Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silas Vitalia on 14 Mar 2012, 13:30
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*Sung to the tune of Paula Cole's terrible 90's hit "Where have all the Cowboys Gone?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPR108kwNo4
Where have all the slavers gooooone?!
This thing with Cresthill / Manwe today...
I think there's about what, 4 Amarrians now that actually want to carry out the Reclaiming nowadays and not end slavery and hand roses out to their enemies? I really feel for you all.
Amarrians are -soft- these days.
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*hands over a bunch of screws* Here, I think these belong to you. <.< *j/k*
The two you mentioned, I think are the same guy behind the screen. Either way I dunno where they all went. Maybe bored of the game and on break, or they don't like what Tony G. did to PF. Can't really say. Just know that RP in general has been quiet as of late.
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Welcome to RL morality inspired IC decisions and actions.
The only thing that bothers me more about this than all the face-heel-turn Amarr are all their enemies either being huggy-kissy all of a sudden if any Amarr decide to drop slavery (not just the opponents of Amarrians towards them, but it's a great example) or raging mad at them at all times if not. Everyone constantly project their toon's morality (and it often feels like that morality is RL-morality based) at their opponents and judge them based on their ideas and morals, ignoring the fact they speak to someone who might as well have been an alien, because they live in a society alien to their own.
Where did the "respect for my worthy enemy" go? It's getting tiresome to read about toon X bitching at Y for standing up for their way of life and keeping in line for their nation defense then in the next post/paragraph/breath defending their right to do the same. Arrrrg.
Late, I'm off. More detail and clarity on this another day.
And yeah, that guy smells of sacrificial alt. No offense intended, but he does.
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It's the disciples of Ston guy's alt, but that's a whole other topic of "RP alts" that I'm sure we can dump on in another thread :)
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Speaking as someone whose char is pretty tame, it's mostly because the reclaiming tactics of old are no longer possible. If all of the Amarr in the cluster had enough military might to hold off both the Federation and the Republic without State aid, then you might get a few more people willing to play Reclaimers (Not that the state would stand by, mind you, but it's a relatively small delusion to have). As it is, anyone who wants to play something resembling a sane character has to admit that diplomacy is right now the only possible way of getting things done.
Besides which, Reclaimers are more boring to RP with non-Amarrians. Then both sides are just saying "I'm right and you're wrong" over and over again.*
*:P
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The players willing to play slavers have always been a minority among the Amarrians.
It would not be a problem to be a religious Reclaimer and just have verbal jousting with the filthy heathens, try to convert them or just have a jolly good fun watching the monkeys dance.
It turns into a problem when pretty much all the RP interaction that you get is from other players that cannot handle the fact that Amarrians are what they are, so they corrupt the whole culture into something... bland.
This is pretty much going into the urdoingitwrong category, but after you have seen the umpteenth time that an Amarrian has played out an arc with some heathen that performs some minor lip service to the Amarrian culture and religion and treats them as equal after that... you kind of lose the will to even try to portray the mainstream of the culture.
The Amarrian culture/religion was so watered down by OOC stuff when I walked away from EVE, that I abhor to think what it is now.
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First off - confirming that to my knowledge, Manwe/Ston/Theobar are all the same person.
I think it's a combination of things, unfortunately none of which are really condusive:
A: Templar One most recently, but a lot of other things in the past as well derping up our faction's PF.
B: Shrinking community size; it's hard to take an unpopular position if all it gets you is grief and no other people taking the position willing to RP with you.
C: Some of the few remaining slavers who are about are either criminals/hostiles in PF or the "slaves aren't people, they're just property" archetype. Again, it's hard to rationalize support for a religious reclaiming to "save" or "uplift" people when you're lumped in with either someone who is talking in terms of human cattle or people your character has to codemn IC because under canon, they are the enemy. Don't want to be included with them? Fine, but then you run smack into point B again.
D, sweet lord the rape trope. Working from the idea that "rape is a special kind of evil", it seems to be a common thing now for slaves to be raped everywhere. Again, it seems really, really hard to me to rationalize support of a system when it seems like every days someone is subjected to crime that, in PF, the first Emperor himself explicitely prohibited. "That's against the law" or "That's not supposed to happen" kind of falls on deaf ears when in both PF and player-created stuff, slaves are being raped everywhere.
E, as Bloodbird said, RL morality. Welp. That's a thread in and of itself.
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I think my issue is just one more of representation. When 90% of the Amarrian RPers are reformers/liberals, something doesn't add up.
This isn't to say I don't want variety and diversity of characters. I happen to quite like the idea of liberal Amarrians trying to change the system and bring it into the modern age... but that sort of thing would be a rarity, or at -least- not a majority opinion.
There's no real way around this as we are all RL people and not many are that interested in investing RP time being the 'bad guy.'
It's just.... how would the Matari RPers feel if 90% of the Minmatar RPers were super friendly with Amarrians and had no issues with slavery? It's immersion-breaking for me sometimes.
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Jak I'm not so sure, there's plenty of room for -interesting- interaction between conservatives and others, it just has to be thought-out and well done, or heaven forbid, actually limit the amount of interaction between certain RPers.
You don't see Blake, etc showing up to Matari bars or events. EVER. They hold the line and I absolutely salute them for it.
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how would the Matari RPers feel if 90% of the Minmatar RPers were super friendly with Amarrians ...
Been there, done that. Get grief occasionally for things like walking out of a RP party because Esna showed up, or not being interested in social events with KotMC peeps at, being accused of intolerance and all that.
You might not see it from your angle, but some of the complaints by various Amarrian RPers recently seem very familiar to me from about a year or two back. It just feels like Minnie RP is now flavour of the month.
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Silas did her best to give KOTMC grief as best she could for those same reasons :P
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Silas did her best to give KOTMC grief as best she could for those same reasons :P
Good for you! I approve... wait, I mean, Boo, you ebil slaver...
:p
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Hehe, and we thoroughly enjoyed it, coming from you. Or I did, at least. :P
But no, seriously - I think it's all the things I layed out earlier, brewed together to form a toxic brew where those who want to be aggressive slaveholding reclaimers find themselves defending a system which in both PF and common interaction is full of violations literal and metaphorical, while taking grief from virtually every other faction out there and not able to find someone who they can really agree and cooperate with...
Well, that's an aweful lonely place to RP from, and while conflict is all good and fun, constant unending conflict just becomes painful.
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I'm sure being a staunch slaver works if there are plenty of other characters that won't ostracize you for taking that position. I imagine this was the case in ye olde days when the Amarrian RP player base was larger and more unified. By the time I got to the game, a week before Empyrian Age, that was apparently dwindling though. Originally I wanted to play a liberal because I thought it would be a nice contrast to the majority of Amarrian characters since the PF was so extreme, but it turned out that by the time I had quit most Amarrians were as you say. And I thought only Aldy would be like that!
However, I've thought about this phenomenon before, and I think it could be reasonably explained as a realistic outcome of how capsuleering and the Empire work. First off, consider how Imperial society would view capsuleering and cloning. Holders have to give up their titles due to Sacred Flesh, immortality and eternal youth seems to go against nature and God, then couple that with the inherent lack of morality the vast majority capsuleers exhibit and you can assume that Imperial society would not look well upon the position. One would likely have to be more open-minded (or ruthlessly pragmatic) enough to even consider becoming one. Then consider that only rich and well-educated individuals are likely to become capsuleers in the first place. Both education and affluence afford people a wider array of choices when considering world-views, making the pool of capsuleer candidates also be more likely to be liberal than the Empire at large. Then, once an individual becomes a capsuleer, consider the sudden and absolute freedom they then have, both in social interaction and lifestyle choices. They are no longer constrained by Imperial laws about blasphemy and loyalty, and can interact with whomever they wish, wherever they wish. That in itself would be a draw for liberal-minded Imperial citizens looking for an out and would also end up opening the minds of more conservative Amarrians who ended up signing on to a capsuleer program.
These factors, to me at least, make is seem like it would actually be perfectly normal so many Amarrian capsuleers would be so liberal. Also, consider that being a capsuleer is a lot like being in high-school. Popularity for a capsuleer is arguably equivalent to power, as many things are dictated on how many other capsuleers you can sway to do things as you see it. Sucking up to a foreigner or two is not just a pleasant way to pass the time, it is a powerful tool used to gain real influence. A diplomatic and charismatic liberal Amarrian will thrive where a stodgy old battle-axe of a slaver will find himself alone and scorned, except by other stodgy old battle-axes. This is a problem when you want to take down a POS somewhere.
That said, I do find it unfortunate that there are less conservative Amarrians as my time trying to be a liberal lark in PIE was some of the most fun I've ever had in RP, especially when the battle-axe Mitara fell in love with it! The conflict caused truly is fun to play out, and I've also had a desire to play the other side as well. They also technically have it right as the Evelopedia article on slavery states: "Rare is the individual Amarr who desires the end of slavery in the Empire and these are typically ostracized at best, declared heretics as the norm." However, it seems to be the natural progression of things at the moment.
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I think I'd take the opposite point in that it would actually be -less- likely for a liberal / reformist to become a capsuleer. With Imperial institutions being as -highly- controlled by the autocracy as they are, (The military, the top universities) I find it hard to believe that anyone but the most ardent supporters of the system would be allowed to progress through capsuleer training.
I think some eccentric liberal/wealthy holders could maneuver their supporters into those roles, but the rank-and-file capsuleers are all going to be supporters of the system at its basic levels at least.
My 2 isk.
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I think my issue is just one more of representation. When 90% of the Amarrian RPers are reformers/liberals, something doesn't add up.
Heideraan wrote the Pax.
Doriam furthered it.
Jamyl (the 'sarumite' empress) has curtailed slavery, and declared that it will be coming to an end.
The 'conservative' end of Imperial thinking has been under direct reform for some time now from the absolute highest levels.
This isn't just TonyG bullshit either. This is the current direction the Empire has been visibly moving towards.
I wish the conservative Amarr had more adherents, just to add flavor, but anyone surprised by the tendency of Amarr RPers to adhere to the direction thier faction has been going since the game went live isn't paying enough attention.
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I think my issue is just one more of representation. When 90% of the Amarrian RPers are reformers/liberals, something doesn't add up.
Heideraan wrote the Pax.
Doriam furthered it.
Jamyl (the 'sarumite' empress) has curtailed slavery, and declared that it will be coming to an end.
The 'conservative' end of Imperial thinking has been under direct reform for some time now from the absolute highest levels.
This isn't just TonyG bullshit either. This is the current direction the Empire has been visibly moving towards.
I wish the conservative Amarr had more adherents, just to add flavor, but anyone surprised by the tendency of Amarr RPers to adhere to the direction thier faction has been going since the game went live isn't paying enough attention.
So I guess I'm not paying enough attention?
Slavery is just one aspect of what I'm talking about, but I think your points are debatable. Heideran was a peacenick, yes, Doriam was the result of player actions so we don't know how they would have ran the PF if a more conservative holder had won the tournament, and Jamyl did release some slaves but she also launched a new reclaiming, which is by definition going to be scooping in all sorts of new captures to add to existing holdings.
Back to the other stuff though, it's the blunting and changing of what is presented as a domineering, xenophobic, expansionist, and not-very-nice 'Empire' into a kinder, gentler, politically correct faction.
It's their baby, and if CCP wants the Amarr to phase out the slavery aspect then so be it, but it's one hell of a edit to try and pull. The whole religion kind of falls apart, their need for expansion, it's a lot to work around. It's also the central foil for the whole Republic, so you chop the legs off of the conflict between the two factions.
My point being I read the PF and the Amarr are generally xenophobic, haughty, etc as we all know, and I look at the RP reflection of that and random joe Amarrian capsuleer is super best friends for life with all sorts of heathens and outsiders.
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Back to the other stuff though, it's the blunting and changing of what is presented as a domineering, xenophobic, expansionist, and not-very-nice 'Empire' into a kinder, gentler, politically correct faction.
It's their baby, and if CCP wants the Amarr to phase out the slavery aspect then so be it, but it's one hell of a edit to try and pull.
It is, and you're right about that.
But that is what's happening, and it's what's been happening since before game launch.
The narrative arc of the Amarr Empire at launch in 2003 begins with Heideraan VII winning that peace award and trying to reform his Empire. Everything in Amarr's storyline has been about the forces working toward, and those working against, that path, which is espoused in the only book in the game that is a physical item you can carry around (Pax Amarria).
Remember, the New Reclaiming was started by an external invasion. How does a reformer use such an event to meet their ends? How do you keep the hardliners busy?
The Introduction to Amarr as a race when you begin the game focuses on the Rebellion and Vak'Atioth, and the way in which those defeats have flipped Amarr society, and how Amarr deals with the rest of the cluster. Amarr starts the game of EVE on the back foot, re-evaluating everything.
Amarr has the best storyline of all the Empires IMO, because it is very much a monolithic hulking super-entity that is on the brink of transformation, in a Nation that by it's very history and make-up is extremely resistant to any form of change. Aside from insta-Heth in the State, no other Empire has any real progression or direction to it, it seems, which is a shame...
EVE hammers these things into new players with a heavy hand. It's no wonder that the RP-inclined get a whiff of it, affecting the character they decide to make.
On the other hand, I won't deny that some folks are just too wussy to make a strong Amarr who adheres to the Old Ways, and are just trying to make the race more palatable to thier RL selves and ideals, and that shit annoys me. Still, CCP and all the chrons make the case that those sort of Amarr would not only exist, but would be exploding in numbers.
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I think its not only about slavery. Most RP has been pretty stale for the last few years as everyone is mixing together in parties. Minmatar, Amarr, Angels, Sabik etc all coming together like happy families. Totally immersion breaking for me and you will never see me at one unless its faction allies only.
I also feel that people are too afraid of playing the bad guy because they have already set up friendships with most of the RP community via places like OOC and dont wish to cause any harm in terms of gameplay. Part of my RP was to destroy corps/alliances linked with the Empire and how could I do such a thing if my best OOC friend is in those corps? Understandable and why I tend to stay away from mixed OOC channels etc.
Eve used to be a harsh place in the early days and I miss it so much.
Signed, bitter vet/rper. :D
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Back to the other stuff though, it's the blunting and changing of what is presented as a domineering, xenophobic, expansionist, and not-very-nice 'Empire' into a kinder, gentler, politically correct faction.
It's their baby, and if CCP wants the Amarr to phase out the slavery aspect then so be it, but it's one hell of a edit to try and pull.
It is, and you're right about that.
But that is what's happening, and it's what's been happening since before game launch.
The narrative arc of the Amarr Empire at launch in 2003 begins with Heideraan VII winning that peace award and trying to reform his Empire. Everything in Amarr's storyline has been about the forces working toward, and those working against, that path, which is espoused in the only book in the game that is a physical item you can carry around (Pax Amarria).
Remember, the New Reclaiming was started by an external invasion. How does a reformer use such an event to meet their ends? How do you keep the hardliners busy?
The Introduction to Amarr as a race when you begin the game focuses on the Rebellion and Vak'Atioth, and the way in which those defeats have flipped Amarr society, and how Amarr deals with the rest of the cluster. Amarr starts the game of EVE on the back foot, re-evaluating everything.
Amarr has the best storyline of all the Empires IMO, because it is very much a monolithic hulking super-entity that is on the brink of transformation, in a Nation that by it's very history and make-up is extremely resistant to any form of change. Aside from insta-Heth in the State, no other Empire has any real progression or direction to it, it seems, which is a shame...
EVE hammers these things into new players with a heavy hand. It's no wonder that the RP-inclined get a whiff of it, affecting the character they decide to make.
On the other hand, I won't deny that some folks are just too wussy to make a strong Amarr who adheres to the Old Ways, and are just trying to make the race more palatable to thier RL selves and ideals, and that shit annoys me. Still, CCP and all the chrons make the case that those sort of Amarr would not only exist, but would be exploding in numbers.
Well said, Graelyn. Just a bitter lamen on my part for not seeing much representation of the other side of the coin I suppose.
A kinder, gentler, reformed Empire though loses all of its appeal to my tastes though. Ardishapur 2012!
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The whole problem is Jamyl Sarum.
When Jamyl got onto the Imperial throne, I was expecting a conquering queen. Smashing the Elder fleet was a great indication of things to come... and then nothing.
Jamyl releasing the 9th-gen slaves was supposed to fill the Republic with Amarr-faith-adherent Minmatar, creating massive unrest as the "freed" Minmatar go home and start attempting to convert the tribals to Imperial theology. This went ahead until the Abel Jarek arc... and then nothing.
Then again, most of Eve's plot problems can be summed up with "... and then nothing."
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Jamyl releasing the 9th-gen slaves was supposed to fill the Republic with Amarr-faith-adherent Minmatar, creating massive unrest as the "freed" Minmatar go home and start attempting to convert the tribals to Imperial theology.
Preach it.
I was also hoping, after seeing the love Angels were given in Skarkon, maybe a Heaven-and-Hell (all potential puns intended) type relationship would develop between them and the returning Minmatar.
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It's not so long ago that people were complaining that the IGS was nothing but slavers and abolitionists pounding out the same old tired arguments.
Well, you got your wish :P
On a side-note, there was a time when people condemned PIE for being too liberal. If anything, we've become more liberal as time has gone on and yet we're now known as the hardliners.
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The whole problem is Jamyl Sarum.
