Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Corporation and Alliance Development => Topic started by: Gesakaarin on 23 Nov 2012, 20:40
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So recently I've been toying with the idea of a potential Kaalakiota aligned organization for men and women who retain their loyalty not to Tibus Heth but rather to its previous CEO Haatakan Oiritsuu. Conceptually, an "Old Guard" of former Home Guard officers and those who considered themselves part of Oiritsuu's powerbase and that Tibus Heth and the CPD represent a danger and threat to the power and prestige of the KK brand so seek to ensure a return to the previous status quo through conspiracy, plot and backroom deals until the day the counter-revolution arrives and they can put people up against the wall.
The real issue I come up against though is that by its nature it would require a degree of duplicity (publicly presenting itself as toeing the current expected party lines whilst privately working against the current KK establishment) in addition to a required level of subtlety and complexity in its internal and external RP.
I'll try and present more concrete thoughts as I work through them, but I do have to ask others: Does working the Oiritsuu vs. Heth angle in KK rp have potential in exploring the back room knife-fighting of the Megas and the realities of corporate realpolitik?
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I think it does. The trick might be in recruiting enough people - it's also a fairly nuanced position to be in, in terms of characterization and IG politics.
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If Hamish has the time to be active, he is an excellent example of this type of character.
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My EON Fiction Competition entry is related to the resistance against Heth. (http://palinola.com/projects/yashunen/yashunen.html)
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Oh!
Hah!
And this is all that I am publicly saying on the subject.
(Other than that Hamish would be awesome.)
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My EON Fiction Competition entry is related to the resistance against Heth. (http://palinola.com/projects/yashunen/yashunen.html)
Cool story.
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So here's a provisional mission statement I wrote while intoxicated:
The corporation exists as a reactionary organization opposed to Tibus Heth and the Caldari Providence Directorate. Formed by former Home Guard officers and corporate stakeholders of Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, and Lai Dai who hold to the belief that current Kaalakiota CEO Tibus Heth and the CPD represent a clear threat to the established political order and long term interests of the Caldari State have undertaken to conspire to reinstate Haatakan Oiritsuu as the CEO of Kaalakiota Corporation, remove Tibus Heth from power as State Executor and dismantle the Caldari Providence Directorate. This decision was undertaken in order to preserve the true vision of the Caldari State as laid down by its founders and its people from those who would seek to usurp that legacy to satisfy their own agendas at the cost of the Greater Good.
The nationalist populism of the Provists has presented itself as an ideology incompatible with the preservation of the independence of corporate institutions and a stable and ordered society. The continued belligerence and bellicose rhetoric of Tibus Heth and the CPD displays a glaring inability to negotiate an honourable armistice with the Federation over Caldari Prime and risks an unnecessary escalation of conflict that provides no tangible benefits when the only reasonable outcome is the continued stalemate of a prolonged war that is held not to be in the interests of Kaalakiota Corporation or the Caldari State.
Tibus Heth has shown himself to be an incompetent and ineffectual Chief Executive, as such it falls to those who in holding to the meritocratic tradition must seek his removal from power and authority in Kaalakiota Corporation by any and all means necessary.
Still not sure if it provides enough between the lines of its rhetoric to imply that just like everything in the State, not working in the interests of powerful men and women as well as your subordinates might mean you're going to have a bad time.
I think it does. The trick might be in recruiting enough people - it's also a fairly nuanced position to be in, in terms of characterization and IG politics.
Yes, I realize this, however I tend to believe that whilst having a simple agenda such as, "We're loyal to this faction" might make recruiting easy it also carries the risk of reaching a point of, "Okay so what do we do now?" in terms of its internal RP. It's a brick wall I'd prefer to avoid by using a political agenda that provides a sense of purpose and advocates a closer look at how corporate politics functions in the State.
It's really as simple as that, sometimes a degree of complexity is required to prevent potential stagnation.
