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Author Topic: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism  (Read 8672 times)

Nicoletta Mithra

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Topic split from 'Where have all the slavers gone?':

Graelyn, then how do you explain the (recent?) trend toward Matari mysticism?
[...]

[...]
Also: It might have to do with the fact that Amarrian religion is, as a monotheism, quite close to the abrahamic religions? Maybe people have a problem with monotheism nowadays, but not so much with polytheistic/animistic paganism? It meight explain why Matari shamanism (I don't think mysticism fits there, that much) is en vogue.
[...]

[...]
And FWIW, Nico, while not all mystics are shamanistic, all shamanists are mystics. I won't do the Wikipedia thing here, but essentially shamans are supposed to be people who can bridge between the spirit world and "our" world, acting as go-betweens for everybody else. That's pretty mystical, and something that frustrates me about Minmatar RP. Which also sort of explains why Minmatar haven't gotten all "my Lord, my Lord, why have you forsaken us?" when they go through the Day of Darkness.

I'd beg to differ. True, Shamanism has this thing with the spirit world and the shaman as a go-in-between it and the worldly realm through altered states of consciousness, and this is similar to certain aspects if mysticism. But certainly Shamanism is not the same as mysticism, which has at it's heart the pursuit to attain communion, identity or conscious awareness of an ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God through direct experience, intuition, instinct or insight. So, while techniques might be similar, aims are quite different:  Shamanic travels to the spirit lands have a practical purpose (e.g. healing) and not the enlightenment of the shaman and his communion with the ultimate reality of the divine.

Also, mysticism is, typically, closely associated with a well developed, institutionalized religion that has a well developed theology in a society with a huge amount of labor division and/or technical know-how, which frees time, time that's necessary to pursue mystical rather than practical aims. (Examples are ample: Sufism and Islam, Rhineland mysticism or Hesychasm and Christianity, Zen and Buddhism, Kabbalah and Judaism...) That's usually conditions Shamanism doesn't fullfill.

So, I'd venture the claim that most mystics are practitioners of a non-shamanic religion and shamans are only rarely mystics, though one doesn't preclude the other.

Just to end the debate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mysticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism

[...] I don't see how giving wikipedia links ends a debate: I read both of them and neither of the articles states explicitly how one relates to the other. I think the articles support my view - others might disagree. Also, wikipedia isn't the holy grail of knowledge. [...]

I took the liberty to excise what imho doesn't pertain to the topic at hand here.
« Last Edit: 02 Jul 2012, 04:20 by Nicoletta Mithra »
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #1 on: 02 Jul 2012, 20:05 »

A. Is there a matter for discussion here?

B. It sounds as though there are assumptions and expectations about Minmatar shamanism that I'm essentially unaware of. Could someone maybe make a summary for those of us who play this stuff fairly canonically, so we can catch up with what others have been doing? I might still say "Nah, IC I'd roll my eyes at that and think you were off being all New Age and making up a framework that suits your preferences... which is a normal thing for people to do, so I'll assume, IC, that that's what you're doing".
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Casiella

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #2 on: 02 Jul 2012, 21:14 »

Mata, can you describe what you mean by "play this stuff fairly canonically"? I'd guess that that could mean different things to different people.
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #3 on: 03 Jul 2012, 00:23 »

Canon uses "mystics" and "shamans" essentially interchangeably:
Mystics

The Vherokior have always seemed a bit odd to the other Minmatar tribes - doubly so in regard to those Vherokior with mystical inclinations. Vherokior shamans are both revered and feared by the Minmatar. They possess insights that can be of great help to people, but these same insights can also grant them great powers.

The Vherokior male is small in stock, but nimble and quick footed. They possess an easy charm and are quite affable. While the tribal tattoo tradition is something shared by all Minmatar, the Vherokior male shamans have taken it to new heights. The mystical nature of the Voluval ritual, where the inner soul and karma of the person is revealed through a body tattoo, is exclusively handled by Vherokior shamans and the secrets of the rituals are only known to them.

The Voluval was developed by Vherokior mystics during their time wandering the Greater Sobaki Desert. [2] When the Vherokior emerged from the desert around five thousand years ago and began traveling in small caravans amongst the other tribes, the Voluval spread with them. Tattoos were already such an important part of Tribal life that the practice caught on quickly. Population pressures on Matar soon saw the introduction of banishment with certain, rare, bad marks.

During the Amarr rule of the Minmatar, all cultural tattoos were banned, and the secrets of the Voluval were thought lost. When the Amarr yoke had been finally been thrown off, tattoos were one of the first things to be returned to their place of cultural importance. Even before the formation of the Republic, Vherokior mystics announced that they had held on to the knowledge of the Voluval all through their long subjugation. [1] In a culture striving to re-establish its identity and tribal roots, the resurrected ritual achieved an even greater importance.

Now, in a curious parallel to how the ritual initially spread, Vherokior mystics make regular trips to both the Federation and the Great Wildlands, in an effort to include the Gallente-Minmatar and the Thukker in the practice. In the Republic, many returning Starkmanir and Nefantar have also shown an inclination to fit in by undergoing the ritual, even those that hold on to their Amarr faith. While normally undergone in adolescence, exceptions are being made regularly as the Republic opens its arms to its returning people.

