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General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Sakura Imoru on 08 Nov 2011, 07:56
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(Disclaimer: This is just my opinion, nobody has to share it. I do not claim to post any facts/truths here and consider myself open-minded enough for a genuine discussion about this topic. But if you just want to troll about this issue please join one of the x threads on the official forums, thank you :|)
OK, I really need to let off some steam, but with the official forum having way to much trolls these days I think this forum is the better place to do so.
As the title might suggest it's about the current "discussion" about the future of WiS, but also about how people act about it, and especially the latter is annoying me these days.
I have no problem with the fact that CCP has returned to working on the FiS-part of EvE again, there surely are tons of issues that have waited for fixing long enough, although it does leave a bad taste in my mouth as once again CCP published some half-finished and buggy content just to abandon it like it is (and no, the 3 remaining quarters we get soon don't count as CCP even admitted they were ready anyhow). But that's not the thing that really annoys me.
What does annoy me is reading all those narrowminded trolls/bitter-vets who, although CCP have said it since the beginning, do not want to accept that EvE is supposed to be a "SciFi-simulator", not only an "I'm the ubar-l33t-PvP-champ, you n00b"-shootin'-stuff-game. Granted, PvP is the core element of FiS, there is no way to avoid it, even if you are a high-sec carebear... just enter the market :P.
But people need to understand that a "SciFi-simulator" is not only PvP. Hell, I don't know any SciFi-franchise, even the most dystopian one, where people only fly/walk around and kill everything in sight. Heros and villains alike need to rest, they talk, flirt, fall in love (or just have sex to release the pressure), argue, get a drink, start a bar brawl, spend the night in the brigg.....
Those guys run around claiming that EvE is just FiS, and WiS is a game on it's own, trying to invade EvE like a disease or a parasite. No, it isn't! WiS is just as much a part of EvE as FiS is. EvE = FiS + WiS! And no name-calling will change that (e.g. Space-Barbies).
I assume that in reality those guys are just afraid that instead of undocking and letting themselves get blown up needlessly if stationcamped a wartarget will just look around the station to have some fun in the local bar. But you know what? That wartarget would nowadays just log off. The result: The same, no killmail for the campers. So just HTFU and deal with it. WiS is here, it's going to stay and once The DoorTM opens it's going to be awesome.
Phew, getting that wall of text from my mind surely felt good :D
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To be honest, in the end, I'm kind of upset that CCP caved into all the whining and shelved WiS.
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I don't think being able to walk around stations would really add anything to the ultimate scifi experience. I'm hardly in the "Uber l33t" crowd and would in fact welcome additions to the game that would make in more immersive.
I just don't see how it could add that much to the ultimate sci-fi experience. It would take a whole lot of work and resources for very little pay out towards that goal, and in my opinion actually be less immersive than RP chat. I feel that there are other things CCP could be doing besides WiS that would move the game farther toward the ultimate sci-fi experience for less cost in time, resources and money.
I respect CCP's ability to realize that the gain of WiS doesn't come close to equaling it's opportunity cost to other areas of the ultimate sci-fi experience.
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To be honest, in the end, I'm kind of upset that CCP caved into all the whining and shelved WiS.
Thay did WHAT, now? If this is true this is about the most pathetic thing CCP has EVER done.
To the OP; I'm not entierly sure what your annoyed with, but it sounds like your pissed off with the 'eve is only a PVP game' crowd. If so, I'll agree with you on all points. I could go on for hours about how absurd and out-right moronic the idea is, that activeties that are not 100% PVP orineted are somehow not valid, but I'll spare us this hours long typing session in favor of; I agree. Absolutely.
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To be honest, in the end, I'm kind of upset that CCP caved into all the whining and shelved WiS.
Thay did WHAT, now? If this is true this is about the most pathetic thing CCP has EVER done.
To the OP; I'm not entierly sure what your annoyed with, but it sounds like your pissed off with the 'eve is only a PVP game' crowd. If so, I'll agree with you on all points. I could go on for hours about how absurd and out-right moronic the idea is, that activeties that are not 100% PVP orineted are somehow not valid, but I'll spare us this hours long typing session in favor of; I agree. Absolutely.
If your emphasis of the bolded part is on "only" then you understood me just right ;)
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I'm with Hamish.
Realistically I doubt CCP will ever get WiS to a stage of being significantly more immersive than chats. It'll be too clunky and lacking in features. If so it can only be a distraction from FiS - which mostly works.
Or maybe I'm just cynical.
