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General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 28 Mar 2012, 20:33
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http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28576
Just goes to show there is some kharma out there after all, and the idiotic behavior most of us had been making fun of was noticed by a great many others as well.
So just remember that things do balance out in some small ways now and then :)
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I'm actually not terribly surprised. Much as Mittani likes to hem and haw about destroying the game/other players, CCP could as much allow this to simply pass by without punishing him somehow as they could ignore another t20-esque dev bias incident. They cannot appear to tolerate any kind of use of CCP assets to explicitely target another player, much less such an obviously beyond-the-EULA violation as what occured.
That he was allowed to basically step down with dignity rather than being forcibly removed from the CSM (6 as well as 7) is what is honestly surprising to me.
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This is utterly moronic by CCP. EULA applies outside of game now!
Waiting for my ban for impersonating Mittani at fanfest, which is also against the EULA if done in-game.
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30-day ban for someone who runs a large alliance; time for a test of trust among his Lts. If he has good Lts, it is insignificant as he continues to runs operations via various forums.
I think there might be potential out-of-game consequences for encouraging out-of-game the stalking of a particular user - especially with the intent for that person to kill themselves.
Does the EULA apply; doubtful. If so desired, The Mittani can probably pursue legal recourse over it.
Did panel members have to sign a piece of paperwork that applied the EULA to the presentation?
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For those of us confused - what is the big issue here? Who did what?
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During the alliance member panel discussion, Mittani related a story of a person who ran a significant ice-mining operation with multiple accounts which goons ganked repeatedly; he was later also scammed out of 1.3b by goons. In response, the guy running the operation made some noises at them suggesting he'd been having a hard time in RL as well and was possibly suicidal.
The thing that people took issue with is that Mittani then gave this guy's ingame name and ecouraged people to continue griefing him.
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For those of us confused - what is the big issue here? Who did what?
The 'alliance panel' at this year's fanfest was streamed live to the interwebs. At the panel various alliance leaders give powerpoint presentations and talk about their groups, and answer a few questions. Some presentations were good, some were full of drunken children laughing to each other about how awesome they are. http://www.evefleet.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/XzZc9.png
Basically the goons demolished some guy's mining career and seemed to have given the man a rough time, and in order to feel cool the Goon leader gave out his name to several thousand eve players and suggested other people harass him, too. Oh and I think he told the guy to kill himself.
There's a few issues that overlap, but it generally comes down to just because you -can- be a dick, should you? It's not about internet spaceships, I just saw a bunch of people demeaning
themselves on television and acting like proper fools *shrug*
The poor bastard losing sleep over his internet mining spaceships being blown up does need to HTFU perhaps, but that doesn't excuse someone acting un-classy, yes?
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Unclassy at fanfest, now a bannable offense in game!
Hell one of my corpmates vomited violently and repeatedly in the hot tub on our floor. Classy indeed!
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There's a pretty wide margin between being a sloppy drunk and suggesting someone kill oneself.
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Indeed.
Had this simply been a mocking of a miner who whined after his internet spaceships were violenced, it'd have been laughed at heartily at best, resulted in a "*shrug* Well, don't feed the trolls next time..." in the middle, and simply invoked an eyeroll and a :goons: at worst.
When the possibility of RL effects came into play, however, it crosses the line from "Well, you fed the trolls in a game full of them..." to "Dude, not cool."
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This is utterly moronic by CCP. EULA applies outside of game now!
That section of the Terms of Service (http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/terms.asp), incorporated by reference into the EULA (http://community.eveonline.com/pnp/eula.asp), does; yes:
You may not abuse, harass or threaten another player or authorized representative of CCP, including customer service personnel and volunteers.
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Lets save the outrage for something thats actually outrageous. Of course the EULA applies when a man stands up at a CCP event, representing a body thats associated with EVE and CCP, and basically says " hey everyone, break the EULA!" What else could CCP do?
By his own admission, Mittens acted like a bullying douchebag. You do not, in fact, have the right to act like a bullying douchebag, even while drunk. Mittens said as much, to his credit.
Much like in EVE, in real life actions have consequences.
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The EULA covers both in game and acts on their website.
Considering the entire thing was streamed live on EVE Tv :bash:
He was stupid for doing it, but now 1/6th of the highest turnout just became null and void before the term even starts. Wonder if there's grounds to request a recall.
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This story made me grin. The banning thing, obviously.
And no, CCP didn't trash 10k votes. Mittens did. Tough break, they should have voted for someone who would have been more responsible.
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This story made me grin. The banning thing, obviously.
And no, CCP didn't trash 10k votes. Mittens did. Tough break, they should have voted for someone who would have been more responsible.
But he resigned from the Chairman position, he still is/will be in CSM so those votes arent waisted ?
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This story made me grin. The banning thing, obviously.
And no, CCP didn't trash 10k votes. Mittens did. Tough break, they should have voted for someone who would have been more responsible.
But he resigned from the Chairman position, he still is/will be in CSM so those votes arent waisted ?
Not quite, he resigned from the chairman position himself, and then CCP removed him from the CSM as per He has also resigned from his position as Chairman of CSM 6 and has forfeited his right to serve on CSM 7
from the second dev blog.
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This is utterly moronic by CCP. EULA applies outside of game now!
Waiting for my ban for impersonating Mittani at fanfest, which is also against the EULA if done in-game.
Load of BS, and you know it.
Besides, CCP has every right to simply ban you without giving any reason. It's their house.
About what Mittens did: It's more than just calling out to harass a player, it was literally "And if you want to make him kill himself, that's his name", but that's covered in the devblogs.
I've got respect for him that he wrote an apology and stepped down on his own accord, and maybe that's why he's so damn lucky that the ban is just for 30 days.
Loosing the chairman position is a must, but I'm not so sold about loosing the CSM7 position. On the other hand he can run for CSM8 again.
Unpleasant decisions for everyone involved, I guess.
All the drama about "Fanfest 2013 will be boring now" is absurd, too.
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In a lot of countries, including my own, Mittani's action was a crime. A 30 day ban is worthless. The apology is quite simply not sincere. No one takes a 180 degree turn like that entirely out of the blue. He saw the potential consequences of his actions and started doing damage control. He should have been banned for life and charges should have been made.
"Unclassy in fanfest" being a bannable offense is something I would be against too. Being a criminal at fanfest should be a permaban offense.
Ah well, it just confirms that goons are weaponsgrade douchebottles whether they're at the bottom or the top of the pyramid.
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Unclassy at fanfest, now a bannable offense in game!
Hell one of my corpmates vomited violently and repeatedly in the hot tub on our floor. Classy indeed!
It's all about context, Bach. :)
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Ah well, it just confirms that goons are weaponsgrade douchebottles whether they're at the bottom or the top of the pyramid.
Anyone who needs confirmation of this is either blind, deaf and dumb, or not paying attention, tbh. At least sometimes the douchebottle-ness is funny. Raining penises in Second Life, anyone? :lol:
Also, it's amusingly ironic that this mess has turned the so-called "victim" into even more of a target than before.
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Also, it's amusingly ironic that this mess has turned the so-called "victim" into even more of a target than before.
From what I've seen/read the victim is surprisingly apathetic about the whole thing. He just doesn't seem that bothered. He's also gained 10.7bill in reparations from the Mittani's wallet. Of course, isk doesn't make it better obviously, but the victim has accepted the apology and now just seems to want everyone to stop making such a fuss.
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In a lot of countries, including my own, Mittani's action was a crime. A 30 day ban is worthless. The apology is quite simply not sincere. No one takes a 180 degree turn like that entirely out of the blue. He saw the potential consequences of his actions and started doing damage control. He should have been banned for life and charges should have been made.
"Unclassy in fanfest" being a bannable offense is something I would be against too. Being a criminal at fanfest should be a permaban offense.
Ah well, it just confirms that goons are weaponsgrade douchebottles whether they're at the bottom or the top of the pyramid.
This, pretty much. 30 days isn't punishment at all for that he did. About a month worth of play time denied, wow, how will he cope?
The ONLY good thing about this is that the one person on the CSM who really should not be there is not there anymore. Let's hope he will be barred from the CSM forever onwards, then we can all breathe easier for EVE's sake.
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This thing has made the forums kind of funnier though. Goons crying everywhere.
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Only funny because they never seemed to realize their assholery could have repercussions and now that it did they are all hurt and offended by it. What a shame.
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Goons complaining that they're feeling griefed does have have a certain schadenfreude to it...
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The ONLY good thing about this is that the one person on the CSM who really should not be there is not there anymore. Let's hope he will be barred from the CSM forever onwards, then we can all breathe easier for EVE's sake.
BS. Mittani was a douche, but the CSM was better with him then without him.
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Goons complaining that they're feeling griefed does have have a certain schadenfreude to it...
*cough* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bYhepPPyic&feature=related)
I was just thinking this morning, that this would be one of a handful of songs that describes EVE in a nutshell. :lol:
Also, I agree with Vendrin here - as much as I hate the heavy nullsec bias on the CSM, he did do a lot of good work over the past year.
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The ONLY good thing about this is that the one person on the CSM who really should not be there is not there anymore. Let's hope he will be barred from the CSM forever onwards, then we can all breathe easier for EVE's sake.
BS. Mittani was a douche, but the CSM was better with him then without him.
How exactly is the CSM better with a sociopathic criminal on it? This isn't even hyperbole. He's shown several sociopathic tendencies and his actions are illegal in quite a few civilized countries.
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This is utterly moronic by CCP. EULA applies outside of game now
Of course it does, always has. Any action you take outside the game for the purpose of, or having the effect of, breaching the EULA in-game will be stamped down upon.
This includes targeted griefing, trying to crash the servers, RMT, posting exploits etc. If really want to do such stuff, you'd better cover your tracks so that can't be traced back to your character....
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The ONLY good thing about this is that the one person on the CSM who really should not be there is not there anymore. Let's hope he will be barred from the CSM forever onwards, then we can all breathe easier for EVE's sake.
BS. Mittani was a douche, but the CSM was better with him then without him.
