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[Helen Ohmiras]

Walking in Stations is, to me, a secondary consideration. I love EVE. I love RP. I love immersion. I love flying in space. I can wait on Walking in Stations if it means that CCP, eventually, will be able to implement the "AWESOME" they've promised.

Making EVE a true Sci-Fi Simulator is going to be a long process, and a process that will take more than the 6 month development cycles that EVE is designed around. I think CCP finally realized this, and perhaps one day they will be able to change how things are done. DUST 514 is a good step in that direction, and perhaps DUST will finally get more people interested in Walking in Stations.

Here's my opinion: until CCP can offer FPS gameplay that may have a personal impact (see the Future Vision video) most players will be "meh". What Walking in Stations, establishments, and all the rest need are mechanics that are optional and have the potential to enhance gameplay. Right now, CCP can't deliver that. It would be a monumental task, and one they would need to focus on as almost an entirely new game. As Hilmar stated, they don't have the resources for that, and don't have the backing financially to pull that off. Maybe if they made a single player WoD game showing the potential for Carbon they would be able to get people excited about it to the point that EVE would become something SO much more than it is now. That day isn't soon though. 

So, I will wait, I will fly my ship, and dream of shooting my competitors in the back while standing in a station and wearing a pretty dress physically simulated by my graphics card. 

[Lydia Tishal]

PvP games do not require any significant social components. 'PvP' is not the main focus of Eve. Eve is a game about organization building, and at all levels player conflict is the catalyst that drives it.

From a small team of specialists to a fleet of hundreds, the player that can assemble and retain a group that suits his or her goals will be successful. In Eve, the ability to network is just as important as combat skill or market savvy.

The vast majority of people that play this game will never set foot in a roleplay channel.

Incarna is not a roleplaying feature, it is a networking tool. Corporate hubs, research/planning centers, recruitment offices, strategic command centers-- "Assemble and Retain" should be the focus here. You don't need large spaces to accomplish this, and as such I think the technical issues are surmountable. 

I don't think the current "establishments" concept adds any value to Eve. Hamish is right, people who want to sit in a bar will do so in a chat channel. Almost no one is going to window shop. But in an environment where diplomacy and politics are inescapable and trust and betrayal are such huge facets of the game, the ability to see other players as more than a spreadsheet entry introduces an important human element to Eve that is currently lacking.

In my opinion, CCP currently has no viable roadmap to integrating Incarna with Eve. Until they do, they are much better off making sure Eve's primary driver, player conflict, is running smoothly. But organization building is the key feature that separates Eve from every other game on the market, and eventually Incarna must come to play a role in that if Eve is going to survive.

[Valdezi]

While I agree that EVE as a game is about more than PVP, I would say that part of the frustration with WiS stemmed from the fact that CCP had left many elements of the Spaceships-side of the game untended, such as the utter shitness of Gallente ships, while they tinkered with WiS. If they'd have paired Incarna with some good changes to the ships side of the game it may have been more well received.

They seem to be trying to compensate for that now by overtly listening to the playerbase and tinkering with a number of ships in ways players want while pushing WiS aside, which could be an overcompensatory step. Perhaps a slow roll-out of WiS is what is needed rather than shelving it entirely.

[Wanoah]

Honestly, people probably wouldn't have complained if they'd got this:

http://youtu.be/Dzy7DG8VR2s

Or maybe, things would have been interesting if Dust was a PC Game.

As it stands, that link and that preceding sentence probably sum up years of failure that will be difficult to recover from. WiS is stillborn and completely unworthy of the original concept. The decision to make an FPS for some couch dwellers who only have thumbs is simply bizarre. That idea of Eve becoming the ultimate sci fi sim...that dream that sounded so fucking exciting six or so years ago is probably just as distant as it ever was. It's a damn shame is what it is.

Right now, what we should have had is the seamless integration of internet spaceships with explorable station environments offering a wealth of entertainment and business opportunities. We should have been eagerly looking forward to the next expansion. An expansion introducing fully integrated FPS-style combat elements to the existing game. Factional Warfare would become a game of space battles and planetary conquest using ground troops. We should have been anticipating sending boarding teams to assault capital ships. We should have...well, meh. There was so much promise there. It's hard to believe how badly they blew it.

[Saikoyu]

I had forgotten about that video.  Yeah, whatever happened to all of that.  Somewhere in CCP there are probably 3 or so mostly finished versions of walking in stations that they have demoed at some point in time I think.  Why don't they just pick one, fix it up and release it, and make sure there is a way out when the thing crashes.

And hey Amarrian Hair Thingies!  **Is still pissed about losing them**

[Robert Kauliford]

Lets be honest one of the reasons Incarna didn't live up to the hype is the fact that CCP had to make the engine run on the average PC.

To push Louella's diamond analogy it's like CCP wanted to make this flawless diamond and were give a pick axe and a chainsaw to work with. You only have to look back to the trinity update to see how many players still run eve on PCs which would no longer be considered state of the art to put it mildly

[Bacchanalian]

I love the avatars. That was damn important, imho.

This.

In the end you'll sit or stand next to each other or in a circle, looking at the chat channel. Punching that idiot in the face? Yeah, you'll do that standing next to each other, watching idle animations of your chars.

Also this.

Honestly, people probably wouldn't have complained if they'd got this:

http://youtu.be/Dzy7DG8VR2s

I was just about to go looking for that video. 

[Milo Caman]

Honestly, people probably wouldn't have complained if they'd got this:

http://youtu.be/Dzy7DG8VR2s

Love the Idea of WiS, but the initial (and current) implementation was piss poor. Being locked in a Matari Broom cupboard that makes your computer overheat and the game slightly harder to play is not what most people had in mind, especially after videos like that.

