Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Victoria Valadeus on 31 Jul 2011, 18:26
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Minimum Crew is the bare minimum number of personnel required to operate the vessel with only basic functions (i.e., assuming no modules fitted).
(http://i.imgur.com/2Iesq.png)
Amarr: Mid-range
Caldari: Mid- to upper-range
Gallente: Lower-range
Minmatar: Upper-range
Needed to get that out of my system.
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Yeah. For people who've RPed players who have been happy to lose frigates because of the lack of deaths, though, from years before this information was released, it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to assume that those 1-3 people can be covered with drones or whatever. The higher complexity of, say, a cruiser forbids it, but when it's the choice between a slight handwave and a good many older RPers retconning much of their characters?
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I can hand wave 1 person pretty easily with no heartache.
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At least there won't be anyone who can say 'Frigates don't have crew and urdoinitrong if your frigates have'em.' anymore.
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... Yeah. Frigates have a small enough crew complement that I'd think it would be acceptably handwaveable for a well-trained capsuleer (like, specced into frigs and/or high-SP, for example) could handle smaller frigates without crew.
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I think it depends on the frigate. I've previously played that something like the rifter has no non-pod-pilot crew, and something like the cheetah (or other electronics platform or scanning ship) has half a dozen electronics specialists etc.
This isn't really a change for me.
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I think it depends on the frigate. I've previously played that something like the rifter has no non-pod-pilot crew, and something like the cheetah (or other electronics platform or scanning ship) has half a dozen electronics specialists etc.
This isn't really a change for me.
This. It was explicit said long before Tony-G came along that the Rifter has no crew besides the Capsuleer. It was in the original artwork. If anyone is reconning previous established lore, it's Tony Gonzales... not us.
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Frigates are crew in the grand galactic spaceracer!
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See, it's just CCP catalyzing conflict... ;)
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This topic is silly.
Really.
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The survivor rate is kinda cool. Haven't seen that before.
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I love when PF rears its ugleh head and people hand wave it away.
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I see nothing that says the Capsuleer is not including in the crew listed. This makes it very possible that the crew of 1 is the capsuleer.
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I see nothing that says the Capsuleer is not including in the crew listed. This makes it very possible that the crew of 1 is the capsuleer.
Actually if you take a look at the Shuttle row you'll see the "with capsuleer" section has a zero in it, making it clear that the capsuleer is not included in the crew section.
Hoo hoo.
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Very neat, I like these numbers. Also makes it clear that stuff like modules, i.e. a gun battery, require dedicated gunnery crews, etc.
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Oh well overlooked that whoops.
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It's funny, though. when I first started playing EVE and RPing it, I wanted my frigates to have a crew too, but was disappointed when I was told that frigates do not have a crew.
A year later, I've grown used to that, and now I am told precisely what I've hoped for in the beginning. Now I don't like that idea, and I want my lack of crew back.
CCP just can't win for losing! :P
I'll get used to this too, I suppose.
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According to "The Burning Life" novel, crews on capsuleer vessels are only responsible for cleaning, maintenance and other similar tasks. There's no indication that crew operates any of the ship's essential systems, this is ironically opposite of some of the Chronicles, namely All These Lives Are Fit to Ruin (http://www.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=20-04-09)
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I really wish they had included a "Minimum crew required for a fully operational (i.e., fully fitted out) ship" - as opposed to the "minumum crew for an unfitted ship" and "maximum people you can stuff onboard, with passengers and all" they have now. Seems to be a giant, obvious hole missing.
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They have that, really. That's the difference between "minimum crew" and "maximum capacity", with room for folks to sort of personalize things.
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I doubt a fully fitted frigate could operate with just one capsuleer.
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Ah, I remember arguing in local with a victim that the loss of my Succubus for his Vexor was worthwhile because I had not lost any crew; he did. We went back and forth over the nature of my Succubus a bit before we left to keep on going.
It's nice to know frigates have a crew of some kind, but ultimately I feel a well equipped enough Capsuleer can forgo such crew. Someone just getting into a Punisher probably needs them, but I'd be fine with veteran imperial flyers not having any.
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Robots
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No crew means substantially less effective ships.
This is convenient for me because I am terrible at EVE. ;)
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Specially trained Fedos instead of crew.
Or even better, ponies.
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CCP Public Library
Just when we think we understand it all, CCP changes something! From news items to chronicles, discuss all things PF here.
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CCP Public Library
Just when we think we understand it all, CCP changes something! From news items to chronicles, discuss all things PF here.
:lol: :psyccp:
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Drem from TBL piloted a Curor by himself. He wasn't a capsuleer.
v0v
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Your frigates have crew
Your protein delicacies have people. Your coffee has ice. Your robots have sentience.
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Very neat, I like these numbers. Also makes it clear that stuff like modules, i.e. a gun battery, require dedicated gunnery crews, etc.
I don't understand at all how/why a gun battery would need people operating it.
First, I find it VERY unlikely that humans could load 140 rounds of (very large) ammo into a gun in ten seconds. Secondly, it's fairly obvious that the guns are not manually aimed nor fired as the calculations to do so would be well beyond a person's ability (hell, even guns on current military ships are mostly aimed by computer).
Perhaps I could see a crewman injecting NRP into a gun, but for the most part it seems like it would be very inefficient to have humans doing most of the work.
Quite frankly, the whole thing reeks of simply 'a crew for the sake of a crew' as I can see absolutely no actual benefit in having a bunch of humans scuttling around your ship. Cleaning? Why? What needs to be cleaned (while in space) if there are no people there? Surely stations offer cleaning services. Same with general maintenance.
All that said, if they are going to say 'ships have a crew', they should give them a purpose. For instance, random gun jamming (that is offset by your gun skills) that would need to be repaired. The jam could be fixed faster if your maintenance crew is well skilled. Perhaps faster cap recharge time if you have a well skilled engineering team, better jam chances if you have a better electronics team and more fighter DPS if you have higher skilled fighter pilots.