How exactly is the CSM better with a sociopathic criminal on it? This isn't even hyperbole. He's shown several sociopathic tendencies and his actions are illegal in quite a few civilized countries.
I think that's a bit much. I'll just stick with 'immature.'
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The ONLY good thing about this is that the one person on the CSM who really should not be there is not there anymore. Let's hope he will be barred from the CSM forever onwards, then we can all breathe easier for EVE's sake.
BS. Mittani was a douche, but the CSM was better with him then without him.
It really wasn't
I always take exception with the notion that somehow Alexander Gianturco (the Mittani) was that useful during the Incarna crisis in eve online last year.
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The problem is a Mittani-led CSM6 didn’t represent “the players” either. It represented a selection of nullsec voting blocs interests without really caring about the wider issues in the game. CSM6 was noteworthy for removing transparency and accountability from the CSM process (no more internal meeting minutes) for cloaking decision making behind committee head (we couldn’t see who believed what) and for initially schmoozing with the MT devs when they should have been protesting Incarna.
Lets remember Mittani is infamous for getting drunk with CCP Monocle and telling him that the players of Eve would be cool with a “gold scorpion” purchased entirely with Aurum and no other input. (which breaks the essential economy of the game)
First formal summit CSM came home from Iceland with nothing but a badly written set of formal minutes (that took MONTHS to agree) and did nothing to answer player fears about Incarna whatsoever and would lead on to the release of possibly the worst “expansion” in Eve Online’s history.
Rage happened and it was rage from the player base with the Jita Riots and beginning of the unsub protest.
During the “emergency summit” Mittens appeared on Eve TV with CCP thousand dollar jeans in a joint address assuring people it was all sorted and everyone was happy now. He came back from the summit with a Nevil Chamberlain-esq “peace in our time” paper that did absolutely NOTHING to mollify the rage and anger of the Eve player base.
Protests continued, threadnaughts continued, unsubs continued.
The only thing that turned the CCP ship around was the public Mea culpa from Hilmar and announcement of the crunch to Crucible and significant restructuring of the company.
Now in this I say to you that Alexander Gianturco as chair provided very POOR leadership and representation of the player base and didn’t at any time have a full grasp of precisely what people were protesting about.
And of course then we had the christmas minutes which were another fiasco. Released late and indistinct, with the CSM being refered to as “the csm” (not individual reps) and being on record as anonymously saying some very stupid things about game development and priority.
Wormholes -what are they?
FW -is for noobs isn’t it?
Hisec -lol carebears?
There was a player backlash and some of the rest of the CSM broke ranks with Gianturco and announced they had personally been “for” or “against” certain things to assure people they were not part of the collective.
What did Gianturco achieve?
I think his legacy is in removing transparency and accountability from the CSM and turning into a skype channel social club for nullsec alliance leaders to get their jollies from drinking in Iceland. He will be remembered as the guy who gave CCP Monocle the nod on MT delivery of spaceships, the guy that appeared with CCP thousand dollar jeans and said “crisis what crisis” and the guy that tried to run CSM like the goonswarm executive division pulling strings and puppet-mastering the other reps and announcing all decisions in an eery (but unbelievable) unity.
And finally. He’ll be forever remembered as the unacceptable face of cyber-bullying and player harrassment in Eve Online in a role that puts him up there with Aris Bakhtanians as a villain then gaming media can get behind condemning. His drunken antics in calling a player to be harrassed to suicide with a wizards hat and cheesy smile will never be forgotten.
Nor will his 11th hour attempt to cling onto power by having his sychophants on the CSM forge a shoddy compromise with CCP where he kept his position despite clear breach of CSM guidelines and basic Eve code of conduct that would have any other player booted to a ban immediately.
So even when he could have kept some dignity by simply resigning as promised he waited too long and got kicked out proving himself a failure even in choosing the manner of his own demise.
Eve online and the CSM is far the better for this guy leaving the stage.
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CSM better with him than without?
Absolutely not.
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I think that's a bit much. I'll just stick with 'immature.'
Quotes of Mittani:
"This entire situation made it obvious to me that I can no longer be an alliance leader of goonswarm which is an alliance based around ****ing with people, let's be honest...what some people would call cyber-bullying..."
"Goonswarm was born of grief and shaped for the infliction of misery. Once exposed to it ourselves we adopted it, refined it, and loosed it upon the rest of Eve."
"You want to kill things and hurt people. Shush... I know you do: it's OK. Things that belong to real people who will usually be very upset, and will very often tell you so. If you are even moderately lucky then occasionally they will be so upset that they tell you that they will hunt you down and kill you, and you will then get them banned for life."
"I suspect that the cries of protest when we begin hitting Jita will make the Ice Interdiction sound like old Manilow tracks played through a de-tuned Muzak speaker at half volume in an elevator full of incontinent chimpanzees. Everyone uses Jita – alliances, humble traders, mega-jews, legions of market bots, you name it. Ice miners could escape our Interdiction by moving away, but ruining Jita will ruin, erm… everything. It will be like surrounding the New York Ѕtock Exchange, the Board of Trade, and the Federal Reѕerve with a ring of armored vehicles and shelling them all, simultaneously, until the entire economic system flies apart at the seams."
Small tastes of sociopathic tendencies.
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Generally speaking, intentionally causing lag in order to grief (which is what this will likely amount to) is considered an exploit - though it's rarely come up since they got most of the servers upgraded. There is precedent, though (Zombies, container traps, etc.)
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I think that's a bit much. I'll just stick with 'immature.'
Quotes of Mittani:
"This entire situation made it obvious to me that I can no longer be an alliance leader of goonswarm which is an alliance based around ****ing with people, let's be honest...what some people would call cyber-bullying..."
"Goonswarm was born of grief and shaped for the infliction of misery. Once exposed to it ourselves we adopted it, refined it, and loosed it upon the rest of Eve."
"You want to kill things and hurt people. Shush... I know you do: it's OK. Things that belong to real people who will usually be very upset, and will very often tell you so. If you are even moderately lucky then occasionally they will be so upset that they tell you that they will hunt you down and kill you, and you will then get them banned for life."
"I suspect that the cries of protest when we begin hitting Jita will make the Ice Interdiction sound like old Manilow tracks played through a de-tuned Muzak speaker at half volume in an elevator full of incontinent chimpanzees. Everyone uses Jita – alliances, humble traders, mega-jews, legions of market bots, you name it. Ice miners could escape our Interdiction by moving away, but ruining Jita will ruin, erm… everything. It will be like surrounding the New York Ѕtock Exchange, the Board of Trade, and the Federal Reѕerve with a ring of armored vehicles and shelling them all, simultaneously, until the entire economic system flies apart at the seams."
Small tastes of sociopathic tendencies.
I'm not saying he's not an asshole, and a double asshole with regards to a computer game, but the world is full of asshole internet trolls and they aren't all sociopaths. People get a bit Superman S on their chests when they get on the internt, and doubly so when a few thousand people look to you as their 'leader.'
You can still be a major asshole in the game and only a minor one in the real world
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Generally speaking, intentionally causing lag in order to grief (which is what this will likely amount to) is considered an exploit - though it's rarely come up since they got most of the servers upgraded. There is precedent, though (Zombies, container traps, etc.)
Personal griefing isn't allowed. No specifically trying to make the game rotten for a single player...
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I think it's a little silly for people to be complaining about others demonstrating sociopathic tendencies in EVE.
The game itself encourages this kind of behavior.
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Generally speaking, intentionally causing lag in order to grief (which is what this will likely amount to) is considered an exploit - though it's rarely come up since they got most of the servers upgraded. There is precedent, though (Zombies, container traps, etc.)
Rather than some ban-hammer I'm rather hoping that the ninja salvaging community turn it into a farce and everyone from the rest of eve just has a laugh getting bnc's on (slow motion) exploding Mittani tornados.
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does this mean there might not be any more alliance panel type things at future fanfests ?
so teh only presentations will be ones by an official CCP person, and not from any "normal" players ?
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does this mean there might not be any more alliance panel type things at future fanfests ?
so teh only presentations will be ones by an official CCP person, and not from any "normal" players ?
I haven't seen any suggestion of that. More "Edgy? Sure, it's one of the things that make EVE 'EVE'. Over the edge? Not so much."
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Ye gods, I just looked at the forums. How many hundred pages? What a farce.
I agree with CCP's assessment that a line was crossed - but a "30 day ban" line, not the "unto him and his descendants, yea, until the seventh generation" line some people seem to think it is. I've no doubt it would've been a complete non-event if it was about anybody else.
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I've no doubt it would've been a complete non-event if it was about anybody else.
This. SO FUCKING MUCH, THIS.
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I've no doubt it would've been a complete non-event if it was about anybody else.
This. SO FUCKING MUCH, THIS.
Depends what you mean by non-event. It probably wouldn't have spawned megathreads and CSM consequences, but apparently others have been banned for longer for comparable actions.
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does this mean there might not be any more alliance panel type things at future fanfests ?
so teh only presentations will be ones by an official CCP person, and not from any "normal" players ?
I haven't seen any suggestion of that. More "Edgy? Sure, it's one of the things that make EVE 'EVE'. Over the edge? Not so much."
there was a bit in one of the latest devblogs.
"Following internal discussions after everyone has returned to their offices from Fanfest, it is clear that we, CCP, need to revise the scope of the Alliance Panel for Fanfest 2013 because, frankly, EVE Online has grown to a maturation point where such behavior and such a forum are not appropriate"
and
"Should we choose to hold an Alliance Panel next year, we will still aim for comedic player-agency over the content, but will be very careful to create a different setting for the event."
from: http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28575
the "should we choose" bit, is a bit ominous ?
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That's exactly the point. Nobody would've given a flying shit. There would not have been threadnaughts, there wouldn't have been (horrifically shitty) media coverage, and there wouldn't be people talking about it all over.
You typically don't hear about people getting banned unless they're bots (♥ Sreegs) or you are connected to them by one or two degrees of separation (alliance/corpmates, alliance/corpmates of friends, etc.). Whether this is due to the fact that you're technically not supposed to discuss moderation and GM actions taken against you on official venues or not is unclear, but I'd doubt it's not part of it.