[Myyona]

If only they gave us the ability to decorate the CQ it would have been something to play around with. Even Fallout 3 and NV, that are more FPS than RPG, had bothered with giving you a "base of operations" that you could decorate. The only thing I can choose right now is what to play on the big screen.

[Myrhial Arkenath]

It's really very simple, imo. You cannot make everyone happy and it is a sure road to failure when you try and do this. They work on space, the WiS supports whine. They work on WiS, and the space supporters whine. And then even within the groups of supporters there will be subgroups that whine. Someone will always be unhappy. It's a harsh reality. The only thing you can do is to make sure that you do not make a majority unhappy. Which is what Incarna did.

This expansion, we're getting a ton of really awesome stuff. CCP did a full turn and got things back on track. Yes, it is space, which is a part of EVE, and plenty people care about that. How do you know this? Because subscriber data shows just that. This is not a case of "listening to the forum whiners" because they are, at best, a vocal minority. This is a case of a player base voting with the subscription button. And that is what has effect.

I think it is too soon to say CCP "has abandoned" WiS. That's just needlessly spreading panic. Wait and see. Besides, we are getting three racial CQ this expansion. So that pretty much voids the argument. Yes, it is great and all to brainstorm on what more could be, but such things take time, and CCP is not entitled to exclusively develop one feature. Loads of people play this game. They all pay so that CCP can make the stuff you want. So if you want something, understand it takes time. And if you don't like that, you're free to donate a huge chunk of money to CCP so they can fulltime put a team on whatever it is that you want <_<

Sorry if this sounded like a rant, but it's really getting to me that when we get a finger, people want a whole hand, and when they get the hand, they are unhappy because they didn't get the whole arm.

[Sakura Imoru]

It's really very simple, imo. You cannot make everyone happy and it is a sure road to failure when you try and do this. They work on space, the WiS supports whine. They work on WiS, and the space supporters whine. And then even within the groups of supporters there will be subgroups that whine. Someone will always be unhappy. It's a harsh reality. The only thing you can do is to make sure that you do not make a majority unhappy. Which is what Incarna did.

This expansion, we're getting a ton of really awesome stuff. CCP did a full turn and got things back on track. Yes, it is space, which is a part of EVE, and plenty people care about that. How do you know this? Because subscriber data shows just that. This is not a case of "listening to the forum whiners" because they are, at best, a vocal minority. This is a case of a player base voting with the subscription button. And that is what has effect.

I think it is too soon to say CCP "has abandoned" WiS. That's just needlessly spreading panic. Wait and see. Besides, we are getting three racial CQ this expansion. So that pretty much voids the argument. Yes, it is great and all to brainstorm on what more could be, but such things take time, and CCP is not entitled to exclusively develop one feature. Loads of people play this game. They all pay so that CCP can make the stuff you want. So if you want something, understand it takes time. And if you don't like that, you're free to donate a huge chunk of money to CCP so they can fulltime put a team on whatever it is that you want <_<

Sorry if this sounded like a rant, but it's really getting to me that when we get a finger, people want a whole hand, and when they get the hand, they are unhappy because they didn't get the whole arm.

I think you misunderstood me. I have no problems with CCP finally fixing some bugs / giving FiS some love. Most of the issues they are resolving now are long overdue.

I have a problem with all those pigheaded bitter-vets who run around the official forums these days, declaring victory over WiS and showing off it's hide, claiming to have stomped it into the ground for good. THAT is what's pissing me off.

[Lyn Farel]

As much as I said above that these cunts disgust me, I do not think that it is very sane to "get so pissed off" just for that. They are just morons. They are not CCP.

[Bacchanalian]

I have a problem with all those pigheaded bitter-vets who run around the official forums these days, declaring victory over WiS and showing off it's hide, claiming to have stomped it into the ground for good. THAT is what's pissing me off.

Since when has whining by anyone other than the carebear majority in EVE who want to sit in highsec and farm isk safely all day had much influence over CCP?  :bittervet:

[Morwen Lagann]

Besides, we are getting three racial CQ this expansion. So that pretty much voids the argument.

While I agree with the rest of your post, this statement stood out to me as being inaccurate, because those CQs would not be being included if they hadn't already been finished. They were supposed to be released back in August, according to promises from CCP over the summer.

CCP may not have abandoned WiS, but putting in content that's been finished for a while already is not a good example to use to prove your point.

And a brief mod-hat, because it seems people need a quick reminder: Please tone down the language. I know this is a sensitive subject for some/many of us, but please try to refrain from calling other players "retards" or "cunts".

[Myrhial Arkenath]

Besides, we are getting three racial CQ this expansion. So that pretty much voids the argument.

While I agree with the rest of your post, this statement stood out to me as being inaccurate, because those CQs would not be being included if they hadn't already been finished. They were supposed to be released back in August, according to promises from CCP over the summer.

CCP may not have abandoned WiS, but putting in content that's been finished for a while already is not a good example to use to prove your point.

Yes, they could have been released already, except they weren't, because the CQ we had was a bad base to build upon, so they took the errors out of that (because melting pc's is bad), because else they'd have 4 CQ's to improve upon.

I think both of us are right in a way, I see your point, had they been out there might not be any new WiS station content if we base it off that no further has been announced / CCP chooses to focus on space in this patch. However, had they been finished, there might be other WiS content still, because they might have started on something new already. If the focus is on space, that doesn't have to mean a full exclusion of stations, imo.

Sakura, this wasn't specifically aimed at you, it was more of a general rant about the fact that because of WiS / FiS there will always be a party unhappy. It's the same for high/low/null. And racial supporters. And what else. EVE is bigger and more complex than other MMO's out there, so if anything, we're on the worse end of the scale when it comes to subgroups feeling targeted / excluded.