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[Lyn Farel]

The only alternative I see is a lock breaker module, but it is also harmful for the logi fleet trying to assist the actor using it... :/

[Lyn Farel]

I'm not entirely clear on the limits of dev control of NPC ships. However.

In the Sansha events the actors had huge spawns of NPC attack ships. What if a convoy type actor had a small NPC escort and logistic retinue that would have to be killed before the actor could be affected? This would give defenders time to rally & provide their own support.

CONCORD don't seem to react to shooting at NPC craft so this would also mean the attackers could start the engagement without getting killed themselves. Defenders could enter the resultant limited engagement simply by using a support module on one of the defending NPC ships. If the actor also does this then that makes them a participant and thus freely shootable by the attackers.

I am not sure to like the idea that CONCORD sits idly, doing nothing,

[Louella Dougans]

I'm not entirely clear on the limits of dev control of NPC ships. However.

In the Sansha events the actors had huge spawns of NPC attack ships. What if a convoy type actor had a small NPC escort and logistic retinue that would have to be killed before the actor could be affected? This would give defenders time to rally & provide their own support.

CONCORD don't seem to react to shooting at NPC craft so this would also mean the attackers could start the engagement without getting killed themselves. Defenders could enter the resultant limited engagement simply by using a support module on one of the defending NPC ships. If the actor also does this then that makes them a participant and thus freely shootable by the attackers.

To the extent of my awareness, control over NPCs is both fickle and the tools for them are deplorable. This was an issue throughout the Sansha events, and the most that could reliably done for them is : ignore target, focus fire on target. I am not certain if the new team has had gotten resources for new tools, if not then they are still very limited.

This is an interesting idea, though, if it could be researched further.

Goliath said that they “do have tools but they are not maintained” and that it was a big problem with NPC involvement. They can spawn NPCs but cannot control their actions very well. The old live events team had tools that would allow them to exercise more control over the NPCs (like how a player controls drones) but “the guy that made that tool is no longer around” and they don’t have any programmers on their team to get that fixed. It is, however, a priority to get these tools updated.

from the CSM December 2012 minutes thing

a few other passages mention NPC usage, and problems with it.

[Louella Dougans]

Also, there is another option, I believe, to afford the important ships some level of protection, while still allowing them to be damaged, without requiring anything new.

I think (uncertain), that one of the AURORA special ISD implants makes the ship untargetable, it's what ISD and GM ships use, afaik.

As an implant, then the actor would be able to unplug it, to react to unscripted events unfolding.

As far as I know, the ship would still be damageable by area effect weapons. Smartbombs and the like. Which can be defended against. Tactic of "Goalkeeper". Friendly ships surround the VIP, preventing a smartbomb ship getting close.

[Grideris]

Also, there is another option, I believe, to afford the important ships some level of protection, while still allowing them to be damaged, without requiring anything new.

I think (uncertain), that one of the AURORA special ISD implants makes the ship untargetable, it's what ISD and GM ships use, afaik.

As an implant, then the actor would be able to unplug it, to react to unscripted events unfolding.

As far as I know, the ship would still be damageable by area effect weapons. Smartbombs and the like. Which can be defended against. Tactic of "Goalkeeper". Friendly ships surround the VIP, preventing a smartbomb ship getting close.

To be honest, just using the other AURORA implants can make some really tanky ships stupidly tanky. The set gives an extra 40% resistances to shield and armour as well as 40% more raw armour and shield. With a really tanked ship, OGB (yes, event actors can actually fleet with players - it's just they didn't want to this time) and implants, you can get a decent number of battleships close to if not over 1mil EHP with just T2 gear. That's pretty hard to gank (I think it's 84 Alpha tornadoes hitting near perfectly). Not to mention, with those resistances, logistics ships are going to be doing some serious work.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

OK. If NPC's are hard to control & players should be the main agents of change then how about this?

Defending players gate in & see an attacking fleet (or scan it if it is waiting off grid). If the event actor character is from a CONCORD signatory they use their pull to get killrights on the attackers and then assign them to the escorting players. This does seem a little unfair on pirate loyalists though. However one would assume that pirate live events would mostly happen in low-sec where CONCORD intervention isn't an issue.

On a side note. If you have decent standings with a pirate faction do their NPC's stop shooting at you? And if not, why not? If Empire navies shoot you for being -5 or worse surely rats should ignore you for being +5 or better?

[lallara zhuul]

I think 'rats and NPCs are two different entities in the base code of the game.

Hence your standings have no effect on them.