Should I keep going? The EVElopedia article on the Voluval summarises most of what we know about shamans. Additional snippets suggest that shamans are haruspices ("Psychomancy, it was called. They could tell things from machine sounds, working them like the entrails of a shaman." Chronicle: Rust Creeps) and that they engage in "meditation" ("Before we make our attempt at capturing Logut Akell, the Vherokior shsaman [sic, from reference] I was referring to earlier, we need to find him. He is currently meditating somewhere in Eram, but I haven't been able to track him down. If you didn't know, this meditation process of the Vherokior shamans can take months or even years, and frankly I'd rather not wait that long." Mission briefing: Shaman Secrets 3/5).
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #4 on: 03 Jul 2012, 09:09 »

What puzzles me is the reference to Karma there.

Does it mean that Minmatar believe in reincarnation?

Karmic Wheel?

If so, would not those beliefs be pretty much in step with the Amarrian religions weight of Sin, which would insinuate that the Minmatar religion could have been integrated into the Amarrian one more easily because of its similarities.
Of course this is a separate issue, but still...
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Malcolm Khross

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #5 on: 03 Jul 2012, 10:50 »

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't "Karma" be more in line with Intaki Ida?

Matari Shamanism seems to be more closely related to Native American faiths with animistic spirits of all living things and a spiritual realm that can be breached by Shamans/Mystics. It doesn't seem to really mesh well with the idea of Karma and Dharma from Hinduism.
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BloodBird

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #6 on: 03 Jul 2012, 10:56 »

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't "Karma" be more in line with Intaki Ida?

In my understanding, this is correct; Karma is very much an Intaki 'thing' with regards to religion/faiths - my own toon is flavored slightly based on the consept. It's a large theme, though while it is, nothing states that no Matari faith or shamanic belief would incorporate it. It just seems less likely to me, really.

Not a very 'matari-like' idea, if you follow.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #7 on: 03 Jul 2012, 11:01 »

The tidbits posted by Matariki kind of insinuate that the Minmatari religion is just a hodgepodge of different things probably put together by CCP with the guideline of 'put all kinds if spiritual stuffs there cuz they're like these spiritual people'.

Meaning that there is no canon faith in the PF for the Minmatar, just examples of traditions and a general hand waving towards New Age hippie spiritualism.

The reincarnation stuffs are Real in New Eden when it comes to Reborn, but as I understand it is more of a technique than a Karmic thing.

Reincarnation is a lifestyle choice instead of a religion where you have faith in something intangible.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #8 on: 03 Jul 2012, 11:59 »

I think Karma means simply something like "fate" here. My humble opinion is, that CCP just threw in some New Age fluff words to make all this appear more karmic and mystical... So I concur with Lallara there.

The Matari seem, though, have a strong belief in their destiny and fate and that the Voluval reveals it.

It seems to me, that the Vherokior shamans are the one that are equated with being mystics, not Matari shamans in general. As the PF says in the flavour text about them from char creation (see above in Matariki's post).

Nothing that they do, though, seems to point to them as adherents to a mystical theology or philosophy, that is one that revolves around the experience of mystical union or direct communion with ultimate reality, divinity, spiritual truth, or God or something alike.

So, I've been doing some research in dictionaries. I've got found two different meaning for 'mystic', first and foremost the following one:

Quote from: Oxford Dictionaries (online)
mystic
 
Pronunciation:
 /ˈmɪstɪk/
noun
a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect:
 the poetry of the 16th-century Spanish mystic, St John of the Cross

This meaning - most often in fewer words - is also found in wiktionary, Cambridge Dictionaries Online and Irivng Hexham's Concise Dictionary of Religion.

Another one I've found is the following:

Quote from: yourdictionary
mystic

[...]

A mystic is someone who has mysterious or occultish powers. (noun)

An example of mystic is a clairvoyant.

Similarly found at www.wordsmyth.net and UrbanDictionary, though here the ability of clairvoyance seems to figure prominently: A mystic is something akin to a psychic, here.

In this quite wide meaning, the Vherokior shamans are probably mystics as they possess mysterious and occultish powers. It also fits the description of Matari shamans being 'psychomancers'. This is a very wide use of the word 'mystic' though, one that caters in my opinion more to above mentioned New Age fluff than to anything else.

This said, I maintain that Matari shamans aren't mystics in the sense of being practitioners of mysticism. I also maintain that one shouldn't call them mystics - especially if not referring specifically to the Vherokior shamans - for clarities sake. As for the Vherokior, it's in the PF so one can say little against it, but that they are New Agey fluff mystics, imho. ;P

Also, I think that the reborn thing with the Intaki isn't merely a life style choice. It also seems to be something religious.
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Casiella

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #9 on: 03 Jul 2012, 12:44 »

My original point, by the way, that led to the tangent (and pretend-yelling from Hatele) was pretty simple. The mysticism of the Matari, or whatever term you prefer because I'm being really generic here, is not interesting to me. I think it is a valid part of PF and, as long as you don't play a character who actually has wizard properties and such, I can't possibly have a legitimate complaint in that respect.

