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[Seriphyn]

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1384197&page=1

Was fun until accusing people of godmodding went around.

I might have done better to have posted it on EVE Fiction, though it's not the first time I have posted an SDII "Freedom Nazi" post, it's only now I'm being pushed around because of it. The idea is that it's basically a "player-made news item". It's about as much godmodding as writing a short story about the SDII hunting down some corrupt politician.

I am really being given a hard time about this, so people care to share their thoughts?

[Silver Night]

I think what people may have trouble with is that it is something you are saying an NPC organization is doing being presented as fact.

Other people have as much right to say it didn't happen as you do to say it did happen.

It only becomes god-modding, I would think, if people say it didn't happen, and you tell those players that their characters have to believe it did happen because you say so. Really ineffectual god modding, I suppose. If you stick to your character claiming things, well. He can claim whatever he wants, right? Doesn't mean anyone has to believe it is true, or agree.

[Seriphyn]

I think what people may have trouble with is that it is something you are saying an NPC organization is doing being presented as fact.

Other people have as much right to say it didn't happen as you do to say it did happen.

It only becomes god-modding, I would think, if people say it didn't happen, and you tell those players that their characters have to believe it did happen because you say so. Really ineffectual god modding, I suppose. If you stick to your character claiming things, well. He can claim whatever he wants, right? Doesn't mean anyone has to believe it is true, or agree.

About as much as Lai Dai Infinity Systems is affliated with Lai Dai, and so on from there...

[Ulphus]

I think you're painting some people's beloved Federation as being bad guys, and some people don't like that. Only CCP are allowed to badmouth <insert beloved faction here>.

That said, I read it as "General Inhonores shows off something that he's been involved with" and in that light, I had no problems with it. You're owning the approbation or respect around the actions. You have in-game influence enough to get things like this to happen (of course, you might end up with the secretary disavowing all knowledge of your activities...)

If you were saying "This is nothing to do with me, but it's something the Feds have been up to, honest" then I could see people thinking it was god-modding, since you're saying "this is how the world is" because it matches your view of things, regardless of whether it matches what other people's view of things is.

CCP, being in a somewhat privileged position, get to do that when they feel like it. Players, not so much, unless they can get everyone to buy into it. The definition of god-modding is telling other people how the world is, rather than getting them to agree how the world is.

IGS is a little different from the fiction section, since it is by default actually happening in the game universe. Either it's true, or it's fake that was really broadcast. I can ignore as much of the fiction as I feel like and nobody cares, IGS sort of requires people to at least accept that someone has broadcast something, even if they think it's fake.

[Silver Night]

I think there are some differences here, Seriphyn.

For example, (though in the case of Lai Dai it wouldn't be entirely out of character) LDIS isn't claiming that Lai Dai is hunting down and executing dissenters. They aren't claiming to have specific examples,a nd video of it. They have, to my knowledge, never claimed to have access to specific, confidential, internal Lai Dai information.

Like I said, you can absolutely have your character say that he does, or post things as facts.

What you can't do is make everyone else's character believe him.

[BloodBird]

In some ways the response from others in that tread would mostly be hillarious if not so damn sad.

Especially Soter. "He's lying, this never took place publicly!" WTF man? Maybe you did not like it; maybe it rubbed you the wrong way, maybe you don't like the idea of the SDII - who are effectively a BLACK POLICE FORCE - doing things like this, but it can damn well happen. You could have talked to Seriphyn about it, you know. Worked any disagreements over 'would the Fed do something like this and how likely is it' out in an ooc convo or even an IC convo that explained things.

But no, now we have one guy claiming it happened (under entierly realistic terms even) and another who show up suddenly to claim it's all a lie. THAT is what I call God-modding - "He's wrong and his make-belief event NEVER TOOK PLACE, becasue I SAID SO." You can't both be right IC and thus one is forced to bite the bullet and look like a delusional idiot in public. By opinion and popular view-point from the Federal players Inhonores will have to bite the bullet because the rest can't imagine their pristine snow-white Fed as anything but snow-white with perfect morals.

Great job, thank you so much. I'd say to all the nay-sayers go read up on the SDII corp and the Fed's current history. They are as grey as any other and this stuff could well happen - if people are happy about it or not is entierly their problem.

God-modding goes both ways - Seriphyn is entierly right here, LDIS can claim to have shares sold to/given to whomever NPC corp they please - can anyone PROVE IT in-game? No. Can LDIS actaully DO IT in-game? No - it's a make-belief game based on their idea of plausible events, people will have ot trust their word.

Can the freedom-fighters be trusted to have ACTUALLY freed the slaves? Yes, from an IC view-point, because in-game they can only trash the slaves or keep them. It's the same thing here.

[Valdezi]

I don't know if I fully agree with you BloodBird; to an extent, both players are god-modding.

Seriphyn has made the claim that an NPC organisation has executed some people. There is no in-game mechanism for this, so the claim has no OOC veracity.