The only reason this is such a big fucking deal is because it happened to the Mittani, and stupid amounts of people have issues with Goons. You wouldn't have seen this for very many other people in the larger EVE community - I can only think of a handful people for whom this sort of thing might have garnered a similar response: EVE's so-called "celebrities", a group that Mittens belongs to.
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Louella, fair point about the "if" regarding an alliance forum next year. I guess we'll see, and that might take a while.
That's not the only player voice at Fanfest, though: a number of the talks this year were given by players, and the round tables are largely player-focused. That was the other part of your post that I was responding to.
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EVE residents: 5% WH; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec.
CSM 7: 1 highsec resident out of 14.
I liked Jade's post. The CSM minutes over FW showed how retardedly disconnected they were with its mechanics.
HOWEVER, the FW presentation by that French CCP gentleman showed a MUCH better grasp of the mechanics than CSM. Every piece of grievance FWers have had since day one, it was brought up in the presentation.
Not sure what the point of CSM is, by that example alone.
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The obvious solution is a proportional representation based on eve gameplay, so you run for a 'category' so each gameplay style has a representative
14 spots, so something like
High Sec rep
Low Sec rep
Null Sec rep
Faction Warfare rep
Corporate rep
Alliance rep
Small gang rep
Fleet Fight rep
Mining rep
Manufacturing rep
Market Rep
RP Rep
Etc. Splice and Dice to hit all categories, all parties get a voice to CCP
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It's been discussed, Silas, but as the CSM is (with everyone discussing all the topics together) it would be very difficult to prevent people from forming blocs on the committee and things running as they are, and even harder try and police such. Where would the limits be? Taking ISK or RL money for taking a position on a matter would be obviously way over the line, but what about one representative just being naturally sympathetic towards someone they know who got elected to another spot?
Splitting the CSM into multiple smaller committees who would meet individually would possibly be a thing as well, but could you completely stop leaks from one CSM member to another committee's CSM member on what was being discussed?
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In a lot of countries, including my own, Mittani's action was a crime. A 30 day ban is worthless. The apology is quite simply not sincere. No one takes a 180 degree turn like that entirely out of the blue. He saw the potential consequences of his actions and started doing damage control. He should have been banned for life and charges should have been made.
"Unclassy in fanfest" being a bannable offense is something I would be against too. Being a criminal at fanfest should be a permaban offense.
Ah well, it just confirms that goons are weaponsgrade douchebottles whether they're at the bottom or the top of the pyramid.
Criminal? Someone check Icelandic law before we start being utter morons? In MY country, this is not only LEGAL, but CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED. v0v
Also, I broke the EULA several times at fanfest. Waiting for my ban.
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Criminal? Someone check Icelandic law before we start being utter morons? In MY country, this is not only LEGAL, but CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED. v0v
ITT: Another one fails to see the difference between free speech and unlawful harassment.
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Bacch, CCP obviously don't give a shit what the law states in your country - they wrote their own EULA and considered it breached by a 3rd party, thus, the ban. If you care so much to complain that YOU have not been banned yet for an offense you are sure you have made I'm sure CCP would find no problem informing you if you will be banned or not, should you call them, explain what you have done and how it violates their EULA. I'm sure they would consider your claims, check any evidence and ban any toon you got, should they feel like it.
In the meantime, yelling at us on this forum serves no purpose. CCP considered their EULA breached and banned the mittani, most here agree and applaud the action. Some even want HARSHER penalty for the act. Your position is apparently incorrect, in this case.
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In a lot of countries, including my own, Mittani's action was a crime. A 30 day ban is worthless. The apology is quite simply not sincere. No one takes a 180 degree turn like that entirely out of the blue. He saw the potential consequences of his actions and started doing damage control. He should have been banned for life and charges should have been made.
"Unclassy in fanfest" being a bannable offense is something I would be against too. Being a criminal at fanfest should be a permaban offense.
Ah well, it just confirms that goons are weaponsgrade douchebottles whether they're at the bottom or the top of the pyramid.
Criminal? Someone check Icelandic law before we start being utter morons? In MY country, this is not only LEGAL, but CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED. v0v
Also, I broke the EULA several times at fanfest. Waiting for my ban.
Have you in fact petitioned yourself for impersonating Alexander Gianturco?
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Criminal? Someone check Icelandic law before we start being utter morons? In MY country, this is not only LEGAL, but CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED. v0v
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions
The intent of TM's speech may be considered to have the intent of inflicting severe emotional distress. It might be unprotected.
Your position is apparently incorrect, in this case.
His position is different. Whether it is correct or not is entirely subjective.
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Criminal? Someone check Icelandic law before we start being utter morons? In MY country, this is not only LEGAL, but CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED. v0v
ITT: Another one fails to see the difference between free speech and unlawful harassment.
Or, I just read a court case where a militia made threats and plans to attack and kill police and federal government workers, but the judge threw the case out because the ones making the claims were not a legitimate threat and were merely blustering and talking shit, which is protected under our first amendment. I don't see how saying "incidentally if you want to make the guy kill himself his name is ____" is worse than that.
I suppose it would have to go to the courts to be determined, if in fact Alex had made the comments in the US and if in fact some dumb bastard decided to try and press charges against him. I suspect he'd win and be able to counter-sue for his court costs.
In any case, we're not talking about the US, we're talking about Iceland. More to the point, as has been pointed out, we're talking about the EULA, not anyone's law, as he's not being brought up on charges, so I don't really see why people in this thread are going all hyperbolic talking about how evil criminal Hitler-esque his comments were and how he should have been carted off to jail/executed/burned alive for them.
Ultimately, I simply think CCP overstepped themselves with the ban. As I said elsewhere, ban him from fanfest perhaps, but the game? It doesn't sit right.
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NVM. :)
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Gottii, others have argued that TM may have broken some laws (government), I think that is why the point of Constitutionality was brought up.
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Criminal? Someone check Icelandic law before we start being utter morons? In MY country, this is not only LEGAL, but CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED. v0v
ITT: Another one fails to see the difference between free speech and unlawful harassment.
Or, I just read a court case where a militia made threats and plans to attack and kill police and federal government workers, but the judge threw the case out because the ones making the claims were not a legitimate threat and were merely blustering and talking shit, which is protected under our first amendment. I don't see how saying "incidentally if you want to make the guy kill himself his name is ____" is worse than that.
I suppose it would have to go to the courts to be determined, if in fact Alex had made the comments in the US and if in fact some dumb bastard decided to try and press charges against him. I suspect he'd win and be able to counter-sue for his court costs.
In any case, we're not talking about the US, we're talking about Iceland. More to the point, as has been pointed out, we're talking about the EULA, not anyone's law, as he's not being brought up on charges, so I don't really see why people in this thread are going all hyperbolic talking about how evil criminal Hitler-esque his comments were and how he should have been carted off to jail/executed/burned alive for them.
Ultimately, I simply think CCP overstepped themselves with the ban. As I said elsewhere, ban him from fanfest perhaps, but the game? It doesn't sit right.
Bach, are you defending his being an ass or his right to be an ass? I'm a big supporter of one's right to be an asshole as that's part of the package deal for free speech. It's all ok or none of it is, especially when you don't agree with it. That's the test.
But this being a private event with their own rules, they can muzzle or ban him however they want for whatever perceived provocation they want. It's their business and having that kind of thing streamed out on the internet is bad for business.
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Yeah, the issue is both what he said and when he said it - on camera with thousands of people watching. Now, the massive reaction to it is also due to who he is. He's mittens, he's one of the polarizing figures in the game. But if he had made this remark anywhere besides on camera at fanfest, I don't think it generates nearly as big a stink. And no, I don't think he should be let off the hook on account of, "Well if he'd just said it while drunk at the bar we wouldn't care, but he said it at the alliance panel so it's a big deal?"
Timing is everything.
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Have you in fact petitioned yourself for impersonating Alexander Gianturco?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: that made me laught out loud and people at work looked me as a weirdo
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Have you in fact petitioned yourself for impersonating Alexander Gianturco?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: that made me laught out loud and people at work looked me as a weirdo
Not formally, but during an email exchange with CCP Guard (was forwarding some pictures of him and I on which he subsequently posted to Alex's Facebook wall saying "hey look, it's me and Mittani!) I did ask him about that. Haven't gotten a response yet.
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Ultimately, I simply think CCP overstepped themselves with the ban. As I said elsewhere, ban him from fanfest perhaps, but the game? It doesn't sit right.
There is no freedom of speech when it comes to membership of private clubs.
If he had made some exploit public, he would have been banned just as hard.
Yes, if you say something that has lettering in the EULA *and* might hurt CCP's bottom line, you will likely be slapped. This doesn't impede your freedom of speech in any way.
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In the end, the whole "EULA applies at fanfest" thing is just a cover rationalization for enacting the ban. I seriously doubt CCP is going to start fully policing the EULA at fanfest, because frankly 90% of the EULA "violations" at fanfest are likely people having fun with each other and done in good faith, not people deliberately trying to hurt others.
Yes, it's a highly subjective application, and yes, it's not "fair" to unequally apply it, but honestly I think that barring writing a new EULA for out-of-game interaction I think it's CCP's best course of action.
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Ah well, it just confirms that goons are weaponsgrade douchebottles whether they're at the bottom or the top of the pyramid.
Anyone who needs confirmation of this is either blind, deaf and dumb, or not paying attention, tbh. At least sometimes the douchebottle-ness is funny. Raining penises in Second Life, anyone? :lol:
Also, it's amusingly ironic that this mess has turned the so-called "victim" into even more of a target than before.
OK, since SL was mentioned - I was active over there when it was an SA/Goon target. Their main tactic was attempted crashes, usually involving a 'grey goo' object (mass replication beyond the sim land's limit). The other common tactic was crashing events using an 'Inappropriate Flying Object' (for lack of a nicer term).
While in the short-term, it made SL a better place (by identifying and plugging the most glaring system holes), it also fostered a corporate structure at Linden that was very wary of its original 'wild-west' style of play. They were trying hard towards an IPO, thus making their fortunes at the mercy of the general public's attitude toward them.