Nothing game breaking, but something that makes crews make sense because right now they seem to be nothing more than the extras you see walking down the corridors in every Star Trek episode.
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I don't think you have ever had to operate any large machinery - or artillery guns for that matter.
You will always need to have at least 1 loader to make sure stuff doesn't break down, ammo doesn't get stuck somehow - especially if you are to operate reliably under battlefield conditions.
And this is why, personally, I think the whole "my crew is drones" thing doesn't work. There are just too many tasks, even on a wet navy ship, that require quite a bit of improvisation, something drones with the AI limiations of CONCORD can simply not manage to emulate.
To illustrate this argument with an example:
Your ship gets hit in the "hull breach sealant nano thingmayum tank" and all of a sudden the drones who are programmed to get some "hull breach sealant nano thingmayum" can't get any - and are in turn left sitting in front of a broken piece of hull.
A human on the other hand could try to just yam/plaster something that's at hand over the hole, even if its the lid of a crate of Starsi "The drink for Patriots!" TM.
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I think folk need to remember that all capsule-fitted vessels are on-par with each other in terms of technology. All of them are controlled by a Jovian piece of tech, after all.
It's the non-capsule vessels (NPCs being the majority of EVE after all), that these differences would be the greatest.
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And this is why, personally, I think the whole "my crew is drones" thing doesn't work.
Human workforce is cheaper after a certain point. Same with ground-combat-drones. Having the technology to build efficient AI controlled fighting drones is one thing, deploying them economically another. I'd say the reason why the federation is big into drones comes from both their history (to counter fighters in the war) and even more so from the fact that they have the funds for it. Loosing human life may be more of a PR desaster on the home-front than it would be for the other cultures, who see giving your life for god, country, the tribe, the cause through more idealized goggles.
To throw some analogies from fiction around, the capsuleer takes up the role of the captain and all of the high-ranking officers, the bridge crew from the ST universe, basically. Everything that just needs to get done to get these results is in the hand of regular crewmen.
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The "issue" here really just focuses on frigates. Can, say, a Rifter operate equally well without the *one* crew member? I'm much more confident that little droids can run around with duct tape and welding torches for that little ship than for larger ships where much more can go wrong and we don't expect them to shake and rattle as we undock.
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Small is relative. We're talking about a ship in the dimensions of big modern widebody-aircraft. While technology is far more advanced, complexity has gone through the roof as well. Add on bonus: It's designed to get shot at.
I wouldn't rule that out so easily, and the one person for the capsuleer ship is "minimum required crew". I'm not sure what was said at the presentation, but I think it covers the basic functions like an unfitted ship.
I'd still say that human crewmen would be far more flexible than even the most advanced automatons, since they're geared and equipped to excel at a specific task. Even with complex reasoning skills you don't want to have "sentient" machines on board. Also one could think about remote controlling machines to do the work more effectively, similar to the pilots of fighters instead of the usage of even bigger drones for carriers.
But yeah, who knows what the future could or could not bring. ;)
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Also one could think about remote controlling machines to do the work more effectively, similar to the pilots of fighters instead of the usage of even bigger drones for carriers.
This is actually something I've thought about on occasion, and if I remember right it's my go-to explanation for things like hacking and salvaging which my character has no particular talent or training for. Given the realities of instantaneous telecommunication with fluid routers, it'd be quite possible to execute many functions remotely, using experts at a base station to perform tasks in a dangerous environment without risking losing their skills and having to hire new ones. (Or for the ones who get space motion sickness easily.)
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The "issue" here really just focuses on frigates. Can, say, a Rifter operate equally well without the *one* crew member? I'm much more confident that little droids can run around with duct tape and welding torches for that little ship than for larger ships where much more can go wrong and we don't expect them to shake and rattle as we undock.
I would say it is one thing to send nanomachines to rep your armor or your hull, and another thing to monitor and fix all the delicate systems that have to be fixed in a difficult moment. Maybe you need some human assistance too when you need to collect stuff and bring it into the cargohold. A tractor beam and automated systems will do most of the work, but still.
Mhh, ok we have nanite paste for broken delicate modules... :/
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(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images_icons/iconID_3278_grey.jpg)(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images_icons/iconID_192_grey.jpg)(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images_icons/iconID_1349_grey.jpg)(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images_icons/iconID_182_grey.jpg)(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images_icons/iconID_1302_grey.jpg)(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images_icons/iconID_1139_grey.jpg)
These are EM weapons. These are why drone crews on warships is a bad idea.
Sure, you have shield systems and ablative energized armour designed to keep radiation out, but what happens once your shields are down and your armour is being ripped to little tiny pieces by nuclear warheads, crippling the electronics of your ship? If you're relying entirely on a drone maintenance force you're going to have fried husks cluttering the corridors and maintenance ducts, where a human crew could work perfectly fine and just slap up some emergency field emitters.
(http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images_icons/iconID_77_grey.jpg)
This would be especially true on combat frigates - narrow margin craft that can expect to operate in structure more often than not if they find good fights.
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These are EM weapons. These are why drone crews on warships is a bad idea.
:cube:
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Mhh, ok we have nanite paste for broken delicate modules... :/
Someone's gotta be there with a squeeze tube and a spatula to get the paste in the right places.
On a more serious note, I think we have physical crew for the same reason we pilot our ships rather than just having all of our fleets run by massive computer programs. Human beings think. They are creative. They prioritize. They adapt, think on their feet, etc. For menial, predictable tasks, a drone is great. Anything which will require improvisation, problem solving, jury rigging, or prayer1, you want a human. There are few things less predictable than frigate combat, therefor it's not a setting that drones will be particularly suited to.
1: I imagine Amarrian ships having a room where a couple of crewmen hang out and pray, "God, let our repper cycle before their guns do, God let our capacitor hold out..."
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AIs are not incapable of reasoning, and I imagine they'll be even more amazing in the distant future than they are now, making first baby steps. But you don't want that kind of sentience on your everyday machines, which makes humans better suited for the task.
