Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Vic Van Meter on 10 Nov 2013, 18:31
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... what is it good for?
Serious question, since opinion seems to be divided and I thought this would be a good place to ask.
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Absolutely nothing.
;)
For a serious answer that is worth the time it takes to read, ask somebody else. I've been out of the PvP game for too long :P
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It's for catching things that don't want to be caught and then tearing it to bits, and for running away from things that wants to catch you.
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It makes an absolutely awesome loot pinata.
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It's little like the little brother of the vaga/cynabal/stabber, it's mostly a top skirmisher. Generally impossible to catch if you know what you are doing and are trying to stay away, you choose what and when you engage.
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My friend the doublewebs.
I think the Daredevil is the better of the two (let us not talk about the others, especially you, worm), simply because railguns are better at kiting and finding something that commits in brawl range /and does not have a plan/backup/ogb can be challenging. Generally speaking: Don't use it unless you really know what you do and especially what to expect.
Also enjoy being primary in any group situation. 8)
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Used to be incredibly fuckoff OP. More balanced now, so many people declare it useless. Still an exceptional kiter or fast tackler, but requires knowledge of what you're doing. Right pain in the arse. Usually dies to a hookbill unless you just punch it in the dick with higher dps.
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Sometimes the hookbill punches things in the dick with superior DPS as well. 8)
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Eeehh. Possibly. Not that often though. Hookbill's strength is applying the dps rather than having a lot of it.
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Around 200 is quite possible - and applied dps is always better than paper dps, I don't see how that would count against burning the foe down.
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(http://i.imgur.com/X8GGv1x.gif)
Dramiel used to be the guy with the ball.
These days, it would not survive the clusterfuck about 4 seconds into that gif.
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Every Dramiel ever deserves to die for the grief they caused me during their OP days.
I will never forget the dozen or so Slicers I've lost to the fuckers.
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To be clearer on what people's issue with them was, they used to have no real downsides or weaknesses in combat. They had gun DPS on scale with gun assault frigs while still being able to launch four drones; they could also do this while still sporting a respectable tank. They did this while burning at some freakish speeds (the "baseline", IIRC was about 2 km/s with MWD) for extended periods of time, yet still being able to turn on a dime as needed.
The end result was tankier than an interceptor while still being able to practically spin in place, and sport more DPS than an assault frigate while flying faster. They were especially hellish for larger ships, where they could quickly get under guns while shrugging off light drone flights and then proceed to eat away at your HP with surprising speed. There was some subtitled picture that compared being attacked by dramiels to being bitten to death by supersonic mosquitoes.
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There was some subtitled picture that compared being attacked by dramiels to being bitten to death by supersonic mosquitoes.
That was mine, and it was done after an all-Dramiel roam that Veto ran for shits and giggles - we posed for a photo op after we got home.
Behold:
(http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/mlagann/motivator_dramiel_fleets.jpg)
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It makes an absolutely awesome loot pinata.
This.
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I love flying the Dramiel, although I don't tend to fly it as a dual-prop so much as a rather nasty interceptor with drones. Sadly, my style got nerfed heavily just as I was getting the hang of it, with the nerf to both TDs and the drammy. Still, it's a great frigate.
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Esna, make that 2km/s with an AB and as much as 7km/s with an MWD.
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The main thing that made the Dramiel stand out back when it was "OP" was that it was a recently buffed ship that was a pseudo relic of the nano era. In a time when 4km/s was considered fast for a frigate (down from the mad ride that your average 21km/s interceptor used to give you) it was a blast from the past that kicked people in the teeth to boot.
The speed was good, damage application was fairly solid without having to slow down due to the drones and high tracking of small projectiles, and it's agility gave it a GTFO button if you were quick enough (the Dramiel and the Cynabal were the first ships to bring about the dual prop concept). Of course, there was a vast proliferation of bads who lost theirs to gatecamps, overextended in combat and lost them to trivial ships that they couldn't speedtank etc, which only served to increase the aura around the ship when corps like GENOS roamed in them solo and got BC kills.
It's worth pointing out however that it's glory days were in an era of ship imbalance. Feasible hard counters i.e. T1 frigates and/or interceptors were still in their original configs, across the board everything had just had the brakes slammed on hard at the end of the nano era; all of this only served to hype the ship to the extreme.
Was the Dramiel a good ship for its time? Yes. Was it OP considering ship balance at the time? Yes. That's changed now. It's still a respectable frigate that you should be afraid of if you get caught solo (and are in something small), but the balance of the game is such that there's a lot more that can effectively kill it.
Some people might argue that the Condor is the new Dramiel though...
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The summary about the Dramiel is pretty much spot on. It's very dangerous in 1v1, with the problems attached to it: High chance that people who do stick around have a plan to kill you (whether by fit, friends on call, drugs, pirate imps, ogb). It's mobility and damage application are good, but suffer when compared to the ab/rail daredevil which is likely much more comfortable with fighting two frigates and assorted fun thanks to its neat web.
And you're just trying to troll me with that Condor comment, Sofia. 8)
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Trolling is a art Desi, there's no doubt about that, but it was more of a generalized comment in regards to the perception of the community.