And so began what the old-timers called 'Disnification.' Mechanics used to grief were severely limited or removed outright, in the name of "no one's using it correctly anyway." Certain 'grey area' activities were outright banned instead of restricted ('gambling' comes to mind here). For a while their forum was shutdown, and/or their GD was pulled from it, and/or had external help (I was one of the latter). And now they're stagnating over the past year or more because leadership appears to be going in too many directions (at one point this included layoffs).
Any of this sound familiar? :s
I have a lot of respect for the SA guys (in a 'good fights' way), but I also think they can get a bit overzealous and cause a backlash among the targeted community. While this is usually the stated goal (it was for certain in Eve's case), I think they may eventually go too far here. And I fear what may emerge from it.
My apologies for the rant.
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Ultimately, I simply think CCP overstepped themselves with the ban. As I said elsewhere, ban him from fanfest perhaps, but the game? It doesn't sit right.
There is no freedom of speech when it comes to membership of private clubs.
If he had made some exploit public, he would have been banned just as hard.
Yes, if you say something that has lettering in the EULA *and* might hurt CCP's bottom line, you will likely be slapped. This doesn't impede your freedom of speech in any way.
Is the sky also blue? Please enlighten me on more painfully and blatantly obvious statements kind sir!
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has this thing settled down yet ?
I wonder. The stuff that happened last year, with the NeX / Incarna debacle, and when Hilmar? and the Mittani had those interview things, maybe that stung a lot.
and when this thing happened, it was a golden opportunity, so that senior CCP people would never have to have such an embarrassing thing occur again. Remind people who was who and so on ?
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Is the sky also blue? Please enlighten me on more painfully and blatantly obvious statements kind sir!
I'm not surprised that the color of the sky is blue, that was you, right? :D
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I haven't confirmed this, but saw it said on another forum that someone on EVE Radio or some podcast yesterday gave out Mittens' home address and phone number. He's apparently been getting death threats to him, his wife, and dog since.
In before everyone smugly and hypocritically approves.
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Naw, that's actually pretty unfortunate, and speaks poorly of the people doing it.
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I hope it was false info I read--I can't find much about it elsewhere.
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Would never approve of it. I do however appreciate the irony of the tables turning.
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How is that the tables turning? It's not like The Wis said "hey guys, go grief The Mittani in game" which is basically what Mittens did. This is someone saying "here's the home address of a man and his family, internet, go do your worst".
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How is that the tables turning? It's not like The Wis said "hey guys, go grief The Mittani in game" which is basically what Mittens did. This is someone saying "here's the home address of a man and his family, internet, go do your worst".
Harassment = Harassment. I don't find the actual medium to be of much relevance. There's still real people behind every means of contact. While The Wis probably wasn't involved in this, Mittani did just find himself on the receiving end of harassment instead of the giving end. While I still don't condone it and hope he will contact the police, it is still delicious irony.
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So, being an asshole doesn't work well for you? Color me amazed.
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How is that the tables turning? It's not like The Wis said "hey guys, go grief The Mittani in game" which is basically what Mittens did. This is someone saying "here's the home address of a man and his family, internet, go do your worst".
Harassment = Harassment. I don't find the actual medium to be of much relevance. There's still real people behind every means of contact. While The Wis probably wasn't involved in this, Mittani did just find himself on the receiving end of harassment instead of the giving end. While I still don't condone it and hope he will contact the police, it is still delicious irony.
This, pretty much. One can be optimistic and hope that Mittani learns some restraint and perhaps, stops considering things like this as acceptable behavior. I am not very optimistic.
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I haven't confirmed this, but saw it said on another forum that someone on EVE Radio or some podcast yesterday gave out Mittens' home address and phone number. He's apparently been getting death threats to him, his wife, and dog since.
In before everyone smugly and hypocritically approves.
You can color me surprised.
If that is even a color.
Mob's rule. He tried to use it. Now, it turned against him it would seem. When will people of low ethics understand that it will eventually backfire ?
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I was in the eve radio channel when two random characters I'd never seen before (with varied corp histories) popped up during Gianturco's demolishing of the Massively guy on radio. The first one posted an address he claimed belonged to Gainturco (he also had it in his bio). The second one said something about calling in the "rape vans". Everyone present called for them to STFU and get banned. But it wasn't long until the undercurrent changed to "look how terrible non goon players are, you are worse than anything the mittani did!"
Call me suspicious but I'm just not sure that any actual eve players are stupid enough to lose long term characters doing something they know they are going to get banned for in such a stupid way. It stank of being a false flag operation. No way to be sure either way, but it was pretty conveniently "on message" with the counter offensive against the media launched by the goon legions.
Everyone agrees this stuff is crap whoever does it and no ooc harrassment should be accepted whatsoever.
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v0v I guess I see it differently. Telling someone who to grief IN A FUCKING GAME is different than inviting mouthbreathing insane neckbeards (let's say, like the one who hangs out in a lot of RP channels and can't type to save his life and threatened to find and knife Verone in person) to go to Mittens' house and cause bodily harm to him and his family.
But I guess I'm just crazy. This is the same crowd of people who think blowing up other people's ships is mean and criminal and equivalent to genocide or something.
Seriously, the mind boggles. You people never cease to amaze me.
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It probably would have been fine if The Mittani hadn't encouraged the griefing of another player with the intent to have that player kill himself.
I think he could have easily said, "The character name is The Wis. He is a classic "spaceships-is-serious-business" player. The name again is The Wis." And there wouldn't have been any story.
I think that is how many veteran players can interpret what The Mittani said, but that is not what he said and the perception of those who have not been around Eve for a while may not appreciate the vernacular.
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Damn, then I wish someone would find the addresses of everyone who's ever told me to die in a fire on the internet so Goon neckbeards can go murder their families. It's only fair.
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Damn, then I wish someone would find the addresses of everyone who's ever told me to die in a fire on the internet so Goon neckbeards can go murder their families. It's only fair.
Why are you continuing the line that people are being hypocritical when nobody has posted that it's ok for people to threaten Mittani (and his wife etc) in real-life?
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Damn, then I wish someone would find the addresses of everyone who's ever told me to die in a fire on the internet so Goon neckbeards can go murder their families. It's only fair.
That isn't what I said or suggested. I think the person who provided The Mittani's address did something wrong and should be banned from Eve for some period of time. I think the person who suggested committing a crime needs to attend some counselling, possibly have a restraining order set against them, and banned from Eve (for much longer than 30-days).
I suggested that The Mittani's choices of words was poor and when seen from an outsider's perspective can be interpreted as being horrible.
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Bacch, you continue to construct gigantic arguments and viewpoints that no one here has even once gotten near. Secondly, you seem rather hellbent on minimizing and even defending Mittani's actions. Calling it "griefing" instead of the harassment is was, and so on. You know it wasn't just about 'blowing up spaceships', right? You of all people should know there's probably not a single person here who finds "blowing up spaceships" to be mean.
It's a pity, I used to have respect for you. Now you're just starting to act like one of the goons instead.
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v0v I guess I see it differently. Telling someone who to grief IN A FUCKING GAME is different than inviting mouthbreathing insane neckbeards (let's say, like the one who hangs out in a lot of RP channels and can't type to save his life and threatened to find and knife Verone in person) to go to Mittens' house and cause bodily harm to him and his family.
But I guess I'm just crazy. This is the same crowd of people who think blowing up other people's ships is mean and criminal and equivalent to genocide or something.
Seriously, the mind boggles. You people never cease to amaze me.
I agree with this to a point, it is different.
However it doesn't absolve the former (what Alex did) from being wrong, encouraging in game harassment with the goal of hoping he kills himself is wrong. Had he just said "If you want a laugh this guy's name is "The Wis" he's a serious internet spaceships guy and produces sweet tears" no one would batter an eyelid... well ok a few would but then we're talking about a game where corps have forums dedicated to posting "Customer tears" and such calls would be put down.
Regardless, Mittani crossed the line.
But the latter is morally irreprehensible, taking matters into real life where you hand out real life information that can be used to not only threaten someone but their loved ones is stupid beyond word definition. Mittani gave an in game character name, he kept the information dealt to a purely game basis, yes there was reference to RL repercussions of the act, but he didn't compromise someone's RL safety with the information presented.
So people who think that this balances things out or "turns the tables" have a strong inability to measure severity. Mittani crossed the line with a great big two footed jump. The latter action launched themselves over it with a catapult and can't see the line on the horizon anymore.
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The overreaction is crazy. It was maybe an ill-judged joke, but quite honestly who hasn't made those while under the influence? A sober apology should have been sufficient, but CCP's response is unbelievably po-faced. It's like they've never played Eve.
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It's a pity, I used to have respect for you. Now you're just starting to act like one of the goons instead.
Bacch was "acting like a goon" before the first goon had ever heard of eve. He was a pioneer of the persona.
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A sober apology should have been sufficient, but CCP's response is unbelievably po-faced. It's like they've never played Eve.
i think there is a lot more to this than is apparent or has been revealed.
Agendas wrapped in agendas. Things being used as a pretext to do other things.
it's all rather depressing.
and various persons and their gloatings is really quite distasteful.
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v0v I guess I see it differently. Telling someone who to grief IN A FUCKING GAME is different than inviting mouthbreathing insane neckbeards (let's say, like the one who hangs out in a lot of RP channels and can't type to save his life and threatened to find and knife Verone in person) to go to Mittens' house and cause bodily harm to him and his family.
But I guess I'm just crazy. This is the same crowd of people who think blowing up other people's ships is mean and criminal and equivalent to genocide or something.
Seriously, the mind boggles. You people never cease to amaze me.
However it doesn't absolve the former (what Alex did) from being wrong, encouraging in game harassment with the goal of hoping he kills himself is wrong. Had he just said "If you want a laugh this guy's name is "The Wis" he's a serious internet spaceships guy and produces sweet tears" no one would batter an eyelid
And here's my big problem with most of this thread.
