Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Character Development => Topic started by: Katrina Oniseki on 23 Nov 2013, 20:36
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TL;DR
I want to make some visible displays of loyalty to the State IC. What can I do?
New OP so people understand what I'm looking for.
I'd like to make some visible 'loyalist' actions that help the Caldari State, without joining Faction Warfare. I would like to do some good for the State from my limited position and playing ability. I can't do PvP even with I-RED, never mind FW even if I could join the militia. Which I can't.
Producing ships and modules for the FW buddies in the RP scene seems like an idea, but unless I have perfect skills and run a POs and the whole nine yards, it's going to be producing at a loss - or it's going to be overpricing the end result. I don't really want to actually just sink ISK at a net loss... unless that's a good idea?
As for events, I wouldn't really know what events to host even if people would attend them. Is talking on a podium really something that is 'loyalist'?
Should I poast moar on the IGS in support of the State? More lip service?
Someone suggested I just fly up and shoot Gallentes in the warzone. I-RED has done that from time to time, even defending Liandri's POS which ended up touching off the famous Battle of Asakai. Such isolated incidents don't get much attention though on the RP front, as it's just seen as I-RED doing PvP. So scheduling some of my alliance to run a fleet up there may not work well.
So what can I do that is all super loyalist and much Caldari, very State, wow, amaze?
[spoiler=Original OP]Okay, I saw recently that Vikarion publicly vouched for Verin Hakatain, an outspoken Liberal, because he had fought in Faction Warfare. That made me wonder, is that what it would take for Katrina to gain some sort of 'honoure'? Because, if so, that is disheartening. I want to do something to put the wind back in my sails again for the Caldari scene, so I'm asking this for myself, and a lot of other people out there who can't or simply don't want to use Faction Warfare as a method of being a Loyalist.
In my particular case, I refuse to drop my corp (RDC) and join FW, and a vast majority of our carefully and painstakingly built alliance (I-RED) do not want to join FW either. John has been a very close and supportive friend of mine for a very long time, and I've worked hard to develop my place in I-RED. I don't want to toss that away for the sake of roleplay. Faction Warfare is not an option for Katrina unless it becomes an option for I-RED.
So, what can I reasonably do to help 'boost my standings' with the FW roleplayers who so frequently ask what have I done for the State?
I have tried to use Live Events, but between them being horribly jumbled messes that are useless or damaging to any character that joins up in them; and the dramatic misunderstandings that resulted from my attempt at Caldari Prime*, I've learned that they aren't an option for 'being Caldari'. They certainly aren't a reliable one, even if they are an option at all.
Industry seems to be a very very tough market to get into. The only way market antics would get noticed is if I was very good at it, or someone who was already a FW fighter decided to start publicly buying my stuff. Or if I just sunk my ISK into producing things at a loss for the sake of RP, which is an option.. though a bitter pill to swallow, and could be taken as buying my way into good graces.
Roleplay events don't seem like they would be a good option for me to host right now, as Katrina has fallen into poor standings with many other Caldari for being I-RED and Liberal and her own self. She's not in a place to be hosting anything.
I'm not sure how to work on this. So, what things can I do as a player to improve my Caldari character's standing with other Caldari? Is there anything that can be done, or ought I just stay the course and be the strange Liberal Caldari?
* - The Caldari Prime event was a huge mess for me. My mail to other roleplayers had a mention about not knowing what this would entail, and then a clarification in the OOC brackets about possibly shooting the Titan, because I wasn't sure if CCP was going to turn it into some evil Heth doomsday machine that was going to kill billions of innocent civilians on Caldari Prime.
She did admit later to Pieter who, for some reason asked her about it IC, that if she had to stop the Titan from destroying the entire planet she would. Unfortunately, it was mistaken as Katrina saying she was going to shoot the Titan. Apparently, it's become so oft repeated that it's just common assumption that this is what she said. I'm willing to live with this, but it shows that I've seriously screwed up Katrina's standing as a Caldari.
[/spoiler]
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Honestly, I think there's an easy way and a hard way to achieve the status in which you're accepted as loyalist (of any kind I think):
First, the easy way: Buddy up with those in the community that are regarded as loyalists. Spend time with them, do stuff with them. You don't like what they do? At least don't voice that opinion, but best get over yourself and join in. Congratulate others on how great they are for doing the stuff they do, regardless of whether you like it or no. Do the ridiculous initiation rites. This usually will get you into an in-group. You can kick downward, but you have to please those that are better established then you are. If you play smart and have someone who's in the upper echelons to keep your butt safe, you can get away with hurting feelings of a few people top of you, maybe. Ofc. that makes you dependant on the backing of said buddy.
Second, the hard way: Build up a community of loyalists yourself. Make clear that you regard yourselves as loyalists, show how you understand being a loyalists, define what it means to be a loyalist. Be a loyalist. If you get enough traction, your movement will get big enough so that others will be unable to ignore it. You have to be willing to confront the established loyalists, though and there will be conflict in the process. And therefore, there's no guarantee that it will be a success. You might also get accused of splitting the loyalist community.
I just recently saw a documentary on DMAX on biker gangs and it is interesting how similar being recognized as 'loyalist' or some such in EVE is to their rather childish games (or at least they were represented as such). It made me realize that I might have had a much easier life in EVE if I didn't try so hard to be recognized as Amarr loyalist on many occasions and that I did some quite stupid things for that, which really diminished the fun in the game for me.
As of now I have a corp of Amarr loyalists that aren't doing any FW or such. (I think I have been mainly lucky that there were enough great Amarr carebears around for that to happen that were willing to join as they looked themselves for that thing. A great thanks to my corpies here, you're amazing and make a great corp!) What I also noticed though is how much more I enjoy being in a corp that is casual about things and does great stuff than working my ass off for any kind of 'loyalist cred'.
And tbh, this realization helped with getting some of such cred in the end, as I came to the point where I stopped to feel like I need to prove that I'm a loyalist, but are simply content to laugh at someone claiming that I'm not and write him off as not important for me.
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Your first option is join FW.
Your second option is continue being I-RED and challenge the others, which is what I've done for a long time.
I'm looking for a middle ground, something else I can do. Something to throw them a bone, do something -they- think is good, rather than constantly challenge them as a 'Liberal'.
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Honestly, I don't think they won't let you get away with something cheap like throwing them a bone. There is no middle ground, that's not how in-groups work. They do work by expressly excluding those in the middle ground. Hey, you can join Stitcher on his crusade against the Amarr on the IGS, that will certainly get you some creds in his book, at least.
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So your advice is join them or fight them? There's no working with the other side?
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You'll at least have to fight them until they are forced to grudgingly accept you as loyalist regardless of their own wishes not to do so, unless you join them on their conditions. Yah. In-groups are based on inclusion of those that are 'in', through exclusion of those that are 'out'.
Once you forced them to accept you, you can work on starting to work with them.
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I've never tried being a loyalist anything with my characters. It just seems to lead to some sort of weird clique consensus thing. They just have their own beliefs, agendas, and plans.
That and I've always hated the term loyalist as it applies to Eve. It's a term that I certainly don't try to use because it just leads to very black and white rp that removes a lot of the complexity and the grey area that makes things fun. It's like, "Oh, you're only a loyalist if you do abc and xyz, and the only legitimacy to it is because all these other people agree."
I'd rather have fun and be an iconoclast than get stuck in that trap.
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Keep in mind, the purpose of this thread is to help me find ideas of what sorts of things I can do that would be a visible IC loyalist move. I'm asking for actual things to do. Actions. Events. Playstyles. Roleplay. I'm not asking for advice on whether or not I will be accepted or what the outcome will be. I'm also not asking for validation or opinions on how Caldari she is.
I'm just looking for ideas on specific things to do. Because I'm kind of bored, and I want to get the loyalist Caldari RP ball rolling again.
EDIT: To that end, I am going to reword my OP completely and put the original OP in a spoiler tag.
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Define a set of agendas to pursue and then pursue them?
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Think about whether you want to:
(a) make displays of loyalty to the State,
(b) show what a good Caldari you are, or
(c) have good responses when others who fight for the Caldari in Faction War challenge you.
Despite Heth's attempts to sell the idea that being a good Caldari means being loyal to the State over all, my impression is that that's largely PR spin to whip up nationalist fervor and undermine the megas. Go read Svetlana's articles about being Caldari, think about what it actually means to Kat, and plan something that fits into Kat's own model of what it means to be Caldari.
Is Kat a Wayist (http://"https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality")? Even a secular/cultural Wayist? Then get out there and get people talking about that, and how it affects their choices and their aspirations.
Use her resources to patronise Caldari cultural arts: sponsor tea blending or tea ceremonies, or find ways to use Mindclash as a metaphor for Caldari-ness.
Start the Caldari equivalent of a Rotary or Lions' club for people in business (not sure of US equivalents: non-aligned business fellowships that network and do voluntary work together).
Pick a business goal and work to achieve it.
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In every past MMO RP experience I've had, acceptance is as much a part of the group as it is by anyone's actions. If they want someone to be a part of things, they'll concoct whatever excuses to make it happen. If not, then the opposite is true. Suppose that's why I don't attach to any particular group, but rather individuals... I get tired of the popularity games in short order.
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Is Kat a Wayist (http://"https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality")? Even a secular/cultural Wayist? Then get out there and get people talking about that, and how it affects their choices and their aspirations.
Use her resources to patronise Caldari cultural arts: sponsor tea blending or tea ceremonies, or find ways to use Mindclash as a metaphor for Caldari-ness.
Start the Caldari equivalent of a Rotary or Lions' club for people in business (not sure of US equivalents: non-aligned business fellowships that network and do voluntary work together).
Awesome ideas. I will definitely look into these.
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I'd suggest you think a bit about how Kat would try to support the State (or her corp, I think that's quite loyalist a thing to do in the State), that you can do.
And why not RP events? I'd suggest, honestly, to do something that includes other factions. it's always good to make a show to them as well that you're of the State, if you want to make that clear. E.g. Nico wouldn't recognize Stitcher as a State loyalist, but a rambling, half-tribal independent capsuleer. He has some cred with the Caldari, but to her it's not because he's such a great and loyal Caldari, but because he still has some ol' buddies there. From Nico's perspective at least Kat or Pieter or Veik are much more proper 'Caldari loyalists' - for whatever that's worth.
In the end, if you are merely getting recognized as doing loyalist stuff by the loyalists themselves, it's imho as Veik said. That's usually why I don't run around and use the loyalist term either. I don't see much point in the "Oh, you're only a loyalist if you do abc and xyz, and the only legitimacy to it is because all these other people agree." as well.
Do an event to better relations with the Amarr, or whomever else, really. Like, ask SFRIM to do an event to train Caldari in cross-cultural competence to make better profits on the Amarrian market. (Some seem to need that (; ) Do a tea party for people interested in Caldari culture. Do a tea party for Caldari. To get the Caldari RP ball rolling, do RP - and why not an event?
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Admittedly I am speaking as an outsider here, but I have not heard any of this business about Katrina saying she was going to shoot the titan. Never in a discussion with any other Caldari has it come up. I'd heard about it OOC, and I sort of naturally presumed it to be under the circumstances you described (i.e., if the titan initiated a countdown-to-firing or something like that).
Second: You seem to be looking for some kind of a middle ground that involves interacting with Caldari FW loyalists*, but not actually joining FW.
So - with that said, let's look at business stuff. What can I-RED provide that they need? I don't know a ton about what I-RED does - like, if you have a big industry wing - but can you build some of the larger hulls they need at a discount price? Or what about the Condors I always hear complained about - could a bulk-purchase discount be applied? Understand that at a certain point, these are things that with discounts factored in you may not be earning much if any ISK on - but would be earning RPcred instead.
At a certain point you may also need to accept that actual, ingame-tradable items are not the way to go; I-RED and where the rest of the Caldari RPers sit (seems to be FacWar) may be to separate mechanically and geographically for you to have really tight connections. Barring this, instead, perhaps some other nontangible IC resource could be exchanged?
*I say FW loyalists because that seems to be who you're referring to. Please correct if wrong.
HYPEREDIT: Okay, reading the reworded OP, I'm increasingly feeling an intangible resource trade of some kind is what you're looking for. Others seem to be coming to the same conclusion.
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Thanks for all the replies! Good stuff here.
I'm gonna get some sleep and think on some ideas and get back to the thread tomorrow. Keep the ideas coming! Will let you all know if I come up with a new RP thingy for Caldari goodness.
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You could try not slagging Patriot bloc loyalists off in public, KatKat?
Seriously. I worked hard to keep Pyre and I-Red blue. Managed to do it for six months - but the truth is that there is a deep divide in the CalRp Community along Liberal/Patriot lines and nobody seems particularly bothered about fixing it.
Now, I'm not sure how to fix the FW/Non-FW grudge. It's not that most people think FW is the ONLY way to show loyalty to the State, it's just that I killed 125 enemies of the State this month and was promoted to Strike Commander. Those things are real, they happened to 125 FDU pilots and the State Protectorate gave me a canon rank that is assessed based on my contribution. Is the Forever War a bit ridiculous? Well, yes it is. But it's the only war in town, where you can unambigiously say you're serving the State!
Come up with some metrics for how I-Red is helping Ishukone! Quote them if anyone gives you shit! Ask Falcon if there's some way to get some IG love from Ishy?
So, I say, you should IGNORE trying to prove you're a nationalistic loyalist! Serve your Corporation first, like a good Caldari. Give preference to your Corp over all the others. Give preference to other Caldari over the Jaijii. You could try being a bit less acidic to people trying to build bridges, maybe? But to be honest, Kat can still be a bit cold and biting and still be a good Caldari, AFAIK.
Now, here's the question. With Heth gone, what IS the State? Short of a general attack on a wide front, who is really thinking in terms of the State anymore? Pyre ought to be thinking about Kalaakiota, shouldn't they? IRED should be thinking about Ishukone, shouldn't they?
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Considering the matter further, a resource trade might be a way of forming a more tangible bridge. It would certainly give the facwar bunch a reason to mind their words a bit more... That said, I'd say stand your ground when it comes to somebody pushing the bad Caldari card. A boatload of killmails does nothing to lend credence to a character who does nothing but deride others for doing their part ICly for the State in another venue. If anything, it's completely anathema to a meritocracy that recognizes everyone's contributions.
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Considering the matter further, a resource trade might be a way of forming a more tangible bridge. It would certainly give the facwar bunch a reason to mind their words a bit more... That said, I'd say stand your ground when it comes to somebody pushing the bad Caldari card. A boatload of killmails does nothing to lend credence to a character who does nothing but deride others for doing their part ICly for the State in another venue. If anything, it's completely anathema to a meritocracy that recognizes everyone's contributions.
The only reason Pyre is in FW was because it was conceived as a Kaalakiota aligned PMC -- what's the point of being a corporate merc if you're not doing merc things like shooting people in the face and getting kills as the metric of your success? That and it was never intended down the track to be, "Good Caldari Loyalists" as much as, "Grimdark Kaalakiota boat violencers." Is implying other Caldari corporate citizens outside the Patriot bloc just aren't good enough, tough enough, and don't have the best interests of the State at heart for not prescribing to Patriot political and economic corporate agendas now anathema?
To me, being part of Kaalakiota is to follow a line of thinking that frankly anyone not Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, or Lai Dai to be held with a degree of contempt because you're the best and they're not. Doesn't matter if they're fellow Caldari or not.
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Tell them to stfu. I-RED and CAIN have been the target for much flak recently, mostly done by ignorant characters that can't even imagine what these entities have done way before FW was in place. Those entities have accomplished million times what most nowadays "loyalists" have accomplished in all their pilot lives in FW (which is, may I remind you, a stupid nonsensical mechanism, IC wise). CAIN have held for the state entire constellations in nullsec. CVA has lived for so many years holding providence. I-RED has done a bit of all this too, either as allies or by itself. Nobody would shit EM for that people just know they are Matari loyalists, and that better not to fuck with them. It would be like asking CVA how the hell they could be Amarr loyalists when they have not even touched FW. That's properly ludicrous, you just have all the argument in your favor here really.
It has always been the case between FW supporters and old RP alliances anyway. It was the same between EM and the TLF, it was the same between CVA and the 24IC when I still was in KotMC, and it was already the same between I-RED and the Caldari Militia either. Most of the time, it was a matter of conflict between NRDS stances of the former alliances against all the rogue pirate elements of the militias, thus creating a lot of "alliance loyalists vs militia of the same side" incidents in space. Especially since at that time alliances could not even enter FW.
As for the Caldari Prime titan, let them talk. Most characters will try anything to make their black and white tainted glasses work everytime and spread lies or whatever to paint people as race traitors... I would say, it's expected now from the Eve RP milieu, the same way the Eve universe expects you to deal sooner or later with OOC betrayal, drama, ruthless and uncouth actions, etc. All of this also exists ICly and it has to be experienced and dealt with eventually.
I have faced the same thing in my time in KotMC against PIE Inc for playing a character different from the mainstream (and still occasionally do, but now I have faced it with success it has just turned into mutual indifference or just some kind of cold war). Somehow I would even say that's maybe not such a bad thing for Kat to have that false reputation, where all her friends probably know better. Can be interesting ICly to play with. I know I have a lot of fun at times to play the same thing myself. Sometimes you face successes, sometimes you meet public humiliation...
Also, as Nico pointed out, you can also start your own loyalist wing. If it succeeds like KotMC did for us, you will be able to rival everything. At least, at its golden age, KotMC rivaled PIE Inc and was the main Amarrian RP vector above everyone else that was basically able to tell even the older corps to stfu considering its achievements and popularity. Granted, it was a FW corp doing stuff in FW... But it was a liberal oriented corp, and those usually have the big advantage to draw a lot of friends, even in foreign factions or independent characters. It gives a lot more support than usually expected.
So your advice is join them or fight them? There's no working with the other side?
It's tricky but you can. Question their authority on the matter. Who the hell are they ? Independant capsuleers ? Not even military capsuleers ? What a joke of loyalists, really.
Of course, all i'm offering is conflict, since it's the only thing I have done in the same case in all my eve career... The trick is just to show that your side is not a fickle one, with solid backings and arguments behind, and that it has to be reckoned as such, and serves the same interests, just in a different way.
I have unfortunately no precise idea of events to do. But you can still organize a lot of parties axed around IC caldari fluff, like duty ceremonies (so say we all!), like Malkalen you already do, megacorp meetings or press conferences with foreigners, whatever. Attract people to your own caldariness and spread that caldariness everywhere. I can guarantee you that if that gets active enough, people will have to reckon your character as a pillar of Caldari fluff. You already do that with Malkalen, or your own background corp for your character. Include people in these, or in new ones. See the PIE ball ? It's all about prestige. Create your own prestige.
Even better, start to show your character at most important events. Represent Caldari instead of others. Steal them the occasion to do so every time. Kat should show herself more. Orange is trying to organize something on the Caldari mindset on another thread here. Go there and make an impression. Stomp her feet on the faces of her enemies in the process. Reap the profit.
You don't have to do lip service to the patriot bloc if your own bloc is influential enough. Your recent attacks on the patriots on the IGS were awesome. That's what I have been expecting to see again after FW, which is sub factional inner conflict. Politics. Fuck the unity.
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For what it's worth, I consider Kat to be a pretty hardcore loyalist. :cube:
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You could try not slagging Patriot bloc loyalists off in public, KatKat?
This isn't a fair suggestion or request to make when the visible Patriot bloc loyalists consist mostly of Vikarion, a broken record turnstile (Diana), and a corp that, save you, rarely posts anything that isn't thinly-veiled troll/satire posts specifically designed and intended to incite that reaction.