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I would highly recommend not having that as the corporation's public description, but something found with a very little bit of digging. Draw the links you have in the first paragraph (via various means, more on that later). It should be something readily apparent to anyone who bothers to read some of the corporation's material, but not necessarily someone interested in playing a Caldari pursuing X goal (whatever that maybe)*.
Frame the public description as one about not abandoning the old structure of the State merely "to give into populism, itself a Gallente notion."
For recruitment, I highly suggest addressing what game mechanics you intend to pursue. In the most generic of Eve-terms, what kind of corp is this? For example, is it NBSI, war front pirates (targeting STPRO just as much as FEDU)?
You probably need to have some established diplomatic connections with some Wirykomi and Lai Dai corporations, who are also not too fond of Heth.
Lastly, remember:
Generally regarded as the most powerful faction, the Patriots are an alliance of Lai Dai, Wiyrkomi, and the mighty Kaalakiota, who between them and their subsidiaries possess capabilities rivaling those of the other two Caldari political factions combined. They are genuinely patriotic and extremely proud.
However, that rather jingoistic pride has been mortally injured by Heth's politically vicious rise. As a result, they generally refuse to admit, even to each other, that many of the things Heth has done are exactly what they themselves have wanted to do all along. While the wounds are still too fresh for them to feel anything but hatred for him, they realize that to defy him openly would harm the State (and their dominant position within it) immeasurably, so for now they play along with him and pretend (as much to themselves as to anyone else) that they're not immensely enjoying giving the Gallente a black eye.
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So recently I've been toying with the idea of a potential Kaalakiota aligned organization for men and women who retain their loyalty not to Tibus Heth but rather to its previous CEO Haatakan Oiritsuu. Conceptually, an "Old Guard" of former Home Guard officers and those who considered themselves part of Oiritsuu's powerbase and that Tibus Heth and the CPD represent a danger and threat to the power and prestige of the KK brand so seek to ensure a return to the previous status quo through conspiracy, plot and backroom deals until the day the counter-revolution arrives and they can put people up against the wall.
The real issue I come up against though is that by its nature it would require a degree of duplicity (publicly presenting itself as toeing the current expected party lines whilst privately working against the current KK establishment) in addition to a required level of subtlety and complexity in its internal and external RP.
I'll try and present more concrete thoughts as I work through them, but I do have to ask others: Does working the Oiritsuu vs. Heth angle in KK rp have potential in exploring the back room knife-fighting of the Megas and the realities of corporate realpolitik?
But have you thought about what would Oiritsuu say herself? I don't think she would support any anti-State movement or split in her corporation.
What I don't like, that this line will move through:
- being a traitor
- being a reactionist
- living in past
- being a rebel
- semi-criminal organization
The main problem with 'knife-fighting' ideas in Megacorps is that many things have changed greatly after Heth reforms, and you don't earn your positions by relatives, conspiracies and skullduggery anymore, but rather by your merits. In these times even not loyal corporation's opposition can be called a treason, especially under heavy sight of Provist agents. What to say about KK, when the Executor himself becomes a target?
This can mean only one: you will become enemy of peoples and of the state as a whole, not only 'new KK management'. And it will end very very badly.
However, I'd like to notice, that my opinion is very very highly biased to the fact, that I personally really hate ideas of treason, thievery and criminality in common. So you might as well just ignore me >_>
And while you are ignoring me, I'd like to remind you, what one Stormtrooper said: "Die, rebel scum!" :P
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But have you thought about what would Oiritsuu say herself? I don't think she would support any anti-State movement or split in her corporation.
What I don't like, that this line will move through:
- being a traitor
- being a reactionist
- living in past
- being a rebel
- semi-criminal organization
The main problem with 'knife-fighting' ideas in Megacorps is that many things have changed greatly after Heth reforms, and you don't earn your positions by relatives, conspiracies and skullduggery anymore, but rather by your merits. In these times even not loyal corporation's opposition can be called a treason, especially under heavy sight of Provist agents. What to say about KK, when the Executor himself becomes a target?
This can mean only one: you will become enemy of peoples and of the state as a whole, not only 'new KK management'. And it will end very very badly.
