Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Lillith Blackheart on 26 May 2010, 20:04
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...what's with the bad blood and people taking it personally?
It's a game, people. There's a number of posts I'm seeing on IC boards that are obviously OOC posts, and a number of posts on OOC boards directly attacking us about what happened.
I put forth the suggestion that anyone that is angry about this (not IC angry, that's totally cool, rip me apart IC I love it) takes a step back, a few deep breaths, sets some multi-day skills to train....
...and takes some time off.
This is getting ridiculous.
This is a public message not to start a discussion, it's just a public request. An open letter if you will. Feel free to lock it up if you think it will get out of hand.
But c'mon people, from one player to another -- let it go, relax, and have fun with it. This has been getting way too personal for some of you.
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Remind them:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2080/2182297937_52f203b329.jpg)
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While its less excuseable to the veteran roleplayers, it can be made in defense of the newer ones that gotten hooked into the event to roleplay some. That actions made in character should be taken only in character, and not personally. Sometimes its a point people have to remember occasionally as well when things become more intense.
We're all here to have fun, aren't we? Thought me cracking out more silly stuff than I normally do on a message board to lighten the mood helped. =/
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/me shrugs
I thought it was well played. Can't complain here, I got to shoot things (even if it was horribly laggy). Petition for node reinforcement next time, just in case. :P
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Yeah, tbh we didn't expect the PL/NC wtfpwn squad to show up. We were expecting ~150 people on your side and ~150 on ours. And it was fine at those levels. But when another ~300 showed up from the PL/NC brigade, it went nuts.
But that's not the point.
This came to my attention because, and I stress that I have never reported any posts before anywhere, I have been debating reporting more than one post on the IGS forums for being OOC sniping on an IC board, and I've been getting some pretty heavy OOC flak over this.
It's pretty nuts, and people need to chill the fuck out. :)
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[admin]I'm not going to lock this, yet. I see a lot of potential for it to get out of hand, though, so I would ask people to please consider very carefully before hitting post. I would also like to point out a specific sentence from the FAQ:
You are here as the player, not the as the character.
There may be a broader discussion to be had about IC deception (if it wasn't all covered in the corp theft thread), but I think it would be better to start a separate thread for that if people feel it is needed.The mod team will be watching this thread.[/admin]
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To me, this is the same symptom as people taking the rest of the game too seriously. Emoragequitting because somebody suicide ganked their pimped-out Hulk or tracking down a corp thief IRL and making threats in meatspace. Those things happen, too, and it makes me sad.
I've said for years that most RPers (including me at one time or another) don't separate IC and OOC nearly as well as we like to think we do.
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If I'm honest I've been getting frustrated recently. But it's between a mix of me throwing my character (and with it myself) at the deep end of getting involved in this on the defence against the Nation side, and having to put up with players (not characters) in various channels who are..
A: Not there for the RP (despite the channels requesting to keep it IC)
B: Not there to work as a team. They just want in on shiny killmails.
C: Making the same mistakes people already made and not listening.
But thinking about it seriously, it's no different than any other situation where you put yourself in a group of random people, there's always going to be some Village's idiot out on his or her big adventure.
As for some of the targeted OOC stuff I've seen between people, it's a game guys CTFO.
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I'm not going to lock this, yet. I see a lot of potential for it to get out of hand
As I said, Silver, I completely understand if you need to lock this. I would request, though, that if moderator action needs to be taken, the whole thread doesn't go to the Catacombs. At the very least if the initial post could be kept, I would appreciate it, because I think it's something people need to be reminded of. It's actually kinda depressing me a little.
A: Not there for the RP (despite the channels requesting to keep it IC)
B: Not there to work as a team. They just want in on shiny killmails.
C: Making the same mistakes people already made and not listening.
I can completely understand the frustration here, Caellach. I'll be entirely honest with you -- we've been pretty unforgiving of that on the Nation side. We've booted people out of the channel CCP set up for us for not RPing, and we've ostracized people that are in there just begging for True Slave implants or other loot being given to them by CCP.
I like to think we're justified in such policing, but that may just be the elitist in me, and I readily admit that it is there. We also have some non-RPers in there that are still there, because they don't play up that stuff, they truly just want to be part of the event, because they think events are cool. IMO, those people are just as solid as those in it for the RP.
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A: Not there for the RP (despite the channels requesting to keep it IC)
B: Not there to work as a team. They just want in on shiny killmails.
C: Making the same mistakes people already made and not listening.
I can completely understand the frustration here, Caellach. I'll be entirely honest with you -- we've been pretty unforgiving of that on the Nation side. We've booted people out of the channel CCP set up for us for not RPing, and we've ostracized people that are in there just begging for True Slave implants or other loot being given to them by CCP.