Come up with some metrics for how I-Red is helping Ishukone! Quote them if anyone gives you shit! Ask Falcon if there's some way to get some IG love from Ishy?
I'll be over here in line with the other "never gonna happen" requests, like fixing the Sansha storyline, repairing the Malkalen or Yulai stations, etc.
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You could try not slagging Patriot bloc loyalists off in public, KatKat?
That wasn't aimed at "Loyalists". It was aimed at people, regardless of affiliation, who couldn't stop snipe-trolling those who attended the event. It also carried an additive that said Pyre should be above that sort of behavior. Well, Katrina was wrong on that last part. They aren't.
I think you may be trying to say avoid speaking out against Patriots in public, and you'll note that for the most part Katrina does avoid making anti-Patriot posts as part of a previously arranged agreement that was roleplayed out in private between you and Veik and Kat. This was a fairly isolated incident as far as I know. Apparently, it was one incident too far.
Seriously. I worked hard to keep Pyre and I-Red blue. Managed to do it for six months - but the truth is that there is a deep divide in the CalRp Community along Liberal/Patriot lines and nobody seems particularly bothered about fixing it.
I know you did, hon. I keep telling you I know you did, and I keep praising you for the effort. I used to do that too when I first joined I-RED. I even tried to get blue standings with Vikarion, and for a while I did too. We were even there over his starbase during what would eventually turn into the infamous Battle of Asakai. So believe me, I know your frustration that it doesn't work.
Come up with some metrics for how I-Red is helping Ishukone! Quote them if anyone gives you shit!
That's been tried, to the frequent reaction of, "Oh yeah? Prove it with ingame means!" or simply being dismissed as nullsec antics. We make billions in profit every month just from the moons alone, not including other means. Supposedly it goes to Ishukone. Truthfully it goes to our SRP programs. In either case, it's giving out free intel to talk about exact numbers.
Everything else is fighting piracy or text-RP that isn't reflected ingame.
Also, the few times we do shoot Gallente for you guys, it's rarely noticed if ever except by the Gallente. DnD used to threaten us on a daily basis to stop helping CalMil, back when they were in Gallente. They'd drop our towers in retaliation for it, they'd put spies in our corp, they'd do the whole number to try and keep us away from the warzone because we kept flying up there to fuck with them. Perhaps we should have been more vocal to the Caldari side about how much we were helping without asking you.
Oh, and we're apparently fighting Duty. now. I'm not sure if Andreus wants to use that IC or not, but it's an OOC fight down in Syndicate for sure. It could be spun to be a fight between Ishukone and Federation influence over Syndicate?
Ask Falcon if there's some way to get some IG love from Ishy?
I'm not even going to bother asking Falcon for a glance in our direction.
So, I say, you should IGNORE trying to prove you're a nationalistic loyalist! Serve your Corporation first, like a good Caldari. Give preference to your Corp over all the others. Give preference to other Caldari over the Jaijii. You could try being a bit less acidic to people trying to build bridges, maybe? But to be honest, Kat can still be a bit cold and biting and still be a good Caldari, AFAIK.
I do serve I-RED first, else I'd be in FW as I said in the original OP. I do give preference to my corp above others, else Kat wouldn't be spending evenings at the office instead of in bed with her wife. The Caldari over Jaijii thing I can and will work on though. Just need to hang around Caldari more often.
Also, look, Pieter. No homo, but being acidic with you or PieterT is not what I'd do if given the option. *eyebrow waggle* It was just an RP gone negative. It wasn't an intended attack on you or Pyre the way it ended up being.
Now, here's the question. With Heth gone, what IS the State? Short of a general attack on a wide front, who is really thinking in terms of the State anymore? Pyre ought to be thinking about Kalaakiota, shouldn't they? IRED should be thinking about Ishukone, shouldn't they?
Again, that's always been what we do. We've always given the finger to FW in favor of serving Ishuklone direcetly. Nothing new there. What is the State though? Like others said in this thread, I'm not sure. It seems like the State is holding its breath.
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Tell them to stfu. I-RED and CAIN have been the target for much flak recently, mostly done by ignorant characters that can't even imagine what these entities have done way before FW was in place. Those entities have accomplished million times what most nowadays "loyalists" have accomplished in all their pilot lives in FW (which is, may I remind you, a stupid nonsensical mechanism, IC wise). CAIN have held for the state entire constellations in nullsec. CVA has lived for so many years holding providence. I-RED has done a bit of all this too, either as allies or by itself. Nobody would shit EM for that people just know they are Matari loyalists, and that better not to fuck with them. It would be like asking CVA how the hell they could be Amarr loyalists when they have not even touched FW. That's properly ludicrous, you just have all the argument in your favor here really.
Well I owe you a pres butan for that post. But, yeah. That was my thought. Also, as much as can be 'held', I-RED holds a couple constellations in NPC null. So to speak. Sortof. Though Andreus' group is giving it some good contest!
It has always been the case between FW supporters and old RP alliances anyway. It was the same between EM and the TLF, it was the same between CVA and the 24IC when I still was in KotMC, and it was already the same between I-RED and the Caldari Militia either. Most of the time, it was a matter of conflict between NRDS stances of the former alliances against all the rogue pirate elements of the militias, thus creating a lot of "alliance loyalists vs militia of the same side" incidents in space. Especially since at that time alliances could not even enter FW.
That's how I-RED lost standing with the FW group in the first place, is we were following our standard RoE. What ended up being Caldari FW pirates getting shot became a huge huge huge mess that happened long before my time. Dealing with the militia as a whole on a standings level is an absolute nightmare, because it's so disorganized. Someone will shoot you, that someone gets shot back, they have friends, the friends get mad and retaliate too. Egos flare on BOTH sides, and shit happens. Nothing I can do about that, nor do I want to try.
As for the Caldari Prime titan, let them talk. Most characters will try anything to make their black and white tainted glasses work everytime and spread lies or whatever to paint people as race traitors... I would say, it's expected now from the Eve RP milieu, the same way the Eve universe expects you to deal sooner or later with OOC betrayal, drama, ruthless and uncouth actions, etc. All of this also exists ICly and it has to be experienced and dealt with eventually.
I have faced the same thing in my time in KotMC against PIE Inc for playing a character different from the mainstream (and still occasionally do, but now I have faced it with success it has just turned into mutual indifference or just some kind of cold war). Somehow I would even say that's maybe not such a bad thing for Kat to have that false reputation, where all her friends probably know better. Can be interesting ICly to play with. I know I have a lot of fun at times to play the same thing myself. Sometimes you face successes, sometimes you meet public humiliation...
That's mostly how I am handling it. Accepting it as something people will believe and just carrying the weight of the rumors.
Also, as Nico pointed out, you can also start your own loyalist wing. If it succeeds like KotMC did for us, you will be able to rival everything. At least, at its golden age, KotMC rivaled PIE Inc and was the main Amarrian RP vector above everyone else that was basically able to tell even the older corps to stfu considering its achievements and popularity. Granted, it was a FW corp doing stuff in FW... But it was a liberal oriented corp, and those usually have the big advantage to draw a lot of friends, even in foreign factions or independent characters. It gives a lot more support than usually expected.
I can't without leaving I-RED, unless you meant an informal group which I may decide to do. Perhaps a militant Wayist group or something. Militant monks.
It's tricky but you can. Question their authority on the matter. Who the hell are they ? Independant capsuleers ? Not even military capsuleers ? What a joke of loyalists, really.
That argument goes both ways, as Katrina is also an independent capsuleer. Not a good cover to shoot from, glass houses and all.
I have unfortunately no precise idea of events to do. But you can still organize a lot of parties axed around IC caldari fluff, like duty ceremonies (so say we all!), like Malkalen you already do, megacorp meetings or press conferences with foreigners, whatever. Attract people to your own caldariness and spread that caldariness everywhere. I can guarantee you that if that gets active enough, people will have to reckon your character as a pillar of Caldari fluff. You already do that with Malkalen, or your own background corp for your character. Include people in these, or in new ones. See the PIE ball ? It's all about prestige. Create your own prestige.
Even better, start to show your character at most important events. Represent Caldari instead of others. Steal them the occasion to do so every time. Kat should show herself more. Orange is trying to organize something on the Caldari mindset on another thread here. Go there and make an impression. Stomp her feet on the faces of her enemies in the process. Reap the profit.
Player events sound like a great idea, but I'm not sure if -I- want to be the host for anything big. That's like doing level fours with negative standings. I'll think about it.
You don't have to do lip service to the patriot bloc if your own bloc is influential enough. Your recent attacks on the patriots on the IGS were awesome. That's what I have been expecting to see again after FW, which is sub factional inner conflict. Politics. Fuck the unity.
Well at least somebody enjoyed that nuclear bomb of a thread.
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It's tricky but you can. Question their authority on the matter. Who the hell are they ? Independant capsuleers ? Not even military capsuleers ? What a joke of loyalists, really.
That argument goes both ways, as Katrina is also an independent capsuleer. Not a good cover to shoot from, glass houses and all.
But Katrina is not pointing fingers and telling who is loyalist and who is not, is she ? The only hypocrites are them.
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It's tricky but you can. Question their authority on the matter. Who the hell are they ? Independant capsuleers ? Not even military capsuleers ? What a joke of loyalists, really.
That argument goes both ways, as Katrina is also an independent capsuleer. Not a good cover to shoot from, glass houses and all.
But Katrina is not pointing fingers and telling who is loyalist and who is not, is she ? The only hypocrites are them.
She has recently called out various actions by other Caldari as being shameful, so... it could be twisted.
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First realize that the Stitcher spent a year and a half in Re-awakened Technologies, a corporation that is definitely not aligned with State interest. To those who lack knowledge of the 6+ year old history of the character, they may not see him as a Caldari loyalist.
For the Patriot bloc, neither the liberal nor practical bloc will ever be Caldari-enough. Add to this the not-so-backroom deals that Ishukone was pursuing alongside the Federation and Ishukone seems to be in it for just Ishukone and not the Caldari as a whole to the Patriots.
Oh, and we're apparently fighting Duty. now. I'm not sure if Andreus wants to use that IC or not, but it's an OOC fight down in Syndicate for sure. It should be spun to be a fight between Ishukone and Federation influence over Syndicate?
Edited could to should. Increased Ishukone influence is increased State influence. I-RED bills itself as a partner with Ishukone, play up your actions as such.
Now, here's the question. With Heth gone, what IS the State? Short of a general attack on a wide front, who is really thinking in terms of the State anymore? Pyre ought to be thinking about Kalaakiota, shouldn't they? IRED should be thinking about Ishukone, shouldn't they?
Again, that's always been what we do. We've always given the finger to FW in favor of serving Ishuklone direcetly. Nothing new there. What is the State though? Like others said in this thread, I'm not sure. It seems like the State is holding its breath.
The State is what it has always been. ;) Eight ethnic mega-corporations, which sought independence from the Luminaire culture that spawned them. Thus they turned to their shared ethnic past to build a sense of unity during the war for independence and a way to create some kind of cohesion after the war. But that is the crux of a future IC debate. 8)
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Please twist those actions by those fucked up hypocrites. I'll be looking forward to see that.
In spirit with the board you'll get some honest feedback from me, though:
*Patpat.* You're doing fine.
edit:
Also Lyn, you're doing very well with analysing the situation. =)
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Of course I forgot the disclaimer, not sure if that was really clear at first glance. I exposed it the best I could but in a very subjective way, putting myself in Kat shoes at times...
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*Patpat* You're doing fine.
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It's tricky but you can. Question their authority on the matter. Who the hell are they ? Independant capsuleers ? Not even military capsuleers ? What a joke of loyalists, really.
That argument goes both ways, as Katrina is also an independent capsuleer. Not a good cover to shoot from, glass houses and all.
But Katrina is not pointing fingers and telling who is loyalist and who is not, is she ? The only hypocrites are them.
She has recently called out various actions by other Caldari as being shameful, so... it could be twisted.
Please twist those actions by those fucked up hypocrites. I'll be looking forward to see that.
Nooo. I meant that the big fight recently between Kat and Pyre could be 'twisted' (read: perceived) to sound like Kat was attacking Patriots because they are Patriots. She was just attacking something she saw as shameful. It had nothing to do with them being Patriots.
Also, I don't think I am calling anybody 'fucked up hypocrites'. :P
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It's my job to use swearwords, because I'm almost out of all fucks I'm capable of giving this month. Additionally, the amount of twisting going on in this thread is staggering already so you may just go on. :p
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If you want to make some visible displays of loyalty, then pretty much you must do just that - "visible display".
So, my advice: advertise Kat's loyalty more, from IGS threads to private rp chat rooms, be more vocal on what you are doing and how it actually "for the State".
Treat "Katrina the Loyalist" more like a product you want to sell. (sorry if this sounds a little bit dirty =P)
(btw: Can we transfer isk to CCP actors? 'Cause if we do, you can make some kind of a charity event or something in that manner, then transfer gathered assets to one of the CCP caldari actors, while spinning it off on IGS.)
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(btw: Can we transfer isk to CCP actors? 'Cause if we do, you can make some kind of a charity event or something in that manner, then transfer gathered assets to one of the CCP caldari actors, while spinning it off on IGS.)
CCP actors may as well be considered a non option at all. They will not ever acknowledge a player now. They're hiding because of all the drama, and Falcon has been growing ever more withdrawn.
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It's my job to use swearwords, because I'm almost out of all fucks I'm capable of giving this month. Additionally, the amount of twisting going on in this thread is staggering already so you may just go on. :p
Let me put this plainly for you. You and Veikitamo and Vikarion and Stitcher and Pieter and the whole Caldari FW crowd are who this entire thread is being directed at. I'm asking YOU for advice.
Others are free to contribute too, but I sincerely hope you decide to give a fuck, since I'm seeking your opinion.
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Numbers. Especially ingame numbers. Think about how I-Red being out where they are helps Ishukone's bottom line.
Quote billions of isk income.
Quote enemy capsuleers slaughtered.
Say what you're doing for your corporation and provide some verification of that. And when you have, you stand on that platform, don't budge an inch and repeat those things you've done, without necessarily shooting down what the other guys have done - even if they're being cunts to you.
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Let me put this plainly for you. You and Veikitamo and Vikarion and Stitcher and Pieter and the whole Caldari FW crowd are who this entire thread is being directed at. I'm asking YOU for advice.[...]
This is, I think, a more productive direction to take. Absent the material - a pile of ISK or killmails - the political gets highly personal. Or from another angle, it's probably not nearly as useful to try and find some abstract ideal course of action that would give all of Caldari RP no choice but to admire and respect you, as it would be to pick out a few people and make nice-nice (or "caldari-caldari") with them.
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Kat, fohget da hatahzzz #teamlibbyponyswag
In all seriousness, though, you shouldn't let it bother you. I dealt with this stuff just as much as the next I-RED member, and it doesn't bug me because I know the people that matter realize either OOCly/ICly that my actions have impacted Ishukone/the State in some way. For example, RPing as an intelligence officer, I can't really go into details about whether or not I do espionage against the Federation less I destroy any operational security I have. As for organizing events and stuff, sometimes you just really have to #yolo it. Like when I made that post on the IGS about Kor IC hosting an anti-Provist rally in Malkalen. I had no idea what sort of reactions that would engender, but it ended up producing some really neat stuff.
TL;DR: #yolo, #hatersgonnahate, #bitchimfab, #voteJFR
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And your decision to engage with the rest of us in sensible, traditionalist, ways sort of counterpointed your rabble rousing. And the rabble rousing itself, actually, initially caused enormous shock and disgust, but later turned out to be pretty justified as Heth got crazier and crazier.
I actually think Kor helped the Patriot bloc a great deal, because he paved the way for Caldari who were Loyalists, maybe even Nationalists, to prepare for the moment when they had to part ways with the Heth government, since CCP had decided on a 30 day descent into complete Hethler Madness rather than a nuanced civil war, fall.
All of that was WAY more useful than your last post.
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Let me put this plainly for you. You and Veikitamo and Vikarion and Stitcher and Pieter and the whole Caldari FW crowd are who this entire thread is being directed at. I'm asking YOU for advice.
My answer would be: I thought you were a loyalist, same as I-RED.
As far as actions to back that up go - basically everything is game. Results do matter, and the scale should be appropriate to what level you're trying to portray. As important as doing things is letting other people know of that. Now, the problem here is that no one's really interested in reading about every little achievement in a 1000 letter post on the IGS every two days, but I'm sure it'd be possible to find a nice balance between no one noticing and overaggrandizing oneself. Maybe being more straightforward with what you do in/for I-RED might help with your issue? While it's pretty easy to attack Ishukone/I-RED ICly it'd be pretty hard (idiotic) to make a claim that they're not part of the State. ;)
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Let me put this plainly for you. You and Veikitamo and Vikarion and Stitcher and Pieter and the whole Caldari FW crowd are who this entire thread is being directed at. I'm asking YOU for advice.
Others are free to contribute too, but I sincerely hope you decide to give a fuck, since I'm seeking your opinion.
The best advice I can give is that I'm probably going to continue to try and build further conflict and disagreement by playing upon the concept that internally the State and its Megas are driven by deep ideological divides, political alliances, politicking, backstabbing and unbridled competition. The intent is not to try and tell other people they're wrong and I'm right, but rather that I'm trying to build specific agendas and purpose for myself and my bros -- you should try and do the same, because I think it's far more interesting playing out the complexities of adversarial conflict with the Caldari than it is to go forward with some kind of bland hand-holding with each other when it isn't warranted.
Just as I try to think upon what makes Kaalakiota and the Patriots the best, then think upon what makes Ishukone and the Liberals the best. It's like football, you might love the game (Caldari) but in the end you have your team (Megacorp) you support and what makes it fun is the clashes between teams and making fun of filthy foreigners who try to step into that corporate conflict and getting the wall of unity and decrying, "Hey I thought you guys hated each other?!" only to get, "Maybe, but we hate you fucking foreigners even more!" in response.
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As for "soft" RP events tied into Caldari corporatism, why not something that ties into the concept that a great deal of Caldari Megas have some direct association into the military arms industry? A Trade Expo like SOFEX (http://www.sofexjordan.com/): A once a year expo where you can invite people to come up with all their new concepts for... "Security Solutions" and the like. You could even promote people to create their own sort of design/concept corporations for it or whatever.
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There even being a trade expo for Black Rise development in PF! Which was attacked by mysterious agents. *cough* Suvee *cough*
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Suvee are cucking funts!
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There even being a trade expo for Black Rise development in PF! Which was attacked by mysterious agents. *cough* Suvee *cough*
Lies, Caldari Megas would totally, never, ever in a thousand years resort to such underhanded and dubious corporate practices or screwing each other over in public.
It's dishonoboru.
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Kat, clearly the solution is to throw SuVee under the bus more. :twisted:
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You know this has all been making me think.
Not sure about what, exactly.
... what it likely is .. *caffeinates*
Once upon a time people played EVE and there was this pretty simplistic - you fight you, and you fight you, and you are allied with them, now go. If you want. Other wise you do what the hell you want. Go. Blow up ships. And minmatars and gallente were blue with CVA and defended their sapce and projects and didn't give a damn what their Char sheets said, and all was Being Built. "Good", "Bad", whatever.
And the "golden age" of RP was likely all caricature and yelling crap in local like Amarr Victor and who the heck knows what else. And there's a possibility that things can indeed get too complicated that the initial point is missed, and that's likely what happened.
The initial point of EVE is go out there and make a name for yourself - whether that name is "Yeh. This is me. I'm on top of some part of the digital world here",or "I am part of this big thing that is on top of the digital world".
