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[Arista Shahni]

As it has been explain to me that "canon" includes IG mechanics (ex. Someone can not shoot at a station for RP reasons and hurt nonexietent baseliners and not cause present capsuleer ANY REAL OOC STRESS IN REGARDS TO CLONES WHATSOEVER) I'm confused.  RP doesn't "hurt" anyone in the long run in regards to ISK, regardless of what mental havok you wreak on their toon.

So if there is going to be an IC/OOC divide in mechanically possible issues, but not in mechanical IMPOSSIBLE issues... it was explained to me (aka blatantly drilled into my head) game mechanics are essentially canon.  it is mechanically possible to execute a corp theft.. I need a stronger explanation that "It's mean."

Call me Devil's Advocate today....

An edit and TL:DRness.... what si more important.. in IC action that could imalct/destroy a toon?  Or a game mechanic/ISK thing hat would implact them"OOC" iskly?

[Arista Shahni]

P.S. Morwen is taking me to school OOCly in TS as to how it happened (as known)... stand by..

EDIT: K, explained!  But TL:DR question still applies

[Streya]

Corp theft is a perfectly valid part of the game, yeah. As for whether or not its IC or OOC...well, there's always some OOC component to anything done IC, right? We guide our characters in certain directions because it pleases us as players to do so, even if the way in which do so a hands-off "let the character develop naturally" approach; we engage in roleplay because it is something we enjoy.

So regardless of whether or not a thief/spy is remarkably well fleshed out we have to acknowledge at least some OOC component to any action taken. As for whether or not the player of a spy/thief character who engages in thievery within the EVE Online meta can be trusted in the future...well, it depends on the player! This is EVE, and people have been known to lay dormant for years in order to ruin a corp/alliance from the inside. I'd say unless I met the player in real life and discussed spaceships over a drink or two, I wouldn't be able to trust them in the future in regards to corp membership/asset access.

[Morwen Lagann]

To explain what I said to Arista: as far as I know, the incident that spawned this discussion involved a player using a RL friendship with another player to gain access to a corporation, rather than getting in entirely or even primarily through IC connections.

Which, to me, means it doesn't matter how you try to paint it, the subsequent theft was entirely an OOC act.

[hellgremlin]

Guys, uhh, shut up for your own good, and delete this thread completely. Advertising how badly you might be affected by a corp theft on an emotional level is the *worst thing* you could do right now. Worst worst worst. You're attracting attention you don't want. Please heed warning, I only issue one and will delete it shortly myself.

Delete the other tread too.

[Louella Dougans]

Guys, uhh, shut up for your own good, and delete this thread completely. Advertising how badly you might be affected by a corp theft on an emotional level is the *worst thing* you could do right now. Worst worst worst. You're attracting attention you don't want. Please heed warning, I only issue one and will delete it shortly myself.

Delete the other tread too.

lol.

[Silver Night]

If the thing you're planning to do is something you wouldn't mention to other characters, then it's IC. If the thing you're planning to do has to be kept secret from other players? It's OOC.

I find out and know a whole pile of stuff that
Not telling a player something none of their characters could know isn't "OOC." I'd go so far as to call it good mental hygiene. In fact, if you care a great deal about a strict IC/OOC divide, it's the almost guaranteed denial, kick, or restriction of roles if the player tells you that's a breach of it - altered behaviour as a result of information you don't have IC access to.

Please don't use "OOC" as a synonym for "bad."

And the rest of the point? About the balance of IC/OOC relationships in most corporations - even RP ones? I'm not talking about not revealing IC information that doesn't concern someones character to them, I'm talking about taking IC actions that affect someone elses character without clearing it with them. Essentially it's Godmodding.

Unless, of course, it's just part of the game, in which case it's OOC and you're doing it to the player NOT their character.

I wouldn't consider it godmoding any more than any other sort of non-consensual PvP. Also, the coin has two sides. If you want to be an IC corp thief, but you know that if you mention it OOC you will be kicked/rejected, and you keep it from the recruiter - is that you crossing some line by not telling them, or them crossing a line by reacting in an OOC way? Should they be obliged to recruit you anyway as long as you don't say anything IC? Maybe in some pure RP utopia, but realistically it makes much more sense to simply not bring it up. That is why in many more traditional roleplay settings all players are not given all the information. You do not announce the betrayal your character is planning once you all reach the treasure to all the other players at the start of the dungeon, as it were. The DM has a screen. If we all knew the story everyone else was going to tell from the beginning, it wouldn't be much of a story.

You aren't forcing them to recruit you. You aren't forcing them to exercise better or worse security. You aren't forcing them to trust you. I don't see even a hint of godmoding.

Expecting there to not be OOC consequences for an 'IC' corp theft isn't realistic either. There will be an OOC component, and it might impact your future ability to get recruited, your reputation both for you as a player and for your character(s).

Anything sort of PvP has a natural blend of IC and OOC, because on some level you are pitting yourself as the player against other players, even while your characters are pitted against their characters. You can't be an IC combat ace without a little skill in in-space PvP. You can't be a craft manipulator of your enemies without some OOC ability to lie your ass off. 

[Esna Pitoojee]

Istvaan... you're drooling a bit. Have you taken your CBD pills today?