When Jamyl got onto the Imperial throne, I was expecting a conquering queen. Smashing the Elder fleet was a great indication of things to come... and then nothing.
Jamyl releasing the 9th-gen slaves was supposed to fill the Republic with Amarr-faith-adherent Minmatar, creating massive unrest as the "freed" Minmatar go home and start attempting to convert the tribals to Imperial theology. This went ahead until the Abel Jarek arc... and then nothing.
Then again, most of Eve's plot problems can be summed up with "... and then nothing."
If this forum had a like button, I'd be pressing it now.
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The whole problem is Jamyl Sarum.
When Jamyl got onto the Imperial throne, I was expecting a conquering queen. Smashing the Elder fleet was a great indication of things to come... and then nothing.
Jamyl releasing the 9th-gen slaves was supposed to fill the Republic with Amarr-faith-adherent Minmatar, creating massive unrest as the "freed" Minmatar go home and start attempting to convert the tribals to Imperial theology. This went ahead until the Abel Jarek arc... and then nothing.
Then again, most of Eve's plot problems can be summed up with "... and then nothing."
This, pretty much. The same problem is on the other side of things, where it's all appeasers and weaklings. Still, I am forced to be slightly smug about how the presence of fairly stalwart principles and so on, on both sides was considered too much not too long ago. Guess everyone should be happy now that they're gone. Give it another six months and the Republic and Amarr Empire can ally completely, fulfilling the wishes of the RPers in general.
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Team Best Friends Forever taking on entirely new aspects. :(
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It's not so long ago that people were complaining that the IGS was nothing but slavers and abolitionists pounding out the same old tired arguments.
Well, you got your wish :P
On a side-note, there was a time when people condemned PIE for being too liberal. If anything, we've become more liberal as time has gone on and yet we're now known as the hardliners.
I had the same feeling as I ninja tru this thread.
- 1. IGS isnt the whole Amarr RP community.
- 2. The English-speaking forums arent the whole Amarr RP community etc....
I would even say, that for the german speaking part, that their wasnt never a liberal-economic or liberal-social majority. They were all conservativ, pro-slavery etc... Thats why I still my char a little different, because I thought like the Originalposter Silas Vitalia.... said:
"We've also been without many public Sabik RPers for a while, and I'm trying to do it a bit 'differently' as in less Hedonist, more ruthless cult of power, etc. " (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=741904#post741904)
Just enter Khanid for Sabik, I thought that their wasnt to much Amarr/Caldari Kingdom RPs.
Now to the most important question how I see slavery? As third born I have just my personal slaves, the House-Slaves are owned by my Father, always given form first born to first born. That means I can use most of the slaves and own personaly some, but most of them do I free ride like publics goods; that means Im actually worse than any amarr holder. And on top of that we use transcranial microcontrollers. :P So Im bad, but Im just not useing the IGS.
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As a matter of interest, how big is the German Amarr scene these days?
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As a matter of interest, how big is the German Amarr scene these days?
A RL friend tabis was in one corp... so 2010ish... they had ca. 100 members. So from the german help channel and other places I would say... so activ and people I know... so maybe 30-50ish. One corp I remeber was someting like Kador XXX.... when I have a activ account I can go tru the friend-list and give a better number and corp names. But like me acctually 90% of the roleplaying is ingame, which means less talk, more action (one of the reason I not really join IGS).
But currently the prime-forum (see here (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.eveger.de%2Fforum%2Fforumdisplay.php%3Ff%3D14)) is also a little quiet since sommer 2011. Maybe it is also because, "we" got on the official forum a german sub forum.
Edit:Or maybe so 20-40 would fit better. :cry: By the way Abraxes has a new chronicle out... Pax Ammaria (Chronicle).
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Edit:Or maybe so 20-40 would fit better. :cry: By the way Abraxes has a new chronicle out... Pax Ammaria (Chronicle).
zomg, linkies.
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Where? Not seeing it on evelopedia
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pax amarria chronicle will be here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Pax_Ammaria_(Chronicle))
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Prepare for liberal peacenik sploogewave.
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He has just a tease so far: Pax Ammaria (Chronicle) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Pax_Ammaria_%28Chronicle%29). Maybe he should bring a one-liner like:
- Three great man, a King, a priest and a richman. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOzXsqoJhtE)
- The Big fish eats the little fish. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X66PDW1Mjf8)
- Responsibility come with a cost. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S14rYrSSW8&list=UUQzdMyuz0Lf4zo4uGcEujFw&feature=plcp)
But It will be a intressting one, their are many ways which he can run, a idealistic way or more the Augustus way (moral reforms, conservatism and family values etc...... prosperity and the formal pretence of the republic... in our case maybe some new infos.)
Me personally... I think some stuff will be idealistic and peace keeping, what some are call liberal; which I call idealistic or romantic. Nevermind....
But he, heideran, needs a counterpoint to Khanid II... and most likely It will be a Romanticism Versus Enlightenment (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RomanticismVersusEnlightenment) confict. Or some would say idealistic vs. realpolitk (Idealism Versus Realism).
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I think my issue is just one more of representation. When 90% of the Amarrian RPers are reformers/liberals, something doesn't add up.
This isn't to say I don't want variety and diversity of characters. I happen to quite like the idea of liberal Amarrians trying to change the system and bring it into the modern age... but that sort of thing would be a rarity, or at -least- not a majority opinion.
There's no real way around this as we are all RL people and not many are that interested in investing RP time being the 'bad guy.'
It's just.... how would the Matari RPers feel if 90% of the Minmatar RPers were super friendly with Amarrians and had no issues with slavery? It's immersion-breaking for me sometimes.
I half disagree with the fact that liberals are a minority. Depends what you call liberal I guess, but I mostly refer myself to Kor-Azorites or even Tash-Murkonites. Like in every faction, they are the amarrian liberals : Kor Azor is about diplomacy/conciliation, supporting soft and new amarrian mindsets, but still very respectful of the Amarr way of life, while I see Tash Murkon like the champions of the more practical and liberal family, coming from a self made House of commoners and rich merchants that are probably thinking a little less mainstream and orthodox than even the Kor Azor. This is the way I see things, but they embody what Heideran was, and what Catiz is. Compared to other Amarrians, they are VERY nice guys, quite close to the good guys actually (in a RL morality point of view).
Unless you refer to all lovey dovey amarrians that share not a lot anymore with their own cultural faction ofc. Those are supposed to be a minority, not the former. As Graelyn said, what people read in the PF and the public easy to get info about Amarr is what concerns their OLD WAYS, not the current reformed Empire that is struggling to keep up with modern standards. Which is complicated to balance considering it is somewhere in between the ludicrous out of place reclaimers of old that still think like amarrians used to think even before they took off to the stars, and the now usual so called amarrian loyalist that has lost anything that would normally make him... still Amarrian, with an amarrian flavor that can be felt without any doubt (TashMurkon/KorAzor like for example).
My point and what annoys me sometimes is that hardcore Amarrian RPers seem to forget that the Amarr society has a mainstream mindset and monolithic religion, yes, but that amarrian conservatives are not the ebil slaver archetype we see everywhere. Some characters I really liked were for example Crow, that managed not to be hated by everyone, or even Leopold even if he is an angel. Those characters are not ebil twirling mustache slavers that will eventually end up to be the laughing stock of the cluster. Maybe one of the reasons that amarrian conservatives are less played, because its damn difficult to paint a believable characters like this. Like a lot of similar cases, like a provist, or a corrupted politic, for example. I think it could really be said the same for pseudo "bad guys" of every faction, with the possible exception of extremist freedom fighters. How many of these characters do you see on the roleplaying scene ? I do not see a lot of them, especially in the pirate factions. Which is something that usually makes me more sad than the lack of those characters in the empire factions. From what I see on every pirate faction (blooders and maybe Sansha excepted), does not feel like outlaws to me, but I suppose I just lack of the complete picture here.
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I'll have to disagree with the view that the Empire has actually changed in the nine years since the higher ups have thought about changing the Empire into something more like the other empires.
There are several reasons that are against that, one major one being the length of generations in the upper classes. Only real way of reforming societies in the real world is through education, if you have Holders that are holding the reins in the upper echelons of the society that were educated around the time that the Khanid Kingdom was formed, then saying that they have changed in nine years, to me, is utter foolishness.
Most of the characters of the players have formed their world views decades before Heideran died, in very slightly different society that they are living in now. And as you know from real world, world views very rarely change for anyone during their lifetime. Liberal or conservative, they are what they were raised to.
The same education bit goes for every tier of the society, so basically you may have people that are around 15 years old that actually have been educated for the 'New Empire', the problem arises in the fact that who is giving that education.
Royal Amarrian Institute is/was owned by the Sarum and Ardishapur families, Hedion University on the other hand has always been the alma mater of the liberals, so people coming from that 'lineage' would be those more inclined of embracing the more cosmopolite way of seeing things.
This just shows that the whole education system in the Empire is divided into factions, and the political situation of the who is the Emperor does not affect it.
Other major aspect of the Amarrian culture that is against of the whole Empire becoming more like the others is the deeply entrenched respect for tradition.
Yes, Heideran reigned for several hundred years, but the Pax Amarria thing rose only after the Amarrians encountered the Gallente. After the Rebellion and Vak'Atioth the Empire was weak (militarily) and shaken (morally) so the only option was for the Emperor to push the Reclaiming on the back burner and do the politically smart thing and settle the issues with the new empires through diplomacy instead of Religious War.
Doriam.
He was a joke, he was alive for what... year or two... he really does not 'count'.
Crazy Zombie Bitch Jamyl?
Any Amarrian that has a religious bone in their body will disregard anything that she says and only give lip service so that they will not be ostracized by their peers. They will not certainly change their views so that they will be what she preaches.
The Kor-Azor and Tash-Murkon?
The fact that someone is a diplomat, it is more likely that their dedication to the 'cause' is unflinching than for a common person. They just have the skills to emulate ways of socially interacting with those that are not from the norm, under very rare conditions they will actually even consider that the ones they are interacting with to be equal to them. Case and point the diplomatic missives in Wikileaks.
Same goes double for business.
The Empire is monolithic entity, it does not change easily.
The past nine years in its history has been aberrations and most likely are treated as such by the majority of the Empire.
The veneer of 'civilized' behaviour may be thicker in some parts of the Empire, but it is nothing but the surface, if you scratch it, you will find the old lying underneath.
Just an opposing view, lets rumble.
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Doriam.
He was a joke, he was alive for what... year or two... he really does not 'count'.
That's a bit harsh. He did manage to kick the Blood Raiders out of the Empire after suitable provocation.
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Just an opposing view, lets rumble.
Since the EVE storyline completely ended a couple years ago, is anyone still concerned about arguing about any of it?
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Just an opposing view, lets rumble.
Since the EVE storyline completely ended a couple years ago, is anyone still concerned about arguing about any of it?
Point to Graelyn. Next round! :)
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I don't disagree with this.
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Doriam.
He was a joke, he was alive for what... year or two... he really does not 'count'.
That's a bit harsh. He did manage to kick the Blood Raiders out of the Empire after suitable provocation.
Wasn't it the Aegis Militia that was at the frontline of the conflict?
You can't really be that efficient at exterminating the Blood Raiders if your Chancellor is one.
Which reminds me, just about every honorary mention or a nod from the Empire to PIE was from that exact Chancellor... which kind of taints the whole service to the Empire bit doesn't it?
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Just because one man in a position that few if any will question turned out to be a heretic don't mean the man above him was not effective in getting heretics killed when thousands to millions of them died in the fighting and they got kicked out of their space.
Just because one man is a heretic don't mean that the lip-service praise he offers the loyal soldiers (whom he secretly don't like, but he can't say that loud) is not praise at all, or that it was not deserved - that just means that he was good at hiding his true allegiance and playing the part of the faithful chancellor.
Also Doriam was alive for far longer than just two years, it was not his fault he was assassinated two years after being crowned - that's on his assassin and those who wanted him dead.
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Just because one man in a position that few if any will question turned out to be a heretic don't mean the man above him was not effective in getting heretics killed when thousands to millions of them died in the fighting and they got kicked out of their space.
Just because one man is a heretic don't mean that the lip-service praise he offers the loyal soldiers (whom he secretly don't like, but he can't say that loud) is not praise at all, or that it was not deserved - that just means that he was good at hiding his true allegiance and playing the part of the faithful chancellor.
Also Doriam was alive for far longer than just two years, it was not his fault he was assassinated two years after being crowned - that's on his assassin and those who wanted him dead.
God I hate you :P BloodBird why your are bringing reason in this diskussion? Lets incriminate the victims; those with restricted information... man... Have you never learned from the IGS? :lol: Be offensiv and never apologize, even someone proves it, just than go on the other forum und post there again.... this 1.0 Internet-diskussion.
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That whole Karsoth thing..... it reeks as much as Jamyl. Didn't he have a 'secret' chamber behind the throne room for blood-raider orgy-time that no one seemed to notice or care about? Ugh.
Also with this cresthill thing, if you talk about your RP alt in your own thread ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=955588#post955588) and talk about interactions you've had, does that strike anyone else as a bit weird? Perhaps no more weird than RP in general I suppose, but kind of crosses some line for me. I'd feel like RP alts are just fine but maybe should play in different ends of the pool.
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Also with this cresthill thing, if you talk about your RP alt in your own thread ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=955588#post955588) and talk about interactions you've had, does that strike anyone else as a bit weird? Perhaps no more weird than RP in general I suppose, but kind of crosses some line for me. I'd feel like RP alts are just fine but maybe should play in different ends of the pool.
Or do the exact opposite, make sure the RP alts are tight as hell. When there's no question of them being connected and on the same agenda, there's no strawman stuff, no "who are you actually loyal to" stuff and so on and so forth. Having one on each side of the pool kind of begs the questions of loyalty, infiltration (benign or otherwise) and so on.
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Also with this cresthill thing, if you talk about your RP alt in your own thread ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=955588#post955588) and talk about interactions you've had, does that strike anyone else as a bit weird? Perhaps no more weird than RP in general I suppose, but kind of crosses some line for me. I'd feel like RP alts are just fine but maybe should play in different ends of the pool.
Or do the exact opposite, make sure the RP alts are tight as hell. When there's no question of them being connected and on the same agenda, there's no strawman stuff, no "who are you actually loyal to" stuff and so on and so forth. Having one on each side of the pool kind of begs the questions of loyalty, infiltration (benign or otherwise) and so on.
Ah, I meant other side of the pool as in 'it's a big galaxy out there' and they'd never have need to meet or interact, etc.
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I agree, in principle. It's just hard to ensure that they never do interact, since that can easily turn into a problematic situation.
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Also with this cresthill thing, if you talk about your RP alt in your own thread ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=955588#post955588) and talk about interactions you've had, does that strike anyone else as a bit weird? Perhaps no more weird than RP in general I suppose, but kind of crosses some line for me. I'd feel like RP alts are just fine but maybe should play in different ends of the pool.
While this would make an interesting thread in its own right, I agree.
When I still played, I had no issue whatsoever with RP alts -- on the condition that they're either inextricably linked or as distant as you can possibly get. Mixing it can very quickly lead to strawman style characters, or the impression that you make a character simply to try and "show off" how much better one faction is than another. Whether you intend it to look like that is a different matter; I've seen instances of it happening both by design and by accident. Ultimately, whether it's on purpose or not doesn't tend to change that it is a Bad Thing.
When they're both so far apart as to never meet, this is just as avoided as when the two are definitely on the same side. Even if some twist of circumstance starts edging them closer, there's always the possibility of sidestepping their interaction with some excuse or another. RP alts can widen the scope of potential interaction and so on drastically, but they become vastly less engaging when they're just applied as strawmen or one-use-only dramallamas.
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Also with this cresthill thing, if you talk about your RP alt in your own thread ( https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=955588#post955588) and talk about interactions you've had, does that strike anyone else as a bit weird? Perhaps no more weird than RP in general I suppose, but kind of crosses some line for me. I'd feel like RP alts are just fine but maybe should play in different ends of the pool.
While this would make an interesting thread in its own right, I agree.
When I still played, I had no issue whatsoever with RP alts -- on the condition that they're either inextricably linked or as distant as you can possibly get. Mixing it can very quickly lead to strawman style characters, or the impression that you make a character simply to try and "show off" how much better one faction is than another. Whether you intend it to look like that is a different matter; I've seen instances of it happening both by design and by accident. Ultimately, whether it's on purpose or not doesn't tend to change that it is a Bad Thing.
When they're both so far apart as to never meet, this is just as avoided as when the two are definitely on the same side. Even if some twist of circumstance starts edging them closer, there's always the possibility of sidestepping their interaction with some excuse or another. RP alts can widen the scope of potential interaction and so on drastically, but they become vastly less engaging when they're just applied as strawmen or one-use-only dramallamas.
Very well said.
We all have our little things that bother us of course and I'm just as guilty of some occasionally hackneyed mustache twirling. But rolling an Amarr alt that's gung-ho slaver and then having him find the light and run off to join your emancipating matari alt is just 'meh' to me. But I'm going to take my own advice and if I don't like it, not to interact. Best of luck to him
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To be honest, i have noticed this too, and have tried to "step back" from being too friendly in character to try and NOT be part of "hold hands and dance" RP. RL morality does influence my decisions a lot ICly. Ill try to back off from that.
Does Ava have Amarrian friends? Yep.
Does she want a peaceful end to the war? Yep. She also dosent see it actually happening.
