Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Louella Dougans on 24 Dec 2010, 13:35
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At times, looking at things going on ingame, and on IGS, I feel this sort of thing happens:
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a231/bertcom1/RPevilhat.png)
That is, it is rather difficult to tell what a particular entity you encounter is, unless they make over-the-top proclamations about it.
And people have various schemes, which many people would be opposed to, if they were to find out.
But mostly, the only way people would find out about a scheme, is if the schemer tells them about it.
What are your thoughts on this sort of thing?
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That IGS is not a place for schemes any more than the CIA uses LiveJournal to plan clandestine operations.
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You worry too much. Eve is full of honest, high integrity individuals and organisations who want nothing more than to help each other.
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If you're a good RPer, the hat is unnecessary. A good hustler doesn't have to tell anyone he's a hustler. He does what he does and if people want answers, they can do the digging themselves.
Jumping on IGS and yelling about how evil your evil evilness is evil... eh, its a crutch, and some people need it.
Sidenote: other things that should tip you off to an evil character; if they use the word "exquisite" or "resplendant" too much, they're evil. Mustaches are also a good indicator. If he seems like a "changed heart mercenary" just remember he'll eventually betray you down the line. Take it from Uncle Senn.
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I roleplay as a pursuer of fairness and good, if we are using the philosophical "good". Some people think I'm extremely evil and mysterious, just based on my ingame avatar.
That is when you know you've done your job: You leave people guessing. But yeah I'm good kk
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You worry too much. Eve is full of honest, high integrity individuals and organisations who want nothing more than to help each other.
Confirming I am one such person.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hi
From: Visitmaniac
Sent: 2010.12.14 07:12
To: Bacchanalian,
Just wanted to say thanks alot for steeling all my stuff its been over a week now a bit uncalled for
I helped him rid himself of an Orca, Hulk, Covetor and various and sundry mining tools. Maybe he'll figure out how to actually enjoy EVE now instead of hating his life when he logs in. :D
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That is, it is rather difficult to tell what a particular entity you encounter is, unless they make over-the-top proclamations about it.
And people have various schemes, which many people would be opposed to, if they were to find out.
But mostly, the only way people would find out about a scheme, is if the schemer tells them about it.
What are your thoughts on this sort of thing?
Thinking about this, I think it might be a bandwidth issue. There are all sorts of cues we don't get from characters in Eve, which we potentially can get IRL. There is not thousands of people gossiping at drunken parties about your corp saying to their friends "Yeah, I can't talk about it, but the boss is really an arsehole, and he has these evil plans", who gossip to their friends, and their friends etc... So there really aren't as many back-channels as there perhaps should be.
So the easy way for this information to leak out is for people to spread it themselves.
/me considers creating an alt who goes to bars and complains about the schemes of Ulf...
Not that I have any schemes or anything...
Honest.
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Meanwhile, in RP-land: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEiyBbP28g8
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Meanwhile, in RP-land: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEiyBbP28g8
Mah spoon is too big! D:
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That is, it is rather difficult to tell what a particular entity you encounter is, unless they make over-the-top proclamations about it.
And people have various schemes, which many people would be opposed to, if they were to find out.
But mostly, the only way people would find out about a scheme, is if the schemer tells them about it.
What are your thoughts on this sort of thing?
Thinking about this, I think it might be a bandwidth issue. There are all sorts of cues we don't get from characters in Eve, which we potentially can get IRL. There is not thousands of people gossiping at drunken parties about your corp saying to their friends "Yeah, I can't talk about it, but the boss is really an arsehole, and he has these evil plans", who gossip to their friends, and their friends etc... So there really aren't as many back-channels as there perhaps should be.
So the easy way for this information to leak out is for people to spread it themselves.
/me considers creating an alt who goes to bars and complains about the schemes of Ulf...
Not that I have any schemes or anything...
Honest.
I wonder if something could be set up. There is so much stuff that it isn't realistic for your character to blab about in public, but that might get leaked other ways - that OOC you might like to leak because it would lead to RPs, and which realistically someone who really wanted to know might find out.
It wouldn't even have to be true stuff. It could be like Em's gossip wiki, where most of the stuff is totally wrong, even if it has a grain of truth to it. It would just provide more surface area for RP to gain traction, though.
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TBH I think we need to get rid of the hats.
The biggest problem I see with the whole "I am Evil!"/"I am Good!" thing is that it's all subjective and societally determined. An example, if you will indulge me:
The Amarr believe slavery is justified, the Gallente strongly disagree.
In accordance with contemporary Western culture, slavery is frowned upon, if not completely illegal; it does happen, more commonly than you might think, but it's considered Wrong. Because we're seeing the issue of slavery in Eve through the eyes of this contemporary perception of slavery, we end up with people who own slaves IC acting in an overtly sinister fashion.
But if you look at slave owners throughout Earth history -- even modern slave-owners -- they do not think of their actions as wrong or harmful to others. It's their way of life; it's a personal economy. You wouldn't find them lurking in a dark corner twirling their mustache and cackling deviously simply because they own slaves.
The point is that nobody ever views themself as being "evil". They may feel, morally, that their actions are in the wrong, but they have justification for why they do it. Even if that justification is a total fabrication to set their own mind at ease, nobody WANTS to think of themself as being "evil".
And then we have the conundrum of Eve. Eve is twenty thousand years into our future; society has fractured, collapsed, fractured again, and rebuilt itself. Society is going to be fundamentally different, and if you try to Westernise it and simplify it you end up with a sad little pile of clichés and parodies that just make people watching cringe.
