Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => The Speakeasy: OOG/Off-topic Discussion => Topic started by: PracticalTechnicality on 14 Apr 2014, 09:28
-
http://www.ccpgames.com/en/public-relations/press-releases/article/77171/ccp-games-halts-development-of-world-of-darkness-mmo/
The article says it all really. I am concerned by their sudden (if not unexpected) dropping of this title, and more so by the fact they sit on the IP. However, more focus (though no clue as to how much) on EVE is a good thing if they can bring DUST back on track and breathe new life into the space-taking game of EVE (which has become tired and old, even for the entities that do it).
Only time will tell, I guess.
CREDIT: Morwen for linking me the story in a very timely manner and breaking the news but not my WoD loving heart. Secondary credit to CCP for the news, and for breaking my WoD loving heart.
-
Does anyone know how much money they lost on Dust?
One might hope they are forced to sell the IP at least and another studio can give it a proper go?
-
I'm not surprised. Anyone ever wondered if CCP is a one-trick-pony?
-
I'm not surprised by this news, nor am I saddened to see the game no longer being worked on. What I am sad about, are those employees that suddenly lost their jobs. :(
-
Found it.
"It may be sensible, given that the company lost $21.3 million last year."
SMH.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/04/14/final-death-world-of-darkness-mmo-cancelled/#more-201431
-
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/22td7a/storm_on_the_horizon_wod_appears_to_be_cancelled/
Saw this the other day, it is relevant.
Kind of a bit :S at how CCP appear to have managed things. PR dropped the ball, sort of thing. :S
-
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/22td7a/storm_on_the_horizon_wod_appears_to_be_cancelled/
Yeah, saw this last night. Fucking LOL at Falcon going on there to say "This is just unconfirmed rumor, nothing to see here" and then having CCP confirm it the next day. I remember when he at least had a reputation for integrity, if not integrity itself.
-
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/22td7a/storm_on_the_horizon_wod_appears_to_be_cancelled/
Yeah, saw this last night. Fucking LOL at Falcon going on there to say "This is just unconfirmed rumor, nothing to see here" and then having CCP confirm it the next day. I remember when he at least had a reputation for integrity, if not integrity itself.
Well. We don't know what the exact score was, and likely never will.
But I can see it as being quite likely, that someone at upper management told lower employees to deny the rumour and say it had no basis in fact, and Falcon drew the short straw.
Sucks to be in that position.
-
I... can't say I'm surprised. From my (entirely out-of-industry) viewpoint, I always considered Incarna to be a "test run" for CCP's WoD - if not in the technology and engine itself, then in the ability for CCP to again develop an entirely new engine and construct a game environment around it. Instead we got the PR debacle that the Incarna rollout was, a fall from which it doesn't feel like CCP has ever entirely recovered.
From that point forwards I never really felt like WoD had a chance. There was always going to be a higher priority, a greater need - frankly, I'm surprised that CCP didn't start selling licenses for development of products in the WoD IP years ago and even more surprised they've opted not to now.
-
Yeah, I'm with Esna here, not surprised in the least. I'm kind of surprised it didn't happen years ago.
-
In my specific area (storyline, content, live events) there was tremendous division over many things and absurd amounts of internal politics that one had to navigate through, all of which would get in the way of work being delivered.
that was one of dropbear's comments in the reddit thread I linked earlier.
Whitewolf's expertise in storyline and content writing was supposed to have been one of the reasons why CCP purchased whitewolf.
So it looks like, not only is there no World of Darkness mmo, but also that CCP have squandered everything they ever got from White Wolf.
So, what was any of it all for ?
-
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/22td7a/storm_on_the_horizon_wod_appears_to_be_cancelled/
Yeah, saw this last night. Fucking LOL at Falcon going on there to say "This is just unconfirmed rumor, nothing to see here" and then having CCP confirm it the next day. I remember when he at least had a reputation for integrity, if not integrity itself.
Well, certain people in CCP are, and continue to be, the best writers of Fiction in the industry. It is a shame that the rest of them aren't on the storyline team.
-
I would chalk the Falcon comment to right hand not knowing what left hand is doing rather than malice.
On another note, I think the White Wolf purchase marked a distinct *downturn* in the quality of EVE's story. The teams didn't seem to mesh well at all.
-
The gaming industry layoff is something that always hovers over you, but no matter how prepared you are, that 5-minute meeting sucks hard. Wishing the Atlanta team a quick landing on other pastures.
Hopefully, EVE will benefit from this debacle somehow, whether it's an appropriation of avatar assets, improved station environments, or what have you.
-
http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/22td7a/storm_on_the_horizon_wod_appears_to_be_cancelled/
Yeah, saw this last night. Fucking LOL at Falcon going on there to say "This is just unconfirmed rumor, nothing to see here" and then having CCP confirm it the next day. I remember when he at least had a reputation for integrity, if not integrity itself.