Does she put needs of Clan/Tribe/Corp/Militia ahead of those desires? Yep.
Its hard to be the "good guy" (Which i also try to avoid) without "bad guys". The reclaiming aspect has been lost among people who 1) just want slaves "cause its business" or 2) are just sadists.
Ill do my part to be more heathenish and savage. I promise!
That being said, whoever's alt came in the Summit last night and zeroed in on me... kudos. Keep it up!
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I've noticed this in general. People seem to have trouble playing their role 'against' someone they like OOCly, which leads to all this happy-family RP, where characters who do stick consequently to their beliefs ( and antipathies ) are frowned upon.
Obviously, no one wants to have a channel like the summit degrade into smacktalk heaven, and lots of the hot topics have indeed been discussed hundreds of times. But that shouldn't lead to agreeing to disagree, then sharing a sandwhich?
I let Des have a go at some characters regularily, but never because I dislike the players OOCly. If I do dislike someone, I simply don't play/interact with them.
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Here's my take on being friends with everyone in EVE.
Good friends are good, good enemies are great. Good friends in EVE will make you log on and chat, while good enemies in EVE will make you log on and undock.
I pick my RP enemies much, much more carefully than my RP friends, because they will have a greater impact on my game overall. In short, theyre often more important.
Do I like them OOC? Undoubtedly. Thats why I want to play this game against them. Its like poker, its more fun when playing against your friends.
EVE, at its best, should be about conflict and competition. Generally, the people who try to be friends with everyone in the game IC often find their way out of the game, for lack of anything to do. Theres a reason for that.
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Tsch, I've had people disliking/hating me OOC when all I've ever done is interact with them IC. Requires two to tango, I suppose
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Which reminds me, just about every honorary mention or a nod from the Empire to PIE was from that exact Chancellor... which kind of taints the whole service to the Empire bit doesn't it?
The amount of praise we've received from people who aren't Karsoth is probably greater than the praise received by any other loyalist corp.
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Here's my take on being friends with everyone in EVE.
Good friends are good, good enemies are great. Good friends in EVE will make you log on and chat, while good enemies in EVE will make you log on and undock.
I pick my RP enemies much, much more carefully than my RP friends, because they will have a greater impact on my game overall. In short, theyre often more important.
Do I like them OOC? Undoubtedly. Thats why I want to play this game against them. Its like poker, its more fun when playing against your friends.
EVE, at its best, should be about conflict and competition. Generally, the people who try to be friends with everyone in the game IC often find their way out of the game, for lack of anything to do. Theres a reason for that.
That's good advice.
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Tsch, I've had people disliking/hating me OOC when all I've ever done is interact with them IC. Requires two to tango, I suppose
I think part of the reason for that is that Seriphyn comes across, to me, his supposed ally, as hypocritical, overly judgemental (more so then the amarrians in some cases) and generally kind of a douchy guy. There's of course nothing wrong with him being that way, it just makes it hard for the suppose allies to agree with him when he's being annoying like that, and the way he comes across, people often interpret as an attack on the way the roleplay. Like him being really judgemental of the genemodders, sure, its probably just an IC bias and you don't actually have a problem with them, since they are canon and all, but it comes across as 'your RP is invalid and I'm going to judge you for it'
I try very hard to keep Kikia on moderately pleasant terms with Seriphyn, since he's in a friendly militia, but you don't make it easy.
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Nonsense! Inhonores is the height of civility and decorum, at least in all my IC interactions ;)
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Hey... so if/when I come back and ressurect KotMC into a not-so-nice doom squad, who wants to be my arch nemeses?
/me gives Ava and her band the look.
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Hey... so if/when I come back and russrect KotMC into a not-so-nice doom squad, who wants to be my arch nemeses?
/me gives Ava and her band the look.
ooh ooh, pick me! pick me!
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Leeroying off topic, Aldrith, there are currently three minmatar militia RP alliance. Electus Matari, White-Lotus, formed a few days ago by Huang Yinglong and us (Teraa Matar) and Defiant Legacy, formed a few days ago by Murientor Tribe and The Wings of Maak. So now we have Moderates (W-L), hardcore tribalists (DL) and EM somewhere in the middle. Yay. :D
So really you can take your pick.
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Leeroying off topic, Aldrith, there are currently three minmatar militia RP alliance. Electus Matari, White-Lotus, formed a few days ago by Huang Yinglong and us (Teraa Matar) and Defiant Legacy, formed a few days ago by Murientor Tribe and The Wings of Maak. So now we have Moderates (W-L), hardcore tribalists (DL) and EM somewhere in the middle. Yay. :D
So really you can take your pick.
Quite alright. I'm a big fan of Leeroy and the important work that he does :)
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Interesting, worthy enemies abound it seems.
But yes, I think for me to stay in the game the second time around I'll need some good, solid enemies that I can RP with. Looks like some fun prospects.
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I find Seri to be a very deep character, tbh. While he may lose himself in a lot of chauvinist/unconscously condescendings remarks he also makes a lot of witty/insightful comments, lost in the middle.
Hey... so if/when I come back and russrect KotMC into a not-so-nice doom squad, who wants to be my arch nemeses?
/me gives Ava and her band the look.
/me gives Aldrith the look.
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*Gives KOTMC and TRA the look.
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wait, I thought we were the tribalists, EM were the liberals, the DL were the tribal supremacists?
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wait, I thought we were the tribalists, EM were the liberals, the DL were the tribal supremacists?
Does it matter? Far as the Amarr are concerned you are all Matari scum ;)
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wait, I thought we were the tribalists, EM were the liberals, the DL were the tribal supremacists?
Does it matter? Far as the Amarr are concerned you are all Matari scum ;)
Of course it matters. We used to have a wonderful time bitching at U'K back in the day (and vice versa).
Scope for roleplayed interaction with targets is a tad limited. Outside of ceasefires around major disasters you tend to be too busy trying to kill them. There is a lot more scope in bickering with allies who have a slightly different point of view, but who aren't so opposed as to become targets.
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When I joined the tribe we were having daily plex fights and 1v1s with 1PG as both sides fought to capture systems.
But over time more and more pilots gave up plexing as a waste of time so less reclaiming and less liberating is being done.
Hopefully CCP will make system occupancy worth something which will kick off the RP again.
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wait, I thought we were the tribalists, EM were the liberals, the DL were the tribal supremacists?
Does it matter? Far as the Amarr are concerned you are all Matari scum ;)
Of course it matters. We used to have a wonderful time bitching at U'K back in the day (and vice versa).
Scope for roleplayed interaction with targets is a tad limited. Outside of ceasefires around major disasters you tend to be too busy trying to kill them. There is a lot more scope in bickering with allies who have a slightly different point of view, but who aren't so opposed as to become targets.
I should re-phrase the above so my meaning is clear; what does it matter [to the Amarr]? There is little difference to them what you do, if you are all still fundamentally so similar in goals as to oppose them. As for intra-factional bitching, that's what livens up the scene for all participants. Sadly there were not much of that for me on the fed side of things. That may be because the fed is so diverse people just agreed to disagree on the small things and stood more united on the big ones.
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. Sadly there were not much of that for me on the fed side of things. That may be because the fed is so diverse people just agreed to disagree on the small things and stood more united on the big ones.
A few people have claimed, and I tend to agree, that faction warfare has tended to submerge most of the small arguments between people on the same side, because when it comes down to it, those details can be sorted out after we win the war, for if we lose, then sorting them out isn't terribly meaningful.
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I actually take the IC and OOC stance that the 'Faction Wars' are pretty meaningless. It's Capsuleers expending their resources against other Capsuleers with little direct investment from the empires.
The early News articles about how the emergency militia act works indicated that the empires basically agreed to put on a meaningless dog and pony show to keep their people happy and assure them that 'something' is being done to avenge X.
After that it seemed that there were three different Devs/ISD writing PF and they each had a seperate view on how meaningful the FW was meant to be.
I choose to accept the meaningless version since for the price of a single rifter a capsuleer could have a few thousand families moved into high-sec, set up with good jobs and a place to live doing a hundred times more good for his or her people than they ever could in a capsule fit rifter. The argument that a capsuleer is fighting to protect the people living in low-sec doesn't hold up.
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I've taken the OOC view (which Celeste shares ICly to some extent) that faction warfare was something hastily devised by CONCORD in an effort to keep the capsuleers distracted and divided over national interests instead of uniting to finish the work the Thukker-Elder fleet began at Yulai.
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I've taken the OOC view (which Celeste shares ICly to some extent) that faction warfare was something hastily devised by CONCORD in an effort to keep the capsuleers distracted and divided over national interests instead of uniting to finish the work the Thukker-Elder fleet began at Yulai.
This, both IC and OOC. Repentence will quite happily go on at length about the sheer stupidity of FW. It's an excellent way to distract the 'ooh shiny' tendencies of the average capsuleer. The fact that absolutely nothing has happened since it started (unless you count the song and dance when the Caldari won their entire warzone for a time) kind of confirms that - hell, the Caldari thing was the exception that proves the rule. How much more of a 'win' do you get than eradicating all meaningful Gallente resistence?
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I'd really like to start a semi-sarcastic IC cult that is based on the logical conclusion that everything that happens in the game world exists for no other reason than the entertainment for the Capsuleer Class. That the whole universe is, in fact, something like a video game, just a very immersive one.
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Off topic leeroy complete >.>
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A personal player dislike for FW doesn't negate the fact that warfighting occurs regularly between the empire navies 'under the radar', both planetside (http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/Seriphyn/1.png) and in space.
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Seri,
The content 'team' within CCP haven't had any sort of oversight from upper management since 2006. Any involvement by the Devs has pretty much been volunteer work and not their primary job. Nor has there been any sort of co-ordination between those volunteers. Some of the people writing 'PF' lean toward your pet theory and some toward mine, some lean toward something else. Arguing over the 'truth' is pointless because every new piece of PF contradicts the last six. Eve PF is broken and hasn't made any sense for over half a decade.
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it became less visible, because people like to race to the bottom.
angel cartel, sansha, blood raider, those factions keep slaves, are open about it. People consider those factions "cool", so don't get the same amount of cheap shots fired at them
imperial slavers, people are very quick to say such things as "is that what the priest said when they raped you?"
So, people playing imperial slavers, tend to get bored of that same dull cheap nonsense, so tend to disappear from the public communal mudwrestling pit that is "the summit" or the IGS.
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Lou put it well, I feel. I don't know the Empire RP community especially intricately, but I have noticed in the past a lot of fairly solid attempts at casually making reference to slave holding in an Imperial context -- not the hackneyed "I r ebil Holder" stuff, just the kind of casual reference you might expect from someone who's been born into a society where it's normal and lived their all their life -- and immediately been set upon by the "omg, die slaver!" crowd and / or the "lol, pedopriest" arguments.
Not entirely how I like to see things done, really, given that it does tend to bore the people playing it (either out of that trope or out of publically RPing in general), but, apparently, people like it enough to do it each time such a character appears. There are exceptions who don't get pounced upon so hard or don't give it up, but in my experience they are in a minority.
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it became less visible, because people like to race to the bottom.
angel cartel, sansha, blood raider, those factions keep slaves, are open about it. People consider those factions "cool", so don't get the same amount of cheap shots fired at them
imperial slavers, people are very quick to say such things as "is that what the priest said when they raped you?"
So, people playing imperial slavers, tend to get bored of that same dull cheap nonsense, so tend to disappear from the public communal mudwrestling pit that is "the summit" or the IGS.
This.
Even my character had to deal with that shit. I mean, what the hell...
Then pissed Amarrians end up eventually to answer "What the hell are you so concerned about imperial slavery ? At least, we have rules. Why dont you go drag in the mud all the angels and pirates on this forums too ?", and they get answered "You slaver moron", or they just ignore the argument.
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... wait, so they wanted to be slavers without being called out on being a slaver? Idungetit.
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Nevermind. Just read what Lou said much better than me.
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... wait, so they wanted to be slavers without being called out on being a slaver? Idungetit.
No. Difference between calling out, and race to the bottom.
"I am a Holder"
"Slavery is morally wrong, for the following reasons: (argument that is reasonably well constructed, given worldview of character speaking, and provides scope for more RP)"
vs
"You're a slaver eh? that's because you were abused by priests, wasn't it? and so you've become an abuser yourself"
which is... an RP dead end, amongst other things.
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Huh. Well, as most should know, Miz was probably the most fervent slaver-hater out there but even she didn't go the cheap-shot route. All slavers were still an enemy without question, but the pedophile/priest/religion route is just... well, frankly it doesn't fit PF to begin with. I never saw that stuff, really.
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it comes and goes, but happens enough for a tendency towards the player thinking "this isn't fun, I'll go do something else".
And, like I said, there is an oddity, esp. comparing the blood raider rpers to the imperial rpers.
the blood raiders, according to pf such as "the burning life" book, are at least as religious as any Imperial crusader, and treat their captives rather... poorly...
you can argue the truth/falseness of Imperial orthodox slavery as a character-building exercise vs a sham to provide cheap labour. There is really not the same argument to be made about the blood raiders. Human farms, mass cloning for sacrifices, and so forth.
And yet, people don't go the cheap shot route with the blood raider rpers. It is odd.
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... there are Blood Raider RPers? The thing is, though, a lot of these pirate/fringe people aren't really counted as significant enough to really get worked up about. When in EM I kept pointing and yelling at the various corps full of people Matari should by all accounts want to turn into so much space vapor but the response was pretty much always "Yeah... but they're too small.".
The only 'enemies' of any significant size has always been the Empire loyalists, so they're the ones the effort goes against. Well, used to be. I'm kind of out of the loop now.
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There's also easier shots to be made. Not to mention it's harder to make cute comments at someone doing it for teh ebilz than someone trying to be upright and reasonable about it.
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The other thing is, in a lot of cases, it seems like the upright and reasonable slavers all face the issue of having morality argued at them endlessly. Eventually something has to give, and generally it gives with the Imperial player leaving the Empire and 'learning the error of his ways' in order to really get past that, they need to either have blinders on, be zealots who can't be reasonably argued with, or assholes who do it partly to be assholes.
I mean, I've found that when an new amarrian RPer comes onto the scene, the first conversation about them in corp chat generally ends up being about whether or not they could be talked down from their slaver ways.
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it became less visible, because people like to race to the bottom.
angel cartel, sansha, blood raider, those factions keep slaves, are open about it. People consider those factions "cool", so don't get the same amount of cheap shots fired at them
imperial slavers, people are very quick to say such things as "is that what the priest said when they raped you?"
So, people playing imperial slavers, tend to get bored of that same dull cheap nonsense, so tend to disappear from the public communal mudwrestling pit that is "the summit" or the IGS.
Chiming in from the Sansha side :
Our most common issue we encounter is the ridiculous comparison to the Borg from Star Trek. While this doesn't stem from the same moral bucket scraping as 'priest rapists lolo', it can lead to the same levels of frustration and disinclination to be involved with non-Sansha people because they only see the Borg cardboard cut outs.
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Well, I like to think that Nico has some good arguments for her keeping slaves. All in all, I tried to go a middle way with her between pro-slavery and contra-slavery. Reforms to the system? Yes, most certainly. Abolishing it? What the hell are you thinking?
Still, I left EVE. Which had several reasons:
1. SW:TOR - Quite honestly, I had neither time nor money to keep up the EVE account as well.
2. People running around presenting Amarr as "Space-Catholics".
3. People running around presenting Amarr as "Space-Nazis".
Especially the latter two are time and again immersion-breaking for me.
This starts with the "is that what the priest said when they raped you?" Lou mentioned and ends with people citing the Bible as Amarrian Scripture and people simply assuming that the Amarrian concept of God is just the same as catholic doctrine dictates (The three A's). Something experienced coming from both sides of the Amarr/Minmatar divide.
It's roughly the same with the "Space-Nazi" or the "Sansha=Borg" thing, though it's oftentimes more subtle. The fact that there are similarities doesn't mean they are the same or make the comparison any less ridiculous. I imagine Caldari get to hear that too, since Heth.
For me, it's not just a thing of "race to the bottom", dullness nonsense and resulting boredom. The immersion isn't broken because I'm bereft of meaningful replies to "is that what the priest said when they raped you?", but mainly, because I'm immediately pulled out of character and think to myself something like: "If you have quarrels with that, go argue with a catholic priest."
Religion, freedom, slavery, racism, Democracy vs Dictatorship are topics that are hot. All of them touch the Amarr to some degree. That what makes them so interesting. On the other hand, though, it really gets dull when people push those debates pertaining to these topics on you, which they should rather have with the people in RL they aim at.
P.S.: As far as I can tell "all those slavers", that are "gone", are IC'ly either minding their planetside business or went to Angels / turned to Sani Sabik-ism.
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I feel for you lot. But I wouldn't say Amarrians are the space nazis. This is reserved for the caldari, since it is commonly known that everyone who is slightly patriotic is fascist and it's even more commonly known that said fascists do evil things like deport and detain people at random.
It's a bit tiring, to say the least.
Our most common issue we encounter is the ridiculous comparison to the Borg from Star Trek.
Yeh, the 'Everyone's a brainwashed slave, so what you are saying is worth nothing.' is indeed stupid when refering to you capsuleer lot ( and to some extent, the true citizen thing ).
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Well, I like to think that Nico has some good arguments for her keeping slaves. All in all, I tried to go a middle way with her between pro-slavery and contra-slavery. Reforms to the system? Yes, most certainly. Abolishing it? What the hell are you thinking?
