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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Gervas Heidrich on 16 Apr 2013, 11:19

Title: House of Heidrich
Post by: Gervas Heidrich on 16 Apr 2013, 11:19
I'm taking under consideration the idea of starting a role playing house for the Heidrich family. This house would be a minor noble "holder" house under the Amarrian heirarchial structure with little influence until my toons have actually grown (skill wise) enough to have any sort of ability to push on foreign politics and/or military strategem. I would be seeking to place the house into an alliance, pre-existing or newly forming, in an in-character fashion. I am also interested in commissioning an artist, for ISK, to design the crest of the house.

If anyone is interested in entertaining or expanding upon this idea, please get with me in-game.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Anslol on 16 Apr 2013, 11:27
I wish I was Amarrian...then I'd start a house...

(Winter is Coming)...


Serious mode: This actually sounds like an awesome world building idea. +1 to you and good luck. I hope it takes off!

I also expect to see castles upon vast mountain ranges and mirror like lakes.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Gervas Heidrich on 16 Apr 2013, 11:32
I thought about that whole large and regal thing at first. But then I decided to Err on the side of realistic modesty.  8) Maybe once I do get large castles with mirror lakes, I'll turn you all into chamber slaves and work you to death with slaver hounds at every door.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Ember Vykos on 16 Apr 2013, 11:35
That sounds like a cool idea. I've always wanted to delve into Amarr RP in this kind of fashion. You could use it as an alt corp of sorts to play with while your main does other things till youre ready to take over the house properly. I certainly wish you luck with this.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 16 Apr 2013, 11:47
Sounds great!

Be mindful of how you deal with your relative strength vs other capsuleers, your 'new' status in that community with regards to your baseliner power and influence. This can be tough for Amarr RPers especially, those coming from privilege and status and then being a relative noob nobody in capsuleer circles. Plenty of fuel for good RP there!

IE saying you are from a great and noble house and fabulously wealthy while flying your punisher around and dying 100 times might not get the capsuleer reaction you are looking for RP wise.  Maybe you are the first in the House to be a capsuleer, etc etc and work your way up from there.

Sounds great though good luck!
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 16 Apr 2013, 11:48
There's a few Holder "households" floating around in the RP community, either as corps or as background RP/worldbuilding entities, so there are plenty of people around who should be able to help you out with ideas or advice if you need it.

Morwen is part of one, technically, but it's not very widely publicized IC. >.>
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Gervas Heidrich on 16 Apr 2013, 11:50
IE saying you are from a great and noble house and fabulously wealthy while flying your punisher around and dying 100 times might not get the capsuleer reaction you are looking for RP wise.  Maybe you are the first in the House to be a capsuleer, etc etc and work your way up from there.

Hense the prior statement - "minor noble holder with little influence" until the skills are high enough to justify gloating about high and mighty.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 16 Apr 2013, 11:51
It might also be useful to 'map out' your House and their relationship to and opinion of other Holders, Heir Houses, Empress, The Reclaiming, etc before you go public.

Will help you to have a plan and know the background broad strokes before someone asks or challenges you on an Imperial issue and you have to go hmmmm for 5 minutes while thinking what side of issues you are on.

Don't kill yourself with background but it might make some conversations with other Amarr go more smoothly and believable.

Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 16 Apr 2013, 11:52
IE saying you are from a great and noble house and fabulously wealthy while flying your punisher around and dying 100 times might not get the capsuleer reaction you are looking for RP wise.  Maybe you are the first in the House to be a capsuleer, etc etc and work your way up from there.

Hense the prior statement - "minor noble holder with little influence" until the skills are high enough to justify gloating about high and mighty.

Or be a pompous ass and gloat high and mighty off the bat and see if you can back it up!  :P
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Gervas Heidrich on 16 Apr 2013, 11:59
Starting a house when no one knows you in the RP community is the perfect opportunity for the house to gain its notoriety as a house name with less emphasis on the individual. Your actions, in the sense of nobility I would think, would have to reflect, to a large degree, the general attitude and policy of the house you're representing. I would also think it not be inconceivable that a commoner in Amarrian society managed to work his way up to the status of a holder thus having that character be the first to root himself into the noble line. That's the idea I'm going off of. I'll be doing some reading on Amarrian chronicles, attitudes and government policy to fabricate the House of Heidrich's attitude towards certain affairs.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 16 Apr 2013, 12:04
Starting a house when no one knows you in the RP community is the perfect opportunity for the house to gain its notoriety as a house name with less emphasis on the individual. Your actions, in the sense of nobility I would think, would have to reflect, to a large degree, the general attitude and policy of the house you're representing. I would also think it not be inconceivable that a commoner in Amarrian society managed to work his way up to the status of a holder thus having that character be the first to root himself into the noble line. That's the idea I'm going off of. I'll be doing some reading on Amarrian chronicles, attitudes and government policy to fabricate the House of Heidrich's attitude towards certain affairs.