Well, certain people in CCP are, and continue to be, the best writers of Fiction in the industry.
They are ?
-
I will admit, readily, that assertion was complete exaggeration in the name of comedic license.
-
I don't think anybody is surprised at this really. Ever since Incarna I think it was clear that CCP would be at best pushing WoD onto the back burner. I am sad to see it happen though, not just because of the employees affected but also because I want CCP to succeed. I just guess there was a time a few years ago when CCP got maybe a little too ambitious and spread itself thin by doing DUST 514 and acquiring White Wolf Publishing to develop a whole new intellectual property. They were both a gamble and they definitely shouldn't have made both at the same time.
-
FEARLESS :psyccp: :psyccp: :psyccp:
-
While I can't claim to be a total Vampire the Masq fanboy, I can at least say I have enjoyed the few times I've played it. I think overall it's a good IP and it deserves a good dev team to give it a go in the MMO world. I used to believe that CCP was that dev team. What little tidbits they did let leak gave me hope. The persistent threat of violence much like the EVE universe along with the sense of unknown that I think CCP are good at putting into their games fit well into a Vampire universe. That being said, everything outside of the actual GAME side of these games appears to be one giant pile of wankfail and I don't see that improving anytime soon. I think CCP learned A lesson during the whole mass protest, Incarna bomb but it remains to be seen if they learned the right lesson.
I think my biggest sadface is that outside of CCP, I can't think of a development studio that would do the storyline, gameplay and overall feel of a Vampire game well.
-
Interesting, last year's loss wasn't in fact a cashflow issue, but I seem to recall hearing as a deprecation of assets-- namely, the value associated with a certain unnamed source code. This was presumably the first step for CCP writing off WoD.
Re: EVE. CCP needs to burn through a lot of development time to deal with legacy issues-- POS code, wonky, click-heavy industry interfaces, etc --and increase immersion. Unfortunately, I think we're going to run into an inmates-running-the-asylum problem regarding the social element of EVE. CCP has been hiring from its community for a while, which increases the amount of game knowledge at the company's fingertips, but also institutionalizes player bias. To increase retention rates of EVE players, there needs to be systemic improvement of PvE, and at least a tamping down on rampant griefplay in HS; any efforts to deal with either, though, will surely draw the cries of PvPers for neglecting NS/PvP issues, including those who label themselves 'high sec content creators' for miner ganking, can baiting, etc.
-
To increase retention rates of EVE players, there needs to be systemic improvement of PvE, and at least a tamping down on rampant griefplay in HS; any efforts to deal with either, though, will surely draw the cries of PvPers for neglecting NS/PvP issues, including those who label themselves 'high sec content creators' for miner ganking, can baiting, etc.
I've been under the impression that Burn Jita, Blue Donut, et cetera are things precisely because the sovereignty system is out of step with the realities of nullspace, i.e. mechanics that were built for a playerbase a fraction as large and with a fraction of the resources. If we 'give the babies their bottle' in the short term by focusing on fixes such as expanding the cluster, increasing force projection costs, and utilizing a non-linear cost model for holding sovereignty, wouldn't that give the highsec boo-hoo'ers much more reason to focus on their affairs back at home?
-
breathe new life into the space-taking game of EVE (which has become tired and old, even for the entities that do it).
I've been under the impression that Burn Jita, Blue Donut, et cetera are things precisely because the sovereignty system is out of step with the realities of nullspace, i.e. mechanics that were built for a playerbase a fraction as large and with a fraction of the resources. If we 'give the babies their bottle' in the short term by focusing on fixes such as expanding the cluster, increasing force projection costs, and utilizing a non-linear cost model for holding sovereignty, wouldn't that give the highsec boo-hoo'ers much more reason to focus on their affairs back at home?
Another option would be to eliminate the sov mechanic entirely, since it is a forced mechanic for placement of flags, starbase maintenance cost reduction, and services that could just as well be based upon the fact it is null-sec (versus additional investment).
Sov becomes a matter of living in the space you want to hold. If you don't live in the system, then be prepared for others to occupy that space.
-
Another option would be to eliminate the sov mechanic entirely, since it is a forced mechanic for placement of flags, starbase maintenance cost reduction, and services that could just as well be based upon the fact it is null-sec (versus additional investment).
Sov becomes a matter of living in the space you want to hold. If you don't live in the system, then be prepared for others to occupy that space.
Now that sounds like some wild west business right there. I wonder how many dyed-in-the-wool sovlords would balk at such a prospect.
-
Another option would be to eliminate the sov mechanic entirely, since it is a forced mechanic for placement of flags, starbase maintenance cost reduction, and services that could just as well be based upon the fact it is null-sec (versus additional investment).