I like to think we're justified in such policing, but that may just be the elitist in me, and I readily admit that it is there. We also have some non-RPers in there that are still there, because they don't play up that stuff, they truly just want to be part of the event, because they think events are cool. IMO, those people are just as solid as those in it for the RP.
I envy you guys for that. If you weren't all evil despicable toaster humping scum I'd be broken down enough to consider jumping sides =p
The biggest problem is dealing with idiocy in an IC fashion. After Ation it was a given in SYNEPublic that Ghost Hunter is an obvious decoy and following him around on a blind merrygoround is pointless.
Ever since then it's been
"I think Sansha are going to attack here."
"Any sign of them in Local"
"No but Ghost Hunter..."
Last night the channel was whipped up in a mass frenzy of either IC or OOC stupidity, sadly I can't really tell which it was. But all people had to go on was intel and the fact Ghost Hunter had been seen hanging around there and then "OMG HE'S LIGHTING A CYNO" and more people jumping in.
People joining or not reading 3 lines of text above their "WHERE IS THE EVENT?" and blatently disregarding the point of the channel and the whole thing just became a giant clusterfuck. It's an IC channel where people are suppose to be trained capsuleers, the truth is that channel was like a group of excited 14 year old boys who just found a discarded porn mag in the nearby woods.
I've got mod access in that channel, and I tried cleaning it up for about 4-5 days. It ended up being a full time job for the hours I was online and I got zero time to undock myself and enjoy the event, doubled up with the crap and grief I got from people who were banned, their mates were banned, their alliance members were banned and I just thought "well fuck this"
Problem is, that not everyone in that channel is like that, there's a good group of people that are serious about working together in the events and like you have Lilith not all may be RP;ers but they at least behave in a responsible manner in the channel. Furthermore it's the only real resource to co-ordinate a decent defence across the four empires, not everyone joins the set up local channels.
Anyway I'm ranting >.< I'd spend time in EVE doing anything else, but it's Sansha. There's nothing Cael would rather do than blow as many up as often as he can.
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Hell I loved it. My lil ole Drake got blown up by several cap ships, and I didnt know about it till 5 minutes later. I got a laugh out of that, had a chance to RP, and flew in the biggest fleet Ive ever been in. All in all it was a win for me. Woulda been cooler without the lag, but im not gonna complain I knew it would be laggy and that I would probably die going in, and I'd do it again in a heartbeat.
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More roleplayers actually PvPing? Win.
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Caellach, sorry to say it seemed more or like as a given it would end up ooc heaven in syne. Many that are using that are not roleplayers in any way except perhaps lolrp. As you said there is a solid group on rpers there but tends to get drowned out.
As for Lilliths original post, yes, a number of people seem to take this way to seriously. Seen it in a minor way in the alliance/copr where it manifests like "well, last time i bother putting any time into this event crap". No matter that it was never any part as such of the events.
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For the record.
This should never be said to someone:
"best to put your hands up and say, "sorry that wasn't official, we messed up a bit" you gotta remember, people are pissed off at you OOC-not Ic ... Its nto good for the game"
Ever.
If it is the case you are feeling that way, it's not the people who ran a spontaneous player event that are the problem. Understand that.
That is very important.
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It was awesome stuff you people did there Lilith :yar:
I'd have been there to lose another Drake to you people, but my connection decided to die 15 minutes prior to the "Final Sansha Invasion" :D
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I thought the evening was a lot of fun OOC, and IC it gave me some justification to distance Ken from the Gal-led SYNE while winning PR points at home. I've also noticed some of the very thinly veiled (if that) OOC activity in IGS, and it's too bad that we're seeing that. Still, most of the big players involved seem to be RPing the aftermath rather well.
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I'll be quite honest, i loved the fact it was a setup made by players to grief other players, specially of the oppossing faction. Did it go out of hand? tough luck.
What troubles me is that this player-lead event looked a lot like a CCP sponsored one, the info i got was so well thought and correlated with other articles in chronicles and Omune Balenne's posts on eve-o that i honestly believed it.
The issue is, for every upcoming piece of "info" or rumour that i will get, i'll have to just not take it as something coming from CCP until it is proven otherwise, how can i do that? why would i do that? do i care that much? short answer is no.
I might be the only one thinking that, but i bet a numbers of people who were eager to jump into the RP bandwagon because finally CCP was providing an interesting sandbox area to try it, will think it twice knowing there are other players inside the box already taking the sand out.
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Is it taking the sand out, or is it just continuing to play along with it?
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While I was skeptical of the whole thing (mind you I'm hearing this all in SYNE while not actually being there), there remained a small bit of hope of maybe... just maybe, something as dynamic as a low-sec sov change would happen as a possible result of it. That would be crazy.
