Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE Guides, Mechanics & Gameplay => Topic started by: Alizabeth on 15 Dec 2012, 13:34
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I have no idea who ISD Suvetar is, but they apparently know nothing of Alizabeth's character. They've deleted a couple of her IC posts now, thinking they were OOC. :bash: As I read the IGS boards, I am shocked at the poor quality of most of the OP there. Needless to say, this distresses me, so I made a post on how to make good posts. This is the repost here, since the ISD locked it and Falcon calls it trolling.
(Note, I have reformatted it from the original IGS posting)
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As I read these boards, I find that quite a few people have no idea how to make a good post. I am making this instructional post in order to teach the community how to make good original posts in an effort to improve the quality of these boards.
A forum post should be as short as possible in order to get the point across. A good analogy would be a skirt, long enough to cover the subject matter, short enough to keep things interesting. A good posts covers the who, the what, the when, the where, the why and the how. Remember the why is double edged. It needs to not only cover the motivations of the poster, but why the reader should care.
I will use a practical example. I-RED recently put out a press release about killing some Serpentis.
Here is how it should have been worded:
In the relatively quiet hours of around At 08:00 standard time [a date would be nice], an I-RED/Ishukone Watch taskforce launched a surprise [raids are by definition a surprise] raid on an advanced Serpentis research installation hidden within the 98Q "superpocket" in Syndicate. The facility itself was rather small, the reason why pinpointing its location proved so difficult [we already know it was hidden, telling us again adds nothing], but extremely well defended. The raid was originally scheduled to take place sometime in the relative future, but its execution was accelerated following the recent destruction of Rilnais. Furthermore, intel reports suggested the Serpentis were in the process of evacuating the facility in order to relocate deeper into Serpentis-controlled territory; thus, an immediate and prompt response was required. [Reword to:] The raid's timetable was stepped up due to the events in Rilnais and to keep the Serpentis from escaping. The original purpose of the raid was not only to continue in I-RED's ongoing campaign against Serpentis forces established in the Syndicate region, but to raid the facility and confiscate any illegal products and/or research done by Serpentis scientists. [If that was the original purpose of the raid, what was the new purpose? Reword to:] This action was part of our continuing campaign against the Serpentis in the Syndicate region. [The confiscation of illegal products and research goes without saying]
Overall, the raid proceeded rather flawlessly. [This is simply restated in the next sentence.] Accurate intel reports and superb training of I-RED/Watch forces led to a strong execution with minimal losses. The surprised [we know already] Serpentis forces were unable to provide strong reinforcements to defend the facility, and thus they [slight grammar edit] wiped the facility's computers clean of any data or research before our forces could obtain it. Any illegal products were subsequently destroyed, but I-RED/Watch forces did succeed in confiscating some contraband goods that the Serpentis failed to eliminate in time. All captured Serpentis personnel who were not killed in the fight were arrested and transported back to the State for criminal processing and reevaluation.
Of particular note, however, was the cargo retrieved from a heavily defended Serpentis transport that attempted to escape during the battle. The Serpentis forces seemed rather desperate to clear a path for the transport to escape, focusing all their firepower on the Watch frigates who were scrambling the ship's warpdrive. Noticing this, once the main Serpentis battalion was eliminated, the commander of the operation disabled the transport's systems and a boarding party was prepared. Once the transport was breached, a brief firefight ensued and Watch special forces secured the cargo the transport was ferrying - five tons of Isirus poppy. Trace evidence reveals it is from the recent attack in Evaulon, and it is likely only a fraction of what the Serpentis stole. The cargo was secured and currently remains in I-RED possession at this time. It is likely that the Isirus poppies recovered from the Serpentis transport were simply in storage at the research facility until they could be transported to Fountain, however, this is mere speculation. Interrogation reports will hopefully determine the purpose of the poppies at the research facility. [I'm just going to reword this whole paragraph.]
During the engagement one transport was noticed as being heavily defended. The transport was breached by a Ishukone Watch boarding party and secured after a brief firefight and was discovered to have been carrying five tones of Isirus poppy that has been linked to Evaulon. The cargo is currently in I-RED's control. Interrogation of prisoners is ongoing in order to ascertain the purpose of the poppies at the facility.
