Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Gottii on 26 Aug 2010, 18:16
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Alright, I'm writing here to get some people's views on capsuleers and mortality, specifically what happens if a capsuleer dies outside of the pod.
From what Ive read on the Chronicles, and from what Ive gleaned from PF, in particular the scientific articles regarding such things, my take is that if a capsuleer dies outside of his pod, he's dead. Thats it. No clone jump. No resurrection. "He's dead Jim".
However, a lot of people seem to play it that if you die outside of the pod, then you're still resurrected and you continue as if you we're podded.
Reading the scientific article regarding clone jumping, it mentions that brain scans are only really feasible inside the pod. (DUST will change that in interesting ways Im guessing, but we dont know how exactly, and Im betting its going to be a way that capsuleers cant use) Brain scans outside the pod almost always end in failure.
(Burning Life spoilers)
At the end of the novel, two characters confront a capsuleer in the flesh, after he leaves his pod. And they threaten to kill the capsuleer, beat him to death. And he is afraid for his life. This would indicate that if you die outside of your pod, you're dead.
Im curious how people play this, and what the general consensus is on this. Thoughts, opinions, etc?
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Players use the concept of "Soft Clones", or clones that have an archive of your brain data up until a certain point. This is different from Capsuleer cloning because that is in real time, down to the second of your death in terms of information.
It's a bit of a gray area and tends to be a wall banger if over used too much. I haven't seen a decisive ruling against it one way or another.
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Players use the concept of "Soft Clones", or clones that have an archive of your brain data up until a certain point. This is different from Capsuleer cloning because that is in real time, down to the second of your death in terms of information.
It's a bit of a gray area and tends to be a wall banger if over used too much. I haven't seen a decisive ruling against it one way or another.
But how does one accomplish that, transfer information into a backup clone, when the act of scanning a brain to transfer the data to a new clone causes severe brain damage in the original clone? Youre just trading one clone for another?
And, btw, not trying to be a jerk or whatever, just trying to get peoples views on this
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Players use the concept of "Soft Clones", or clones that have an archive of your brain data up until a certain point. This is different from Capsuleer cloning because that is in real time, down to the second of your death in terms of information.
It's a bit of a gray area and tends to be a wall banger if over used too much. I haven't seen a decisive ruling against it one way or another.
But how does one accomplish that, transfer information into a backup clone, when the act of scanning a brain to transfer the data to a new clone causes severe brain damage in the original clone? Youre just trading one clone for another?
And, btw, not trying to be a jerk or whatever, just trying to get peoples views on this
I believe the method is, off hand, that by taking the time to slowly copy the brain's information it doesn't flash burn it and destroy the gray matter. If there is a solid canon method for it, I don't know what to recall for it.
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Im curious how people play this, and what the general consensus is on this. Thoughts, opinions, etc?
I play it so that for a capsuleer a death outside pod is permanent. I don't know if there is a general consensus about it, though. ;)
In my opinion PF seems to indicate permanent death is how it goes.
Factual arguments aside, the possibility of permanent death for rich/powerful people (and their immediate circle) creates potential for what I personally consider to be more interesting stories. But that is very much a matter of taste. :)
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Logic would dictate that if you're not connected to your pod, then if you.. Welp. Bye. Unless of course you have a 3G connection attached to one of your ports at all times keeping in contact with the cloning stations. (iClone?)
I tried to find something about this a while ago when I did a little story with Usagi. She got all shot up while having a warrant served on her (some cops mean it when they say 'stop or I'll shoot). I couldn't find any PF that said either way, so I made what I thought was the proper assumption that she would die since she was out of pod.
The only way the doctors were able to save her was that they rushed her to a jump cloning station and got her connected and moved her consciousness into a healthy body.
The concept of a soft clone... To me that's like an entirely different person. At least with the clone after being podded you have all the memories leading up to your 'death'. Soft clone seems more like a doppelganger.
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I did find this quote in the "Cloning" section of the scientific articles.
"In early tests, the subjects were left with permanent and severe brain damage after being scanned, a fact that is impossible to escape. But as the person is about to die in any case, this unfortunate side effect has little consequences."
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Personally I always considered the idea of 'Soft Clones' to be a total copout. It tends to be used as a 'character re-set' button if the player RPs themselves into a corner they can't think a way out of.
It just seems like a really cheap plot device to me, so I never use them... As a result if someone were to shoot Kim in the face (without godmodding of course before anyone gets any ideas :P) then she would die for real. I would biomass her and make a new character.
I much prefer the idea that while these immortal capsuleers we play as are a force of unstoppable terror when safely in the confines of their pods, they are just as squishy and vulnerable as anyone else outside of them. This is why the areas inside stations where Capsuleers hang out are segregated from the general public, as described in The Burning Life.
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Players use the concept of "Soft Clones", or clones that have an archive of your brain data up until a certain point. This is different from Capsuleer cloning because that is in real time, down to the second of your death in terms of information.
It's a bit of a gray area and tends to be a wall banger if over used too much. I haven't seen a decisive ruling against it one way or another.
But how does one accomplish that, transfer information into a backup clone, when the act of scanning a brain to transfer the data to a new clone causes severe brain damage in the original clone? Youre just trading one clone for another?
