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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Mizhara on 23 Nov 2014, 20:11

Title: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Mizhara on 23 Nov 2014, 20:11: So, the Thousand to One story is now pretty old. Four-five years old, ran for a while and ended with a boom. It was a decent bit of RP and the consequences have been felt years after, for a few characters. I quite enjoy that kind of thing. It's a testament to the Eve RP community that character actions have consequences and shape interaction for years to come. Frankly, I love it.

What's less enjoyable is now finding things that have only ever been mentioned in OOC channels or TS on the IGS, along with some flat out lies. Are we really stooping to this shit now? Taking OOC chat and using it IC? Making up lies about other characters is fine. It makes your character a liar, sure, but that's a valid trait to have as a character. We know there were no Republic citizens dying or being sold into slavery, and pretty much everything that went on during the storyline has been made public.

What's not fine is taking Havo's decision to OOC make some isk from the story, in lieu of a "free slaves" button, and dumping them on the market, and pushing that into the IGS as if that was an IC act. I personally don't like it, as I treat the market IC as far as I can, but it's largely up to the person doing something to decide whether it's something his or her character is doing. What I do know for an absolute fact is that it was never done or even spoken of IC. Every slave that didn't die was released. It just happened via the "sell" button instead of the "trash" button, however much I personally don't like that being done.

The only discussion of this that has ever happened was in OOC channels, and yet here we are with it being plastered on the IGS.

It's one thing to base IC hostility on OOC grudges, or OOC grudges on IC grudges. It happens. It's hardly ideal, but we all know it's there. It's hard to avoid and just a fact of life we have to deal with. Letting it turn into something like this is just flat out disgraceful as far as I am concerned and should be discouraged.

Have your characters lie and make shit up, that's fine. It's something I don't enjoy neither doing nor seeing much of, because it tends to lead down to really shitty RP down the line, but it's something that'd happen IC. Let's just try to keep OOC in OOC, shall we?
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Samira Kernher on 23 Nov 2014, 20:15: Selling them OOC amounts to selling them IC, in my books. No getting around that.

That being said, using things IC that were only ever mentioned in OOC chat channels is bullshit, and very bad RP. Expected for EVE players, and thus one should avoid saying things in OOC that people who fail to acknowledge IC/OOC separation will exploit, but still bullshit.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Mizhara on 23 Nov 2014, 20:19: Generally, I would agree with the first there Samira. Still, the player did it with OOC in mind, knowing it's something he'd never do IC and the storyline was concluded with them being freed. This is one of those things where game mechanics and IC didn't mesh and a decision was made. I'd take it IC too, but I don't feel it's right to impose this on other players unless it directly affects me somehow. In this case, all it affected was a guy's wallet.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 23 Nov 2014, 21:56: *edit*

withdrawn now I have more infos.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Louella Dougans on 24 Nov 2014, 00:17: what's this about ?
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Saede Riordan on 24 Nov 2014, 05:13: Quote from: Louella Dougans on 24 Nov 2014, 00:17
what's this about ?

this, (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5234863#post5234863) lol.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: DeadRow on 24 Nov 2014, 05:28: If there is no screenshot of the transaction then just call it out for what is it, rumour and heresy. If there is proof of this transaction then it is just something you'll have to deal with.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Saede Riordan on 24 Nov 2014, 05:44: best way to free slaves IMO? Sit on them, forever. If you trash them, someone will say "Oh you killed them" if you sell them "Oh you sold them" best to just not do anything and stick them in station until CCP makes a 'free slaves' button.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: youcancallmesir on 24 Nov 2014, 05:48: Quote from: DeadRow on 24 Nov 2014, 05:28
If there is no screenshot of the transaction then just call it out for what is it, rumour and heresy. If there is proof of this transaction then it is just something you'll have to deal with.
So much this.

This is the reason Naupy had to resort to blowing up that freighter. Unless it's verifiable in-game, it turns into a game of bang-bang-you're-dead versus no-i'm-not-you-missed. Call the lie for such and let it become its own mini-content.

That said, I do agree strongly with the point you're making, Miz. It sounds like there was a dire need for OOC clarification before anyone's personal storyline got railroaded in a direction they didn't want. Is this endemic?