It's pretty much the new Dramiel, although I always considered the Cynabal to be a more broken ship in the grand scheme of things.
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Dunno, really. I mean, I like the Condor and it is genuinely a good ship, but "The New Dramiel" it is not. If wanted (this thread is about the Dramiel) I could go into details, but let's just say I'm not saying this because I'm using it all the time and only my pure unadorned skill makes it worthwhile - I'm basically not using it since I could be using better stuff for the same price/role. That said, I'm still working on the KondorSchwarm doctrine. Somehow the #KKswag-Kestrel is better in fleets atm. :o
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By all means, share. I've yet to fly the thing, but I have some suspicions about where its weaknesses lie.
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By all means, share. I've yet to fly the thing, but I have some suspicions about where its weaknesses lie.
Its weakness is that it doesn't have alot of tank. If your ship could bully its way through that thing's damage and smack him, you win. Unfortunately not alot of ships can do that.
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That's a speed thing though. Standard ship stopping measures apply e.g. slingshotting etc.
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Speed's very important to me in this game. If I'm not flying a frigate, I get very bored very quickly. I haven't trained anything beyond basic cruisers simply because flying at range and shooting targets in order of threat and proximity nearly put me to sleep during the Sisters of Eve questline. Maybe if EVE wasn't my second game and I had more time on my hands, it wouldn't be relaxation material. Still, flying into a Sansha Den in a T2 frigate at full speed is hours of fun.
The reason I asked was because I wanted to start expanding my collection of frigates if I'm not going anywhere. The Dramiel seemed to get a lot of conflicting press.
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If you like frigates I just want to say hello and cough mysteriously.
Also regarding Dramiel: It's better than a lot in its class, which also means that not a lot in its class will fight it - and it's not that good anymore that it can easily shoulder through counterfits or a simple +1 in a fight, through a combination of less extreme speed, ehp and dps differences. Also destroyers can not be killed easily either. The first point is by far the most important. It's easy to go out of your way and try to set up a trap for a shiny kill.
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The reason I asked was because I wanted to start expanding my collection of frigates if I'm not going anywhere. The Dramiel seemed to get a lot of conflicting press.
There are essentially two ways to fit the dramiel. One is to rely on its innate speed and agility. This has been somewhat nerfed, but you can still engage many frigates and some destroyers (rail dessies, dumb arty thrashers, etc). However, knowing what will kill you and what will not is now essentially an after-the-fact proposition with many ships. Is that Comet AB or MWD fitted? Is that a dual-web Hookbill? And the solution set for guessing wrong is much more binary than before - in my opinion.
The other method of fitting is a "trick" of some sort. I liked to put a TD on mine, before the TD nerf. Sure, I could only pack an AB, but you weren't going to be tracking me anyway, not even with blasters - I know, because I used that fit to go after Daredevils, who were always given a very unpleasant surprise.
That fit is pretty well dead now. I've considered a dual-web, but can't really see the point. A aux-shield booster might work as a sort of troll fit, but any armor tank basically flushes the point of a dramiel down the drain. Time will tell - I have some other ideas, but nothing worth really trying out yet.
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That's a speed thing though. Standard ship stopping measures apply e.g. slingshotting etc.
You have to recall that even when fitted as a brawler, that thing's dps is nothing to sneeze at. Imagine something that could hit you like an AC Wolf can, and still has the benefit of four med slots.
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That's a speed thing though. Standard ship stopping measures apply e.g. slingshotting etc.
You have to recall that even when fitted as a brawler, that thing's dps is nothing to sneeze at. Imagine something that could hit you like an AC Wolf can, and still has the benefit of four med slots.
AC Wolf really isn't a great example of "I'm going to merk you softly".
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Ask Ava how she was going above 250-300 DPS with a wolf... Thats rather superior to a dramiel DPS output.
Which is already not bad, but it's a skirmisher, what annoys me is not its DPS, it has to have a good amount to ninja things, but its survivability in terms of hitpoints).
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Comet and Firetail can basically do anything the Dramiel can do for a substantially lower cost and an ability to pull more solo engagements or not getting primaried in any small gang engagement due to being in a shiny expensive frigate.
As for "OP Condor" it's like no one has ever fought a 150 dps mwd Tristan or double-damp kite Maulus. :roll:
Hell, even a breacher can do the TD kiting just like a Condor.
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Comet and Firetail can basically do anything the Dramiel can do for a substantially lower cost and an ability to pull more solo engagements or not getting primaried in any small gang engagement due to being in a shiny expensive frigate.
As for "OP Condor" it's like no one has ever fought a 150 dps mwd Tristan or double-damp kite Maulus. :roll:
Hell, even a breacher can do the TD kiting just like a Condor.
Breachers are awesome. I love my Breacher.
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If you have to ask, you should not be flying it.
But it is a good frigate but as veik said, firetail can do it cheaper.
and the condor isn't OP, there are tons and tons of ships that can kill condors. They are just super in nub v nub fights. Takes a lot to slingshot one and very little to pilot it in the same engagement.
and getting 300 DPS out of a Wolf is not so difficult, its CPU means sacrifices though.