However, I'd like to notice, that my opinion is very very highly biased to the fact, that I personally really hate ideas of treason, thievery and criminality in common. So you might as well just ignore me >_>
And while you are ignoring me, I'd like to remind you, what one Stormtrooper said: "Die, rebel scum!" :P
Seconding this.
It's a great idea, but even semi-passive resistance to Heth causes serious and harsh consequences. Just look at Ishukone, and everybody playing Ishukone.
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It's a great idea, but even semi-passive resistance to Heth causes serious and harsh consequences. Just look at Ishukone, and everybody playing Ishukone.
IMHO even Ishukone doesn't resist Heth. Although they show some conceit and don't always follow his rules, still they are part of CPD and have granted strategic control of their industrial operations to Heth. Besides, Ishukone people started to live better too.
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It's a great idea, but even semi-passive resistance to Heth causes serious and harsh consequences. Just look at Ishukone, and everybody playing Ishukone.
IMHO even Ishukone doesn't resist Heth. Although they show some conceit and don't always follow his rules, still they are part of CPD and have granted strategic control of their industrial operations to Heth. Besides, Ishukone people started to live better too.
My understanding is that Templar One says otherwise (like to the point of IW/Mordu fleet engaging CN fleet).
In addition, we are relying on scant little insight to what the CPD's actual powers are and strategic control can be very different. Strategic control is great, but you still have to overcome institutional structures that oppose the "New World Order."
Heth's control over just parts of KK's assets is limited by Federal, Republic, Empire, and Kingdom law. Only two corporations actually have the all of their actual assets (Stations) in the State (Hyasyoda and Lai Dai).
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Poo... I won't do any missions for Ishukone anymore! :lol:
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If Hamish has the time to be active, he is an excellent example of this type of character.
Actually because of the complete retcon of KK during the Brothers of Freedom live events, Oriitsuu-haani is the only person Hamish loathes more than Heth-haan. She’s the antithesis of all the Kaalakiota stood for. But yes “old guard” Home Guard officer was Hamish and I always dreamed of getting a ‘rebel’ Kaalakiota capsuleer corp going.
Gesakaarin,
If you do this, I wish you good luck but I beg you not to rally around Haatakan Oiritsuu. She’s not actually part of the “old guard” but rahter is part of the “new guard” that messed everything up and let Heth take over.
Perhaps some of my projects in this vein could inspire you?
The "Family Bonds" article was ghost written by Hamish/Saatigo and published by a Lai Dai subsidiary. When combined with his essay "Rise of the institutional investor and failing corporate oversight" it outlines his perception of the causes of Kaalakiota's fall, even if he does not outright point to KK. The TLDR version being the founding family was bought out over time by other institutions (CFU) and the so called professional CEOs like Haatakan Oiritsuu that they hired were more focused on share holder equity than on the core values (such as treating employees well) that made Kaalakiota the largest and most profitable Caldari corporation in the first place.
When Heth-haan took over Kaalakiota the first thing he did was seize the property and pay of every middle manager and up of the Kaalakiota corporation and presumably all subs including the Home Guard. That’s hundreds of millions of employees who had their homes and everything else taken from them and then forced to work without pay until the Provist decided they would either be demoted, fired, jailed, disappeared or allowed to keep their current job (without pay). The concept behind the Guardsmen would have been that Hamish started collecting as many of these displaced employees as he could afford to employ (Ship crews, POS crews, colony workers etc).
After all these were the former Kaalakiota elite. The people who ran it’s research and development projects, managed its finances and new every detail of its daily operations and they are very motivated against the Provists.. What better resource to stage a rebellion could there be?
Rise of the institutional investor and failing corprate oversight (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/32687-1)
Iaam Ishanoya. "Family bonds." The Karnola Financial Reader (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=22989)
(http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs44/f/2009/162/a/a/Guardsmen_Logo_by_Johnnygeeksheek.jpg)
Original concept art for the Guardsmen. Unfortunately I lost the amazing one Ken made for me when my laptop died :cry:
(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs45/f/2009/079/4/8/Saatigo__s_Card_by_Johnnygeeksheek.jpg)
The two faces of "Hamish Grayson.”