@EM Weaponry: They, and other kinds of weaponry, are even better at mauling soft fleshy hulls. Crewmen using machinery, either remote controlled or autonomous, seems to be the most rational approach, since it covers most of the bases regarding possible interior stress on machinery and electronics.
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My frigate crews consist entirely of
3 20 40 battle fedos.
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AIs are not incapable of reasoning, and I imagine they'll be even more amazing in the distant future than they are now, making first baby steps. But you don't want that kind of sentience on your everyday machines, which makes humans better suited for the task.
AIs, yes, but I doubt people in New Eden use evolved AIs (at least on combat starships or weaponry), for very similar reasons than in mass effect : Geth = Rogue drones ?
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EM and EMP are different. EMP, the Electromagnetic PULSE, is what you're probably thinking of when you talk about disabling drones and electronics. It's a very specific kind of effect, and is the EM equivalent of an explosion shockwave. EM weapons can deal anything from cancer causing gamma radiation, to flesh searing microwave radiation, and all manner of in between and around. Take a look at any of the laser crystals. ALL of them are based somewhere on the Electromagnetic (EM) spectrum, but none of them constitute an EMP.
Similarly, all of them will probably make jelly out of crewmembers, but not all of them will have an effect on sensitive electronics beyond thermal damage.
I would wager though that the missiles and projectile shells DO deal in EMP, instead of directed EM radiation, so those would be a significant thread to electronics.
Just because you're using EM (read: Electromagnetic) weaponry doesn't mean it will disable electronics, and it certainly doesn't mean fleshy crews will go unaffected.
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EM and EMP are different. EMP, the Electromagnetic PULSE, is what you're probably thinking of when you talk about disabling drones and electronics. It's a very specific kind of effect, and is the EM equivalent of an explosion shockwave. EM weapons can deal anything from cancer causing gamma radiation, to flesh searing microwave radiation, and all manner of in between and around. Take a look at any of the laser crystals. ALL of them are based somewhere on the Electromagnetic (EM) spectrum, but none of them constitute an EMP.
Similarly, all of them will probably make jelly out of crewmembers, but not all of them will have an effect on sensitive electronics beyond thermal damage.
I would wager though that the missiles and projectile shells DO deal in EMP, instead of directed EM radiation, so those would be a significant thread to electronics.
Just because you're using EM (read: Electromagnetic) weaponry doesn't mean it will disable electronics, and it certainly doesn't mean fleshy crews will go unaffected.
All true. Lasers and hybrids probably wont interfere with your cellphone, and I never meant to suggest that a blue missile wouldn't hurt a fly, just that when you're in a battle with nuclear munitions, there will be unpredictable EMP bursts going on. The choice would be between having a useful but fleshy crew, or an automated maintenance system that could potentially be completely useless.
The human crew does probably have machinery and remote drones for fixing things, but the important thing is that if things go horribly wrong that same human crew can just buckle up their suits and get down there with some spanners and beat on things.
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Answer is: Both. For every job you need the necessary tools. Some may be remote controlled, some autonomous repair drones, some nanite based. Up for the crew to choose.
get down there with some spanners and beat on things.
Dispenser going up!
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I've always been under the impression that the function of a crew was for maintenance and not critically essential to the operation of the vessel during combat operations. Given this, one could presume the level of automation on a capsule fitted vessel has ways of adapting to minor system malfunctions. A mission runner running missions all day has, in my opinion, no reason to carry a fully fitted crew 24/7 and probably leaves most of them at home. Running war patrols or work in one of the militias? Those are probably full of people.
One reason that I feel that robots don't make much sense as crew is that if a robot could do those tasks already they would have incorporated it into the automation design of the vessel, which implies that said maintenance requires more than just a good ol' scrub from a robot or a routine systems diagnostics check. I also feel that cost DOES factor into this, despite the fact that we do not have a very clear or precise understanding of the exact nature of how deep the level of automation runs through New Eden society. Also, if someone told you that your Thorax would cost an additional 20 million ISK to purchase with some kind of automated crew, I don't care how rich you are the idea of flying with crew suddenly seems a lot more feasible.
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I've always been under the impression that the function of a crew was for maintenance and not critically essential to the operation of the vessel during combat operations. Given this, one could presume the level of automation on a capsule fitted vessel has ways of adapting to minor system malfunctions. A mission runner running missions all day has, in my opinion, no reason to carry a fully fitted crew 24/7 and probably leaves most of them at home. Running war patrols or work in one of the militias? Those are probably full of people.
One reason that I feel that robots don't make much sense as crew is that if a robot could do those tasks already they would have incorporated it into the automation design of the vessel, which implies that said maintenance requires more than just a good ol' scrub from a robot or a routine systems diagnostics check. I also feel that cost DOES factor into this, despite the fact that we do not have a very clear or precise understanding of the exact nature of how deep the level of automation runs through New Eden society. Also, if someone told you that your Thorax would cost an additional 20 million ISK to purchase with some kind of automated crew, I don't care how rich you are the idea of flying with crew suddenly seems a lot more feasible.
This would reflect my own understanding and most of what I've read.
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As someone who has used combat drones quite often over the years, I can say I would not trust drones to serve as crewmembers in any capacity. From my experience, drones need constant supervision and instruction or they choose to do the most incredibly stupid thing possible.
Just as an example, with a field of 30 ships in one room of a mission, drones left to choose their own targets will invariably pick the target that triggers the next wave of ships. When that wave arrives (and with a field now somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 ships) they will once again auto-select the next trigger vessel.
It's like they want you to die. I personally have a theory that all drones are a half-step away from going rogue and are just looking for the opportunity. There is NO WAY that I would trust them with critical functions inside my ship.
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You shouldn't trust humans either, as they're all Jovian spies.
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You shouldn't trust humans either, as they're all Jovian spies.
Screw Jovian ones, it's the ones who work for Istvaan you should worry about.
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As someone who has used combat drones quite often over the years, I can say I would not trust drones to serve as crewmembers in any capacity. From my experience, drones need constant supervision and instruction or they choose to do the most incredibly stupid thing possible.