I think Lallante on FHC (typically among the worst of the shitposters) had a rare moment of clarity and said it best, so I'll just c/p his post rather than put it in my own words:
The difference is its hard if not impossible to believe that Mittens actually wanted or believed it possible that they could collectively troll that guy into suicide. He meant it as a joke, which makes him a drunk, dumb, insensitive prick. But as his apology shows and anyone who has actually had dealings with him could tell you, he isn't actually an evil baby eating cunt who genuinely wants people to kill themselves.
Mel gibson on the other hand is ACTUALLY an anti-semite. The views he expresses while drunk are his true views, not just some drunken showing-off shock humour to his goonfleet of faggot brownnosers.
tl;dr - Mittens can be a douchebag, but he isnt THAT much of a douchebag. He fucked up and went too far with a joke, rather than revealing his "true" evil nature.
Regardless, Mittani crossed the line.
That really nails it down tbh. He made a joke in extremely poor taste. He did not show up at the guy's door with a loaded gun, sit down on his couch, hand the guy the gun and encourage him to put it in his mouth and pull the trigger. But you wouldn't know that from some of the reactions I've read. Half of them make this out to be a case where Alex went up on stage with the express intent of ending this guy's life and maliciously did his best to make sure it happened. And to me, intent matters.
The overreaction is crazy. It was maybe an ill-judged joke, but quite honestly who hasn't made those while under the influence? A sober apology should have been sufficient, but CCP's response is unbelievably po-faced. It's like they've never played Eve.
Yay, someone who gets it.
It's a pity, I used to have respect for you. Now you're just starting to act like one of the goons instead.
Bacch was "acting like a goon" before the first goon had ever heard of eve. He was a pioneer of the persona.
:roll:
Confirming I'm an evil puppy killing maniac who stalks people on the internet and goes out of his way to ruin their lives at any opportunity.
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:roll:
Confirming I'm an evil puppy killing maniac who stalks people on the internet and goes out of his way to ruin their lives at any opportunity.
Is that how you see the goons? BTW, I meant that as props. Sort of.
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Some of them. :P Maybe I'm more thinking of 4chan, to be fair.
And yes, in EVE I'm an internet asshole. Because that's EVE. v0v
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Here's the thing Bacc. I don't really give much of a fuck about Mittani's player. Whats important to me here is that Eve Online collectively wakes up and realizes that the culture of out of game bullying to metagame a "victory" is corrosive and leads down a dark path. You know me, I'm quite happy to authorize an enemy corp in game is camped into a station for weeks, that their every last mission runner is hunted down and assassinated and then make an RP post on galnet about the cowardice of the leader who refuses to undock while his or her troops are dying pointlessly. In some games that would be considered griefing - in this one it is part of the game. It is also precisely in-game and in-character.
But there are limits and you and I both know what they are. When Goonswarm decided to grief the BOB leader "lady scarlet" from the game they infilitrated the BOB forums (not a hard task) and took rl pictures of the player then mocked her mercilessly for months for being overweight. On forums, in local, with mocking avatars, with photoshopped pictures of her face on Jabba the Hutt for heavens sake. That was OOC bullying designed to metagame a "win" against an eve organization and frankly if that women had been slightly unhinged I could see her shooting somebody in the face for real.
The point is keep the bloody ingame pressure ingame and it remains healthy. Move it out of game and it becomes an arms race of fuckery that will eventually get somebody killed or thrown in prison.
When I was on the CSM the goons sent a letter to the people I was working for alleging I was working as an internet prostitute along with links of a website where they'd copied the old la maison content next to text list of sexual services I was offering for real money on the internet. This came from a wonderful anonymous hotmail completely untraceable - next day several prominent goons put the same links into a forum thread titled "do we want this kind of person on the CSM." On the goon wiki there is a real life picture of me with the description "put's date rape drugs in the soft drinks of local school children."
Now, if these guys lived in the UK and I could prove a link to their ISP we'd have been in court by now. But huzzah, they are in the US and international law suits don't work too well. So its just another example of internet harrassment and ooc bullying in eve online.
But this is what happens if CCP does not take a stern line on this shit.
Now on the Mittani ... having slept on this for a few days I'm now convinced that what should have happened there is he was simply disbarred from the CSM and banned from ever running again without the in-game ban. CCP should have said "you brought the game into disrepute despite being warned not to (allegedly by other members of the CSM)". They are within their rights to prevent any player from running and potentially representing the company to the wider world - they should have done this.
Instead doing it on the eula/tos and 30 day ban leading to temp removal from the CSM was a messy solution that allows all sorts of people to claim legal loopholes and will make the whole business flair up again next year.
If CCP had simply done the "CSM chair removed for bringing the game into disrepute" then that becomes the headline rather than "Alexander Gianturco is a cyberbully" and he'd probably be much happier with it too. And its got the additional benefit of being precisely true to what happens. The CSM chair as a duty to represent the game in a good light. Mittani betrayed that duty and I don't think anyone would seriously argue otherwise.
Now. In the case of idiots that post people's addresses and order the "rape vans". Game ban. Its that simple. Same for people that post people's real life pictures next to allegations they are child-rapists. I hope we can agree on that Bacchanalian.
And that being the case - what is there really to argue about?
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Oof.
This is why RL me has zero internet footprint.
I think a lot of people simply saw all of this as the sins of the Goons coming home to roost on the mistakes of one guy.
Is that fair? I dunno.
But the tears from the goons are unexpectedly delectable!
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The point is keep the bloody ingame pressure ingame and it remains healthy. Move it out of game and it becomes an arms race of fuckery that will eventually get somebody killed or thrown in prison.
I'd have to agree 100% with this. And it's not like the Goons don't regularly up the ante in that very arms race, so it is a bit funny (ie. hypocritical) that they are all indignant now that their fearless leader has been the target of Goonish shenanigans.
But that's exactly how they are. They are Internet hipsters saying "Internet spesships is srs buisness", while themselves taking the game very seriously... in as much as one can paint the goons with one big brush, anyway.
Too bad for Mittani, really. There's a lot about him that I like (and a lot to his methods that I don't personally agree with, but I can respect the ruthless efficiency of some of it) and it seems he brought some effectiveness to the CSM as well. The fact that he's out of the CSM after that public faux pas shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, though. That's what happens in the real world.
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I'm still travelling, and not following the response in detail.
-- I hear there was a YouTube clip, since taken down, possibly from early this year, where The Mittani tells the Goons that at this year's alliance panel he will talk about the different sectors of the EVE community, and why Goons hate them, and why they should kill themselves. Did any of you hear this while it was public? Any comments on the summary I've heard of what was said?
-- I've been thinking a bit about "tears" lately.[1] The griefing game-style may have its primary active expression in-game, but the tears it seeks are "real", resulting from real upset caused to other players. When we've received flak from morally-driven NRDS groups for not taking our NRDS seriously enough it's been because (I summarise) piracy and griefing are real problems with real victims, while slavery is a make-believe problem that's all in our fantasy world. (I can see that this view is internally consistent, but also that those who hold it are playing a different game to the game I'm playing.)
EVE is also a game which has significant meta-play. At Fanfest I found myself several times mentioning the metagame in contexts where I hadn't previously realised how deeply I accepted and expected that there'd be meta-play, so this is exercising my thinking now.
Boundaries get blurred, especially when griefer rhetoric is involved, amping up the emotional response by using loaded language. Inciting people to do things in-game to cause upset and induce tears and rage is pretty much part of the game for certain sections of the EVE community. At what point does that go too far and cause not "just" tears and rage but violence and self-harm? Are people who play griefer-style aware of this possibility or--one of the concerning prospects to arise from this brouhaha--would their response to an actual griefer-induced suicide be that the person was obviously lame, broken, and shouldn't have been playing in the same game/gene-pool?
I'm basically an ethical pragmatist on this one: Alex Gianturco did something stupid and there need to be consequences in order to preserve the game for the rest of us. But I am strongly aware that I don't recruit to the game and I'm cautious about some of the ways I play because it can be a brutal environment out there: I can make the choice for myself, but I wouldn't recommend it to most of the people in my real life. So when some in-game friends are making this the issue on which they make their stand about acceptable behaviour in the EVE community, I can't say I blame them. Some others seem shocked and bewildered that something they don't see as particularly serious griefing is having such effects... and that's bugging me a bit. I don't believe intention is a fully mitigating factor when the "crime" is incitement: you don't get away with saying "but I didn't think anyone would take me seriously when I said people should firebomb the ragheads". How much of this is about "private" speech--where the rhetoric of griefing people to suicide might, maybe, be just a rousing speech to the troops--being spread into the public domain, where it has "normal" meanings and significances?
There's quite a bit of thinking aloud here, so this isn't at my usual level of polish. Thorny issues.
[1] OOG as well as IG, actually: I have no appreciable tear meniscus and now need to resort to artificial tears, which is a metaphor in waiting.
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I'm still travelling, and not following the response in detail.
-- I hear there was a YouTube clip, since taken down, possibly from early this year, where The Mittani tells the Goons that at this year's alliance panel he will talk about the different sectors of the EVE community, and why Goons hate them, and why they should kill themselves. Did any of you hear this while it was public? Any comments on the summary I've heard of what was said?
I've seen the youtube clip and yes, it does have Mittani saying how he hates various people from roleplayers to titan pilots to miners and how his presentation is designed to tell them to "kill themselves". The original video was taken down but not before enterprising eve players rehosted it. I'm not going to give you the link here but I imagine you can find it easily enough. Its being alleged that Soundwave did something wrong in appearing with Mittani there, but having listened to it - not really.
-- I've been thinking a bit about "tears" lately.[1] The griefing game-style may have its primary active expression in-game, but the tears it seeks are "real", resulting from real upset caused to other players. When we've received flak from morally-driven NRDS groups for not taking our NRDS seriously enough it's been because (I summarise) piracy and griefing are real problems with real victims, while slavery is a make-believe problem that's all in our fantasy world. (I can see that this view is internally consistent, but also that those who hold it are playing a different game to the game I'm playing.)
EVE is also a game which has significant meta-play. At Fanfest I found myself several times mentioning the metagame in contexts where I hadn't previously realised how deeply I accepted and expected that there'd be meta-play, so this is exercising my thinking now.