And, btw, not trying to be a jerk or whatever, just trying to get peoples views on this
The act of cloning into a jump clone doesn't destroy the brain of the original. That is where the idea of soft scans come from - the idea that in addition to immediate emergency scans (which practically have a legal obligation to kill the patient, and thus can use a more destructive scan), you have other options of brain scanning available if you have time to put aside for it. The chronicle One Man Too Many still describes the jump cloning process as taking only "a heartbeat," but in comparison to the lightning-fast emergency scans a heartbeat would surely be an eternity.
Soft cloning is conjecture, but it's based on the fact that jump cloning must use a different process than emergency cloning. If that process is available for clone jumps, surely it would be available for other reasons - such as for making backups. Even if it's not, it would likely be a common safety measure in the cloning business to take a backup of the received data before pouring it into a head , in case of contamination for any reason (just like how transporters in Star Trek save the pattern of everyone sent and received, in case something gets messed up). Thus, it's become fanon, if not implied canon, that a capsuleer can have backups - be it specially made backups produced in a soft cloning session, or by-product backups generated during normal cloning.
And if for some strange reason no-one is taking backups, there would be jump clones to revive. Jump clones are not destroyed when you leave them. The brain scan obviously doesn't fry your grey matter, as a clone retains its brain implants - they would simply be placed in a state of suspended animation and await a transfer of an upcoming mental imprint. If a capsuleer dies, and if there are no software backups, surely a jump clone could be rolled out of storage?
The concept of a soft clone... To me that's like an entirely different person. At least with the clone after being podded you have all the memories leading up to your 'death'. Soft clone seems more like a doppelganger.
All clones, no matter how close the memory match, is a different entity from the person that died (it's kinda why the Amarr have an issue with the whole thing). Clones revived from a backup would simply be clones of an earlier state. It's not that much of a difference.
All that said, reviving a capsuleer from a backup would likely involve a big mess of legal wrangling. Luckily, we can hire legions of lawyers with fractions of our wallets!
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The brain scan obviously doesn't fry your grey matter, as a clone retains its brain implants - they would simply be placed in a state of suspended animation and await a transfer of an upcoming mental imprint. If a capsuleer dies, and if there are no software backups, surely a jump clone could be rolled out of storage?
That wouldn't work - if a Capsuleer dies and there are no software backups, you have no brain scan to wake the JC up with.
Jump Cloning effectively transfers the conciousness of the 'live' brain into the JC brain. Whether it actually transfers conciousness or if it simply puts the live brain into a coma, takes a scan and wakes up the JC brain with that scan is left unambiguous. The point is that it still requires a live brain to work - you can't wake up a JC on it's own. This is also why it's impossible to control more than one body at a time.
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The brain scan obviously doesn't fry your grey matter, as a clone retains its brain implants - they would simply be placed in a state of suspended animation and await a transfer of an upcoming mental imprint. If a capsuleer dies, and if there are no software backups, surely a jump clone could be rolled out of storage?
That wouldn't work - if a Capsuleer dies and there are no software backups, you have no brain scan to wake the JC up with.
Jump Cloning effectively transfers the conciousness of the 'live' brain into the JC brain. Whether it actually transfers conciousness or if it simply puts the live brain into a coma, takes a scan and wakes up the JC brain with that scan is left unambiguous. The point is that it still requires a live brain to work - you can't wake up a JC on it's own. This is also why it's impossible to control more than one body at a time.
Brain scans being written into clone brains aren't transfers of consciousness. They're transfers of memories and experiences that to an outside observer look, act and feel just as if it was a transfer of consciousness. It's a copy of a brain, installed in another brain. To my knowledge there is nothing indicating that the jump cloning process removes anything from the original brain and moves it to the receiving one, or vice versa - it's simply a copy-paste job.
The reason we can't leave the left-behind bodies walking around (as I see it) is twofold:
1. For legal reasons. Having two people with the same legal identity running around would be a clusterfuck for local and CONCORD legislature to keep track of and regulate.
2. For continuity of mind. The reasons the left-behind body is held dormant is so that the mind of the faraway jump clone can be re-merged with the original brain when the capsuleer chooses to jump back. If both are left to roam around, their minds will go in divergent directions and make it difficult if not impossible to merge the two.
So: you could wake up the jump clone, because there is already a copy of you in it, waiting to wake up.
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It just seems like a really cheap plot device to me, so I never use them... As a result if someone were to shoot Kim in the face (without godmodding of course before anyone gets any ideas :P) then she would die for real. I would biomass her and make a new character.
Maybe I'm weak willed, but I could never go through with that, if I ever biomass Nikita, it'll be because I've basically given up on life irl. I have a really odd relationship with my character in that regard. Do I get too attached? definitely.
On that same note though, I think I might be able to stomach that (emphasis on might) if CCP included a way to dump gained SP from an old character into a new one. But as it stands, if I ever lost Nikita, I'd feel like I just took almost three years of my life, and erased it. It would probably kill me inside to a degree.