Just as an example, with a field of 30 ships in one room of a mission, drones left to choose their own targets will invariably pick the target that triggers the next wave of ships. When that wave arrives (and with a field now somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 ships) they will once again auto-select the next trigger vessel.
It's like they want you to die. I personally have a theory that all drones are a half-step away from going rogue and are just looking for the opportunity. There is NO WAY that I would trust them with critical functions inside my ship.
This, dear god. Afking in a drone boat is a great way to die unless you know that your tank can handle every spawn in the room at once. Granted, the dual rep Domi can do that fairly well in most cases, but for something like Blockade? Even the 1400 dps EM/Therm tank can't stand up to firepower of that magnitude.
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And everyone wonders why I avoid the use of drones...
I knew they were up to something!
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You shouldn't trust humans either, as they're all Jovian spies.
Screw Jovian ones, it's the ones who work for Istvaan you should worry about.
Also Jovian.
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The old days were the best, where upon issuing an attack order drones would sometimes in mid flight randomly redirect their aggro to one of your gang mates and proceed to murder them.
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The old days were the best, where upon issuing an attack order drones would sometimes in mid flight randomly redirect their aggro to one of your gang mates and proceed to murder them.
That sounds like the kind of hilarity that I'd like to see in fleet warfare.
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The old days were the best, where upon issuing an attack order drones would sometimes in mid flight randomly redirect their aggro to one of your gang mates and proceed to murder them.
That sounds like the kind of hilarity that I'd like to see in fleet warfare.
It was called smartbombing in an RRBS gang in highsec, until Kuvakei said "let there be light" in Algintal, and CONCORD/CCP went "nope, that's not happening twice". :(
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MY frigates have no crews.
And we all know, Ava frigates, best frigates!
They do, however, come fully equipped with sunshine dispensers and marshmallow launchers!
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MY frigates have no crews.
And we all know, Ava frigates, best frigates!
They do, however, come fully equipped with sunshine dispensers and marshmallow launchers!
Is that what we're calling lasers and webs these days? I'm glad you've finally realized that lasers are superior to stone age bullets, Ava...welcome to the dark side. :twisted:
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MY frigates have no crews.
And we all know, Ava frigates, best frigates!
They do, however, come fully equipped with sunshine dispensers and marshmallow launchers!
Is that what we're calling lasers and webs these days? I'm glad you've finally realized that lasers are superior to stone age bullets, Ava...welcome to the dark side. :twisted:
Funny. Very funny. Autocannons >>>> Lasers!
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Lazor myrm is awesome. AC myrm has nothing special.
Thus Lazors > ACs. My logic is irrefutable.
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Ships have crews.
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Ships have crews.
Like duh. I still insist in not taking a crew member in a Breacher that isn't going to last in space for more than two hours (or stay undocked for more than two hours). Any crew member I'm bringing is an engineer and he is only there to fix things that are on fire. However, since the moment the Breacher enters hull it likely isn't going to survive anyway (or if it survives the damage control will keep things working long enough to get docked) it's wasteful to bring along an engineer.
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The old days were the best, where upon issuing an attack order drones would sometimes in mid flight randomly redirect their aggro to one of your gang mates and proceed to murder them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnKk2ysyNrA
03:00
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Ships have crews.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2411396#post2411396
I prefer using crews. But CCP says that if someone wants to RP that their frigate is just the capsuleer then there is nothing wrong with them doing that.
Anything larger than a frigate though I'd have serious doubts on.
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Ships have crews.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2411396#post2411396
I prefer using crews. But CCP says that if someone wants to RP that their frigate is just the capsuleer then there is nothing wrong with them doing that.
Anything larger than a frigate though I'd have serious doubts on.
Totally. Elmund still has to bring crew members aboard a Talwar despite having automated most of its functions. With a Frigate, everything's pretty nicely packed and things are pretty simple. At the very most you need a Chewbacca or a R2-D2 sit in one spot to fix crap.
A destroyer is a different story since it is a more complicated piece of machinery. Weapons still have auto-loaders, there are still conveyor belts and robotic arms with RFID scanners and everything but now there's more space to cover and there's more moving parts. Just like all evil schemes and plots, the more complicated something is the more ways something is going to go wrong, especially in the middle of the shooting.
As per usual, Elmund isn't particularly pleased with that and is still working on a solution. For the time being he just has a crew safety policy and some changes in architecture and inclusion of manual-control drones with limited AI as all-purpose tools so as to maximise crew efficiency. If he can bring less crew and they can do their work in relative safety of reinforced bulkheads with automated beacons and life support, then he will do it, doesn't matter how much more he has to pay. He also frowns whenever someone tries to play the hero in his sights (being a former marine trainee means he had seen enough marines die for heroically stupid reasons to get mighty sick of it).
Also note that Elmund only does not bring crew aboard frigates that he doesn't expect to stay in space for more than two hours at a time. If he is going to be undocked for several days (expeditions and etc) he is going to bring crew. This is because of wear and tear. One or two hours won't cause significant wear and tear to make the ship inoperable. Several days and all that friction damage accumulates and all the lubricant dries up and things get snagged. He could use drones but drones are hardly dexterous enough to uncouple wires properly.
Also also wormholes. Someone has to apply RFID tags on all the Sleeper loot and machines can't do it because there's no RFID tags for them to identify squat. He will bring a bored grandmother (or several bored grandmothers) with him to wormholes to do the RFID tagging. He also bring bored grandmothers with him for salvage operations (because salvages do not tag themselves).
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Drem from TBL piloted a Curor by himself. He wasn't a capsuleer.
v0v
IKR! I always hope that when Anyanka ejects from her Cruor In space that it will warp off and fly to Aridia and shoot at a mining Raven and I'll get the killmail like WTF?
While on the subject of crewless frigs. Lest not forget, capsuleer, Lord Victor Eliade in The Empyrean Age who single-mindedly controlled a Purifier to spy on the Blood Raiders and Falek Grange's wreck.