[spoiler]P.S. Hamish is unlikely to escape that provist prision anytime soon.[/spoiler]
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Pondering this idea further, there really is a difficulty in the fact that the level at which this sort of corporate politics functions in Kaalakiota is with its shareholders (familial and institutional) and that there is no current in-game means to engage with those characters added to the fact that even though there might be grave disagreement with the reforms of Heth within Kaalakiota, it would not mean that it would lead to outright violentdisagreement. Such matters are again, the concern of the shareholders and the expectation would be to carry out the expected duties in the public arena, especially for those who consider themselves military professionals. The means of dissent would be kept in private to such an extent that externally, the corporation would remain indistinguishable from any other loyal subsidiary of KK.
There's also the undeniable fact that while there are legitimate concerns regarding Heth's policies, he has accomplished what any loyal Kaalakiota citizen would want: a Kaalakiota CEO leading the CEP and the State as its Executor and dictating its policies which (at least in their view) is the rightful place of Kaalakiota and its citizens.
As such, I think the best option is to push any political aspects of a potential Kaalakiota (perhaps with a nominal Wiyrkomi/Lai Dai/Patriot) aligned corporation and play the angle of being the consummate private military professionals who will prosecute their duty, tasks and most importantly their contractual obligations with the simple philosophy that what is good for Kaalakiota and the Patriots is good for the State and what is good for the State is the only moral and ethical imperative of any importance. There may be objections to that philosophy but frankly opinions count for nothing when the corporation is beholden only to its shareholders and its clients.
From that standpoint the objective will be to explore and build upon the, "Ronin" type mercenary culture in the State; the conduct of corporate diplomacy with high-explosives; and all that violent and dark cyberpunk-esque element of the State done with a Patriot twist. More a home perhaps for "Bad Caldari", the ones that live on the fringes of State society for one reason or another and hired by the company because men and women whose loyalties can be bought out are those whose lives can be easily expended in the name of Kaalakiota and the State and who would fit in far better in the darker world the corporation is envisioned to operate.
Far easier to leave what happens to Heth and Oiritsuu with CCP themselves in the long-term and maintain a degree of centrism and staunch loyalty to Kaalakiota than being concerned with what there is no real power or ability to change in-game.
The real issue I come up against though is that by its nature it would require a degree of duplicity (publicly presenting itself as toeing the current expected party lines whilst privately working against
The main problem with 'knife-fighting' ideas in Megacorps is that many things have changed greatly after Heth reforms, and you don't earn your positions by relatives, conspiracies and skullduggery anymore, but rather by your merits.
I will respond with this:
...They're fully aware, though, that this state of affairs won't last forever, and they're quietly assembling plans to ensure that when he is brought down, the Practicals won't find themselves hamstrung by the other corporations. If in the end they have to topple Heth themselves, then that's what they'll do. In the meantime, they're content to beat the war-drums and use the fighting as a cover for their other activities. (Link (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/State_of_the_Caldari_State,_110.06.11))
I could also point out just off the top of my head, the assassination of Heth's right hand man Janus or hell, maybe this:
Each great family maintains their own personal army to protect their private interests from other families, though unlike the relatively more well-known conflicts between the Big Eight, such confrontations occur behind-the-scenes of Caldari society. In many ways, these great families are significantly disconnected from the Caldari masses while still exhibiting massive influence over them. It is commonly the case that the great families will be the ones who influence a megacorporate board’s decision as to who they appoint next. Often when attempting to place their kin in position of CEO, internecine feuds and disputes will erupt between these great families, independent of the cross-corporate conflicts
To counter your assertion that Heth and the CPD have eliminated the back room politicking in the State that occurs behind the scenes. In the end, the power Heth and the CPD wields is because he is the majority shareholder and CEO of Kaalakiota, not the other way around and he still has to go up against individuals, families and institutions that are powerful, wealthy and have their own interests because that's just how the State works.