Soter has said that he has a line to the FIO and that they repudiate the whole business, also not possible in game.

Seriphyn has made the claim that branches of the Federal Government execute prisoners without trial by hanging. The impact of this on the RP community is that we either have to accept that these things happen, despite the fact it could be repudiated by PF or that we might not see the Federation that way, or we can reject it, sometimes by using the same technique employed in the original post, the appeal to authority. Yes, as BloodBird said, you can't both be right IC (Though I can think of a few ways, Federal disinformation for one), but is the answer that the first person to make the claim that can't be disproven automatically right? In that case, I am an Idama. And the Prince of Harroule. And Rouvenor's descendant. It's all stupid, obviously.

Either it was okay for both of them, or it was wrong for both of them. I'm fine with either.

Stitcher made a valuable contribution to the whole business with his link, grounding the discussion at least in verified fact.

[BloodBird]

I agree to a degree, Mammal. You see, he did not say they were hanged without proof, he said they had "been arrested and detained with varying levels of evidence that incriminates them as those who would cooperate with Nation invaders to see the enslavement of their fellow, free citizens to the Sansha menace." thus implying (to me atl) that the evidence varies - and it does, as he further listed the number of charges for the four, and those did vary greatly.

If they were indeed innocent or not, hanged without trial or not, is not directly shown, merely the accusations, the implied evidence and the hangings themselves. And at this point, yes, it's up to everyone to decide for themselves if their char's believe the events took place or not, and decide as well if they believe they were hanged without evidence or not.

And now we have the sad facts presented - various different character stumbling over each-other's claims either claiming the event did or did not happen based on their own available "intel" - ergo their own private opinions. It's such a massive immersion breaker, though Stitcher's post did help alot by underlying the proved PF source of arguments for the idea that this can in fact happen and is not to far-fetched, not at all really.

[Silver Night]

I think neither of them is godmodding.

We have characters saying things.

They can say whatever they want. Nothing says that other characters have to believe them.

It would be godmodding if they were claiming that they had an impact on other characters. If Seriphyn claimed that he was having Soter arrested or something. As it is, it's just unverifiable things that their characters are claiming. Other people can call them on it, or not.

There might be a conversation to be had about whether such tactics are effective ( I feel they probably aren't), but I don't think it is godmodding.

[BloodBird]

You know what Silver? Your right. I totally missed that fact (likely due to sleep-depravation, but I'll fix that VERY soon) and your right, neither is god-modding in the sense of the word's use.

The IC question now ofc is who is full of bullshit and who is not; because as previously mentioned both can't be entierly right... oh wait, yes they can, but it can't be made very 'public' - Seriphyn might have made the executions public as a mistake and Soter's applying damage-control. Or the other way around, Soter's damage-control is based on previously stated 'orders' not to let the shadow-war on the Fed's enemies become very public, but he was not notified about the decitition to make this particular case public as a warning.

Either way, it's a mess. People are making contradicting statements in public and the whole thing has become somewhat bizzare.

[Julianus Soter]

Which is why you never make these kinds of things public in the first place, maybe?

regarding the FIO angle, Soter does have a 9.5 with them. I can use it, in a way, to RP his sourcing, to highlight something that is false.

However, I don't really understand the effort to puppeteer NPC entities like the SDII into doing unverifiable acts in the public domain.

[Silver Night]

I think that painting in the grey areas where CCP hasn't given us anything can have value and contribute a lot to RP, depending on how it's done.

What represents an effective way of doing that, that other people will be willing to be involved with, and that will be successful is both variable and open to debate.

I think it depends a lot on how it's done, and how other people react to it.

That's why they're grey areas, I guess. 

[Z.Sinraali]

Thirding the emphasis on the fact that nothing here counts as god-moding. (ONE D, DAMN YOU.)

Still, if you think someone is taking excessive liberties with the PF, taking liberties of your own to say "NUH-UH" IC and in public is a ridiculously excessive scorched-earth way to deal with it.

[Sabbott]

Although I don't think its productive to have someone come in and say it did'nt happen, you should always prepare for the fact it might happen... And I don't see anything wrong with it (someone coming in to discount your event) ..., BUT.. I would use this as an opportunity to create a better OOC/Collaborative relationship with other federation RP based organizations, so you can cooperate together in future, then compete or discount each other cause of disagreements of views of how the federation should be portrayed

Finally,  I will admit, I'm not really a fan of Eve RPers announcing NPC based events/news on IGS. If it had involved Sansha capsuleers and some "collaborators" then it would be more relevant. I just think this was on course for such a problem.  

[Boma Airaken]

I reported it, it belongs in EVE Fiction, not on IGS.

I will NOT however post a reply to call you a godmoding wanker, that is even worse than posting player created fiction on IGS, and I can't stand people who jump in and say proof or STFU in threads like this.