I love watching people dispense with the hats when they RP; they have transcended contemporary cultural ideals and enabled themselves to portray a person who sees things differently.
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RP hats are one of the reasons I tend to avoid RPing on IGS/Summit/Public Forums (for EVE anyways); everything that a character does that's not "okay" by RL society is judged by RL society standards, making it appear that Inara is wearing the "black felt hat" in an old western.
I love watching people dispense with the hats when they RP; they have transcended contemporary cultural ideals and enabled themselves to portray a person who sees things differently.
This is how I try to approach things when RPing Inara. She doesn't see the things she does as evil, just business and unfortunately sometimes business involves unnecessary deaths of those that refuse to come to reasonable terms (Inara's perspective IC, not mine OOC). And by the terms of the society (Capsuleers in general, as well as the "pirate" element of EVE) she immerses herself in... she's not "abnormal", she's actually "average".
By modern cultural ideals (which aren't all good, in my personal opinion) she'd be in Gitmo and no lawyer would ever consider raising a case if she was being tortured for information, and many would consider her a monster.
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Not just about "good" vs "evil", it's also about the kind of weirdness of it all.
It's like comic book supervillains, or the Bond villains, explaining their scheme to the captive/restrained superheroes/Bond.
Like, suppose someone was to organise a planetary raid on Planet X, with PI structures, freighters + industrials full of troops + supplies, etc.
It's a big effort to set that up, and there would be lots of opportunity for interesting/enjoyable RP and pvp in opposing it/fighting through to complete it.
But that only happens if someone deliberately mentions it ahead of time. Which feels a bit artificial or metagamey to me.
It's like a medieval challenge, like ones that happened here. "In 3 days time, we shall tether a pig on your land, and the devil take any of yours that try and move it."
And that sort of thing only fits with a handful of character concepts - esp. arrogant types.
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At times, looking at things going on ingame, and on IGS, I feel this sort of thing happens:
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a231/bertcom1/RPevilhat.png)
That is, it is rather difficult to tell what a particular entity you encounter is, unless they make over-the-top proclamations about it.
And people have various schemes, which many people would be opposed to, if they were to find out.
But mostly, the only way people would find out about a scheme, is if the schemer tells them about it.
What are your thoughts on this sort of thing?
Ever watch a movie where the sneering villain monologues to the captured protagonist, explaining every step of his devious plot and laying out the reasons why it is IMPOSSIBLE to fail?
It's a bit like that.
edit: And of course, the post directly above mine says the same thing, which I failed to notice :\
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/me hugs Istvaan
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* Istvaan cops a feel
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But mostly, the only way people would find out about a scheme, is if the schemer tells them about it.
This is my big problem. If I've had my way I would have planted NPCs loyal to me inside Electus Matari and Ushra'Khan, would pay people to give me the times when there was a PIE directorate meeting.
Unfortunately, I can't do those things, and such information is not inaccessible to me in other regular ways. I have no interest in using spy alts, and wouldn't use capsuleer hired spies for many such jobs. I also wouldn't hack forum accounts, try to overhear MSN conversations and the like.
However, such is neccessary to get information that people don't want to get like IC.
I doubt anyone has any idea how many schemes X or Y Merdaneth has cooked, simply because its hard, tedious and often unrewarding to try and find out. All my secret schemes are . No NPC ever betrays me, no employee of Merdaneth is ever bought, no security system is ever bypassed.
Indeed, the best way to get people to interact with your 'evil/good' schemes is telling people about them, and telling it before it is completed to allow people to interact with it. Hiding RP that you desire others to be interact with is pretty stupid things to do in EVE.
I'll post an 'evil plan' tomorrow, however, in such a way the scheme is believable.
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It wouldn't even have to be true stuff. It could be like Em's gossip wiki, where most of the stuff is totally wrong, even if it has a grain of truth to it. It would just provide more surface area for RP to gain traction, though.
Is there a gossip Wiki just for EM, or for the general public? How would my character learn of such a place IC? This is certainly the first I've heard of it OOC.
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It wouldn't even have to be true stuff. It could be like Em's gossip wiki, where most of the stuff is totally wrong, even if it has a grain of truth to it. It would just provide more surface area for RP to gain traction, though.
Is there a gossip Wiki just for EM, or for the general public? How would my character learn of such a place IC? This is certainly the first I've heard of it OOC.
Its a wiki page on the EM forums, where various anonymous authors write tabloid type stories about various EM pilots. I dont think they're public, though I would love it if they were.
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Evil/good hat thread up:
Angel Wings acquires orphanages in the Republic (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1438109)
Also, added minor possibility for (in-game) interaction.
But yeah, if you don't publish these things in the manner of 'look at this good/evil' scheme, then its hard to get much RP from it, since it isn't visibile unless I mention it. While it makes sense to do this in secret, I can only excuse revealing it for PR purposes IC.
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Bit of a stretch, being KOS to the Republic, and being enemy militia. Still, RP is RP, and I take extensive liberties myself privately.
Opportunity for Seriphyn to downmouth those liberal hippie Amarrians anyway :P
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Bit of a stretch, being KOS to the Republic, and being enemy militia. Still, RP is RP, and I take extensive liberties myself privately.
Opportunity for Seriphyn to downmouth those liberal hippie Amarrians anyway :P
I doubt any Republic officials would allow it. Hence I specified explicitely that I worked through intermediaries.