I think even Heth understands that there's probably no better way to get himself killed than to threaten those families and institutions to such an extent that they collectively decide he's a greater problem than each other.
Edit: There's also the fact that if Heth and CPD were attempting to "reform" the power that wealthy families have over State Megacorporations it would mean, for one, at least being in direct opposition to the Seituoda Family of Wiyrkomi which last I checked has not occurred. Unless I might have missed something lately?
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Pondering this idea further, there really is a difficulty in the fact that the level at which this sort of corporate politics functions in Kaalakiota is with its shareholders (familial and institutional) and that there is no current in-game means to engage with those characters added to the fact that even though there might be grave disagreement with the reforms of Heth within Kaalakiota, it would not mean that it would lead to outright violentdisagreement. Such matters are again, the concern of the shareholders and the expectation would be to carry out the expected duties in the public arena, especially for those who consider themselves military professionals. The means of dissent would be kept in private to such an extent that externally, the corporation would remain indistinguishable from any other loyal subsidiary of KK.
Oh my god, somebody who gets it!
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Pondering this idea further, there really is a difficulty in the fact that the level at which this sort of corporate politics functions in Kaalakiota is with its shareholders (familial and institutional) and that there is no current in-game means to engage with those characters added to the fact that even though there might be grave disagreement with the reforms of Heth within Kaalakiota, it would not mean that it would lead to outright violentdisagreement. Such matters are again, the concern of the shareholders and the expectation would be to carry out the expected duties in the public arena, especially for those who consider themselves military professionals. The means of dissent would be kept in private to such an extent that externally, the corporation would remain indistinguishable from any other loyal subsidiary of KK.
Oh my god, somebody who gets it!
+1 to Hamish and Veik. Gotta agree and the new wiki stuff really does open the doors to all this double speak politicking, while still allowing us to be productive citizens of the State.
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+1 to Hamish and Veik. Gotta agree and the new wiki stuff really does open the doors to all this double speak politicking, while still allowing us to be productive citizens of the State.
Years ago, I was trying to walk a fine line between Patriot and Provist on IGS; the subtle difference was lost on most or I didn't portray it very well. I think John and the folks at I-RED picked up on it and we had the long time shadow war of words. It is a tough spot to be in.
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Years ago, I was trying to walk a fine line between Patriot and Provist on IGS; the subtle difference was lost on most or I didn't portray it very well. I think John and the folks at I-RED picked up on it and we had the long time shadow war of words. It is a tough spot to be in.
I think what I've found both difficult and rewarding in portraying a Caldari character is that in many respects the State has a very rich and subtle undercurrent of corporate politics, social protocols and unwritten cultural norms that almost demands the ability to wear a lot of different masks dependent on context and situation.
There's all kinds of angles that need to be played and factors to be considered and what a Caldari says in public can often differ from their own private views. There was a reason why I enjoyed the old verbal sparring matches with Dex on the IGS years back because he was an intelligent Patriot who understood the State game and was always a challenge to pin down or deploy the Fed Spin against. :)
I like being in a tough spot though, some of my best RP shenanigans happen in them and it should be fun to see how the use of the infamous Deteis silver tongues work out in the interests of Kaalakiota. :lol:
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I'm trying to play Kat a bit more two faced lately, and she even exhibits qualities of a Patriot at times. I've also been working on that silver tongue.
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I found a copy of the art work ken did for me :D
(http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/278/9/f/ken__s_gm_logo_by_johnnygeeksheek-d4bvr69.jpg)
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The thing I like about this idea is that it doesn't totally abandon the concept of loyalty to the State, instead working on what the group's vision of the State is.
I don't mean to poke at anyone elses RP, of course, but for me the idea of playing a Caldari who was anything but devoted to the ideals of the State would be to be stripping away the third dimension and embracing a rather more flat characterisation in which simple drives come to the fore.