[Saede Riordan]

On a side note. If you have decent standings with a pirate faction do their NPC's stop shooting at you? And if not, why not? If Empire navies shoot you for being -5 or worse surely rats should ignore you for being +5 or better?

I wish. CCP doesn't want to implement that because they don't want people to be able to mine in nullsec free of interference from rats.

[Morwen Lagann]

I think 'rats and NPCs are two different entities in the base code of the game.

Hence your standings have no effect on them.

FW rats in plexes used to ignore you if you had good standings even if you weren't in FW or had terrible sec status. Not sure if this changed with the changes to NPCs or not, but it was incredibly useful as a pirate operating in the warzone.

[Vincent Pryce]

On a side note. If you have decent standings with a pirate faction do their NPC's stop shooting at you? And if not, why not? If Empire navies shoot you for being -5 or worse surely rats should ignore you for being +5 or better?

Having Angel Cartel 8.66 and Archangels 10.0, Guardian Angels 9.95, Dominations 9.89 with Salvation Angels holding the end of the line 7.94, I can tell you they don't stop shooting you and I find it highly irritating when having to hold on gates in low or nulsec with Angels rats on the gate.

I guess the code is set permanently aggressive for pirate NPCs or some such. 

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

OK, fair enough. The question about pirate NPC agro is a bit of a distraction from the main point of the thread but I was curious.

CCP seem to to a reasonable job of incorporating the crazed behavior of the average player into their lore. What if they posted a standing warning in the guides to the game & in the official forums that firing on any sort of faction VIP (i.e an event actor) will crash your standings with that faction to the point were you become KOS? Further, heckling one in-game should also have lesser consequences (say, a loss similar to shooting an NPC ship). Also if people use an obvious disposable alt then the penalty transfers to the main on the same account.

By obvious I mean has less SP than the main, and only has enough training to carry out the attack that is the cause of the penalty. Further, if the alt is then biomassed that could be further confirmation that the main takes responsibility. I suppose that might lead to really persistent folks running an account just to spawn alts though.

[Matoko]

CCP seem to to a reasonable job of incorporating the crazed behavior of the average player into their lore. What if they posted a standing warning in the guides to the game & in the official forums that firing on any sort of faction VIP (i.e an event actor) will crash your standings with that faction to the point were you become KOS? Further, heckling one in-game should also have lesser consequences (say, a loss similar to shooting an NPC ship). Also if people use an obvious disposable alt then the penalty transfers to the main on the same account.

By obvious I mean has less SP than the main, and only has enough training to carry out the attack that is the cause of the penalty. Further, if the alt is then biomassed that could be further confirmation that the main takes responsibility. I suppose that might lead to really persistent folks running an account just to spawn alts though.

It's not a bad idea, the problem is that it would require more effort. I used to admin a Freelancer server, so there's a few things I remember from that time, some of which can draw over to what this suggestion runs into trouble with. First, you have to find the character in question. Not always as easy as you think, especially with 100+ pilots all in one system. Then you'd have to look into the account that character is on, and find out if there are any others. Then you have to work out which one is the main character. And that's all assuming there's only one account; a lot of high-end Eve players use multiple accounts (which boggles my non-PLEXian mind to no end).

Then, of course, you run into trouble for applying penalties to a character that may have nothing to do with what happened. While I wish there was something more permanent, applying a punishment to an account just doesn't seem right.

[Merdaneth]

I'm not opposed to Dev modding of events. Just opposed against obvious Dev modding.

But from what I've read the Devs simply lack many of the proper tools for less obvious modding.

However, I would have used things like subterfuge in this case. Have the Tribal Issue Tempest piloted by non-essential NPCs made to look like the essential NPCs (the false identity can be revealed upon proper inspection of the background). That way some people get to blow up those ships, while the essential NPCs still make it out alive.

[lallara zhuul]

The problem is that since the beginning of EVE, the informorph (the player) has never been accountable for the actions of the character.

I don't think they will change that to give special treatment to live events.

[Sakura Nihil]

In theory, slapping harsh standings changes on organizations for their choices in live events (good or bad) should be the way to go... however, the harsh standings could be avoided by using alts, and ground back up to neutral or positive.  Plus, if you make the standings change too severe in the negative direction, people will bitch about "you just fucked over my gameplay! QQ QQ QQ" and so on.  Could always have these actors slide around in cloakers if there's a high potential for suicide ganking.

Still, the best way to solve this whole thing is make sure that live events individuals piloting ships in space are capsuleers like us.  It allows them to stay alive, get pissed off and retaliate on the gankers by bounties, sec hits, or making them KOS for the empire's navy.  Just thinking out loud though, it's past midnight here.