Still, I left EVE. Which had several reasons:
1. SW:TOR - Quite honestly, I had neither time nor money to keep up the EVE account as well.
2. People running around presenting Amarr as "Space-Catholics".
3. People running around presenting Amarr as "Space-Nazis".
Especially the latter two are time and again immersion-breaking for me.
This starts with the "is that what the priest said when they raped you?" Lou mentioned and ends with people citing the Bible as Amarrian Scripture and people simply assuming that the Amarrian concept of God is just the same as catholic doctrine dictates (The three A's). Something experienced coming from both sides of the Amarr/Minmatar divide.
It's roughly the same with the "Space-Nazi" or the "Sansha=Borg" thing, though it's oftentimes more subtle. The fact that there are similarities doesn't mean they are the same or make the comparison any less ridiculous. I imagine Caldari get to hear that too, since Heth.
For me, it's not just a thing of "race to the bottom", dullness nonsense and resulting boredom. The immersion isn't broken because I'm bereft of meaningful replies to "is that what the priest said when they raped you?", but mainly, because I'm immediately pulled out of character and think to myself something like: "If you have quarrels with that, go argue with a catholic priest."
Religion, freedom, slavery, racism, Democracy vs Dictatorship are topics that are hot. All of them touch the Amarr to some degree. That what makes them so interesting. On the other hand, though, it really gets dull when people push those debates pertaining to these topics on you, which they should rather have with the people in RL they aim at.
P.S.: As far as I can tell "all those slavers", that are "gone", are IC'ly either minding their planetside business or went to Angels / turned to Sani Sabik-ism.
First nice summarisation, I for myself on a break of EVE. But I have still a activ account on SWTOR, totally forget that I got a free month, so I have some time left.
About:
"1. SW:TOR - Quite honestly, I had neither time nor money to keep up the EVE account as well."
I understand this point for me was it the time factor, when I have barely the time for one game, why should I play two. But... A huge but... I think most people forget that SWTOR is just a themepark mmo, which gets most likely boring when you hit lvl 50 and it starts to get work and people lost fun if it; because it just becomes to a daily rating-fest. Thats why have already said, that if Im tru the content I leave. So far I can say the game is fun, I love the Imperial Agent, BH, SW... the trooper is more for peolpe which like space mariens etc..... Long story short it isnt a game which can hold me for long, which isnt a problem, so a one-night-stamd from time to time can be fun.
About:
"2. People running around presenting Amarr as "Space-Catholics". and
3. People running around presenting Amarr as "Space-Nazis"."
I can feel you. I think, others and I (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3099.msg46476#msg46476) have already mention this problem. And peolpe shouldnt forget Im a outsider on that issue and even I see that clear as a problem. Most likely you will see in months the first Minmatar RPlers, which than start to bitch that their enemys are just to one dimensional.
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The other thing is, in a lot of cases, it seems like the upright and reasonable slavers all face the issue of having morality argued at them endlessly. Eventually something has to give, and generally it gives with the Imperial player leaving the Empire and 'learning the error of his ways' in order to really get past that, they need to either have blinders on, be zealots who can't be reasonably argued with, or assholes who do it partly to be assholes.
I mean, I've found that when an new amarrian RPer comes onto the scene, the first conversation about them in corp chat generally ends up being about whether or not they could be talked down from their slaver ways.
There is a huge difference between reasonable slavers and amarrian anti slavers. The latter may eventually leave the Empire often, but not the former. Examples are legion, like Esna, Nicoletta, etc.
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Chiming in from the Sansha side :
Our most common issue we encounter is the ridiculous comparison to the Borg from Star Trek. While this doesn't stem from the same moral bucket scraping as 'priest rapists lolo', it can lead to the same levels of frustration and disinclination to be involved with non-Sansha people because they only see the Borg cardboard cut outs.
If it makes you feel better, Ive always thought youre way more Hugh than Locutus. :D
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My impression of Sansha RPers has always been less Borg, more Andrew Ryan-style transhumanists with an "above good and evil" worldview...and insidious propaganda to conceal the fact that the tech more or less Borgs you (Borg is still a terrible analogy but I can't think of an easy fictional parallel that's accurate. Manchurian agent?). But my impression is very pre-Incursion and might be outdated. The propaganda worked when Sansha himself was dormant, presumed dead, I dunno how it would fly after he revealed himself and staged mass kidnappings.
(And yes, Faraelle the humanist was in there with the "this is insidious and dangerous propaganda, don't fall for it!" routine, and I may or may not have had some OOC friction with Sansha RPers over the subject of whether there was any PF basis for their playstyle. There's things I'll never know precisely because she's a humanist and would never get near enough to them to find out.)
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My point being I read the PF and the Amarr are generally xenophobic, haughty, etc as we all know, and I look at the RP reflection of that and random joe Amarrian capsuleer is super best friends for life with all sorts of heathens and outsiders.
I don't think Merdaneth is friends with any kind of heathens and outsiders. He doesn't go to bars or gatherings, and tends to be very concerned with his own particular views and agenda's. The Summit is usually a bit of the kind of "hi, how are you today? Why, your hair looks lovely, where did you get that oufit? Did you hear the latest rumor about A and B?" I get the sense a lot of people 'phase out' whenever I start *yet another* religiously or culturally focused debate.
Most players in EVE are just looking to chill and do some low-level RP. Amarrians vs. outsiders RP tends to be a bit one-dimensional especially because you speak an entire other languages. Merdaneth is doing his best to at least to appear to respect opinions of subhumans, but being haughty and xenophobic surely makes RP opportunities more shallow and often negative.
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My point being I read the PF and the Amarr are generally xenophobic, haughty, etc as we all know, and I look at the RP reflection of that and random joe Amarrian capsuleer is super best friends for life with all sorts of heathens and outsiders.
I don't think Merdaneth is friends with any kind of heathens and outsiders. He doesn't go to bars or gatherings, and tends to be very concerned with his own particular views and agenda's. The Summit is usually a bit of the kind of "hi, how are you today? Why, your hair looks lovely, where did you get that oufit? Did you hear the latest rumor about A and B?" I get the sense a lot of people 'phase out' whenever I start *yet another* religiously or culturally focused debate.
Most players in EVE are just looking to chill and do some low-level RP. Amarrians vs. outsiders RP tends to be a bit one-dimensional especially because you speak an entire other languages. Merdaneth is doing his best to at least to appear to respect opinions of subhumans, but being haughty and xenophobic surely makes RP opportunities more shallow and often negative.
I wouldn't dream of counting Merdaneth in the 'super best friends' Amarrian category :)
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My point being I read the PF and the Amarr are generally xenophobic, haughty, etc as we all know, and I look at the RP reflection of that and random joe Amarrian capsuleer is super best friends for life with all sorts of heathens and outsiders.
I don't think Merdaneth is friends with any kind of heathens and outsiders. He doesn't go to bars or gatherings, and tends to be very concerned with his own particular views and agenda's. The Summit is usually a bit of the kind of "hi, how are you today? Why, your hair looks lovely, where did you get that oufit? Did you hear the latest rumor about A and B?" I get the sense a lot of people 'phase out' whenever I start *yet another* religiously or culturally focused debate.
Most players in EVE are just looking to chill and do some low-level RP. Amarrians vs. outsiders RP tends to be a bit one-dimensional especially because you speak an entire other languages. Merdaneth is doing his best to at least to appear to respect opinions of subhumans, but being haughty and xenophobic surely makes RP opportunities more shallow and often negative.
I wouldn't dream of counting Merdaneth in the 'super best friends' Amarrian category :)
I don't know. He kited some Imperial Navy slaver escorts for me once. I'd call that friendly. :lol:
This was inside the Republic I hasten to add. He was there to witness navy involvement with illegal slave taking and didn't fire a shot.
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1) Tarunik comes from a rather...twisted political background in the first place, which wound up putting him in the "pragmatic Nefantar/very liberal Tash-Murkon" area the best I can tell: he is far more strongly opposed to Holders who abuse Amarrian theology to get a source of cheap menial labor (and with this Vitoc, physical abuse of slaves, ...) than he is to Amarrian theological "yoking" (to distinguish it from economic slavery), and wants the Amarrian governmental apparatus to be less effective with the foot-laser. On the other hand, he believes that it's possible (and often a better choice) to convert someone religiously without completely overwriting their culture, which puts him at odds with quite a bit of Amarr philosophy regarding religious conversion.
2) He can't really go "RAWR, I hate you and want to make it so you no longer can exist in this cluster" to much of anyone short of Sanshas, EoM, and Blooders, due to the realities of WH life. (The bottom of the Angel Cartel barrel comes close, too.) On the other hand, he's perfectly happy shooting at most stuff he comes across and thinks he can take, which means he winds up with "frenemies" in most cases.
3) He's relatively open-minded when it comes to hiring crew for his ships; more progressive Sabik, down-on-their-luck Caldari guri, Matari tribal outcasts, and even minor Holders are fair game for him in this regard.
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*Sung to the tune of Paula Cole's terrible 90's hit "Where have all the Cowboys Gone?" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPR108kwNo4
Where have all the slavers gooooone?!
This thing with Cresthill / Manwe today...
I think there's about what, 4 Amarrians now that actually want to carry out the Reclaiming nowadays and not end slavery and hand roses out to their enemies? I really feel for you all.
Amarrians are -soft- these days.
I'd say that in modern, Western media, 'slaver' and 'pedophile' are the go-to ways to show a character is evil. If your character supports slavery, that's going to become the defining characteristic in people's eyes and the information we have on the Amarr doesn't help. Mass rape, keeping families enslaved for generations, and treating slaves as no better than animals - yeah, that doesn't sound like people dedicated to helping slaves reach spiritual enlightenment at all.
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More aggressive Slaver Amarrians, please.
Yes, some people want to phase out and do some low-level RP. That isn't me, but I often make-do.
Personally, I'd like more RP between enemies that isn't just shallow mudslinging, tyvm.
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... and the information we have on the Amarr doesn't help. Mass rape, keeping families enslaved for generations, and treating slaves as no better than animals - yeah, that doesn't sound like people dedicated to helping slaves reach spiritual enlightenment at all.
Frankly, I think it is this perception more than anything that harms the slaveholding RPers. Aside from the TonyG claptrap - which contradicts most other published PF - I don't think I can think of any "mass rapes", and quite a few instances of educated and relatively off slaves living in conditions that may not be "comfortable", certainly aren't "like animals".
This isn't to say that slaves AREN'T kept like animals or treated horrifically in some parts of the Empire - but the perceptions that there's no such thing as an unabused slave, or that 95% of Amarr are just in it for the kicks and don't really believe in enlightenment, etc, etc... These are, frankly, some of the hardest things for us to RP around. Esna's had to go to really extraordinary lengths in order to disabuse people (pun intended) of that notion.
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... and the information we have on the Amarr doesn't help. Mass rape, keeping families enslaved for generations, and treating slaves as no better than animals - yeah, that doesn't sound like people dedicated to helping slaves reach spiritual enlightenment at all.
Frankly, I think it is this perception more than anything that harms the slaveholding RPers. Aside from the TonyG claptrap - which contradicts most other published PF - I don't think I can think of any "mass rapes", and quite a few instances of educated and relatively off slaves living in conditions that may not be "comfortable", certainly aren't "like animals".
This isn't to say that slaves AREN'T kept like animals or treated horrifically in some parts of the Empire - but the perceptions that there's no such thing as an unabused slave, or that 95% of Amarr are just in it for the kicks and don't really believe in enlightenment, etc, etc... These are, frankly, some of the hardest things for us to RP around. Esna's had to go to really extraordinary lengths in order to disabuse people (pun intended) of that notion.
Here's my take on abuse and slavery within the Empire.
Gottii's slavery was pretty brutal, mostly because the PF I read about a lot if not most Brutor slaves were kept specifically for hard manual labor. ( also pushing a mill in a circle makes for an easy time lapse transition)
Gottii's slaves died quite often. High-gravity mining is hard and dangerous. Slaves had a hideously high mortality rate. From real life, I took inspiration from real life mining slavery in the Roman Empire and European sugar cane plantations in the Caribbean, which had life expectancies of months if not weeks.
The slaves were caught between their Holder (who wanted greater profit) and the priests watching over the flock so to speak (who were the True Believers for the most part, and actually bought into the belief they were trying to better the lives of the Matari). This served (or will serve) as a central theme in a lot of the fiction I wrote. Again, I tried to take inspiration from historical sources, in this case the Spanish New World colonies with the tension between the Crown and the Church in running say the Peruvian silver mines.
That said, I would imagine Gottii's slavery example to be pretty extreme. Most slaves wouldnt have such conditions, indeed, the Matari race wouldnt be to numerous if they were. I figured that rape of slaves is highly discouraged, both for religious reasons and for the more cynical and practical sense that it gets in the way of carefully constructed DNA-modifications wrought by the HEP. (for example, Gottii's high gravity modifications required constant genetic tinkering to keep those traits "breeding true", overseers raping their charges would dilute those modifications, and cost their Holders money, so the Holders have a practical reason to keep it from happening, and punish it severely)
That said, of course there is sexual exploitation of slaves. The Holder in the St. Arzad story is quoted as having a Matari "lover". (which, as any sexual harassment seminar will tell you, its impossible to have a healthy and balanced relationship between two people of such disparate positions in their respective organization). Sexual exploitation of slaves has always happened in the course of human history. Its part and parcel of what slavery is.
Is rape of slaves probably outlawed in the Empire? Of course, for a variety of reasons, and not all of them cynical. But rape is outlawed now, and it still certainly happens. The problem is having such a defenseless underclass greatly enhances the opportunities for sexual predation, and a slave by definition almost always has little to no legal or social recourse. So its certainly part of the Empire, but its likely not openly accepted or acknowledged. Though behind closed doors or in an isolated slave camp is another matter.
But slaves are always abused, at least in this regard. Its mentioned in the slavery PF that slaves within the Empire are kept in line with either drugs or the threat of violence. Using violence, or the threat of violence, is always abusive. Theres no way to threaten someone with physical harm in a non-abusive way. Theres no such thing as "good slavery", just "subtly threatening slavery". Slaves live in a constant state of fear of punishment, no matter how well treated. They live in fear. And that in itself is abuse.
So its about various degrees of control, of how overt the threat of physical harm is. Not everyone is likely whipped, in fact I would imagine many slaves, particularly highly trained, assimilated and educated ones might go their whole lives without being physically punished. Buts the threat is always there, even if its remote.
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Some questions:
Do we have any evidence that sexual contact with slaves requires consent? If we do, whose consent: the slave's or the slaveowner's? If a slave can give legal consent to sexual contact, how is that ascertained? Are there other things a slave can consent to? Are there other things a slave is required to consent to? ("Just take these healthy medicines.")
I'd expect it to be more a property crime than a personal crime. I don't think slaves can give consent, pretty much by definition[1], which means that within the legal framework surrounding slavery I don't think "rape" has meaning.
Not all slaves were part of the HEP or other dedicated breeding programmes, although some were. Outside of those programmes (presumably) there seems to have been willingness to mix slave bloodlines:
For the next several centuries, the Amarr were left without a fresh source of slaves. During this time, the slave stock subsisted mainly on breeding programs, though the Empire also began to use slavery as punishment for criminal acts. In this way, even those of Amarr ancestry began to be enslaved and had their blood mixed with the Udorians, Khanid, and other minor races that made up the slave population.
I also don't think Amarrians are necessarily required to tie sex and fertility together, although so far I think the only evidence we have is that they do. We know from item write-ups that they do breed slaves the old way. I haven't heard about them using artificial insemination: we've assumed that it makes sense, but I don't know how it fits the culture. We also don't know the Amarrian take on non-reproductive sexual activities, contraception and abortion (which is pretty significant for the position of women in Amarrian society, among other things). I've assumed that they're capable enough at animal husbandry to be able to ensure that they don't waste valuable resources gestating the "wrong" offspring, but if they're feeding their slaves the future equivalent of RU486 once a month to take care of any unscheduled pregnancies I think it's entirely within the realm of possibility that sex is an accepted overseer perquisite, and forced sex a means of discipline.
I also expect that there's the Amarrian equivalent of the SPCA, advocating for the humane treatment of slaves. And Holders who value discipline and proper focus.
... and that this all seems very normal, if that's the society you expect. And that one of the things some Amarrian roleplayers lament is that there aren't more people taking the view that that's no big deal and it's really rather gauche for these irritating outsiders to make such a fuss about it.
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[1] There's scope for huge debate here about consenting to be freed, deciding rationally to trade sex for things you want, etc. In this instance I'm talking about legal consent, which strikes me as being one of the things that you don't get as a slave. Do educate me if I'm wrong.
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I don't know that the common law framework surrounding rape / consent issues translates directly to the fictional Amarrian culture. I get what you're saying and, if "rape" means the same thing there as it does here, then you're spot on.
But I could also envision a world in which the Amarrian ideal is that slaves are to be treated as humans needing to purge their sins through work and receive enlightenment, and that they can't do that if Holders et al. abuse them in ways that would incur God's disapproval.
In fact, we might be better off discarding the entire notion of rape as applied under legal frameworks with which we're familiar, and instead assuming that it means something that we would possibly recognize as "rape". Think, for example, of the ancient Hebrew laws about slavery and such, where slaves were more than simple property but certainly not equal subjects (the concept of "citizenry" didn't apply).