If Combined Harvest wishes for the return of their product, I-RED will gladly comply. Simply have a representative contact Taisa Korsavius, and an arrangement can be made promptly. Furthermore, if the Federation wishes to cooperate with I-RED in our ongoing campaign against Serpentis forces in Syndicate, opportunities for talks are always open. I-RED deplores the atrocity committed by the Serpentis against Federation civilians in Evaulon, and have since stepped up our anti-Serpentis operations in Syndicate as a response. I-RED formally wishes to extend our condolences to the families of those who lost someone in the attack, and hopes some level of cooperation and coordination can be achieved between the Federation and itself in regards to countermeasures against Serpentis forces. [This paragraph is good. Well done. Just one small edit (that was not in the original post)]
Readability is improved and all the important information is retained. Go forth and make good posts!
A few other rules that would not fit in the original post:
Grammar and spelling are a must. Mistakes happen, but try to limit them.
Avoid the use of capital letters except for acronyms.
Lunacy should be avoided. Another post by a Minmatar about how they want to kill all the Amarrians is not a good post. Anything by Diana Kim is not a good post.
Sarcasm and satire in text form are both difficult to pull off; know what you are doing before you attempt these.
If the reader cannot ascertain what you are trying to convey by the title or the first few sentences, it is not a good post.
For replies, quotes are your friend. You don't have to quote the whole post that you are responding to, just the relevant portion.
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FWIW, I shot the ISD person a message asking them to be more mindful of that, since the only OOC posts were his and the one above it.
My guess is Sepherim reported it for being OOC, then the ISD volunteer glanced it over and said "Sure looks OOC; closed!"
edit; That said it's an entertaining post :V
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You know that this forum is purely OOC ?
I have to admit now that I firstly thought your post on the IGS was OOC as well, and am even more confused. I am not sure if your post is IC or OOC anymore.
It sure feels like OOC to me though.
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It seemed to me to be obviously an IC post. Even though there certainlky seem to be OOC reasons for the post: That is usually the case, as it's trhe player making decisions for the character and not the other way around. And the player needs ooc reasons to let a character react in a certain way or to give the character a certain personality that elicits certain responses from the character in certain situations.
So, the character was distressed by the maddeningly low quality of some posts because the player decided that the character would react in such a way - partly because the player is distressed by those posts.
Now, to be honest, I think that recently we have seen some really bad posts on IGS with a subterranean quality. (As we have times and again before.) Pointing that out and giving a small guide to enhancing quality isn't trolling in my opinion even though it's not the most polite thing to do: It's simply (brutally) honest.
I also think that it's a perfectly justifiable IC action.
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The post was written IC. I assumed that we as characters were posting to a forum in the eve universe reserved for capsuleers. Aliza, being a sarcastic, elitist jerk decided that the IGS forums needed some help in order to improve their quality.
Quote from Falcon:
I've taken a look over the thread in question, and it was locked due to OOC references made with regards to the forums, and was borderline trolling from both an in and out of character perspective.
In this case, good judgement was used on the part of ISD, and as such the thread will remain locked.
:bash: What the hell do capsuleers call a forum if not a forum? I mean, that's what it is! Trolling, maybe. Aliza does not suffer fools lightly. I'm posting it here, so that hopefully people read it. Since the ISD locked it and all. I also note that a few people have contacted me saying they liked the post.
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Ok, my apologies then. It's not always easy to figure out all the context at first.
That may be why.
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IGS: Inter Galactic Summit. Not a forum, but a general communications medium. Players have been known to leave text messages, video-feeds, audio-only messages, images (in the past before the 'new and improved' EVE-O forums) and more. Though the vast majority of the stuff there is obviously text-based there are exceptions. It's not clear then what exactly the summit is but it's not just a forum for text-based stuff.
As I read your post there it struck me as a good post as such (actaully offering some constructive but somewhat insulting advice (You folks suck at posting, duur (even IF that's true in many cases...))) but I was not at all sure about it being OOC or IC. It seems the mods took no chances and felt that the part about it that said 'your posting skillz sux plz fix' was in the realms of trolling.
That may not have been the case, but hey, what can you do?
At least re-posting it here means people will get to see it despite it missing from the IGS. Just not that many.
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My guess is Sepherim reported it for being OOC, then the ISD volunteer glanced it over and said "Sure looks OOC; closed!"
You basing that off of something, or just getting a shot in?
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My guess is Sepherim reported it for being OOC, then the ISD volunteer glanced it over and said "Sure looks OOC; closed!"