Then there's all this "snuggly carebear RP", which lol, we know it isn't snuggly or carebear, no matter how many personal rules this particular group has in regards to what we 'allow' to be done and not to be done -- they're not any different than any other groups 'cliques' rules, and fit into the general overarching EVE rule of "EVE is EVE and real life is real life and the two shouldn't meet, save in bars, on friendly terms (and if people in bars can't remember the friendly terms part they should give themselves wakeup calls) because in the end it is a game about people shooting spaceships or making spaceships and selling bits of spaceships that you do in between real life. It's about being part of something bigger, RPing it or not, and the RP META which gets lost by some is that they shouldn't divert. Hence you mining in game? You're mining IC. You die in game? you died IC. etc.
For me anyway I play EVE to play EVE. Though RP has held me here longer than my other stints, it could have been anything else - and I can't even say it is just the "RP" that does it, as "RP" is just a group of people with similar interests, yeh. So same as every other MMO. You get to the point where it is the people that hold you somewhere in a game when the game isn't keeping you occupied enough on itself.
So when this convo was happening live and I got pointed out as a "loyalist" that doesn't FW I kinda had to blink and go "whoa". Number one, the Khanid Kingdom has no faction warfare army so I can't possibly be a FW loyalist for Amarr ;), and number two, I can't PvP all day. Also, things I couldn't much say during a basic text flood wall that was going on at that point, Arista was never defined as a LOYALIST in the giant bloody letters of PvP FW or even in giant gold glittery letters of Amarr BASIC roleplay of "hey look I'm Amarr". Her FIRST "loyalist" move was joining the Societas when my nonRP corp went so fucking derp (in my opinion) that I threw my Directors keys and left. At that point I'd already been spending so much time with the intercorporation/ interfactional RP community that I was spending MORE time with "them" (aka you guys) than my own corpmates because I was getting run roughshod over in actual corporate matters in regards to security, diplomacy, etc - all of the things I was supposed to be doing, but were getting done by other people cause lets face it - in the nonRP world of EVE, I was given a director position because I have girl-parts. :P
Anyway.
Also, Caldari is in a weird position. As has been pointed out, Heth is gone now, the State is again the superconglomerate of 8 Megas with a few dozen other smaller-than-megas sprinkled into the mix. So now what? There's a ton of other stuff that will "hold" Caldari together in a deeper RP meaning than "Hurr my character sheet says I'm Caldari", but these are things that the RP worldbuilding people have built.
TBH, to me, from an IC (translated to OOC standpoint) I-RED is this Very VERY Caldari group, but very damned enigmatic to me (well ofc, they live in null). So if questions of their loyalty are coming from anywhere, it is coming from Inside of the "State", and well.. wouldn't that be just what the heck is going to happen if a figurehead gets popped off like the top of a dandylion?
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Oh, and we're apparently fighting Duty. now. I'm not sure if Andreus wants to use that IC or not, but it's an OOC fight down in Syndicate for sure. It could be spun to be a fight between Ishukone and Federation influence over Syndicate?
You should probably do your homework about Duty before making that claim, or even assume it is 'Andy's group'.
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Oh, and we're apparently fighting Duty. now. I'm not sure if Andreus wants to use that IC or not, but it's an OOC fight down in Syndicate for sure. It could be spun to be a fight between Ishukone and Federation influence over Syndicate?
You should probably do your homework about Duty before making that claim, or even assume it is 'Andy's group'.
No, I'm already aware. I got it mixed up with Moira. for some reason, which is the Federation one.
I know Duty. used to be Caldari, hence the whole fight between him and Pyre-Falcon on the IGS over the "Duty" appellation. I don't know if it has a roleplay affiliation at all anymore, since they've joined an otherwise non-aligned alliance.
I never claimed it was 'Andy's group', though. You even quoted me, so I don't know why I have to type it a second time. I said I was not sure if he wants to use the fight IC or not. He's the only roleplayer I know of in that corp and has been very vocal in defense of that corporation on the IGS and here recently.
Thanks for the heads up though.
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Also, as much as can be 'held', I-RED holds a couple constellations in NPC null. So to speak. Sortof. Though Andreus' group is giving it some good contest!
This is why I made the comment about Andy's group, could be I read more into that than was originally intended.
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There have been a number of good suggestions in this thread, but I have to ask: why does it matter?
Your character is loyal to the state. Why are you seeking this sort of acknowledgment from other characters?
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There have been a number of good suggestions in this thread, but I have to ask: why does it matter?
Your character is loyal to the state. Why are you seeking this sort of acknowledgment from other characters?
I'm not.
Keep in mind, the purpose of this thread is to help me find ideas of what sorts of things I can do that would be a visible IC loyalist move. I'm asking for actual things to do. Actions. Events. Playstyles. Roleplay. I'm not asking for advice on whether or not I will be accepted or what the outcome will be. I'm also not asking for validation or opinions on how Caldari she is.
I'm just looking for ideas on specific things to do. Because I'm kind of bored, and I want to get the loyalist Caldari RP ball rolling again.
I just wanted to find some loyalist things to do.
Anyways, the purpose of this thread has been filled. I've got some good ideas that I will put in the works.
Thanks everyone!
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Considering the matter further, a resource trade might be a way of forming a more tangible bridge. It would certainly give the facwar bunch a reason to mind their words a bit more... That said, I'd say stand your ground when it comes to somebody pushing the bad Caldari card. A boatload of killmails does nothing to lend credence to a character who does nothing but deride others for doing their part ICly for the State in another venue. If anything, it's completely anathema to a meritocracy that recognizes everyone's contributions.
The only reason Pyre is in FW was because it was conceived as a Kaalakiota aligned PMC -- what's the point of being a corporate merc if you're not doing merc things like shooting people in the face and getting kills as the metric of your success? That and it was never intended down the track to be, "Good Caldari Loyalists" as much as, "Grimdark Kaalakiota boat violencers." Is implying other Caldari corporate citizens outside the Patriot bloc just aren't good enough, tough enough, and don't have the best interests of the State at heart for not prescribing to Patriot political and economic corporate agendas now anathema?
To me, being part of Kaalakiota is to follow a line of thinking that frankly anyone not Kaalakiota, Wiyrkomi, or Lai Dai to be held with a degree of contempt because you're the best and they're not. Doesn't matter if they're fellow Caldari or not.
Veik... We need to talk sometime. You've asked me for some perspective a couple of times in the past. I think I can cut a clearer picture in real time, face to face, so to speak, and forum tag isn't the best way to commiserate.
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Kat, I don't know how much of an option this really is, and it would require a lot of playing politics outside of RP, but has I-Red ever considered taking space a la CVA? Claiming space, holding it, and saying 'we are claiming this for Ishukone' would be a really solid I think way of establishing loyalty without getting involved in faction warfare.
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Kat, I don't know how much of an option this really is, and it would require a lot of playing politics outside of RP, but has I-Red ever considered taking space a la CVA? Claiming space, holding it, and saying 'we are claiming this for Ishukone' would be a really solid I think way of establishing loyalty without getting involved in faction warfare.
We have considered and actually done it in the past (though we got kicked out), but it's not on the timeline for our goals in the foreseeable future.
Taking space in sov null is not something I-RED is capable of doing independently at this time. Due to the current gameplay and political structure of sov null, it would take an alliance several times our size to do that. We're also not interested in any of the existing coalitions, and we absolutely refuse to rent.
In short, no. We're not going to sov right now. If and/or when we do change our minds, everyone will probably hear about it within the week.
Can you tell I've had to say this a few times before? Damn renter recruiters.
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Kat, I don't know how much of an option this really is, and it would require a lot of playing politics outside of RP, but has I-Red ever considered taking space a la CVA? Claiming space, holding it, and saying 'we are claiming this for Ishukone' would be a really solid I think way of establishing loyalty without getting involved in faction warfare.
This made me chuckle for a variety of reasons. From I-RED being red to Provi (due to alliance politics/loans surrounding I-RED's departure like 4 or 5 years ago) to a debate had by John and I over whether Provi development was as important as Black Rise development (damn you slowly evolving game mechanics) for the State*.
*For some reason I think we have both won this debate, as I sit in I-MGAB attempting to build a locally sourced economy.
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Take care of I-MGAB (and the whole constellation). I care.
This is my serious face.
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Kat, I don't know how much of an option this really is, and it would require a lot of playing politics outside of RP, but has I-Red ever considered taking space a la CVA? Claiming space, holding it, and saying 'we are claiming this for Ishukone' would be a really solid I think way of establishing loyalty without getting involved in faction warfare.
We have considered and actually done it in the past (though we got kicked out), but it's not on the timeline for our goals in the foreseeable future.
Taking space in sov null is not something I-RED is capable of doing independently at this time. Due to the current gameplay and political structure of sov null, it would take an alliance several times our size to do that. We're also not interested in any of the existing coalitions, and we absolutely refuse to rent.
In short, no. We're not going to sov right now. If and/or when we do change our minds, everyone will probably hear about it within the week.
Can you tell I've had to say this a few times before? Damn renter recruiters.
FW now gives all the perks of Sov, sans super cap construction, and is close to Jita making it a trader and manufacturer's (both of which are Ishukone's forte) dream. Also, I if i recall I-RED's initial priamary reason for not joining FW was because you didn't want to work for Heth. CEP runs the Protectorate these days, Ishukone is part of the CEP and has both a direct interest in Intaki and a dire need strengthen it's position within the State. Then there is the fact tat TEST is doing all the work grinding the 'Sov' for you.
I hope I don't come off as snotty here, but the situation seems tailor made for everything John I-RED's rpers ever wanted and gives the non rpers a place to make ISK or PvP. Do you need a giant flashing billboard saying 'go to Black Rise and build a NRDS haven for Caldari traders and merchants' (which again, is Ishukone's theme)?
1) Take a constellation
2) cyno jam it,
3) Enforce NRDS
4) Set up reaction towers with crazy fuel savings from FW bonus.
5) Sell Goo in Jita
6) Take all the POCOS invite in carebears to use them
7) Collect taxes
8) Be lauded as leaders of the Caldari community
9) Sell guns to QCATs and TEST
10) Profit
Pushing for this in I-RED's government would certainly give Kat an IC goal that not many could argue wasn't loyalist.
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FW now gives all the perks of Sov minus super cap construction, and I if i recall I-RED's reason for not joining FW was because you didn't want to work for Heth. CEP runs the Protectorate these days, and Ishukone is part of the CEP and has direct interest in Intaki.
Can you be more detailed and specific on how it gives all the perks of sov?
As for the reasons, Heth was a roleplay reason. It wasn't an OOC reason. I-RED line members by and large aren't looking to join FW, especially not the more recent corps that purposely joined an NPC Nullsec alliance. In the absolute simplest terms, very very very few I-RED members are interested in Faction Warfare, including the directorship.
In fact, speaking strictly gameplay... I'm not even interested in FW. I prefer null over low. I like bombs and bubbles, I dislike gateguns and sec losses. I'm only interested in the RP angle of FW, not the gameplay.
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Can you be more detailed and specific on how it gives all the perks of sov?
What it doesn't give:
Pirate Detection Array (Combat Anoms)
Quantum Flux Generator (WH)
Ore Prospecting Array (Grav anoms)
Survey Netowrk (Hacking anoms)
Jump Bridges
Super Manufacture
What you do get is
Cyno Jammer
Tax reduction
Factory slots
STARBASE FUEL
You don't get JB and Supers in Syndicate anyhow and FW provides ISK making altenatives to the Anom magnets. I heard people are soloing c6 wormholes in the new maruders so I expect an alliance controlling the lvl 5 agents in Black Rise wouldn't even need the FW isk. This is not even figuring in the easy logistics to Jita and a massive recruitment pool in FW.
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You don't get [JB and] Supers in Syndicate
lol.
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You don't get [JB and] Supers in Syndicate
lol.
Titan Bridges are not the same as Jump Bridges which require an I-HUB and Advanced Logistics Network upgrade that cannot be placed in NPC Sov. Likewise the Capital Ship Assembly Array, needed for the production of Supercarriers and Titans, requires an I-HUB and the Supercapital Construction Facilities upgrade thus precluding the manufacture of Super-capitals in the Syndicate region. This of course has no bearing on the use of super capitals.
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I think Kala was trying to get across the fact that many Syndicate groups (oddly excluding I-RED) have or have access to a bridging titan, which is effectively the same as having a JB network with regards to PvP.
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I think Kala was trying to get across the fact that many Syndicate groups (oddly excluding I-RED) have or have access to a bridging titan, which is effectively the same as having a JB network with regards to PvP.
Which also work in Black Rise.
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I think Kala was trying to get across the fact that many Syndicate groups (oddly excluding I-RED) have or have access to a bridging titan, which is effectively the same as having a JB network with regards to PvP.
Which also work in Black Rise.
Well we don't have one, so it doesn't matter to us anyways.
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I prefer null over low. I like bombs and bubbles, I dislike gateguns and sec losses. I'm only interested in the RP angle of FW, not the gameplay.
*Shrugs* You must do what makes you happy, but I would point out that the Urpiken Constellation in Black Rise is one Jump from the Nullsec region of Cloud Ring and two Jumps from Pure Blind while the Serthoulde Constellation is three jumps from Syndicate and one from Pure Blind. I maybe be wrong but believe the belt rats in Black Rise and Placid drop the tags used for security status increase - solving that issue too.
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Dude. They don't want to do FW. Not everyone wants to do FW.
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I prefer null over low. I like bombs and bubbles, I dislike gateguns and sec losses. I'm only interested in the RP angle of FW, not the gameplay.
*Shrugs* You must do what makes you happy, but I would point out that the Urpiken Constellation in Black Rise is one Jump from the Nullsec region of Cloud Ring and two Jumps from Pure Blind while the Serthoulde Constellation is three jumps from Syndicate and one from Pure Blind. I maybe be wrong but believe the belt rats in Black Rise and Placid drop the tags used for security status increase - solving that issue too.
Have you lived in Urpiken before? Do you know who the null-neighbors have been for more than a year? Do you know what hornets will be stirred by trying to 1) take moons, 2) fight the neighbors regularly, etc.
If someone enjoys Syndicate, Urpiken is a very different environment. It is either quiet or CONDI & friends is moving through.
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I think Kala was trying to get across the fact that many Syndicate groups (oddly excluding I-RED) have or have access to a bridging titan, which is effectively the same as having a JB network with regards to PvP.
Pretty much this. Also, as well as bridge titans, a respectable number of the larger groups have Super Carriers as well. Even GROON :lol:
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*Shrugs* You must do what makes you happy,
Dude. They don't want to do FW. Not everyone wants to do FW.
Tiberious, I hope you can see that your post was quite unnecessary since I'd already made that point for you. However having said that; I'm having a polite conversation with a friend of mine, and I have every right to discuss which points and topics I like with him. It offends me that you'd try to dictate what I might discuss, and a history of such offenses on your part is why I do not participate in The Summit. Further, for your edification, The Well being of I-RED is important to me, and I merely offered one option to help advance their goals. You see I am intimately aware of the I-RED's internal culture and what they want, and I know that John at one time had hope of creating a 'Caldari CVA' but is road blocked on every conceivable route to that objective. I'm not part of the 'loyalist must be in FW' crowd, and was a vocal opponent of the FW scene for many years.
However, the FW storyline and mechanics have changed, in a way that makes the 'Caldari CVA' dream viable although not easy, and as a friend it would be remiss of me NOT to point out that a new and extremely powerful tool (that they might not be aware of) has been made available to them. If they don't want to, they don't want to but I'd like to make sure they at least considered all the pros and cons of a change that might not have crossed their minds, and I am well in my rights to do so even if it displeases yourself.
I think Kala was trying to get across the fact that many Syndicate groups (oddly excluding I-RED) have or have
I think Kala was trying to be a condecening troll and I was in the wrong to respond at all.
Have you lived in Urpiken before? Do you know who the null-neighbors have been for more than a year? Do you know what hornets will be stirred by trying to 1) take moons, 2) fight the neighbors regularly, etc.
If someone enjoys Syndicate, Urpiken is a very different environment. It is either quiet or CONDI & friends is moving through.
I have lived in Urpiken, albeit some time ago. I've also lived in I-RED's 98Q pocket which is also a place where people (CONDI included) like to kick over little sandcastles and take all the good moons. I am inclined to believe the 98Q pocket is the rougher neighborhood but willing to admit I could be wrong. From my point of view, I-RED is surving in Syndicate but hardly thriving.
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I think Kala was trying to be a condecening troll and I was in the wrong to respond at all.
I do my best.
As someone who has been a member of I-RED, I can tell you that they seem to be having plenty of fun in Syndicate without having to get involved in the drama fueled bastardry that is FW.
As someone who has been a member of FW more or less consistently for the last 3 years, I can tell you it gets old pretty damn fast. In RP terms it's almost a complete waste of time, and in gameplay terms it's all sorts of broken. At this point it appears to be running entirely off stubbornness and people in frigates. Cloaked frigates. With Stabs. Lots of Stabs.
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I'm having a polite conversation with a friend of mine
So listen, uhh... don't uhh... don't take this the wrong way but...
... I have no idea who you are other than my favorite color.
Aside from that, I will forward these posts To John. He has regularly pitched FW to I-RED from time to time, usually when they complain about being bored during the slower months where activity in Syndicate is low. He's always been shot down when he offers us to take a hiatus in FW... but it's worth knowing how things have changed for next year's pitch.
If I-RED did join FW, it would most likely be one of two ways.
1.) I-RED enlists as an alliance into the State Protectorate, but keeps its F.O.B. in 98Q Syndicate where it is now. Our starbases and infrastructure would continue to operate in Syndicate and be defended. We would only use the militia enrollment to be able to shoot freely at GalMil, without placing our infrastructure in the warzone itself (due to frequent loss of occupancy). We'd continue making money in Syndicate, and keep operating in Syndicate. This is analogous to TEST, who maintain their primary HQ outside the warzone in nullsec.
2.) I-RED enlists AND deploys to the State Protectorate, uprooting all our infrastructure and F.O.B.. We'd effectively be leaving Syndicate completely. We'd establish a new F.O.B. somewhere in Black Rise, and attempt to place 'cash machine' starbases in the area, likely at a significantly less profitable level from where we are now.
Both options represent significant risk, and both introduce our return to lowsec, which historically our members have disliked. Even when we lived in Placid and were offered a choice of lowsec or nullsec roams nightly, we'd scream in unison "NULLSEC!!!!". John would only sometimes listen, because he does not like bubbles. lol
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I'm having a polite conversation with a friend of mine
So listen, uhh... don't uhh... don't take this the wrong way but...
... I have no idea who you are other than my favorite color.
I suppose after that much vodka you wouldn't remember our glorious weekend together. I actually made the account just to lurk old post because posting here is a terrible, terrible terrible idea. But dammit I'm weak!
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Uhh.... Veik? Veik likes vodka. I'm so confused.
Anyways, I edited the above post. Read it!
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It's good to know you finally started making ISK off the Syndicate towers instead of losing it. Do you still have the Intaki towers still and you get 3rd party fuel saving on them because of FW?
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It's good to know you finally started making ISK off the Syndicate towers instead of losing it. Do you still have the Intaki towers still and you get 3rd party fuel saving on them because of FW?
HAMMIE! HAMBONE! HAMSTORM!!! THE HAMMERNATOR!!
Few people knew we were losing money on them, so you must be Hamish then. But yes, turning a tidy profit on our Syndicate chains. We took down our Intaki stuff. People keep gifting us POCOs down there for some reason, but we're trying to get rid of them too.
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I do not know the Hambone you speak off but he sounds like a gentleman of refinement, with excellent breeding and a stout chin. ;) Glad the ISK is flowing.