Boundaries get blurred, especially when griefer rhetoric is involved, amping up the emotional response by using loaded language. Inciting people to do things in-game to cause upset and induce tears and rage is pretty much part of the game for certain sections of the EVE community. At what point does that go too far and cause not "just" tears and rage but violence and self-harm? Are people who play griefer-style aware of this possibility or--one of the concerning prospects to arise from this brouhaha--would their response to an actual griefer-induced suicide be that the person was obviously lame, broken, and shouldn't have been playing in the same game/gene-pool?
Its a bit appalling even to reach this realization but I honestly think that many SA-style players would celebrate and relish a RL suicide by an in-game rival. That its possible to actually write such a thing should probably give us a wake up call.
I'm basically an ethical pragmatist on this one: Alex Gianturco did something stupid and there need to be consequences in order to preserve the game for the rest of us. But I am strongly aware that I don't recruit to the game and I'm cautious about some of the ways I play because it can be a brutal environment out there: I can make the choice for myself, but I wouldn't recommend it to most of the people in my real life. So when some in-game friends are making this the issue on which they make their stand about acceptable behaviour in the EVE community, I can't say I blame them. Some others seem shocked and bewildered that something they don't see as particularly serious griefing is having such effects... and that's bugging me a bit. I don't believe intention is a fully mitigating factor when the "crime" is incitement: you don't get away with saying "but I didn't think anyone would take me seriously when I said people should firebomb the ragheads". How much of this is about "private" speech--where the rhetoric of griefing people to suicide might, maybe, be just a rousing speech to the troops--being spread into the public domain, where it has "normal" meanings and significances? There's quite a bit of thinking aloud here, so this isn't at my usual level of polish. Thorny issues. [1] OOG as well as IG, actually: I have no appreciable tear meniscus and now need to resort to artificial tears, which is a metaphor in waiting.
Not much to add to that.
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I think Lallante on FHC (typically among the worst of the shitposters) had a rare moment of clarity and said it best, so I'll just c/p his post rather than put it in my own words:
The difference is its hard if not impossible to believe that Mittens actually wanted or believed it possible that they could collectively troll that guy into suicide. He meant it as a joke, which makes him a drunk, dumb, insensitive prick. But as his apology shows and anyone who has actually had dealings with him could tell you, he isn't actually an evil baby eating cunt who genuinely wants people to kill themselves.
Mel gibson on the other hand is ACTUALLY an anti-semite. The views he expresses while drunk are his true views, not just some drunken showing-off shock humour to his goonfleet of faggot brownnosers.
tl;dr - Mittens can be a douchebag, but he isnt THAT much of a douchebag. He fucked up and went too far with a joke, rather than revealing his "true" evil nature.
Regardless, Mittani crossed the line.
That really nails it down tbh. He made a joke in extremely poor taste. He did not show up at the guy's door with a loaded gun, sit down on his couch, hand the guy the gun and encourage him to put it in his mouth and pull the trigger. But you wouldn't know that from some of the reactions I've read. Half of them make this out to be a case where Alex went up on stage with the express intent of ending this guy's life and maliciously did his best to make sure it happened. And to me, intent matters.
When Gibson made his rant, he was representing himself.
When The Mittani made his rant, he was doing so not only on his own behalf, nor that his alliance, but as the elected representative of the entire Eve community.
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It's a pity, I used to have respect for you. Now you're just starting to act like one of the goons instead.
Bacch was "acting like a goon" before the first goon had ever heard of eve. He was a pioneer of the persona.
Thread kind of saddens me, so no more substantive comments on it, but this could not go unremarked: http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/03/picture-of-week-twins.html (http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/03/picture-of-week-twins.html)
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seemingly, the person that the mittani suggested people harass ingame, is being harassed out of game. phone and emails to their employer and so forth.
it just gets worse and worse. :ugh:
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seemingly, the person that the mittani suggested people harass ingame, is being harassed out of game. phone and emails to their employer and so forth.
it just gets worse and worse. :ugh:
That would require someone to give out his RL information, how they managed that when all they had was an in game name to go off is :bash:
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he did at one point have a link in his bio to a blog thing.
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It's a pity, I used to have respect for you. Now you're just starting to act like one of the goons instead.
Bacch was "acting like a goon" before the first goon had ever heard of eve. He was a pioneer of the persona.
Thread kind of saddens me, so no more substantive comments on it, but this could not go unremarked: http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/03/picture-of-week-twins.html (http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/03/picture-of-week-twins.html)
I should probably give the EULA a good read, but does this potentially open up Bacch to petitions from those who thought they were talking to The Mittani? (Bacch has sort of asked this question already)
Since CCP owns all the property involved (Ships, ISK, etc), no "real" theft has occurred and this protects against legal actions. (I do not think impersonating a person is illegal, unless you are impersonating a particular type-of-person.)
I think Bacch's questions in that area are valid.
Does lying to one character about the relationship of the speaking character to another character constitute a breach of the EULA? Said another way, if I am playing a character and I claim to be an alt of someone else - have I broken the EULA?
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Does lying to one character about the relationship of the speaking character to another character constitute a breach of the EULA? Said another way, if I am playing a character and I claim to be an alt of someone else - have I broken the EULA?
Conversely, and more importantly imo, if I say on some character of mine that I'm not the alt of one of my other characters, have I broken the EULA? :P
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FWIW, his blog was making stuff up to some degree. The only things I actually got out of people mistaking me to be Mittens was them buying me a few beers/at one point trying to interview me about the CSM (halfway through that interview I lost it as I was rather drunk, started laughing, and let the guy know that Mittens was actually just behind me and I was Bacchanalian--just before the picture below was taken in fact). I only introduced myself seriously as Mittens once, at the Saturday night party, when one of my corpmates started charging through crowds of people drunkenly yelling "MAKE WAY FOR YOUR CSM CHAIR MITTANI, MAKE WAY" and I rolled with it.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/389309_10150763060484314_691834313_11454955_2004801203_n.jpg)
In any case, I think Alex made a very well-thought-out response to the whole thing in the Ten Ton Hammer article that was put up today:
http://www.tentonhammer.com/eve/spymaster/77
You may or may not agree, but personally I tend to think he's not wrong in saying that labeling what he did as cyberbullying undermines the term entirely, and that the real perpetrators are those who go out of their way to repeatedly harass someone to the point of ruining their lives. See also; 4chan when some poor girl makes the dumb choice of sending out pictures of herself performing less-than-kosher acts with a significant other or in various states of undress, and they go out of their way to not only figure out who this girl is, but to harass her on Facebook, contact her parents/peers and share the photos, and ensure that her existence is utterly ruined by them in the process. At one point I even saw someone proudly proclaiming that they had already succeeded in forcing one victim to move states and change her name once and now that they tracked her down a second time were going to do it again. That is cyberbullying, and it's utterly disgusting. Making a very dumb, insensitive, and assholish comment is not. Putting up pictures of RL Jade with the term "child rapist" attached to it is cyberbullying. Hell, when I was repeatedly called the same term in-game by someone (Boma Airaken, incidentally) who then went on to give out my location and IP address (not sure how they got that, but my IP also traces to about 40 miles away, so it wasn't that big of a deal) could even be termed cyberbullying. Telling people to harass some dude in game so he kills himself? Tasteless, unbecoming of a CSM member, and generally dickish, but not cyberbullying.
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But it is incitement to do just that (ie. cyberbullying)? Especially considering such tactics have been known to be employed by Goons and Mittani is the Goon leader who regularly issues out targets. He was only joking? Sure, okay. I'm sure some Goons (and maybe others, too) took his joke as a directive. I'm sure he's aware of his influence as well.
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He could have the decency to admit the seriousness of what he did (or just stfu), instead of trying to minimize it. Its just getting even more ludicrous to me.
Warning, exagerated analogy inc : in the same vein, thats not because some dude is doing a genocide somewhere that you killing only a single person is not very serious in itself.
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"Bully" is one of those words that has been devalued over the years. A bully used to be someone who engaged in systematic violence to affect others.
The archetypal school bully was someone who went around beating up smaller kids if they didn't hand over their lunch money but nowadays a lot of schools consider simple name-calling (whether or not systematic) to be acts of bullying.
So as with a lot of things in life the question of whether or not publicly suggesting someone should be hounded to the point of suicide is bullying depends upon which definition you're using.
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Warning, exagerated analogy inc : in the same vein, thats not because some dude is doing a genocide somewhere that you killing only a single person is not very serious in itself.
To indulge your ridiculous analogy for a moment, the difference is the guy who is suspected of a single murder goes to his local court system and faces consequences through that. The genocidal individual goes to The Hague and faces the ICC. Very different levels of reaction.
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They are ?
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You may or may not agree, but personally I tend to think he's not wrong in saying that labeling what he did as cyberbullying undermines the term entirely, and that the real perpetrators are those who go out of their way to repeatedly harass someone to the point of ruining their lives. See also; 4chan when some poor girl makes the dumb choice of sending out pictures of herself performing less-than-kosher acts with a significant other or in various states of undress, and they go out of their way to not only figure out who this girl is, but to harass her on Facebook, contact her parents/peers and share the photos, and ensure that her existence is utterly ruined by them in the process.
I don't disagree. Which is not to say that what Mittani did was right just because something else is worse, but in my opinion it's absolutely (for one reason or another) been blown out of all proportion.
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Pot stirring time.
Goons scammed some mentally instable dude out of all of his worth in EVE. Dude proceeds to fail at offing himself then posts pictures to twitter of how actually managed to down the road rather than across the street but still didn't quite do the job.
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?13161-Scammer-took-my-cash-I-feel-like-killing-myself-IRLIngame-%28blawrf-vs-human-decency%29
Right? Wrong? Should the scammer feel bad? Should he be thrown in jail, tied to a wall and tickled with feathers 12 hours a day? Electric chair? Patted on the back?
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Pot stirring time.
Goons scammed some mentally instable dude out of all of his worth in EVE. Dude proceeds to fail at offing himself then posts pictures to twitter of how actually managed to down the road rather than across the street but still didn't quite do the job.