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I'm with Hamish.
Realistically I doubt CCP will ever get WiS to a stage of being significantly more immersive than chats. It'll be too clunky and lacking in features. If so it can only be a distraction from FiS - which mostly works.
Or maybe I'm just cynical.
Just as with Sakura, I agree on this point as well - but while walking in stations won't have the same impact, and it might take alot of work and time, it's still something that alot of people have wanted for a long time and frankly, skimping out on this for good would be a serious waste. If WiS really is on hiatus, I hope it's ONLY a hiatus and not an overtly long one - whatever one thinks of this, CCP has stated that they wanted it, and promised it to their players - ergo, they are commited and pretty much have to deliver.
Ofc, they did also promise a funtioning FW etc, so... /cynical.
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Here's how the EVE works, in my experience.
Whatever we have, we don't like.
Whatever we're going to get, we don't like.
Once we have it, we're disappointed by it.
Once it's gone, we're mad we don't have it anymore.
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I love the avatars. That was damn important, imho.
WiS is, well, nice. Would be nice to have more than the CQ, too. It is a big investment of resources for a rather small actual benefit. As much as a nice 3D enviroment helps with visualization, I'm automatically limited by it, too. Avatar appearance, too.
It is one thing to use imagination to create a mental image from scratch. Another thing is to use imagination to override something you see. Possible without a doubt, but really worth the massive amounts of resources needed?
Done it in every MMO I've played. In the end you'll sit or stand next to each other or in a circle, looking at the chat channel. Punching that idiot in the face? Yeah, you'll do that standing next to each other, watching idle animations of your chars.
They might be able to accomplish that some time down the road, and I'd really want to see it, but focusing on FiS is way more important for the game, since it is a game about internet spaceships.
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Here's how the EVE works, in my experience.
Whatever we have, we don't like.
Whatever we're going to get, we don't like.
Once we have it, we're disappointed by it.
Once it's gone, we're mad we don't have it anymore.
I dont like this post, I didnt like the idea of this post before it happened, Im disappointed in this post.....
(...but dont take it away, or I'll be mad, its trufax)
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The big problem was Incarna was an incomplete project on such a massive scale that any hope they had of convincing people that this wasn't a bad idea was destroyed the moment they tried to push $60 monocles, force you to use the CQ that killed your hardware (no dual boxing for you), and introduced only one CQ with no option for player interaction. It fell flat on its face because they RUSHED the expansion out and had ZERO to show for it; no wonder there was such a backlash against it, and now it just solidified all the opinions of those who knew it was a bad idea.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrtwESnTOwY
look how the character steps on the stairs in that.
now look at your character in the CQ.
now go :|
it's not just it being a single-player room with few interactable objects. It's not just the clothing being a bit :| in terms of style. it's not just the awkward posing where every female character is wearing heels and is doing the glamour model arched back pose that thrusts out the chest. It's not just the clipping issues with the outfits. It's not just the size of female characters chests being tweaked to suit the NeX item meshes.
Those things are disappointing, but are just superficially disappointing. lack of polish on a rough diamond sort of thing.
but seeing the videos of things like the physically simulated clothing, where the character is interacting with the environment, stepping on stairs instead of gliding over them, taking steps to turn around instead of just rotating, and then looking at what was delivered in Incarna, and it is hugely disappointing. to go with the rough diamond i mentioned before, looking at the things of what Incarna was promised as, and then looking at what was delivered, it is not a rough diamond, it's a rough piece of cut glass, not even a gemstone.
and that's quite a bit more disappointing.
and it's like, I'm not angry, i'm not upset, just disappointed.
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I've heard more than one person suggest (and at this point, I'm inclined to believe them) that the reason CQ was shelved wasn't because people disliked Incarna, but that the CQ engine was in severe need of development/rewriting.
With only one player and their walk-in closet causing people's computers to do their best Chernobyl imitation, it wasn't reasonable to expect that CCP could just tack on the ability to interact with other players' avatars, walk in larger spaces, or any of the other things we've been demanding - at least not without finishing melting down those few of us who could safely run Incarna.
No, what they would have had to do is spend an enormous amount of time - I'd peg it at over six months, meaning Winter Expansion and quite possibly most of next Summer too - having their people pour over the Incarna engine and do everything they could to optimize it. Because the real Incarna people would be off developing the other CQs, establishments, etc. the real grind-work would have to be done by other EVE devs. This would mean less work being done on FiS stuff.