Sov becomes a matter of living in the space you want to hold. If you don't live in the system, then be prepared for others to occupy that space.
Now that sounds like some wild west business right there. I wonder how many dyed-in-the-wool sovlords would balk at such a prospect.
But it sounds awesome and is exactly how territories were held once upon a time. This allows for so much shenanigans. You set borders and have presence there, but that doesn't stop smaller entities from doing the bandit raid thing with their covops because there's nobody else deeper inside. Force the sov leaders to make a choice. Small but fortified and efficient or large but less actual coverage?
(I'm supporting this notion because I too want to be a banditto)
-
Another option would be to eliminate the sov mechanic entirely, since it is a forced mechanic for placement of flags, starbase maintenance cost reduction, and services that could just as well be based upon the fact it is null-sec (versus additional investment).
Sov becomes a matter of living in the space you want to hold. If you don't live in the system, then be prepared for others to occupy that space.
Now that sounds like some wild west business right there. I wonder how many dyed-in-the-wool sovlords would balk at such a prospect.
But it sounds awesome and is exactly how territories were held once upon a time. This allows for so much shenanigans. You set borders and have presence there, but that doesn't stop smaller entities from doing the bandit raid thing with their covops because there's nobody else deeper inside. Force the sov leaders to make a choice. Small but fortified and efficient or large but less actual coverage?
(I'm supporting this notion because I too want to be a banditto)
Quickly heading off topic, but Eve's null issues imo have and always will be related to how easy it is to move things (ships, supplies), instantly from A to B with zero consequences or difficulty.
Here on Earth, when you fought a war you had to make a decision between leaving your troops at home, or going off and attacking something. Supply chains mattered. These are things that were attacked and effected strategy. Far off campaign? Better hope your neighbor doesn't attack. Supply chain ambushed? Good luck feeding the front line.
Being able to do those things instantly and safely in EVE is the sov problem to me.
-
Another option would be to eliminate the sov mechanic entirely, since it is a forced mechanic for placement of flags, starbase maintenance cost reduction, and services that could just as well be based upon the fact it is null-sec (versus additional investment).
Sov becomes a matter of living in the space you want to hold. If you don't live in the system, then be prepared for others to occupy that space.
Now that sounds like some wild west business right there. I wonder how many dyed-in-the-wool sovlords would balk at such a prospect.
But it sounds awesome and is exactly how territories were held once upon a time. This allows for so much shenanigans. You set borders and have presence there, but that doesn't stop smaller entities from doing the bandit raid thing with their covops because there's nobody else deeper inside. Force the sov leaders to make a choice. Small but fortified and efficient or large but less actual coverage?
(I'm supporting this notion because I too want to be a banditto)
Quickly heading off topic, but Eve's null issues imo have and always will be related to how easy it is to move things (ships, supplies), instantly from A to B with zero consequences or difficulty.
Here on Earth, when you fought a war you had to make a decision between leaving your troops at home, or going off and attacking something. Supply chains mattered. These are things that were attacked and effected strategy. Far off campaign? Better hope your neighbor doesn't attack. Supply chain ambushed? Good luck feeding the front line.
Being able to do those things instantly and safely in EVE is the sov problem to me.
Moreover the loss sovereignty doesnt mean you loss your asset. It is something what was always immersion breaking for me. Why should I hold asset/private property in a Station for example, when this station now is not my/ours anymore?
I think CCP has the whole inducement to hold territory wrong. Just a minor example: As it currently is, it is just a tool moderate conflict, or lets say create conflict on a "higher" level. The alliance leader--the local Mittani--doesnt pay the bill/sovereignty, therefore WE have to go to war. There is zero individual/person intensive (besides your own ego/and the average dick size comparison.) that you see it as YOUR conflict. Is your private property endanger? Your wallet? Or even your life? No. But I also know which 0.0 bears sit in the CSM. So I know we never will see a increase in ANARCHY (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchy_%28international_relations%29)-elements, as it means less power for them. Because do you need a alliance-leader to shoot the enemy in the face in the good old wild-west-style? Of course not (I would even say you dont need any structure at all.). Thats why I dont hold my breath, as I dont think we will ever see a move in a more wild-west/anarchy directing back again (and I mean really back to the roots. Which means, no going back to the old tower spamming. ;)).
As for WoD. It is a great IP. I just read through the stuff lately. I can tell it is really great, it has lot of moral grey, the Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcbACK_uiNo6PZhxezepiwb6AmMbSNGet) has also so nice mature/dark mood. So I hope CCP license the IP or sells it. Something which they should had done in the first place. So, I fell sorry for all the people which lost their job, I hope they will land on their feet and they find a new workplace soon.
