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General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Misan on 21 Oct 2011, 08:58
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http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3001
We couldn‘t just give the Minmatar a new ship and leave the other factions out (NPC military escalation doesn’t work like that), so, in the spririt of mutually assured destruction, each of the factions have sent their best engineers and scientists to the drafting boards and will also be rolling out a new tier 3 battlecruiser.
„But isn‘t the Tornado a battleship?“
According to the original concept it was, yes. But when reviewing the armadas of existing ships we came to the conclusion that it would make much more sense to add another tier of battlecruisers instead of a fourth battleship tier, and that the accessibility of bc skills would mean more of these ships might be in the hands of younger, brasher pilots. That means more pew pew pew overall.
What sets these new battlecruisers apart from their lower tier cousins?
The most unique thing about them is that they will be able to fit battleship-sized weapons. Yes, you heard correctly... battlecruisers with oversized guns.
They will be capable of similar damage output as a battleship but obviously all that damage comes at a price.They won‘t be able to tank like a battleship, but what they lack in the tanking department the right pilot should be able to somewhat make up for with speed and distance management. Those looking to start minmaxing fleets of TÖTALHELLDEATH will have to wait a bit for the stats.
The concept is; violent, fast and fun.
In the following weeks we will be introducing the Tornado‘s three counterparts. Stay tuned!
This is going to be very very interesting. :yar:
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The concept is; violent, fast and fun.
I need a new pair of pants.
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Hurr. The Caldari version with cruise missiles is simply going to replace the Drake as the new meta unless they make the tank weaker and make it a lolhybrid boat. And even then if they buff railguns. And these are going to make battleships even more obsolete unless they wind up costing more to build.
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These should probably be glass cannons as much as possible. I am thinking along the lines of only being able to have a tank roughly the same range as a cruiser built to tank.
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These should probably be glass cannons as much as possible. I am thinking along the lines of only being able to have a tank roughly the same range as a cruiser built to tank.
Its basically the analogue of WW2 Battlecruisers - they have battleship guns on slightly oversized cruiser bodies. Makes sense to me :)
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It's labelled T3. So I guess there'll be a world of difference between the loss of a T1 battleship and a T3 BC.
Also I imagine the caldari one being something that utilizes torpedoes pretty well.
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It's labelled T3. So I guess there'll be a world of difference between the loss of a T1 battleship and a T3 BC.
Also I imagine the caldari one being something that utilizes torpedoes pretty well.
No, not T3, but Tier 3. It will be a Tech-1-ship
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People keep getting T3 and Tier 3 mixed up. Tier 3 is T1. A tier 3 battleship is a Maelstrom or Abaddon, Rokh, or Hype. All T1 but 3rd tier. Very significant difference. The tornado is a tech 1 ship.
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These should probably be glass cannons as much as possible. I am thinking along the lines of only being able to have a tank roughly the same range as a cruiser built to tank.
This could have hilarious results for the Gallente - a fast ship with large blasters? Yes please.
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Ninja Hybrid fix?
Sounds promising, but we'll have to wait and see for stats. I'm kind of imagining a Hurricane with BS ACs, and wondering how it won't be OP if it is at all fast. :D
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It's labelled T3. So I guess there'll be a world of difference between the loss of a T1 battleship and a T3 BC.
Also I imagine the caldari one being something that utilizes torpedoes pretty well.
No, not T3, but Tier 3. It will be a Tech-1-ship
And I was wondering why there was no (rightful) outcry about T3s. Thanks, that makes actually a lot sense.
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So, they are finally going to add actual battlecruisers to the game? About time. :)
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So, they are finally going to add actual battlecruisers to the game? About time. :)
Someone's got their naval knowledge :3
CCP Navigator and a CSM says the Gallente battlecruiser is teh awesome. Good day to be Minmatar/Gallente-trained \o/
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Oh hell yes :D
And yes the idea of the tier 3 being glass cannons is spot on for what BCs should be
/me tries to dig up the post it saying 'BCs should pack BS guns'
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I'm gonna miss telling people the Tempest is the best Minmatar battlecruiser if this holds true. :lol:
Can't wait to see what the other three look like.
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Gankgeddon BC!
Come to papa!
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...as ridiculously awesome as this is, I must admit I'm going to miss the concept of the Tornado/other new battleships as BS-sized EWAR boats.
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A drone battle ship with EWAR for the Amarr would have made my decade.
But it seems like its all about the glass cannons.
Where suddenly the ping starts to play a bigger and bigger part in EVE.
Where EWAR in general turns useless.
Active tanks are already thing of the past, making the passive tank the only viable option, the only option.
I hate to say this, but it was better for EVE that you could not have a 8 heatsink gankgeddons anymore.
Fitting was just getting a stack of sensor boosters and ka-POW, anything was dead in three seconds.
Of course turning EVE into COD with spaceships would bring in more l33tkiddies...
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I'm so sad... really.....