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nu pls. i dun wun go bak 2 lowsex. i dun liek gategunz n making no iskies. pls.
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Few people knew we were losing money on them, so you must be Hamish then.
This explains many things.
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Few people knew we were losing money on them, so you must be Hamish then.
This explains many things.
Like?
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Few people knew we were losing money on them, so you must be Hamish then.
This explains many things.
Like?
Not the losing of money, but purple being a particular individual with a certain history. It explains the responses.
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nu pls. i dun wun go bak 2 lowsex. i dun liek gategunz n making no iskies. pls.
This would be funnier if it wasn't the exact sort of response the directors gave after showing them a detailed business plan that took eighteen hours to write.
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nu pls. i dun wun go bak 2 lowsex. i dun liek gategunz n making no iskies. pls.
This would be funnier if it wasn't the exact sort of response the directors gave after showing them a detailed business plan that took eighteen hours to write.
Well you know what they say about sales. Listening to 9 out of ten people say no is the price you pay for the 1 who says yes.
That said, sorry. It just wasn't something we were really interested in, having flown lowsec plenty enough and being very happy to have recently left it. You can't really blame the other directors (since you were one too at the time) for being almost completely closed minded about a proposition that would have taken them right back to the area of the game we'd been working well over a year to get out of.
I don't want to get too detailed in a forum post about how we work now, but I'll say that your docs did teach us a lot about industry. So, it certainly wasn't a waste. I hope you don't feel that it was.
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In all seriousness, I loathe the idea of FW both IC and OOC. IC Kor would have no interest in participating in a ceaseless war. OOC I have no interest in participating in a massive dickwaving contest. The resources and mechanics of lowsec are also of very little interest to me. I enjoy living in NPC nullsec very much - much more than I did living in lowsec. You can spend however many hours you'd like coming up with a business plan for living in lowsec, and all you would receive from me are sleepy eyes. These are sentiments most of I-RED also share. NPC null is my home, and there are much better ways to prove one's loyalty to a particular faction than through that disgusting, stupid, aging mechanic that is FW.
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Actually the plan called for more towers in Syndicate and less in low-sec :P And Kat, thanks, that means a lot.
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I don't think I-RED having more towers in Syndicate is a possibility because most of us are all too lazy to keep it running right, and those of us who are competent enough already got their hands full.
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Few people knew we were losing money on them, so you must be Hamish then.
This explains many things.
Like?
Not the losing of money, but purple being a particular individual with a certain history. It explains the responses.
I knew it! 8)
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As someone who has been a member of FW more or less consistently for the last 3 years, I can tell you it gets old pretty damn fast. In RP terms it's almost a complete waste of time, and in gameplay terms it's all sorts of broken. At this point it appears to be running entirely off stubbornness and people in frigates. Cloaked frigates. With Stabs. Lots of Stabs.
One of the reasons I joined Calmil was solely because while it is indeed full of whining lp farmers I get to fight against FDU corp/alliances that have some solid pvp'ers. These days I get a lot of fights and a lot of kills, and really that's the essence of FW for me -- pew pew, fights, kills -- not RP in the sense of building something grand or interactions beyond shooting people in the face and savouring their local butthurt.
In a lot of ways the current RP I do and the alliance I'm in was designed solely to justify participation in FW, so it's probably harder for those RP'ers who don't play solely for the vicarious thrills of being a killmail whore on a daily basis.
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People keep gifting us POCOs down there for some reason, but we're trying to get rid of them too.
I'll take them.
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I guess with FW most people seem to miss the entire point of it. It's, essentially, a huge free war declaration with a side dish of relatively easy money. Either you get your thrills from shooting people inna face or you don't, everything really tedious about it (sans highsec activities) is so optional that it is hardly a bother. The aspect of 'no winning' seems very moot to me, since we actually play a game that can not be won. You can set goals and try to fulfil them, but you'll never reach that 'Game Over, Congratulations!' screen.
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The only thing worse than fighting an unending war is losing an unending war, etc.
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The only thing worse than fighting an unending war is losing an unending war, etc.
Or running out of popcorn in the peanut gallery. Fucking Logibro took most of it with him when he left. :|
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FW has never had a direct relationship with being a loyalist.
Many people who are loyal to many factions have little interest in that particular slice of gameplay that Eve offers.
Just like some of you don't like null sec, or don't like non FW lowsec (crazy people, all of you!), some people dislike every single thing about FW.
In general have fun in your corner, don't hate too much on others in theirs.
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I guess the real discussion here is then, "How can I be an industrialist/non-pvp'er and be recognized as a factional loyalist."
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I guess the real discussion here is then, "How can I be an industrialist/non-pvp'er and be recognized as a factional loyalist."
Essentially yes. While in my case I do PvP, I'm unable to with my current internet. :bash:
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From my - albeit somewhat limited - experience of doing FWing on my non-RP alt, I have to say that I have no clue why so many people like it so much. It seems like a dull, stressful, and unrewarding experience (even when you win) populated almost completely by jerks. But I find Eve PvP kinda horribly designed to begin with, so that's probably why I miss the buzz.
In any case, while I already made this same point in OOC a while back, I'll say it again in a less horribly excecuted fashion here. It seems silly to me that anyone would think you need to fight in the faction war to be a loyalist. Afterall, there's several armed conflicts the country I presently live in is involved in, and I'm certainly not in any capacity. But for someone to accuse me of disloyalty to said country because I'm lazing around working from home instead of rushing off to enlist would be... Well, it'd be absurd. Anyone, save the most skinheaded of militant nationalists, would think so.
Now, mind, I'd understand if it was some kind of brutal total war ala WW2 where it's the end for your entire culture if you lose, and thus everyone is expected to chip in in full on fight-them-on-the-beaches fashion, but it's not. It's a distant, colonial war, with no chance of spreading to the "motherland" whatsoever. Life, for the most part, goes on as normal.
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FW is much like the rest of Eve: The game mechanics can be pretty shit, but what makes it good is the people you meet, fly with, and do activities with. If you have people that have no interest in what you do, or share similar attitudes you're probably going to have a bad time doing things alone every day.
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FW is much like the rest of Eve: The game mechanics can be pretty shit, but what makes it good is the people you meet, fly with, and do activities with. If you have people that have no interest in what you do, or share similar attitudes you're probably going to have a bad time doing things alone every day.
I played FW for about a week with a group of close friends who I've known for years when they were trying the game, so the problem definitely wasn't the crowd I was running with. I just ended up feeling totally uninvested in it after not much time, since the victories were trivial and unpleasant due to how hostile people acted and the losses were essentially meaningless because of the low ship costs. It was like Team Fortress 2, only with 20 minute loading times and 1 minute matches.
I can appreciate that I probably have a weird perspective, though. It's strange, actually; In the way, the opposite of what you said is true for me. I have more fun playing alone or in tiny groups then with lots of others. What makes Eve fun for me is playing it like a Silent Hill game - Not the combat itself, but rather the feeling of tension and vulnerability that comes from trying to accomplish an objective while surrounded by far more dangerous opponents who are out for your blood. The sense of silence and solitude while knowing you could be jumped at any moment, the occasional combat being more based around panic and trying to make an awkward fighting retreat then actually win, etc.
That's why I usually like to do lowsec exploration in fairly frail, valuable ships.
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Well that's the thing isn't it? You can play Eve in a lot of ways but if you end up trying to tie an RP concept with gameplay you don't enjoy then why bemoan that fact? I'm not even sure what being a loyalist means in the context of Eve and FW for one anyway. If FW didn't exist I'd probably be in low-sec ganking people more or less as I am now and I could still justify being a, "Caldari Loyalist" I suppose because it would be contextualized as being the exact same deniable asset type I play now.
It just appears to me that people are having difficulty creating their own vision for their RP and merging that with what they like doing in Eve to me here. Because if you had a clear idea for both then it should be pretty easy to set your own objectives, no?
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It seems silly to me that anyone would think you need to fight in the faction war to be a loyalist. Afterall, there's several armed conflicts the country I presently live in is involved in, and I'm certainly not in any capacity. But for someone to accuse me of disloyalty to said country because I'm lazing around working from home instead of rushing off to enlist would be... Well, it'd be absurd. Anyone, save the most skinheaded of militant nationalists, would think so.
You see, this is the problem. I don't think anybody with an ounce of sense said 'You don't fight in FacWar so you're not a Loyalist.' It has always been 'I fight in FacWar so I'm a Loyalist.'
You might decide that, absent World War II, your lazing around working from home makes you as much of a patriot as a military veteran with 20 years of service but, even if he's just a truck mechanic, nobody else is going to agree with you.
Now if you'd been, say, a Navy mechanic or an Airforce administrator...
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It seems silly to me that anyone would think you need to fight in the faction war to be a loyalist. Afterall, there's several armed conflicts the country I presently live in is involved in, and I'm certainly not in any capacity. But for someone to accuse me of disloyalty to said country because I'm lazing around working from home instead of rushing off to enlist would be... Well, it'd be absurd. Anyone, save the most skinheaded of militant nationalists, would think so.
You see, this is the problem. I don't think anybody with an ounce of sense said 'You don't fight in FacWar so you're not a Loyalist.' It has always been 'I fight in FacWar so I'm a Loyalist.'
You might decide that, absent World War II, your lazing around working from home makes you as much of a patriot as a military veteran with 20 years of service but, even if he's just a truck mechanic, nobody else is going to agree with you.
Now if you'd been, say, a Navy mechanic or an Airforce administrator...
That depends. Here, if you serve a few tours of duty, decide that war is Hell and decide to become an anti-war activist, you'll definitely have people who've never served calling you a traitor. Then again, if you decide not to fight in a war you don't believe in and it turns out you were right about it being a bad idea, you get the same treatment.
I think being a "loyalist" doesn't necessarily mean you're doing what's best for the state. It often means you're loyal to the same principles as whoever's calling you that. It's all subjective.
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You see, this is the problem. I don't think anybody with an ounce of sense said 'You don't fight in FacWar so you're not a Loyalist.' It has always been 'I fight in FacWar so I'm a Loyalist.'
You might decide that, absent World War II, your lazing around working from home makes you as much of a patriot as a military veteran with 20 years of service but, even if he's just a truck mechanic, nobody else is going to agree with you.
Now if you'd been, say, a Navy mechanic or an Airforce administrator...
I wouldn't deny that, to be sure. Though, I would say that I'd probably consider someone who was, say, a social worker, as just as much a patriot as someone who served in the military, possibly even more so. Equally a doctor or firefighter or anything like that - The point is that they've done something to serve the community at large.
But my sentiment is that it's moot, because barely anyone would ever play more-patriotic-then-thou in such a fashion anyway. I doubt said mechanic would accuse me of not being a "Loyalist" simply because I'm living my life like a normal person, since society is based around normal people living normal lives. Basic loyalty or patriotism to your country isn't really something that needs to be proven, it's just assumed.
Too much of Eve roleplay is framed in an exclusively military context, I think.
Oh - And the sentiment above is true, also. An anti-war individual might consider the person involved in the military less of a pariot, even, for supporting a flawed cause. Though I won't delve too much into that idea, since it's probably a prickly one.
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Thing is, the Caldari State is described as being a deeply militarized society. While it doesn't mean to me that Caldari spend all day on the parade grounds, or being stereotypical right-wing nationalist jingoists, a military mindset does colour a lot of how Caldari think and see the world I'd say.
When I look at the Caldari State, I see very great similarities as to how they behave and think in a general sense to societies that perceive themselves to be small, and surrounded by potential enemies, thus requiring a militarized society -- Israel, Singapore, Prussia etc.
I also think a lot of Caldari justified what they were doing as being, "Anti-Heth" and now without Heth, they seem a bit up a creek without a paddle.
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I guess the real discussion here is then, "How can I be an industrialist/non-pvp'er and be recognized as a factional loyalist."
Essentially yes. While in my case I do PvP, I'm unable to with my current internet. :bash:
Ok, so I am going to do the dangerous thing and ask a question I may not like the answer to - is Dex Nederland not considered a State loyalist (Lai Dai) because he (and his corp) is primarily industrialist?
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Thing is, the Caldari State is described as being a deeply militarized society. While it doesn't mean to me that Caldari spend all day on the parade grounds, or being stereotypical right-wing nationalist jingoists, a military mindset does colour a lot of how Caldari think and see the world I'd say.
When I look at the Caldari State, I see very great similarities as to how they behave and think in a general sense to societies that perceive themselves to be small, and surrounded by potential enemies, thus requiring a militarized society -- Israel, Singapore, Prussia etc.
I also think a lot of Caldari justified what they were doing as being, "Anti-Heth" and now without Heth, they seem a bit up a creek without a paddle.
Well, "Militarized" doesn't mean "Pick up a gun and fight or you suck", by any means.
While a great deal of Caldari industry is of course focused on it's military-industrial complex, and most people recieve basic military training, the vast majority - To quote the demographics article, 95% - Aren't going to even be doing any indirect fighting themselves.
But I doubt they're not viewed as proper citizens for that reason.
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My little 2 cents, so take this how you will.
"Patriotism" has always been a prickly idea no matter how you look at it. Always has been because it remains an ideology, and each person have their definition of what it means to be a patriot or a nationalist - whether its IRL or in EVE.
To some being a patriot means going out on the streets and protesting for educational reform and defense budget cuts, because the future of the country lies in the students, and not the army.
To others, being a patriot means grumbling and writing blogs about increasing defense spending because the safety and security of the country is paramount to the prestige and the future of the nation.
And to others, being a patriot means helping people that are in need of help, because a strong society means that the nation as a whole will be strong through cohesion.
It all depends on perspective, and how receptive people are to opinions and on definitions on "what it means to be a patriot". Its like how I serve in the French army, and I'll have people say to me "thank you for your service". I personally don't see how I could be of service to them, but I suppose they see me as a patriot, when oddly enough, I share more with north american and japanese culture than I do with French culture, yet I think what I do is important... but not necessarily out of patriotism.
Fighting for what you believe in, putting actions where your words are, will always be "more important" or more of "value" than empty words, certainly. But the use of force whether lawful or unlawful doesnt necessarily make that more worthwhile than someone that utilizes his strength (economic, or social assistance) to help the greater community. Assuming in the first place that serving the community is patriotism.
Personally, I find that tying patriotism to the use of force/military service is very narrow-minded, and far too simply for an idea that is interpreted differently to each person.
Rather, the question should be, "is what I am doing advancing my interpretation of patriotism?"
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Thing is, the Caldari State is described as being a deeply militarized society. While it doesn't mean to me that Caldari spend all day on the parade grounds, or being stereotypical right-wing nationalist jingoists, a military mindset does colour a lot of how Caldari think and see the world I'd say.
When I look at the Caldari State, I see very great similarities as to how they behave and think in a general sense to societies that perceive themselves to be small, and surrounded by potential enemies, thus requiring a militarized society -- Israel, Singapore, Prussia etc.
I also think a lot of Caldari justified what they were doing as being, "Anti-Heth" and now without Heth, they seem a bit up a creek without a paddle.
Well, "Militarized" doesn't mean "Pick up a gun and fight or you suck", by any means.
While a great deal of Caldari industry is of course focused on it's military-industrial complex, and most people recieve basic military training, the vast majority - To quote the demographics article, 95% - Aren't going to even be doing any indirect fighting themselves.
But I doubt they're not viewed as proper citizens for that reason.
Who exactly is saying, "Pick up a gun or you suck"? The only times I ever really had to say that IC was during the Heth days when it was more or less the Caldari party line implied by the CPD.
These days?
It's just a territorial dispute, whose primary actors on the Fed-State side is KK, Lai Dai, Wiyrkomi for Caldari and Roden Shipyards, Blaque, and President Roden on the Fed side really. One issue among many that involve the State and Federation both internally and externally.
Hell, even if you're in a industrial concern why not actually release industry related material if you want exposure? Quarterly Reports, IPO, Share prospectus etc.
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Pretty much every angle anyone might choose will have weaknesses that can be attacked by people who want to bring you down.
-"I'm putting myself and my assets on the line fighting in faction warfare."
-"That pointless forever-war? You're wasting lives and resources better spent elsewhere."
-"Okay, so I just respond to State event call-to-arms."
-"You mean the ones that have lately been universally morally dodgy, derpy, or both?"
-"We're in nullsec flying a Caldari flag and-"
-"..-enriching yourselves while buying off your patriotic duty with some ISK and fancy words? Pfff."
-"Industry is-"
-"I feel like I'm repeating myself."
-"Aaaargh."
-"Gyaaaaah."
Moral of the story: pick something you like, stick with it, ignore the h8ers #yolo #KKswag
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Who exactly is saying, "Pick up a gun or you suck"? The only times I ever really had to say that IC was during the Heth days when it was more or less the Caldari party line implied by the CPD.
Well, no one. I was just being hyperbolic.
I just meant that they don't put military service on a pedestal too much more then usual, judging by the numbers.
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Who exactly is saying, "Pick up a gun or you suck"? The only times I ever really had to say that IC was during the Heth days when it was more or less the Caldari party line implied by the CPD.
Well, no one. I was just being hyperbolic.
I just meant that they don't put military service on a pedestal too much more then usual, judging by the numbers.
I guess you can just assume self-made hyperbole and then post on backstage about it, or not really.
I still have no idea what the hell people mean by Loyalist by the way: the only times I think it's proper to use is in situations such as a civil war to delineate specific political/personal loyalties in a conflict. I have clue what people mean by it in RP. Just sounds like trying to construct a stereotype and arbitrarily enforcing it upon people.
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I guess you can just assume self-made hyperbole and then post on backstage about it, or not really.
Uh... Pardon me?
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I guess you can just assume self-made hyperbole and then post on backstage about it, or not really.
Uh... Pardon me?
You made some exaggerations then said they were in fact just exaggerations?
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You made some exaggerations then said they were in fact just exaggerations?
Oh. Well, yeah, but I was just being silly. I never meant it seriously.
Like, I was saying to Pieter that I felt there were a bunch of positions in a society that would bring equal partiotic-cred as serving in the military, and I took your response as saying that the Caldari might not think of things that way because their society is so based around martial endeavour. So I was being a bit over-the-top in my wording to try and illustrate how their society having that focus wouldn't really change the expectations of individuals all that much without sounding super pedantic.
I'm apologize if it came across a little awkwardly.
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You made some exaggerations then said they were in fact just exaggerations?
Oh. Well, yeah, but I was just being silly. I never meant it seriously.
Like, I was saying to Pieter that I felt there were a bunch of positions in a society that would bring equal partiotic-cred as serving in the military, and I took your response as saying that the Caldari might not think of things that way because their society is so based around martial endeavour. So I was being a bit over-the-top in my wording to try and illustrate how their society having that focus wouldn't really change the expectations of individuals all that much without sounding super pedantic.
I'm apologize if it came across a little awkwardly.
Well I'd agree, what I was trying to point out was that the Caldari do seem to hold their military in esteem and are probably the least likely to criticize their armed forces. That said, it does at times feel to lend itself to some pretty over the top representations of soldiery by RP'ers -- how many ex-"special forces", and cardboard cutout Hollywood OOHRAH stereotype Marine archetypes do you see among Caldari characters? Don't know about you, I see a lot of them around. I think it's just about subtlety in the portrayal I guess and the fact that in reality, a capsuleer in Eve is presented as a freelancer, not an actual member of their members military and honestly anyone who seriously joins FW just so they can act out some kind of military fantasy and flash their militia ranks about gets nothing more than a ten-foot-pole and a, "lel" from me.