[Lyn Farel]

If I remember correctly we have already had countless discussions around godmodding, and what people consider to be rude or bad form in the context of "/me beheads Aldrith with an axe" vs "/me tries to behead Aldrith with an axe", and how to talk OOCly while doing so with someone you are not used to RP on a regular basis.

In such a light, in the case of spying and corp infiltrations, why is it suddenly ok between RPers not to let the choice to the other party ? Because they will never agree ? But then, if they do not agree to be stolen incredible amounts of time and money, isn't it similar to when they do not agree that their characters to be biomassed/raped/whatever suits you ?

Following the same reasoning, isn't corp infiltration and betrayal like godmodding, since it forces your IC way upon others' ?

Not sure yet of the answer, but that's the questions i'm considering atm.

If there are hurt feelings involved, thats understandable.  But there are hurt feelings in anything PVP related. 

If one is hurt by pvp, then he can choose to do something else.

If one is hurt by OOC betrayals, he can choose to play the asocial and remain in his one man corp.

Not sure if both are comparable ?

If the thing you're planning to do is something you wouldn't mention to other characters, then it's IC. If the thing you're planning to do has to be kept secret from other players? It's OOC.

This kind of brings up something I discussed in my first post.

If I am planning to invade some RPer's territory, or gank their next supply convoy - is that something I'd mention OOC to them? "Hey FYI guys, just gonna have fun shooting you up in a couple minutes, even though you didn't know!" No, it really isn't. Are my actions now "OOC"? Even if performing those same actions makes absolute perfect sense in character?

Not comparable either I think. In your case you do not need to talk to your enemies OOCly. In the case of an infiltrated spy, he has to, unless it's full immersionist corp where OOC is strictly forbidden.

[Desiderya]

You push people's shit in. Don't expect a thank you card afterwards.
Now, destroying someones favorite toy is one thing and can possibly be rationalized easier as being a pure IC-act, but stealing that toy/livelihood?
Personal enrichment is always so very tempting, so naturally this'd be much harder to sell, no?

All in all I find the notion interesting - in a very morbid way - how you should say thank you after getting cockslapped by someone. I mean, more power to you, if you can steal from someone and still be their bestest buddy. In the same line, I almost certainly wouldn't give a player known for enjoying ye olde corp thievery thing high-level access in my enterprises, just as a security precaution. Doesn't matter if 'That heist' was IC or not. Want to know the circumstances where I'd do it?
If there would be enough OOC trust and friendship that I would feel secure enough to not get screwed over at the most convenient point in time. And lo, here we are, in a beautifully circular manner at the very point people are trying to make.

[Mr. Smuggles]

Following the same reasoning, isn't corp infiltration and betrayal like godmodding, since it forces your IC way upon others' ?

If it is allowable via game mechanics (and not declared an exploit by CCP) then it is not godmodding.  Godmodding is the act of giving your character powers over other characters that they don't actually have.  The power to blow you up and steal your shit is one I do have.  Such is EVE.

If one is hurt by pvp, then he can choose to do something else.

No, he can't.  if he undocks, I can kill him.  I can lose sec and take gate guns in low, or get CONCORDed, but if you are undocked, you ARE risking PvP.  Similarly, if you share a corp with other people, you are consenting to the fact that you may get stolen from.

So, to avoid PvP, never undock.  To avoid theft, never join a corp.

They aren't comparable.  It's much easier to avoid theft.

[Anslol]

Guys, uhh, shut up for your own good, and delete this thread completely. Advertising how badly you might be affected by a corp theft on an emotional level is the *worst thing* you could do right now. Worst worst worst. You're attracting attention you don't want. Please heed warning, I only issue one and will delete it shortly myself.

Delete the other tread too.

This. Don't show your weak spot, ever.

As for the topic, my opinion is collaborate freely, trust rarely.

[Lyn Farel]

Following the same reasoning, isn't corp infiltration and betrayal like godmodding, since it forces your IC way upon others' ?

If it is allowable via game mechanics (and not declared an exploit by CCP) then it is not godmodding.  Godmodding is the act of giving your character powers over other characters that they don't actually have.  The power to blow you up and steal your shit is one I do have.  Such is EVE.

So I assume you are also of the opinion that "/me beheads Aldrith" is the way to go, and no the other choice.

If one is hurt by pvp, then he can choose to do something else.

No, he can't.  if he undocks, I can kill him.  I can lose sec and take gate guns in low, or get CONCORDed, but if you are undocked, you ARE risking PvP.  Similarly, if you share a corp with other people, you are consenting to the fact that you may get stolen from.

So, to avoid PvP, never undock.  To avoid theft, never join a corp.

They aren't comparable.  It's much easier to avoid theft.
[/quote]

That's true enough.

[lallara zhuul]

So I assume you are also of the opinion that "/me beheads Aldrith" is the way to go, and no the other choice.

Emotes have never killed anybody within the game.

Emotes are emotes, they only hold value that you give them.

I would not compare them to a game mechanic like locking someone and firing your guns, or someone emptying your corp hangars.

[Louella Dougans]

I didn't recruit someone that I had no IC reason not to, because I had found out OOC, some things about them.

vOv