Also, if you are a standings believer, you can always choose to believe that my good contacts with the Rep Fleet made this happen.
Also, keep in mind are plenty of Amarr-owned installations in Heimatar.
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Oh, it's nothing to do with the fact that he's Amarrian, it's that he's a militia commodore, and "enemy combatant"
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Evil/good hat thread up:
Angel Wings acquires orphanages in the Republic (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1438109)
Also, added minor possibility for (in-game) interaction.
But yeah, if you don't publish these things in the manner of 'look at this good/evil' scheme, then its hard to get much RP from it, since it isn't visibile unless I mention it. While it makes sense to do this in secret, I can only excuse revealing it for PR purposes IC.
Ah PR, always fun.
Of course my scheme works no matter the response really. The hat is 'one size fits all' you might say.
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Evil/good hat thread up:
Angel Wings acquires orphanages in the Republic (http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1438109)
Also, added minor possibility for (in-game) interaction.
My imagination is failing again, but what sort of interaction do you think is possible in game from this? What are you hoping for?
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This is what I like to call "The Dick Dastardly School of Evil."
Basically, if you want to be a two-dimensional cartoon character, then by all means go around twirling a moustache whilst explaining your evil plans to your sniggering dog.
(http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1125000/images/_1125708_mut.jpg)
But if you want to do evil properly, then you have to play a character who doesn't realise that they're evil. Maybe someone who does evil deeds because they think that they're acting for the greater good.
As the old saying goes: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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would pay people to give me the times when there was a PIE directorate meeting.
Like we're that organised...
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*Dossie Kielle hugs Ogre II
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I find much of this is avoided when you are playing a character who really has no plan at all.
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I wonder if something could be set up. There is so much stuff that it isn't realistic for your character to blab about in public, but that might get leaked other ways - that OOC you might like to leak because it would lead to RPs, and which realistically someone who really wanted to know might find out.
It wouldn't even have to be true stuff. It could be like Em's gossip wiki, where most of the stuff is totally wrong, even if it has a grain of truth to it. It would just provide more surface area for RP to gain traction, though.
Many RP MUDs have a Rumors board for this kind of thing, and it works very well. I support developing something like this for Eve.
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Many RP MUDs have a Rumors board for this kind of thing, and it works very well. I support developing something like this for Eve.
Backstage rumor section?
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Created in Fiction and stickied
here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1581.0)
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Created in Fiction and stickied
here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1581.0)
The question becomes if there should be an anonymity feature, or if knowing who is making the hook line is better to know than not.
Something of a metagame approach by not involving one's self based solely on who the rumor creator is, as it were.
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The only argument against anonymity is that, as a [mod]moderator[/mod] I'd like to be able to be confident that rumors aren't being started maliciously, without the player's consent.
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The only argument against anonymity is that, as a moderator I'd like to be able to be confident that rumors aren't being started maliciously, without the player's consent.
That is a position I did not consider. What I originally thought of was "Oh, so and so made this. Well I don't want to be involved with that player even though that storyline would be useful to my development".
Your point holds more merit over mine though, I think.
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The only argument against anonymity is that, as a moderator I'd like to be able to be confident that rumors aren't being started maliciously, without the player's consent.
That is a position I did not consider. What I originally thought of was "Oh, so and so made this. Well I don't want to be involved with that player even though that storyline would be useful to my development".
Your point holds more merit over mine though, I think.
I think being able to post anonymously could be important in some circumstances. If I post a rumour about my charater people would be more likely to regard it as fact. If there isnt a source for that rumour people would be more likely to engauge my charater IC about the rumour.
Its a nice way for people, like me, who's charaters would never showboat on IGS to put out info and story hooks. Obvious story hooks are obvious, and are usually ignored.
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The halfway would be a system that shows posters to the mods, but not to the general public. Another possibility would be a player-run "gossip rag" on IGS/some blog site accepting hints from people by EVEmail, but that needs a few good volunteers and some moderation on what to publish. (Hints from 1-day alts? Sure, the yellow papers would publish those, too, but it's not necessary fair in this case.)
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The halfway would be a system that shows posters to the mods, but not to the general public. Another possibility would be a player-run "gossip rag" on IGS/some blog site accepting hints from people by EVEmail, but that needs a few good volunteers and some moderation on what to publish. (Hints from 1-day alts? Sure, the yellow papers would publish those, too, but it's not necessary fair in this case.)
I don't know how to set up an 'invisible poster' thing on this board and it may not be possible. Aside from the external blog solution (and if anyone wants to take that idea and run with it ...) there's also the possibility that someone could mail a mod with a rumor about their character that they want to be published 'anonymously' but people would probably just assume that the character who the gossip was about was the source anyway ...
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I think being able to post anonymously could be important in some circumstances. If I post a rumour about my charater people would be more likely to regard it as fact. If there isnt a source for that rumour people would be more likely to engauge my charater IC about the rumour.
In practice, the above has not been a problem for Gradient or Electus Matari. We have found that players who actively use the gossip pages will happily write both lies and truths, and regard what they read more as invitations to find stuff out than facts.
Personally, I consider the ability to know who posted a certain rumour to be good feature. It both gives due OOC fame to awesome gossip writers for what they give to the RP community, and makes people accountable for what they post about other characters.
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Eh. One could also PM a friend (or random stranger) to post a rumor on one's behalf. On the Internet, everything IS anonymous, or at least pseudonymous.