That I think has always been the problem with FW from an RP perspective. CCP portrays it as some kind of actual, real, hot war of national survival at times which doesn't actually mesh with what's happening. Some days I wish CCP would just bite the bullet and have all the factions forced by CONCORD to sign new peace accords with each other and return to the old Cold War dynamics of political tensions, where FW remains in place as the equivalent of a shadowy proxy war that is officially denied as happening. Fought by a rag-tag bunch of privateers, nationalists, military contractors and other ne'er-do-wells out of any combination of national pride, political loyalty, or just cold, hard, ISK.
You could even break it down as the "War" only being supported by certain internal factions interested or having a stake in it:
Caldari: KK, Lai Dai, Wiyrkomi
Gallente: Roden, Blaque, SDII, Sociocrats
Amarr: Sarum Family
Minmatar: Brutor Tribe, Shakor, Freedom Fighters
Which might add some interesting shenanigans contextualized as a proper capsuleer proxy war fought during a time of official peace.
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Ever since FW came out, it always felt as more of a raah-raah proxy war over some lawless region using capsuleers to do the dirty work rather than actual fighting. If it *was* indeed a real war, the last thing I would do is have freelance, uncontrollable demi-god capsuleers fight an actual war for me. Too unpredictable, no loyalty, and no collar to keep them in line. Its just not logical.
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On the other hand, they'll gladly slaughter the opposing side's fickle demi-gods in exchange for mere peanuts and funny-money. (LP, ISK, and a handful of proprietary modules and blueprint copies.)
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Well it doesn't change the divergence in presentation between CCP's, "This is a super serious war with serious consequences and oh, someone think of the children, it's horrible and terrible and everyone will die!" with what's actually happening in that everything's pretty much the same and life goes on with zero impact on the Homefront of any real consequence.
If that's the case, then might as well just make it the Eve equivalent of a RL Cold War proxy war in Africa, Latin America or SE Asia honestly where the RP isn't about wearing a uniform and playing soldier but having complicated and shadowy politics, hidden agendas, and denying you're even fighting a war.
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While I agree, "Epic war to decide the fate of the cluster" sells better, and that's probably all that matters much in CCPs eyes, even if it's functionally a load of rubbish.
It's kinda the same weird reality/concept mismatch and on-again off-again flirtation with out and out warfare that's been going on in WoW between the two factions pretty much since it was released. Total war is great marketing material, but carries gameplay implications that would alienate a lot of normal players.
Thus, the metafiction gets streched awkwardly so the creators can have their cake and eat it as well.
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I guess the real discussion here is then, "How can I be an industrialist/non-pvp'er and be recognized as a factional loyalist."
Essentially yes. While in my case I do PvP, I'm unable to with my current internet. :bash:
Ok, so I am going to do the dangerous thing and ask a question I may not like the answer to - is Dex Nederland not considered a State loyalist (Lai Dai) because he (and his corp) is primarily industrialist?
Judging by the responses in this thread, I would say that he is indeed considered a loyalist. But perhaps in the same venue as I-RED, for better or worse, being out in nullsec. I'll point out that LDIS did do service in FW, right? I mean you sold to FW markets.
But maybe this is about 'the grass is greener' for me, because you always seemed like one of 'the paragons' to me. :D
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Judging by the responses in this thread, I would say that he is indeed considered a loyalist. But perhaps in the same venue as I-RED, for better or worse, being out in nullsec. I'll point out that LDIS did do service in FW, right? I mean you sold to FW markets.
But maybe this is about 'the grass is greener' for me, because you always seemed like one of 'the paragons' to me. :D
Both, was in FW for about 6 months at the beginning and shifted to Black Rise development and not being in FW.
But I highly doubt our minor presence in FW is what causes people to think of Dex as a Caldari loyalist. What did I do that sets Dex up as a paragon to you?
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Judging by the responses in this thread, I would say that he is indeed considered a loyalist. But perhaps in the same venue as I-RED, for better or worse, being out in nullsec. I'll point out that LDIS did do service in FW, right? I mean you sold to FW markets.
But maybe this is about 'the grass is greener' for me, because you always seemed like one of 'the paragons' to me. :D
Both, was in FW for about 6 months at the beginning and shifted to Black Rise development and not being in FW.
But I highly doubt our minor presence in FW is what causes people to think of Dex as a Caldari loyalist. What did I do that sets Dex up as a paragon to you?
John respects you as one. That pretty much ends the debate for me!
Odd that I don't listen to his opinion when he says I'm doing a good job too though. xD
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Loyalist is such an interesting term. Same as 'enthusiast'. Hard to pin down, and in the end it comes down to what Leon has said: Doing something. Talking in the pub how bad things are is hardly patriotism. ;)
The other aspect, and I think that gets often mixed up here, is cred and to some extent notoriority. And that's basically impossible to gain just by posting threadnoughts (unless you shoot for DoS levels of cred) and only by achieving things. Doesn't matter what it is. EVE is real, and there are a lot of cool things one can do or be part of. People will be measured by their successes, and it doesn't matter if one paints oneself as roleplayer and tries to write it all in without lifting a finger.
'Being loyal' is just branding your actions in a certain way.
In the case of LDIS, unless you've changed it, it was always portrayed as a Lai Dai capsuleer subsidiary. There was the Black Rise frontier to develop, the FW markets to supply (thanks to the market as it is it was more or less impossible to just sell to the friendly militia back then - ironically, today it would be easier due to station lockout). Now there's a new frontier and there can be a believable case made for a state megacorporation using 'immortal mercenaries' to try and test the waters in this juicy looking space. Think secret colonies all over - they might be able to colonize into nullsec but are forbidden by CONCORD treaties.
Now someone can come in and tell you that you're just in for the money, you're just using paper claims... Then lean back, look at the history of your actions, adjust your aviators (optional) and tell him: "Grow up, son.", because you've been there, man, and you've done things. You're not one of those hippies writing awesome stories about their planetary empire, owned and operated by that super 1 man corporation.
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I might be wrong, but I think Jade coined loyalist. As an insult.
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Few things come to mind, as someone who's really more or less 'outside' the Heiian-jerk.
Over the now 6 years I've been playing EVE, 5 and a half of those with Morwen and RPing, I would say I've probably seen/heard more over the years about I-RED than I have about 4TH (and by extension, LDIS, CAIN, etc.), both ingame and out of game.
I'm left wondering if the reason I-RED catches a lot of flak is due to its apparent higher visibility than its Providence-bound counterpart. Looking at the two alliances side by side without any extensive knowledge of internal workings, here's what I see:
- Two alliances whose primary residence is nullsec. One is holding 'psuedo-sov' in NPC null, the other actually holds a bit of sov in Providence.
- Two alliances whose primary loyalty (beyond each other) in some way points to the Caldari State, even if the relevant megacorps are different.
- Two alliances whose members participate in a variety of activities, including PVE, PVP and industry.
- Two alliances, neither of whom is presently involved in FW, even if they have or have had interests or holdings inside the warzone.
The difference that is most apparent to me, as stated above, is that while I-RED takes a visibly active stance with other people, 4TH is dead fucking quiet in comparison, as far as making 'noise' publicly goes. I don't see anything being posted - whether it's quarterly reports, AARs, press releases, whatever - I just hear a whole lot of silence. If 4TH or its subgroups were posting about things they were doing, or getting actively involved outside of their little (maybe not so little, I don't keep tabs on sovnull most of the time) corner of space, would they perhaps catch more flak from people, simply for being a more visible target?
That said, and more to the point of the main discussion topic, I would be hard-pressed to say either group is not what I would consider State loyalists, though I might prefer to go with "<insert megacorp> loyalists" instead where applicable, since that's less likely to raise hackles.
Also Kat, there are days where I feel you wouldn't know how to take a compliment if it walked up to you, got down on one knee and proposed. (Like a lot of other people, myself included, to be fair... :lol: )
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In I-RED, the leadership are RPers while the rank and file are not. In 4th, the leadership are not RPers while a portion of the rank and file are. Also, since the Mito Conflict (https://truestories.eveonline.com/truestories/ideas/946-cains-crucible-the-mito-conflict.html) CAIN's, and now 4th's, moto has always been 'Quiet Competence'
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But do you think that more RPers might question the "loyalist" title of 4TH if you were more easily visible like I-RED is? Or if fewer would question I-RED, if they were less so?
That's more the question I'm asking - because it seems to me like visibility has a really big impact on how assailable a group becomes for this kind of discussion.
To put it a little more wordily: I-RED as an entity is really visible to us because, as you noted, the leadership is largely made up of RPers who are active in the community. What isn't so visible from I-RED is what things it does as an entity that provide some theoretical benefit for the State. This latter quality is something arguably shared by 4TH - the difference here is that 4TH is not as visible as an entity in general to the people who might start picking nits over whether a given group should be considered loyalists or not.
Do you think that being more visible as an entity would cause people to use that lack of easily visible/tangible benefits to the State as an excuse to attack 4TH's position as a group of loyalists?
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Also Kat, there are days where I feel you wouldn't know how to take a compliment if it walked up to you, got down on one knee and proposed. (Like a lot of other people, myself included, to be fair... :lol: )
True! I do have self esteem issues sometimes that pop up. :P
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I LOVE YOU KAT.
You may continue the conversation.
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I LOVE YOU KAT.
You may continue the conversation.
You're already married, tease. >:[
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From my - albeit somewhat limited - experience of doing FWing on my non-RP alt, I have to say that I have no clue why so many people like it so much. It seems like a dull, stressful, and unrewarding experience (even when you win) populated almost completely by jerks. But I find Eve PvP kinda horribly designed to begin with, so that's probably why I miss the buzz.
Well, I found it still a lot better than any other form of pvp... It was pvp you could do in 5 min, without much commitment. It was appreciable.
Though yeah, pretty much what you say. Fleet overview exercises are boring, and very small scale pvp (less than 5 people in fleet), is highly frustrating. Anyway, small scale pvp is highly frustrating, it's farming 1-2 hours to pay for a handful of ships, then looking for a target for another hour, and then getting ganked by the first blob you are unfortunate to meet.
And yes, average pvp joes on eve are complete retards. The atmosphere is obnoxious. Well at least, I had the chance to play in the Amarr militia, they well still at least a little close knit at the beginning...
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But do you think that more RPers might question the "loyalist" title of 4TH if you were more easily visible like I-RED is? Or if fewer would question I-RED, if they were less so?
...
Do you think that being more visible as an entity would cause people to use that lack of easily visible/tangible benefits to the State as an excuse to attack 4TH's position as a group of loyalists?
I think 4TH's relative lack of IGS presence, and thus "RP visibility" means that there is relatively little to no drama to be gained by assailing 4TH's credibility as State loyalist. While I was not involved in Mito, it shaped the culture of CAIN and subsequently 4TH's in many ways, to include its public relations.
For LDIS, I was very active on IGS for a while, to include LDIS financial reports (links here (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Lai_Dai_Infinity_Systems_(Player_corporation)), needs an update) on a roughly quarterly basis. However, after about a year or two on IGS following the release of FW, I was having conversations with the same people about the same things and could literally link threads where the same thing had been discussed. So, I stopped putting any of my play time there.
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I might be wrong, but I think Jade coined loyalist. As an insult.
Yeah well I always thought it to be a homogenizing term in the context of Eve that denies any form subtlety.
Fortunate then I don't bother trying to be a loyalist.
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I guess the real discussion here is then, "How can I be an industrialist/non-pvp'er and be recognized as a factional loyalist."
Essentially yes. While in my case I do PvP, I'm unable to with my current internet. :bash:
Ok, so I am going to do the dangerous thing and ask a question I may not like the answer to - is Dex Nederland not considered a State loyalist (Lai Dai) because he (and his corp) is primarily industrialist?
Kor considers Dex a State loyalist and valuable kirjuun (and I do OOC as well). <3
But don't think for a second that Kor would hesitate to work some kind of underhanded magic to try and score benefits (ISK, technology, womenz, etc) for Ishukone. :bear:
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While I was not involved in Mito, it shaped the culture of CAIN and subsequently 4TH's in many ways, to include its public relations.
Assuming you're talking about that big fiasco where the big Caldari loyalist alliance was destroyed by Star Fraction et al. That may be why I-RED vets don't post, like John.
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From my - albeit somewhat limited - experience of doing FWing on my non-RP alt, I have to say that I have no clue why so many people like it so much. It seems like a dull, stressful, and unrewarding experience (even when you win) populated almost completely by jerks. But I find Eve PvP kinda horribly designed to begin with, so that's probably why I miss the buzz.
Well, I found it still a lot better than any other form of pvp... It was pvp you could do in 5 min, without much commitment. It was appreciable.
Though yeah, pretty much what you say. Fleet overview exercises are boring, and very small scale pvp (less than 5 people in fleet), is highly frustrating. Anyway, small scale pvp is highly frustrating, it's farming 1-2 hours to pay for a handful of ships, then looking for a target for another hour, and then getting ganked by the first blob you are unfortunate to meet.
And yes, average pvp joes on eve are complete retards. The atmosphere is obnoxious. Well at least, I had the chance to play in the Amarr militia, they well still at least a little close knit at the beginning...
OT but I'd caution against lumping FW gameplay and PVP in with a lot of the other things going on. There's derpers everywhere, but FW derpers are of a particular variety, different from null derpers or high sec derpers or lowsec derpersn.
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TBQH - When I hear about large scale null actions involving hours of massing, station camping, structure bashing and 10% TIDI clusterfucks, I get quite misty-eyed about the joys of leaping into some T1 Frig hulls and going roaming to cull the herds in local systems.
For the most part it's graft - setting up ambushes, waiting in plexes or on plex gates, landing on grid as the locals tear off in the opposite direction, venting from every orifice - but there are plenty of kills to be had (can't remember the last time we went on a one hour roam and came back blueballed) and every now and then you find an idiot in a blingy ship that makes it all worthwhile.
Short, punchy and fast engagements that let you be aggressive without destroying your wallet.
As for derpery, every time a large nullsec organisation deploys to FW lowsec because they assume it's the idiot hole, filled by people who would love to be nullbros but don't have a CNS, we start seeing BIG wreck clusters on gates and at stations.
Yes, we're niche predators, but in that niche...
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Yeah, that was my feeling too...
Though how many are you in your fleets ?
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I tend to be solo, duo or at most 4-6 man frig/dessie fleet in FW.
I think the preponderance of frig/dessie pvp is what most people complain about the most with FW to me. If you don't have the mindset for it, or don't enjoy it, then I don't think that's a problem with FW myself.
There's lots of different types of PvP in Eve, and just as I find the concept of gatecamping, capital fights, and BC+ fleets with the convenience of bubbles in nullsec pretty boring just as others probably find FW frig/dessie PvP boring because most of it is in the actual hunting, the baiting, and the ganking.
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Small scale (Frig/Destroyer/Cruiser) allows one to be more aggressive, which in turn leads to people generally taking more risks, which then leads to more explosions. FW enviroment (taking part in it adds blues, more legal targets and some monetary benefits) in lowsec acts as a good catalyst for fights, as the visible plexes are a much easier way to find people being active and allow shaping the possible battlefield through warp-in advantage, plex sizes and 'warp anomaly' around acceleration gates.
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I'd also say that a major part of why FW is frig/dessy dominant is because T1 frigs can enter plexes of all sizes. As mass increases, you start being locked out of plexes. vOv It's similar to WH space's focus on T3s and AHACs.
That said, KAT! <3
That is all.
Well, not all all. I find MorLag's comment on PYRE about spot on. Also, visibility definitely feeds into the critique. More IGS/Summit/lounge /emote presence leads to more conflict.
That said, aside from killboards and FW, there aren't many public ways to demonstrate loyalty. Sure, there're events, but most of the recent events have frankly been terrible-- to the point that I no longer feel bad that my being in the US means they're never accessible to me. Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."
So, anyway, I wouldn't worry about it. Reputation comes with time, and I'd say you have it. Frankly, when I was starting back up, Kat's role as I-RED spokeskitten was a tiny bit daunting.
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That said, KAT! <3
Oh I've got some new plans for you, Little Miss Honeybun. You just wait'n see. ♥
(No Really, I do. Fancy I-RED plans for all to see!)
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Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."
There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.
NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.
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There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.
NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.
Exactly. It's the one of ultimate hypocrisies of EVE RP, imho.
I don't even bother trying to show off my mission work or standings with anyone these days, because I know it will just be dismissed. It isn't difficult to do in gameplay compared to PvP, so it's summarily ignored by many PvPers because "lol carebear". There are even some characters I've encountered that dismiss missioning AND nullsec in the same breath. Predictably, they were in the militia.
Now, there are a LOT of characters I've met, and players, who are willing to throw you a bone and nod their head in respect at your dogged determination to expel the neverending invasion of deadspace pirates in highsec via L4 agents. There are a lot of players and characters who'd do the same about nullsec service, acknowledging that it in fact a very dangerous place to fly and you've got some guts for fighting the good fight out there for your faction. I'm not saying it's a widespread issue of hypocrisy, as honestly... most of the people who have that issue are not those I RP with anyways.
I think a lot of this issue would be solved by the introduction of ranks or decorations for PvE. I can imagine the rage on General Discussion already because of this, but I think the removal of publicly visible standings for players really hurt the RP scene and PvE in general. You can't even prove (without showing screenshots) that you have a certain level of standing with an Empire.
But then again, I've seen characters/players dismiss the standings mechanic completely as nonsense too, so even if we could show them off, I suspect there would always be plenty of folks who just ignore them and still say you're a carebear who isn't fighting the good fight.
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There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.
NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.
Exactly. It's the one of ultimate hypocrisies of EVE RP, imho.
I don't even bother trying to show off my mission work or standings with anyone these days, because I know it will just be dismissed. It isn't difficult to do in gameplay compared to PvP, so it's summarily ignored by many PvPers because "lol carebear". There are even some characters I've encountered that dismiss missioning AND nullsec in the same breath. Predictably, they were in the militia.
Now, there are a LOT of characters I've met, and players, who are willing to throw you a bone and nod their head in respect at your dogged determination to expel the neverending invasion of deadspace pirates in highsec via L4 agents. There are a lot of players and characters who'd do the same about nullsec service, acknowledging that it in fact a very dangerous place to fly and you've got some guts for fighting the good fight out there for your faction. I'm not saying it's a widespread issue of hypocrisy, as honestly... most of the people who have that issue are not those I RP with anyways.
I think a lot of this issue would be solved by the introduction of ranks or decorations for PvE. I can imagine the rage on General Discussion already because of this, but I think the removal of publicly visible standings for players really hurt the RP scene and PvE in general. You can't even prove (without showing screenshots) that you have a certain level of standing with an Empire.
But then again, I've seen characters/players dismiss the standings mechanic completely as nonsense too, so even if we could show them off, I suspect there would always be plenty of folks who just ignore them and still say you're a carebear who isn't fighting the good fight.
Dedicated Minmatar loyalist, 8.37 Khanid Innovation standing.
:lol:
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Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."
There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.
NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.
Jesus fucking christ, this. THIS. :|
There's a number of reasons I often don't discuss mission-running IC, or play down the amount that I actually do, but the "lololol PVE you suck and contribute nothing to the world get out and PVP or kill yourself IRL srsly" attitude is a pretty big one.
Dedicated Minmatar loyalist, 8.37 Khanid Innovation standing.
:lol:
100% my fault, and fucking proud of it. :3
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So where's the thread where you can post screenshots of your standings to prove to others how you've worked so hard doing level four missions to be a loyalist?
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So where's the thread where you can post screenshots of your standings to prove to others how you've worked so hard doing level four missions to be a loyalist?
Tada! (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5597.0)
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So people complain that FW is terrible because there's no objectives and no conclusion to it etc. Then say that running highsec missions for hours on end doing the same repetitive missions while shooting at AI is their idea of interactive and engaging RP as a "loyalist"?