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Another quote from the same source:
The existence of one human race on another planet spurred Amarr innovation and exploration. As they spread through the cluster, they discovered several more pockets of humanity. In general, these peoples were small in number, sometimes encompassing little more than a few scattered tribes struggling to survive. The Amarr enslaved the majority, and destroyed those they considered unworthy.[4] Only the largest and most important were recorded in detail; most faded into obscurity of the generic slave stock.
This is one reason I have some sympathy for Ken's idea that the current Minmatar tribes are after-the-fact constructs, maybe using old names and stereotypes but very much recreated out of what slavery left.
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Sure, there is conception now, but we're likely dealing with traditions and taboos laid down before such things we're common. Theocratic regimes arent big on admitting rules change due to time and technology.
Also, forced rape does many things, such as potentially damage a womans ability to reproduce through physical trauma and STDs. Ruin one fertile young girl's uterus and you've taken money out of a Holder's pocket, quite a lot actually. Im sure there are "pleasure brigades" for overseers and such, but I doubt they're allowed free reign of the slave stock. (though rape as a threat and a punishment is possible, and likely a compelling one)
The fact that the Amarrian place such a high import on their own genetic identity ("we're the chosen people of God!"), and there is a recognizable Amarrian bloodline at all after centuries of conquest and enslavement means that breeding and mixing of blood with "lesser races" seems to be a very uncommon event. Otherwise they wouldnt even be recognizable as a distinct ethnicity after centuries of taking concubines and such (in contrast to the Romans, who fucked anything, and didnt really exist as a recognizable, distinct ethnicity after a few centuries of Mediterranean hegemony and empire )
And if the Amarr dont do it, I doubt they let the races they're trying to teach to be more like them do it.
EDIT: but, the footnote you cited does challenge this idea a bit. That said, my first point stands.
Further edit: Im defining rape as forced sex, a violent act. In practical terms, im defining it the way most IC backgrounds define it really, which is what Esna mentioned.
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But I could also envision a world in which the Amarrian ideal is that slaves are to be treated as humans needing to purge their sins through work and receive enlightenment, and that they can't do that if Holders et al. abuse them in ways that would incur God's disapproval.
Why would the Amarrian god disapprove? We get quite mixed ideas about the Amarrian god from the snippets of Scripture we have, but one thing I think is pretty clear is that this isn't a nice, Gallente-friendly type of god. I think that by the time the idea of Reclaiming was developed and widespread it included the idea that it might take generations, right? I see no reason why the treatment of those generations would cause their god any particular concern, while the use of their labour to support Amarrian society is clearly a good.
In fact, we might be better off discarding the entire notion of rape as applied under legal frameworks with which we're familiar, and instead assuming that it means something that we would possibly recognize as "rape". Think, for example, of the ancient Hebrew laws about slavery and such, where slaves were more than simple property but certainly not equal subjects (the concept of "citizenry" didn't apply).
I'm curious about what you're thinking of, since that was one of the examples I had in mind when I referred to rape as a property crime against the owner. Do you have a different slant on that?
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Why would the Amarrian god disapprove? We get quite mixed ideas about the Amarrian god from the snippets of Scripture we have, but one thing I think is pretty clear is that this isn't a nice, Gallente-friendly type of god. I think that by the time the idea of Reclaiming was developed and widespread it included the idea that it might take generations, right? I see no reason why the treatment of those generations would cause their god any particular concern, while the use of their labour to support Amarrian society is clearly a good.
I think they would care because Amarrian religion and society doesnt view everyone as genetically inferior, simply mislead and needing to be more like the Chosen people of God. They very fact that a Khanid bloodline is considered a candidate to produce the Emperor means that Amarrians are aware that todays slave might be tomorrows Emperor, and likely Amarrian religion and doctrine reflects that.
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I can't find an original of this--I have it here from its use in an old IGS thread (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=545283&page=1#19)--but I believe it was the write up for breeder colonies in old missions:
This breeding facility produces Minmatar children ready to assume their place as servants to the Amarr. Once they reach puberty, the boys are sent away to take their place amongst the lower classes in Amarr society.
The girls, on the other hand, are left behind. Their place is here, stretched out on cold metal tables, silent and tense. The facility wears out its brood, but that's all right; more are created all the time.
And every now and then, a caravan will arrive, carrying men with cold eyes and clammy hands, ready and willing to help with the production.
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I can't find an original of this--I have it hear from its use in an old IGS thread (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=545283&page=1#19)--but I believe it was the write up for breeder colonies in old missions:
This breeding facility produces Minmatar children ready to assume their place as servants to the Amarr. Once they reach puberty, the boys are sent away to take their place amongst the lower classes in Amarr society.
The girls, on the other hand, are left behind. Their place is here, stretched out on cold metal tables, silent and tense. The facility wears out its brood, but that's all right; more are created all the time.
And every now and then, a caravan will arrive, carrying men with cold eyes and clammy hands, ready and willing to help with the production.
Couldnt find were the quote was from? But its late and my eyes are getting blurry.
Also, man I miss the old school Amarrian RPers :(
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I think they would care because Amarrian religion and society doesnt view everyone as genetically inferior, simply mislead and needing to be more like the Chosen people of God. They very fact that a Khanid bloodline is considered a candidate to produce the Emperor means that Amarrians are aware that todays slave might be tomorrows Emperor, and likely Amarrian religion and doctrine reflects that.
Which Khanid bloodline? King Khanid is True Amarrian (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Khanid_II).
I think the example you're looking for is Tash-Murkon, where the heir has some Udorian heritage. And as I understand it there's quite some discomfort at the idea that such a person might be put in the position of being the sacred godflesh?
True Amarrians are god's chosen people. Through certain accidents of history and politics it might happen that someone who's not fully True Amarrian comes to the Imperial throne: at that point I imagine there will be either a focus on their Amarr heritage or a certain amount of pragmatic "La la la, not listening" for as long as it takes for things to resume their usual programming.
(By the way, thanks for the discussion: this is fun. :) )
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Also s/hear/here above.
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It's used in post 19 of the linked thread. In theory the link goes to the post, but whether that actually worked on the old forum was always a bit of a lucky dip.
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Also, man I miss the old school Amarrian RPers :(
Yeah, and I find it a little odd defending their chosen culture for them. :)
Also, what happened to my default smily? It looks like an icon has been replaced somewhere, and it's now being used for both the smily and IP-logged emblem. Which shows me my IP. And which I assume has shown the mods who Muck Raker and various others are.
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I will be honest, did not read anything in this posting other then the the 1st one. Kazuma is still a Old-School Slave owning Khanid, who feels the best way to save a slave is through enlightenment. Now, I can't really say about the whole reclaiming issue, but I am still for the whole idea that all races should embrace the Amarrian God, either through their own free will, or through subtle but effective enlightenment process.
On a side note, I am actually looking into the idea of getting back into the RP preaching that I did when I was in the Knighthood of the Merciful Crown. Hopefully if / when I get some writings done and posted onto the IGS, I can kick the hornets nest, so to speak.
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Quoted from the EVE-Wiki article on Amash-Akura, the founder of the Amarr Empire:
As the ruler of Dam-Torsad, Amash-Akura instituted several reforms. He placed governance of the city in the hands of the church and made worship mandatory, ruled the precepts be laid down in the Scriptures - giving aid to the pious and striking down heretics - and he strictly enforced a code of morals on his soldiers, forbidding them from rape, looting, or mistreatment of enemies.
I'm not claiming that this has any bearing on current Amarrian law, but I think it firmly establishes that in Amarrian culture, rape - even against enemies - is a bad thing.
I think the example you're looking for is Tash-Murkon, where the heir has some Udorian heritage. And as I understand it there's quite some discomfort at the idea that such a person might be put in the position of being the sacred godflesh?
I was under the impression this was only in the most traditionalist portions of the Empire
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Don't worry.
(http://www.eve-wiki.net/images/2/2d/Aegispublic5.jpg)
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Quoted from the EVE-Wiki article on Amash-Akura, the founder of the Amarr Empire:
As the ruler of Dam-Torsad, Amash-Akura instituted several reforms. He placed governance of the city in the hands of the church and made worship mandatory, ruled the precepts be laid down in the Scriptures - giving aid to the pious and striking down heretics - and he strictly enforced a code of morals on his soldiers, forbidding them from rape, looting, or mistreatment of enemies.
I'm not claiming that this has any bearing on current Amarrian law, but I think it firmly establishes that in Amarrian culture, rape - even against enemies - is a bad thing.
Good observation. I want to prod at it though:
-- Military discipline matters in its own right. This could be focused on the discipline of the military, rather than the effects on others.
-- Are enemies--or whoever, since this presumably applies to locals as well--considered people with full rights, or are they prisoners-of-war-in-waiting-for-slavery? If they're full people, rape seems to be considered bad. If they're slaves who haven't been handed out to their new owners yet, there could be an interest in maintaining their health and value.
-- What do you think counts as "mistreatment of enemies"? Enslaving them was okay, with all that went with that, yes?
I can, however, definitely see some Amarrians adopting this sort of code or approach in civilian life.
I think the example you're looking for is Tash-Murkon, where the heir has some Udorian heritage. And as I understand it there's quite some discomfort at the idea that such a person might be put in the position of being the sacred godflesh?
I was under the impression this was only in the most traditionalist portions of the Empire
Let's see:
Though originally distinct from the True Amarr, they are now almost physically and socially identical, and impossible to tell apart. Their status is considered nearly equal to the True Amarr by all but the most conservative Amarr elements.
Can we split this one? I think "nearly equal by all but the most conservative Amarr" means "not quite equal, and the most conservative Amarr don't think they're even that close".
Do you know how Amarrian religion deals with its Chosen People meme? The Chosen are the faithful people "of Amarr", although they're also described as "of Athra". Are non-True-Amarrians able to be considered "of the chosen people"? Does it vary depending on your level of conservatism?
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Quoted from the EVE-Wiki article on Amash-Akura, the founder of the Amarr Empire:
As the ruler of Dam-Torsad, Amash-Akura instituted several reforms. He placed governance of the city in the hands of the church and made worship mandatory, ruled the precepts be laid down in the Scriptures - giving aid to the pious and striking down heretics - and he strictly enforced a code of morals on his soldiers, forbidding them from rape, looting, or mistreatment of enemies.
I'm not claiming that this has any bearing on current Amarrian law, but I think it firmly establishes that in Amarrian culture, rape - even against enemies - is a bad thing.
That's a good find, I can use that.
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" It's not rape when it happens to a slave. Then again it's not rape when you do it to a slaverhound either. Both are equally repugnant signs of moral deviancy."
Thats pretty much Mensha's view on this. It's not that a holder can not do what they please with their slaves, it's what it tells of the holders character. -Not to mention the sheer arrogance or incompetence in failing to keep it from being found out..
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Quoted from the EVE-Wiki article on Amash-Akura, the founder of the Amarr Empire:
As the ruler of Dam-Torsad, Amash-Akura instituted several reforms. He placed governance of the city in the hands of the church and made worship mandatory, ruled the precepts be laid down in the Scriptures - giving aid to the pious and striking down heretics - and he strictly enforced a code of morals on his soldiers, forbidding them from rape, looting, or mistreatment of enemies.
I'm not claiming that this has any bearing on current Amarrian law, but I think it firmly establishes that in Amarrian culture, rape - even against enemies - is a bad thing.
Good observation. I want to prod at it though:
-- Military discipline matters in its own right. This could be focused on the discipline of the military, rather than the effects on others.
-- Are enemies--or whoever, since this presumably applies to locals as well--considered people with full rights, or are they prisoners-of-war-in-waiting-for-slavery? If they're full people, rape seems to be considered bad. If they're slaves who haven't been handed out to their new owners yet, there could be an interest in maintaining their health and value.
-- What do you think counts as "mistreatment of enemies"? Enslaving them was okay, with all that went with that, yes?
I can, however, definitely see some Amarrians adopting this sort of code or approach in civilian life.
The enemies of Amarr are by definition not part of the Faith so they are neither heathens, nor heretics [edit : they are either heathens, or heretics is what I meant]. I would even argue that for the Amarr, they are held in lesser esteem than even slaves. Slaves, who are part of the Faith, even at the lowest level. To me, if it is not ok to rape even enemies of Amarr, then it would be even less ok to rape slaves that are already part of Amarrian society, all of this related to that omnipresent pyramidal societal amarrian ladder.
Unless of course, it is a way to educate them...
Of course it could also be argued that there is some kind of honorable part in not raping enemies (some code of conduct in war), unrelated to the treatment of slaves.
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I'd say a heathen is - from the Amarrian perspective - simply someone who's not embracing the Amarrian religion. A heretic is someone who distorts Amarrian religion. Thus, enemies of Amarr can be heathans as well as heretics - a heretic is in fact by necessity an enemy of Amarr, while the same is not true for a heathen.
I'd agree though: I can't think of rape being considered as something else than being in itself immoral (as it is kind of the type of distortion of Amarrian religously motivated ethics like Sani Sabikism is a distortion of it in general).
As to the 'chosen people':
"Our Lord visited his flock and saw that all was not good.
Blasphemy and heresy ruled the land.
The Lord punished the sinners and drowned them in their own blood.
But the people of Amarr lived righteously and in fear of God.
Thus they were saved and became God's chosen."
- The Scriptures, Book II 2:1
I think the important part here is, really, that God chose the Amarr not because they were Amarr, had a certain genetic trait or blood flowing in their veins: They became His chosen, because they had certain religious and moral qualities. It is these qualities that God seeks in people and he takes those up as his chosen people. Right makes Might (not the other way around: that would be the Sabikist distortion).
Otherwise an Amarrian holder couldn't fall from grace and into slavery, by definition. Amarrians are usually quite aware though, that they are not exempt from the need to behave in a faithful and god-fearing way. Compare the repeated admonishon in ther Scripture's that God is testing the Amarr again and again and they must show that they are deserving of his gifts.
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Sorry I noticed that I wrote the opposite of what I actually wanted to write. I edited it in my previous post. Anyway it does not change my point on Amarrians (faithful) > Slaves (faithful) > Slaves (in processing of becoming faithful) > Heathens > Heretics.
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Sorry to ignore what people have been inputting for the past nine pages, but the answer to the topic title is...
"Because if you play a slaver, the RP community will ostracize you and you can't play with them, of course!"
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Sorry to ignore what people have been inputting for the past nine pages, but the answer to the topic title is...
"Because if you play a slaver, the RP community will ostracize you and you can't play with them, of course!"
But there should be enough of them to play among themselves in a proper Amarrian environment, right?
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Sorry to ignore what people have been inputting for the past nine pages, but the answer to the topic title is...
"Because if you play a slaver, the RP community will ostracize you and you can't play with them, of course!"
I play a slaver and have had no trouble getting people to RP with me.
Heck, when Makkal announced she was going to execute that poor bastard with the sex tape and have a bunch of Caldari workers enslaved, I had tons of people trying to RP with me.
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Hm, sounds like I'm just being a Summit cynic!
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But there should be enough of them to play among themselves in a proper Amarrian environment, right?
Ugh!
Fuck no.
Can you imagine me and Vaari in a room for 20 minutes?
They'd have to sandblast him off the floor.
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Can you imagine me and Vaari in a room for 20 minutes?
They'd have to sandblast him off the floor.
/me would pay for the security tape...
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Can you imagine me and Vaari in a room for 20 minutes?
They'd have to sandblast him off the floor.
/me would pay for the security tape...
You beat me to it. :)
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Really? Aldy would just pat him on the head, tuck him into bed and read Scriptures to him until he fell asleep.
Adorable old dude :3
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Sorry to ignore what people have been inputting for the past nine pages, but the answer to the topic title is...
"Because if you play a slaver, the RP community will ostracize you and you can't play with them, of course!"
I play a slaver and have had no trouble getting people to RP with me.
Heck, when Makkal announced she was going to execute that poor bastard with the sex tape and have a bunch of Caldari workers enslaved, I had tons of people trying to RP with me.
of course: 60% of new eden would like to be executed by being sex taped. Now, did you ever try to RP with people without agitating them by enslaving people, but simply to be friends with people and have a good time with them, drink a tea, maybe join their corp?
At some point you'll notice: If you play a slaver, people will ostracize you for it because it's bad and their toons don't want to accept slavery as a fact within the Empire. (Unless they are criminals doing far worse things or are some of the few slavers themselves. Amarrian RP is definitely at a low.)
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Can you imagine me and Vaari in a room for 20 minutes?
I'd love to see Vaari in a room with any sane character.
of course: 60% of new eden would like to be executed by being sex taped.
Perverts! :eek:
Now, did you ever try to RP with people without agitating them by enslaving people, but simply to be friends with people and have a good time with them, drink a tea, maybe join their corp?
Makkal mostly spends her nights chatting with people in the Summit. I've found the average person there rather... friendly.
At some point you'll notice: If you play a slaver, people will ostracize you for it because it's bad and their toons don't want to accept slavery as a fact within the Empire. (Unless they are criminals doing far worse things or are some of the few slavers themselves. Amarrian RP is definitely at a low.)
There's probably lots of RP going on that I'm not aware of but you are. My ignorance makes it seem as though people are cool with Makkal because I don't see where they're excluding her.
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My ignorance makes it seem as though people are cool with Makkal because I don't see where they're excluding her.