You basing that off of something, or just getting a shot in?
I'd guess it's based on a misunderstanding arising from Sepherims post: "Oh, and remember to remain in-character, the IGS is a rp forum so all post should attempt to remain within the gaming world and without references to outside things like the real world, real money, tv programs, etc."
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IGS: Inter Galactic Summit. Not a forum, but a general communications medium. Players have been known to leave text messages, video-feeds, audio-only messages, images (in the past before the 'new and improved' EVE-O forums) and more. Though the vast majority of the stuff there is obviously text-based there are exceptions. It's not clear then what exactly the summit is but it's not just a forum for text-based stuff.
A forum, as far as I see it, is a place for people to come together and interact - especially in discussion. Nothing of it implies that by necessity it's textbased: Already modern internet forums aren't restricted to text messages, but also use video- and audio-feeds, images and more. The forum romanum certainly wasn't text based either. So, I don't see why the IGS can't be reasonably called a 'forum' ICly.
At least re-posting it here means people will get to see it despite it missing from the IGS. Just not that many.
Unfortunately, the people that are here are probably not the ones it was primarily addressed at. But then, it's doubtful whether the ones it was aimed at would have been profiting much from it in the first place.
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IGS: Inter Galactic Summit. Not a forum, but a general communications medium. Players have been known to leave text messages, video-feeds, audio-only messages, images (in the past before the 'new and improved' EVE-O forums) and more. Though the vast majority of the stuff there is obviously text-based there are exceptions. It's not clear then what exactly the summit is but it's not just a forum for text-based stuff.
A forum, as far as I see it, is a place for people to come together and interact - especially in discussion. Nothing of it implies that by necessity it's textbased: Already modern internet forums aren't restricted to text messages, but also use video- and audio-feeds, images and more. The forum romanum certainly wasn't text based either. So, I don't see why the IGS can't be reasonably called a 'forum' ICly.
Perhaps, but it still seems a poor and limiting description, or word to use for it. Not quite sure how to describe what I mean here, except, the IGS seems far... more... than 'just' a forum.
We could possibly even see treads in the IGS utilized as a Holo interface where pilot-representing avatars turn on/off and interact in a sort of event-like interactive manner. I recall this was pretty standard on forums like PBG in the old days - players would make posts describing what their toons did or what went on, then wait for their co-players to interact with this, and so on. Events that took only a few hours in-game might have taken weeks to generate, sort of like a huge interactive story that all the players helped tell.
It's very unlikely we will ever see this in EVE because our game allready has a vast, interactive sandbox for us to play in, we won't have to envision one based on text describing the world, but as far as the IGS goes I think it's completely possible.
Hell, a player's character could go, entierly IC, and create this sort of interactive story IN-UNIVERSE, where other pilots chime in, taking part in the story as they go on. Likely to crash into utter failure as IC-drama ensues and so on, but it's still possible, just not done.
In short - I think treating the IGS as 'simply a forum for capsuleers' don't fully do it justice, but my standpoint is weakened by my lacking ability to fully explain myself. Oh well.
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I've used the IGS alternately as a text based medium and a holovisual medium. Most of the news broadcasts with [Official Tags] I post are video recordings, but smaller posts in other threads are mostly text only.
That said, as an I-RED sub-director of public relations (which includes the area of forum posting) to whom that OP was ostensibly directed at... I took no issue with it. As my character said in the thread, it was surprisingly helpful, and I was going to forward it to Korsavius to take a look at. Hell, I even saved it so I could read it over in more detail later to improve my own news threads.
Doesn't matter to me who posted it. It was a pretty good post.
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I always assumed it was text based unless otherwise specified.
And yes, in character Aliza is mildly offensive. It's not totally intentional on her part; she just knows she is secure in her position and sees no reason to sugar coat anything.
If I had to go back, I would make some obvious IC additions and such.
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My guess is Sepherim reported it for being OOC, then the ISD volunteer glanced it over and said "Sure looks OOC; closed!"
You basing that off of something, or just getting a shot in?
I'd guess it's based on a misunderstanding arising from Sepherims post: "Oh, and remember to remain in-character, the IGS is a rp forum so all post should attempt to remain within the gaming world and without references to outside things like the real world, real money, tv programs, etc."
Correct. It was an assumption based on how the thread played out, perhaps one that should've remained in my head.