To me the tornado could have been some cool destroyer-sized new class of ship, specifically aimed to do short range gankage with speed and little tank (glass cannons indeed)....
but BS guns on speedy ships? it just sounds as imbalance to me...
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Perfect ship class, needed at just the right time, for the current state of the metagame. Thank you ccp.
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Perfect ship class, needed at just the right time, for the current state of the metagame. Thank you ccp.
I'm curious why you think this was needed? It certainly fits with the current meta, like the prevalence of sheild-nano artycanes. This just seems like it's going to do what people are already doing (because it works and is currently the best strategy) even better. It fits perfectly, just seems like CCP looked at the current FotM and made the perfect ship for it. Which seems to me like it'll just exacerbate the current fast > tanky imbalance.
The only thing I can see it adding that is actually needed is a fast moving gallente ship.
Anyhow, just curious what you meant.
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A drone battle ship with EWAR for the Amarr would have made my decade.
A Khanid battleship with a TD and Torp bonus would have made mine. Or torps and neuts.
But it seems like its all about the glass cannons.
Where suddenly the ping starts to play a bigger and bigger part in EVE.
Hate to break it to you, but if you think the meta shifting towards bigger and bigger fleets has been sudden, you missed the last 4 years of EVE. While it had started before QR, it ramped up in earnest then, and has only been reinforced and encouraged with every major expansion since. And everything CCP has done to advertise EVE Online has been to promote these enormous fleet battles (see also; claims that tens of thousands of players engage in fights together all the time), and next to nothing they've done has helped small gang warfare (these days <20 a side--if you'd have asked me in 2007 or 2008 I'd have said <10 or <15 respectively) at all.
Where EWAR in general turns useless.
This, too, is not a new trend. Damps were nerfed into utter uselessness (outside of situations such as the tourney) after AT4. They've never gotten a second thought, going from one of the most effective forms of ewar in the game to utterly useless even on bonused ships (and the latter part is where the nerf went too far--an ewar specific ship such as a recon should have absolutely crippling ewar). ECM was ushered out when it was forced inside of scorch/arty ranges in boats that can die in under two volleys to either. The fact that it doesn't stack well against large numbers doesn't help either. I'm not sure if the remote ECM burst was supposted to be some sort of large-scale ewar buff, but if it was it failed. Once you get past a gang size of about 20 ECM is approaching uselessness. By 40 it's flat out pointless, as there's no good way for ECM boats to coordinate their jams like logis can coordinate their reps. There are no watchlists where the ECM boats can tell which targets are already jammed, so overlapping jamming will certainly occur if you field more than 1-2 ECM pilots and you're simply wasting bodies at that point. Damps are similar in nature. TDs as well, for that matter (though in truly small-gang PvP TDs are bar none the best form of ewar unless you wind up against a strict missile composition). And lolwebs now that they're 50-60%. I don't think target painters have ever been good in EVE PvP outside of very very specific tailored situations (mostly tourney, again) or when flying things like torp boats, at least not compared to the opportunity cost of fitting something else.
Active tanks are already thing of the past, making the passive tank the only viable option, the only option.
A bit of a generalization, but mostly true. Certainly operating in any sort of small active tank composition (3 or less, more likely solo) without any sort of scouting is playing russian roulette. But in <5 a side groups they're still viable on boats with active tank bonuses, such as the Sleip, Maelstrom, Hype, etc. Generally need faction/deadspace on the shield tanks and/or boosters/implants or a combination thereof to make them truly shine, however.
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the current fast > tanky imbalance.
This makes me curious, and generally speaking I disagree that it's the current meta. At least around Syndicate/Fountain/Pure Blind/Outer Ring/Cloud Ring we see logifleets. By that I mean any fleet wherein the fleet comp is >30% logistics. It's not uncommon to see fleets of 30 with 10 logistics. To me, that's tankier than it is fast, whether it's Hurricanes or Drakes. And generally I think the meta shift towards Hurricanes away from Drakes comes down to utility. At least in the fleets I've seen it used effectively in--Hurricanes with their two utility highslots can fit a shocking amount of cap warfare when comped together, and trying to run any sort of logistics or cap-dependant-anything against a Hurricane fleet is simply suicide unless you can engage from outside of 30km and hold that range on them.
Maybe my area of the world isn't in touch with the rest of EVE, though. We stay the hell away from sov warfare unless we can harass sov fleets or we actually manage to muster a blob (aka, Friday night) and can throw our 50 at their 150 without them re-comping to perfectly counter us (like when Test reships into 40 Scorpions, 80 Maelstroms, and assorted logis/tackle--yes, they did this once when they outnumbered us 3:1 to begin with).
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the current fast > tanky imbalance.
