular DNA, resulting in rapid cell death or mutation as the cells find their normal processes interrupted.
I agree. To be honest, all it probably means is that the EVE Devs aren't well versed in the minutiae of genetics or cancer science - which no-one should expect them to be. :)
It was reported that " the fact that when given to a healthy organism the compound will attack natural DNA repair processes, causing a rapid chain reaction of cell suicide that within days leads to a cancerous death. ",
Bolding mine.
Here is a plausible answer for why no mass-deaths due to "Insorum poisoning" were reported immediately during the Elder invasion: There were none. "Within days" could mean a week, even two - not something that makes people fall over dead minutes after breathing it. By the time deaths began, the news had already moved on.
I think this is a good point.
It offers a reasonable explanation that can be worked into co-operative RP without causing too much offense on either side of the debate.
That said, compare it to reporting of the after effects of the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - the medium and long-term effects of radiation exposure in those cities were reported despite the length of time it took for some of them to become apparent. Certainly a good deal of our modern understanding of radiation risk for conditions such as leukemia and thyroid cancer came initially from our followup of those populations. In other words, there wasn't a total lack of reporting.
I think it comes down to that we're trying to shoehorn a fictional universe into 'real world' concepts. In EVE, devs are doing a lot of other things around the time of events which might impact on their ability to get the fine detail that some of us crave into PF form. Trying to figure out what they were doing five or more years down the track and extrapolating it to our RP now is something of an exercise in frustration. In the real world, that detail is there because it's what the media are paid to do and it's where the passion of investigative journalists lies.
I think we need to realise that just because something's not printed and quotable in EVE lore doesn't mean that we can't express an opinion in-game that appears as a follow-on consistent with the lore that we do have. Likewise, opinions that are in conflict with this are not necessarily wrong either. I think that sometimes we try to say 'well, this is how it is offline so that must hold true in the game too' in an effort to rationalise our view of the game world and 'win' the debate. In doing so we miss out on the persisting RP potential of having no singular position come out as the unequivocal 'victor'.
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The long term effects of insorum exposure from the Mabnen attack are unknown.
All non-Minmatar in exposed areas were murdered, and all Minmatar in exposed areas were killed by Imperial counter-attacks.
Similarly for the Elder Fleet attacks.