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[Teinyhr]

The fuck is 'griefdeccing'?

CODE., PIRAT, and whatever it was that corp of yesteryears that had practically half of EVE decced so they had to change the war dec costs years ago to rein them in. Basically zero-effort-zero-risk PK's that wardec everything they see around tradehubs for easy kills.

[Mizhara]

Ah, hubcampers. You know, I never understood the problem with them. It's not like they really have an impact. I've been decced by them many a time, since I've been flying shinies in/near hubs, or they join in as defenders in my wars opportunistically. Haven't lost to them once yet. Five of them once caught me, and I still managed to slowboat back to gate ultrawebbed down to something like 20 m/s. They barely even stick their noses further than the hubs.

Just be a little bit careful and they're harmless. None of them'll ever actually hunt you anyway.

[Teinyhr]

I've not been caught by them once, probably because I don't fly with anything valuable in my cargo, so I don't have a personal problem with them. But as far as I understood those people are the root of the whole problem and the wardec change, though I see you've been already debating that at length earlier.

[Louella Dougans]

Do you not grasp just how poorly you understand the issue? Someone using a freeport or alt corps or whatever else is exactly the same at this point. That's the whole problem. You used to be able to disrupt and target their industry by going for the people doing it, whether they're in NPC stations, freeports or their own structures. Now this is no longer possible.

Npc corp miners, feeding minerals to an industrial management corp based out of structures operated by a freeport group.

Nothing has changed. There was a way to avoid industry being targeted before.

Yeah, what it means is that now you can be completely invulnerable in highsec, while having every single benefit of corporations, while having every single benefit of structures, without running even the slightest risk of facing consequences for actions, words or choices.

Like that didn't already exist before. Only way to avoid that is to ban the transfer of items or isk between characters.

That you don't seem to grasp the issue here isn't all too surprising of course.

well look at you, throwing out obvious forum rule violations, just so you can play the wounded martyr if and when they get catacombed, and whine again about how Silver/Morwen is persecuting you. Transparent as a pane of glass.

[Mizhara]

Miners barely represent a fraction of the issue and you can't possibly be daft enough to not grasp that. And no, there has never before been a way to be invulnerable to wardecs while having all the benefits of corp hangars, corp jobs and so on, all the hallmarks of actually functional industry. The NPC corp has always been a barrier to any real industry and transferring isk/items between characters never changed that the industry still needed to be vulnerable.

[Louella Dougans]

there has never before been a way to be invulnerable to wardecs while having all the benefits of corp hangars, corp jobs and so on, all the hallmarks of actually functional industry.

O rly. Rent an office in a station or structure, you have the corp hangars and corp jobs available. You don't own the station or structure. You don't do the hauling or collection of material either. Once set up, the production management characters don't need to undock. Finished products are handed over to the intended customer. So where is the vulnerability ?

[Mizhara]

... are you deficient? Renting said corp office required being vulnerable. Having access to said corp hangar, corp jobs etc all required being wardeccable. When you have dozens or more industrialists managing multiple industrial logistics chains, including all the material acquisition, refinement, hauling, product hauling, RnD, Blueprint Management and so on and so forth, you're not going to be doing it by individually trading all of that crap between NewbCorp Alts.

You've never actually done industry worth fuck all, have you?

[Silas Vitalia]

You basically just made the argument that people should be forced to play the way you want them to play.

Sorry, but the rest of us pay our subscription dollars, too.  If other people want to pay for my game, they can tell me how I should play the game, but I don't see that day on the horizon, so folks who think I should have to be griefed to enjoy some shiny space pixels can kiss my ass.

I most definitely did not.  It's just that it's been this way since what, 2004? Anyone can dec anyone not in an npc corp for any reason they want, anytime, anywhere. Much of the marketing and reputation of this game pushed by CCP for many years was entirely built around the concept that you aren't ever really safe and that you can do almost anything and that it's all interconnected and what you do matters.  With these changes they are trying to have it both ways, and doing both poorly.   

I've got no problem with new players having all kinds of super invulnerability and protected status and giant rubber bouncy castles to play in for as long as they like.  There's no reason to take a hatchet to the rest of the playerbase when a scalpel will do.

[Garion Avarr]

I scout and chase ARC... well okay SFRIM people 99% of the time but let's call it ARC for now... people around, hunting and occasionally killing them. This is undesirable to them, so they organize, knowing that if they... say Mine X Amount Of Moon Goo, or collect Y Amount Of NPC Bounties or Explore Z Amount Of Sites or Produce So And So Much Value And Manage To Trade It and whateverthefuckelse bears do with their time the war will end because of the mechanic that says "aggressor incapable of pursuing an effective path towards their victory conditions, war declared unsuccessful, defender now have X weeks of war immunity from those involved in this war" or something. They succeeded in this since they organized, scouted and watched their aggressors, coordinated their bearing and maybe even defended it and so on.

Same thing on the offensive side with war goal mechanics in play. Declare war, mechanics look at aggressor and defender and determines some upper and lower bounds, then the aggressor gets to set some war goals like "X amount of destroyed structures, Y amount/value of destroyed ships" and so on. Upon successful completion of the objectives, war is declared won/lost and those involved can't be at war again for a certain amount of time. Add some reward mechanics to both sides for succeeding in attacking/defending (whether it's through fighting or successfully remaining active while avoiding losses) to incentivize activity and you are starting to get somewhere.

That actually would have been pretty fun, and I think a number of us would have enjoyed things if those had been the mechanics.  Not a perfect system (though no system is), but definitely a cool idea.