Okay then.
Why not just be honest and say you want to be recognized and validated as a loyalist while spinning ships in station then?
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I would like to see anyone dictate to me that I am not a loyalist. I view anyone who RP's as a Caldari Loyalist as a Caldari Loyalist, I don't question it because its not my place. Dex, Diana, Pieter, Vikarion, and Katrina are all loyalists because they all support the State in their own way.
I-RED may not be viewed as loyalists in the eyes of many, but that doesn't matter to us because in the end we know where our loyalties lie. I-RED cannot join FW because of our industrial base which is quite larger then most would think, it is just heavily regimented and secure unlike most industrial organizations. We are in Syndicate because Ishukone wishes it, what you believe is your own right.
For the newer RPers I would ask you do some background checks on organizations before you dictate to them how to be loyal, I-RED has done more then most for the State even if it heavily involves backroom deals.
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(citation needed)
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Even more hilarious coming from a Sansha RPer.
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Uh....
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By that, I mean to say that the [citation needed] comment, while entertaining, is exactly the animus that causes FW-centric RPers to reject non-FW loyalists as frauds, which is what's been discussed for most of this thread. Of course, it's hilarious in its own right as pirate RPers have virtually no ability to demonstrate loyalty to their faction save :SANSHA: or :ANGEL: or such while doing the usual lowsec PvP, making it largely indistinguishable from any non-FW lowsec corp out there-- unless they're running missions in null, which, well.
Basically, RP-wise, so long as someone doesn't actively contradict lore or make nonsensical claims, we just have to roll with it.
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Roleplaying is inherently action orientated (in a multitude of forms). Citation is required because there are many who have seen I-RED grow up and see nothing but action for personal profit rather than "for the State" as claimed. It's fair to say that if most of your "loyalism" is through back room dealings then very few people would know about that. Turning around and saying "well that proves it" just isn't the case.
As for "loyalism" I couldn't give a rats arse who or what people peg me as; partially because there's already massive bias towards certain "brands" of roleplay, and partially because people will label you based on personal feelings, not facts.
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Thread is delivering massive popcorn value, with added salt. I am genuinely confused as to what brought on this general bout of insecurity, though. Who's calling who disloyal, again?
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Explain something for me. You are saying that you dislike the bias toward certain brands of roleplay, and that you dismiss people's tendency to label based on personal feeling instead of fact, at the very same time that you try to call out JFR on basis that you feel I-RED doesn't have any mechanism to establish its loyalty, and is just acting for purposes of personal profit. My apologies, but-- this seems a little bit hypocritical?
Yes, roleplaying is by definition action-oriented-- but if someone RPing Sansha pewpews in lowsec flying the Nation flag, surely someone RPing Ishukone pewpewing in nullsec flying the Ishukone flag warrants the same treatment?
Otherwise-- we have what? I-RED should all be running L4s for Ishu? The alliance would die of boredom in three months-- and I say this having run too many missions, myself. Come to Caldari live events? What, every four or five months when they happen, and endure more tidi and general derpiness than we get in Syndicate already? Does Shaktipat/TS-F run L4s in Stain all the time?
Nah. Let's just fly the flag and play how we like.
Shiori; I think it was general PYRE/I-RED backbiting in IGS a few weeks ago.
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Maybe I'm just adding fuel to the fire, but isn't the idea of shooting pirates ICly the same as FW? I mean, one is against player characters, one is against NPCs, but in-game there isn't really a distinction between them. Pirates have capsuleers as well. Whatever your take on the gameplay and challenge of it all is, you'd think the government wouldn't really throw a fit because capsuleers are wasting their time shooting Guristas and Sansha raiders who don't really care about their space instead of entering their regulated CEWPA conflict.
The idea of separating PVP and PVE content seems like it's more of an OOC issue than an IC one. You'd think loyal Caldari would be fighting the Feds and/or the pirates. Hell, you could make the case that a freighter hauling equipment to Caldari fleets farther from their home system would be loyalists, or scientists trying to build better weapons for them.
On that note, you could go into the CEWPA zone to get paid or go out exploring for Sleeper sites out of a sense of loyalty. It doesn't seem like we really have a good in-game way to measure loyalty. That's all in characterization that gets handled in the actual playing of the character.
It's kind of like when someone plays a scientist who is supposed to be a genius. You can say that, and you could have trained skills from when the game began and thus have a huge wellspring of knowledge. However, if you can't play someone intelligent and you're constantly being outwitted at every turn, you can't really blame others for not taking the game statistics seriously. Likewise, loyalty seems to be something you have to weave into your character play rather than something you can demonstrate with points or stuff.
Some of the most loyal people in history went down hated and disrespected by their own governments and plenty of people who were hugely supported by their governments until we peeled apart the history and found out they were terrible people who didn't give a damn about their country or causes. It doesn't seem like we can measure a personality trait with statistical government approval.
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Please don't argue, people.
Read the OP. This isn't about insecurity or doing it wrong. Its simply a discussion about how else to do loyalist stuff without FW or PvP. Nobody is doing it wrong, okay? There have been lots of great ideas presented already that are in the works on my end, so no need to be upset.
Also this has NOTHING to do with Pyre. Don't blame them. I simply saw a post on the IGS that got me thinking, ok?
Please everyone chill out
Edited for Formatting and typos because phones suck.
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If faction warfare is a pointless Forever War, faction missions are a pointless Red Queen's Race - it takes all the running you can do just to get a few more megaISK, a forgettable blurb of text that you'll see repeated verbatim before the hour is over, and a quickly disappearing wreck field. Nothing else changes.
In fact, mechanically speaking, the less you talk to your agent, the fewer incursions you have to go and stop or crass misdeeds you're told to go avenge your faction will suffer~
Nah. Let's just fly the flag and play how we like.
This seems like a reasonable compromise.
Also this has NOTHING to do with Pyre. Don't blame them. I simply say a post that got me thinking ok?
You can blame us, it's okay! With the possible exception of our long-suffering diplomat, PYRE are generally horrible people in- and to some degree out- of character. The barometer at PYRE HQ, when pointed at this thread, reads "befuddled amusement (investigate for possible tear extraction)".
On the flip side, we ♥ I-RED. Enough to have loud and public IC spats with them!
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Shiori; I think it was general PYRE/I-RED backbiting in IGS a few weeks ago.
I think it was some characters calling others stupid, then got their loyalities questioned in an attempt to paint one's actions as super honorubra, which lead to a bit of a cooling down in the relations. Seriously, I am quite puzzled how "You jumped willingly into a trap. This was not a tactical mistake, an ambush or tragedy but massively stupid."* transformed into "We Did It For The State! For Space Bushido! Thousand Achuran Vigirns Weep Over The Lost Souls! You Should Feel Ashamed For Questioning Their Sacrifice!
Can't really understand how this spawned this thread, as it was, at least to me, a very minor thing.
*Snark increased after being forced to repeat point multiple times. Bitch can be moody.
JFR, sans the bark in his post, has got it right. People claiming to be loyalists will be treated as such. 'Loyalist' isn't a club you get invited to, and it isn't a title that has to be earned, simply because everyone can call himself one (or come up with a story that makes him/her one). Reputation is earned and entirely dependant on the peer group.
edit: Sneaking another point in: Missions sure are a way to go. I'd be hesitant to raise its importance too much, as consequent application of math would lead to headachy numbers throughout the cluster, so it ought to be taken with a small industrial full of salt (PS: What about FW missions).
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..Thousand Achuran Virgins..
Uh, boss. There cannot possibly be that many left, unless there's a new Achuran cultural rule that says "it doesn't count if you're covered in butter at the time" or something..
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P.S. And <3 PYRE, too, even if the tear-extraction gives me a headache sometimes. :lol:
So.
And yeah, re: the CONCORD sheep-to-slaughter thing, thank god Mak didn't have to wade into the thing with the line: "What's the greater duty? The duty to one's commander, or the duty to one's crew?" or some trite tripe like that. :oops:
Anyway. Back to this. :cube: Kat. I'm at work, and looking for something to counteract my boredom. Sorry if I got a bit feisty!
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The IGS thread between myself and PYRE is unrelated to this one, Desi.
This was spawned by seeing Vikarion give a nod of respect to Stitcher because he served in FW, despite his current loyalties (which at the time were still in Reawakened Technologies). That wasn't bad, mind you, it was just something that got me thinking about what kind of lifetime membership card FW gives a character. This isn't something you guys did wrong... or anyone for that matter.
Edited for Formatting and typos because phones suck.
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Well, we're full enough of ourselves that we consider it a fact that we never do anything wrong. 8)
I've missed a word in my post, I was 'initially' wondering about the origins of this thread. My pardons, you've clarified it somewhat earlier in this threadnought.
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JFR, sans the bark in his post, has got it right. People claiming to be loyalists will be treated as such. 'Loyalist' isn't a club you get invited to, and it isn't a title that has to be earned, simply because everyone can call himself one (or come up with a story that makes him/her one). Reputation is earned and entirely dependant on the peer group.
Thank you. I apologies if I came off as rude it was not the intention. As for Sofia's watching us grow. That is purely our OOC side of dick swinging that comes with the territory called Syndicate via Failheap Forums (Mainly making fun of myself, or derping fleets for the amusement of others).
Syndicate has value to Ishukone, or they wouldn't have multiplie stations there. But I am sure everyone knows this.
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I pretty much agree with Des earlier post regarding 'Loyalist' as being a self proclaimed title that others accept. My only comment would be that my own observations bear out that most any standard of 'proof', be it standings, or metrics, is typically ignored on a whim over the smallest disagreements, or just because it's convenient. The difference between story driven conflict and pointless drama is a thin one, in pretty much any MMORP scene, and the latter rarely results in anything enjoyable.
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I pretty much agree with Des earlier post regarding 'Loyalist' as being a self proclaimed title that others accept. My only comment would be that my own observations bear out that most any standard of 'proof', be it standings, or metrics, is typically ignored on a whim over the smallest disagreements, or just because it's convenient. The difference between story driven conflict and pointless drama is a thin one, in pretty much any MMORP scene, and the latter rarely results in anything enjoyable.
Good point.
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Well, this particular "fucked up hypocrite" finds that reading this thread has filled him with apathy.
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Well, this particular "fucked up hypocrite" finds that reading this thread has filled him with apathy.
Nooooo! Bah. This thread has been a disaster.
Look, Vikarion, you're not a fucked up hypocrite. I know what Lyn said is inflammatory, but I'm not calling you out in this thread. I'm looking for an opinion on it. I'll PM you and hopefully we can talk in-game or something. :/
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Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."
There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.
NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.
Except this is all bullshit, because Highsec PvE is NOT connected to the NPC gameworld and carries very little risk. The crises you are responding to are created out of whole cloth the moment you click 'Request Mission'. You then climb into your (virtually) safe blingmachine and are handheld as you soar your way to a cluster(fuck) of ships that are basically obsolete, underpowered and stupid.
After slaughtering supposed millions of bad guys in a battle (singlehandedly) you return to a very luke warm reception and the capsuleer equivalent of a small envelope full of fivers. The worlds-shattering crisis that you supposedly averted then despawns, never to be seen or referenced again.
They don't even count the ships you destroy. Whatever you wipe out is immediately replaced from stocks - despite the fact that only Sansha should really have that capacity. In fact Sansha can afford to support the losses from missions, ratting in Stain AND Incursions, quite comfortably.
You talk about the Forever War? What kind of dent has been put in Serpentis, Gurista, Sansha Blooder et al operations by High Sec Missioning?
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Excellent description, Pieter. In the current state of the game, you're absolutely correct in that they are laughably easy and considered the second-to-bottom rung of EVE's gameplay with only highsec mining regarded with more derision. It's boring, predictable, and far too easy with today's ships. It's languishing without developer attention, despite their promises to revamp the whole missioning aspect of the game.
HOWEVER, mission agents and the capsuleers they hand out jobs to have been referenced in the books and chronicles as something important to the gameworld, and I think it's a mistake to ignore that because the actual game mechanic is vastly outdated and stale.
For now, I am in complete agreement that it simply cannot be used in RP the way it is. Do I want it to be a valid RP leverage point? Of course! But I realize it can't be right now. I think, given some serious developer attention to make it challenging and immersive again, we can get to a point where missioning of all types, even down to level 1 highsec missions, can be something worth the respect of other characters.
As a side note, how similar are missions to bunker capturing and plexing and such? I've never done FW, so I don't know how those hybrid PvE-PvP sites work. Disregarding the PvP aspect of it... say, assume that nobody ever bothers you while you do it... are the NPCs there stronger or equal to mission NPCs? What different behaviors do they exhibit? Is there truth to the rumor that these sites are handled by single warp stabbed frigates? Are they also created 'out of the cloth'?
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Well, this particular "fucked up hypocrite" finds that reading this thread has filled him with apathy.
Nooooo! Bah. This thread has been a disaster.
Look, Vikarion, you're not a fucked up hypocrite. I know what Lyn said is inflammatory, but I'm not calling you out in this thread. I'm looking for an opinion on it. I'll PM you and hopefully we can talk in-game or something. :/
I'm not upset. I'm just...not sure how to respond.
I'll just respond to what you've said, I think.
First, I do appreciate some of the things you've done. The Asakai support, although sadly ill-fated, was nonetheless awesome. But there are a few negatives on your plate that you have to deal with, and a few positives that you aren't taking advantage of.
On the negative side, you tend to self-sabotage. For example, in the kablooiee of a thread on the IGS that was a result of CCP's latest attempt at killing interest in live activities, you apparently decided that the best way to defend your participation was to question the loyalty of those who didn't show up. That's generally considered a dick move, not least because many people can't make it to live events. (Or, like me, you have sworn eternal unending vengeance against them.) It's also kind of a dumb PR move, because, frankly, the fastest way to get other loyalists to start dropping bombs is to intimate that they aren't as loyal as you, because they didn't do something. You may not have meant it that way, but it sure looked that way.
On the positive side, you need to learn how to use propaganda effectively. Because I-RED does not. I don't mean flashy posters. I mean the steady feeding of a certain version of the truth. You don't need to attack your attackers - it's fun, but as an organization, it is generally a pleasure to be abstained from. Don't write "unlike X, we actually showed up to the State's call". Write "...we felt that we were obligated to answer the call of the State, and while the results were unfortunate, we believe that the call to duty cannot be ignored". What's another loyalist to say to that? And yet, it contains all the criticism and self-justification of the first one.
Also, you need to get your story out there. Many wars are won not just by which side is capable of winning, but by which side tells its story the best - to itself and to others. And this usually means engaging with people on the IGS, for us RPers. Otherwise, your opposition's story is the only one which is heard. There are a few rules for this, too:
1. You are awesome - but not ridiculously so. Admit defeats, but qualify them. "We will continue to resist", etc. Act gracious in victory, preferably after claiming anything you reasonably can as a victory.
2. Never admit complete fault. Even if your product is causing men to become pregnant with vicious weasels, you "regret that a small percentage of users are suffering from side effects". It's not your fault that Caldari militia are mad at you, for "you regret that a small portion of the militia is attempting to create division in our joint struggle".
3. Learn how to counter-punch. When someone accuses you of shooting blues, establish the "Blue Orphans Donation Fund Grant Thing". If someone says that you are harvesting 101 dalmatians for their coats, have video ready of you nursing a sick scottish terrier. Then point out that your opponent is wearing polka dots and wonder aloud if they might be projecting. And better yet, do a few of these things before hand. That way, when someone accuses you of hamster squishing, you can go "how can you possibly accuse us of such a terrible crime? Doesn't anyone realize that we founded the Hamster Preservation Society last year?!?"
And, lastly, if you want loyalists to have your back, stop sniping at them so much, and at common enemies so little. My general rule is that I need about 5-7 anti-someone-else posts for every "you suck at being Caldari" post. Because, let's admit it: one of the best things about being Caldari is that we ARE better than everyone else. ;) So, you need to demonstrate that. Sure, Kat thinks that Vikarion is a total patriot douche, but she'd make sweet, sweet love to him and every other patriot and practical before she'd give a Gallente model a kiss. Why? Because fuck them, that's why. We're family. Sure, I hate you and you hate me, but only when there isn't someone else around to really keep us busy.
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Well, the threat in a Militia Complex is NEVER the npcs. They are simply there to ensure you can't run a plex in a ship without guns anymore. The threat in complexes is, well, people. People who are sneaky. People who cheat. People who want you dead - however they have to do it.
They might do it by bringing a Dramiel to a Merlin fight. They might do it by jumping in with 19 friends. They might fly a small gang with links and drugs.
Anyway, talking about ship kills only really works Capsuleer vs Capsuleer, IMO. Nobody with any credibility talks about how many NPC (baseliner) battleships they smoked last week (way more than you militia dweebs!). Which is NOT to say that I don't nod and smile when people talk about running Internal Security ops for the Corps making them Loyalists. It absolutely does! It just means that they have to be really vague about what they've done. They can't go into details - unless they make them up. When Lowsec and FW pilots can talk about specific battles - hell, we can talk about individual kills, and back them up with an ingame report that corroborates our deeds.
Perhaps that makes missioners defensive. Perhaps it makes the rest of us unwarrantedly arrogant. I don't know the answer to that.
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On the negative side, you tend to self-sabotage. For example, in the kablooiee of a thread on the IGS that was a result of CCP's latest attempt at killing interest in live activities, you apparently decided that the best way to defend your participation was to question the loyalty of those who didn't show up. That's generally considered a dick move, not least because many people can't make it to live events. (Or, like me, you have sworn eternal unending vengeance against them.) It's also kind of a dumb PR move, because, frankly, the fastest way to get other loyalists to start dropping bombs is to intimate that they aren't as loyal as you, because they didn't do something. You may not have meant it that way, but it sure looked that way.
Yeah that wasn't the intended point. I wasn't trying to say anyone is less loyal at all, but that's how it was taken. So the fault is on me for poorly presenting my posts. I admit defeat in that category, honestly. The takeaway from that is actually then to 'be more careful about what you say'.
On the positive side, you need to learn how to use propaganda effectively. Because I-RED does not. I don't mean flashy posters. I mean the steady feeding of a certain version of the truth. You don't need to attack your attackers - it's fun, but as an organization, it is generally a pleasure to be abstained from. Don't write "unlike X, we actually showed up to the State's call". Write "...we felt that we were obligated to answer the call of the State, and while the results were unfortunate, we believe that the call to duty cannot be ignored". What's another loyalist to say to that? And yet, it contains all the criticism and self-justification of the first one.
Good advice. I've been wary of using propaganda, ironically, because of failures as seen above.
Also, you need to get your story out there. Many wars are won not just by which side is capable of winning, but by which side tells its story the best - to itself and to others. And this usually means engaging with people on the IGS, for us RPers. Otherwise, your opposition's story is the only one which is heard. There are a few rules for this, too:
1. You are awesome - but not ridiculously so. Admit defeats, but qualify them. "We will continue to resist", etc. Act gracious in victory, preferably after claiming anything you reasonably can as a victory.
2. Never admit complete fault. Even if your product is causing men to become pregnant with vicious weasels, you "regret that a small percentage of users are suffering from side effects". It's not your fault that Caldari militia are mad at you, for "you regret that a small portion of the militia is attempting to create division in our joint struggle".
3. Learn how to counter-punch. When someone accuses you of shooting blues, establish the "Blue Orphans Donation Fund Grant Thing". If someone says that you are harvesting 101 dalmatians for their coats, have video ready of you nursing a sick scottish terrier. Then point out that your opponent is wearing polka dots and wonder aloud if they might be projecting. And better yet, do a few of these things before hand. That way, when someone accuses you of hamster squishing, you can go "how can you possibly accuse us of such a terrible crime? Doesn't anyone realize that we founded the Hamster Preservation Society last year?!?"
