Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => Moderation Discussion => Topic started by: Khloe on 14 Feb 2013, 11:00
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I have a suggestion for you guys: make the moderation discussion section exclusive to rule change recommendations, and remove the ability for members to openly question moderation decisions.
I understand for your desire for transparency, especially in explaining why a member of your moderation team has made their choice, but as clearly displayed in the number of 'why was I moderated?' threads, the explanation rarely results in understanding between the two parties. Compound this misunderstanding with the interjection of numerous third parties with their own agendas and bias into the 'debate' and suddenly the discussion balloons into something else entirely. I'm not saying that moderation shouldn't be questioned, but a private discussion between the concerned parties and the moderation team should not only satisfy any questions or issues made but also avoid unnecessary debate.
Thanks for reading.
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I kinda agree with this. Perhaps moderation issues can be privately dealt with?
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I'm personally not comfortable with doing this given the current system we have.
Not a fan of using PMs for it, because they make it a little difficult (even with reply-all) to have a conversation with multiple parties - and rather than have someone go circling around from one moderator to the next if they don't like the answer, it'd be better to have them all able to respond right away. Not to mention, it opens a whole new can of worms given the rules technically apply to PMs too, and there's no really effective way of handling that with our current system.
If there were a way to, say, appeal a moderation decision that created a thread that only that person and the moderation staff could see or participate in, then I'd go for it. There might be an SMF addon for that, actually, but Misan's the one who usually handles forum software updates and the like.
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Honestly, I think that the number of "why was I modded" posts and the interjection of third parties is a symptom hinting at some deeper problem, I think mainly differences and conflicts between cultures of language. I have been genuinely surprised by some decisions to moderate one or the other post or by the outrage caused by some statements that I felt to be completely harmless.
I don't think that these conflicts would be solved by removing the ability to debate moderation decisions that touch our cultural sensitivities.
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I think it's become a bit of a cultural fad (#OccupyBackstage) among some circles here to post a thread about why they got moderated for fairly obvious behavior, and seem to jump at the opportunity to call out the moderators for perceived slights. Most of these dramatic threads seem to revolve around Morwen's uniquely blunt way of handling offenders.
There are a lot of legitimate threads when asking about moderator decisions, but there are others of them that are really a bit silly.
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Well Kat, that might be another culture thing but a mod breaking the rules repeatedly because some users are being jerks does not deserve a mod position in my book.
As a mod team, you can just ban them and be done with it if they are pissing you off that much, and not making them right by lowering yourself on the same level.
Honestly, I think that the number of "why was I modded" posts and the interjection of third parties is a symptom hinting at some deeper problem, I think mainly differences and conflicts between cultures of language. I have been genuinely surprised by some decisions to moderate one or the other post or by the outrage caused by some statements that I felt to be completely harmless.
I don't think that these conflicts would be solved by removing the ability to debate moderation decisions that touch our cultural sensitivities.
That.
I sometimes feel like I am hitting a cultural wall.
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I think it's become a bit of a cultural fad (#OccupyBackstage) among some circles here to post a thread about why they got moderated for fairly obvious behavior, and seem to jump at the opportunity to call out the moderators for perceived slights. Most of these dramatic threads seem to revolve around Morwen's uniquely blunt way of handling offenders.
There are a lot of legitimate threads when asking about moderator decisions, but there are others of them that are really a bit silly.
If that's so, maybe a less uniquely blunt and more polite style of moderation would solve the issue of this 'fad'?
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As a mod team, you can just ban them and be done with it if they are pissing you off that much
See, this is my view. However, Morwen and Silver are too nice, and they think that permabans should be for cause and follow warnings and a pattern of behavior and shit.
Maybe they'd let me apply my moderation style to people who volunteered for it?
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Never understood the complaints, myself. Backstage's rules have always been pretty clear. If there's a problem, those who don't like it are always welcome to revive Chatsubo or something.
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Never understood the complaints, myself. Backstage's rules have always been pretty clear. If there's a problem, those who don't like it are always welcome to revive Chatsubo or something.
"If you don't like it as-is, plz go back to the shit-hole we all left for good reasons, k tnx bye."
Some people see no issue with the mods, others feel differently, and react to it. Telling people who feel differently to yourself about this to go back to Chatsubo is down-right cruel, you know. :eek:
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Yeah, you're probably right. I spoke in annoyance. No-one should be made to go back to that place.
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It's not a cultural thing, no. I was raised (possibly improperly) to respect authority without much question. If a moderator is abusive, I do my best to avoid that moderator completely, sometimes by avoiding the venue they moderate altogether.