So yes, I use softclones, and I justify it a bit that Nikita is a heavy duty tinkerer, and has basically installed signal readers in her brain, to actively record her thoughts as she's thinking them, there's still some memory loss if she's killed, and there are rp consequences to her being killed, but that's how I roll it.
If that makes people not want to RP with me *shrug* plenty of folks out there who will.
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To my knowledge there is nothing indicating that the jump cloning process removes anything from the original brain and moves it to the receiving one, or vice versa - it's simply a copy-paste job.
I am aware of this, and I did mention in my post that to my knowledge it's left unambiguous whether that copy/paste of the subject's brain pattern onto the JC contains a person's 'conciousness' or not. If it does, then it's a full transfer of conciousness. If it does not, then it is simply the organic components of the JC brain fabricating it's own conciousness from the patterns that are transferred to it from the live clone. To my knowledge there is (as of yet) no PF which clarifies whether it does or does not - if there is then please point me to it, because it's probably something I should read! Either way though, the process has the outward appearance of transferring conciousness, even if it does not do that from a technical perspective.
The reason we can't leave the left-behind bodies walking around (as I see it) is twofold:
1. For legal reasons. Having two people with the same legal identity running around would be a clusterfuck for local and CONCORD legislature to keep track of and regulate.
2. For continuity of mind. The reasons the left-behind body is held dormant is so that the mind of the faraway jump clone can be re-merged with the original brain when the capsuleer chooses to jump back. If both are left to roam around, their minds will go in divergent directions and make it difficult if not impossible to merge the two.
The first reason doesn't hold water as there are Capsuleers out there in low / nullsec who are a law unto themselves and don't give a rat's ass about CONCORD or regulations other than those they make for themselves.
The second reason is a good one until you consider the above... I'm sure that if it were technically possible there would be loads of capsuleers who would happily have multiple permanently active copies of themselves running around furthering their collective goals with no intention of re-merging. It makes sense from an efficiency standpoint - why get a friend to light a cyno field for your supercarrier when you can do it yourself?
Of course the chances of someone in that position losing their grip on reality are huge, but then since when have the big nullsec alliances ever let a little thing like keeping one's sanity get in the way of acquiring more power? :P
This leads me to believe that there must be some in-universe technical limitation of the JC process to stop that happening.
When all is said and done though, both our viewpoints are valid until there is some PF written that contradicts one or the other.
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When all is said and done though, both our viewpoints are valid until there is some PF written that contradicts one or the other.
Agreed.
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Maybe I'm weak willed, but I could never go through with that, if I ever biomass Nikita, it'll be because I've basically given up on life irl. I have a really odd relationship with my character in that regard. Do I get too attached? definitely.
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If that makes people not want to RP with me *shrug* plenty of folks out there who will.
Oh I totally understand your view on that and likewise it is not an option I would consider lightly. I wouldn't kill her off on a whim, and certainly not without a damn good reason for doing so. It does mean I have to RP her a bit more cautiously than those who use the soft clone safety net, but no moreso than anyone with a normal sense of self-preservation would act. It just means I can't do the whole Space Marine thing with her, which isn't much of a bad thing imo.
Also just to clarify, even though I think soft clones are trite and I do shake my head in disappointment when people use them as a 'get out of jail free card', I wouldn't flatly refuse to RP with someone just because they use them. I just wouldn't use them myself.
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Yea I'd for sure say getting caught outside your pod is basically getting caught with your pants down to Capsuleers, you enter a state where you're pretty much just as mortal and squishy as everyone else in the universe. I imagine there are some form of 'backup' clone systems but I'd say they'd be pretty unreliable. In my mind they'd be 'make a clone, keep it in stasis or whatever until a certain perimeter is met (in this case I'd say 'flat lineing' and the loss of bodily functions) and then it gets released.
I'd say then the problem with that is it's only as skilled as whenever the backup was made, and unless you're a blend of paranoid insane and super rich, you can't keep updating it constantly. Honestly it'd make a good plot, I'd say, Capsuleer gets shot in the face, comes back a week or so later but seems to have just plain forgotten the last year of his life.
So yea, maybe a guy with a huge amount of connections and cash could find 'immortality', as long as he doesn't mind constantly losing major chunks of his life if he gets shot outside the pod. Of course, his enemies could pretty easily exploit that too. "Hey buddy, what, enemies? Nah we signed that peace treaty with our syndicates, remember? Musta happened after you made this backup huh?"
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Two things in PF
[spoiler]In the Empyrean Age, one of the major characters is a man who is a clone that is animated without the right mind state.[/spoiler]
This suggests a clone could be activated without a scan, but would require quite a lot of therapy to cope with the amnesia.
[spoiler]In the Amarr epic arc, a clone is created using a stored brain pattern, from someone executed by brain-scanning.[/spoiler]
It is possible to store a mind state, and use it to activate a clone, after a period of time.
Therefore, I suspect that with the right facilities (which may/may not be entirely legal), you could scan a person, creating a clone plus a long term storable mind state, that could then be used as a backup, although memories of events since then would vanish.
Also, Jovians, Enheduanny, the Borker, etc. etc
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Soft cloning is conjecture, but it's based on the fact that jump cloning must use a different process than emergency cloning.