We have something in the works atm. We're going to start making posts very soon.
And, lastly, if you want loyalists to have your back, stop sniping at them so much, and at common enemies so little. My general rule is that I need about 5-7 anti-someone-else posts for every "you suck at being Caldari" post. Because, let's admit it: one of the best things about being Caldari is that we ARE better than everyone else. ;) So, you need to demonstrate that.
I will start shitting on pirates more often? Will that help? I-RED doesn't officially take issue with the Fed atm, so Kat can't go off the fuckin' handle at them as much as she'd like to... but she can certainly rag on pirates!
Sure, Kat thinks that Vikarion is a total patriot douche, but she'd make sweet, sweet love to him and every other patriot and practical before she'd give a Gallente model a kiss. Why? Because fuck them, that's why. We're family. Sure, I hate you and you hate me, but only when there isn't someone else around to really keep us busy.
You haven't met Erys, have you? She's actually half Caldari, so I get your point though. Kat does pretty much despise the Federation itself. She just keeps it quiet.
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Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."
There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.
NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.
Except this is all bullshit, because Highsec PvE is NOT connected to the NPC gameworld and carries very little risk. The crises you are responding to are created out of whole cloth the moment you click 'Request Mission'. You then climb into your (virtually) safe blingmachine and are handheld as you soar your way to a cluster(fuck) of ships that are basically obsolete, underpowered and stupid.
After slaughtering supposed millions of bad guys in a battle (singlehandedly) you return to a very luke warm reception and the capsuleer equivalent of a small envelope full of fivers. The worlds-shattering crisis that you supposedly averted then despawns, never to be seen or referenced again.
They don't even count the ships you destroy. Whatever you wipe out is immediately replaced from stocks - despite the fact that only Sansha should really have that capacity. In fact Sansha can afford to support the losses from missions, ratting in Stain AND Incursions, quite comfortably.
You talk about the Forever War? What kind of dent has been put in Serpentis, Gurista, Sansha Blooder et al operations by High Sec Missioning?
Yeah, but isn't that an OOC distinction? I mean, if you want to put more emphasis on FW, that's fine, it's completely your decision. But ICly, I don't think the Caldari State is rolling their eyes at people protecting their freight lines from the Guristas. They probably aren't doing that for the Gallente either, but I think we're kind of all applying OOC dramaz to an IC question. Either way, one less ship, pirate or capsuleer, is one less ship at that particular minute. It's less crew from that faction that they have to replace. It's one less ship in the ratio that determines who "rules" that part of space.
If anything, though, I'd say they at least have an agreement saying the Gallente can't wholesale invade Caldari space while pirates have no such agreement. On the other hand, it isn't like the Caldari have any reason to believe that and the Gallente are at least technically a bigger entity. On the other, other hand, the pirate factions do seem to have a lot of sleeper tech that can tip the balance.
I just don't really worry that much about what in particular people are killing. Loyalty is more of a character trait, and the combat can seem just as pointless whichever way you look at it. OOC it's a different story and the dick-comparing shall continue, but I don't know that it's a big distinction as far as the Caldari State is concerned.
Maybe it's just years of architecture school and practice making my pride completely bulletproof, but it's really hard for me to care about in-game accomplishments or even bother to look them up to verify whether someone is "legit." If they can RP it intelligently and intriguingly, I wouldn't care if someone said he was a grimy mercenary no matter where he spent his time in-game. I think the emphasis on game stats and mechanics to affect IC issues sometimes takes these proverbial gods-in ships and hardened starfighters and just makes them sound like raging video gamers.
I've tried to roll that into my RP a bit, but if anything, that's why FW kind of doesn't seem as interesting as an IC background to me. The RP bickering between factions and even within imperial groups from PVPers to everyone else very much sounds like video gamers bitching at one of the LAN parties we used to throw. Luckily, you've kind of avoided that by getting away from the pettiness of it all, but that's sort of my personal reason for not bothering to look up anyone's killboard. It seriously wouldn't make a difference if you hadn't killed anyone all year, Pieter's an interesting character and I think you're a pretty good roleplayer. I'd give you exactly the same reaction.
I would say that you shouldn't call yourself the master of starship gladiator dueling unless you're willing to get called out on it. Don't play a character that's smarter than you are, don't play a character more charming than you are, and don't play a character with better shipboard combat skills than you've got. There's a reason I play a pair of characters who are known for things that don't involve ship combat; you can't play a character that can invest more time into learning how to PVP than you do IRL.
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Maybe it's my experience roleplaying in other MMORPGS talking - Where every activity is a completely unimpactful venture conjured purely out of thin air to service the quest the player is currently on - But it seems sort of blendy (in the IC/OOC capacity) to say that completing PvP content is more "real" within the context of the setting then completing PvE stuff. That'd be like a character in a play deriding, as that character, another character because their action scene was orchestrated using a combination of props and special effects rather then with an actual fight with another actor. From the perspective of an audience member, it would be a fair to comment that the first fight was quite a bit tackier, but the character has no business drawing a distinction.
And besides, despite CCP's claims otherwise, Eve isn't remotely real. It's a video game. Everything that happens in it is just the product of constructs they have created to provide the players with enjoyment. The only difference is the size of the construct you happen to partake in, be they tiny (missions), medium sized (faction warfare) or massive (sov warfare). They're all fairly stagnant sandboxes in the end, with just variable amounts of time before it rains and get washed back to how they started.
Fake edit: Oh, other people basically said this already. Well, that's what I get for spending 3 hours going back and fourth to typing up a short post.
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Thing is, if all you're doing is running missions then from a certain IC perspective it's justifiable that nothing really separates your character from the countless thousands of other military contractors doing exactly the same. It's the same with doing industry or trade. The distinctions lie in how you portray your character, much like in the real world personality counts for a lot. The same could be said for doing PvP. Thing is for me, when people end up trying to portray a character that isn't congruent with what's happening in-game. If all you do is missions, industry, or trade then try to play some sort of hardened badass then don't get your panties in a knot if those other capsuleers who shoot other capsuleers look up your KB and go, "Oh really guy?" It's the same as if I tried to pass Veikitamo Gesakaarin as a philanthropist who cares about the children, then complained if people called her to account on her outlaw sec status and all the spaceships she's exploded in lowsec. Everything is a matter of perspective and you can't tell other players or characters how they should view your own.
The only qualifier of any importance to me is if your character does as they say and it doesn't matter if it's exploration, industry, trade, missions, or whatever else you want to do in the game. However, if you remain unsatisfied that your character isn't being treated the way you think they should be, then at least recognize that if there's going to be any pretense of realism in RP then of course there's going to be varying opinions and perspectives about them that can change over time -- that's a good thing.
The reason why I hate the very concept of loyalist as it applies to Eve is that it's always going to be a denial of subtlety and varied perspective. It just makes everything black and white, loyalist or not, that makes RP boring as fuck. I've never been concerned about it, but it always seems like every character I might interact with has players that want to be some kind of loyalist stereotype and get into some kind of who is more loyal recognition/popularity contest.
Screw that, I've worked long and hard to ensure there's enough legitimate excuses to loathe either myself, my characters, and the organization they are a part of to care all too much. I also sure didn't join FW to impress upon others how uber-loyal and special my character in it is, I do it because I enjoy PvP and it made sense given what I say my character is: A Caldari military contractor. But all I detect all the time is that the only major concern for so many remains peer validation of some form so why even bother trying to put the effort in at building depth or complexity in external interaction if all that is desired is some kind of bland stereotypes for approval.
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So people complain that FW is terrible because there's no objectives and no conclusion to it etc. Then say that running highsec missions for hours on end doing the same repetitive missions while shooting at AI is their idea of interactive and engaging RP as a "loyalist"?
Okay then.
Why not just be honest and say you want to be recognized and validated as a loyalist while spinning ships in station then?
Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."
There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.
NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.
Except this is all bullshit, because Highsec PvE is NOT connected to the NPC gameworld and carries very little risk. The crises you are responding to are created out of whole cloth the moment you click 'Request Mission'. You then climb into your (virtually) safe blingmachine and are handheld as you soar your way to a cluster(fuck) of ships that are basically obsolete, underpowered and stupid.
After slaughtering supposed millions of bad guys in a battle (singlehandedly) you return to a very luke warm reception and the capsuleer equivalent of a small envelope full of fivers. The worlds-shattering crisis that you supposedly averted then despawns, never to be seen or referenced again.
They don't even count the ships you destroy. Whatever you wipe out is immediately replaced from stocks - despite the fact that only Sansha should really have that capacity. In fact Sansha can afford to support the losses from missions, ratting in Stain AND Incursions, quite comfortably.
You talk about the Forever War? What kind of dent has been put in Serpentis, Gurista, Sansha Blooder et al operations by High Sec Missioning?
Wait a minute...
I was merely saying that fighting for pve agents is no less loyalism than fighting in FW. I may have personal opinions (especially IC opinions) on why FW is pointless, but it doesnt mean that the people taking part in it are no loyalists... Actually they are.
And by definition you don't spin ships in station to work out your standings, unless you have a secret method to run missions while spinning my ships, because I would be rather interested tbh considering how boring missions are !
Well, this particular "fucked up hypocrite" finds that reading this thread has filled him with apathy.
Nooooo! Bah. This thread has been a disaster.
Look, Vikarion, you're not a fucked up hypocrite. I know what Lyn said is inflammatory, but I'm not calling you out in this thread. I'm looking for an opinion on it. I'll PM you and hopefully we can talk in-game or something. :/
What the hell inflammatory did I say ? o_O
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Because, let's admit it: one of the best things about being Caldari is that we ARE better than everyone else. ;)
*slips slightly out of context.
Told ya, Veik.
The shitslinging in this thread may continue. ;)
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Discussions about loyalism pretty much revolves around dick waving and epeens contests anyway Veik, so I couldnt agree more...
It's basically "i'm more loyal than you" "no u"...
Anyway, what Gwen said...
Well, the threat in a Militia Complex is NEVER the npcs. They are simply there to ensure you can't run a plex in a ship without guns anymore. The threat in complexes is, well, people. People who are sneaky. People who cheat. People who want you dead - however they have to do it.
They might do it by bringing a Dramiel to a Merlin fight. They might do it by jumping in with 19 friends. They might fly a small gang with links and drugs.
Anyway, talking about ship kills only really works Capsuleer vs Capsuleer, IMO. Nobody with any credibility talks about how many NPC (baseliner) battleships they smoked last week (way more than you militia dweebs!). Which is NOT to say that I don't nod and smile when people talk about running Internal Security ops for the Corps making them Loyalists. It absolutely does! It just means that they have to be really vague about what they've done. They can't go into details - unless they make them up. When Lowsec and FW pilots can talk about specific battles - hell, we can talk about individual kills, and back them up with an ingame report that corroborates our deeds.
Perhaps that makes missioners defensive. Perhaps it makes the rest of us unwarrantedly arrogant. I don't know the answer to that.
I don't think a lot of people actually claim they have killed millions of NPC battleships.. Except a few exceptions on the IGS from time to time... Who cares anyway ?
As you say we just have standings to prove that we deal in internal security contracts or whatever, and it's enough to my eyes to consider it as a good proof of loyalism, since it may be as pointless as FW considering the results ingame (nothing changes), but as I said it's still the NPC world and not independant capsuleers...
Noone can see Mak's 9.6 Caldari State standing and 9.95 Ishukone Watch standing, but they can see Joe FWarrior's Strike Commander standing from cloaky stab plexing. Further, because most players have incursions and L4 missions down to a science, there's very little risk and it seems there's at least a little bit of derision on the IGS toward people trying to use missions as a way to say, "Hey, I'm loyal!" "Killing baseliner ships? Please."
There are so many arguments in favour of why actually doing pve is one of the most significant proofs of loyalism... Killing capsuleer ships is pointless, they are immortal, and not even actually part of the enemy faction.
NPC ships are. Kill them and you directly kick a faction where it hurts, and that's not even speaking about the ensued standing penalties / gains in consequence. PvE is one of the only activities that are directly linked to the actual NPC world. The one that actually matters to me, but that's precisely it : it is because that is what matters to me, a roleplayer, that I will naturally add more emphasis on it in terms of significance.
Except this is all bullshit, because Highsec PvE is NOT connected to the NPC gameworld and carries very little risk. The crises you are responding to are created out of whole cloth the moment you click 'Request Mission'. You then climb into your (virtually) safe blingmachine and are handheld as you soar your way to a cluster(fuck) of ships that are basically obsolete, underpowered and stupid.
After slaughtering supposed millions of bad guys in a battle (singlehandedly) you return to a very luke warm reception and the capsuleer equivalent of a small envelope full of fivers. The worlds-shattering crisis that you supposedly averted then despawns, never to be seen or referenced again.
They don't even count the ships you destroy. Whatever you wipe out is immediately replaced from stocks - despite the fact that only Sansha should really have that capacity. In fact Sansha can afford to support the losses from missions, ratting in Stain AND Incursions, quite comfortably.
You talk about the Forever War? What kind of dent has been put in Serpentis, Gurista, Sansha Blooder et al operations by High Sec Missioning?
Yeah, but isn't that an OOC distinction? I mean, if you want to put more emphasis on FW, that's fine, it's completely your decision. But ICly, I don't think the Caldari State is rolling their eyes at people protecting their freight lines from the Guristas. They probably aren't doing that for the Gallente either, but I think we're kind of all applying OOC dramaz to an IC question. Either way, one less ship, pirate or capsuleer, is one less ship at that particular minute. It's less crew from that faction that they have to replace. It's one less ship in the ratio that determines who "rules" that part of space.
If anything, though, I'd say they at least have an agreement saying the Gallente can't wholesale invade Caldari space while pirates have no such agreement. On the other hand, it isn't like the Caldari have any reason to believe that and the Gallente are at least technically a bigger entity. On the other, other hand, the pirate factions do seem to have a lot of sleeper tech that can tip the balance.
I just don't really worry that much about what in particular people are killing. Loyalty is more of a character trait, and the combat can seem just as pointless whichever way you look at it. OOC it's a different story and the dick-comparing shall continue, but I don't know that it's a big distinction as far as the Caldari State is concerned.
Maybe it's just years of architecture school and practice making my pride completely bulletproof, but it's really hard for me to care about in-game accomplishments or even bother to look them up to verify whether someone is "legit." If they can RP it intelligently and intriguingly, I wouldn't care if someone said he was a grimy mercenary no matter where he spent his time in-game. I think the emphasis on game stats and mechanics to affect IC issues sometimes takes these proverbial gods-in ships and hardened starfighters and just makes them sound like raging video gamers.
I've tried to roll that into my RP a bit, but if anything, that's why FW kind of doesn't seem as interesting as an IC background to me. The RP bickering between factions and even within imperial groups from PVPers to everyone else very much sounds like video gamers bitching at one of the LAN parties we used to throw. Luckily, you've kind of avoided that by getting away from the pettiness of it all, but that's sort of my personal reason for not bothering to look up anyone's killboard. It seriously wouldn't make a difference if you hadn't killed anyone all year, Pieter's an interesting character and I think you're a pretty good roleplayer. I'd give you exactly the same reaction.
I would say that you shouldn't call yourself the master of starship gladiator dueling unless you're willing to get called out on it. Don't play a character that's smarter than you are, don't play a character more charming than you are, and don't play a character with better shipboard combat skills than you've got. There's a reason I play a pair of characters who are known for things that don't involve ship combat; you can't play a character that can invest more time into learning how to PVP than you do IRL.
Yes pretty much. I only refer to KBs and standings or whatever to "back up my claims", as they say. :roll:
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Maybe it's this combination of cold vodka and warm sauerkraut talking here but some days it just feels like the wild west in here, except the tumbleweeds drift by and all the gunslingers are inside the saloon discussing the finer points of whether to wear their six shooters on the left side or the right side, or if indeed it really is better to have duels at high noon. All the while complaining just how damn boring it can be out there on the frontier.
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Hell, you could make the case that a freighter hauling equipment to Caldari fleets farther from their home system would be loyalists, or scientists trying to build better weapons for them.
I wonder how much taxes and broker fees the Caldari Navy (Jita 4-4) has collected from LDIS's importing and exporting to Providence.
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Thing is, if all you're doing is running missions then from a certain IC perspective it's justifiable that nothing really separates your character from the countless thousands of other military contractors doing exactly the same. It's the same with doing industry or trade. The distinctions lie in how you portray your character, much like in the real world personality counts for a lot. The same could be said for doing PvP. Thing is for me, when people end up trying to portray a character that isn't congruent with what's happening in-game. If all you do is missions, industry, or trade then try to play some sort of hardened badass then don't get your panties in a knot if those other capsuleers who shoot other capsuleers look up your KB and go, "Oh really guy?" It's the same as if I tried to pass Veikitamo Gesakaarin as a philanthropist who cares about the children, then complained if people called her to account on her outlaw sec status and all the spaceships she's exploded in lowsec. Everything is a matter of perspective and you can't tell other players or characters how they should view your own.
The only qualifier of any importance to me is if your character does as they say and it doesn't matter if it's exploration, industry, trade, missions, or whatever else you want to do in the game. However, if you remain unsatisfied that your character isn't being treated the way you think they should be, then at least recognize that if there's going to be any pretense of realism in RP then of course there's going to be varying opinions and perspectives about them that can change over time -- that's a good thing.
The reason why I hate the very concept of loyalist as it applies to Eve is that it's always going to be a denial of subtlety and varied perspective. It just makes everything black and white, loyalist or not, that makes RP boring as fuck. I've never been concerned about it, but it always seems like every character I might interact with has players that want to be some kind of loyalist stereotype and get into some kind of who is more loyal recognition/popularity contest.
Screw that, I've worked long and hard to ensure there's enough legitimate excuses to loathe either myself, my characters, and the organization they are a part of to care all too much. I also sure didn't join FW to impress upon others how uber-loyal and special my character in it is, I do it because I enjoy PvP and it made sense given what I say my character is: A Caldari military contractor. But all I detect all the time is that the only major concern for so many remains peer validation of some form so why even bother trying to put the effort in at building depth or complexity in external interaction if all that is desired is some kind of bland stereotypes for approval.
I do think that people take a very Us v. Them mentality applied to lots of things in this game where that's not necessarily the case. Loyalty is a personality trait, but isn't something you'd have a number for in an in-character situation. I mean, if an Amarrian believes God will smite the Empire if he doesn't kill an Amarrian general every Tuesday, you could say he was a crazy, murderous sociopath, but he'd technically still be a loyal Amarrian, as he's acting out of a sense of duty.
Plenty of loyal people aren't doing their empires any favors, let's say.
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PvE characters can't talk about redex kills. We do way too many. Other than the encapsulating phrase "When you kill thousands of men a day, it never hurts to be polite", there's not much people say beyond "Security Contractor". When even miners kill 1000ppl a day via drones and belt rats.... yeah.
Even OOC players joke about how much these groups must incessantly fuck to keep the rooms packed full of ships. In EvE, IC and OOC, PvE is almost an anomaly. We work around it.
The only time you can take something specific from it is if someone else was involved, and yes it's story crafting. Like 'yeh sure I'll fly a Noctis for you gais' .. and bored you're watching your char siphoning up your own factions wrecks and go.. "Heh. This is kind of fucked up. I could make this specific incident a Thing." Or if there's a killmail, and only one kind is produced from PvE - lossmails.