And frankly, the community wouldn't stand for another expansion with so little content. While I'm all for a balance between CQ/Incarna development and FiS development - and yes, I realise this will result in an extraordinarily low rate of work on Incarna-related stuff - I don't think I would stand for 1 1/2 more expansions just to give us the ability to sit down in a bar either.
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Call me naive or overly optimistic but, I feel like if any good came of this whole mess, it was CCP realizing their mistake and learning from it. It seems like, gods willing, they're getting back to working on actual improvements.
Yes, nebulae are an aesthetic thing, but it's something that improves on an existing feature. Incarna's failed release, by comparison, was a needless aesthetic added to the game.
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Needless for you.
I am with Sakura with this. I have been waiting for WiS since day one, and will always do for immersion purpose. If that does not add immersion to you, well, I can understand it, but it does for me. I have no problem with people telling that it is not something they want. After all, when they add new content that I am not really interested in, I do not complain. It is a good thing that keeps the game healthy. What I hate is retards that thinks that just because it does not interest them, then that new content is not needed. I have been very patient with that kind of morons for more than a year now, and CCP eventually screw it up so bad that it made them feel that they were right to complain about it, and this disgusts me.
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Walking in Stations is, to me, a secondary consideration. I love EVE. I love RP. I love immersion. I love flying in space. I can wait on Walking in Stations if it means that CCP, eventually, will be able to implement the "AWESOME" they've promised.
Making EVE a true Sci-Fi Simulator is going to be a long process, and a process that will take more than the 6 month development cycles that EVE is designed around. I think CCP finally realized this, and perhaps one day they will be able to change how things are done. DUST 514 is a good step in that direction, and perhaps DUST will finally get more people interested in Walking in Stations.
Here's my opinion: until CCP can offer FPS gameplay that may have a personal impact (see the Future Vision video) most players will be "meh". What Walking in Stations, establishments, and all the rest need are mechanics that are optional and have the potential to enhance gameplay. Right now, CCP can't deliver that. It would be a monumental task, and one they would need to focus on as almost an entirely new game. As Hilmar stated, they don't have the resources for that, and don't have the backing financially to pull that off. Maybe if they made a single player WoD game showing the potential for Carbon they would be able to get people excited about it to the point that EVE would become something SO much more than it is now. That day isn't soon though. ;)
So, I will wait, I will fly my ship, and dream of shooting my competitors in the back while standing in a station and wearing a pretty dress physically simulated by my graphics card. :twisted:
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PvP games do not require any significant social components. 'PvP' is not the main focus of Eve. Eve is a game about organization building, and at all levels player conflict is the catalyst that drives it.
From a small team of specialists to a fleet of hundreds, the player that can assemble and retain a group that suits his or her goals will be successful. In Eve, the ability to network is just as important as combat skill or market savvy.
The vast majority of people that play this game will never set foot in a roleplay channel.
Incarna is not a roleplaying feature, it is a networking tool. Corporate hubs, research/planning centers, recruitment offices, strategic command centers-- "Assemble and Retain" should be the focus here. You don't need large spaces to accomplish this, and as such I think the technical issues are surmountable.
I don't think the current "establishments" concept adds any value to Eve. Hamish is right, people who want to sit in a bar will do so in a chat channel. Almost no one is going to window shop. But in an environment where diplomacy and politics are inescapable and trust and betrayal are such huge facets of the game, the ability to see other players as more than a spreadsheet entry introduces an important human element to Eve that is currently lacking.
In my opinion, CCP currently has no viable roadmap to integrating Incarna with Eve. Until they do, they are much better off making sure Eve's primary driver, player conflict, is running smoothly. But organization building is the key feature that separates Eve from every other game on the market, and eventually Incarna must come to play a role in that if Eve is going to survive.
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While I agree that EVE as a game is about more than PVP, I would say that part of the frustration with WiS stemmed from the fact that CCP had left many elements of the Spaceships-side of the game untended, such as the utter shitness of Gallente ships, while they tinkered with WiS. If they'd have paired Incarna with some good changes to the ships side of the game it may have been more well received.
They seem to be trying to compensate for that now by overtly listening to the playerbase and tinkering with a number of ships in ways players want while pushing WiS aside, which could be an overcompensatory step. Perhaps a slow roll-out of WiS is what is needed rather than shelving it entirely.
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Honestly, people probably wouldn't have complained if they'd got this:
http://youtu.be/Dzy7DG8VR2s
Or maybe, things would have been interesting if Dust was a PC Game.