Does it? I have so far found only one kind of cloning process described (the burning scan), so I have assumed the the simplest explanation fits: The same cloning process is used for both emergency and jump cloning.
Implants being destroyed by emergency cloning but not by jump cloning can be explained by the damage to implants coming from pod breach and being exposed to space, instead of the scan process.
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I think it is also that there is a brain left behind in a jump clone that can be re-inhabited. If a destructive burn turned the brain to slurry, you wouldn't be able to jump back into that clone, on would think.
I know I have used the 'soft-scan' idea here and there, more in fiction than in RP. I think that there is sufficient plausibility there, from PF, that I'm comfortable with using it until CCP writes something to the contrary.
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Soft cloning is conjecture, but it's based on the fact that jump cloning must use a different process than emergency cloning.
Does it? I have so far found only one kind of cloning process described (the burning scan), so I have assumed the the simplest explanation fits: The same cloning process is used for both emergency and jump cloning.
Implants being destroyed by emergency cloning but not by jump cloning can be explained by the damage to implants coming from pod breach and being exposed to space, instead of the scan process.
As Silver pointed out, it's not so much that the implants remain, but that you can transfer back into the same brain - evidently still in good condition.
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I think it is also that there is a brain left behind in a jump clone that can be re-inhabited. If a destructive burn turned the brain to slurry, you wouldn't be able to jump back into that clone, on would think.
The cloning PF describes that brains of emergency clones are constructed, so a burned out brain in a jump clone would only be hinder jumping until it is replaced by a new "blank" one. And one can't clone jump except every 23 hours, right? ;)
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I'm not sure that swapping in fresh, new brains that implants are then transplanted into is more likely than there being a non-destructive scan that leaves both brain and implants intact for reuse.
I suppose that both are plausible enough (eve-tech-wise).
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I think it is also that there is a brain left behind in a jump clone that can be re-inhabited. If a destructive burn turned the brain to slurry, you wouldn't be able to jump back into that clone, on would think.
Actually, I think this is an assumption, one that I dont think the text supports. Its not explicit that we jump back into the same clone, just that we jump back into the same location.
Clone bodies, for capsuleers, are quite disposable. They're also quite recyclable, being made from just about any bio-mass around. (preferably human cadavers, but I assume its like making sausage, we dont want to know what goes on).
So, heres my assumption regarding clone jump, that, given everything we've read, scanning a brain kills the brain. So, heres my argument on how clone jumping works, followed by some textual backing for it.
If you want to clone jump, you hook yourself up to the neural scanners, and, basaed on what we hear about, the neural scan kills that clone's brain during the scanning and subsequent jump. Your consciousness, now on the other side of the cluster in a fresh clone, go on your merry way.
Now, back in your old clone, they begin to reprocess your dead clone. Within 24 hrs, they recreate a new clone from biomass, and you're free to jump back into it.
Keep in mind, that to jump clone, you need a high standing with a corporation, you need facilities. And what are those facilities called? In a supercap ship, they're called Clone Vat Bays.
Not "Clone Storage", Clone Vats. A vat isnt someplace you keep a clone in storage. It is a place to turn clone biomass into new clones.
The only handwaving in this explanation is that your implants are removed from the dead clone, and placed into the pre-living clone, which isn't unreasonable given that you need to have access to jump clone medical facilities of a station or supercap to make a clone jump.
Now, when you jump back to your old location, you're jumping back into a new clone, one with a new brain.
The Chronicles actually indirectly supports this explanation. If you read One Man Too Many, it is about an insanely rich head of a megacorp clone jumping back home. Here is one of the first lines.
"Pier Ancru slowly came to, relishing in the feeling of energy returning to his previously limp body. He flexed a few of his muscles, they felt familiar, yet he knew this was the first time they were under his direct control. "
Emphasis mine. Basically, the main character is clone jumping back home, but he's jumping back into a new clone, one hes never directly controlled before. And if he's jumping back to his home, why isn't he jumping back into his prior clone? The straight line answer is that its brain is fried, because neural scan seems to always kill the brain.
Given the PF, I think its safe to assume that brain scanning always does kill the brain.
I think if there is a "soft clone" alternative, given PF, its based off of uploading ones thoughts into a computer, and then downloading it into a clone. Though, that seems to be extremely rare and noteworthy.
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Except that we know that clones are expensive. Clearly there is something of a hand-wave when it comes to setting up the JCs in the first place, but your theory would extend that to a fresh entire clone each time a jump was made. Though this is one of those places where game mechanics are probably different than what the 'reality' in the world of Eve would be, so I'm not sure how valid the criticism is.
In the pod the scan has to be quick, because if it wasn't the brain would be too damaged - from either the exposure or the neurotoxin. While it's possible that the destructiveness is intrinsic to the scanning process at any speed, I think it is also plausible that it is a symptom of the requirements of the particular function that the burner plays in a pod. I don't see anything that suggests that they can't do a scan that is non-destructive and more than sufficient in a laboratory setting with a larger amount of time.
Basically, like I said, I find the whole thing 'grey' enough that I feel comfortable playing it with soft-clones being possible until there is more PF one way or another.