This makes me curious, and generally speaking I disagree that it's the current meta. At least around Syndicate/Fountain/Pure Blind/Outer Ring/Cloud Ring we see logifleets. By that I mean any fleet wherein the fleet comp is >30% logistics. It's not uncommon to see fleets of 30 with 10 logistics. To me, that's tankier than it is fast, whether it's Hurricanes or Drakes. And generally I think the meta shift towards Hurricanes away from Drakes comes down to utility. At least in the fleets I've seen it used effectively in--Hurricanes with their two utility highslots can fit a shocking amount of cap warfare when comped together, and trying to run any sort of logistics or cap-dependant-anything against a Hurricane fleet is simply suicide unless you can engage from outside of 30km and hold that range on them.
Maybe my area of the world isn't in touch with the rest of EVE, though. We stay the hell away from sov warfare unless we can harass sov fleets or we actually manage to muster a blob (aka, Friday night) and can throw our 50 at their 150 without them re-comping to perfectly counter us (like when Test reships into 40 Scorpions, 80 Maelstroms, and assorted logis/tackle--yes, they did this once when they outnumbered us 3:1 to begin with).
I was referring to individual ship fitting rather than fleet comp. For example, current meta favors fleets made of faster, harder hitting ships that are more fragile but can control range (shield arty canes, for example) over slower ships that can take more damage individually (armor BC or BS). In short, shield > armor (gross generalization). And based on the description, the new tier 3 BCs are just going to be even better at this than the tier 2 - fast, high damage, long range, fragile. To a great extent, the current state of the game means that whoever is fastest wins or can simply disengage. If you're outnumbered but faster, you can still fight and have a chance. If you're outnumbered and slower, you're going to have a much harder time.
Exceptions to this certainly exist (sig tanked ahac gangs) and I have little experience in fights with that much logi, most of my recent pvp has been small to medium militia gangs that sometimes don't have logi backup at all.
[semi-related tangent] Personally I think the best thing to make armor tanks more competitive atm would be to remove or reduce the speed penalty on trimarks. maybe make it a mass penalty instead.
Anyhow, it looks like the new tier 3 BC will simply do everything we're already doing (fast ships, long engagement range) but will be even better at it, so that alternative strategies will become even less viable. Hopefully they'll be more balanced than what they currently look like, but I don't have a lot of faith when it comes to CCP and pvp balance.
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Wonder if they'll make good suicide gank hulls. I get the feeling they will provided they cost less than BS.
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battleship class guns = death to battleships and BC's.
Ships seen in lowsec most often = battleships and BC's.
Battlecruisers = largely invulnerable to capital ships
Tier 3 bc's = new supercap murdermachines.
It solves so many problems simultaneously.
Just don't try to take the Tier 3 up against a cruiser. Or i'll lol at your lossmail.
Simply put, it places a counter to the drakes/hurricanes/harbinger/myrmidon blobs within the same ship class that it is countering. This is commonly thought of as 'rock paper scissors' triangulation in game mechanic terms, each counters one other in the chain, but are designed to have the same cost/buildtime/size.
Drakes will be dieing by the horde to these things. And that is a very, very good thing.
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Filling low-sec with a hull type that tracks like a battle ship, tanks like a cruiser, can't fit heavy neuts (hopefully) and a 4th bonus to AFs? Yes please.
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If it brings about a curtailing of Drake spam, I'll praise it as a godsend.
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Ugghhhhh I got to get back into EvE
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Shamelessly stolen from an alliance mate talking about the Talos and 90% webs:
Hello webs my old friend
I've come to ctrl-f1 with you again
Because a spaceship softly creeping
Left its loot while my Talos was griefing
And the Gunslinger CX-2 that was implanted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of deeps
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http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3014 (http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3014)
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Is there a tl;dr for those of us whose shitty work internet has all things EVE (except Backstage) blocked? Would be appreciated.
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Is there a tl;dr for those of us whose shitty work internet has all things EVE (except Backstage) blocked? Would be appreciated.
tl;dr: a wild Gallente glass cannon has appeared!
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tl;dr: a wild Gallente glass cannon has appeared!
SQUEEEEE!!!!!
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From the devblog:
Many of you will recognize the ship model as the Seraphim from the „EVE Online: Create a starship contest“ on Deviant Art. So yes, we have another player creation entering the game this winter! Its designer, Michael Schierup, did a magnificent job on the visuals and we felt that the name „Talos“ would be even better suited for such a beautiful ship. In greek mythology Talos was a bronze giant who guarded the island of Crete and, just like our Talos, he wasn‘t particularly friendly to uninvited ships crowding his turf.
Like its Minmatar counterpart, the Tornado, the Talos battlecruiser will be capable of fitting weapons normally reserved for larger vessels, worrying less about self defense capabilities.
The Talos excels as an “in your face glass cannon”. It will be a particularly dangerous blaster boat, especially with the hybrid rebalancing kicking in at the time of its birth. Think of it as a smaller, more expendable Vindicator, if you will.
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Sisi apparently has a prenerfed version of it. No web bonus. That was about the only thing about the hybrid buff that looked remotely interesting.