As it stands, that link and that preceding sentence probably sum up years of failure that will be difficult to recover from. WiS is stillborn and completely unworthy of the original concept. The decision to make an FPS for some couch dwellers who only have thumbs is simply bizarre. That idea of Eve becoming the ultimate sci fi sim...that dream that sounded so fucking exciting six or so years ago is probably just as distant as it ever was. It's a damn shame is what it is.
Right now, what we should have had is the seamless integration of internet spaceships with explorable station environments offering a wealth of entertainment and business opportunities. We should have been eagerly looking forward to the next expansion. An expansion introducing fully integrated FPS-style combat elements to the existing game. Factional Warfare would become a game of space battles and planetary conquest using ground troops. We should have been anticipating sending boarding teams to assault capital ships. We should have...well, meh. There was so much promise there. It's hard to believe how badly they blew it.
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I had forgotten about that video. Yeah, whatever happened to all of that. Somewhere in CCP there are probably 3 or so mostly finished versions of walking in stations that they have demoed at some point in time I think. Why don't they just pick one, fix it up and release it, and make sure there is a way out when the thing crashes.
And hey Amarrian Hair Thingies! **Is still pissed about losing them**
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Lets be honest one of the reasons Incarna didn't live up to the hype is the fact that CCP had to make the engine run on the average PC.
To push Louella's diamond analogy it's like CCP wanted to make this flawless diamond and were give a pick axe and a chainsaw to work with. You only have to look back to the trinity update to see how many players still run eve on PCs which would no longer be considered state of the art to put it mildly
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I love the avatars. That was damn important, imho.
This.
In the end you'll sit or stand next to each other or in a circle, looking at the chat channel. Punching that idiot in the face? Yeah, you'll do that standing next to each other, watching idle animations of your chars.
Also this.
Honestly, people probably wouldn't have complained if they'd got this:
http://youtu.be/Dzy7DG8VR2s
I was just about to go looking for that video.
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Honestly, people probably wouldn't have complained if they'd got this:
http://youtu.be/Dzy7DG8VR2s
Love the Idea of WiS, but the initial (and current) implementation was piss poor. Being locked in a Matari Broom cupboard that makes your computer overheat and the game slightly harder to play is not what most people had in mind, especially after videos like that.
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If only they gave us the ability to decorate the CQ it would have been something to play around with. Even Fallout 3 and NV, that are more FPS than RPG, had bothered with giving you a "base of operations" that you could decorate. The only thing I can choose right now is what to play on the big screen. :(
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It's really very simple, imo. You cannot make everyone happy and it is a sure road to failure when you try and do this. They work on space, the WiS supports whine. They work on WiS, and the space supporters whine. And then even within the groups of supporters there will be subgroups that whine. Someone will always be unhappy. It's a harsh reality. The only thing you can do is to make sure that you do not make a majority unhappy. Which is what Incarna did.
This expansion, we're getting a ton of really awesome stuff. CCP did a full turn and got things back on track. Yes, it is space, which is a part of EVE, and plenty people care about that. How do you know this? Because subscriber data shows just that. This is not a case of "listening to the forum whiners" because they are, at best, a vocal minority. This is a case of a player base voting with the subscription button. And that is what has effect.
I think it is too soon to say CCP "has abandoned" WiS. That's just needlessly spreading panic. Wait and see. Besides, we are getting three racial CQ this expansion. So that pretty much voids the argument. Yes, it is great and all to brainstorm on what more could be, but such things take time, and CCP is not entitled to exclusively develop one feature. Loads of people play this game. They all pay so that CCP can make the stuff you want. So if you want something, understand it takes time. And if you don't like that, you're free to donate a huge chunk of money to CCP so they can fulltime put a team on whatever it is that you want <_<
Sorry if this sounded like a rant, but it's really getting to me that when we get a finger, people want a whole hand, and when they get the hand, they are unhappy because they didn't get the whole arm. :(
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It's really very simple, imo. You cannot make everyone happy and it is a sure road to failure when you try and do this. They work on space, the WiS supports whine. They work on WiS, and the space supporters whine. And then even within the groups of supporters there will be subgroups that whine. Someone will always be unhappy. It's a harsh reality. The only thing you can do is to make sure that you do not make a majority unhappy. Which is what Incarna did.
This expansion, we're getting a ton of really awesome stuff. CCP did a full turn and got things back on track. Yes, it is space, which is a part of EVE, and plenty people care about that. How do you know this? Because subscriber data shows just that. This is not a case of "listening to the forum whiners" because they are, at best, a vocal minority. This is a case of a player base voting with the subscription button. And that is what has effect.