If you've got a problem, yo, I'll solve it. Check out my beat while the DJ revolves it.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Havohej on 24 Nov 2014, 06:01: Quote from: youcancallmesir on 24 Nov 2014, 05:48
If you've got a problem, yo, I'll solve it. Check out my beat while the DJ revolves it.
I don't even...

Anyway, my post in the thread is the end of it, far as I'm concerned.

OOC (obviously, as this is an OOC forum), as many slaves as would fit into a Fenrir (which we learned by hauling the 1 million units of the ingame item "Slaves" out of Amarr) were "destroyed" with a forged km in which Zuzanna in a Megathron "killed" them. The 1 million units of the ingame item "Slaves" were traded to an alt and sold to NPC buy orders. No way in hell was I going to just welp a freighter for RP, nor was I going to "sit on them forever". Expecting that CCP would never give us a means of turning the ingame item "Slaves" into the ingame item "Freed Slaves", which they still haven't done, I'm confident I did what was right for our tiny corp at that time.

Some people are rich enough to throw a billion ISK at an RP adventure (buying 1 million units of the ingame item "Slaves", for example). We were not one of those groups.

I challenge anyone to identify what alt they were traded to and produce a screenshot of the transaction in any way shape or form that could link the sale of these ingame items into NPC buy orders to Havohej or Du'uma Fiisi in any way, shape or form. No such link exists. The entire thing was handled OOCly for OOC purposes in the same way that Angel RPers who grew up in eve shooting Angel rats in highsec L4 missions deal with their PvE in an OOC capacity.

In effect, what I am saying is: In character, not a single slave was sold or even traded away freely by Havo or Du'uma Fiisi. Deal with it.

Whatever behind-the-scenes RP took place inside the Amarr community at that time or subsequently related to these slaves or Jamyl's emancipation of 9th generation slaves, or whatever else... we weren't privy to and have/had nothing to do with.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 24 Nov 2014, 09:18: RP BATTLE STATIONS! RP BATTLE STATIONS! RP BATTLE STATIONS!

This sounds like a job for in-game name-n-shamin', and pew pewing for the casting of aspersions?
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Mizhara on 24 Nov 2014, 09:40: Any reason there'd be to do the pew pewing would be OOC motivated as far as I'm concerned and wouldn't really make a difference anyhow. I am largely raising this issue to ensure there's clarity on the matter and to push the IC/OOC barrier back into view. This is completely unacceptable behaviour to me and I suspect for quite a few others out there. A reminder of this is apparently needed once in a while.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 24 Nov 2014, 10:04: Looks like IC accusations on IGS to me? That can warrant a few poddings in most cases?
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Morwen Lagann on 24 Nov 2014, 10:12: It's not the first time this sort of thing has happened, nor will it be the last. It is, however, the first time that this particular group of people tried escalating to posting on the IGS while doing it, though. To my knowledge, anyway.

I'm with Samira and Miz on this one (sort of, mixed together). Anything and everything you do ingame can and likely will have some sort of IC equivalent, but beyond the fact that none of it was ever mentioned to anyone IC and the first time it ever came up in discussion was recently in OOC, there's also the fact that for any given market transaction, only two people ever know who's who in the transaction: the buyer, and the seller. Nobody else knows or can verify anything unless someone goes sharing market data, so unless we're going to see some clearly-unmodified photographic evidence or exported wallet data, this is nothing more than (imo) yet another example of the kind of things that destroy RP, because why talk about anything with anyone if they're just going to pull down their pants and drop a heaping turd like that on the forums, right?

Personally, I would have trashed the items ("get it out of my hangar" or "remove it from the interstellar economy") or sat on them. But given the ISK value in a million units of slaves back then, it's not something I'd hold against Havo regardless of what he says happened to them. (Call it livestock insurance or something, hurr hurr hurr.)
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 24 Nov 2014, 10:22: It's an interesting debate for future discussin', IC in game actions.

The IC/OOC violation was clear cut so not talking about that.

Talking about in general x character selling slaves due to needin' isk, is it the kind of thing to be hand-waved?

I think it can go both waves. Say they were freed, get the cash because it was a lot of money, got no issues with that.