To put that into context, if I found Morwen to be treating me unfairly or abusively, I would stop using Backstage. Morwen can attest to my habit of leaving channels that I have a problem with ingame. I'd do the same here.
This is how I handle authority that's oppressing me, by hiding under the couch. I'm not saying it's the right way to do things, but it's something that I've done for many years, and so I find it strange and aberrant that people so boldly and loudly complain and even attack Morwen for the way he moderates. I understand why, but I just cannot relate to it, because that isn't the way my mind works.
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This is how I handle authority that's oppressing me, by hiding under the couch.
So should make a forum called "the couch" - for those seeking to hide from authority. :cube:
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Thanks for the replies. I'm going to respond to Morwen first because:
If there were a way to, say, appeal a moderation decision that created a thread that only that person and the moderation staff could see or participate in, then I'd go for it. There might be an SMF addon for that, actually, but Misan's the one who usually handles forum software updates and the like.
I agree that my original premise was flawed, and I think this is a great compromise. The question, I suppose, is whether the people who actually run this site are interested in making this change. For all I know you guys enjoy the debate threads!
Honestly, I think that the number of "why was I modded" posts and the interjection of third parties is a symptom hinting at some deeper problem, I think mainly differences and conflicts between cultures of language. I have been genuinely surprised by some decisions to moderate one or the other post or by the outrage caused by some statements that I felt to be completely harmless.
I don't think that these conflicts would be solved by removing the ability to debate moderation decisions that touch our cultural sensitivities.
The goal isn't to 'solve' the problem, but remove the 'white noise' that tends to follow the discussion, from individuals who are rarely directly impacted by moderation but choose to use the opportunity to vent their personal issues with members of the community. I think that's the 'deeper problem' you're referring to.
Some people see no issue with the mods, others feel differently, and react to it. Telling people who feel differently to yourself about this to go back to Chatsubo is down-right cruel, you know. :eek:
You see, I wouldn't have any problem with this because I behave the same way regardless of where I post. The rules aren't the only barrier preventing me from speaking my mind because I can do so without breaking rules. Maybe I'm just lucky, or perhaps it took a bit of practice, but in either case maintaining a personal standard of behavior that can be carried outside the internet has its benefits.
And just to be clear, I'm not saying you're a bad person or 'doing-it-wrong'.
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De Oppresso Liber. As someone that spent the first part of her adult life liberating the oppressed, I am incapable of backing down from what I see as abuse or oppression.
That said, I was in the Marines, so I have a pretty high tolerance for what constitutes abuse.
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That said, I was in the Marines, so I have a pretty high tolerance for what constitutes abuse.
This may actually be part of the "problem" - what one considers to be abusive.
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De Oppresso Liber. As someone that spent the first part of her adult life liberating the oppressed, I am incapable of backing down from what I see as abuse or oppression.
I don't think the extremist regimes of third world countries can be compared to an internet forum moderator saying mean things to you and moving your posts elsewhere.
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What amazes me about this board is that even the tiniest bit of mod action generates a lot of response, blowing things massively out of proportions. No one's being censored, the rules and reasons for moderator action are visible and fairly transparent.
Personally speaking, the outrage done on principle over miniscule things annoys me far more than being (or seeing someone being) modded for what I'd see as a minor infraction or borderline case.
Seriously, all the energy could be put into actually using this forum for discussion about the game, RP or interesting topics.
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Your support is appreciated, Desi. :cube:
It's like that ingame too, and like I said earlier (probably in one of the other threads, I can't keep track anymore), it doesn't matter what the mods do, we're going to get bitched at consistently whether we're right or wrong according to the rules of the forum versions of the rules in people's heads.
If we don't respond to a report, which is always due to moderators deciding not to act, we get bitched at, or accused of "ignoring" reports. If we respond to a report and take action, we get bitched at or accused of bias and of being terrible, horrible people.
The stupid thing about this, as far as I'm concerned, is that the people doing the bitching are largely the same group of posters in both cases. They don't generally give an impression they care about the context, they just want to whine about moderation, so any mod action is fair game for them, no matter how big or how small it is. Then the bandwagoners show up. And then the people who support the mods who crawl out of the woodwork.
And suddenly we have a heap of steaming shit on our hands. I'm not sure "white-knighting over moderation" is a particularly appropriate way to phrase it, but it definitely seems accurate for a lot of cases we see, both ingame and out. (And while it came across that way at first, Vik, you had a legit question that appears to have been answered - in this case I'm referring to everyone else who dogpiled on.)