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Except that we know that clones are expensive. Clearly there is something of a hand-wave when it comes to setting up the JCs in the first place, but your theory would extend that to a fresh entire clone each time a jump was made. Though this is one of those places where game mechanics are probably different than what the 'reality' in the world of Eve would be, so I'm not sure how valid the criticism is.
In the pod the scan has to be quick, because if it wasn't the brain would be too damaged - from either the exposure or the neurotoxin. While it's possible that the destructiveness is intrinsic to the scanning process at any speed, I think it is also plausible that it is a symptom of the requirements of the particular function that the burner plays in a pod. I don't see anything that suggests that they can't do a scan that is non-destructive and more than sufficient in a laboratory setting with a larger amount of time.
Basically, like I said, I find the whole thing 'grey' enough that I feel comfortable playing it with soft-clones being possible until there is more PF one way or another.
Well, again, I return to this quote from the Scientific Article on neural scanning.
"In early tests, the subjects were left with permanent and severe brain damage after being scanned, a fact that is impossible to escape. But as the person is about to die in any case, this unfortunate side effect has little consequences."
That seems fairly explicit. They used neural scannings in pods about to blow up because scanning the brain always kills it, not as a byproduct of being in a pod.
And yes, cloning is very expensive. But so are a hundred other things that capsuleers purchase and sell on a daily basis, that never make it to our ISK journals. (i.e. security, homes, Interbus, crews, our cool wardrobes, etc) If we can purchase all of that without so much as a dent, I suppose we could afford the cost of a new clone every time we jump.
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My point was that the tests might have been with the 'fast' scanner. It may be that the fast scan always causes the damage, but that isn't relevant when talking about use in the pod, where the main thing is just that it is fast.
I think that that would, then, not preclude a slower, non-destructive method.
Anyway, I don't think this is a difference of opinion that is likely to be resolved without new PF from CCP.
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Actually, I think this is an assumption, one that I dont think the text supports. Its not explicit that we jump back into the same clone, just that we jump back into the same location.
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The only handwaving in this explanation is that your implants are removed from the dead clone, and placed into the pre-living clone, which isn't unreasonable given that you need to have access to jump clone medical facilities of a station or supercap to make a clone jump.
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"Pier Ancru slowly came to, relishing in the feeling of energy returning to his previously limp body. He flexed a few of his muscles, they felt familiar, yet he knew this was the first time they were under his direct control. "
Emphasis mine. Basically, the main character is clone jumping back home, but he's jumping back into a new clone, one hes never directly controlled before. And if he's jumping back to his home, why isn't he jumping back into his prior clone? The straight line answer is that its brain is fried, because neural scan seems to always kill the brain.
1. The assumption that the cloning company can extract brain implants and put them into a fresh body does clearly not gel with the fact that the act of removing a brain implant seems to destroy it, or at least render it useless. Beyond the hard/soft scanner debate, there is nothing suggesting that the body we jump back to isn't the same body that we jumped away from. If they are kept in clone vats in the meantime, it's because that's a tried and proven method for keeping unconscious bodies alive and healthy.
2. Is it not possible that Mr. Ancru started his clone jumping tour from a location that wasn't his home? I know I've flown around setting up clones in places I frequent so that I can jump to them whenever I want - so it's perfectly reasonable that Mr. Ancru had a fresh clone installed in his home system (and in Sizamod, and wherever else he thought he might like to go), then went somewhere else, and started his clone jumping circuit from outside his home system. That would be why he has now clone jumped back home, into a fresh body.
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Also keep in mind that the scientific article on cloning is one of the first background pieces of EVE fiction written. It is older than jump clones, so that article is no longer completely "up to date" on the technology of cloning.
Theodicy features a Jovian who dies outside of a pod and then returns later. He has no memories of when he died, so clearly the clone was made beforehand. Yes, the Jove have more advanced tech than the rest of the cluster, but Theodicy takes place about 200 years before the current game time. So to believe there have been no advances in clone tech since then among the general populace is silly.
Secondly, there's an EON story where a Gallente movie director's clone is activated by his neglected wife to take his place. Since the director had been cloned before, there's no way to verify which is the "real" one, so he's taken away by CONCORD as a "rogue clone" or something of the sort. True, EON exists in a PF gray area (as some stuff that has come out of EON [such as Orphyx] clearly is canon, but others probably isn't), but it's worth noting.
In the Empyrean Age, when Otro Gariushi is talking to his sister right before the mothership impacts, he says something along the lines of "all my clones are in this station" after his sister says he can just be cloned. If he would be unable to clone outside the pod, such a statement would be wholly unnecessary.
The reason the capsuleer might be worried at the end of the Burning Age can easily be explained. He's not worried he's going to be killed. He's worried that he'll be killed and no one will know to activate the clone. It's pretty established that CONCORD takes a dim view on having two clones of a person walking around, so it's unlikely the clone station will go "Ok, he's been missing for a few days, fire that bitch up." They'll likely just sit on the clone until their contract expires, then dump it, unless they get proof he's dead.