So much for that, huh? :P
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I might be the only one thinking that, but i bet a numbers of people who were eager to jump into the RP bandwagon because finally CCP was providing an interesting sandbox area to try it, will think it twice knowing there are other players inside the box already taking the sand out.
I would suggest it's more like there are other players inside the box building a little village out of sand to play with their toys in.
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I think it is that things like this are possible that makes Eve a game worth playing.
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I might be the only one thinking that, but i bet a numbers of people who were eager to jump into the RP bandwagon because finally CCP was providing an interesting sandbox area to try it, will think it twice knowing there are other players inside the box already taking the sand out.
I would suggest it's more like there are other players inside the box building a little village out of sand to play with their toys in.
nope, in true eve's spirit it was clever people manipulating others to believe they could do sand castles, without even knowing the sand already had an owner and it was all a plot to destroy any sand castles present there to harvest sweet sweet tears.
The above is completely hilarious and entirely within the concept of what eve is, a cage for people to mess with each other as much as possible.
But the point i'm arguing, is it conducive to any future efforts for CCP to do any live events? you see, is not if players should have or should have not planned anything like that, my point is that it was done so well, that from now it makes a precedent. People will escalate upon that.
If you are a Sansha loyalist, would you believe any "intel" send to you in RP form from within an evemail? it could very well be the guys who got surprised in Maut planning to do a counter-player event to grief back (the principle of if you throw me a brick, ill throw you 2 back).
What if it was really CCP trying to do another live event?.
We didn't crash anything between players, we augmented it, but effectively put any CCP effort for future live events out of the ring.
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So only CCP should arrange roleplay events? Do I understand your position correctly?
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I think ultimately it won't be harmful that people's exuberance over events is tempered with a healthy amount of caution. Particularly low sec events.
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nope, in true eve's spirit it was clever people manipulating others to believe they could do sand castles, without even knowing the sand already had an owner and it was all a plot to destroy any sand castles present there to harvest sweet sweet tears.
Harvesting tears wasn't our goal. You seem to think our intentions were OOC. They were not. The actions were entirely in character. The response, on the other hand, has not been.
We made a little village out of sand. We've got a bunch of toys here, people are welcome to come play if they want.
But the point i'm arguing, is it conducive to any future efforts for CCP to do any live events? you see, is not if players should have or should have not planned anything like that, my point is that it was done so well, that from now it makes a precedent. People will escalate upon that.
The precedent was made years ago. I assume everyone here knows who Istvaan is and why that name is important. Is it conducive? No. Is it going to slow it down? No. It's really not going to change anything other than people second-guessing things, which is good.
Also, they're just going to forget it soon anyway, so the mountain is really a molehill. Everyone's just grumpy because they got had, and are taking it personally even though it has nothing to do with them specifically.
It's just a game, people move on.
If you are a Sansha loyalist, would you believe any "intel" send to you in RP form from within an evemail?
You're asking the wrong person, as I am a Sansha loyalist, and the fact that I wouldn't believe any intel sent me in RP form from within an evemail has nothing to do with the event. I wouldn't believe it in the first place unless I had some other evidence that it was acceptably true.
it could very well be the guys who got surprised in Maut planning to do a counter-player event to grief back (the principle of if you throw me a brick, ill throw you 2 back).
To which they are welcome to try, because this is a game. Our actions were in character actions. If someone wants to get us back for it in character they may go right ahead.
I don't start screaming at Verone about how horrible he is for being a big piratey jerkface because I got caught by VETO once in a blue moon. I accept my lumps, I learn from it, and I get the fuck over it, because it's a game.
The fact that people are taking this so personally is the only reason that it is even remotely capable of having a deleterious affect on the CCP live events. If people weren't responding in such an OOC personal way, it would have no impact whatsoever.
What if it was really CCP trying to do another live event?.
Then I guess I lose out on that one, don't I? (Hint: I missed out on a few of the events in this chain for just this reason, but I'm still partaking in it, and I'm still having fun).
[admin]I took out that last bit, much though I am usually against snip moderation, because I felt it didn't change the content of the rest of the post. Please post a reply and respond again in a more constructive way, if you would like, Lilith. I realize that tempers on both sides may tend to run high just now.[/admin]
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[admin]I think this thread has had some valuable discussion on both sides, regarding different points of view on this issue. Please try to keep it civil.[/admin]
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The precedent was made years ago. I assume everyone here knows who Istvaan is and why that name is important. Is it conducive? No. Is it going to slow it down? No. It's really not going to change anything other than people second-guessing things, which is good.
I have to disagree with this one bit, though I mostly echo the rest of your comment. The most well-known GHSC exploit has drawn many thousands of players to EVE and fascinated countless others. This sort of duplicity and information warfare comes with the territory, and if we want players who embrace the EVE design philosophy rather than folks solely looking to make friends through random encounters (a la the Butterfly Effect trailer), then we should be championing this sort of event.
