Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 03 May 2011, 06:42
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(decided to reword it)
I think that, the invasion of Luminaire was comparable to 9/11, but having to dig around in PF to really grasp the "scale" of this is another issue with how CCP present their fiction. A newbie won't have no idea why the Gallente and Caldari are fighting, so perhaps pushing the event as this sort of 9/11, catastrophic event that traumatized an entire nation will be much better at giving people a better point of reference for why exactly the Gallente and Caldari are fighting.
Not sure, there might have been some cases people have said IC and in RP that "Gallente and Caldari shouldn't be fighting!", then replied with "But they killed millions of us when they invaded Luminaire, and have a titan blahblah", with a resounding "o" as a reply.
:psyccp:
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I think that, the invasion of Luminaire was comparable to 9/11, but having to dig around in PF to really grasp the "scale" of this is another issue with how CCP present their fiction. A newbie won't have no idea why the Gallente and Caldari are fighting, so perhaps pushing the event as this sort of 9/11, catastrophic event that traumatized an entire nation will be much better at giving people a better point of reference for why exactly the Gallente and Caldari are fighting.
The proposed scale and public reaction might very well be plausible here. However, there are examples of franchises which have been ready to sacrifice the consistency of their game worlds to avoid this analogy and the possible related negative response. So maybe it's not good to push this idea to newbies. Maybe it would be better just to keep repeating the old arguments about the Gallentean supremacism and orbital bombardments.
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So, there is a problem with trying to push the Invasion of Luminaire/Liberation of Caldari Prime as comparable to terrorist attacks on the US in 2001, the terrorist did not occupy New York for 3+ years.
Also, the terrorist attacks of 2001 are not actually at the forefront of the minds of the majority of the electorate or elected most of the time (arguably even by 2004 other "issues" had overtaken them). Would the Gallente similarly push it to the back of their minds (if it was comparable to the attacks)? I would think yes.
No, the IoL/LoCP is not the Federation's September 11, 2001.
I think it is more like the exist of Israel today or West Berlin in the Cold War. This enclaves of "the enemy" represent a constant reminder of the enemy's existence and the threat they posse to the "defending" society.
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All Fed/Caldari OOC arm wrestling aside, there's an extent to which Seriphyn's analogy is sound.
From a Federal perspective, I feel that the occupation of Cal Prime would have an impact on the Federal psyche similar to that of 9/11 on the US - to create an atmosphere of nationalist fervour and fear, and I think that Seri has been trying to play on some of this with his 'Black Eagle' RP.
The amount of time having passed now could almost create a post 2005 effect when Bush's popularity started to plummet after 'Mission Accomplished' and other events.
Trying to remain apolitical here.
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/facepalm
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Huh?
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The invasion of Luminaire makes pretty much as much sense as the Finnish Defence Force taking Viipuri (now Vyborg, Russia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vyborg) by a surprise strike. (Except the issue where the Caldari Navy is a whole lot more prepared to fight wars than the FDF.) What makes the comparison fit quite well is that Vyborg is a bit over 100 km from St. Petersburg, the second-largest city in Russia and the former capital of the Russian Empire.
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/facepalm
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When I say 9/11, I say that the feelings and reactions to it is similar, not the actual act itself being a terrorist one. Let me quote directly from the State of the Cluster document.
The dominant emotion among the citizens of the Federation is confusion. There are a lot of questions to which they want answers – from their leaders, from their military, and from themselves. How did this happen? Why did we not see it coming? How is it that we couldn't stop it? Are we really that soft and weak and defenseless? Who can we trust? What should we do? What should we feel?
Some blame Foiritan personally and some blame the political leadership as a whole, though few truly understand what happened or why. Others lay the responsibility at the feet of the military, trying to ignore their own complicity in the shortage of resources and personnel. Some blame their fellow citizens – particularly those of other races, occupations, or walks of life – often due just as much to older and deeper misgivings than to the current situation. There are a very few who blame themselves.
But all of them curse the Caldari - them and their barbaric leader Heth.
Then, a well-executed operation into a foreign country to extract the Federation's Most Wanted (Anvent Eturrer) and then execute him in front of a "party patriotic" crowd on the Fed's cultural capital.
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/facepalm
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Hold on, why are people being unreasonable for? If you're going to /facepalm, then EXPLAIN why the reactions of the American public after 9/11 is NOT the same as the reactions of the Gallentean public after losing Caldari Prime.
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I'm a little unconvinced about the utility and tastefulness of equating relatively recent RL events with fictional in-game ones. In particular, there's so many differences in circumstances and background and surrounding culture that I think it's a bad analogy.
The world of EVE is a much bloodier one than ours, and I would suspect that our characters are more hardened to war and bloodshed than many of the players (self certainly included!). The tides of invasion, occupation and revolt are ones that wash over many many people in EVE, and that can't help but affect outlook.
Having said that, the Malkalen Incident and the occupation of Luminaire VII were, from my understanding, events that sent shockwaves far and wide. I don't think it's necessary to draw exact comparisons for people to find incidents in their own experience that have similar impacts, if not in exactly analogous situations.