Or go method actor and hold em for future RP.

Saying this as someone who has purchased and hauled around / pew pewed 1 million units of slaves for various RP bidness . Gave those ston idiots like 650k people to get off IGS for a few weeks of blissful silence.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 24 Nov 2014, 10:23: @ Miz maybe they don't like you? It can be as simple as that.

Go forth and pew
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Merdaneth on 24 Nov 2014, 12:49: Selling items is IC. If you don't get caught doing it, you have plausible deniability, and you can spin it IC however you desire.

Incidentally: old material never posted on IGS:

The Face of the Slaver: Part II

This is a follow-up to an investigation I started late last year. The basis for my investigation was the placement of several buy orders in Republic space for slaves.

In a period of about two months, over 30,000 slaves were sold to me right in the heartlands of the Republic by 1542 different sellers in batches ranging from 1 to 323 slaves. Most sellers were Minmatar (68%) with roughly equal numbers of Caldari (12%), Gallente (11%) and Amarr pod pilots (9%).

My investigative method was to try and interview each seller and ask them four short question as soon as possible after the sale had been made. I only told them they had sold slaves to me after question number 2. In some cases where the seller was unreachable I send them the question in a mail.

Due to my duty roster, refusal of some sellers to talk to me and language barriers, only a portion of all slave sellers have been interviewed. Therefore I cannot vouch for the validity of the numbers below:

1. How do you feel about slavery and the practice of selling slaves?
68% despises and opposes it
16% is neutral about the issue
14% is in favor of slavery

Most pod pilots opposed the practice of slavery, some were even were outspoken opponents. The last group was usually quite embarassed when I confronted them with their own slave selling practices. Their vehement opposition to slavery was more a popular front than any true comitmment to the cause. This point was emphasized by me catching several TLF corp leaders and a member of an anti-slavery organization selling slaves themselves.

2. Were you aware that slavery is illegal in the Republic?
94% yes
6% no

Awareness was generally high. Only a few newly graduated pilots were unaware of the laws. The vigorous customs inspection helps to reinforce this awareness:

Hugo Din > well i got caught twicw with those slaves so wasn't putting them back in my ship lol

3. Why did you sell those slaves?
57% didn't know what else to do with them.
23% didn't want to trash (kill) them.
13% sold them for profit
7% had no need for them anymore

To my amazement, nearly everyone remembered selling the slaves clearly. Most pod pilots didn’t treat them as 'just another commodity' even though the market mechanisms do. Only a very few showed the typical pod pilot alienation of considering them as non-real people. Most pod pilots simply considered selling the slaves the least harmful way of getting rid the problem of owning some. A few batches of slaves were caught up in general 'hangar cleaning sales', but most were consciously sold.

Merdaneth > Why did you sell those slaves?
Thamystocles > my plantation burned so i didnt need them

4. How did you acquire your slaves?
79% I rescued them from Angel pirates
11% I rescued them from Caldari entrepeneurs
9% I acquired them from other sources

It is clear that the greatest threat to Matari freedom is the Angel Cartel. Slave raiding activities directly related to the Amarr Empire were nearly non-existent.

Conclusions
Most pod pilot citizens of the Republic are aware of its laws concerning slavery. Still, many of its citizens sell their own kin and will continue to do so due as long as the Republic does not provide for an easy way to return legal citizenship to the acquired slaves. Current Republic legal procedures causes tens if not hundred of thousands of citizens to remain in bondage, living out their lives locked up in pod pilot hangars or jettisoned into space for fear of being caught by roving customs patrols.

Postscript
Most of the slaves I bought have since been released to an organization who has experience in dealing with these (often traumatized) specimens.

The Face of the Slaver
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1217598

Tribal Liberation Force corporation caught trading slaves
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1221516

The Hand of Maak betrays its founding principles
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1217606
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Louella Dougans on 24 Nov 2014, 13:03: This thread is as bad as the ones where someone has been seen in space doing something and protests that "they were doing it oocly, not icly".