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[admin]Saying 'You are either lying, or being foolish' - more or less emphatically - is still outside the guidelines and is not helpful to the discussion. People can and will lie, or make mistakes. They will often also have views and opinions so different from yours that they may, indeed, be difficult to fathom. We try to give the benefit of the doubt, here, that it is the last, rather than either of the former.The reason that I didn't clip your entire earlier post is that you offered constructive counter-examples, etc. That is the way to do it.Now, I have to go to a family event. If I come back to a mess, I'm going to hand out warnings.[/admin]
I have to disagree with this one bit, though I mostly echo the rest of your comment. The most well-known GHSC exploit has drawn many thousands of players to EVE and fascinated countless others. This sort of duplicity and information warfare comes with the territory, and if we want players who embrace the EVE design philosophy rather than folks solely looking to make friends through random encounters (a la the Butterfly Effect trailer), then we should be championing this sort of event.
That's not disagreeing with what I said. That was the precedent that was set. :)
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I apologize for misunderstanding your point, then. Carry on! :)
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First rule of EVE: Harden the fuck up. You either learn it, or you're bound to burn out and leave the game sooner or later anyway.
If getting tricked by your enemies - in an act of counter-espionage, no less - causes potential roleplayers to not get further involved in roleplay or events, then I for one am not the least bit sad to see them go.
I don't see at all why something like this makes further events from CCP impossible - or even impairs it at all - in any way, shape or form, but even in the event that it did, I'd rather have no events at all than an event structure which wouldn't allow private player initiatives like this.
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[admin]Cleaned, hopefully for the last time. I will probably be cranky when I get back, try to make it a relaxing evening for me, folks? Please?[/admin]
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I really don't understand what the problem is. If I wanted to be told what I can and can't do in a video game I'd be playing a JRPG. :/
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Seems i'm a retard trying to explain my point....but i'll try one more time.
Roleplaying between player-factions -> yes it will spur activity, people will try to get back even at the Nation loyalists, in any way possible, as it is eve's spirit.
I'm good with that? yes i'm static with that! HTFU, lets pew pew, lets blow each other to hell, bring the spies, the scams, the drama!.
Roleplaying between CCP and Players -> i'll have to double check, triple check, and just be on the safe side, blob the event, just in case it isnt a CCP event and the player faction is trying to do something fishy. I'll treat deferently any "contacts" unless its blue/yellow/purple-ish color talking (and even so i think someone will find a way to add color to evemails making it more the case of fake setup).
Is that HFTU? to me it isn't, is just placing a paranoia barrier to CCP, and any volunteering staff that is willing to do any event at all ingame.
It is a game, but i feel we have just opened a pandora box as to how people will react to CCP driven events....not sure if i'm clear now.....but between players anything goes, we are sociopaths, murderers, lyers, and just plain barbarians cause the game allows us to be free in those ways, and people learn to interact ingame and in character with such reality, we HFTU pick up again and do our RPing the way we like it, that is fine i get it...don't repeat it to me endlessly.
What happens when we treat CCP that same way?, what happens when we receive CCP in the same way we receive opposing players and nemesis? one could argue, "i'ts their game they created such rules, they should HTFU and learn from us". Somehow, i feel it won't work within that context, and if that's so, we had the best live event arch (Sansha resurrection) and just killed it.
:( perhaps people don't care about such interaction, but if i was working for CCP as an event employee, not sure i would like to throw myself into that.
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But that's the thing, Bruno -- that's really not what happened.
People received information from someone that was trying to spy on us. We didn't even at any point say Sansha would be there or that Slaves would be there, or anything of that nature. That was entirely manufactured in the SynePublic channel. That was all you guys (you being generic, not meaning Bruno).
There was nothing that came from CCP. There was nothing that indicated "CCP IS INVOLVED WITH THIS" until people took it and ran with it.
This is what I meant in the other thread when I said "We couldn't have done it without you. :) " to Soter. I wasn't being snide, I wasn't being a jerk. It simply was true. People went crazy on it and the lie built itself from nothing more than "Oh wow, this dude is trying to backstab me. Was there an attack coming? Oh, yeah, we were planning a big attack on Maut."
That's it.
Everything else from there, besides a few small details (like it being planet 6 and involving a TCU) were made up by the "other side". We never told them that there would be Sansha (until the point at which the guy was in the group we never even mentioned the Slaves), we never told them that there would be Slaves. We just never told them they weren't. We let them take it and run with it.
The group that we -- in character -- were trying to fool manufactured the entire event with only a few time and date details submitted by us.
We manufactured no evidence. We never indicted CCP to be involved. This is important because everyone is ignoring it.