Heh...the mystery of having chat channels instead of physical locales in EVE RP...
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My ignorance makes it seem as though people are cool with Makkal because I don't see where they're excluding her.
Heh...the mystery of having chat channels instead of physical locales in EVE RP...
^
I don't know about anyone else, but I know that Halete acts a lot different outside of the chat channels.
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I think that's the case for a lot of people, Hatele. (I'd even argue most, but :statisticswars: )
You'll rarely get a good discussion or conversation out of some people on the Summit, but corner them in a bar or some other 'meatspace' location and it's a whole different story. Seriphyn actually comes to mind here as an example; while over the years he and Morwen have rarely been able to have a discussion in public without it devolving into one of them sniping at the other being a spacelesbian (she's not) or a man-slut (he's not anymore, I think...), they did manage to have a pretty decent conversation in the middle of one of the sub-events during Revan's contest last summer where not only were they both civil and polite (possibly even friendly, god forbid), neither of them tried to kill the other.
The Summit is a decent place to be exposed to new faces. It is not, however, a good place to get to know the people behind those faces - for that, you probably want a smaller group and a quasi-physical setting, rather than a crowd and talking heads and audio feeds.
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The Summit is a decent place to be exposed to new faces. It is not, however, a good place to get to know the people behind those faces - for that, you probably want a smaller group and a quasi-physical setting, rather than a crowd and talking heads and audio feeds.
This. A thousand times this. I got my start at RP in the summit, meeting people and such, when it was a semi-physical location (VR environment for the sansha conference when the live events were in their early stages, iirc). But I actually got to know the characters when I got invited out to other places - the Dreadnaught (Kyber's now-defunct Bar), the last gate, etc. Later, Mercy's Keep, smaller corp-specific hangouts. People may have decided to accept the presence of slavers in public, but won't be willing to associate with them outside the neutral ground of the Summit.
In addition, I think there's been a resurgence of slavers and more hardline amarrians over the last couple years since I started playing. At that point, I think it was down to just PIE and most everyone else was taking the liberal "hugglefuck" path. That angle seems to have died down a bit and we're seeing more people willing to openly support slavery and the empire without being reformists.
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The new slavers on the block seem hit or miss to me.
There are some pretty good ones that feel believable, but there are also some that fall more towards the "Evil for the sake of Evil; also twirling moustaches is cool" end of the spectrum and feel more like parodies and mockeries than the "genuine article."
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I'm not really paying closet attention anymore (only look at IGS when somenoe mentions it) so the odds of my impressions being wrong are high. Still, even the mustache twirlers have a chance to develop into more complete characters, mine did (I think. maybe. mostly).
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* Examines Victoria's lady-face for a mustache * :P
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* Examines Victoria's lady-face for a mustache * :P
Tried to shave it off about a year and a half ago. Character is now psychotic rather than being sadistic just for sadism's sake.
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The new slavers on the block seem hit or miss to me.
There are some pretty good ones that feel believable, but there are also some that fall more towards the "Evil for the sake of Evil; also twirling moustaches is cool" end of the spectrum and feel more like parodies and mockeries than the "genuine article."
I agree with this. Also, indeed, people accept slavers in the Summit, sometimes also on public events or in some public venues. But beyond that, people nowadays tend to keep slavers as far away as possible. What really flabbergasted me that Nico had some friends who, after a time of absence of me and Nico, stopped pretty much to socialize with her because she is a slave holder, while that wasn't a problem at all before... This is mostly true for Caldari. Nowadays, many Caldari seem to care a great deal what Amarr do at home, even though they claim it's not their business.
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Judgmental bastards. That's our job!
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Nowadays, many Caldari seem to care a great deal what Amarr do at home, even though they claim it's not their business.
Just saying that if this is indeed the case I think it's fantastic: changing social mores over time.
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What is so fantastic about the unavoidable? 'Social mores' change all the time, out of EVE as well as within.
The Matari are in an upswing in regard to (role-)player numbers and I won't blame them that they have a problem with slavers. Thing is, I think, that Caldari players seemingly think they have a choice to make in game: socializing with the slavers or the anti-slavers. Of course, as in pvp, it's usually the numbers that decide. So, through maximizing the number of people they want to interact with, the Amarr get the boot, so to speak, I think.
I think it's also OOC bleeding over into RP here: Slavery is, to most people, by definition something evil and a very tangible at that. It's always been the strong point of the Minnies imho in the slavery-debate: appeal to the moral sensitivities of the players. That's not to say that Matari or others gave no anti-slavery arguments. Still, I think this 'social mores' change is not so much a result of RP, a change within RP. If you've to decide something like with whom you want to RP more intensively and you can't really decide, it's easier to go with the option that caters your personal morality.
So, while I think that this kind of thing happens quite naturally and I don't think of it as something bad - of course every RPer can and should decide with whom they prefer to play - I don't think that it's in any way fantastic. vOv
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While I don't doubt that there is some OOC bleedover, I think there's another thing involved in this that hasn't been mentioned yet:
Up until a very short while ago, my impression was the PF suggested the Caldari tolerate, if not accept the Amarr practice of slavery. They disagree with it, but for purposes of the alliance with the Amarr they don't raise an issue so long as the Amarr don't enslave the Caldari.
Then there was a series of news articles (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=utype&tyid=3&cid=30002776) involving a mining disaster in the State, and how the State rejected Amarr offers of assistance because the rescue teams would be slaves. For the first time, it was explicitly stated that not only do the Caldari disapprove of slavery and do not traffic in slaves themselves, but even contracting work to companies using slaves in the State is illegal. This was a major change in the Caldari viewpoint on slavery, and something I think heavily effects in the current debate.
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It's always been the strong point of the Minnies imho in the slavery-debate: appeal to the moral sensitivities of the players.
Aaaah, run into this constantly. I find inferring IC/OOC (not really sure these days...) that the Amarr/Caldari are authoritarian states is received negatively. The only "liberal" state is the Federation, and even then their society/culture is quite extreme and libertine in some places. Both Amarr/Caldari have 'indoctrination to the state' inferred in multiple places (such as MIO, trade assessment corp desc), but few go this route, as such a word makes our OOC morality uncomfortable. I am very confident that if the Caldari State existed IRL, most of us would despise it to the core.
A much more appropiate response I'd like to see is that "Yes, we are what you Gallenteans call 'authoritarian', but we are much more stable and efficient than your Federation will ever be". Which is true; it says the Amarr Empire is the most stable in all New Eden, because of the whole control factor, whereas individual freedom in the Fed makes them fragmented, indecisive and inefficient. I don't think there always needs to be a kneejerk reaction when someone calls your faction authoritarian.
It's more of a group thing rather than an individual matter though, I reckon. Individuals in the Summit will shun anyone who goes against the established moral status quo (Slavery is bad, everyone should get along, Gallente democracy sux because US democracy sux >_>). Even a more colonialist Gallente will get shunned just as much as an indoctrinated Caldari Provist.
I think Gessanier pointed out on the IGS how 'Gallentean' the capsule world is (free market economy based on individual entrepreneurs, cosmopolitan, everyone is free to do whatever they want within limits set by CONCORD). That would certainly compensate for all the OOC moral bleedover. Gallente cultural imperialism!
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While I don't doubt that there is some OOC bleedover, I think there's another thing involved in this that hasn't been mentioned yet:
Up until a very short while ago, my impression was the PF suggested the Caldari tolerate, if not accept the Amarr practice of slavery. They disagree with it, but for purposes of the alliance with the Amarr they don't raise an issue so long as the Amarr don't enslave the Caldari.
Then there was a series of news articles (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=utype&tyid=3&cid=30002776) involving a mining disaster in the State, and how the State rejected Amarr offers of assistance because the rescue teams would be slaves. For the first time, it was explicitly stated that not only do the Caldari disapprove of slavery and do not traffic in slaves themselves, but even contracting work to companies using slaves in the State is illegal. This was a major change in the Caldari viewpoint on slavery, and something I think heavily effects in the current debate.
Yes Esna. It is weird since it is stated in the eve wiki article on slavery that the Caldari have absolutely no issues with slavery (they do not find it immoral).
Perhaps uniquely among the people of New Eden, the Caldari have no known history of slavery. While their critics often use the term “wage slave” in reference to Caldari workers, in reality, Caldari workers enjoy freedoms that set them apart from actual slaves. While conditions among the working class can be harsh, recent reforms under Tibus Heth have been aimed at easing the burdens of the workers, though the efficacy of these programs is debatable.
History
The Caldari have no record of enslaving other races or each other. While they have conquered and killed, slavery seems to be unheard of among the Caldari. There are numerous theories given as to why this is the case; the most widely accepted is that the harsh conditions on Caldari Prime made enslaving others not worth the trouble.
The arrival of the Gallente and the subsequent rise of the corporate culture of the Caldari reinforced this predilection against slavery. It wasn't until contact with the Amarr Empire that the concept of slavery was introduced to Caldari society. The Caldari considered it a curiosity, but as they were locked in a struggle with the Federation, they were unable to contemplate it deeply.
After the end of the war, the State was allowed to examine slavery more thoroughly. While the institution was discarded by the Caldari as unpractical, there are some who believe that as the State grew stronger and more stable, the Caldari allowed themselves to be influenced by their Amarr allies. A small number of sociologists hold a controversial view that the influence of the Amarr was a factor in the declining conditions of the Caldari working class that eventually led to the rise of Tibus Heth.
Societal Views
Slavery is a completely alien concept to most Caldari. Despite this, they do not consider it necessarily immoral. Rather, the Caldari view slavery through a very practical lens. While they understand slaves provide ostensibly free labor, they also realize that a slave owner needs to feed, house, and clothe his slaves. Additionally, though slaves can produce items of value, they are unable to purchase anything and thus cannot contribute to a healthy economy.
Therefore, the Caldari view slavery as a misguided notion that does more harm to an economy (and thus a proper society) than good. However, the Caldari also consider the affairs of other nations their own business, as long as it does no direct harm to the State. As a result, the Caldari find no difficulty in being allied with the Amarr Empire and Khanid Kingdom. They may believe those nations would serve as better trading partners should they abolish slavery, but they wouldn't presume to meddle with their society.
Despite this, slavery and transporting of slaves is illegal in the State. This has led to at least some tension, when the Caldari refused to allow a rescue team composed of slaves enter the State to assist in the rescue of trapped miners.[48][49] Compromises were offered, but rejected[50], and it was not until a team supposedly composed of free men was sent by the Amarr that the situation was resolved[51]. When it was revealed that slaves had participated in the rescue, legal issues arose.[52]
I think what made the Caldari strictly disapproved Ducia's offers is essentially a matter of rigid bureaucracy and a particularily strong attachement to the rules and laws. It is stated that the Caldari do not mind at all what other nations do as it is their own business, as long as it does not harm the State. Here, it happened directly in the State territory, so I think that the opposition Ducia got from Caldari authorities was mainly a matter of breaking the law. If I remember correctly, it was especially caldari authorities that were opposed to that rescue. Corporation directors and families were strongly disagreeing with said authorities and wanted Ducia to intervene, actually.
The issue is not in the news or in the PF in my opinion. The Caldari still do not view slavery as evil or as something they have anything to say about as long as it does not happen in their own space. The PF is pretty clear about it, even if it says that some Caldari think that Amarr influence made their workers work in harsher conditions.
The issues is with some Caldari players then. They may not sound as Caldari as they think.
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I am rather new to the community, but I would like to weigh in on this subject. I think IRL most people are good at heart and this makes playing a "slaver" hard as, over time like some have said, real life morality worms its way into your characters. I think the biggest thing that people (Amarrians in this case) do wrong is how they think of slavery.
Most people in the Eve community focus on Colonial Era United States or 1980's South Africa when they think of slavery (yes I know South Africa wasnt a slave country 1980's but go with me here). They think of whips and chains, murder, rape and all the other sorts of vile things that go along with he modern thoughts on slavery, this however is not a good reflection of Amarrian Slavery.
The Amarr Empire is a religious empire, ordained by God, to bring his(her?) love, teaching and word to all beings of New Eden. The downside is that only those who were born Amarr are capable of receiving God by "Grace" (ie by the simple acknowledgement that God is God, the saviour of man and all that). Those not born of Amarr cannot receive the word of God by Grace, but by works (ie they must earn God's love). There are many forms of "works" and it isnt always a slavery process (see Khanid and Ammatar).
When a Holder gains that religious title, it means that they (in theory) are of such virtue and piety that they have been deemed trustworthy enough to guide the lost souls of New Eden to the word of God. Look at "The Burning Life" where the agent character goes to the Amarr to find solice. It is described as a day filled with religious reflection, working of fields, sermons and more religious reflection. She took on "works" of her own accord and thus is not subject to whips and chains, whats more as some one who came to God, instead of God's servants having to come to her she is afforded the right to leave when she wishes, the thinking being "she has come to God once of her own, she will return".
Those who do not come to God on their own (Minmatar) must be made to be redeemed, still through "works". This is more akin to a parent saying to a child "this hurts me more then it hurts you" as I think a properly RP'd Holder is more concerned with the redemption of a mans soul then the economic boon of not having to pay for labor. Not much has ever been said of what an Amarr slave plantation looks like but I would assume that it looks like early morning prayer, meal, working, prayer, lunch, work, sermon, dinner, shower, religious reflection, sleep. Beatings on plantations would be more akin to "torture the flesh to save the soul" mentality then "im just a cruel and sadistic bastard muwahahahahahaha!"
I think if you look at slave holding in this light, it makes it more palatable to play while keeping your character more human to your real life sensibilities. Now dont get me wrong, I am not going to go all Eran Mentar and stop RP'ing a Minmatar that hates you for what you do, im just trying to help with some RP ideas for those who may be thinking of this line of play but find common thoughts on slavery to hard to foloow through on.
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Most of the RPers that play slavers I know are perfectly conscious of this. Characters that often do think like "slavery = bad/evil" are foreigners for the most part, in my experience.
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Well, what you say would be how a holder is expected to care for his slaves. There are, though, good and bad holders. Thing is people outside like to rather think of Amarr and the practice of slavery as morally abhorrent none the less.
What makes playing an Amarrian slaveholder unattractive isn't so much that there is no one thinking of it like you suggest, but rather the consequence that regardless of whether you're a benevolent holder or no, everyone outside the Amarrian RP community will shun you socially in one way or another. And then there are the Amarrian abolishonists, too.
Also, I agree with what Lyn said in response to Esna. The news article even states: "In related news, the former Annaro police commander Garr Diymir was sentenced to two months of house arrest and fined 1,000 ISK for illegally diverting police resources to allow the Ducia Foundry slaves to enter Caldari space and perform the rescue. Unofficial surveys indicate the majority of Caldari citizens support his decision." to me, it seems to indicate that there weren't ethical or moral concerns at work, but rather the attachment to laws.
As to Seri: I don't agree with the idea that Capsuleer society is Gallentean. Many corps organize themselves in a communictic fashion and virtually all corps are depending on one or a dew charismatic personalities as de-facto 'dictators' or on an 'oligarchy' of active people. Well, maybe the Gallente do as well, though. ;P
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Yes, and not so much
It just takes more work.
Graelyn is a benevolent Holder, and over time, even the staunchest enemy still treats him cordially, and he's not excluded from places and groups of people.
On the other hand, no one who isn't Amarrian wants to do any real RP (outside of 'hi, how are you') with an Amarrian. It's just too jarring, I guess.
However, you might be surprised to find it's not slavery that has anything at all to do with any of this.
It's 100% religion. No one wants to go out partying with a boring Fundie, and most detractors of Amarr are not basing anything off of plot or storyline, but out of sheer hatred (OOC or otherwise) for theocratic thought.
All of this is understandable (I abhor almost any organized religion IRL), but true nonetheless, and it is that, not the slavery issue everyone argues about, that causes the Amarr/Everyone else divide.
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On the other hand, no one who isn't Amarrian wants to do any real RP (outside of 'hi, how are you') with an Amarrian. It's just too jarring, I guess.
Jarring?
Wow. There must be something wrong with my brain. Actually, there is, but never mind that. In my assortment of characters, I've generally found it easier to RP with Amarr folks than I have Matari or even some Federation types.
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On the other hand, no one who isn't Amarrian wants to do any real RP (outside of 'hi, how are you') with an Amarrian. It's just too jarring, I guess.
Jarring?
Wow. There must be something wrong with my brain. Actually, there is, but never mind that. In my assortment of characters, I've generally found it easier to RP with Amarr folks than I have Matari or even some Federation types.
What do you mean?
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Graelyn, then how do you explain the (recent?) trend toward Matari mysticism?
(That's not a poke, to be clear, but a curious, friendly question. :) )
EDIT: And anyone who doesn't already know that something's wrong with Vieve's brain hasn't interacted with her yet. ;) :P :cube:
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On the other hand, no one who isn't Amarrian wants to do any real RP (outside of 'hi, how are you') with an Amarrian. It's just too jarring, I guess.
Jarring?
Wow. There must be something wrong with my brain. Actually, there is, but never mind that. In my assortment of characters, I've generally found it easier to RP with Amarr folks than I have Matari or even some Federation types.
What do you mean?
What do I mean? I mean that it has generally been easier for me to find a way for my characters to bait RP hooks for Amarr (or Caldari or some Federation types) than it has been for Matari or other Federation types.
Or were you wondering what I meant by saying that? If that's the case, well, it doesn't take as much effort for me to find things my characters and theirs care about. How's that for an explanation?