Commonors work their way up all the time, but usually as the result of their family pushing and pushing for many generations to push up. 

This can be done through cash/money like the Tash-Murkons, or other means.

Remember there is a war on, has been going on for years, we can imagine many many minor families and commoners have been raised up and granted lands and titles through service to the 24th Imperial Crusade, etc.

Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: lallara zhuul on 16 Apr 2013, 12:40
The problem is that you have no power over the npcs in the game.

Claiming it at any point of your career will discredit all your work that you have put into this project.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 16 Apr 2013, 13:01
We have plenty of power over lots of generic NPC's, or NPCs we create for RP, but not 'ccp' npcs (unless during events or news stories etc).

This power needs to be metered and believable based on relative capsuleer performance, though :P

IE: I'm not landing troops on Athra, and my people aren't invading Delve, but I am pillaging certain areas of lowsec...


Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Gervas Heidrich on 16 Apr 2013, 13:04
The problem is that you have no power over the npcs in the game.

Claiming it at any point of your career will discredit all your work that you have put into this project.

This is something I don't particularly care for in back stories either. In the 18 years I've been role playing in MMOs, the use of NPCs to establish a foundation of power, personal relationships, or bloodline in order to justify one's influence in the world end up inevitably back firing on you the more you use it. You then start facing inquests and inquiries from those who have real influence which then has a habit of destroying any credibility your character ever had. Like I said from the start, this is a very modest, very small, noble holder's house with emphasis on the realistic angle of how it came to gain the status. Ties to hard coded lore or NPCs, for me, is off limits and out of the question other than to say the Heidrich family was granted the title by the Royal House for X,Y,Z.

As you all get to actually know me, you'll find I'm not the overly egocentric, self-entitled pompous ass bent on treating everyone like garbage for the sake of self preservation and power grabbing. But I'll leave that assessment up to you folks to determine yourself.

Speaking of troops landing (ref: Silas) - Now that Dust 514 is integrated with EVE, that will bring in a whole new playing field for noble houses. I very much intend to explore that avenue later on.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 16 Apr 2013, 13:16
The easiest way to avoid some of these 'godmodding' issues is to link them with your capsuleer and how well they do in the capsuleer world.

You are an ace pilot, you do great work, you spearhead the crusade and capture much territory for the Empire, (or something related, just an example here) +5 cool points for your background and adjust your standing in their world accordingly.

You die horribly in a ball of fire every single time you undock, you have no money, no one respects you IC, you have no influence over other capsuleers, maybe -5 cool points for your relative influence planetside.

Also the sized and reach of any organization you work with can help these things.

Large RP groups (something like IRED), have hundreds of thousands of baseliners working away for them.

Old, storied groups (like PIE), are ridiculously famous among Imperial baseliners and are likely inundated with applicants and faithful all the time.

It's all about weaving how you and your character are perceived by others into your RP.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Gervas Heidrich on 16 Apr 2013, 15:51
Here's a rough draft of the house. I highly encourage comments, suggestions and criticism. Keeping in mind the relatively small and unknown nature of the house, there isn't going to be much in the way of history.

House of Heidrich

The House of Heidrich is a common house that rooted itself in the Tash-Murkon region nearly 45 years ago. Unlike most houses, the Heidrich Family owns no land on any of the planets within the region. Instead, they have operated solely out of space opting to keep their assets fluid for ease of mobility. Over the years, the house became known by the local populace for it's small time mining operations within the region providing a small percentage of the ore required by its industrial sector. The family has always been very private about both their lives and history, so little is known by the locals about where they originated or who they were prior to their arrival. What is currently known thus far is a woman by the name of Alexis Heidrich is the current head of the house residing with her husband, Gervas Heidrich, who is charged with the daily oversight of all industrial operations. Their fleet currently consists of five ships manned primarily by approximately 107 slaves of varying nationalities. The household ideals are a hybrid mix of the Kor-Azor and Sarum Families in that the house believes in eventual expansion of their territory, but not to such an extent that military force is necessarily required to accomplish that goal. Their total reported net worth to the Amarrian crown was listed at approximately 1.8 billion ISK.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Gervas Heidrich on 16 Apr 2013, 18:34
The house is officially incorporated if anyone is interested in starting interactions with the house.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Sepherim on 16 Apr 2013, 19:21
I like all you've been saying and the description, and actually look forward to RPing with you. Seems like a very interesting project! :)
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Esna Pitoojee on 17 Apr 2013, 11:07
Just a quick question - is the fleet you refer to your own (capsuleer) vessels, or something else?
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Gervas Heidrich on 17 Apr 2013, 11:44
The ships my capsuleers own.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Samira Kernher on 18 Apr 2013, 02:22
Since I've developed and RP'ed noble houses in other RP universes, and have done quite a bit of reading into Imperial nobility, going to offer a few thoughts and suggestions for you, Gervas. :) You might already know this stuff, especially if you've already read the Holder article on EVElopedia (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holder), but figured I'd offer the advice anyway just in-case. :)