Also, if a Sansha loyalist is flying a Succubus with true slaves as the crew, can that be considered a crewless ship?
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Drem from TBL piloted a Curor by himself. He wasn't a capsuleer.
v0v
IKR! I always hope that when Anyanka ejects from her Cruor In space that it will warp off and fly to Aridia and shoot at a mining Raven and I'll get the killmail like WTF?
While on the subject of crewless frigs. Lest not forget, capsuleer, Lord Victor Eliade in The Empyrean Age who single-mindedly controlled a Purifier to spy on the Blood Raiders and Falek Grange's wreck.
Also, if a Sansha loyalist is flying a Succubus with true slaves as the crew, can that be considered a crewless ship?
How about that Gallentean deserter who ejected all his crew from his Myrmidon in Templar One? Yeah, sure, after which knows how long he spent limping into Mordu space his ship is in a very bad shape and he could barely aim his railguns at that Drake.
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Just in case people were wondering, he locked the other one and said to resurrect this one. So that's why I did. I don't actually have an interest in starting up the discussion again, was just bumping the proper area for it.
I already have my opinion on it and have had the discussion ten thousand times. If anyone ever says they fly any ship other than a frig or shuttle without a crew, I either pretend it was never said or my character now thinks you are delusional. Even frigs bother me greatly, but I let it slide without reacting to it internally.
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Disclaimer: Not trolling.
If we accept (for the moment) that ships have crews how do you RP the effects that combat manoeuvres and travel at velocities greater than light speed have on them? EVE lore, to my knowledge, doesn't address this specifically.
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Disclaimer: Not trolling.
If we accept (for the moment) that ships have crews how do you RP the effects that combat manoeuvres and travel at velocities greater than light speed have on them? EVE lore, to my knowledge, doesn't address this specifically.
It was pointed out that the crew who had gone through too many warps and jumps will end up with a condition called cynosis, a psychological disorder. As for how they survive the G-force, well, I don't recall reading anything about that.
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Combat grade inertial stabilization tech. I personally don't consider them in use on cargo vessels, or at least much weaker, so there crew is placed in what is for all intents and purposes "travel cocoons" when warping.
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Disclaimer: Not trolling.
If we accept (for the moment) that ships have crews how do you RP the effects that combat manoeuvres and travel at velocities greater than light speed have on them? EVE lore, to my knowledge, doesn't address this specifically.
It was pointed out that the crew who had gone through too many warps and jumps will end up with a condition called cynosis, a psychological disorder. As for how they survive the G-force, well, I don't recall reading anything about that.
I think there's a drug they have to take that will suppress the effects of Cynosis at least for a while.
As for inertia - yeah, some sort of massively complex inertial dampener system. Also, some things that our ships do ingame (particularly how they rotate at low speeds) would not be realistically possible; I did some napkin math once after seeing my Apocalypse dancing about and found that the crew at the front or rear could be experiencing up to 10,000 Gs.
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It is one of the many reasons people call it 'submarine physics' rather than space physics. EVE mechanics, in the moments they make sense at all (and often they don't, because it is a game meant to be enjoyed), largely act more like underwater settings than space.
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In terms of warp, there are physics involving a solid amount of handwavium explaining that (special reality bubble, that sort of thing). For non-warp, yes. They've harnessed 'gravitons' so futzing about with acceleration and inertia are apparently a thing. There have been suggestions that that or the warp tech could explain the 'viscous space' issue.
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Ships have crews.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2411396#post2411396
I prefer using crews. But CCP says that if someone wants to RP that their frigate is just the capsuleer then there is nothing wrong with them doing that.
Anything larger than a frigate though I'd have serious doubts on.
Ahh, this is good to know, since according to earlier guidelines I thought about it as a no-no.
Obligatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAt5JB96Cdk
However, I am still imagining crewless ship just like this ship from movie, basically, a flying hull, that can't fire guns and do other complex tasks of installed modules.
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Who hand-loads space guns anymore?
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And then you ask, why we do have so many rogue drones :lol:
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Ships have crews.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2411396#post2411396
I prefer using crews. But CCP says that if someone wants to RP that their frigate is just the capsuleer then there is nothing wrong with them doing that.
Anything larger than a frigate though I'd have serious doubts on.
Ahh, this is good to know, since according to earlier guidelines I thought about it as a no-no.
Obligatory: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAt5JB96Cdk
However, I am still imagining crewless ship just like this ship from movie, basically, a flying hull, that can't fire guns and do other complex tasks of installed modules.
Also
this: (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Frigates_%28lore%29)
In fact, many smaller frigates are designed to be flown by a solo capsuleer, with no crew support whatsoever. At most, a single assistant will aide in the event of emergencies.
and
this: (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5912.msg98137#msg98137)
"in the same respect the Rifter is light, fast and simple enough to be flown solely by a capsuleer when he's plugged in." - CCP Falcon, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3414696#post3414696
"Keep in mind those are rough guidelines, not hard and fast numbers. An Atron is a smaller frigate than, say, an Incursus and might need less crew to pilot capably. If you want to RP that the capsuleer is the only person inside a frigate, no one should reasonably say you are wrong." - CCP Eterne, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2411396#post2411396
So just because set numbers are given on the articles, that doesn't mean it's a hard and fast thing that absolutely must be adhered to without question. It's a big universe.
So it is a bit messy, especially with frig size vessels. Long story short: you can in some cases, in some you can not, but if you really want to you should be able to. :lol:
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And then you ask, why we do have so many rogue drones :lol:
Modern naval turrets are automated. There's still somebody pulling that trigger remotely.
In Eve Online, I expect automated turrets that are designed to fire much more exotic ammunition. The person that pulls the trigger is the capsuleer. He will also do most of the triangulating subconsciously, aided by shipboard targeting computers, to attempt making accurate shots. What did you think our gunnery skills are for?
Also no reason to use manual labour for our reactors. We already automated our nuclear reactors these days, and it is simple enough to be done with subroutines. What guy you have there is to make sure nothing leaks or breaks or anything.