Until subpoenas get involved. And sometimes even then...
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Random comments on this one from my point of view...
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That IGS is not a place for schemes any more than the CIA uses LiveJournal to plan clandestine
operations.
QFT.
2. Secrets tend to come out. Also in EVE, though maybe due to the "bandwidth issue" Ulph mentions slower and/or with lower frequency than in RL - but you'd be surprised of the amount of stuff that does come up eventually. Secrets tend to come out because people in general suck at keeping a secret and so go and tell: drunken gossip at parties, just needing someone to share the burden, the sheer glee of showing to be "in the know". And yes, so-called professionals do this too. One problem in EVE (and other games) is that sometimes people overcome the urge to tell IC by telling OOC, and assuming the other party won't use the info. This causes an unrealistic situation where it is easy for the character not to share with anyone, because the player already has.
3. EM "gossip wiki" is private (though I am not exactly sure if it needs to be, or if this is just a technical thing, it being on a private wiki), and the page itself is OOC. You do not have to find out about its existence IC. The information on it is obtainable IC from tabloids, "dockside gossip", etc - and is often misleading and sometimes factually wrong. But it offers you a way to ask.
4. Spying on other RP organizations and pirates is surprisingly easy to do without requiring alts or NPCs. "I asked them" is my main source of intel over the years, I think. Though why would anyone pay to know when PIE directorate holds a meeting is beyond me.
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4. Spying on other RP organizations and pirates is surprisingly easy to do without requiring alts or NPCs. "I asked them" is my main source of intel over the years, I think. Though why would anyone pay to know when PIE directorate holds a meeting is beyond me.
That's my primary source of intel too! Even some EM pilots seem to be quite willing to tell me all kinds of stuff.
However, I'm not often asked stuff IC, and I've not gotten much feedback out of any of my 'schemes' unless I made them public.
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However, I'm not often asked stuff IC...
Ditto. But I think it's because people fear my characters will actually answer the questions. :P
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Ask Dossie a question IC and she'll answer. Whether you like those answers is another thing entirely.
By the way, I'd like a bowler and a trilby. Good hats.
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I was thinking about this the other day, and how it relates to the current RP 'scene'.
As an example, on the one hand, we have Nauplius, who I think it is fair to say, is definitely wearing a hat. There are a lot of threads on the IGS, and occasionally some argument in the Summit channel, as a result.
However, much of it is criticism about "attention-seeking", or about the "futility" of becoming involved (game mechanics/capsuleer mechanics). People seem to be rather tired of interacting with Nauplius, or about hearing about interacting with Nauplius. Or at least, that's the impression they give in the OOC channels/forums.
On the other hand, there is a corporation, that has an RP thing in space, where people can interact with it, but it isn't trumpeted from all corners on the IGS, so hardly anyone has heard about it. This would be an entirely in-character approach, given the nature of that corporation's RP.
And yet, the OOC channels accuse that corporation of "not doing anything in space".
People talk about "go out and create things if you want people to get involved", while criticising "attention seeking behaviour". If you do something, but don't wear the hat, then nobody hears about it, nobody gets involved, and not a lot happens, and it is demoralising. If you do wear the hat, then everybody hears about it, and many people complain, and it is still demoralising.
Resolve this conundrum.
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Suddenly, why Morwen sits on my head hatlike becomes much clearer ;)
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Probably because you have people that will get annoyed pretty fast by vitriolic and hyperactive hardline characters while other people will get annoyed at people being too quiet, which they see close enough to "doing nothing".
tl;dr : you will always have some people complaining about other people, no matter what.
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On the other hand, there is a corporation, that has an RP thing in space, where people can interact with it, but it isn't trumpeted from all corners on the IGS, so hardly anyone has heard about it. This would be an entirely in-character approach, given the nature of that corporation's RP.
And yet, the OOC channels accuse that corporation of "not doing anything in space".
This is a new concept for me, but I believe I tried to sidestep the issue of 'hat wearing' back when Dessau was hunting for Seneun. Des is always looking for new agents, people who have agendas and indicate their actions, typically through GalNet. In order to keep things IC, Des would read the IGS and made contact with more than a dozen individuals who displayed some measure of capability in helping him find Seneun.
The approach didn't work out. Des isn't going to create a public advert: "spies needed - lone wolf operative seeks evidence in corporate-sponsored murder plot - EVEmail me for details", and I'm not going to use OOC information to try to drive my small corner of the content spectrum.
Even given that failure on my part, I continue to use that approach as it's the only one I've found so far that fits the character.
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Resolve this conundrum.
It's a simple solution that works for me but other's mileage might vary:
It's a hobby and a game - something I spend time on to relax with. I play it however I want to and tend not to give a damn about what others might OOCly think of my playstyle or indeed me in general.
If I'm enjoying the experience I consider my sub money well spent. If others enjoy interacting with me that's great, but it's never a prime concern.
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People have already mentioned the main cause of this issue, so I won't dwell on the fact that telling people is pretty much the only way to put things out there in a game of textual RP. I find it more interesting that anyone actually does tell other people in EVE about their schemes and plans. Because the typical response of EVE players is to plot to ruin anything they can for other EVE players, it stands to reason that the only schemes one would share are the ones they intend to fail gloriously, in hopes of perhaps some news coverage or some such. Anything that a player might want to actually turn out well would only be shared with a tiny handful of close friends (and even they tend to screw you over from time to time) or would simply be played out with alts as a one-man show.