And no, there has never before been a way to be invulnerable to wardecs while having all the benefits of corp hangars, corp jobs and so on, all the hallmarks of actually functional industry.

While technically true, there was at one point a way to make it cost so much to dec you that no one in their right mind would do so (possibly making it cost more than anyone actually had at the time, if one were so inclined) without, as I recall, paying any of the costs yourself.  E-Uni used it way back when to make ourselves effectively immune to wars.

[Samira Kernher]

I've not been caught by them once, probably because I don't fly with anything valuable in my cargo, so I don't have a personal problem with them. But as far as I understood those people are the root of the whole problem and the wardec change, though I see you've been already debating that at length earlier.

Really, those could be handled in a number of ways (that CCP isn't, of course). First off, any system that would reward people for continuing to do what they normally do would quickly end any war with people who don't bother to do any hunting. Secondly, they could limit how many active wars you can have going at the same time. Wars should be targeted, not bundles. Third, new players should be taught about instant docking/undocking in tutorials. And fourth, when pointed outside of a station, you should not be allowed to dock even if you de-aggress. Anyone camping these hubs with stupid expensive fuckoff ships shouldn't be able to easily dock whenever faced with someone that can actually hurt them. Death to station games.

But no, instead CCP is just doing structure bullshit.

[Silas Vitalia]

I agree with Samira.

There's just... soo much low-hanging fruit to tackle so many of the big issues instead of this. 

The current situation rewards intricately knowing arbitrary and generally arcane game mechanics and exploiting lack of knowledge rather than any sort of skill or strategy fight.

[Louella Dougans]

Again with the personal insults.

... are you deficient? Renting said corp office required being vulnerable. Having access to said corp hangar, corp jobs etc all required being wardeccable. When you have dozens or more industrialists managing multiple industrial logistics chains, including all the material acquisition, refinement, hauling, product hauling, RnD, Blueprint Management and so on and so forth, you're not going to be doing it by individually trading all of that crap between NewbCorp Alts.

You've never actually done industry worth fuck all, have you?

Nope. Renting a corp office never required anything being vulnerable. Vulnerability was optional.

hauling stuff is the only part that is vulnerable to in-space attack. And that can be handled by non-corp haulers.

Industrial corporation A. Rents a corp office in structure owned by B. Hauling done by courier contracts. End user of products is corporation C.

Explain how Corporation C's industrial support is vulnerable to attack ?
Explain how anything in Corporation A was actually vulnerable if they were wardecced ?
Corporation B could be wardecced. Ooo, but what if they didn't exist at all, but were actually a NPC corporation ?


The change just makes A and C invulnerable to non-suicide attack in highsec. If corporation C is a rp militia member, they could be shot anyway by opposing militia.

So what really changes ?

[Silas Vitalia]

We are all going off on tangents, maybe back to the central issue:

How safe should people be able to be in this game, and at what points of their space-career?


Also if a small number of organizations are responsible for 75% of the wardecs or whatever, maybe they could just institute a dec fatigue system like jumping, it would easily slash this behavior while not affecting anything else, solving the problem immediately.

[Louella Dougans]

We are all going off on tangents, maybe back to the central issue:
How safe should people be able to be in this game, and at what points of their space-career?

endgame stuff is safest. cynojammed systems crawling with rorquals, vomiting out materials at a ludicrous rate. materials that allow those systems to be sewn up tight against any potential aggressor.

earlygame stuff has the greatest personal risk, and tiny rewards.

moaning about highsec corps of a few players doing stuff for low rewards, while nullsec rorqual silliness goes on, is more than a bit lol.

logistics ships were a bad idea. Structures were a bad idea. capital ships were a bad idea.

logistic ships make it possible for a large battle to be fought with zero losses on one side. this encourages risk aversion, avoiding fights wherever possible unless possessing the logistics advantage.

structures make a game into a job, creating commitments and alarm clock ops. People waking up to shoot things in the middle of their night, because of stupid structure timers.

capital ships being used to intervene in lowsec frigate fights, suck the fun out of lowsec, act as a powerful disincentive to players.

[Silas Vitalia]

Yea most of that stuff should have/could have been solved with balance and gameplay tweaks :/  They might do well to borrow a bit more from the RTS concepts of rock-paper-scissors counterplay and unit support?  Big expensive shit should only be good at mostly killing other big expensive shit, and even the best things without the proper support ships should be next to useless. In trying to be too 'hands off' with some of the economy and ridiculous accumulation of wealth they've fucked themselves for the sort of fleet fights they show on CGI trailers and that most people would like to participate in.

The null safety thing is definitely an issue that spills out to so much of the rest of the game, distorting markets and sov and fights or lack of fights, it's all tied together.  It seems like there are too many mechanisms in the game designed to make it safe and easy to just pound out the money and resources into huge snowball issues inside your walled-off castles.

Castles and walls certainly would have been nice in the middle ages if the resources inside the walls magically respawned for all the occupants to keep using for infinity and just accumulate more and more 

It would be nice if they had a low ceiling of valuable resources available that were quickly depleted for most of the low and null areas, and for some sort of completely variable and randomized resource wells to spawn almost like incursions across the cluster.  Force people to fight over limited things that changed locations to discourage walling it all off.  There'd be enough of you smart people to figure out a way to make the mechanics work and divide up the types of things so that you didn't just get 2 giant roving bands of blue that would pounce on whatever came up.    Make the regions unique for the types of resources and types of things those resources can be used for.  That everyone can farm bounties into infinity in every region is not healthy.

The game is way too far down the pipe for some of this stuff though, the largest orgs have basically unlimited amounts of cash and ships at this point.