Also the internet of all things and RFID scanners means cargo sorting should be automatic unless we are taking cargo that has no tags at all. That's where you need manual labour. (Exception will be ores. I expect barges and mining vessels to have high-tech spectroscope that would determine mineral compositions and identify the ores almost automatically).
Seriously, most of the human labour invested on a ship is the repair crew and for redundancy purposes.
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Agree with this.
But you definitely need someone to apply these extra ductape on loose armor plate, when you are happily swimming in the pod goo :lol:
And the more diverse and advanced modules you have on your ship, the more tight your fit is, more CPU and PG it consumes, more specialists you need, for example, to watch for power misuse, to clean CPU from some residual procedures. Just notice, how ships operate without CPU/PG do not dropping over time, as it should be. There is definitely someone who maintain them in the shape. And that someone isn't just a drone with program, but someone with human brain, to be able to identify and solve problems
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Agree with this.
But you definitely need someone to apply these extra ductape on loose armor plate, when you are happily swimming in the pod goo :lol:
And the more diverse and advanced modules you have on your ship, the more tight your fit is, more CPU and PG it consumes, more specialists you need, for example, to watch for power misuse, to clean CPU from some residual procedures. Just notice, how ships operate without CPU/PG do not dropping over time, as it should be. There is definitely someone who maintain them in the shape. And that someone isn't just a drone with program, but someone with human brain, to be able to identify and solve problems
I am sure there are programs that can identify power output and cpu usage discrepancies and automatically clear data caches and reroute power and shut down redundant processes. However, a human is needed to deal with more complicated issues that can't be solved with mere on/off switches. This is why Elmund is so hell bent in preserving his crew, the people who do all those complicated repairs are highly trained and experienced experts and who knows when he is going to run into another one of those?
If it were a frigate for one/two hours patrol/roam, he might get away with that since the systems aren't so complicated that issues crop up to the point of bogging down everything. However, he has no option but bring somebody for anything larger. As a result he gets significantly more prudent with larger ships.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with RPing a modified frigate to be crew-less. Especially the t2 or newer frigates that are capsuleer focused.
I don't think you can make that argument as well for say, a cruiser, but frigates have always been good for RP solo mobiles
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I have always thought that the ship's crews were an ill defined element in EVE.
I have argued on the 'Features and Suggestions' section in the EVE forums that ship's crew should be a feature within the game. There should be a separate cargo slot where you can stick crew and passengers, just as drone bays have their own slots. These crew might have an effect on your ship, providing bonuses in the same way that rigs have.
The responses I got were "I don't want another thing to micro manage."
Now with the latest patch, Industrialists are able to buy 'teams'. These teams are NPC experts who can make your ship building faster, cheaper and so on.
Could something similar be done with ship's crews? A pilot uses the same interface as the manufacturing 'teams', but can tweak their ship's performance by spending their ISK on better engineers and other crewmen?
I have heard that according to Burning Life, the crew on board are 'unessential', just there for cleaning and maintenance. However the EVE site says that the ships' crew includes more essential jobs such as Engineers and dockworkers to load/unload cargo. It makes sense that a better crew would make for better ship function.
Personally, I imagine that when I am doing my skill training I am training not just myself, but my crew as well. My skills in Engineering are not MY skills, but the skills of the Engineer in my crew. The skill points I have in gunnery are not MY gunnery skills, but the skills of the Gunner I have as part of my crew. This is a lot more believable to me than thinking I am the capsuleer with the 'omni' brain, who just carts around a bunch of janitors and mechanics through space.
I also believe that the higher prices of clones has nothing to do with my clone body being more 'omni' than my last body. The higher prices of clones reflects the fact that I am paying for the clones of my crew as well.
Why should clones increase in price as skill points increase? The clone of a low skilled pilot is not physically/ biologically different than the clone of a highly skilled pilot. It isn't any cheaper or more difficult to perform brain surgery on Forrest Gump than it would be on Albert Einstein.
I am not suggesting that we should be able to use ISK to directly buy more gunnery skill points in the form of a skilled gunner crewman, or that they should be swappable. Nor am I suggesting that when your ship gets demolished, a dozen escape pods emerge. What I am saying is that my own RP definition of my own ship's crew is useful in plugging up what I consider to be plot holes in the idea of capsuleers.
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I will add that I've always thought the addition of crews could open up an entirely new and valuable option for PvEers to fit into the New Eden dynamic: Crew Training. Literally, taking crews out on missions or stuff, training them up, auctioning off their services to whomever, buying a new set and starting over.
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A lot of the Burning Life stuff is taken horribly out of context. In nobody's mind could that frigate be considered to have been flown at full capacity or even remotely successfully.
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https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Assault_Frigates_(lore)#Crews
This is what I have found on assault frigate crews.
Assault Frigates unsurprisingly require less crew than that of their less advanced counterparts. Anywhere from two to five crew members are required on the typical capsule fitted variant.
And, taking into account earlier discussion that frigates can actually be used without crew, I can interpret it this way:
Assault frigates are mostly fitted for intense combat, there are rare cases of AF with very bad fitting, and most of them are suitable for capsuleer vs capsuleer action. While majority of frigates in eve... You can imagine, I don't think I need to explain this.
As a summary, I can suggest this:
* Top edge PvP frigates - have almost maximum crew
* Top edge assault frigates - have less crew than PvP frigates, but still many
* Loosely fitted assault frigates or empty hulls - have less crew than PvP assault frigates, but more than one
* Generic frigates (PvE, mining, hauling, plexing, scanning, maybe even PvP-ing, but without any success), empty hulls or very loosely fitted - this class of vessels can be operated without crew at all
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I also want to point out that Cross-capsule variant (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cross-capsule_variant) ships do in fact exist in prime fiction. Which would allow capsuleers to also be a part of the crew. While it wouldn't be the best idea, it is possible and the capsuleer would generally remain safe even as the ship is destroyed as they have a guaranteed escape pod.