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Any major military attack and occupation of an entire city throughout history has more in common with the invasion than 9/11.
Since we also declared war on Germany the next day, Pearl Harbor would be the most appropriate analogy to the Federation's response after the invasion. :D
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So now instead of comparing the (arguably genocidal) firebombing of Dresden, Hamburg and many other german cities during the second world war you compare 9/11 to a full blown war with hundreds of thousands of casualties?
Sorry Seriphyn, but you should really take a step back and do some hard thinking on that part :psyccp:
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You missed the point Laerise. Maybe I still have difficulties to see where Seri is going with that comparison, he was only comparing the people reaction after the 9/11 to the one after the caldari attack. The similarities are in the fact nobody was expecting that, and they were deeply shocked (and still are). In a time of peace.
WW2 carpet bombings on german and english cities are a totally different thing, taking place in a war. I am not sure we are comparing "genocides" here.
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You missed the point Laerise. Maybe I still have difficulties to see where Seri is going with that comparison, he was only comparing the people reaction after the 9/11 to the one after the caldari attack. The similarities are in the fact nobody was expecting that, and they were deeply shocked (and still are). In a time of peace.
WW2 carpet bombings on german and english cities are a totally different thing, taking place in a war. I am not sure we are comparing "genocides" here.
My point regarding the inappropriate comparisons stands. It has nothing to do with people contemplating events in an online game, but with the tendency of Seriphyn to compare game events to real life events - and the trivialisation of the later in some of those cases.
However, if we consider the alternative you just proposed then not only the invasion/reclaiming of caldary prime might be counted amongst those goundshaking events, but also the elder's assault on CONCORD and the minmatar raids against amarrian core worlds.
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How about not comparing everything we do to a RL event? It's EVE, not Earth's Matrix.
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How about not comparing everything we do to a RL event? It's EVE, not Earth's Matrix.
The Matrix is real? If so, I think it is analogous to the surge in Iraq.
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Seri, the thing they have in common is maybe that they were unexpected shocking events.
What's 9/11 for you might not be 9/11 for somebody else. I personally find events like the Rwandan genocide much more shocking than the 3,000 deaths that were caused by 9/11.
Since such things might be different for everyone, and many of those events are sensitive issues for many people, I don't thing comparing those things in the emotional sense is any good.
As far as a factual comparison of 9/11 to a actual EVE event, I think the ramming of Alexander Noir's Nyx into the Ishukone HQ is much more reminscent of 9/11.
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Prehaps picking a RL event that is still fresh in the hearts and minds of the people that it affected was not a wise choice. There are a ton of atrocities to choose from in human history that you can choose from that aren't emotionally tied to our current generation.
Prehaps the invasion of Poland during WWII with the blitz would be suitable example imo.
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Wow.
The amount of trashing of Seri for a fairly innocuous comparison is really unfair.
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Wow.
The amount of trashing of Seri for a fairly innocuous comparison is really unfair.
It seems people still get emotional about the 9/11 event, and dont like it being compared to a fictional in-game event.
I dont think Seri was trying to factually compare the evrents, but try to demonstrate how an event and cause a servere emotional reaction in people that lived though it or was around at the time that it happened.
The OOC reference to this event, and not to the fire bombings in Poland, were most likely due to the fact that Seri did not live though those events, like many of us on this board.
I dont see anything wrong with trying to make IRL connections to in game events if it will help you to try understand the complexities of a situation. Hes not saying that the in-game event is factually like 9/11, but the emotional reaction that the populace may have might be similar. If it helps Seri, or others, to understand the fictional world by looking at real life emotional reactions that people have, whats the problem?
The reaction displayed here by people trying to have a go at him, unfairly, because he is trying to rationalise and understand an emotional response in a fictional world is unwarrented.
Nowhere did I see him trying to trivialise the 9/11 attack.
It sort of drives home the point he was making for me.
Edit: A common response to the Caldari/Gallente conflict is "it was justified" or "get over it". Try saying that to someone who has been affected by any modern conflict IRL and see their reaction.
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I fully agree with Graanvlokkie up there.
Trying to get to the correct negative emotions and irrational thinking displayed by the Gallente and Caldari it can be necessary to let you inspire by reactions to real world events. This is by no means a way of putting similarity between real and fictional events, only in the emotions they provoke.
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Wow.
The amount of trashing of Seri for a fairly innocuous comparison is really unfair.
It seems people still get emotional about the 9/11 event, and dont like it being compared to a fictional in-game event.
I dont think Seri was trying to factually compare the evrents, but try to demonstrate how an event and cause a servere emotional reaction in people that lived though it or was around at the time that it happened.
The OOC reference to this event, and not to the fire bombings in Poland, were most likely due to the fact that Seri did not live though those events, like many of us on this board.
I dont see anything wrong with trying to make IRL connections to in game events if it will help you to try understand the complexities of a situation. Hes not saying that the in-game event is factually like 9/11, but the emotional reaction that the populace may have might be similar. If it helps Seri, or others, to understand the fictional world by looking at real life emotional reactions that people have, whats the problem?