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?13161-Scammer-took-my-cash-I-feel-like-killing-myself-IRLIngame-%28blawrf-vs-human-decency%29
Right? Wrong? Should the scammer feel bad? Should he be thrown in jail, tied to a wall and tickled with feathers 12 hours a day? Electric chair? Patted on the back?
I've always been of the opinion that all Goons ought to be put in a boiling pot of broth for my own culinary experimentation.
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If I've got this right one of the many thousands of random victims of the goons was far more fragile IRL than most of us and could not cope, now he failed to kill himself and you go out of your way to inform us and practically laugh in his face, asking US what we feel about the scammer and/or his more-than-IG victim.
Frankly, if you feel the goons are an okay bunch and do no harm and that we should all agree, that's fine. Your opinion is noted, and you have the right to make it. But your constant blating of "the goons aren't as bad as you say" and/or "Mittens is a cool dude and don't deserve the shit he got for being an asshole" is getting tiresome; those who agree with you have stated as such, those who don't have also made it clear.
All your doing right now is underlining the feelings and opinions of the ones that don't like the goons, and don't much help your cause, quite the contrary, you seem to be hell-bent on continuing your line of reasoning and behavior regardless of what happens or is said here. Perhaps next time some other poor bastard actually DOES manage to kill himself and you will laugh at him as well. The goons are likely going to pop the cork for that one as well. If they have not already.
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I do not like Goons as a result of their meta-gaming standards. Period.
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If I've got this right one of the many thousands of random victims of the goons was far more fragile IRL than most of us and could not cope, now he failed to kill himself and you go out of your way to inform us and practically laugh in his face, asking US what we feel about the scammer and/or his more-than-IG victim.
Frankly, if you feel the goons are an okay bunch and do no harm and that we should all agree, that's fine. Your opinion is noted, and you have the right to make it. But your constant blating of "the goons aren't as bad as you say" and/or "Mittens is a cool dude and don't deserve the shit he got for being an asshole" is getting tiresome; those who agree with you have stated as such, those who don't have also made it clear.
All your doing right now is underlining the feelings and opinions of the ones that don't like the goons, and don't much help your cause, quite the contrary, you seem to be hell-bent on continuing your line of reasoning and behavior regardless of what happens or is said here. Perhaps next time some other poor bastard actually DOES manage to kill himself and you will laugh at him as well. The goons are likely going to pop the cork for that one as well. If they have not already.
Amusingly, if I had posted the same wall of text full of assumptions, accusations, and over-the-top nonsense it'd have been immediately moderated. I reported it and nothing happened. Love the moderation around here. :D
You can put words in my mouth all day long. It's sometimes entertaining to read, and at times I almost reach up to my head to check for the horns that I'm sure are sprouting out of my temples. But really, I posted that because I thought it was an interesting twist in the discussion. The Goon in question wasn't reprimanded by CCP, he wasn't banned, the scam wasn't reversed, and unlike the Mittani incident, the victim actually did cause himself harm and claimed it was related to the scam in question. It certainly reinforces the "holding CSM members to a higher standard" position, but fogs up the bit about what you can and cannot say about someone's mental health in such a situation.
Forgive me for wanting to continue the conversation, I thought that at least some of the posters on this forum possessed the maturity to delve deeper into the issues.
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Pot stirring time.
Goons scammed some mentally instable dude out of all of his worth in EVE. Dude proceeds to fail at offing himself then posts pictures to twitter of how actually managed to down the road rather than across the street but still didn't quite do the job.
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?13161-Scammer-took-my-cash-I-feel-like-killing-myself-IRLIngame-%28blawrf-vs-human-decency%29
Right? Wrong? Should the scammer feel bad? Should he be thrown in jail, tied to a wall and tickled with feathers 12 hours a day? Electric chair? Patted on the back?
Overall, I'd chalk it up to goons being goons and EVE being EVE. My opinion of the goon in question would depend on whether he knew ahead of time that he was messing with someone unstable or if it was just another person to scam. Assuming ignorance, then it was just a goon scamming another player (surprise, surprise) and then that player doing something unfortunate of his own volition. On the other hand, if the goon knew about it and decided to ruin his day anyways... well, this is EVE, but once in a while I like to hope that deep down Goons are still human beings. Frequently they encourage this belief, other times not.
[insert recycled argument about this being EVE and how the emotionally unstable, fragile, or vulnerable shouldn't play]
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Imho the Mittani situation was due to him being CSM/Chairman and it being on an official CCP event that got streamed into the wide world - and got watched by quite a lot of people.
In essence, one shouldn't joke about it. But people on the internet talk a lot of things, and frankly you can easily - and rightly so - assume that many people that got scammed and are saying such stuff are just trying to get their stuff back via pity.
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Pot stirring time.
Goons scammed some mentally instable dude out of all of his worth in EVE. Dude proceeds to fail at offing himself then posts pictures to twitter of how actually managed to down the road rather than across the street but still didn't quite do the job.
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?13161-Scammer-took-my-cash-I-feel-like-killing-myself-IRLIngame-%28blawrf-vs-human-decency%29
Right? Wrong? Should the scammer feel bad? Should he be thrown in jail, tied to a wall and tickled with feathers 12 hours a day? Electric chair? Patted on the back?
Overall, I'd chalk it up to goons being goons and EVE being EVE. My opinion of the goon in question would depend on whether he knew ahead of time that he was messing with someone unstable or if it was just another person to scam. Assuming ignorance, then it was just a goon scamming another player (surprise, surprise) and then that player doing something unfortunate of his own volition. On the other hand, if the goon knew about it and decided to ruin his day anyways... well, this is EVE, but once in a while I like to hope that deep down Goons are still human beings. Frequently they encourage this belief, other times not.
[insert recycled argument about this being EVE and how the emotionally unstable, fragile, or vulnerable shouldn't play]
Reading his post it kinda goes both ways. The target in question brings up his mental instability early in the relationship, but the scammer chalks it up to :attentionseekingontheintarwebs: which we all know happens (literally anytime a discussion about mental health comes up in a couple channels I'm in suddenly the entire channel sounds off with their own special mental condition). He didn't really seriously believe that there were any issues until after the scam was completed, and at that point it was out of his hands, the guy had already cut himself and was posting from the hospital.
The scammer did say he poked around to some friends about the guy's alleged mental health woes, and the general consensus was one of three things: a) not your problem; b) let darwin sort it out; c) he's probably just attention-whoring. He eventually decided he couldn't play the game worrying about how seriously some people took the game outside of the game and went ahead with it.
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Amusingly, if I had posted the same wall of text full of assumptions, [Specify, please. What assumptions?] accusations, [Like what? That you support the goons no-matter what they do? That impression has not changed with anything you have done recently] and over-the-top nonsense [Over-the-top nonsense? Okay. Specify] it'd have been immediately moderated.[No you wouldn't, because...] I reported it and nothing happened. [...nothing happened. Ergo, Mods have not yet reacted and will be burning my post soon, or found nothing wrong and won't burn the post, EVER. Ergo they would not have burned yours either] Love the moderation around here. :D [So do I, in a non-sarcastic manner. So far it's actually helped me fix a few things. Or try to, at the least]
You can put words in my mouth all day long. [I have not done anything like this. Kindly point out what you believe is putting words in your mouth, because I've replied above to your own post where you bring something most of us would likely NEVER see to our attention and ask what we think, effectively rubbing a goon-scam event into our faces and asking "How is it? Good, bad?" - And I pointed this out] It's sometimes entertaining to read, and at times I almost reach up to my head to check for the horns that I'm sure are sprouting out of my temples. [Don't over-react. Claiming that my impression is that you support the goons no-matter-what is not the same as accusing you of being theebil. In fact, I've kept wondering why you do and what makes the goons so wonderful] But really, I posted that because I thought it was an interesting twist in the discussion. [It wasn't. It was a post on a forum that, again, the majority of us were likely never going to read. In it, a goon brags about scamming people (possible in eve and this is innocent in and of itself) and loving how he has a friend who helped him find this guy with mental issues and lots of assets. He detailed how they made a direct plan to scam him, hoping for a direct reaction they could gloat about. And they did. And they were proud, and happy. Happy to push about yet another guy, but this time, it was THE MOTHER-LOAD because it was someone with admitted mental problems. This does not change my impression or opinion of the goons at all] The Goon in question wasn't reprimanded by CCP, he wasn't banned, the scam wasn't reversed, and unlike the Mittani incident, the victim actually did cause himself harm and claimed it was related to the scam in question. [Mittany could have said the exact same thing he said on the CSM meeting in his own forums, and none in CCP would give a shit. That's because he would not be in a LIVE CSM MEETING with CCP's face on full display for all to see. And on the goon boards, odds are such a huge section of EVE's player-base would not be watching and possibly heeding his call. He asked them directly (the EVE populace) to go bother this guy out of game. He could not keep his tongue in such a wonderful position, and so CCP burned him for it. and not very hard, one might mention.] It certainly reinforces the "holding CSM members to a higher standard" position, [Of course it does. CCP can't allow people on a live, official feed, to call for their member-base to harass members of it out of the game on the behest of some guy who gets a kick out of this kind of behavior. This goes without saying] but fogs up the bit about what you can and cannot say about someone's mental health in such a situation.
Forgive me for wanting to continue the conversation, I thought that at least some of the posters on this forum possessed the maturity to delve deeper into the issues. [Who is making assumptions now, Bacch? Just because most seem happy to perhaps read but not write about this (for whatever reason they might have) is no call to call their maturity - of all things - into question over it. Nor is it okay for you to question mine because I apparently find the behavior of the goons disgusting and your support for them bizarre]
Replies are in the quote.
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Pot stirring time.
Goons scammed some mentally instable dude out of all of his worth in EVE. Dude proceeds to fail at offing himself then posts pictures to twitter of how actually managed to down the road rather than across the street but still didn't quite do the job.
http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?13161-Scammer-took-my-cash-I-feel-like-killing-myself-IRLIngame-%28blawrf-vs-human-decency%29
Right? Wrong? Should the scammer feel bad? Should he be thrown in jail, tied to a wall and tickled with feathers 12 hours a day? Electric chair? Patted on the back?