If you were wondering what Graelyn meant, well, can't help with that. He'll have to speak for himself. :)
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Graelyn is a benevolent Holder, and over time, even the staunchest enemy still treats him cordially, and he's not excluded from places and groups of people.
On the other hand, no one who isn't Amarrian wants to do any real RP (outside of 'hi, how are you') with an Amarrian. It's just too jarring, I guess.
I would say that people not wanting to do 'any real RP' is a kind of exclusion. Most people Nico knows treat her cordially and politely and don't exclude her explicitly. Still, oftentimes there is some kind of exclusion happenening, be it people not wanting to do 'real RP' with her or otherwise.
On the other hand there are some people I have lots of very profoundly deep, quite real RP with and that includes religious topics.
However, you might be surprised to find it's not slavery that has anything at all to do with any of this.
It's 100% religion. No one wants to go out partying with a boring Fundie, and most detractors of Amarr are not basing anything off of plot or storyline, but out of sheer hatred (OOC or otherwise) for theocratic thought.
All of this is understandable (I abhor almost any organized religion IRL), but true nonetheless, and it is that, not the slavery issue everyone argues about, that causes the Amarr/Everyone else divide.
This might be the case, as slavery goes hand in hand with religion and theocratic thought, if one is Amarr and not some criminal, at least - I think. So, the dichotomy there between slavery and religion is one that I don't see fitting for Amarr. it's quite possible though that as I play Nico, her conviction that slavery can be justified is the most prominent expression of theocratic thought one gets from her. Though I'd doubt that, it's certainly one of the stronger points she makes in that regard.
On the other hand, I have been RPing with people who really had no problem with the religious side to Nico and all was fine, until the topic of slavery arose. I think that's because one can play someone who is authentically religious and faithful without being a fanatic fundie and a boring one at that.
So, maybe it's the combination of slavery for (supposedly) religious reasons? Might very well be, as I met people in eve who have little problems with slavery á la Angel cartel, who had much more problems with Holders who apparently feigned religious motivation, but who had even more problems with Holders who were apparently honest about their religious conviction, especially if those were also believably benevolent.
Though I don't quite understand the why of this pattern, it seems to be what is observable. If so, I ask myself why? Maybe because people not only loathe theocracy, but even more so the (perceived) implication that in some cases theocracy might be justified?
Also: It might have to do with the fact that Amarrian religion is, as a monotheism, quite close to the abrahamic religions? Maybe people have a problem with monotheism nowadays, but not so much with polytheistic/animistic paganism? It meight explain why Matari shamanism (I don't think mysticism fits there, that much) is en vogue.
And yah, I didn't interact with her much, yet. Nico is Amarr, btw. so, maybe we should change this lack of RP, somewhen.
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Graelyn, then how do you explain the (recent?) trend toward Matari mysticism?
(That's not a poke, to be clear, but a curious, friendly question. :) )
EDIT: And anyone who doesn't already know that something's wrong with Vieve's brain hasn't interacted with her yet. ;) :P :cube:
There is a biiig difference in people's minds towards spirituality (especially New Age sort of angles on it), and the monolithic super-dogmatic entities, responsible for centuries of suppression of progress etc, that are waning in the world today.
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Ah, I see what you're getting at. New Age hippie "spirituality" vs traditional monotheistic "religion".
And FWIW, Nico, while not all mystics are shamanistic, all shamanists are mystics. I won't do the Wikipedia thing here, but essentially shamans are supposed to be people who can bridge between the spirit world and "our" world, acting as go-betweens for everybody else. That's pretty mystical, and something that frustrates me about Minmatar RP. Which also sort of explains why Minmatar haven't gotten all "my Lord, my Lord, why have you forsaken us?" when they go through the Day of Darkness.
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I'd beg to differ. True, Shamanism has this thing with the spirit world and the shaman as a go-in-between it and the worldly realm through altered states of consciousness, and this is similar to certain aspects if mysticism. But certainly Shamanism is not the same as mysticism, which has at it's heart the pursuit to attain communion, identity or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. So, while techniques might be similar, aims are quite different: Shamanic travels to the spirit lands have a practical purpose (e.g. healing) and not the enlightenment of the shaman and his communion with the ultimate reality of the divine.
Also, mysticism is, typically, closely associated with a well developed, institutionalized religion that has a well developed theology in a society with a huge amount of labor division and/or technical know-how, which frees time, time that's necessary to pursue mystical rather than practical aims. (Examples are ample: Sufism and Islam, Rhineland mysticism or Hesychasm and Christianity, Zen and Buddhism, Kabbalah and Judaism...) That's usually conditions Shamanism doesn't fullfill.
So, I'd venture the claim that most mystics are practitioners of a non-shamanic religion and shamans are only rarely mystics, though one doesn't preclude the other.
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On the other hand, no one who isn't Amarrian wants to do any real RP (outside of 'hi, how are you') with an Amarrian. It's just too jarring, I guess.
Jarring?
Wow. There must be something wrong with my brain. Actually, there is, but never mind that. In my assortment of characters, I've generally found it easier to RP with Amarr folks than I have Matari or even some Federation types.
What do you mean?
Would like to know as well. As a rule of thumb and from my experience, it's easier to communicate with more-mainstream (in relation to IRL) Caldari and Gallente characters than the culturally alien and in that venue more complex Amarr and Matari ones, with concepts of slaveholding feudal systems and neotribalism ones.
I roleplay a slave holder, and not the most benevolent one, and I have feeling that's sometimes a certain taboo, which is alright from an IC perspective of a federal bureaucrat, for example, but sometimes I feel the issue blends through into OOC as well; what I'm saying is, sometimes I feel a character's IC perception of slavery is twisted by the sociological context of our IRL civilization/culture.
Also, suggest topic split on Shamanism/mysticism and applications to Matari culture?
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Just to end the debate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism
On slavery: it isn't limited to the Amarr. It's not limited to Sansha's Nation. Criminal organizations across New Eden most likely use "slaves" for various purposes, most far more horrifying than manual labor on a plantation. The Kingdom, Blood Raiders and the Empire are only part of the problem, yet the focus is on the Amarr. Why? It is the religious argument used to defend slavery, and perceived hypocrisy of the faith. Which is perfectly understandable.
Now, here's a question for all the "Slavers" out there; what is the doctrine behind slavery? What is the canonical source of the practice? What are the legitimate IC reasoning that an Amarrian would use? Where are the scriptures an Amarrian would point to in order to support their view of slavery?
That's probably the biggest problem of RP'ing a Slaver; having IC knowledge enough to build a unique and informed member of a society that promotes slavery. What ends up happening is using tired tropes that, honestly, get boring after a while. You either get "I'm an evil slaver, all your Minmatar belong to me", or "Slavery isn't all bad, I give my slaves ice cream and sundaes once a week!"
Here's the big question: Our characters are Capsuleers, right? Some are a representatives of a particular faith. They are a representative of a faith that has slaves. Do your characters themselves have slaves, or are they separate from that due to being a Capsuleer? How much is the mechanics of EVE reflected in what players can or cannot do IC? I'm not saying there's a wrong answer here; on the contrary, I'm trying to point out that there is a deep, deep chasm of knowledge of very basic aspects of Capsuleer existence, and existence in the Empires. With that chasm, it's hard to both create a believable character and insure that such a character doesn't fall into stereotypes that just don't mesh with an active community.
Maybe, just maybe, if those answers were in place, playing a Slaver (or having proper justifications for not being one) would be easier. I wouldn't go so far as to say it would be more palatable to more people; it's slavery. No matter where you come from, it has negative connotations. In fact, I usually just ignore most "Amarrian Slaver" characters due to the perception--whether it is correct or not--that they'll be portraying individuals my characters wouldn't interact with in the first place. I've found it's the easiest way to keep from causing undue stress to myself and others.
Anyways, lots of room for unique RP, but the Amarr themselves are handicapped with the "evil religious slaver" moniker. It's not something that can be fixed overnight, and there are serious questions that need to be addressed during character creation that just aren't.
Or, to put it another way:
what I'm saying is, sometimes I feel a character's IC perception of slavery is twisted by the sociological context of our IRL civilization/culture.
This.
I am unapologetic about this. Slavery is abhorrent to me. For the same reason that in Mass Effect games I just can't bring myself to go Renegade, I can't play an Amarrian slaver or someone who actively supports any form of slavery.
Now, as I've played a Sansha's Nation supporting character, I would point out that most of my efforts have been directed at pointing out the benefits of specific aspects of Sansha's ideals while chastising those who support the active enslavement of unwilling individuals. I also took a "conscientious observer" role in the Incursion events leading up to the Incursion expansion. I couldn't support the attacks, while I understood the necessity of them. I also understood the moral reasoning, though the ethical reasoning royally irks me.
Hopefully that made some sort of sense. >.<
/rant
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A good suggestion, Leopold. I opened a thread here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3358.0). I don't see how giving wikipedia links ends a debate: I read both of them and neither of the articles states explicitly how one relates to the other. I think the articles support my view - others might disagree. Also, wikipedia isn't the holy grail of knowledge.
As to the slavery: Really, there are Amarr out there who don't simply use those tiring tropes. Especially back in the days there were some, though they got fewer with time passing, as - in my experience - it is quite tiring to react to "Slavery is the evil!" with and elaborate justification just to, again, get a "Doesn't matter for it is the evil!".
My problem isn't so much with how easy it is to play a slaver: It's quite easy if you use those mustache-twirling evilness tropes or the religious fundy evilness tropes. What is my problem is that those people that try to put thought into it and impersonate a believable slaver are in my experience the ones that are most severly shunned for it and least appreciated in responses - at least in relation to the effort they put in.
It's certainly a problem that there are Amarr running around with the "evil religious slaver" moniker. This has, imho, also to do with TonyG's terrifying writing skillz. But those now have a higher percentage within Amarrian RP than they had back some time and I think that has to do with the thing that you will be excluded from some RP activities for OOC reasons, that is OOC morality/ethics. Thus it's just natural that one has an increase of 'troll slavers' who aim at the above mentioned moniker, as they expect this from the start.
Also, it's less time consuming to do this rather than putting effort in reading the few bits of scripture we have and trying to make sense of them and the other relating PF to come up with an elaborate argument that justifies slavery or to play some well thought out other type of slaver just to get rewarded with the feeling that OOC issues lead to some kind of exclusion if you do so.
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I don't see how giving wikipedia links ends a debate: I read both of them and neither of the articles states explicitly how one relates to the other. I think the articles support my view - others might disagree. Also, wikipedia isn't the holy grail of knowledge.
They are two distinct paths, albeit with some overlap.
On to your other points!
Here's the thing. There will always be those who won't play with a particular style of RP or character type. It's the problem with choosing a path in a social game. Someone will always dislike your choice for some reason. OOC conflicts occur as well. Dealing with these is the challenge, and dealing with them well is it's own reward.
Instead of looking at it as a case of exclusion, why not figure out a way to include those who decide on the "path less traveled" in other ways? When the world puts up a "No Slavers Allowed" sign, why not put up your own "Only Slavers Allowed" to counter it?
There's always alternatives.
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So, maybe it's the combination of slavery for (supposedly) religious reasons? Might very well be, as I met people in eve who have little problems with slavery á la Angel cartel, who had much more problems with Holders who apparently feigned religious motivation, but who had even more problems with Holders who were apparently honest about their religious conviction, especially if those were also believably benevolent.
Though I don't quite understand the why of this pattern, it seems to be what is observable. If so, I ask myself why? Maybe because people not only loathe theocracy, but even more so the (perceived) implication that in some cases theocracy might be justified?
That.
They are two distinct paths, albeit with some overlap.
On to your other points!
Here's the thing. There will always be those who won't play with a particular style of RP or character type. It's the problem with choosing a path in a social game. Someone will always dislike your choice for some reason. OOC conflicts occur as well. Dealing with these is the challenge, and dealing with them well is it's own reward.
Instead of looking at it as a case of exclusion, why not figure out a way to include those who decide on the "path less traveled" in other ways? When the world puts up a "No Slavers Allowed" sign, why not put up your own "Only Slavers Allowed" to counter it?
There's always alternatives.
I do not think that would be very wise. Go on with that kind of escalation of ostracism and you will end up in a trench war of IC blended with OOC all over. It is NORMAL for an anti slavery character to organize a party without slavers. It is maybe normal for a slaver VIP group to organize one with only slavers as well, but that is pretty rare. As long as it remains purely motivated for IC reasons, fine. But here we are not speaking about minorities.
Then of course, there will always be someone that will dislike your choice OOCly. I have seen a lot of people litterally hating IC slavers and sometimes the player behind (since they do not seem to make the difference), considering that is probably the most common case of OOC prevailing on IC when the OOC feelings are strong enough to bypass everything that has to remain IC, but I have also seen cases linked to a lot of other conflicts as well (for example, anti Federation hatred of an imaginary blending Gallente = USA, etc). As long as it does not lead to OOC bleeding everywhere it is fine. I can't bear myself a lot of tropes coming from Geek Social Fallacies that Mata linked an article about in another thread, and the people playing "everyone are friend, and the people thinking differently than we do must be shuned and gratuitously mocked until the end of times", because this is what I deal with constantly in an OOC/RL basis. I just try not to make that bleed all over ICly since it has absolutely nothing to do with it.
I would even dare say that people are in their right to avoid their character playing with a slaver character if they think that they will not be able to overcome that OOC bleeding, and this is very respectful of them to think that considering what it takes to admit it, but this, as long as it does not go too far : if the player starts simply to ignore everything about slavery, then it is basically equal to deny the PF itself when the character will inevitably be confronted to slavery, since slavery is omnipresent in that universe.
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Why would I want to place "Only slavers allowed!" signs anywhere? It's also not that I am having any deep and fundamental problems with the slavery - OOC morality/ethics conflict. Though I'd rather like to not seeing it happen, it's indeed a fact that it happens, and people are in my opinion free to choose with whom they want to play to what extent as they see fit, for whatever reasons they have. So mainly it's how I answer the "Where have all the slavers gone?" question:
It is socially unrewarding.
For sure, though, there are reasons why I keep playing a slave-holder.
(as to mysticism/shamanism: I agree with your assessment of the situation, Echo. Others don't, seemingly.)
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Most people in the Eve community focus on Colonial Era United States or 1980's South Africa when they think of slavery (yes I know South Africa wasnt a slave country 1980's but go with me here) ...
Interesting, but if anything I would say 1980's South Africa would be closer to a Caldari system than an Amarian one. Poor workers with limited political rights and limited social rights, earning a wage and participating in the free economy.
It was a much different system from the Colonial Era United States.
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/snip
I just can't bring myself to go Renegade, I can't play an Amarrian slaver or someone who actively supports any form of slavery.
/snip
If you eat chocolate, you are supporting real life slavery. (http://thecnnfreedomproject.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/19/child-slavery-and-chocolate-all-too-easy-to-find/)
There is more slaves in the world at the moment than there has ever been in the history of human race.
The price of a slave is between 20(Nepal) to 2000(USA) American dollars.
For me making black and white morality choices in games is a moot point, since pretty much making real life choices on black and white morality would leave you unclad and hungry.
I wholeheartedly support the choice of a person to choose any way they play any game, I just think it tells something about that person.
To me, the thing about Amarrians is the fact that they have the only empire in New Eden that does not lie about what it does.
They are playing with their cards in the open and they justify what they do is by knowing what they do is Right.
They have their Empire, their culture, their God to show for it.
I just feel that the whole term 'slaver' is a bit of a misnomer that has come into play through a mistranslation by the Neocomm.
The more accurate term might be 'a religious Reclaimer of heathens that does not want the poor things to spend eternity in Damnation'.
\o/ Brekkies!
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On the other hand, no one who isn't Amarrian wants to do any real RP (outside of 'hi, how are you') with an Amarrian. It's just too jarring, I guess.
Jarring?
Wow. There must be something wrong with my brain. Actually, there is, but never mind that. In my assortment of characters, I've generally found it easier to RP with Amarr folks than I have Matari or even some Federation types.
What do you mean?
Would like to know as well. As a rule of thumb and from my experience, it's easier to communicate with more-mainstream (in relation to IRL) Caldari and Gallente characters than the culturally alien and in that venue more complex Amarr and Matari ones, with concepts of slaveholding feudal systems and neotribalism ones.
So much for my trying to be vague and polite about things. I grew up in the American Rural South during the 1970s/early-to-mid 1980s1. As such, I do not find it difficult to grok a religion-driven feudal society; dynastic-based authority and other aspects of the planter-sharecropper dynamic (some of which evolved from the plantation owner-slave dynamic after Reconstruction), were social elements at work within my native childhood cultural environment.
1Yes, I'm old. Cope.
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what is the doctrine behind slavery? What is the canonical source of the practice? What are the legitimate IC reasoning that an Amarrian would use? Where are the scriptures an Amarrian would point to in order to support their view of slavery?
the evelopedia says some (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Amarr_Empire) things, but lacks detail :\
The Amarr point to various passages in the Scriptures as a religious reasoning for enslaving other races. Many of the passages are from the Book of Reclaiming, which deals explicitly with the conquest and enslavement of other races. Some, however, are older and more ambiguous. These passages, such as the prophecies of Gheinok the First, Book I, and Book II tell of the fall into darkness of mankind and the anointing of the Amarr as the chosen of God.
ok, but then if you go to the Scriptures (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Scriptures) and look at Book I, II, Reclaiming and Ghienok, then there's hardly anything that seems relevant imo.