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People have already mentioned the main cause of this issue, so I won't dwell on the fact that telling people is pretty much the only way to put things out there in a game of textual RP. I find it more interesting that anyone actually does tell other people in EVE about their schemes and plans. Because the typical response of EVE players is to plot to ruin anything they can for other EVE players, it stands to reason that the only schemes one would share are the ones they intend to fail gloriously, in hopes of perhaps some news coverage or some such. Anything that a player might want to actually turn out well would only be shared with a tiny handful of close friends (and even they tend to screw you over from time to time) or would simply be played out with alts as a one-man show.
Elmund's RP is never anything grand. He faffs about in IGS OR he murder-death-kill someone in space, or at least try to. The MDK side he doesn't advertise.
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It's always been incredibly difficult in EVE to want a thing or event to happen dynamically vs the amount of people that need to know about the thing for it to actually happen at all.
One one end you have the more 'realistic' RP end of the spectrum; sharing little, dropping tiny, tiny hints about things, hoping people will take some RP bait and investigate of their own volition a bit more.
Unfortunately the pool of RPers is smaller and smaller, the time investment that sort of thing requires easily gets to be too much for other people, and your best laid plans end up stalling and going nowhere.
Then the other end of the spectrum, you basically have to shout from the highest mountaintop PLOT PLOT PLOT HERE. COME PARTICIPATE. And even then your turnout or interest will be less than you had hoped.
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I'm not sure how EVE's RP community handles things, but I've never had a problem with arranging things OOC. The even best OOC laid RP plans can go awry once characters actually talk about it IC, so there's only so much meta game that ends up happening in the end beyond getting duders in a room together, which is the hardest part. Arranging this or that scene or event this ensures that people have each other to play with, and the 'game' of it is entirely in the way it plays out - rather than struggling to interest others by casual drops (which happens naturally too of course). Relying on only that though just makes it just that much harder to connect, to me, in an arena where that's already difficult. I don't think I've played with any of you. \o. o\??
To be more clear, to own a character that wishes to create content by being dastardly, (or more realistically, by being sociologically/morally unsound to another group) I don't really see a reason for the player himself not to go, "Hey, so, I don't know how you guys want to decide you heard about this, but my duder is up to some shenanigans you might not be entirely okay with today shh". (Rather than have said character announce his plan IC, which we can all agree is ridiculous unless you are Naupilus-the-mad which I suppose happens now and then, particularly with the eccentric Capsuleer population). Then, everybody can just decide things got leaked a certain way and show up - as somebody pointed out, no large, contestable plot doesn't have people who have to know about it, technicians jabbering and whatnot. We're talking about such large scales all the time that just about anything is possible when it comes to the small stuff.
One can argue that then, the chances of us hearing about it is just as scaled, but at some point we have to decide whether we want this content or not. I'll take a bit of fudging here and there to get a good scene in. There's already a certain level of fiction happening, so from here it's all as good as the RPers in the scene itself to create believeability.
I guess organizing things this way presupposes that people can handle OOC knowlege vs. IC knowlege, and that 'EVE is real' and then we coated it in a veneer of fiction for our further amusement and goal-making - but everybody here probably is likely already on that train. I thought that's what the Backstage was for, initially - the organizing of getting RP together, and that's why I joined ; j. But there's history here, and I'm a newbro to the scene. \ o.o / I know nothing, it's just my take.
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Relying on only that though just makes it just that much harder to connect, to me, in an arena where that's already difficult. I don't think I've played with any of you. \o. o\??
In my experience, this is in large part due to the different factions not interacting frequently except periodic snark on the IGS. People have become a bit tired of the standard arguments, IC-hate, and so forth. They begin to avoid the other factions significantly. This is also encouraged these days by the increased IC ridicule of militia involvement. That was the primary instigator for interfaction discussion, but now that every argument has been had several times over and there is also an increasing group of people that consider the entire proxy war to be droll and banal it just makes it that much less likely for different factions to interact. They begin to veer towards doing their own thing.
Characters like DK also do not help the situation because every single public situation they show up to will turn into the exact same thing due to that sort of character saying and doing the exact same thing over and over and over and over.
And on top of it all, when there is so little World News to react to, it can stifle much faction interaction because there simply is not much to discuss or talk about. Go to the World News page and look at how many articles we are getting this year compared to last year. It does not help.
All of that said, I hope to see an increased Gallente presence on the IGS and elsewhere. It has been a relatively quiet (maybe we are just loud . . . >.>) faction for too long.
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This is also encouraged these days by the increased IC ridicule of militia involvement.1 That was the primary instigator for interfaction discussion2, but now that every argument has been had several times over and there is also an increasing group of people that consider the entire proxy war to be droll and banal it just makes it that much less likely for different factions to interact. They begin to veer towards doing their own thing.
1- This ridicule has been going on since the very first day that the Empyrean Age expansion launched. If it has increased over the years, this is only attributable to the near-total lack of development both gameplay- and lore-wise that has come out of it, which does nothing but serve to lend strength to the argument that participating in the proxy war is ultimately pointless. (Yes, one could argue that full-scale war between the empires would be orders of magnitude worse, but the empires themselves have a vested interest in either maintaining this "Pendulum War" or reverting to the earlier peacetime/cold-war status quo, and so this will likely never happen. Thus, FW will continue onward with its participants being little more than (un)witting pawns of the empires, making the masses happy that "something is being done about the <faction> menace!" whether or not it actually has any real, tangible effect outside of the restricted warfare zones.