So again.... is it going to hamper anything? Not likely at all. If it does it would only happen because people are taking it personally. Will people think twice before getting info from a source? I should damn well hope so.
That isn't going to impact CCP's event team at all. It's really obvious when something is coming straight from the horse's mouth. Either the character is 150 years old or it's in an NPC corp -- purple or blue text notwithstanding.
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Even if it had happened exactly that way, with us planting carefully constructed lies and nothing getting embellished upon by the receiving side, I disagree that it constitutes that kind of Pandora's box at all.
First off, as Lillith said, CCP can make their characters belong to any kind of NPC corporation that regular players can't possibly get into, and create an employment record for said characters which is longer than the game has existed. Plus, they talk in funny colors. If they want you to know that they're CCP, you will know it.
Second, being critical of intel does not have to mean dismissing it out of hand as "potentially false and therefore probably false", and sitting in station doing nothing - nor should it. It can in fact mean something so simple as ordering the bulk of the assembled lynch mob to stay put in the adjoining high security system (where they can't be dropped capitals on) and sending a handful of scouts in to verify that the enemy is on the field before committing the entire force to the fight. If it turns out to be just a ruse, then all it costs you is the trip. If it's genuine, you'll be ready to respond in full force immediately upon confirming it as such.
Being cautious does not necessitate ignoring credible intel (and CCP's endeavors to sponsor events) at all.
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Interestingly, the source for the Ishaeka reports to me was a simple noobcorp alt. not a hard-NPC corp member.
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People are going to remember events where they had to take sides, risk something, and pursue a goal that takes them outside of their daily eve grind. If this sansha arc had continued the way it originally was intended, players shooting hordes of npcs, this discussion wouldn't even be happening. People would be bitching about loot and the general interest level in the community would be virtually non-existant. How this sets a negative precedent for EVE-Online in general, when things like corp theft are legitimate means of subterfuge, is beyond me.
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It's hardly setting a precedent. It's hearkening back to the days of when the events were blobbed by hordes of pirates in battleships and camped incoming gates, with misinformation campaigns being the primary weapon of choice by opposing RP coalitions, whose own strength was so anemic they relied upon the pirates to be their main fighting force.
It is because of this tactic of escalation that made the events near unplayable, by a number of accounts.
The Sansha supporters set up a honeytrap with CH as the executioner of those that responded to it. We brought around. . . 300 pilots. But unfortunately, because Ghost in his infinite wisdom, didn't notify CCP to reinforce the node, and scheduled it before downtime, the node went effectively dead and grid load made the situation impossible for effective combat control.
That is why people are angry. Myself? I will simply kill sansha supporters as often as possible. I will give them no quarter, and if they resort to OOC tactics, then why should I play nice with them in return, OOC?
Once again, the game escalates.
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Can you clarify where you believe OOC tactics were used?
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I'm really not impressed with your attitude, Soter.
You're essentially implying that 'escalating' the conflict by getting proxy forces involved in the event was somehow a conscious tactic to make the game unplayable? Seriously? You honestly think that Ghost, Drake, and everyone on the Sansha side involved in the event planned to crash the server?
That's hilarious.
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I'm more than happy to, Silver. Planning an event before a early downtime, for a patch deployment for a video game, is not In-Character knowledge, nor can I think of any reasonable excuse for it.
It would have made sense, for instance, if there was a massive invasion of some kind, requiring CONCORD to enter into a special session, wherein they give capsuleers additional powers to face the sansha threat by amassing more capital/resources. That would have been perfect. In this case, however, Sansha supporters picked the patch deployment downtime to create, in their own words, "maximum chaos".
An OOC tactic.
That will be met by an OOC response, by some.
My only interest is to play my part in this great space opera, and that involves helping organize the anti-sansha effort, do investigative work, have fun with my friends.
What is really ironic about all of this, is that this great effort, the climax of their ingenuity and aspirations, seems to have totally backfired on them. In a contrived attempt to pin the Maut invasion hoax on me, it seems the ire of our coalition is focused squarely upon them. Such a shame.
Edit:
To Kaleigh/Nola Doyle: the entire effort was, as has been stated by them, publicly, was to create chaos. Anything conducive to those ends was seen as a positive. If they wanted this to be a lag-free engagement between our coalition forces, themselves, and their temporary CH buddies, then they would have picked a proper time, and allowed the node at that location to be reinforced.
In this case, they did not.
That leaves a few options. One, they were either shortsighted enough that they didn't realize the nature of the Coalition response to an attempt to "conquer the system, with Kuvakei present", or two, they felt that the coalition forces shouldn't be given the consideration of fighting on a reinforced node. I give the Sansha folks more credit than option one implies, so, I figure option two is more likely.
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I'm more than happy to, Silver. Planning an event before a early downtime, for a patch deployment for a video game, is not In-Character knowledge, nor can I think of any reasonable excuse for it.