As for DUST, it's likely that the new cloning tech will be cheap cloning that can explain why the soldiers are constantly cloned instead of just grabbing one of the huddled masses, handing him a gun, and telling him to go. And that instant mind scans can be taken outside of the pod, though from what CCP has hinted at, it'll be less of a "full" scan that the capsuleers have access to and something more quick and dirty; preserving the skills but letting things like memories and personalty lapse a bit.
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I really should get myself the back issues of EON.
There was also the Jovian guy that was in the teleporter accident, and they reassembled him from tens of thousands of tiny pieces sprayed across the entire cluster.
Those wacky Jovians.
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Yeah, Otro Garuishi is one...and from Slow Disease...
"No. At least, not technically. Look, with the kind of resources you have at your disposal, there's no reason you couldn't live a full, natural lifespan. This never has to reach stage four. But — and this is a large 'but' — the deposits that have already developed interfere with brain mapping. They corrupt the results in unpredictable ways."
"I can never clone?"
"If you were to ever attempt to clone, there's a strong probability of permanent and irreversible neural damage. The worst-case scenario, and not an unlikely one, is that your new body would just never wake up."
What is Heth referring to here?
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1. The assumption that the cloning company can extract brain implants and put them into a fresh body does clearly not gel with the fact that the act of removing a brain implant seems to destroy it, or at least render it useless.
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, because I think the opposite. :)
It makes a load of sense to me that one cannot extract an implant intact from a living, working brain without risk to said brain, but I just can't see why extracting an implant whole from a dead brain and putting it in a new one could not be possible with Eve technology.
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1. The assumption that the cloning company can extract brain implants and put them into a fresh body does clearly not gel with the fact that the act of removing a brain implant seems to destroy it, or at least render it useless.
I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, because I think the opposite. :)
It makes a load of sense to me that one cannot extract an implant intact from a living, working brain without risk to said brain, but I just can't see why extracting an implant whole from a dead brain and putting it in a new one could not be possible with Eve technology.
But in that case, I should be able to jump out of that clone into another, remove the implants and jump back into it, so I have the implants.
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(Burning Life spoilers)
At the end of the novel, two characters confront a capsuleer in the flesh, after he leaves his pod. And they threaten to kill the capsuleer, beat him to death. And he is afraid for his life. This would indicate that if you die outside of your pod, you're dead.
Im curious how people play this, and what the general consensus is on this. Thoughts, opinions, etc?
My reading was that their sabotage was the reason he wouldn't be recloned at all. So to my mind it doesn't suggest death outside pod = total death.
The author went through the usual tortuous hoops to introduce threat of death for a capsuleer*: it was indicated that this was that capsuleer's one and only cloning station and they had sabotaged it.
That being so, obviously death outside the pod is permanent death because actually death in the pod would be permanent death: they'd sabotaged the whole setup.
So on that reading, in fact the novel supports the idea (seen elsewhere in the PF) that death outside pod basically loses you the memories you had since your last backup but you get a new functioning clone using the last backup.
Cos
* Death is a major device in literature - I have seen CCP's various authors struggle in various ways with the fact that capsuleers really do not easily die. They don't really have a satisfactory answer to it. Note the Gariushi death device: all his eggs in one basket (essentially the same device used in Burning Life you will notice). It was ridiculous. So ridiculous that I suspect most people who've thought about it feel that Gariushi is probably still alive and lying low somewhere.
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In general, there is sufficient in PF, game mechanics and the whole complex of EVE background to indicate quite clearly that it is possible to reclone from backup after out-of-pod death.
This leaves it as a matter of choice.
If people want to RP that they will not avail themselves of the option to reclone on out-of-pod death, that's fine. It's their choice.
But they have to accept that people who want to RP that they can reclone on out-of-pod death are entirely justified in doing so based on the EVE PF.
Cosmo
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In general, there is sufficient in PF, game mechanics and the whole complex of EVE background to indicate quite clearly that it is possible to reclone from backup after out-of-pod death.
To clarify my view, I do not dispute the technical possibility of storing a backup of one's brain state. However, I feel the existence of such backups does not necessicate a "soft scan" technology that would leave the brain intact. Creation of such a backup would, in my opinion, be more likely a "side effect" of a burning scan and a transfer of conciousness from one clone to another.
Moreover, I have played so that backups are not generally stored and/or reviving people from such copies is not common. I have also assumed such revivals to be more or less illegal depending on the circumstances, because of the inherent multiple possibilities for abuse and fraud. (In effect making out-of-pod deaths generally permanent.) I do not know of any PF directly backing the previous up, though.
I'd be curious to know what other people in general think about the legality of storing such backups? Are they commonly made, and if so, how available are they to different people? How easy/difficult/impossible is it to get yours? Does CRC lock them up in vaults or is extorting former capsuleer customers with "give us money or we create a copy of you and take it all" a side business of underground clone labs? :P
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The problem I see in your argument is that in order to argue against the possibility of a soft scan you have argued for the possibility of removal of implants from a clone on the basis of EVE technology allowing the latter. In other words, you seem to accept that EVE technology will allow one thing because that thing can be used as evidence (if it is so) for something else you appear not to feel should be readily-available using EVE technology.