2- Wrong, flat-out. The original instigator of interfaction discussion and interaction was groups of players acting for or against other groups of players outside of the FW framework. The addition of FW nearly killed off these interactions, because there was a sudden and massive wave of "if you're not in FW, you're not real loyalists!" being thrown at people. All despite the existence of cases of well-known player entities having wardecs that ran for multiple years continuously (PIE vs RE-AW: 2009/01/08 -> 2011/04/30 and PIE vs U'K: 2005/11/30 -> 2008/06/09, for example). FW also killed off a lot of intra-faction conflict because suddenly if you weren't flying in FW and being friendly with those people you had been rattling sabers or outright shooting at not even the day before you were doing it wrong, regardless of how justified your conflict was according to PF and prior events.
Characters like DK also do not help the situation because every single public situation they show up to will turn into the exact same thing due to that sort of character saying and doing the exact same thing over and over and over and over.
No disagreement here. :roll:
And on top of it all, when there is so little World News to react to, it can stifle much faction interaction because there simply is not much to discuss or talk about. Go to the World News page and look at how many articles we are getting this year compared to last year. It does not help.
There are reasons for this, none of them anything we can do about save, well, kicking up a fuss at the upper levels of CCP management and potentially looking like a bunch of whiny shitheels in the process. Just look at who's left the lore-related teams over the last couple of years, whether by firing/layoffs or by promotions or department transfer.
All of that said, I hope to see an increased Gallente presence on the IGS and elsewhere. It has been a relatively quiet (maybe we are just loud . . . >.>) faction for too long.
In all the time I've been playing EVE, "loud" is the last word I'd ever use to describe the Gallente roleplayers. (Except Seri.) Whether this is because all of their noisy times were before *I* started or because they were never noisy to begin with, I do not know. But it is ironic how much bitching there is about the Gallente when they're, well, even quieter than the Amarr.
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1- This ridicule has been going on since the very first day that the Empyrean Age expansion launched. If it has increased over the years, this is only attributable to the near-total lack of development both gameplay- and lore-wise that has come out of it, which does nothing but serve to lend strength to the argument that participating in the proxy war is ultimately pointless. (Yes, one could argue that full-scale war between the empires would be orders of magnitude worse, but the empires themselves have a vested interest in either maintaining this "Pendulum War" or reverting to the earlier peacetime/cold-war status quo, and so this will likely never happen. Thus, FW will continue onward with its participants being little more than (un)witting pawns of the empires, making the masses happy that "something is being done about the <faction> menace!" whether or not it actually has any real, tangible effect outside of the restricted warfare zones.
Agreed.
2- Wrong, flat-out. The original instigator of interfaction discussion and interaction was groups of players acting for or against other groups of players outside of the FW framework. The addition of FW nearly killed off these interactions, because there was a sudden and massive wave of "if you're not in FW, you're not real loyalists!" being thrown at people. All despite the existence of cases of well-known player entities having wardecs that ran for multiple years continuously (PIE vs RE-AW: 2009/01/08 -> 2011/04/30 and PIE vs U'K: 2005/11/30 -> 2008/06/09, for example). FW also killed off a lot of intra-faction conflict because suddenly if you weren't flying in FW and being friendly with those people you had been rattling sabers or outright shooting at not even the day before you were doing it wrong, regardless of how justified your conflict was according to PF and prior events.
I should have qualified my statement in more recent terms. I agree with your assessment about what the consequences of FW were, but after that happened the increased ridicule of FW has helped kill off the remaining interaction the factions had through FW. I also agree that ridicule has plenty of justification.
In all the time I've been playing EVE, "loud" is the last word I'd ever use to describe the Gallente roleplayers. (Except Seri.) Whether this is because all of their noisy times were before *I* started or because they were never noisy to begin with, I do not know. But it is ironic how much bitching there is about the Gallente when they're, well, even quieter than the Amarr.
When I made my aside about 'us' being loud I meant the Caldari. Yes, the Gallente have typically been quiet. But it is not hard to be seen as quiet relative to the Caldari bloc in the past.
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There were other Gallente RPers than Seri?
Huh, live and learn.
ETA: Ooooh! Oooh! There was Soter! Holy shit, there were two.
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I don't think whether you were referring to Caldari or Gallente matters much, Jace, if the Gallente aren't loud you aren't going to notice them if the Caldari are being loud anyway. :P
(And with how loud the Caldari have been of late? Wouldn't notice them even if Seri and Soter were going full tilt...)
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I don't think whether you were referring to Caldari or Gallente matters much, Jace, if the Gallente aren't loud you aren't going to notice them if the Caldari are being loud anyway. :P
(And with how loud the Caldari have been of late? Wouldn't notice them even if Seri and Soter were going full tilt...)
Right, that was my point. I was sarcastically saying that we are loud as shit. You could combine Seri, Soter, and Jason Gallente and it would be a drop in a bucket amidst the glorious heiian screaming.
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Are the Caldari all that loud though? I'm of course discounting DK here. If I give the Amarr side of things the same courtesy with Nappy, I still see more activity on that side of things than from the Caldari. On the IGS that is, what happens in game I have no sodding idea other than brief ten minute idling in some off-the-beaten-path channels during skillchanges.
ETA: Speaking of, Command Ships 5 today. Only three years too late.