As for CCP choices. I have to say I would be even harsher. :( I know many people wouldnt like what I have to say but I was always against that sunk costs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_costs) (and personal attachments) should be part of the decision process. What I mean with it? I explain: Imagine a couple which holds a bar. It was always had dream to hold this bar, and yes they made alot of investments*** into the bar. But should those old investments** be part of their decisions? No. They should choose to work in the bar not because of past decisions*, but rather because of the (current) opportunity costs. Which means for example: If both can made more money in a real job, then they should take this job (and let someone else work in the bar or sell the bar). Thats how I also see DUST. Sorry for any fan. :( But if the game doesnt make more profit, as I get when I put the money in the bank; then the plug should be pulled. By all the love, somewhere you have to pull the rip cord. The difference for me in DUST and WoD is just that CCP maybe can make some few bucks still out of the WoD IP. :s
________
*** to be more precisely alot of investments which cant be recovered, even not recovered through selling of the bar.
**and you could also add personal attachments.
*no matter how much money they already have invested.
Edit: Fix a typo.
-
I have an idea to go along with your removal of sov mechanics.
Remove local. All of it. Everywhere.
Trust me, once you're used to it, it makes the game way more interesting.
-
As for WoD. It is a great IP. I just read through the stuff lately. I cant tell it is really great, it has lot of moral grey, the Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcbACK_uiNo6PZhxezepiwb6AmMbSNGet) has also so nice mature/dark mood. So I hope CCP license the IP or sells it.
Yeah, the old WoD still has great potential, though I'm not sure what could be made of licensed works such as video games. The greatness of the Storyteller system was the open-endedness. Maybe stuff like you suggested, similar to Bloodlines, is the better way to go. It would be nice if CCP could recoup a bit of the investment and license the development to someone else, though I wonder if there's a willing party at this point.
-
As for WoD. It is a great IP. I just read through the stuff lately. I cant tell it is really great, it has lot of moral grey, the Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLcbACK_uiNo6PZhxezepiwb6AmMbSNGet) has also so nice mature/dark mood. So I hope CCP license the IP or sells it.
Yeah, the old WoD still has great potential, though I'm not sure what could be made of licensed works such as video games. The greatness of the Storyteller system was the open-endedness. Maybe stuff like you suggested, similar to Bloodlines, is the better way to go. It would be nice if CCP could recoup a bit of the investment and license the development to someone else, though I wonder if there's a willing party at this point.
True. I think this is the problem. I dont think truthfully there is a party which spends money on it (just maybe... just maybe. :( )... But in all reality there isnt another studio which will spend money on either WoD or DUST.
Edit: P.S. I had a typo in the post before. I meant to say: "I can tell it is really great,"
I have an idea to go along with your removal of sov mechanics.
Remove local. All of it. Everywhere.
Trust me, once you're used to it, it makes the game way more interesting.
I second this idea. Everything which tips the scale to more anarchy is welcome by me. Or lets say: Less cost free information (of who is in the system...aka local), is always welcome.
-
So CCP is picking up speed in their fall from the heights.
Oh, and while we get rid of sov. mechanics, could we please get rid of (most) jump drives too?
-
I do not think either the dissolution of sov nor the removal of jump drives will particularly skew the balance of power. Concentrate it? Force it to form more widespread, less regulated coalitions? Certainly. But the one thing CCP cannot nerf is organisational ability, and current groups have it in spades.
A serious shake up of the meta is something even those in power in null are hungry for - after all, all of them started in similar ways, starry eyed hopefuls aiming to take stars for themselves. Removing jump drives and sov will do little but make holding power more painful at all levels, with the current disorganised complainants finding it even harder to get a foothold as the entities large enough take out their frustrations on anyone who dares to try and capitalise on their logistical exposure.
We need some iterative thinking - blue sky end goal with an iterative road map from the here and now. Removal of local is something I support, jump drives could be a lot more situational - maybe with some form of 'jump point' in systems that has to be away from celestial objects (or beyond the orbital path of the outermost) like in some other scifi - forcing people to form up to defend jump points and making intel more than a 'X alliance went shopping and jumped home - welp' feed of pointless text.
Space? Well, I have little to no desire to hold space, but I have a vested interest in seeing certain people continue to do so, so changes there I would like to be clear, concise and communicated MONTHS before their final form is deployed. No stealth patching, no 'features' - this kind of shake up affects everyone. This means ccp doing more than their usual obfuscation to slow down adoption of optimal strategies to game new content - it requires the development of sov content that inherently derives from the intentions of those taking/holding/defending space - a human element that only high penetration intel of the opposition can give a perfect algorithm to (and even then one which is subject to change).
Now this is basically just a requirements analysis - with some very shaky prepositions. But I wholeheartedly oppose the institution of sov removal or any other form of 'ad hoc' null - it will fix nothing, remove a financial pressure from the big boys and they will continue to be the most driven and organised force - with even more reason to persecute high sec thinking 'they are to blame for this'. More carrot, less stick, better design, less dreaming - this should be a CCP mantra at this point.