First thing is: You've chosen a bit of an unconventional Holding, I noticed. Holdings are typically based on land ownership, though land ownership does not mean just planets--it also refers to celestial bodies. You've mentioned mining in your overview, so I'm assuming your bit of space includes asteroid belts and mining colonies, along with any customs stations and other space stations used to administer those, correct? Also, keep in mind that Holdings are often named after their Holder (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Tash-Murkon_%28Region%29), so your little area of space would probably be called Heidrich unless it was once owned by a previous Holder House, in which case it may have the former Holder House's name.

Secondly, keep in mind that Holders, like noble lords in RL feudalism, exist because their lieges wanted them to exist. Every Holder is a vassal to a greater Holder. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holder#Hierarchy) Before they became a Holder family, they would have had to have proven themselves, and sworn allegiance to, that greater Holder, whom, upon recognizing the merit or worth of the family, deigned to grant them governorship of one of their own Holdings (whether an already existing one whose Holdership has somehow become empty, or through redefinition of borders in order to create a new Holding (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holder#New_Holders)). So consider your family's relation to their liege.

Next, be aware that there is only one single titled Holder per noble House. The title of Holder refers specifically to the titled Holder governing a Holding. Every other member of the House is what is called "non-titled nobility". (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holder#Holders_and_nobility) They are nobles, but they are not referred to as Holders. Therefore, the only person in House Heidrich whom would be a Holder, would be Alexis Heidrich. Gervas would not be a Holder. In everyday speech, Alexis would be addressed as "Lady Heidrich" (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holder#Titles), while for official announcements at formal proceedings she would likely be styled "The Right Honourable The Holder Heidrich", or simply "The Holder Heidrich" (these styles were used in a recent news report, though sadly due to the reorganization of the EVE Online website, I can't link it atm until they reopen the archive for the individual empire news articles). Gervas would probably be able to be addressed as Lord Heidrich, carrying the Lord preface as a courtesy style (as he is not an actual Holder himself) due to being the husband of a Holder.

Any children the two possess, along with any relatives, would not be referred to as Lord or Lady. Even the heir to the House is not a Holder and would not be referred to as Lord or Lady, unless House Heidrich has a lesser Holding that it can grant to that heir (thus granting a minor Holder title out of courtesy). From how you've described the House, this doesn't seem to be the case, so only Alexis and Gervas would carry the styles Lady and Lord, and only Alexis would carry the title of Holder.

One thing to keep in mind are what I refer to as Custodians. These are members of your Holding, such as the Holder's relatives or favored officials, who have been granted a Custodial Servitude Contract (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2539775#post2539775). A Custodial Servitude Contract grants the contractee direct management over some of the House's slaves. Custodians don't actually own slaves, rather they are granted them as courtesy. Only Alexis would be a slave owner, while Gervas would have to be a Custodian (unless he goes with ownership of slaves through the SCC by merit of his capsuleer status, which is typically very disrespected by other Holders (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holder#Role) but is possible if you want him to be able to actually own his own slaves rather than simply being a Custodian over a few of his wife's slaves). Their children would probably be Custodians as well, along with perhaps a few close siblings and/or favored officials.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Lyn Farel on 18 Apr 2013, 04:56
Now that I am reading this I wonder if we ever had anything in PF about the succession rules for Holdership, like if it is obligatory primogeniture or not, like if it is cognatic or not, or like if it is just by the decision of the Holder himself/herself. And if that varies or not depending on the various places around the Empire.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Samira Kernher on 18 Apr 2013, 05:06
Now that I am reading this I wonder if we ever had anything in PF about the succession rules for Holdership, like if it is obligatory primogeniture or not, like if it is cognatic or not, or like if it is just by the decision of the Holder himself/herself. And if that varies or not depending on the various places around the Empire.