It really didn't occur to me that the thread could be construed as OOC until that post.
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Perhaps, but it still seems a poor and limiting description, or word to use for it. Not quite sure how to describe what I mean here, except, the IGS seems far... more... than 'just' a forum. [...]
Well, it surely is more than an 'internet forum' aka 'massage board'. But even though, people mainly treat it as such, they talk about 'threads', 'OPs', 'posts' and such and we've got 'users', 'moderators' and all that.
That aside, my main point is that 'forum' means a lot more than 'internet message board'. And somehow I think it is weird to see how people seem to reduce it to just that. As I pointed out 'forum' stems from the romans, who named the open public spaces in the middle of their cities forum. These were open public spaces where a good part of public life happened: The forum was marketplace, a a gathering place of great social significance, and often the scene of diverse activities, including political discussions and debates, rendezvous, meetings, et cetera. Even though a forum is rarely used as a marketplace nowadays, 'forum' means basically a place to gather for public discussion and possibly other kinds of public activity.
So, I don't see what is limiting about the term 'forum'.
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As an aside, I've noticed that when posting things on the IGS that are unclear if IC or OOC, it sometimes helps to append a brief OOC message at the end of your posts clarifying that you intend this to be an IC discussion or only for discussion among among the RP community. Things I'd point to here would be Silas' investment threads, where he outright says "I'm only interested in IC responses", and the mods left the thread alone.
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As mentioned, it was the use of the word "forum." Regardless of whether that can be used as a correct descriptor, it is such an OOC-laden term that people tend to spaz when you use it. Been that way for a long, long time.
People like to think of it as a literal "summit," where communication can be in a variety of ways. I tend to think of it as a pseudo virtual "General Assembly," but without people showing up in person. *shrug*
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You sure it was the term 'forum' or is that just your opinion? If it was, I think it's quite hilarious, as - as I already pointed out - people have no problem with applying all the other terms we use in respect to internet forums.
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As mentioned, it was the use of the word "forum." Regardless of whether that can be used as a correct descriptor, it is such an OOC-laden term that people tend to spaz when you use it. Been that way for a long, long time.
People like to think of it as a literal "summit," where communication can be in a variety of ways. I tend to think of it as a pseudo virtual "General Assembly," but without people showing up in person. *shrug*
Right, then the post could have changed a couple of words to be IC then. And if the RP community spergs at the term forum, then there is some serious issues.
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As mentioned, it was the use of the word "forum." Regardless of whether that can be used as a correct descriptor, it is such an OOC-laden term that people tend to spaz when you use it. Been that way for a long, long time.
People like to think of it as a literal "summit," where communication can be in a variety of ways. I tend to think of it as a pseudo virtual "General Assembly," but without people showing up in person. *shrug*
If that's fact and not simply speculation this has to be one of the more foolishly narrow applications of a moderator ban-stick I've seen used. It regards English as an almost binary function with single black/white meanings to its words rather than the context-based language set that it is. Nicoletta is right, 'forum' has a wide variety of connotations and one of those connotations - the idea of it being a meeting place where exchange of ideas and dialogue freely occurred - is a very apt (and in-character) description of the IGS. If, as suggested, "people tend to spaz when you use it" in that way, that's their problem not the OP's and reveals some concerning issues within the RP community in general as Isis said.
Better question to ask is why do we always feel the need to moderate for the lowest common denominator?
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Because the internets bring out the best in people.
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As I read these boards, I find that quite a few people have no idea how to make a good post. I am making this instructional post in order to teach the community how to make good original posts in an effort to improve the quality of these boards.
I am only reading this one now, but I can't help but smile at the irony of this post. I completely understand the OOC/IC confusion and the resulting lock. I believe a few slight alterations to the first sentences could have completely avoided this issue:
IC-ized
When I visit this summit, I find that quite a few capsuleers have no idea to how to deliver their message. I am making this instructional post in order to teach the cluster how to make good original messages in an effort to improve the quality of debate on this summit.
IC-ized and Untrolled
When I visit this summit, I find that many capsuleers can improve on how they get their messages across. I am making this instructional post to assist the cluster in providing good original messages and hopefully improve the quality of the summit.
Boards, people, community are words without association with the IC world of EVE. Avoid them if you want to appear IC. They are easily replaced by synonyms. If you combine these with words that have an obvious trolling effect, you risk getting locked...