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Are the Caldari all that loud though? I'm of course discounting DK here. If I give the Amarr side of things the same courtesy with Nappy, I still see more activity on that side of things than from the Caldari. On the IGS that is, what happens in game I have no sodding idea other than brief ten minute idling in some off-the-beaten-path channels during skillchanges.
We are quieter than we used to be. I would say the most consistent loyalists I see on the IGS recently are Amarr. But that is largely because Pieter seems to be taking another break from public ICness and because people are responding to Naup.
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They're not ~that~ loud.
However, lately there have been a number of Caldari (probably 3-4 of them, who all know who they are, and since they're alluded to or blatantly called out in the IGS thread, I won't do that here) who have frequently been inclined to shove their noses into threads and derail the shit out of them with "ERMAGERD TEH STAET SO GLURIUS" spam even if they have NOTHING to do with anything even remotely related to the State. Which, let's be fair, is a stereotypically Gallente behavior.
Which is why someone made a thread complaining about it on the IGS.
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They're not ~that~ loud.
However, lately there have been a number of Caldari (probably 3-4 of them, who all know who they are, and since they're alluded to or blatantly called out in the IGS thread, I won't do that here) who have frequently been inclined to shove their noses into threads and derail the shit out of them with "ERMAGERD TEH STAET SO GLURIUS" spam even if they have NOTHING to do with anything even remotely related to the State. Which, let's be fair, is a stereotypically Gallente behavior.
Which is why someone made a thread complaining about it on the IGS.
I think that could be wittled (widdled?) down to 2.5. The half being one that is not so much YAY STATE as YAY ME. And frankly, I put nearly as much blame on the same couple of people who continually respond to them in the exact same way that solidifies any derailment. Some people are unbelievably easy to ignore if left untrolled.
Edit: The above statement will not help me get people to join in on a Caldari venue. Off to the alts I gooooo. *flaps like a bird*
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Yeah, I'm half-tempted to start calling thread derailment "Claudia Kimming" on the IGS at this point. :P
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Yeah, I'm half-tempted to start calling thread derailment "Claudia Kimming" on the IGS at this point. :P
Yeah. As soon as one of those responds to the other, I abandon a thread and do not come back. This means abandoning virtually all threads within forty-eight hours of them being made.
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Yeah, I'm half-tempted to start calling thread derailment "Claudia Kimming" on the IGS at this point. :P
Yeah. As soon as one of those responds to the other, I abandon a thread and do not come back. This means abandoning virtually all threads within forty-eight hours of them being made.
[spoiler](http://static.gamespot.com/uploads/ignore_jpg_scale_super/357/3571857/2524077-6443287939-Aband.gif)[/spoiler]
For a while there I thought I was the only one that felt like this.
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In my experience, this is in large part due to the different factions not interacting frequently except periodic snark on the IGS. People have become a bit tired of the standard arguments, IC-hate, and so forth. They begin to avoid the other factions significantly. (...) They begin to veer towards doing their own thing.
From the outside looking in, it seems that a great deal of the loyalist activity must take place on FW killboards and/or behind closed doors, though there are exceptions, I'm sure. Perhaps this goes back to the points in other threads about the 'been-done' reception by veteran RPers. The rehashing of the slavery debate or the pitfalls of individual rights begin to pale to more nuanced personal interactions or somesuch, it just happens that the new blood might find it difficult to make inroads within that realm as the 'standard arguments' are more accessible and apparent in the backlog PF.
Characters like DK also do not help the situation because every single public situation they show up to will turn into the exact same thing due to that sort of character saying and doing the exact same thing over and over and over and over.
Among the people that are bothered by those posts, was there ever a concerted effort to Palin-ify these characters? Just simply agree to ignore every one of their posts for a month?
All of that said, I hope to see an increased Gallente presence on the IGS and elsewhere. It has been a relatively quiet (maybe we are just loud . . . >.>) faction for too long.
The Asymmetrics manifesto does need a September entry...
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There were other Gallente RPers than Seri?
Huh, live and learn.
ETA: Ooooh! Oooh! There was Soter! Holy shit, there were two.
*hits Miz with a pillow* Silly thing, once upon a time, there were lots!
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Yeah. As soon as one of those responds to the other, I abandon a thread and do not come back. This means abandoning virtually all threads within forty-eight hours of them being made.
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Among the people that are bothered by those posts, was there ever a concerted effort to Palin-ify these characters? Just simply agree to ignore every one of their posts for a month?
There are many of us that ignore everything they say. But there will always be the people that enjoy the chance to hear themselves speak every time they respond. Or they are just bored.
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There definitely were more Gallente RPers once upon a time. I remember everything from dropping Esna into a Gallente discussion channel for a debate on self-determination vs. subservience to a higher authority, to one particular guy (name since forgotten) who was every bit as vocal as Kim and perhaps even more fantastically racist against Caldari - so they had a fair bit of variety as well.
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Among the people that are bothered by those posts, was there ever a concerted effort to Palin-ify these characters? Just simply agree to ignore every one of their posts for a month?
There are many of us that ignore everything they say. But there will always be the people that enjoy the chance to hear themselves speak every time they respond. Or they are just bored.
Snark-bait is irresistible.
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They were plenty over the years, but not all of them at a time...
Alain Octirant / Hans Nardieu / Bastian Valoron being among my favorites.
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There were other Gallente RPers than Seri?
Huh, live and learn.