-
@PracticalTechnicality
Sorry for any typos:
I dont think anybody had talk about removal of sov mechanic. I even dont think this is possible, as the current interest of most people is in that direction. My critique is that CCP fundamentally hadnt understand anarchy and individual motivations.
I do not think either the dissolution of sov nor the removal of jump drives will particularly skew the balance of power. Concentrate it? Force it to form more widespread, less regulated coalitions? Certainly. But the one thing CCP cannot nerf is organisational ability, and current groups have it in spades.
This is one the many problems of "the way of thinking" I see. Which sees again the world in a macro-macro view (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Level_of_analysis) (tongyistic), in other words: Group X vs. Group Y; instate of individuals in a group vs. individuals in another group. I know it sounds weird. Let me explain.
As I said here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5702.msg94019#msg94019): In the latest battles I felt nothing. Zero. I was even irritated when people cheer to loud (as it fucking made my hear bleed :D), when he capital was going down. Even if it makes great PR, for me it was just a hanger clean out (and now, I just ramp up stuff... before I leave most likely forever.). All the time I only thought "why Iam here? And why should I care?". I was almost close to: "What Iam doing with my live?" :P :lol: :P As mention before in this thread as well as here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5702.msg94188#msg94188): I would love if CCP finds a way to make me care about stuff. Like for example: "Group/alliance X vs group/alliance Y", or as you mention "a serious shake up of the meta", but I doubt it. As it doesnt effects me as player or my char, thats the sad thing. And this is the micro-level in which CCP needs to think: Individuals. As for me, as I told; I just need new dead threats, and I need new incentive to care about stuff. :( :( :( :( But as I said in the other topic: IT IS JUST ME. :(
Off topic. Does someone goes to Fanfest? If so can he/she ask the "economist guy" how the total amount of money in circulation has change over time period of a year? Or to make it easier, lets say this (all for the period of a year):
What was the total amount of money/isk in circulation?
What was the average velocity of money/isk?
What was the sum of all traded goods times the price (price level) was, or lets say the real value of all transactions (or real GDP Q. What he likes the best.)?
In other word is this statement true:
M↑↑*V>P↑*Y↑ (over the last year)
A flood↑↑ of isk** on one side and on the other a weaker grow in the price level↑ and real value of all transactions↑ (or real value of final expenditures): Aka inflation. Or even short: Those he thinks there is to much isk in the system?
____
** luckily without any grow in the velocity of money (it is most likely constant).
Edit: Link.
-
Not surprising for WoD. Saw it coming from miles away, like most people.
Too bad, no malkavian with road signs obsessions (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1FbDuRWPho) for me then. :/
While I can't claim to be a total Vampire the Masq fanboy, I can at least say I have enjoyed the few times I've played it. I think overall it's a good IP and it deserves a good dev team to give it a go in the MMO world. I used to believe that CCP was that dev team. What little tidbits they did let leak gave me hope. The persistent threat of violence much like the EVE universe along with the sense of unknown that I think CCP are good at putting into their games fit well into a Vampire universe. That being said, everything outside of the actual GAME side of these games appears to be one giant pile of wankfail and I don't see that improving anytime soon. I think CCP learned A lesson during the whole mass protest, Incarna bomb but it remains to be seen if they learned the right lesson.
I think my biggest sadface is that outside of CCP, I can't think of a development studio that would do the storyline, gameplay and overall feel of a Vampire game well.
Yes, pretty much.
And I believe that they learned wrong.
breathe new life into the space-taking game of EVE (which has become tired and old, even for the entities that do it).
I've been under the impression that Burn Jita, Blue Donut, et cetera are things precisely because the sovereignty system is out of step with the realities of nullspace, i.e. mechanics that were built for a playerbase a fraction as large and with a fraction of the resources. If we 'give the babies their bottle' in the short term by focusing on fixes such as expanding the cluster, increasing force projection costs, and utilizing a non-linear cost model for holding sovereignty, wouldn't that give the highsec boo-hoo'ers much more reason to focus on their affairs back at home?
Another option would be to eliminate the sov mechanic entirely, since it is a forced mechanic for placement of flags, starbase maintenance cost reduction, and services that could just as well be based upon the fact it is null-sec (versus additional investment).
Sov becomes a matter of living in the space you want to hold. If you don't live in the system, then be prepared for others to occupy that space.
Yes, it could be the best way to go. I just guess that they also want to diminish a bit the potential for exploit that was already here before Dominion, with alliances big enough to control half or more of nullsec space. They wanted iirc to allow smaller entitites to get inside the business (and failed terribly at it).
That's the exact issue with FW. They went for too convoluted rules that eventually become so obnoxious that there are exploit holes everywhere. CCP has really well managed to create innovative, complex and deep mechanics, but never really managed to also make them elegant and simple.