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I also want to point out that Cross-capsule variant (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cross-capsule_variant) ships do in fact exist in prime fiction. Which would allow capsuleers to also be a part of the crew. While it wouldn't be the best idea, it is possible and the capsuleer would generally remain safe even as the ship is destroyed as they have a guaranteed escape pod.
Yup. I fully support this usage in RP. Even on frigates, it's possible if you sacrifice a bit of space.
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I've been thinking (and dreaming - nerd alert) about this thread. I think part of what irks me the most is the lack of IC elements people use with their crew. People either don't care, it is what it is - or they have their character be utterly paranoid and existentially tormented at every turn because of their crew. I have seen little balancing of the perspective.
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Let's change that, Cuci!
Post stuff about your ships crew. Go pvp. Post something about survivors. What else can we do?
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Let's change that, Cuci!
Post stuff about your ships crew. Go pvp. Post something about survivors. What else can we do?
Oh, yes. I'm certainly not saying 'wai don't you all do dis' and then not do it myself. I'm doing some writing this week on Cuci.
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I think it's just your lack of exposure to it. I've long made use of NPCs including my crew, especially my crew.
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I think it's just your lack of exposure to it. I've long made use of NPCs including my crew, especially my crew.
Yep, there is a very good chance that I just not have RP'd with the people that do it. I usually see 'that's life,' 'OH MY GAWD MY CREW *DRUGZDRUGZDRUGZ*' or 'crew? you mean my slaves? there's a couple hot ones...'
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I've never been exposed to ship crew. Flying anything larger than a frigate, I think most people would have a hard time playing with a crew. I'm not even sure I could do that at the moment. I'm still working on Anyanka's frig crew and so far it is something I'm still not one-hundred percent on. Add to that, they will most likely die after only a few engagements.
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I also want to point out that Cross-capsule variant (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cross-capsule_variant) ships do in fact exist in prime fiction. Which would allow capsuleers to also be a part of the crew. While it wouldn't be the best idea, it is possible and the capsuleer would generally remain safe even as the ship is destroyed as they have a guaranteed escape pod.
Yup. I fully support this usage in RP. Even on frigates, it's possible if you sacrifice a bit of space.
I won't be doing this in a frigate, but for a wormhole-based strat cruiser? Yes, why not? Strategic cruisers are probably also outfitted with laboratories and such for wormhole ops, and are probably expected to stay in space without docking for weeks, if not months. Cross-capsule systems will benefit the capsuleer as he would be expected to do more than just flying a ship in this kind of situation.
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Silver has a fairly extensively developed crew, at least the upper ranks. Luckily I never undock, so they've had time to develop - and in the case of his XO she eventually became a podder herself.
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Ari doesn't talk about her crews cause her employees are not a point of mental contention. The higher ranking officers are Alpha clone Empyreans, as for the rest, her hiring practices are her own.
And she has had issues with crew before; some people know about it.
As an aside, she did actually get that ship and its crew back, surprisingly unharmed and unmolested. ;)
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Actually maybe Silver is just being Evil. His highest-ranking crew are assigned to ships he never undocks and super well paid. Perhaps it's that way to motivate the lower ranking crew to take more dangerous jobs in hopes they will get that cushy gig at some point. :yar:
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Elmund's frigates are so heavily mechanized and automated (algorithms written by one of his support staff. Yes, he is Gallentean and he annoys Elmund once in a while with pop culture references he doesn't understand) that it is only Matari on the surface layer. Walk inside and you would think you were inside a rogue drone.
His destroyers aren't any better, but there are crew quarters, and yes, he does have crew in there, though their numbers are at the barest minimum. All engineers and technicians, but also trained to operate drones. For these guys he has implemented safety protocols that THEY MUST ABSOLUTELY FOLLOW (such as staying in the most structurally sound parts of the ship during combat and use drones to repair remotely and only come out after the fighting stops. There are triple redundancy systems in place so they shouldn't be out and about when the shells fly). Anyone who tries to play the hero will, if they survive, be fired to discourage daredevilry.
He hasn't flown cruisers or worked on cruisers extensively enough yet.
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Actually maybe Silver is just being Evil. His highest-ranking crew are assigned to ships he never undocks and super well paid. Perhaps it's that way to motivate the lower ranking crew to take more dangerous jobs in hopes they will get that cushy gig at some point. :yar:
Ari would say he's being average; Jared's ship is chillin' casually in safe safe Empire in 'drydock' ... while she lives in VFK ... 8)
Despite ones revenue.. you dont subject a person to medical cloning with the lackidasical thought of "Bah they'll be fine waking up endlessly with amnesia for weeks at a time, see the calenar, know they died, and then need psych care.." :D
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Mine don't.
The end.
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My frigates have extra crew. Your character should feel bad when you blow them up.
Donations for the families are accepted
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With the time spent in Gallente space, and the fact she avoids capsuleer combat like the plague, most of her frigates would be crewed by drones just to keep things ticking over. Most battleships and cruisers die slow lingering deaths so It's fair to assume the crew escapes as hull damage progresses.
Perhaps people who have demonstrated a caring side towards baseliners could start evemailing people who blow up their ships asking if they wish to contribute towards their widows fund?
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There are a lot of uses for crew. Maintenance, analysis of data, taking care of passengers, guards, liaison officers, cargo haulers, I personally favor having a translator slave around.
However, when going into short missions in which I usually dock within the space of an hour, I don't need all these extra hands. I certainly don't need them to start interfering with manually loading ammo in the space of a 30 second frigate fight. It doesn't make any sense to take them aboard, especially since I'm usually fighting until the ship is destroyed. The odds of crew being killed in action on such an op is extremely high. Why would non-essential personnel go on such a mission?
I have standing maintenance crews etc. on my regular bases. I hire temps on stations I don't regularly visit when I need to to unload cargo and perform maintenance. Analysis and communication is done remotely.
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There are a lot of uses for crew. Maintenance, analysis of data, taking care of passengers, guards, liaison officers, cargo haulers, I personally favor having a translator slave around.