Here you go, are you ready for this? Here's a really hard thought: It didn't even come to mind until the day it was going on that "Oh crap, downtime is early."
I'm serious, this is what happened. When talking about the time he pulled 0100 on Tuesday out of his ass, and this was also one day before they announced when the downtime was.
You're right, it's not IC knowledge, and at the time that Drake pulled the time of the engagement out of his butt it wasn't OOC knowledge either.
That count as a reasonable excuse?
It would have made sense, for instance, if there was a massive invasion of some kind, requiring CONCORD to enter into a special session, wherein they give capsuleers additional powers to face the sansha threat by amassing more capital/resources. That would have been perfect. In this case, however, Sansha supporters picked the patch deployment downtime to create, in their own words, "maximum chaos".
You're mincing ideas to score OOC points, Soter. This is exactly the kind of thing that I started this thread about in the first place.
1. I don't even know what you're talking about in that special session stuff.
2. We did not pick the patch deployment downtime as stated above. Please stop trying to rewrite history.
3. No one said "maximum chaos". The exact wording (because it was me that said it) was that we had set up the event to publicly hang a spy, and then leave you to the ensuing chaos. Not even counting the 300 extra people that PL/NC brought in (that was the real source of the problem that you're claiming was the real issue -- and also that we didn't invite) there would be chaos. We planned to exit the field and leave everyone to it.
An OOC tactic.
Not at all. You are making an effort to alter it to so. Everything we did we did 100% in character. Please try to reciprocate in kind.
That will be met by an OOC response, by some.
It was, and it sucks, we worked IC, we get OOC responses, it's a bitch.
What is really ironic about all of this, is that this great effort, the climax of their ingenuity and aspirations, seems to have totally backfired on them. In a contrived attempt to pin the Maut invasion hoax on me, it seems the ire of our coalition is focused squarely upon them. Such a shame.
I'm sorry, what is this? Ok, you're awfully full of yourself here, Soter. Let me explain something here, and it's amazing how often I have to say this in online games, but...
It isn't about you.
To Kaleigh/Nola Doyle: the entire effort was, as has been stated by them, publicly, was to create chaos. Anything conducive to those ends was seen as a positive. If they wanted this to be a lag-free engagement between our coalition forces, themselves, and their temporary CH buddies, then they would have picked a proper time, and allowed the node at that location to be reinforced.
1. We didn't recognize the downtime until after everything was scheduled, because it wasn't announced yet, and at that point we couldn't go about changing it without blowing the whole thing.
2. We only expected half the people that showed up, so as far as we were aware the node had no purpose in being reinforced. Why do people keep bringing that up even though it's already been made evident that that wasn't intentional? Please stop hammering on points that have been refuted.
3. The vast majority of publicity this got was not done by the Sansha RPers. We told 3 entire people -- one spy, and two contacts to bring in help. All the rest was not done by us. If I recall the live events, synepublic, and so on channels were blowing up all over -- in fact you and yours continually point that out. So where do you think they heard about it from?
We told three, you all told hundreds. 700 showed up. This seems easily understood.
That leaves a few options. One, they were either shortsighted enough that they didn't realize the nature of the Coalition response to an attempt to "conquer the system, with Kuvakei present", or two, they felt that the coalition forces shouldn't be given the consideration of fighting on a reinforced node. I give the Sansha folks more credit than option one implies, so, I figure option two is more likely.
Considering that we've explained a dozen times that we expected about 300-400 people -- which the node handled fine, and didn't expect the additional 300-350 people that suddenly came in out of nowhere when Pandemic Legion crashed the party, please stop hammering on this point, Soter, it just makes you look spiteful.
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:lol:
[ 2010.05.26 01:11:05 ] Lillith Blackheart > Most amusing.
[ 2010.05.26 01:11:07 ] Ghost Hunter > You have failed Mr. Soter! You have failed so magifniciently!
[ 2010.05.26 01:13:45 ] Ghost Hunter > Your Accord gave me everything Nation asked for, and now you have sent all these souls into damnation as well!
[ 2010.05.26 01:23:44 ] Ghost Hunter > Your ignorance blinds you. Your very leader sent you here at my beck and call. Nation appreciates his continued cooperation over the months.
My favorite, Invicta/Cry Havoc Pilot:
[ 2010.05.26 01:13:14 ] GoldSnake > for the node!
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....and that has.... what to do with the discussion?
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I'll break it down bit by bit.
"It isn't about you."
For some silly reason, you made it about me.
" [ 2010.05.26 01:13:14 ] GoldSnake > for the node!"
While you claim it wasn't your intention to, Cry Havoc was more than happy to assist in creating grid-lag to allow for better slaughter conditions.
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Wow. Ok.
This seems to be something you have trouble with.