I have an idea to go along with your removal of sov mechanics.
Remove local. All of it. Everywhere.
Trust me, once you're used to it, it makes the game way more interesting.
Jade was once in the first CSM a big proponent of it. It has its pros and cons, especially in high sec.
The way communication works in eve could still see a nice rework though, with more interesting mechanics. It could be different depending on the region you are in.
Now this is basically just a requirements analysis - with some very shaky prepositions. But I wholeheartedly oppose the institution of sov removal or any other form of 'ad hoc' null - it will fix nothing, remove a financial pressure from the big boys and they will continue to be the most driven and organised force - with even more reason to persecute high sec thinking 'they are to blame for this'. More carrot, less stick, better design, less dreaming - this should be a CCP mantra at this point.
So uh... let's not go this way because it might antagonize nullsec lobbies and make the community atmosphere even more obnoxious than it already is ? :ugh:
-
So CCP is picking up speed in their fall from the heights.
Oh, and while we get rid of sov. mechanics, could we please get rid of (most) jump drives too?
I say, instead they should shorten the range of jump drives and make it alot more costly to actually activate. Even more fuel needed maybe?
-
Increasing fuel price would only favour rich groups (like nullsec alliances) compared to smaller entities for who isk might still pose a problem (unlike for nullsec alliances).
-
Let's just make everything really cheap.
-
Just drive by and left a link: http://www.ccpgames.com/media/47894/ccp_hf_financial_statements_december_31_2013.pdf
/o/ Moves back into the shadows.
-
Quickly heading off topic, but Eve's null issues imo have and always will be related to how easy it is to move things (ships, supplies), instantly from A to B with zero consequences or difficulty.
Here on Earth, when you fought a war you had to make a decision between leaving your troops at home, or going off and attacking something. Supply chains mattered. These are things that were attacked and effected strategy. Far off campaign? Better hope your neighbor doesn't attack. Supply chain ambushed? Good luck feeding the front line.
Being able to do those things instantly and safely in EVE is the sov problem to me.
There was a monster threadnaught over on FHC about a proposed limit to how far you could move jump-capable ships in a day. The problem ended up being something like this:
- You can't live in Null without access to hisec. There is stuff you need in order to survive that simply isn't available in Null. You gotta be able to make Jita runs.
- If you live in the far reaches of Null, this means doing JF runs that cross half the cluster or more each way.
- Pandemic Legion bases out of Amamake because it's roughly the middle of the cluster, allowing them to move ships anywhere they want in the least amount of time possible.
Result: You're trying to hit a balance where you stop PL from being able to hot-drop the entire cluster without making it impossible to live in the far reaches of Null. This may not actually be possible.
Conclusion: You need to complete the Nullsec resource revamp, making it possible to actually live out there without doing JF runs to Jita, before you nerf the ability for ships to jump across the cluster.
NOTE: That was my conclusion. Other people disagreed and thought that you could stop force projection without making the far reaches of Null unlivable. I found their argument unconvincing.
-
Lyn, I do not appreciate the flippant disregard you showed my initial clarifying statements but will reply to clarify further. Your listed reason is NOT the reason not to do it. The reason NOT to do it is that there is no net gain in any form, with only the listed downside (not a reason in itself, but a part of the equation).
We'd be trading one system with a minority in control for another system with a minority in control, with a vested interest in hugging close to borders as much as possible and ensuring no one gets beyond them.
This is a process of constant analysis and an ever wary eye on the meta. In the listed case, the meta would remain - deny access if you can't 100% exploit it. 100% exploitation is itself denial, but in the moon era we saw satraps set up to hold space but not the things of value in it, on behalf of the borderline monopolies. This would do the same, as force projection would become a matter of numbers 24/7 even more so than now - just via conventional travel.
-
Can we get a magic thread-master to split this baby, topic wise?
The null/sov/game issues can also be boiled down to "consequences." or 'lack' of consequences for current game mechanics.
Right now, there is no real consequence for hot dropping (in most cases). There's no consequence for taking 100 capital ships from point A, safely and invulnerably moving them to point B, killing something, and then immediately moving safely back to point A. Rinse, wash, repeat, anywhere in the galaxy. No consequences, extremely little risk.
This is a broken game mechanic.
The proliferation of capital and supercapitals has also tilted the null gameplay probably irreversibly at this point. If you remember the RTS game genre - they make it a point that nearly every 'unit' in the game has a purpose, rock -paper-scissors style. These big capital fights have nearly nothing for smaller ships to do. CCP should introduce gameplay elements for the smaller subcap pilots to participate in. What that is, I don't know? Ship sub-systems, capturing mechanics, starbase mechanics, I don't know. What you want is the ballet of a huge fleet battle, not 500 beached whales with everyone else not contributing anything except for bubbles. Should a frigate be able to torpedo and destroy a giant ship like the death star? Probably not. But fleets of subcaps should be able to help pick off turrets or jump drives or something, I don't know.