However, when going into short missions in which I usually dock within the space of an hour, I don't need all these extra hands. I certainly don't need them to start interfering with manually loading ammo in the space of a 30 second frigate fight. It doesn't make any sense to take them aboard, especially since I'm usually fighting until the ship is destroyed. The odds of crew being killed in action on such an op is extremely high. Why would non-essential personnel go on such a mission?
I have standing maintenance crews etc. on my regular bases. I hire temps on stations I don't regularly visit when I need to to unload cargo and perform maintenance. Analysis and communication is done remotely.
That's kinda what my character has a small army of: support staffs. The guys who do the dock-side maintenance and cargo unloading/loading and calibrations.
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Yea all that sounds reasonable. On long range/intensive missions yea you're gonna bring the whole team to do the grunt work while you take care of command, but for a quick jaunt to the nearby asteroid belt with maybe a small pirate/scavenger population that your guns can blast away without much of a sweat you don't really need Billy The Loader to hang out with his thumb up his ass watching the ore flow, or if you're going on a blitz on a compound or whatever there's no reason Jimmy the Electrician needs to be at risk when your main strategy will be 'I'm gonna wreck it'.
Drones are advanced enough in this universe to handle the grunt work on the fast 'I'm getting in my gunboat frigate and I'm gonna see if I can't blow that jerk up before he blows me up', and as said before a battleship or the like doesn't just completely blow up in a second unless something huge went bad for it, there are tons of reasonable ways to have crew without the guilt of every rat trip involving letters to sobbing widows.
I like the idea of crews in our ships, or involved in them at least. Crews are fun to write about (for me at least) and they're a good device to keep the whole 'death means nothing I HAVE CLONES AND A POD I AM UNTO A GOD' deal more down to earth. It's hard to be a cackling wannabe god when Private Biff is on the drone controls and he'd super rather not get blown to crap because some dude at a bar called your jacket lame.
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Yea all that sounds reasonable. On long range/intensive missions yea you're gonna bring the whole team to do the grunt work while you take care of command, but for a quick jaunt to the nearby asteroid belt with maybe a small pirate/scavenger population that your guns can blast away without much of a sweat you don't really need Billy The Loader to hang out with his thumb up his ass watching the ore flow, or if you're going on a blitz on a compound or whatever there's no reason Jimmy the Electrician needs to be at risk when your main strategy will be 'I'm gonna wreck it'.
Drones are advanced enough in this universe to handle the grunt work on the fast 'I'm getting in my gunboat frigate and I'm gonna see if I can't blow that jerk up before he blows me up', and as said before a battleship or the like doesn't just completely blow up in a second unless something huge went bad for it, there are tons of reasonable ways to have crew without the guilt of every rat trip involving letters to sobbing widows.
I like the idea of crews in our ships, or involved in them at least. Crews are fun to write about (for me at least) and they're a good device to keep the whole 'death means nothing I HAVE CLONES AND A POD I AM UNTO A GOD' deal more down to earth. It's hard to be a cackling wannabe god when Private Biff is on the drone controls and he'd super rather not get blown to crap because some dude at a bar called your jacket lame.
This unfortunately has always been one of the weakest parts of the game for me, CCP never makes you feel like your ship is a big ship full of people doing things. I want to see cargo and maintenance loading and unloading when I dock, I want to see little drones doing minor repairs, I want to see a steady stream of ants up and down loading ramps :(
There have been lots of awesome suggestions for crews as a module related item that can boost or hinder performance, and even gain experience.
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This unfortunately has always been one of the weakest parts of the game for me, CCP never makes you feel like your ship is a big ship full of people doing things. I want to see cargo and maintenance loading and unloading when I dock, I want to see little drones doing minor repairs, I want to see a steady stream of ants up and down loading ramps :(
[/quote]
I want this so much
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This unfortunately has always been one of the weakest parts of the game for me, CCP never makes you feel like your ship is a big ship full of people doing things. I want to see cargo and maintenance loading and unloading when I dock, I want to see little drones doing minor repairs, I want to see a steady stream of ants up and down loading ramps :(
I want this so much
[/quote]
Also an optional 'write letter of condolences' button.
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Also an optional 'write letter of condolences' button.
I was Lead Designer/Researcher on a Flight Sim by Microprose that generated letters of condolence for you to sign for all your dead crew. :D
(I actually thought it gave your crew deaths some meaning)
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....and I thought I was morbid. :eek:
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This unfortunately has always been one of the weakest parts of the game for me, CCP never makes you feel like your ship is a big ship full of people doing things. I want to see cargo and maintenance loading and unloading when I dock, I want to see little drones doing minor repairs, I want to see a steady stream of ants up and down loading ramps :(
I want this so much
Also an optional 'write letter of condolences' button.
I was Lead Designer/Researcher on a Flight Sim by Microprose that generated letters of condolence for you to sign for all your dead crew. :D
(I actually thought it gave your crew deaths some meaning)
I just want you people to learn how to use and close quoteboxes. :P
MUH OCD.
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I was actually hoping after rigs came out that ccp would consider adding crew to the game. Sort of like implants for your ship.
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Make crew management FTL style for maximum keyboard breaking.
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Make crew management FTL style for maximum keyboard breaking.
PVP while managing crew? Are you some kind of micro god?
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To do that, you'd have to be able to pause like in FTL. No was thinking either ships could have fitting slots like rigs for things like gunnery officers, engineers, damage control teams. As a bonus they could be made by players and would give a use for all those passengers and slaves we find lying around.
Or they could be consumed with some sort of mechanic similar to overheating. Want to repair even faster? Throw someone out the airlock with a roll of duct tape.
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I would love for crews to actually provide meaningful choices like hiring by force tourists, or the damsel or whoever you pick up in space... For pirates it would offer a lot of rp material and more generally a way to materialize what happens to npc characters .
More generally the same way we use PI for goods, i would love to see the same thing adapted for human npc, be it dirty human trafficking (concretising what we alreeady do ingame anyway) or more civil training and even baseliner education... With options to free slaves ofc but also promoting those characters and crews....