PvE did NOT scale up -- for a reason. Cause EVE does not have a cap, and there are 10year old players It might not match up the way it used to, but easier than try to match something like that CCP left it the fuck alone. If you're an ISK rich 100mil SP and running missions don't shit on the 15mil SP toons trying it and yell "lol its EASY", cause that was you once and at one (and still now of a) point with no ISK help they used to be hard, the in game economy has changed and made it harder to afford ship replacements, just as eve-survival at one time prolly didn't exist. How old is that site anyway?
Anyway most everyone has their PvE battleship lossmail, it's just dependent on how old it is in the database. In fact, L4's used to require fleets of battleships. I know, this old can-waving vet is telling me so. Just cause your faggy Tengu can do it AFK don't tell me everyon else can. :)
Another good point - no pirate faction can prove they fight for the pirates. Fuckin' WORSE cause the Sansha will shoot at TS-F, Angels will shoot at Stillwater. Even other MMOs generally remove the agro tags from mobs in those situations once you have enough faction standing with a group (and usually apply it to another group.. but as everything but the Peddlers tend to spew hot death, there's nowhere else to put it. And sure there's CONCORD to shoot pirates, but for some reason the entirety of Imperial Space is the shittiest space to live in. The belts are shit, the PI is shit, the area is exhausted of natural resources p much. Only the weakest groups of the NPCs live there, and people can just use alts to move their shit to low. Not hard.)
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Sure, Kat thinks that Vikarion is a total patriot douche, but she'd make sweet, sweet love to him and every other patriot and practical before she'd give a Gallente model a kiss. Why? Because fuck them, that's why. We're family. Sure, I hate you and you hate me, but only when there isn't someone else around to really keep us busy.
This used to be one of my favorite things about the Caldari community on the IGS. We'd bitch and through lamps at each other up to the point when a non-caldari tried to weigh in on one side other. Then, without any actual coordination we'd become a unified front just like real Caldari would.
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There's an absence of an anti-caldari front at the moment. Everyone just hates on Diana Kim who even Caldari can frown upon these days. I do remember, when good old Hethler was still around, defending DK from frothing Summiteers, so yes, I agree Hamish.
Bottom line for me regarding the latest discussion: Don't claim (your character) to be anything else than what you deliver. Even with PvE content there are differences. Take lowsec/nullsec exploration, for example. The risks involved in this one are higher, if not by the NPC difficulty, then by the mere fact that you end up needing some survival skills useful against other capsuleers. When I've joined LDIS as a little returning nublet I've spent my majority of time in lowsec, dodging pirates - essentially fighting them without weapons, picking up some of those necessary survival skills. ;)
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Ask when people aren't forum warrioring how safe they feel in Empire as a carebear.
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Maybe it's this combination of cold vodka and warm sauerkraut talking here but some days it just feels like the wild west in here, except the tumbleweeds drift by and all the gunslingers are inside the saloon discussing the finer points of whether to wear their six shooters on the left side or the right side, or if indeed it really is better to have duels at high noon. All the while complaining just how damn boring it can be out there on the frontier.
Clearly the answer is on the side where your aim is best and high noon makes the shadows equal. Also, not all of us have time pieces.
Hell, you could make the case that a freighter hauling equipment to Caldari fleets farther from their home system would be loyalists, or scientists trying to build better weapons for them.
I wonder how much taxes and broker fees the Caldari Navy (Jita 4-4) has collected from LDIS's importing and exporting to Providence.
I would have to do the math for the last trip. Probably around 500M ISK spent on metamaterials (which are essentially only sold in Jita), so tax/broker calculations from there. I also try to avoid going to Jita (hive of villainy that it is).
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Thing is, if all you're doing is running missions then from a certain IC perspective it's justifiable that nothing really separates your character from the countless thousands of other military contractors doing exactly the same. It's the same with doing industry or trade. The distinctions lie in how you portray your character, much like in the real world personality counts for a lot. The same could be said for doing PvP. Thing is for me, when people end up trying to portray a character that isn't congruent with what's happening in-game. If all you do is missions, industry, or trade then try to play some sort of hardened badass then don't get your panties in a knot if those other capsuleers who shoot other capsuleers look up your KB and go, "Oh really guy?" It's the same as if I tried to pass Veikitamo Gesakaarin as a philanthropist who cares about the children, then complained if people called her to account on her outlaw sec status and all the spaceships she's exploded in lowsec. Everything is a matter of perspective and you can't tell other players or characters how they should view your own.
The only qualifier of any importance to me is if your character does as they say and it doesn't matter if it's exploration, industry, trade, missions, or whatever else you want to do in the game. However, if you remain unsatisfied that your character isn't being treated the way you think they should be, then at least recognize that if there's going to be any pretense of realism in RP then of course there's going to be varying opinions and perspectives about them that can change over time -- that's a good thing.
The reason why I hate the very concept of loyalist as it applies to Eve is that it's always going to be a denial of subtlety and varied perspective. It just makes everything black and white, loyalist or not, that makes RP boring as fuck. I've never been concerned about it, but it always seems like every character I might interact with has players that want to be some kind of loyalist stereotype and get into some kind of who is more loyal recognition/popularity contest.
Screw that, I've worked long and hard to ensure there's enough legitimate excuses to loathe either myself, my characters, and the organization they are a part of to care all too much. I also sure didn't join FW to impress upon others how uber-loyal and special my character in it is, I do it because I enjoy PvP and it made sense given what I say my character is: A Caldari military contractor. But all I detect all the time is that the only major concern for so many remains peer validation of some form so why even bother trying to put the effort in at building depth or complexity in external interaction if all that is desired is some kind of bland stereotypes for approval.
I do think that people take a very Us v. Them mentality applied to lots of things in this game where that's not necessarily the case. Loyalty is a personality trait, but isn't something you'd have a number for in an in-character situation. I mean, if an Amarrian believes God will smite the Empire if he doesn't kill an Amarrian general every Tuesday, you could say he was a crazy, murderous sociopath, but he'd technically still be a loyal Amarrian, as he's acting out of a sense of duty.
Plenty of loyal people aren't doing their empires any favors, let's say.
I'd agree but the thing is Eve godmodes your character off the bat to be a freelance capsuleer, a free agent under CONCORD, hell you even get factional items clearly saying, "You are free from any and all obligations" as a capsuleer playing Eve Online. Why the hell then is there always so much concern and angst sometimes from people if they're "Loyal enough to be a loyalist"? If your character really wanted the cred, or was in it for the hardcore duty they'd be a capsuleer enlisted directly by a Navy or Company - but they're not.
So why worry so much about it? It just doesn't make sense to me. You get the option to be creative and design your own reasons why your character is a capsuleer freelancer, but that isn't good enough? You need an official stamp of approval from a faction smacked on your head in order to RP now?
I mean damn, if I really wanted to I could probably have Veik be one of the most CCP backed "Caldari loyalist" characters given her leadership position and involvement with certain dev chars but I don't, because I honestly, seriously could not give a fuck. Even the times others have asserted she's a representative of, or directly involved with KK she has flatly and outright denied that she is in any way at all.
Why?
Because her background is that she became a freelance capsuleer to become a Kaalakiota non-attributable deniable asset resource and competitive intelligence agent.
Not a bloody, "Caldari Loyalist" that needs approval and validation to do what she does.
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There's an absence of an anti-caldari front at the moment. Everyone just hates on Diana Kim who even Caldari can frown upon these days. I do remember, when good old Hethler was still around, defending DK from frothing Summiteers, so yes, I agree Hamish.
Whenever someone posts something not so nice about Caldari Prime or the reasons for the age old war.... you tend to see the Caldari form up in a firing line pretty damn quick. Vikarion, Katrina, Veikitamo, Stitcher, even Diana... all standing shoulder to shoulder and facing front against the Imperialist Federation Dirty Pig-Dogs!
Of course, we sometimes snap their jowls at each other if someone gets too snuggly...
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I'd agree but the thing is Eve godmodes your character off the bat to be a freelance capsuleer, a free agent under CONCORD, hell you even get factional items clearly saying, "You are free from any and all obligations" as a capsuleer playing Eve Online. Why the hell then is there always so much concern and angst sometimes from people if they're "Loyal enough to be a loyalist"? If your character really wanted the cred, or was in it for the hardcore duty they'd be a capsuleer enlisted directly by a Navy or Company - but they're not.
So why worry so much about it? It just doesn't make sense to me. You get the option to be creative and design your own reasons why your character is a capsuleer freelancer, but that isn't good enough? You need an official stamp of approval from a faction smacked on your head in order to RP now?
I mean damn, if I really wanted to I could probably have Veik be one of the most CCP backed "Caldari loyalist" characters given her leadership position and involvement with certain dev chars but I don't, because I honestly, seriously could not give a fuck. Even the times others have asserted she's a representative of, or directly involved with KK she has flatly and outright denied that she is in any way at all.
Why?
Because her background is that she became a freelance capsuleer to become a Kaalakiota non-attributable deniable asset resource and competitive intelligence agent.
Not a bloody, "Caldari Loyalist" that needs approval and validation to do what she does.
Despite that this is still part of a massive derail from the intent of the OP, I have to say this is a pretty impressive post. It only helps solidify the nagging temptation for me to start playing Katrina a LOT more independent, rather than focusing on being a State shill even more.
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I'd agree but the thing is Eve godmodes your character off the bat to be a freelance capsuleer, a free agent under CONCORD, hell you even get factional items clearly saying, "You are free from any and all obligations" as a capsuleer playing Eve Online. Why the hell then is there always so much concern and angst sometimes from people if they're "Loyal enough to be a loyalist"? If your character really wanted the cred, or was in it for the hardcore duty they'd be a capsuleer enlisted directly by a Navy or Company - but they're not.
So why worry so much about it? It just doesn't make sense to me. You get the option to be creative and design your own reasons why your character is a capsuleer freelancer, but that isn't good enough? You need an official stamp of approval from a faction smacked on your head in order to RP now?
I mean damn, if I really wanted to I could probably have Veik be one of the most CCP backed "Caldari loyalist" characters given her leadership position and involvement with certain dev chars but I don't, because I honestly, seriously could not give a fuck. Even the times others have asserted she's a representative of, or directly involved with KK she has flatly and outright denied that she is in any way at all.
Why?
Because her background is that she became a freelance capsuleer to become a Kaalakiota non-attributable deniable asset resource and competitive intelligence agent.
Not a bloody, "Caldari Loyalist" that needs approval and validation to do what she does.
Despite that this is still part of a massive derail from the intent of the OP, I have to say this is a pretty impressive post. It only helps solidify the nagging temptation for me to start playing Katrina a LOT more independent, rather than focusing on being a State shill even more.
To me it's a lot like do you prefer to be the statue to be admired from afar, or do you prefer to be the sculptor with their own creative vision, purpose, and desires?
One to me is the loyalist paradigm and the other is a human being.
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I'd agree but the thing is Eve godmodes your character off the bat to be a freelance capsuleer, a free agent under CONCORD, hell you even get factional items clearly saying, "You are free from any and all obligations" as a capsuleer playing Eve Online. Why the hell then is there always so much concern and angst sometimes from people if they're "Loyal enough to be a loyalist"? If your character really wanted the cred, or was in it for the hardcore duty they'd be a capsuleer enlisted directly by a Navy or Company - but they're not.
So why worry so much about it? It just doesn't make sense to me. You get the option to be creative and design your own reasons why your character is a capsuleer freelancer, but that isn't good enough? You need an official stamp of approval from a faction smacked on your head in order to RP now?
I mean damn, if I really wanted to I could probably have Veik be one of the most CCP backed "Caldari loyalist" characters given her leadership position and involvement with certain dev chars but I don't, because I honestly, seriously could not give a fuck. Even the times others have asserted she's a representative of, or directly involved with KK she has flatly and outright denied that she is in any way at all.
Why?
Because her background is that she became a freelance capsuleer to become a Kaalakiota non-attributable deniable asset resource and competitive intelligence agent.
Not a bloody, "Caldari Loyalist" that needs approval and validation to do what she does.
Despite that this is still part of a massive derail from the intent of the OP, I have to say this is a pretty impressive post. It only helps solidify the nagging temptation for me to start playing Katrina a LOT more independent, rather than focusing on being a State shill even more.
Well that's part of what I told you in my first reply (wall of text), we all are playing freelances, so people pointing fingers that "U NO LOYALIST" might slightly look like hypocrites...
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Any "Capsuleer Loyalist" has either chains of reason or roads of motive to do so.
... think about that.
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I think maybe the word "loyal" is being narrowed down to something that's very specific. As an example, I would say that Constantin is a very loyal Amarrian. He is exceptionally devoted to the religion, of course, but also to the government. He still holds the people who ordained him and gave him his mandate in high regard and what he does, he does for what he sees as the greater good of the Empire. In a way, he's up to his eyebrows in his own little Reclaiming, throwing himself passionately into his work.
With that said, not only is Constantin not known for high end pirate hunting or FW, he's also a VERY divisive figure in the church (at least that's how I've played him). He's a multiculturalist who believes that the best way to bring the Word to the cluster is to also learn from them and let people outside the Empire have a hand in reading and translating Scripture. His "diocese" is a loose confederation of believers and churches who he tends to curb the heretical excesses of, but otherwise tends to allow to do whatever they feel is right. That means he sanctions Matari churches that weave Scriptural doctrine into pre-existing tribal customs. He is constantly taking a somewhat left-leaning stance for his people, often bringing up the fallibility of some Holders and often supporting the inclusion of ideas and practices from outside the Empire that seem to work well. For him, it works, though. His ministry seems to be fairly effective and he's well liked even by a fair number of Matari and Gallente.
On that note, the last four attempts on his life weren't in the "dangerous" areas of his diocese, but in the actually dangerous area of the Amarr Empire itself. His ministry divides people not just conservative and liberal, but on a fundamental fault line of whether the Amarr is a race of people defined by birth or a church of people defined by faith. While he doesn't elicit a homicidal rage from anyone but the most insular Holders, he definitely has more Amarrian enemies than not. His most wild supporters are there, too. People either want him made a Metropolitan Bishop or Cardinal, or they want him defrocked and tried for heresy. Part of the reason there's no motion on either front is how deeply controversial he is in the Empire itself.
All in all, though, he's a "loyal" Amarrian by the definition of the word. The situation is just a lot more complicated than that...
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I'd agree but the thing is Eve godmodes your character off the bat to be a freelance capsuleer, a free agent under CONCORD, hell you even get factional items clearly saying, "You are free from any and all obligations" as a capsuleer playing Eve Online. Why the hell then is there always so much concern and angst sometimes from people if they're "Loyal enough to be a loyalist"? If your character really wanted the cred, or was in it for the hardcore duty they'd be a capsuleer enlisted directly by a Navy or Company - but they're not.
So why worry so much about it? It just doesn't make sense to me. You get the option to be creative and design your own reasons why your character is a capsuleer freelancer, but that isn't good enough? You need an official stamp of approval from a faction smacked on your head in order to RP now?
I mean damn, if I really wanted to I could probably have Veik be one of the most CCP backed "Caldari loyalist" characters given her leadership position and involvement with certain dev chars but I don't, because I honestly, seriously could not give a fuck. Even the times others have asserted she's a representative of, or directly involved with KK she has flatly and outright denied that she is in any way at all.
Why?
Because her background is that she became a freelance capsuleer to become a Kaalakiota non-attributable deniable asset resource and competitive intelligence agent.
Not a bloody, "Caldari Loyalist" that needs approval and validation to do what she does.
I agree with the overall gist of this post. For example, much of what Kor does IC serves to benefit either Ishukone or the State or both; it should be noted he has no obligation whatsoever to do deeds that benefit such entities, he does what he does because he cares for the Caldari people and the Caldari State. However, what many people can't see (or fail to realize :insert leet sekrit biznis jpg here:) is that many of his actions contain one or more ulterior motives. Motives that further his own hidden agenda. I.E. yeah that anti-Provist rally in Malkalen? Yeah that had more purpose than to express distaste for the Heth regime.
As for the whole "loyalist" debacle, I think some people are making it a bigger deal than what it is. I view it as a mere label to help identify and connect with people, nothing more. I get the feeling that some people have an overwhelming fear of being labeled as such, when really it does not matter if you are or not. If you want your character to be considered as such, then cool. If not, then no need to get your panties tied in a knot over being considered one.
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Despite that this is still part of a massive derail from the intent of the OP, I have to say this is a pretty impressive post. It only helps solidify the nagging temptation for me to start playing Katrina a LOT more independent, rather than focusing on being a State shill even more.
TBH, I can't agree. Veik doesn't need to try to look like a loyalist because her hard-ass stance (which I fucking love, don't get me wrong) has pretty much established that, along with her forum-fu, which is at master level. What I'd love to see from you and I-RED is some actually not-entirely-puppies-and-kittens stuff, but still in line with Ishukone. Like, say, exporting TCMCs for recreational use to Intaki. Or selling stuff to certain Angel-aligned folks, since the Caldari seem to do that on the side. Or slipping extra Insorum to some rebels in Amarrian space - for a nice price, of course. You know, a little less Microsoft and a little more ExxonMobil.
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What I'm distilling from this is basically; play your character as they are to you, and let the universe derive its own opinions. Don't try to portray a title, portray a person.
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Despite that this is still part of a massive derail from the intent of the OP, I have to say this is a pretty impressive post. It only helps solidify the nagging temptation for me to start playing Katrina a LOT more independent, rather than focusing on being a State shill even more.
TBH, I can't agree. Veik doesn't need to try to look like a loyalist because her hard-ass stance (which I fucking love, don't get me wrong) has pretty much established that, along with her forum-fu, which is at master level. What I'd love to see from you and I-RED is some actually not-entirely-puppies-and-kittens stuff, but still in line with Ishukone. Like, say, exporting TCMCs for recreational use to Intaki. Or selling stuff to certain Angel-aligned folks, since the Caldari seem to do that on the side. Or slipping extra Insorum to some rebels in Amarrian space - for a nice price, of course. You know, a little less Microsoft and a little more ExxonMobil.
Problem is, all the examples you mentioned you simply wouldn't see, because I-RED doing such things publicly would be frowned upon by either our mother corporation, the Caldari State, or both. As a member of I-RED, I feel no need to reveal all our backroom deals with the entire cluster, and I like it that way; it will most likely stay that way, too.
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Despite that this is still part of a massive derail from the intent of the OP, I have to say this is a pretty impressive post. It only helps solidify the nagging temptation for me to start playing Katrina a LOT more independent, rather than focusing on being a State shill even more.
TBH, I can't agree. Veik doesn't need to try to look like a loyalist because her hard-ass stance (which I fucking love, don't get me wrong) has pretty much established that, along with her forum-fu, which is at master level. What I'd love to see from you and I-RED is some actually not-entirely-puppies-and-kittens stuff, but still in line with Ishukone. Like, say, exporting TCMCs for recreational use to Intaki. Or selling stuff to certain Angel-aligned folks, since the Caldari seem to do that on the side. Or slipping extra Insorum to some rebels in Amarrian space - for a nice price, of course. You know, a little less Microsoft and a little more ExxonMobil.
Problem is, all the examples you mentioned you simply wouldn't see, because I-RED doing such things publicly would be frowned upon by either our mother corporation, the Caldari State, or both. As a member of I-RED, I feel no need to reveal all our backroom deals with the entire cluster, and I like it that way; it will most likely stay that way, too.
I agree. The problem with being that transparent for the sake of "edgy" (eyeroll) is that it removes both a lot of the sense of realism, and layers of intrigue and trust/distrust that make for truly great RP within the group that actually matters to the player. I, for one, don't toss plot hammers around willy nilly for that reason, and for several others. Frankly, characters who a player doesn't do anything with save trade barbs just aren't worth considering when it comes to that. It's the core group that matters.