In fictional naval battles (of the space variety), usually there's more of a 'dance' involved when two fleets are fighting. There's positioning, feints, exploiting weak points in their lines, etc. Eve capital combat gets more into the 'ok everyone wait.... doomsday' ok everyone waiiiiit...... doomsday"
I would love it if 'formations' gave you tactical bonuses or some other important thing that you had to try and maintain. Keeping your fleet organized should matter somehow *shrug*
-
Just drive by and left a link: http://www.ccpgames.com/media/47894/ccp_hf_financial_statements_december_31_2013.pdf
/o/ Moves back into the shadows.
Huh, so game and related sales are up, but that 2013 R&D expense really nuked the revenue last year. That couldn't all be WoD, but it's understandable why they'd want to cut it off I guess.
Then again I'm no expert at reading financials.
-
Just drive by and left a link: http://www.ccpgames.com/media/47894/ccp_hf_financial_statements_december_31_2013.pdf
/o/ Moves back into the shadows.
Huh, so game and related sales are up, but that 2013 R&D expense really nuked the revenue last year. That couldn't all be WoD, but it's understandable why they'd want to cut it off I guess.
Then again I'm no expert at reading financials.
Plot Twist: They donated the entire R&D Budget to Star Citizen kickstarter :bear:
-
Just drive by and left a link: http://www.ccpgames.com/media/47894/ccp_hf_financial_statements_december_31_2013.pdf
/o/ Moves back into the shadows.
Huh, so game and related sales are up, but that 2013 R&D expense really nuked the revenue last year. That couldn't all be WoD, but it's understandable why they'd want to cut it off I guess.
Then again I'm no expert at reading financials.
Plot Twist: They donated the entire R&D Budget to Star Citizen kickstarter :bear:
Sadly I havent much time. :( Even if the assets for WoD before were to high: [irony] Hilmar can still do his job for two more years. As the company is still worth 48 mio.[/irony]
Facts I didint know:
-Hilmar is also the fourth largest shareholder. :o
-They made 4.7mio 2012. :o
-As Dessau says: R&D 56mio 2013. The thing is, that the operating profit/lost would be even almost the same 2013 if we would take the 2012 research and development expenses (16mio). Marketing would eat up 2mio more, but other costs are lower.
-Cash and cash equivalents are going down for 7mio to 14mio.
Edit: Something I forgot to mention before. I think CCP should had aimed lower on the whole WoD thing. Like bring out first a cheap single player RPG, then take the profit and built another one. And again and again, then make a MMO. It would also help to see how much the IP is still in peoples mind. And that is whats counting almost the most, as both WoD and EVE are niche-games (for a small target audience. Which you have to find. And those early steps would help to collect those peoples.). EVE wasnt built in one day too. Second, the same counts for me for Valkyre. Moreover, that it unlike the others, it is even more niche, as there are currently just a hand full private OR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oculus_Rift) owners. To niche your self in the corner, would be here less of a problem if you aim low. I hope those OR-players (moreover their money) will come 2015.... Which I doubt.
Edit2: With little more time in hand: They had to write in some past cost which now will not be capitalized in the future, those are listed as R&D cost. Cant think that all of it is WoD, maybe some Carbon or Dust stuff?
-
Lyn, I do not appreciate the flippant disregard you showed my initial clarifying statements but will reply to clarify further. Your listed reason is NOT the reason not to do it. The reason NOT to do it is that there is no net gain in any form, with only the listed downside (not a reason in itself, but a part of the equation).
We'd be trading one system with a minority in control for another system with a minority in control, with a vested interest in hugging close to borders as much as possible and ensuring no one gets beyond them.
This is a process of constant analysis and an ever wary eye on the meta. In the listed case, the meta would remain - deny access if you can't 100% exploit it. 100% exploitation is itself denial, but in the moon era we saw satraps set up to hold space but not the things of value in it, on behalf of the borderline monopolies. This would do the same, as force projection would become a matter of numbers 24/7 even more so than now - just via conventional travel.
Sorry then...
I have difficulties to follow your train of thoughts. :/
-
No worries, I'll try and structure my argument better in a little while; didn't realise it was coming across that way.
-
BEHOLD!
Screenshots and such of what 'might have been'
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/04/30/hemorrhage-world-of-darkness-screens-and-details-leak/#more-204641
-
Based on 'press E to seduce' and assorted MMO staple nonsense they have made an excellent decision to terminate the project.
-
Maybe yes.
-
/me presses E
I have been playing Bloodlines recently again, it is still enjoyable. Seems there is an updated community-made patch now, making it even better.