Look. This:
[ 2010.05.26 01:11:05 ] Lillith Blackheart > Most amusing.
[ 2010.05.26 01:11:07 ] Ghost Hunter > You have failed Mr. Soter! You have failed so magifniciently!
[ 2010.05.26 01:13:45 ] Ghost Hunter > Your Accord gave me everything Nation asked for, and now you have sent all these souls into damnation as well!
[ 2010.05.26 01:23:44 ] Ghost Hunter > Your ignorance blinds you. Your very leader sent you here at my beck and call. Nation appreciates his continued cooperation over the months.
Is in character.
Julianus Soter is not you. Julianus Soter does not exist.
Ghost Hunter, the character, is referring to Julianus Soter, the character, because Julianus Soter, the character, has made himself out to be a target in character.
This has absolutely nothing to do with you.
This is entirely in character motivationally.
At no point did we say anything about "the guy who plays Julianus Soter". At no point did we ever say "Julianus' player did X".
This comment:
It isn't about you.
Is Out of Character.
Do we see and understand the difference?
((Note: I'm really not trying to be a dick here, I'm honestly confused if we do or not))
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Oh, missed this:
" [ 2010.05.26 01:13:14 ] GoldSnake > for the node!"
While you claim it wasn't your intention to, Cry Havoc was more than happy to assist in creating grid-lag to allow for better slaughter conditions.
At the point at which he said that, PL was already on the scene and it was evident the node was about to crap itself. I see that as someone making a joke about a bad situation and nothing more. Could be wrong, but that's my interpretation.
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Perhaps I should have used third person? it's such bad grammar and screws with my syntax.
Sansha supporters attempted to drive a wedge between my character, who is in a leadership position, and the rag-tag group of people fighting the Sansha, many of whom have had little interface with my character beyond some 80-man fleets my character has led. Well, actually, last bit is a lie. I led the fleet, my character acted as a name in a list of names, and was quiet the entire time. . . you see how difficult it is?
Leadership in this kind of thing, Lilith, is inherently IC and OOC. There is a very high standard of OOC competency to be in any position of power or leadership in this game. This is because it is very easy for people to simply walk out the door. We're not bound by employment contracts.
When I lead a group of people they trust me IC and OOC. If they don't trust me IC, they likely don't trust me OOC. And vice versa. Judgment regarding leadership is inherently on the human level, not on a roleplaying level.
Hence the difficulty of separating "me" and "my character" during intense leadership actions, or when discussing my leadership in the context of this broader situation.
Regarding Cry havoc: they all know the consequences of ships and crowding a grid with 400 people. It's metagaming. They relished the chance of having people lock up on grid load. Perhaps you all were ignorant about it. . . but it was your choice not to move the time and allow for reasonable preparations to be made on the server. Your responsibility.
Personally, I'm more than willing to have all of this go away and be forgotten. But it seems that the issue wishes to drag itself out more than you, OOC, bargained for.
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Ok, it's at this point I'm going to disengage from this discussion with you now, because frankly I'm not comfortable with the fuzziness that I'm seeing here, and I generally try to avoid conversations that fall away like that, and I would like to do so before I do something to get me warned.
I will respond to this:
I like how you passed over Cry Havoc. . . but that's not really the point is it?
I realized I passed it over and added it as a secondary post. Right above yours. I opted not to edit it in, because that would have been disingenuous, so instead I created a secondary post. If you would like to continue that discussion I will be happy to, but I will no longer discuss any of the rest of the event with you.
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Last reply before I go to bed (WAY past my bedtime)...
Regarding Cry havoc: they all know the consequences of ships and crowding a grid with 400 people. It's metagaming. They relished the chance of having people lock up on grid load. Perhaps you all were ignorant about it. . . but it was your choice not to move the time and allow for reasonable preparations to be made on the server. Your responsibility.
Er. 400 people on the grid was fine. Again. Still emphasizing that. It wasn't until PL/NC jumped in an additional 300 people after that that the grid started to seize, and I would like to point out one final time that we did not expect them to be there. As stated, we leaked this to three people. Three. Two of those people brought ~20-50 people each. We expected ~200 from you.
Anything above and beyond those numbers? We can not be blamed for, whether or not you wish to.
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heh. it was fine for you because you had already loaded grid. You're not too experienced with this kind of warfare, are you? =p
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heh. it was fine for you because you had already loaded grid. You're not too experienced with this kind of warfare, are you? =p
Shit happens in EVE. Nodes crash, people unexpectedly show up. You just have to roll with it.
This whole false intel thing is nothing new you know, 0.0 warfare does this about weekly.
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Well, you're certainly free to think whatever you want Soter, but right now you're displaying a very petty attitude taking this situation entirely the wrong way. For what reason (ego?), I have no idea.