And it feels like that would be missing the point. It's the semi-altruistic aspects of the State that throw the harsher stuff into sharp relief and provide some justification for them. Otherwise you're just putting the boot in so that you can pad your own bank account - and that seems boring to me.
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The thing I like about this idea is that it doesn't totally abandon the concept of loyalty to the State, instead working on what the group's vision of the State is.
I don't mean to poke at anyone elses RP, of course, but for me the idea of playing a Caldari who was anything but devoted to the ideals of the State would be to be stripping away the third dimension and embracing a rather more flat characterisation in which simple drives come to the fore.
And it feels like that would be missing the point. It's the semi-altruistic aspects of the State that throw the harsher stuff into sharp relief and provide some justification for them. Otherwise you're just putting the boot in so that you can pad your own bank account - and that seems boring to me.
I've sometimes thought that for Caldari there exists no such thing as perfection, only varying degrees of imperfection. There is no black or white, only varying degrees of grey.
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I see what you did there.
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<snip>
However, I'd like to notice, that my opinion is very very highly biased to the fact, that I personally really hate ideas of treason, thievery and criminality in common. So you might as well just ignore me >_>
And while you are ignoring me, I'd like to remind you, what one Stormtrooper said: "Die, rebel scum!" :P
To paraphrase that old Nipponese parable on being a good Samurai, if it works it isn't treason. It is, in fact, meritorious by virtue of having worked.
Also, consider the fate of the aforementioned Stormptrooper. :lol:
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Perhaps it has already begun (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=188298&find=unread)? ;)
As to whether or not the loyalties of Gesakaarin-haani lie with Heth or Oiritsuu, well, women always have their secrets don't they?
Certainly, it's a fun time to be a Caldari Patriot.
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whether or not the loyalties of Gesakaarin-haani lie with Heth or Oiritsuu
Neither is good for a Wiyrkomi corp.
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Neither is good for a Wiyrkomi corp.
Quite the apt observation.
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What can possibly go wrong, eh?
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What can possibly go wrong, eh?
Distant anti-Heth Patriots interrupt the internal audit with a buy-out? WHG can't be that expensive ;)
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I accept donations! ;)
But I was more commenting on the whole audit. What can go wrong with that. We're upstanding and dutiful citizens and have nothing to fear. :oops:
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What can possibly go wrong, eh?
Distant anti-Heth Patriots interrupt the internal audit with a buy-out? WHG can't be that expensive ;)
Reclusive board member of distant anti-heth Patriots pushes for release of more shares in order to finally gain 51% He founds a Home Guard aligned corp. Thus a new Alliance is born on the platform of restoring the CEP.
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What can possibly go wrong, eh?
Distant anti-Heth Patriots interrupt the internal audit with a buy-out? WHG can't be that expensive ;)
Reclusive board member of distant anti-heth Patriots pushes for release of more shares in order to finally gain 51% He founds a Home Guard aligned corp. Thus a new Alliance is born on the platform of restoring the CEP.
I-RED stands with this idea!
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Distant anti-Heth Patriots interrupt the internal audit with a buy-out? WHG can't be that expensive ;)
Even those Patriots opposed to Heth have to toe the party line until the day it can be said, The King is dead. Long live the King.
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I kind of hope the phrase is "The King is dead, we have reorganised the hierarchy and there is no more need for a King." IC loyalties notwithstanding the State really would be better if the Executor was simply Primum Inter Pares and not a dictator.
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IC loyalties notwithstanding the State really would be better if the Executor was simply Primum Inter Pares and not a dictator.
I would agree, but in the end CCP will do as they please, and I have little interest in playing, "Waiting for Godot" in Eve.
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Spoiler alert: Godot doesn't show up.
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Well, I've decided to create a corporation -- Pyre Falcon Defence and Security, that should incorporate some of the thoughts and ideas provided in this thread (My thanks) in addition to some others that were not.
Guess we'll see what the future holds. :)
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I admit I chuckled reading this in hindsight, especially given some of the thoughts and commentary therein. :lol:
It's great when things go just as planned. 8)
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It's been a pleasure watching your corporation blossom.