ETA: Ooooh! Oooh! There was Soter! Holy shit, there were two.
*hits Miz with a pillow* Silly thing, once upon a time, there were lots!
Lots, many or a bunch?
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They were plenty over the years, but not all of them at a time...
Alain Octirant / Hans Nardieu / Bastian Valoron being among my favorites.
I always felt his name should have been Alain Octorant, and that he should have eight different aggressive complaints in every post.
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I have always felt that Katrina Oniseki's name should have been Katrina Oniseksi and that every one of your appearance would be disguised as a sexy japanese Oni.
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I don't have any particular thoughts on Kat's name other than my brain currently insisting on horrifying me with the lyrics "I say Kat kat, in the butt, I say kat kat, in the butt?" etc. I can't quite tell how this has come to be, but I suspect the blackest of sorcery.
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There were other Gallente RPers than Seri?
Huh, live and learn.
ETA: Ooooh! Oooh! There was Soter! Holy shit, there were two.
*hits Miz with a pillow* Silly thing, once upon a time, there were lots!
Lots, many or a bunch?
Hrm. I'm not sure what the collective term for Gallente RPers is. A gaggle? A giggle?
But there were all of the folks in Strix (Mark 1), and the RPers who used to be in Phoenix Wing and other bits of the former Acheron Federation, and I know I'm probably missing others.
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The [EL-G] was created by Seri and though he's not really around anymore[?], the active members basically all fed RP. Soter also handles himself in character except when too cumbersome, as he leads the GMVA. So I wouldn't say he isn't RPing - I just haven't seen him outside of that sphere. I wasn't even aware he ever was!
I think the problem is that - generally speaking - the other empires take so poorly to Gallente presence that I suspect a lot of us just stopped travelling, so to speak. :p I've decided to stick my neck out and let it get chopped off if I have to, at this point. Undocking the RP ship.
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<3 Acheron Federation
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It's always been incredibly difficult in EVE to want a thing or event to happen dynamically vs the amount of people that need to know about the thing for it to actually happen at all.
One one end you have the more 'realistic' RP end of the spectrum; sharing little, dropping tiny, tiny hints about things, hoping people will take some RP bait and investigate of their own volition a bit more.
[..]
Then the other end of the spectrum, you basically have to shout from the highest mountaintop PLOT PLOT PLOT HERE. COME PARTICIPATE. And even then your turnout or interest will be less than you had hoped.
I've done both options, sort of.
When it comes to shouting, I was indeed expecting at least a little more interest in digging up dirt, especially because I OOCly invited the press to do so, but if the media aren't even willing to investigate a little, who will?
Interestingly, the "realistic" approach has brought Ché closer to having a side of his character exposed that he would rather not have exposed, multiple times. Sometimes it really surprised me that it had happened.
But most times, I avoid the whole dynamic vs. plotbaiting thing by having my character have goals as opposed to having goals for my character.
Not that there aren't any things that I would like to happen, but the suspense of not knowing which ones of these things will happen, or when, or if any of them will happen at all is quite enjoyable for me.
Sometimes, when a secret comes out, it can be more fun if a character has been able to keep it secret for years instead of months. Longtime friends of this character could have a "I thought I knew her/him. WTF?!" experience that would be stronger than if they had been friends for a short time.
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Down with Gallente hedonism!
Nah not really. It would be nice if more Fed RPers were out there but oh wells, I'm not complaining too much.
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Down with Gallente hedonism!
Nah not really. It would be nice if more Fed RPers were out there but oh wells, I'm not complaining too much.
For the Staaaaaaate.
We should totally turn every Backstage thread into a Caldari thread.
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Down with Gallente hedonism!
Nah not really. It would be nice if more Fed RPers were out there but oh wells, I'm not complaining too much.
For the Staaaaaaate.
We should totally turn every Backstage thread into a Caldari thread.
Bittervet post - it's already been done before -
This thread is now about enslaved Matari.
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Down with Gallente hedonism!
Nah not really. It would be nice if more Fed RPers were out there but oh wells, I'm not complaining too much.
For the Staaaaaaate.
We should totally turn every Backstage thread into a Caldari thread.
Bittervet post - it's already been done before -
This thread is now about enslaved Matari.
So has prefacing your response with your bittervetness. So there. Hmph.
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Well I could break out the ponies if you want some new old stuff.
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Well I could break out the ponies if you want some new old stuff.
I think your sig does that just fine.
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Well I could break out the ponies if you want some new old stuff.
I think your sig does that just fine.
You've seen nothing yet. Anyway, stole yer avatar because Miz.
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I don't have any particular thoughts on Kat's name other than my brain currently insisting on horrifying me with the lyrics "I say Kat kat, in the butt, I say kat kat, in the butt?" etc. I can't quite tell how this has come to be, but I suspect the blackest of sorcery.
Youwanna do it in mah butt, in mah butt, YOU WANNA DO IT IN MAH BUTT, IN MAH BUTT??!? Ooookaaayyy then!
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Your sig pic has never been more appropriate, and mine has never been this inappropriate.
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Miz, your avatar keeps throwing me for a loop. "Hey, I never said tha-- oh."
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Finder's keepers. Besides, you have to admit I make it look good.
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CTCS has had a POS in operation for two months.
CTCS has had numerous propaganda transmitters (renamed mobile depots) in place for almost as long.
None of you knew this. Because we didn't put on the RP hat and write thread after thread after thread on the IGS, and post about it incessantly in The Summit.
So.