You scam someone online, in a game with very little IG or RL consequences for it. Fine by me.
That someone turns out to be mentally unstable and harms himself due to your ingame actions? Certainly not your fault.
Now, after you find out that that mentally unstable person has harmed themselves RL you are going to draw further attention to them? See, this is where I start thinking you need to be special flavour of something to kick someone when they are down.
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Heres the thing in this. An average person is quite fine in saying, for instance unbeliavably racists comments, only flashback of those comments is likely to be that the people who here of them are going to label you a racist.
a Politic uttering the same comments in live broadcast to most people at all interested in the matter is going to get a whole lot more flak for it. Whether you think it's fair or not.
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Catching up a bit on this one
Bach, are you suggesting it is unfair that the Goon leader was treated differently than the low-level scammer?
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Catching up a bit on this one
Bach, are you suggesting it is unfair that the Goon leader was treated differently than the low-level scammer?
I'm not really suggesting anything, I'm merely bringing up another similar story with a different outcome that garnered different reactions. I think it's an interesting to discuss the similarities and differences.
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Bacch, I don't suppose you are particularly bothered by CCP's response to the Mittani due to OOC/OOG connections? I may be miffed if my friend got treated in such and such way, too.
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Gotcha. I think the main difference is M. had an audience for his conduct and this other goon didn't?
Nobody's cheat on their wives all the time and no one cares, but when someone in the public eye does, they are held to a different standard.
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Basically. I figure CCP can't be seen condoning goading people into suicide, and that'd be the way things would be explained if they'd let Mittens' behaviour go by unpunished. This other case is simply a lot more low-profile, and a lot more murky than a public call to goad a guy into offing himself, no matter how facetious it was or wasn't.
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I suspect the majority of folks at CCP, like most people, wouldn't have given two shits about this incident had it not happened in such a high-profile manner because they wouldn't have heard about it in order to have any shits to give.
People ready/trying to off themselves because of shit happening in a video game have far more important things to be worrying about than their pixel spaceships on the internet. Like talking to a fucking doctor or people who actually give a shit and can do something to help them (aka, likely not people on the internet).
That probably comes off as a little more callously than intended, but I don't really have much patience for attentionwhores, least of all ones who use something like suicide as a method of gaining that attention.
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Bacch, I don't suppose you are particularly bothered by CCP's response to the Mittani due to OOC/OOG connections? I may be miffed if my friend got treated in such and such way, too.
v0v Besides being his doppleganger I have no connection to him whatsoever. I was bothered by the precedent of being held liable for actions at fanfest and thus OOG.
I suspect the majority of folks at CCP, like anyone with an ounce of (un)common sense, wouldn't have given two shits about this incident had it not happened in such a high-profile manner.
People ready/trying to off themselves because of shit happening in a video game have far more important things to be worrying about than their pixel spaceships on the internet. Like talking to a fucking doctor or people who actually give a shit and can do something to help them (aka, likely not people on the internet).
That probably comes off as a little more callously than intended, but I don't really have much patience for attentionwhores, least of all ones who use something like suicide as a method of gaining that attention.
It may sound callous, but that's kinda my view as well.
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I was bothered by the precedent of being held liable for actions at fanfest and thus OOG.
Reporting in here as not bothered by that at all, but thoughtful about the implications for griefer-style gameplay which is part of the character of EVE.
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I was bothered by the precedent of being held liable for actions at fanfest and thus OOG.
I think there are things that could happen OOG that I'd be happy for players to be punished for IG.
I'm thinking of the rumours I heard about people trying to find out where people were IRL so they could cut their power in the middle of a fleet, or people DDoSing/Hacking TS servers at critical times, hacking (as opposed to getting an alt recruited) enemy alliance forums, or hacking accounts. I'd be reasonably happy for CCP to have an opinion on that, and to banhammer people if there was good evidence they were involved.
There are probably other actions I'd look at and think "that's taking things too far, out of the sandpit!"
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I'd love for ilegal OOG activities like mentioned above to result in permabans.
I guess I'm just not playing the same game some of these people are.
I was bothered by the precedent of being held liable for actions at fanfest and thus OOG.
I think there are things that could happen OOG that I'd be happy for players to be punished for IG.
I'm thinking of the rumours I heard about people trying to find out where people were IRL so they could cut their power in the middle of a fleet, or people DDoSing/Hacking TS servers at critical times, hacking (as opposed to getting an alt recruited) enemy alliance forums, or hacking accounts. I'd be reasonably happy for CCP to have an opinion on that, and to banhammer people if there was good evidence they were involved.
There are probably other actions I'd look at and think "that's taking things too far, out of the sandpit!"
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I suspect the majority of folks at CCP, like anyone with an ounce of (un)common sense, wouldn't have given two shits about this incident had it not happened in such a high-profile manner.
People ready/trying to off themselves because of shit happening in a video game have far more important things to be worrying about than their pixel spaceships on the internet. Like talking to a fucking doctor or people who actually give a shit and can do something to help them (aka, likely not people on the internet).
That probably comes off as a little more callously than intended, but I don't really have much patience for attentionwhores, least of all ones who use something like suicide as a method of gaining that attention.
The Mittani is fortunate that the kid he was trying to harass didn't actually carry out the deed. If the kid actually did it, it would've been a world of shitty publicity for the game and Mittani will be in court, not sitting at home and writing retarded blogposts.
Hasn't anyone already learned about what may happen with internet harassment leading to deaths from Tyler Clementi's case? Personally nothing will give me greater joy than to see a Goon or even Mittani be given repetitive doses of prison sex as a consequence for their actions.
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I'm merely bringing up another similar story with a different outcome that garnered different reactions. I think it's an interesting to discuss the similarities and differences.
I think it's quite different, because of the difference in intent.
Intention is to obtain large amounts of assets, which is a normal gameplay gain for the swindler. The resulting harm to an individual, was a by-product which cannot reasonably be predicted, due to the game environment.
Swindling, fundamentally, there is the thing about Trust. The game environment repeatedly mentions about Trust, and how trusting the wrong person is hazardous. Therefore, you cannot reasonably trust people you do not know to be telling the truth when they say "X is an unbalanced person".
People sometimes kill themselves in poker games because of losing heavily. Do poker players get paranoid that one of their opponents might be in that situation ? I don't get the impression that's the case.
Comparison to the Mittani's thing, where the intention was to target a specific person, for no gameplay reason, other than to make them quit the game, and possibly harass them into killing themself.
There's no real way to make that into a positive thing publicity wise.
Morwen makes a point too, about the attention. There's people I've encountered, who have talked (in ooc channel) about how people should lay off them abit, because of them being "depressed" about a direction that RP went in. I think there was one thing where someone had a thing, and someone else saw them ingame doing something different, and called them out IC, and the person complained OOC, and said it was so unfair people were picking on them. It was bad.
I would feel bad, if someone killed themselves, but things like that happen. I've had friends and relatives, who I have said things to, or not said things to, and then, before anything else can happen, someone dies. It is sad, and I go "i should have done X", but life goes on. I can't be relentlessly nice and upbeat 110% of the time, and neither should I.
And people threatening to kill themselves, well, it makes me angry, because they are saying that other people, shouldn't get to enjoy a game, because of Them. Well, that's very selfish. Especially when they're not serious. Because people who are genuinely that upset, aren't generally that talkative about things.
I dunno. vOv
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But your constant blating of "the goons aren't as bad as you say" and/or "Mittens is a cool dude and don't deserve the shit he got for being an asshole" is getting tiresome; those who agree with you have stated as such, those who don't have also made it clear.
All your doing right now is underlining the feelings and opinions of the ones that don't like the goons, and don't much help your cause, quite the contrary, you seem to be hell-bent on continuing your line of reasoning and behavior regardless of what happens or is said here.
I think I understand what you're saying; that you feel the conversation has reached it's conclusion and that to repeat points is unconstructive?
He is, however, free to continue his line of reasoning regardless of what happens or what is said; insofar that if his opinion is unswayed by the arguments of others, there is no reason why his opinion should change.
As long as he is doing so in a respectful manner, I would've thought he is free to continue to express himself, regardless if his opinion is not the common consensus?
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I would feel bad, if someone killed themselves, but things like that happen. I've had friends and relatives, who I have said things to, or not said things to, and then, before anything else can happen, someone dies. It is sad, and I go "i should have done X", but life goes on. I can't be relentlessly nice and upbeat 110% of the time, and neither should I.
And people threatening to kill themselves, well, it makes me angry, because they are saying that other people, shouldn't get to enjoy a game, because of Them. Well, that's very selfish. Especially when they're not serious. Because people who are genuinely that upset, aren't generally that talkative about things.
I dunno. vOv
Whenever anyone dies, almost everyone connected with them questions whether there was anything they could have done or whether there was anything they could have done differently. I think it's worse when it's suicide, but even when someone dies in their bed at a grand old age we still question ourselves. We all feel guilt. It's part of the process.
Suicidal people are selfish and so are the people that talk in terms of being suicidal to get stuff: attention, pity, a free pass from everyone to be a dick, whatever. In the case of the former, there's probably not much the suicidal person can do about it: once you get into that state, your awareness of others is diminished and your perception of the world around you is altered by the state you are in. In the case of the latter, well, they are cunts. No one likes an attention whore. In the context of a chat channel in a game where people are supposed to having fun it's next to impossible to distinguish between the two.
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No one likes an attention whore.
:(
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Said another way, if I am playing a character and I claim to be an alt of someone else - have I broken the EULA?
Not sure if this was addressed but one of my CEO's was impersonated some time ago by an 'alt' claiming to be him (By name). His directors believed him allowing him access to the corp assets. After he stole everything he informed them that he was just faking to be him and left. We consulted the EULA, petitioned CCP and they banned his accounts, gave back all the stolen items.
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That's how I was told it works, yes. You can create however many fake 'people' as you like, but you can't impersonate existing people. Reasonably sure you won't get in trouble for RPing impersonating a character as long as you don't actually impersonate the player behind the character though.