The Holder article mentions "designated heir", and "naming" heirs. This was very apparent with the Sarum Family, since Jamyl "died" without naming an heir, and thus forced the House's elders to pick one. Also, when Doriam II became Emperor, he specifically named Aritcio, who is described as his favored son, as Heir.

Tash-Murkon offers the greatest example of refusing primogeniture, however, as Catiz was the youngest child of Davit.

"Catiz Tash-Murkon, the youngest child of the late Davit Tash-Murkon, is the leader of the Tash-Murkon royal house, and the most wealthy person in the Empire.

It came as little surprise when Davit named her as his heir."
- Catiz Tash-Murkon, EVElopedia (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Catiz_Tash-Murkon)


On the other hand, Ardishapur's EVElopedia article mentions this:

"As the first son of the powerful heir, Yonis was groomed to take over for his father." - Yonis Ardishapur, EVElopedia (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Yonis_Ardishapur)


It may or may not be obligatory, depending on the House. Primogeniture might be more traditional, but does not seem to be required. House Ardishapur seems to be the only House that follows it amongst the royal families.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: ArtOfLight on 18 Apr 2013, 08:35
Now that I am reading this I wonder if we ever had anything in PF about the succession rules for Holdership, like if it is obligatory primogeniture or not, like if it is cognatic or not, or like if it is just by the decision of the Holder himself/herself. And if that varies or not depending on the various places around the Empire.

Samira offered a good answer. I will state that "being groomed" to takeover doesn't mean you will, it simply means that it is the natural order in the Empire for the firstborn to begin being trained to take over. The Holder can easily designate another Heir Presumptive and there have been many examples of this in Imperial history.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Nicoletta Mithra on 18 Apr 2013, 09:43
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holders#Heredity
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Gervas Heidrich on 18 Apr 2013, 10:03
First thing first - Samira, thank you for all of that wonderful information on the finer points of Holdership. That'll help me a great deal in the development of the house.

Secondly, I retracted the original plan to turn the house into a house of minor nobility and decided to make it a "common" house with no real influence of any sort until later on. But that was probably confused with the statement I made in the description pointing to the implication of having made the decision not to own land which, by definition from Samira's information, wasn't even possible to begin with unless you were a titled noble house. I'll be fixing that in the actual in-game corp description next time I log in. At some point in time, though, it is my intention to earn the house the ability to be considered some type of a Holder house. Under what circumstances that'll end up being I haven't decided yet. But I hope my interaction with the role playing community will help to shape that.

[mod]*snip* - Removed last paragraph referring to the excised "the name is nazi point" discussion. ~Morwen[/mod]
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Samira Kernher on 18 Apr 2013, 10:17
First thing first - Samira, thank you for all of that wonderful information on the finer points of Holdership. That'll help me a great deal in the development of the house.

You're welcome. :)

Quote
Secondly, I retracted the original plan to turn the house into a house of minor nobility and decided to make it a "common" house with no real influence of any sort until later on. But that was probably confused with the statement I made in the description pointing to the implication of having made the decision not to own land which, by definition from Samira's information, wasn't even possible to begin with unless you were a titled noble house. I'll be fixing that in the actual in-game corp description next time I log in. At some point in time, though, it is my intention to earn the house the ability to be considered some type of a Holder house. Under what circumstances that'll end up being I haven't decided yet. But I hope my interaction with the role playing community will help to shape that.

Ah, I see. I didn't notice the retraction. The use of the "House of Heidrich", and the phrasing of it as a House (in capital letters) made me assume it was a minor Holdership. I figured by 'common house', you meant that it was just a minor House rather than an actual commoner family.

But yeah, as a commoner house you wouldn't own any land. Holders own all the land (or more appropriate, govern the land given to them by their superiors), commoners themselves don't own any. They more or less lease it from the Holders--occupying it rather than owning it. (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Amarr_Empire#Wealthy_Commoners)
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Aldrith Shutaq on 18 Apr 2013, 15:01
Get in PIE Alliance nao, kay?
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Gervas Heidrich on 18 Apr 2013, 16:46
Get in PIE Alliance nao, kay?

Is that an official invitation? The alliance description says it's not taking anyone.
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Aldrith Shutaq on 18 Apr 2013, 17:03
Nah, not official. You can always look into it though. :)
Title: Re: House of Heidrich
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 19 Apr 2013, 10:34
[mod]Thread's being cleaned. Will unlock when done.[/mod]

[mod]Done. Thread unlocked.[/mod]