I think it is too soon to say CCP "has abandoned" WiS. That's just needlessly spreading panic. Wait and see. Besides, we are getting three racial CQ this expansion. So that pretty much voids the argument. Yes, it is great and all to brainstorm on what more could be, but such things take time, and CCP is not entitled to exclusively develop one feature. Loads of people play this game. They all pay so that CCP can make the stuff you want. So if you want something, understand it takes time. And if you don't like that, you're free to donate a huge chunk of money to CCP so they can fulltime put a team on whatever it is that you want <_<
Sorry if this sounded like a rant, but it's really getting to me that when we get a finger, people want a whole hand, and when they get the hand, they are unhappy because they didn't get the whole arm. :(
I think you misunderstood me. I have no problems with CCP finally fixing some bugs / giving FiS some love. Most of the issues they are resolving now are long overdue.
I have a problem with all those pigheaded bitter-vets who run around the official forums these days, declaring victory over WiS and showing off it's hide, claiming to have stomped it into the ground for good. THAT is what's pissing me off.
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As much as I said above that these cunts disgust me, I do not think that it is very sane to "get so pissed off" just for that. They are just morons. They are not CCP.
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I have a problem with all those pigheaded bitter-vets who run around the official forums these days, declaring victory over WiS and showing off it's hide, claiming to have stomped it into the ground for good. THAT is what's pissing me off.
Since when has whining by anyone other than the carebear majority in EVE who want to sit in highsec and farm isk safely all day had much influence over CCP? :bittervet:
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Besides, we are getting three racial CQ this expansion. So that pretty much voids the argument.
While I agree with the rest of your post, this statement stood out to me as being inaccurate, because those CQs would not be being included if they hadn't already been finished. They were supposed to be released back in August, according to promises from CCP over the summer.
CCP may not have abandoned WiS, but putting in content that's been finished for a while already is not a good example to use to prove your point.
And a brief mod-hat, because it seems people need a quick reminder: Please tone down the language. I know this is a sensitive subject for some/many of us, but please try to refrain from calling other players "retards" or "cunts".
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Besides, we are getting three racial CQ this expansion. So that pretty much voids the argument.
While I agree with the rest of your post, this statement stood out to me as being inaccurate, because those CQs would not be being included if they hadn't already been finished. They were supposed to be released back in August, according to promises from CCP over the summer.
CCP may not have abandoned WiS, but putting in content that's been finished for a while already is not a good example to use to prove your point.
Yes, they could have been released already, except they weren't, because the CQ we had was a bad base to build upon, so they took the errors out of that (because melting pc's is bad), because else they'd have 4 CQ's to improve upon.
I think both of us are right in a way, I see your point, had they been out there might not be any new WiS station content if we base it off that no further has been announced / CCP chooses to focus on space in this patch. However, had they been finished, there might be other WiS content still, because they might have started on something new already. If the focus is on space, that doesn't have to mean a full exclusion of stations, imo.
Sakura, this wasn't specifically aimed at you, it was more of a general rant about the fact that because of WiS / FiS there will always be a party unhappy. It's the same for high/low/null. And racial supporters. And what else. EVE is bigger and more complex than other MMO's out there, so if anything, we're on the worse end of the scale when it comes to subgroups feeling targeted / excluded.
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To be honest, in the end, I'm kind of upset that CCP caved into all the whining and shelved WiS.
Thay did WHAT, now? If this is true this is about the most pathetic thing CCP has EVER done.
To the OP; I'm not entierly sure what your annoyed with, but it sounds like your pissed off with the 'eve is only a PVP game' crowd. If so, I'll agree with you on all points. I could go on for hours about how absurd and out-right moronic the idea is, that activeties that are not 100% PVP orineted are somehow not valid, but I'll spare us this hours long typing session in favor of; I agree. Absolutely.
The whining had nothing to do with it. Money had everything to do with it.
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True. I do not attribute the readjustment of course to the forum whines or the "effort" of the CSM; it was drop in subscriptions after Incarna, contrary to the normal increase after an expansion release, that made it happen. Props to CCP for reflecting and reacting upon it, though.
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Honestly, people probably wouldn't have complained if they'd got this:
http://youtu.be/Dzy7DG8VR2s
To be fair, I had a blast trying make Hamish walk up the ramp and singing 'Thriller' at the top of my lungs while he flailed about. Sent my wife into giggle fits.