Clearly, this entire event wasn't a trap, but a clever ruse to crash the server and make the game unplayable! *Shakes fist at Ghost* You won't get away with this!
I can tell you I have no interest in interacting with you one way or another. You've certainly displayed your true colors here.
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Ironically, ghost hunter agrees with me regarding the OOC manipulation. He said he would "look into it" in OOC chan last night.
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Point of order: looking into an allegation does not equate to agreeing with the allegation. It means he will act fairly and check on things.
Unless he said something more than that? I suspect he'll be along to clarify later, but lots of people are watching this thread and observing who acts in what manner.
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Ironically, ghost hunter agrees with me regarding the OOC manipulation. He said he would "look into it" in OOC chan last night.
One should never rush into a debate without their facts straight.
I know where precisely things went and why now. Our leak said something along the lines of "Kuvakei might/will show up in a titan", but the actual numbers of what 'would come' was Screaming Blade's own fantasies. He's the one who made up the 12 chimeras + a titan thing. As far as I can tell from what I know right now, pretty much all your impressions came from his deranged expectations. We supplied the possibility of an appearance to him.
It wasn't until the 10-30 minutes before the operation time did we actually start lying to him directly about Sansha and True Commanders coming to the battlefield. This was done for authenticity reasons, in order to fulfill the real objective of publicly hanging him.
Thusly, in the end, it would seem the deception to create an impression of Kuvakei appearing was amplified by his own expectations. This, coupled with whatever willingness to believe in him you guys had, is what created the end product.
On a partially related note, I didn't realize the operation time our main man picked was an hour before DT until I woke up the next day. At which point I was under the impression it was far too late to reschedule it an hour or two earlier. Typical intelligence thing, change it too much and you risk the integrity of its supposed validity.
Well, you're certainly free to think whatever you want Soter, but right now you're displaying a very petty attitude taking this situation entirely the wrong way. For what reason (ego?), I have no idea.
Clearly, this entire event wasn't a trap, but a clever ruse to crash the server and make the game unplayable! *Shakes fist at Ghost* You won't get away with this!
I can tell you I have no interest in interacting with you one way or another. You've certainly displayed your true colors here.
;_____________________________;
Point of order: looking into an allegation does not equate to agreeing with the allegation. It means he will act fairly and check on things.
Unless he said something more than that? I suspect he'll be along to clarify later, but lots of people are watching this thread and observing who acts in what manner.
My aim is to understand what went where, how and why. I agree it would be unfortunate if any of us acted in a malicious, OOC way to spread the false intelligence. Malicious in my understanding, being if I approached people OOC and told them, "Yeah Kuvakei is going to show up and X, Y, Z". Polluting the Live Events channel, etc...
Maybe I did, I certainly don't recall myself doing that. (Feel free to send me chatlogs) My awareness as I said above, only stretches to what lies we fed Screaming Blade.
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What's that line about assuming incompetence instead of malice?
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There are any number of levels on which I find this thread amusing.
Ah me.
Cosmo
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Ok, this discussion is getting a bit out of hand.
So i'll retreat, but not without first thanking lillith, Ghost, Casiella, Nataclya for providing your details, i wasn't fully informed on what "The Nation" did.
And agreeing with Kal here, even if this player event generated some hard feelings (a bit many i would say :lol:), it made a lasting impression on many people, and that is what "events" are all about.
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Am I understanding correctly that some IC misinformation was spread which caused a whole lot of people to jump (apparently unscouted) into a Cry Havoc trap in lowsec somewhere, losing a lot of people a lot of ships, and a few of those people are really, really mad OOC about it?
'Cause that's how it looks from the outside...
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Don't forget the part where some extra folks come in for the pew and then fingers start getting pointed for the lag and node crash.
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Am I understanding correctly that some IC misinformation was spread which caused a whole lot of people to jump (apparently unscouted) into a Cry Havoc trap in lowsec somewhere, losing a lot of people a lot of ships, and a few of those people are really, really mad OOC about it?
'Cause that's how it looks from the outside...
That is it exactly, yes.
Also, Cosmo: I know, right?
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[mod]Post deleted for trolling and flame-baiting [/mod]
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Frankly, with all the scams, ganking, griefing, thefts and so that go on in eve that has nothing to do with ic/rp the neophyts should HTFU also then. Its Eve. Its like all the people complaining from day one that some of the events happen in lowsec and that it is not fair since they "can" not participate in those ones.
Or for that matter even some people with low secstatus that complains about not more of the events happening in lowsec.... :roll:
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I would just like to point out, which I think any individual should be able to understand on their own....
...that very likely I know why I did something or what motivated me to do something more than anyone else would.
Just saying.
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[mod]Thread locked: it seems that the people who can discuss this topic constructively have had their say[/mod]