Dealing with the 'implant removal' concept itself, you don't explain why, if it's the case implants can be removed from jump clones you would hold to be destroyed, we can't swap in and out implants of our choosing at our jump clone locations - particularly after jumping away from a given jump clone (which you say destroys it).
You also don't deal with the fact that a jump clone will be destroyed, implants and all, if one jumps from an active clone at that same location to another jump clone location leaving a new jump clone behind in place of the old jump clone (the explanation for this is not clear but it is so). If you're right, why don't we recover our implants from the destroyed clone?
The most likely explanation to all this is that jump clones are basically 'alive' (kept in a suspended 'ready' state), hence implants can't be recovered from them, and they are not destroyed in the outbound scanning process because it is not an emergency burning scanner used under extreme conditions. It's a non-invasive process probably using technology that you simply couldn't install into a capsule. The reason for having only one jump clone at one facility may be, I would speculate, that we maintain a basic link with that jump clone at all times. Certainly we can access the status of the clone via our NeoCom. Possibly a feature of the technology and the psychological limits of maintaining clones is that only a single link to a given location is possible (psycho-technologically). If that's so, severing the link may well effectively nullify a jump clone, explaining why a new clone in the same location would destroy the existing clone.
The other difficulty you run into is the legality question. Not all cloning facilities are under CONCORD control.
My organisation controls several facilities in-game, some mobile, and I can assure you we do precisely what we wish with them. Something that is forgotten sometimes is that for quite some time now many player characters have had direct control over the jump clone contracts of other characters in outposts and Titans (once Motherships too but of course they have been repurposed to Supercarriers).
One of the great things about EVE is that it is not an MMO where the background is set at the beginning and then it never changes. It has a real background in terms of social, political and, crucially, technological change. And these things are reflected, often imperfectly granted but reflected nonetheless, in the game itself.
In the end, I always view the shared RP background in the way that maximises choice for all other players consistent with the PF. People want themselves to die outside the pod? Fine. Matter of choice. People want everyone to die outside the pod? Not fine because there is no PF backing for that being a general rule all players should observe. Quite to the contrary.
Cosmo
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Wow - in skimming this over there's a large amount of range.
I had a scene were Zu was killed outside the pod and had her wake up in a clone vat from the time of her last podded death. I actually pulled chat logs from between her last in pod death and the RP event and had her have no relocation of what happened.
Worked out great for the guy that killed her - she still don't know what he did to her.
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1. The assumption that the cloning company can extract brain implants and put them into a fresh body does clearly not gel with the fact that the act of removing a brain implant seems to destroy it, or at least render it useless. Beyond the hard/soft scanner debate, there is nothing suggesting that the body we jump back to isn't the same body that we jumped away from. If they are kept in clone vats in the meantime, it's because that's a tried and proven method for keeping unconscious bodies alive and healthy.
The problem with this argument is that it ignores the definition of what a "vat" is. Here is the definition from Dictionary.com (and the only definition outside of a specific chemical science reference involving dyes)
noun--
a large container, as a tub or tank, used for storing or holding liquids: a wine vat.
Which means for a Clone Vat to actually be a vat, it would have to hold clones in liquid form. Which would make it difficult for the clones to be alive and healthy. Vats, by definition, don't hold solid objects.
2. Is it not possible that Mr. Ancru started his clone jumping tour from a location that wasn't his home? I know I've flown around setting up clones in places I frequent so that I can jump to them whenever I want - so it's perfectly reasonable that Mr. Ancru had a fresh clone installed in his home system (and in Sizamod, and wherever else he thought he might like to go), then went somewhere else, and started his clone jumping circuit from outside his home system. That would be why he has now clone jumped back home, into a fresh body.
Well, actually the chronicle mentions that since he could jump clone, he had long given up space flight. Makes a big point of saying so actually. And he was returning home, or at least to a home, so it would make sense that he would have been back at least once since having the jump clones installed. So, even the context of the chronicle, it doesn't seem he flew somewhere else and then jump cloned back. So therefor he was jumping back into a new clone from a place he should have had one on stand by.
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Gottii: I'm pretty positive that the implication of clone vats are that there is a clone in there, in solid form. Suggesting that clone vats are containers of liquid clone is, I think, a bit of a stretch. Particularly considering that in the cloning article, parts of the process involved in building a clone is described, as I recall.
Of relevance:
http://www.eveonline.com/background/cloning/clon_02.asp
In particular:
Culturing a clone takes several months, but all clone stations store generic clones that are only put to use when a client buys it. The skull, and frequently other bones as well, is replaced by osteoplastic materials – soft synthetic bone polymers that can be shaped and then hardened by gamma laser irradiation. In this way, facial features and other body marks and textures can be applied very quickly. The process is very quick and is applied as soon as the clone is purchased. A similar technique is also used to adjust skin tones and give special skin marks, such as tattoos and scars. This means that the featureless clone is quickly transformed into an identical twin of the client.
Also of interest:
Because the scan must be instantaneous and efficient it brutalizes the brain in the process.
Which seems to state directly that the brutalization is a result of the scan needing to be instantaneous.
Been a while since I read that article.
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Cosmopolite, what are your thoughts on the "backup" clone, as regards amnesia and therapy?