I've wasted several hours of my time dealing with this shit that could have been spent doing better things, like preparing for Silas' event on Sunday. So have the other mods. This is a thankless volunteer job that we throw hours of our lives into each week, and for what? People to bitch because we told someone to fix their post to meet the rules? That we threw a post in the catacombs because it clearly violated a rule we've had from day one?
People keep whining about the moderation here and ingame being heavy-handed. Some of us remember what Chatsubo was like. Some of us remember what the Summit was like when there were no moderators at all.
Yeah. Bitching for the sake of bitching about sums it up.
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For what it's worth. I've never really have an issue with backstage modding. *shrugs* I should introduce you all to deadtear sometimes.
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As a mod team, you can just ban them and be done with it if they are pissing you off that much
See, this is my view. However, Morwen and Silver are too nice, and they think that permabans should be for cause and follow warnings and a pattern of behavior and shit.
Maybe they'd let me apply my moderation style to people who volunteered for it?
How many warnings do they need ?
I understand that you can not ban someone at the first mistake, and I believe that you can't really ban someone over mistakes he was not even aware of or coming from different perspectives on things, but on clear rules violations, repeatedly...
It's not a cultural thing, no. I was raised (possibly improperly) to respect authority without much question. If a moderator is abusive, I do my best to avoid that moderator completely, sometimes by avoiding the venue they moderate altogether.
To put that into context, if I found Morwen to be treating me unfairly or abusively, I would stop using Backstage. Morwen can attest to my habit of leaving channels that I have a problem with ingame. I'd do the same here.
This is how I handle authority that's oppressing me, by hiding under the couch. I'm not saying it's the right way to do things, but it's something that I've done for many years, and so I find it strange and aberrant that people so boldly and loudly complain and even attack Morwen for the way he moderates. I understand why, but I just cannot relate to it, because that isn't the way my mind works.
I could do the same since most of this does not even concern me the slighest, and my issues are really secondary to the global approval I have always had on backstage (at the contrary of OOC/Summit).
- First, I have that strong sense of getting really annoyed when rules are not applied to the ones issuing them. That is, however, not important and I can get over it.
- Second, backstage is the only OOC out of game medium where RPers can gather and speak and the general level of the community is good and mature, which is already something. If I do as you say and leave because I have an issue with a mod, where do I go ? Same case for OOC/Summit. Actually I already did that 6 months ago. It made me leave the game since I was cut off everything.
Seriously, all the energy could be put into actually using this forum for discussion about the game, RP or interesting topics.
One doesn't prevent the other.
Anyway, you generally start to inquire about a minor thing that you still feel is important, then people disagree, then it gets blown out of proportion... All sides are responsible eventually, even if that was not what was expected in the first place.
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And suddenly we have a heap of steaming shit on our hands. I'm not sure "white-knighting over moderation" is a particularly appropriate way to phrase it, but it definitely seems accurate for a lot of cases we see, both ingame and out. (And while it came across that way at first, Vik, you had a legit question that appears to have been answered - in this case I'm referring to everyone else who dogpiled on.)
Yeah, and I can come off much more aggressively than I mean to. In real life I tend to be fairly blunt, and I have to moderate my actual words in situations where a mild voice or a bit of dry tone won't come across.
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It's not a cultural thing, no. I was raised (possibly improperly) to respect authority without much question. If a moderator is abusive, I do my best to avoid that moderator completely, sometimes by avoiding the venue they moderate altogether.
To put that into context, if I found Morwen to be treating me unfairly or abusively, I would stop using Backstage. Morwen can attest to my habit of leaving channels that I have a problem with ingame. I'd do the same here.
This is how I handle authority that's oppressing me, by hiding under the couch. I'm not saying it's the right way to do things, but it's something that I've done for many years, and so I find it strange and aberrant that people so boldly and loudly complain and even attack Morwen for the way he moderates. I understand why, but I just cannot relate to it, because that isn't the way my mind works.
I could do the same since most of this does not even concern me the slighest, and my issues are really secondary to the global approval I have always had on backstage (at the contrary of OOC/Summit).
- First, I have that strong sense of getting really annoyed when rules are not applied to the ones issuing them. That is, however, not important and I can get over it.
- Second, backstage is the only OOC out of game medium where RPers can gather and speak and the general level of the community is good and mature, which is already something. If I do as you say and leave because I have an issue with a mod, where do I go ? Same case for OOC/Summit. Actually I already did that 6 months ago. It made me leave the game since I was cut off everything.
I was explaining my habits, not suggesting you follow them.