There's this:
And the Lord spake, and said, Lo, my people,
Witness, for I have made the worlds of Heaven;
And these worlds I give to you, My Chosen,
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.
None shall stand higher than you save the Sefrim,
Who serve Me as others shall serve you,
For all things under Me serve one higher;
So Amarr shall rule the worlds of the Heavens.
As Garrulor rules the skies; as Frisceas rules the sea;
As Emperor rules Holder; as Holder rules Serf;
Yet all under Heaven serve Me;
So shall Amarr rule the worlds of the Heavens.
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 3.19 - 3.21
everything else from those books, doesn't seem to me to say anything about the idea of slavery.
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So much for my trying to be vague and polite about things. I grew up in the American Rural South during the 1970s/early-to-mid 1980s. As such, I do not find it difficult to grok a religion-driven feudal society; dynastic-based authority and other aspects of the planter-sharecropper dynamic (some of which evolved from the plantation owner-slave dynamic after Reconstruction), were social elements at work within my native childhood cultural environment.
Alright. Didn't mean to be indiscreet in the first place, but I suppose that does provide some explanation and context to what you said.
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I've been thinking about this for a day or so. I can play Mata with religious characters of various flavours. It really is the "enslaving my people" that's the social killer. That applies to Angels and Sansha as well as Amarrians who support their empire. Spaces that are "open" for them to perform in tend to be spaces where Mata will seldom play.
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re: Places being "open to all" automatically becoming closed to all but those of 'lower' standards. Similar principle, almost the same result.
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I can play Mata with religious characters of various flavours. It really is the "enslaving my people" that's the social killer. That applies to Angels and Sansha as well as Amarrians who support their empire.
This is actually a good self-test of whether the character's issue with amarr is a matter of religious culture or the whole slavery part.
A Vherokior/Gallente Angel vs. a True Amarr Holder. Who does your character dislike more? Discuss.
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I can play Mata with religious characters of various flavours. It really is the "enslaving my people" that's the social killer. That applies to Angels and Sansha as well as Amarrians who support their empire.
This is actually a good self-test of whether the character's issue with amarr is a matter of religious culture or the whole slavery part.
A Vherokior/Gallente Angel vs. a True Amarr Holder. Who does your character dislike more? Discuss.
The Angel. The Amarrian Holder's 'crime' was birth into a society and a position in it (or the ability to gain that position) and the baggage that comes with it. Far as many of my toons go, hating on a Holder for being a holder is quite... hypocritical. Might as well complain that a Federal citizen from wherever was born and raised in his/her/it's environment. Now, various levels of debate exist around what Holder's do, obviously, but that's another topic and even then, that topic is taken into context with the Holder's purpose, stated goals, the fact this is considered normal in Imperial society, and ofc. the cocktail of personal traits and methods for each individual.
The Angel, however, is another story entirely. Your typical Angel, no matter where they are from, have no overlying purpose for their actions that can be considered benign save survival. I, as well as my toons, can understand that. The means employed however are detestable and capsuleers who join the angels have no real need for 'survival' - this is covered by default as part of the whole 'being a capsuleer' thing - ergo all the remaining reasons revolves around personal enrichment. Obviously, all capsuleers aim for this in some form or other, but not all go out of their way to join a faction that see to this need nearly exclusively at the cost of everyone else. Angels, Guristas, Serpentis, Blooders... factions like this offer absolutely no excuse for the capsuleer that joins, and hardly any for your average non-egger members.
The EoM, Sansha and other 'kill all humans' factions is rather self-evident and require no explanation.
In short, the Amarr might get flak for what they do and why, but there are other, infinitely worse offenders out there, and all will be judged by their actions and beliefs, set in context to whom they are and from where, etc.
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IMO the negative slaver-bias is (largely) a result of real-world bias. Most of us take quite a bit of our real-life morality into the game.
There are a lot of children from our reference groups who play-pretend to be pirates, our perhaps mercenaries/bounty hunters (Boba Fett), and gangsta culture is quite popular. Slavery is not popular and (also very important) totalitarian religious fundamentalism also isn't.
That's why Verone and Veto are cool guys in most RP circles, while most Amarr loyalists aren't (yes, I mean IC). Merdaneth doesn't understand (IC) why many people have great respect for those that kidnap and kill thousands for personal profit, but would despise those who try to uplift a dozen of slaves. I have sometimes let him such express these things, but never got much traction.
I have great respect for Louella who has managed to create an slaver persona that is still religious fundamentalist, but due to emphasis on specific aspects of her play, managed to avoid being stereotyped with our own ingrained culture images and thus suffering less of the current 'slavers-woe'.
Additionally, woe to the person who starts playing something like an ancient Greek culture style pederast btw. Our real-life sensibilities would likely cause most people to absolutely despise his role, while its a perfectly acceptable EVE culture alternative.
But let's not forget that those who play religious fundamentalist (not necessarily slavers) rarely would want to mingle outside their own circle as well. Of course, this is crap for RP, but not all RP archetypes lend themselves well for it.
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^
THIS. FUCKING THIS.
I agree with everything Merdaneth pointed out. I've been annoyed at this myself and wondered how the RP scene in EVE could have been if piracy, rebelling against authorities and generally being a 'free-spirit quasi-bad' persona was not generally considered to be "cool", IRL. I'm no more a fan of slavery in thsi world than others here, but I happen to be disgusted with things like piracy, overt-betrayal, theft/murder and harming others for shits and giggles, let alone fucking profit, as well. Why don't pirates and joy-full mass-murderers get much smack from the self-appointed 'honorable' toons around?
They are cool and edgy, for starters. I think we have had this discussion before. Likely several times, in fact.
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^
THIS. FUCKING THIS.
I agree with everything Merdaneth pointed out. I've been annoyed at this myself and wondered how the RP scene in EVE could have been if piracy, rebelling against authorities and generally being a 'free-spirit quasi-bad' persona was not generally considered to be "cool", IRL. I'm no more a fan of slavery in thsi world than others here, but I happen to be disgusted with things like piracy, overt-betrayal, theft/murder and harming others for shits and giggles, let alone fucking profit, as well. Why don't pirates and joy-full mass-murderers get much smack from the self-appointed 'honorable' toons around?
They are cool and edgy, for starters. I think we have had this discussion before. Likely several times, in fact.
Because that means you limit your RP to two or three people in some hidden private channel. Been there, done that, palmed much face. It even limits you from RP with your "allies" since pretty much everyone's allies will be kicking it with pirates and so on anyway. However, it's not like there's any real bias against slavers. Even the Matari side will be hugglefucking slavers all over the place for the sake of convenience. When pointed out it'll be "oh but we are trying to win hearts and minds!" or some crap like that.
In short, advocating any kind of "stick to your guns/principles/whatever" is completely pointless in Eve, since that will basically cut you off from almost all the RP that ever happens. Make some kind of excuses and go give your mortal enemies a nice sloppy kiss.
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I'd rather they kiss the pointy end of my gun while I squeeze the trigger ever so gently.
But that's me. I suspect 'returning to EVE and RP' will be about as lonely as my toon is right now.
I'll cope. I'll have to as I'm not interested in bending nor breaking.
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Well, just because some Matari can behave in public and are able to be polite, it doesn't follow that they are " hugglefucking slavers all over the place for the sake of convenience." Social repercussions are often subtle and the subtle ones are often the most effective.
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What I don't understand is people seem to see any attempt at being diplomatic or less-than-total-annihilation as being "huggle" RP. It doesn't make sense to me at all. Yes, you can be overtly hostile toward a group of people and yet still be generally diplomatic and even understanding toward individual within that group.
There's a lot of representation for the "we should all hate and kill one another without question or remorse" viewpoint in this thread and a lot of negativity toward individual who may choose a less guns-blazing way of approaching other people. Both sides are viable and both sides are realistic.
You can even have a staunchly patriotic supremacist that recognizes the value of diplomacy or a highly opinionated loyalist that understands the value of understanding another people/culture. Just because someone isn't always "you're my enemy RAWR DIE!" to everyone they meet that isn't the same bloodline/nation/faction/etc as they are doesn't mean they're being "huggle" RPers.
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What I don't understand is people seem to see any attempt at being diplomatic or less-than-total-annihilation as being "huggle" RP. It doesn't make sense to me at all. Yes, you can be overtly hostile toward a group of people and yet still be generally diplomatic and even understanding toward individual within that group.
I suspect that it's the frequency of it that makes such attempts seem that way, even if the intention was otherwise. When the majority try to be diplomatic and understanding towards enemies, it can quickly start to seem saccharine -- for me, anyway.
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You take your words directly from my soul, Malcolm. :)
I don't think that there's too many diplomatic individuals in EVE, rather the opposite is my general experience, Kyber.
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I don't know, before I left I saw a lot of "well, politically I abhore them, but I guessssss they're okay guys really". Whether this is good or bad depends on the situation and your personal leaning.
Incidentally, trying to be "diplomatic" isn't necessarily actually being diplomatic. They can be as pig-headed as they like, but still be all hugs and tea parties with people who'd adore to see their faction of choice dismantled in its entirety.
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Kyber's touching on my experience with his words. I've damn near never seen anyone take a stand and say "Yeah, no... not going to mingle with that scum." in Eve. Well, I've seen them say it, but then there's always that exception. Exceptions. You know... everyone.
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Ulf can be diplomatic. And is almost always polite to people, even ones he'd be happy to shoot in the face.
But that doesn't mean he'll socialise with them by choice.
Part of my problem is a lack of situations where it makes sense for him to even talk with people that he wouldn't be happy socialising with.
Going back to the pirate thing; I don't see that Pirates are automatically given more of a social pass in my circles than slavers. (Although people who only pirate in Amarr space aren't really pirates to Ulf.)
While VETO mostly stayed out of the republic, Ulf would visit the last gate. Since VETO and EM ended up shooting each other and setting each other red, Ulf has only been to the Last Gate once, to engage in some social chit-chat in return for getting some freed slaves that he could take back to the republic. (See! reason to engage!)
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There's also the whole "Summit/IGS" persona vs. in-person persona dichotomy. Aldrith can be facetiously polite with people on public, digital mediums, while if he ever saw them in-person he'd tear off their heads and eat their hearts.
Even in certain social situations, such as at Silas's party, he is polite until he is ready to make a stand, come what may in that moment. In fact, politeness can even be used as a weapon in itself: by proving oneself to be more controlled and disciplined than one's enemy you gain an upper-hand, especially if the confrontation is going on in public. A stoically silent/well-mannered foe can make someone spewing a flood of curses and threats look utterly foolish.
Now, get the same two people alone in a room together and things might go down very differently. However, remember that 'hostile' characters will rarely ever see each other in an environment where violence could occur, so testing these theories is often difficult. Best to sort out these differences in space, the actual game medium.
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... Sansha and other 'kill all humans' factions is rather self-evident and require no explanation.
In short, the Amarr might get flak for what they do and why, but there are other, infinitely worse offenders out there, and all will be judged by their actions and beliefs, set in context to whom they are and from where, etc.
I am interested in an expanded dialogue on this particular point.
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I think whether you end up being "locked out" of RP circles by a choice not to engage with a given faction(s)' members is heavily dependent on how uniform an entity your character (and, as has been suggested here, you the player) views the faction to be. Perhaps this could be extrapolated into the practical vs. the purist character arguement - Esna, for instance, falls heavily into the Practical end of that arguement, which means he is more than willing to look and seek breaks in the uniformity of a given faction. This, in turn, means he will be more than willing to seek differences in nominally "hostile" factions, approach the people he finds reasonable and palatable to deal with to make ties he can pull on with them, and exclude those he does not. The factions he still believes to be uniform - for example, Nation or the Blooders - he simply won't approach.
For a more purist character who would regard all members of a given faction as hostile, regardless of personal differences between members of that faction - yes, I could see how ending up being excluded from large portions of RP would be an issue.
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Kyber's touching on my experience with his words. I've damn near never seen anyone take a stand and say "Yeah, no... not going to mingle with that scum." in Eve. Well, I've seen them say it, but then there's always that exception. Exceptions. You know... everyone.
People are hypocrites and easily give in to social pressure.
One of my neighbor's sons is part of the KKK. Both my neighbor and her children are very open about their racism... but they have black friends. Her son is an EMT, which means he worked with a number of black and Hispanic people, but he's never suggested that he'd leave his job. I'm liberal and actually do anti-racist work, but I haven't moved to get away from my racist neighbors.
I know another woman who thinks her hairdresser is gay and believes gays are going to hell, but she hasn't changed hairdressers.
I think what you're describing is SOP even among the extremists of the world.
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... Sansha and other 'kill all humans' factions is rather self-evident and require no explanation.
In short, the Amarr might get flak for what they do and why, but there are other, infinitely worse offenders out there, and all will be judged by their actions and beliefs, set in context to whom they are and from where, etc.
I am interested in an expanded dialogue on this particular point.
Human physiology, genetics, and body-related assets are all hardware. Given sufficient technology individual parts can be replaced, repaired, optimized, etc. A man who loses a hand in an accident - regardless of replacing it or not - still resides under the Human condition, because what makes a "human" is all software, or the mix of memories, emotions, personality traits etc. that comprise what we refer to as the "soul".
Ergo, compromising or destroying this software is technically grounds for termination of the "human" condition - when the information that made a human what it was is lost, we call the new condition death.
" In secret facilities deep within Stain the relatively new Jovian capsule technology was combined with illegally modified existing brain implants to create slaves with the thoroughness of a computer and the ingenuity of humans. People that would be completely loyal and dedicated to Sansha and his dream, yet creative enough to handle complex and delicate situations.
Considered incapable of conventional thought the Trues are known for silent, slow, efficiency. They show little emotion and follow their orders relentlessly. Death and damage are not greatly feared, and rather than mourn their dead in typical ways their biomass is often reprocessed for sake of efficiency."
Sansha's True Slave program essentially creates a force of mindless, "soulless" machines with a noticeable edge (human ingenuity) over stock robotic forces such as combat drones, battle androids and shackled AI programs. They are basically robots with human-brains for control chips. "Dead" is an apt description for their... condition.
In short, Sansha's stated goals may be benevolent but the reality is pretty much that a victory for his nation means the effective end of the Human species.
Keep in mind that all the above is my opinion and my definition of a human can be debated for... well, forever. "What does it mean to be human" is a never-ending topic, after all.
*EDIT* Btw, I love your avatars. :cube: What are they from?
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Human physiology, genetics, and body-related assets are all hardware. Given sufficient technology individual parts can be replaced, repaired, optimized, etc. A man who loses a hand in an accident - regardless of replacing it or not - still resides under the Human condition, because what makes a "human" is all software, or the mix of memories, emotions, personality traits etc. that comprise what we refer to as the "soul".
By that reasoning, a car must have a soul. After all, I can repair, replace, and optimize it. If I remove a wheel or a headlight, it's still a car.
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The Adeptus Mechanicus agrees.
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What is that on your lip?
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Milk.
Stolen milk.
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He stole it out of a penis.
(http://i.imgur.com/fiUWO.jpg)
/run awaaaayyy
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Human physiology, genetics, and body-related assets are all hardware. Given sufficient technology individual parts can be replaced, repaired, optimized, etc. A man who loses a hand in an accident - regardless of replacing it or not - still resides under the Human condition, because what makes a "human" is all software, or the mix of memories, emotions, personality traits etc. that comprise what we refer to as the "soul".
By that reasoning, a car must have a soul. After all, I can repair, replace, and optimize it. If I remove a wheel or a headlight, it's still a car.
I am not sure if going into religious debates is a good idea...
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Human physiology, genetics, and body-related assets are all hardware. Given sufficient technology individual parts can be replaced, repaired, optimized, etc. A man who loses a hand in an accident - regardless of replacing it or not - still resides under the Human condition, because what makes a "human" is all software, or the mix of memories, emotions, personality traits etc. that comprise what we refer to as the "soul".
By that reasoning, a car must have a soul. After all, I can repair, replace, and optimize it. If I remove a wheel or a headlight, it's still a car.
You missed my point about 'software' and got side-tracked on the other terminology. No Human female has ever given birth to a car.
At least, not that I know of...
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... Sansha and other 'kill all humans' factions is rather self-evident and require no explanation.
In short, the Amarr might get flak for what they do and why, but there are other, infinitely worse offenders out there, and all will be judged by their actions and beliefs, set in context to whom they are and from where, etc.
I am interested in an expanded dialogue on this particular point.
Human physiology, genetics, and body-related assets are all hardware. Given sufficient technology individual parts can be replaced, repaired, optimized, etc. A man who loses a hand in an accident - regardless of replacing it or not - still resides under the Human condition, because what makes a "human" is all software, or the mix of memories, emotions, personality traits etc. that comprise what we refer to as the "soul"...
*EDIT* Btw, I love your avatars. :cube: What are they from?
I see. We could argue the merits, for instance I find the notion of trying to retain purely 'human' characteristics very restrictive. As food for thought, old sciences considered it inviolable that the Sun orbited the Earth. The audacity to challenge that notion and find reasoning led to... well.
As for my avatar, refer to here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o7ixdHQj3O4&feature=relmfu) and here (http://www.wizards.com/magic/tcg/products.aspx?x=mtg/tcg/products/newphyrexia).