I posted earlier, about an example of a clone being activated in a non-standard way, and they did not know why they knew what they knew sort of thing.
What are your thoughts about that sort of thing? If someone activates a backup, having been killed out-of-pod, would it be more disorientating than the "normal" cloning method?
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More disorientating? Probably not. For the waking clone, all that it knows is that it's waking up. There might be an "oh shit" moment if the clone was made from an out-of-pod scan, because once you realize you've just been cloned, and your last memory was lying down to make a backup mind scan, you'll know you were killed out-of-pod and have no idea who did it or the circumstances of it (such a scenario was the plot hook to one of my stories).
But I don't imagine you'd be any more confused or disoriented than a standard podded/cloned cycle.
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I agree with Yoshito. It's more a question of likely to be more disconcerting, for the reasons Yoshito outlines, than more disorienting.
There is an indication in the PF (specifically Theodicy) that someone cloned from a backup, and therefore not having any experiential memory of the circumstances of their last death or indeed the moment itself, should not lightly be confronted with the details of what happened. I would guess that there are some psychological risks associated with exposure to such information. So it's not as if cloning from backup is without some costs and risks.
Which is to say that death out of pod definitely has a price. It just needn't be permanent death.
Cosmo
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I have not read everything here, so don't know if it's mentioned before, but in my pow, there is a clear answer to this in one PF part that's canon: The Broker (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=01-02-05)
He's not a capsuleer, afaik, so how does he move about in multiple bodies and appearances? Easy; He's rich enough to have multiple non-capsuleer clones.
The difference that I've seen between a capsuleer and any normal baseline human is the ability to NOT be imprisoned in your own body upon leaving the pod. Anyone can be hooked into the pod. Only the select few found able to, can potentially avoid mindlock. These select few (I'm assuming this trait is found by genetic examening, I don't remember reading it anywhere) are those who can become capsuleers. Out of those who are found to be able and who are funded, (or pay themselves in some cases?) only the one's who don't fail or drop out during training (iirc the failure rate is very high) actually become full capsuleers.
So the only difference between a capsuleer clone and a normal one, besides who it belongs to, is the implants needed to simply connect to the pod, think plugs and holes ala The Matrix and such.
Still, nothing that I've seen says cloning is unavailable to the general public, only that it's cost prohibits all but the wealthy elite. How do these people get cloned? There is also the cronicle One man to many (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=03-sep-01) that explains how people can change appearance and appear duplicates of others, though it primarely explains about jump-clones, iirc one belonging to a non-podder.
Buy clone. Have it updated. You get dead, you upload into it. In theory the old 'you' is dead and the new one emerges, fully aware up until the point where your memory was backed-up. Shame on you if you only back-up once a year... Regardless, I think of this as less a 'cheap cop-out' and more like a legit PF-backed tactic to allow yourself to do sometimes dumb, sometimes reckless stuff in person, in stations or on planets or wherever out of pod, and possibly 'survive' it. Ofc 'you' don't survive at all but your replacer will pick up where you left off last.
Now if 'you' are really still alive or whatever much depends on your view of what being human means. Are you yourself with a loss of, say, two days worth of memory? I'm sure your allies and employees will inform you of what you missed. Or are you a copy of a copy of a copy etc. of some guy who got killed at some point?
Capsuleers are quasi-immortal. If they take the proper steps to prevent it death will be a temporary annoyance at worst. The 'quasi' part comes from the fact that all this relies on technology. Tech that might fail, or be denied you one day, or possibly... sabotaged.
*EDIT* Now that I've read a bit more from the tread, I'll have to agree with Cosmo. The question is not really 'can we do this?' and more 'do I want to do this in regard to my character?' Also, like he said, as a plot-device PF supports it, so if you don't like others doing it, sadly that's something you have to live with.
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The problem I see in your argument is that in order to argue against the possibility of a soft scan you have argued for the possibility of removal of implants from a clone on the basis of EVE technology allowing the latter.
I argued against soft scan on basis of PF describing only a destructive scan method, and said method being sufficient to explain jump clones.
From my viewpoint, the later discussion was more about how the different interpretations and game mechanics might fit together. (As opposed to proof one way or the other)
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http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1058.msg12169#msg12169
From the "Jita 4-4" chron. Seems confirmed in PF there.
If people think about it, if you can transmit a piece of living data through space at multiple factors of the speed of light...then why can't you have a "last saved game" sort of clone?
A soft clone in this instance thus appears a couple hundred years less advanced than a capsule clone.
Not a hard process...implant notifies clone vat bay of death (a remote life reader common throughout a crapload of sci-fi)
Clone activated, with memories of last brain scan.
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Then why did he insinuate that finding a capsuleer sleeping would be quite lethal to them.
In a permanent way.
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Then why did he insinuate that finding a capsuleer sleeping would be quite lethal to them.
In a permanent way.
I don't think he did. I took the strong implication that falling asleep and being killed before waking would be an inconvenience.
"They, sadly, only have one go at this. For me this is practice. Something to keep my senses sharp after a long while doing nothing much, just mixing it up."
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The part were he mentioned that capsuleers dying wasn't about dying out of pod, but about something happening at the cloning facility.