The reaction displayed here by people trying to have a go at him, unfairly, because he is trying to rationalise and understand an emotional response in a fictional world is unwarrented.
Nowhere did I see him trying to trivialise the 9/11 attack.
It sort of drives home the point he was making for me.
Edit: A common response to the Caldari/Gallente conflict is "it was justified" or "get over it". Try saying that to someone who has been affected by any modern conflict IRL and see their reaction.
Quoted for awesome. ;)
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Yes I agree too.
And Eve has always been directly IRL inspired. A lot of RL themes are central in Eve, and the geopolitical atmosphere is very contemporary to our world. Denying that would be going against the creative process behind the PF itself.
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I disagree with his proposition that the people of the Federation reacted to the TEA in the same way as the people of the United States reacted to Sept 11.
The US, with the support of its people, went after the organization the perpetrated Sept 11.
The Federation's leadership made the concession and then we got FW.
Was it a shocker that their military could not defend them? Certainly. Which led to the Federation building up and stomping the next invasion (one of the Amarrian Heirs).
Would a citizen in Solitude/Placid/Verge Vendor/even other parts of Essence actually care about Luminaire other than as a symbol? Caldari Prime wasn't there home and the Titan is not directly threatening them.
What is the end goal of establishing a 3 year old emotional state for the Federation? Do you think it will be fresh in their minds or like the United States are they more concerned with their favorite sports teams records?
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[mod]Feel free to disagree with the OP or any other post in the thread, but please avoid any personal attacks.[/mod]
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As far as a factual comparison of 9/11 to a actual EVE event, I think the ramming of Alexander Noir's Nyx into the Ishukone HQ is much more reminscent of 9/11.
I agree. This is the more like the starting point for the chain of events which led to Roden's election and still goes on.
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Since we also declared war on Germany the next day, Pearl Harbor would be the most appropriate analogy to the Federation's response after the invasion. :D
FWIW, Germany declared war on the United States first, as part of their pact with Japan. The US just made it mutual to save Germany weekly ISK payments.
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Another terrorist leader has been killed! (http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011/05/09/galaxy/outer-rim/obi-wan-kenobi-is-killed.html)
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I think the invasion of Luminaire is indeed best compared to an occupation of a city/region, rather than a terrorist attack on a set of symbolically meaningful and tragically people-bustling buildings. I think Seri was talking more about the emotional impact of the thing though than its exact definitions.
Which brings me to something I've talked about with a few euros in regards to 9/11.
There's a general sense of what the US did afterward being rather uncalled for in a lot of people (and I would certainly agree on at least the case of the Iraqi invasion), but I also think a lot of euros espousing such views are not able to put themselves in the shoes of a citizen of a nation that was thus attacked. Having raised this counterpoint, I've often heard the argument that not every nation would respond to such a national crisis in a similar way.
I would certainly agree with that too and I am not entirely sure how my own country would respond in such an event, but to finally address the point of the OP : I don't think copy-pasting the American mentality on top of the Federation is appropriate here. I don't see the Federation as an America analogue. Hence, I'm leery about saying that the mental impact of 9/11 is a good analogue for the mental impact concerning the invasion of Luminaire, either.
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Another terrorist leader has been killed! (http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011/05/09/galaxy/outer-rim/obi-wan-kenobi-is-killed.html)
I laughed so much at the comments under this article.
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Sorry for all the flak you caught, Seriphyn. As a United States citizen, I feel can safely say that it is far overdue that we stop treating 9/11 with such delicacy. There is no place for white gloves in history...unless you are dealing with decayed paper artifacts. That said, I don't think the comparison is very apt for a couple of reasons:
1. Many to most Americans had never heard of al-Qaeda before 9/11, whereas the Gallente population was aware that a big ole Caldari state existed out there that--while not in open conflict--was definitely not cuddly.
2. A professional military invasion followed by ongoing occupancy is quite a bit different than single-shot suicide bombing.
If I had to pick an event in Western history to sit next to the Luminaire Invasion for comparison--and this is still a bit of a stretch--I'd pick Pearl Harbor. Nobody was expecting an attack, but the stage was set for it as relations were going sour. It thrust both countries into a huge, prolonged conflict. Granted, the Japanese did not occupy Oahu...but they did go on to occupy some other territories (Guam, the Philippines, Wake...). Also, I can imagine Foritain's response being something like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrVI6ENDL8Y&feature=related).
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Another terrorist leader has been killed! (http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011/05/09/galaxy/outer-rim/obi-wan-kenobi-is-killed.html)
I laughed so much at the comments under this article.
That article was win, pure and simple.
And yeah, I lol'ed at the comments too.
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Another terrorist leader has been killed! (http://www.galacticempiretimes.com/2011/05/09/galaxy/outer-rim/obi-wan-kenobi-is-killed.html)
I laughed so much at the comments under this article.
That article was win, pure and simple.
And yeah, I lol'ed at the comments too.
epic