Have you tried talking to the person involved, to find out where they got the information ?
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Louella Dougans on 24 Nov 2014, 13:17: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1246104

for reference, that's teh original event, almost 5 years ago.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Mizhara on 24 Nov 2014, 13:23: There is only one place to get that information. OOC channels. There is no IC record of it anywhere because it never happened in any IC location.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Korsavius on 24 Nov 2014, 13:31: Ah, Revan...my favorite Sani Sabik. How I miss her :c
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Merdaneth on 24 Nov 2014, 13:35: Quote from: Mizhara on 24 Nov 2014, 13:23
There is only one place to get that information. OOC channels. There is no IC record of it anywhere because it never happened in any IC location.

Well, then just consider it slander.

If you have sensitive information, always keep it under wraps, this is true for IC and OOC channels.

There is a reason people don't give out their POS password to their Titan POSses in an OOC channel.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Saede Riordan on 24 Nov 2014, 13:41: Quote from: Louella Dougans on 24 Nov 2014, 13:03
This thread is as bad as the ones where someone has been seen in space doing something and protests that "they were doing it oocly, not icly".

Yeah, these days I just treat absolutely everything in space as IC. Easier that way.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Louella Dougans on 24 Nov 2014, 14:01: Quote from: Mizhara on 24 Nov 2014, 13:23
There is only one place to get that information. OOC channels. There is no IC record of it anywhere because it never happened in any IC location.

well, like I said, a while back, someone convoed me about the whole event.
[ 2014.11.02 15:45:07 ] Louella Dougans > someone convoed me a while back about it.

asking stuff. I didn't recognise their name as anyone I knew. They seemed to know about the event. Or some parts of it.

So, my guess was someone from a few years back who's returned to EVE, and is poking things with a stick, to cause drama.

could be anyone, given how many people in that thread on the old forums that I linked, seemed to be annoyed about it.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Silas Vitalia on 24 Nov 2014, 14:23: Quote from: Korsavius on 24 Nov 2014, 13:31
Ah, Revan...my favorite Sani Sabik. How I miss her :c

Speaking of, IRL Silas was just overseas on a trip and forgot was in the same city as IRL Revan, and was sad they didn't get a drink and say hello. And you know, plot all your IC deaths.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Havohej on 24 Nov 2014, 15:32: Quote from: Silas Vitalia on 24 Nov 2014, 09:18
RP BATTLE STATIONS! RP BATTLE STATIONS! RP BATTLE STATIONS!

This sounds like a job for in-game name-n-shamin', and pew pewing for the casting of aspersions?
I looked up Valerie Valete on zkillboard. Not worth any further attention.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Saede Riordan on 24 Nov 2014, 15:57: Quote from: Havohej on 24 Nov 2014, 15:32
Quote from: Silas Vitalia on 24 Nov 2014, 09:18
RP BATTLE STATIONS! RP BATTLE STATIONS! RP BATTLE STATIONS!

This sounds like a job for in-game name-n-shamin', and pew pewing for the casting of aspersions?
I looked up Valerie Valete on zkillboard. Not worth any further attention.

(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140519221157/crossoverrp/images/8/84/Shotsfired.gif)
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Havohej on 24 Nov 2014, 16:07: I don't think so, really.

I'm out here killing capital ships. All that character has been recorded as doing pvp-wise is to get on a few kms in highsec with an interceptor. I'm not going to fix my sec status to chase an inty around highsec. I'm just not interested enough in the content generated by that character's IGS post to worry about it any further than the one post I made in response to it - which I only made out of a sense of obligation to address a thing we did 5 years ago.

I'm flattered that it's remembered and remains a thing. That's the extent of my interest.

It's like I said in the other thread people got so upset about: if it I can't shoot at it in space, then it's not a part of my game.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Jace on 24 Nov 2014, 20:07: I'll just echo what others have said. In-space is always at the risk of being taken ICly. There's no reason to just not call the people in question liars ICly since there is no evidence. It is one of the characters that is taken seriously the least in the whole RP community, so you won't have any issues with people believing her.
Title: Re: IC/OOC barrier, yet again.
Post by: Havohej on 27 Nov 2014, 16:36: [admin]Modworthy post Katacombed. Subsequent posts left intact as they are seen as replies to the topic as a whole rather than directly to the modded post. Thread's run its course anyway. Locked.[/admin]