I wonder though, about how there seems to have been a lack of vision of what there is to do in WoD, just like how there was no vision about what there was to do for Incarna. "There could be new careers in Incarna, like bartender, or hair stylist"... yes, well, there could be, but if that was all that the devs could envisage people doing in Incarna, then that is pretty depressing.
Lack of imagination and vision by the developers, is a worrying thing.
-
I have just tap in to the IP. I have zero experience in any of the WoD games. But lore looked nice (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5702.msg94582#msg94582). I have even learned that you can get killed, if the prince of the city gives you free for hunting (blood hunt). That would so much fun. I love some danger, dead threats and good old Machiavellian power politics. :D But also as mention before I understand why CCP had pull the plug.
Maybe If they get some good writes (I know that is not CCP philosophy. But If you are cornered its open game, and you are free to break your own rules.), they can pull of some single action player RPG before all the assets are totally useless/outdated.
-
Any "standard" vampire in the setting (meaning 13rd generation mostly) can die pretty easily in the setting Publius, not only by other vampires or by the prince itself.
Lack of imagination and vision by the developers, is a worrying thing.
We have a project exactly like that in the company. It has been going for years now, with development put behind, and with the creative department unable to say much more than "we want it to be a fantasy 4X game". I don't think it always is a lack of imagination and vision in general, but a lack of it for a game in particular, definitely. Sometimes you just know that you are trying to hard on something that has been created for the sake of it.
-
I thought I'd posted in this thread, but it appears I'd just thought about posting in it. :s
While I can't claim that I was desperate to see WoD released, I am nonetheless very disappointed that it won't become a reality now. Other than really enjoying VtM:Bloodlines, I had no strong WoD associations, but I thought that this was an important game in the MMO space. The entire genre suffers with its demise.
WoW has won. Essentially every MMO is WoW. To the extent that if you ask someone to describe an MMO, they would most likely describe the key features of WoW. Certainly the big publishers and the investors are only interested in backing a game that might look superficially different, but basically is WoW. You make a character and inhabit a server identical to many other servers and run backwards and forwards over a small area of the gameworld completing largely nonsensical quests for NPCs until you level up enough to move to another area to run backwards and forwards completing the same quests as everyone else. Death will only ever be an inconvenience at most. No one will ever loot your corpse. PvP will only ever be in some special area set aside for the purpose and will always be meaningless. If I sound slightly scathing, it's because I loathe this species of game. Rats in a fucking maze.
Historically, the early MMOs weren't like this. They don't have to be like this now. Eve was influenced by the mechanics of Ultima Online, but neither of these games have influenced subsequent MMOs. The runaway success of WoW has seemingly closed down any interest in this approach to a game. The budgets are so large, that no one wants to take the risk on a moderate success or a niche MMO: they all want the next WoW. They all fail. People will take a look at your expensive game for a few months, but they generally seem to conclude that they preferred WoW and go back to it, or perhaps that they have seen it all before. Then your big shiny game goes free to play and relies on tawdry microtransactions to pay the bills.
WoD was maybe, just maybe going to be the exception. It should have been the next sandbox where player agency was king. A place where your character could die permanently. And someone takes your stuff. Permadeath for fuck's sake! That's properly bold in the 21st Century, where all of us gamers are mollycoddled children with too many toys. Like Eve, what the players did would matter, would have consequences. People would tell stories about it afterwards.
The weird thing is that the success of DayZ illustrates that there is a strong desire to play sandbox PvP games. The continuing relative success of Eve shows that you can build quite respectable company developing a niche sandbox MMO, even if CCP's hubris has seen them overreach. I don't understand why people aren't jumping on the bandwagon. The Elder Scrolls Online, while perhaps not a candidate for the sort of hardcore permadeath-dealing sort of game I'm after, is still a massive missed opportunity in that it is the perfect fit for an open world sandbox. It's utterly incredible that you can make Daggerfall, Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim then think that another boring WoW clone is going do justice to your IP.
So yeah, I still have a slight MMO itch. I know I can't go back to Eve - you can never go back, only forwards - but I still long for the same sort of experience and I've been waiting years for something interesting to come along that cites Eve or UO as an influence overtly or otherwise. WoD looked like it could have been that something that might just scratch that itch. Looks like I'm going to be waiting a lot longer now.
-
Purdy artwork released.
http://kotaku.com/the-art-of-an-mmo-that-was-cancelled-after-nine-years-o-1666442829
-
Purdy artwork released.
http://kotaku.com/the-art-of-an-mmo-that-was-cancelled-after-nine-years-o-1666442829
Why o why did you do that :cry:
yes they are purdy
-
from http://www.erlingingi.com/illustrations.html
http://www.erlingingi.com/illustrations/images/stealth6WIP2.jpg
what is this ? it's not WoD.