It's just not fun for me because I like the gritty hard-edged far-future science fiction stuff in EVE. This is precisely why I've moved away from Matari RP, because as much as I like the "rustpunk" aesthetic, the Voluval is a great example of what I personally don't like: completely valid RP that meets canonical PF but not my personal taste.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #10 on: 03 Jul 2012, 13:11 »

That is the strange thing...

There is nothing supernatural in New Eden (or the real world).

Why would there be in the Republic?

With training and genetics in New Eden you can have preternatural capabilities for people, but never supernatural.

Kind of like the extremes of body control represented in sci-fi by the Bene Gesserit in Dune, which is based on body control exhibited by yogi in India.

I don't think the interesting thing here is discussing whether the Vherokior shamans are clairvoyant, the interesting part is the question on how they became extremely sagacious through the ages.

How did that fact affect the culture of the Minmatar before Day of Darkness?
Can anyone reach that same level of cultured intuition through training?
Is there a skill book about it?
Were they in on the Nefantar conspiracy on preserving the Starkmanir?
How about the preservation of the whole Minmatar culture by the same people?
Are they the willing tools of the Elders?
Have they always been?
Are they benign?
Is Voluval just a way of controlling the Minmatar population and assigning them to different castes by the whims of an elite?
Do old Holders possess similar skills?
« Last Edit: 03 Jul 2012, 13:12 by lallara zhuul »
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #11 on: 03 Jul 2012, 15:24 »

OOC, of course the Voluval is some kind of science, wrapped up in social ritual.

Process

The Voluval uses a special type of tattooing process, consisting of two injections. One is an injection of tyrosine, the amino acid precursor to melanin, and it is administered to the heart. The second injection, delivered to the ventral root near the base of the spinal nerve, is a formula known only to Vherokior mystics, and is a secret still closely guarded by them even today. [2]

A few decades ago, the Quafe company investigated the possibility of using a similar form of tattooing as part of an enhanced marketing strategy. The Quafe company sent a small team of scientists to the Greater Sobaki Desert to gather flora and fauna. They claimed great results using acetylcholine as a neurotransmitter, along with oxytocin, calcitonin, and vasoactive intestinal peptide hormones[3] extracted from Sobaki Water-Root. Unable to identify any further ingredients, nor willing to commit any more resources to the venture, the project was shut down. There is evidence to suggest the Amarr may have figured out the formula, but it is circumstantial at best. [4]

Vherokior mystics have since confirmed the inclusion of Sobaki Water-Root in the Voluval formula, saying it is simply one tooth of the key to unlock one's Voluval tattoo. They believe the formula of the second injection directs the subconscious to manipulate the melanin from the first injection into forming a permanent tattoo. It is for this reason Vherokior mystics insist proper mental preparation is a necessary part of the Voluval. [3]

I started writing up Mata's (downright cynical) personal take on what the Voluval really is, but that stuff will come out--or not--in the main storyline in time. (Spending her formative time in Re-Awakened made her very sensitive to anything that might spread either an infection or an inoculation.) The Voluval seems scientifically plausible-enough as what it appears to be: an output reading of your genetic and other biochemical proclivities. Think of it as the personality equivalent of a pregnancy stick test, with more than just plus and minus outputs available.

And a long quotation from a recent chronicle touching on the Minmatar spiritual practice of dreamwalking, as carried over into the VR world of pod pilots:

The dreamwalker resented the intrusion of these others in the Dream. They had come with the Tornado and he resented the swift-sailing wing of a ship for it. Perhaps unreasonably. But he resented the others. They did not even feel the sting of dreamshock when they failed. How could they possibly try their utmost without it? Some of the dreamwalkers said these others felt something akin to it. Something of their own making. He doubted it. They were not dreamwalkers even if they walked in the Dream.

Yet they did walk in the Dream and they could be the cause of pain if he did not take care. His charge today was a Zealot. Like the others in the Slaver’s Fang dreamclan, he specialized in the ships and weapons of the Great Enemy. In the Dream, he knew nothing else but his duty to fly the golden ships to the best of his ability. That and the dreamshock should he fail in that duty. His fellows were in a variety of Amarr ships, in close assault formation. Some Crusaders, a few Retributions and several  Zealots. Off in the distance, the others. In their Tornados. They seemed to sail lazily through space, like birds from a dimly remembered other time.

The Shamans were speaking. The pattern for the battle was laid out in their chanting and it signalled a charge on the foe. The Crusaders seemed to skip ahead, angling to avoid the direct line of approach. The rest of the ships followed, taking wider angles than their smaller and much faster brothers.  The enemy were approaching, which meant they were using autocannons, but they would try to turn this into a tail-chase. The Crusaders reported making scramble on several targets, shutting down their microwarpdrives. Several reported being counter-scrambled. Interesting. A few also reported webbing and tracking-disruption. The dreamwalker mentally smiled. Foolishness. The mixed electronic warfare across the enemy fleet was a good idea in principle, but to reveal the hand by using it all on the Crusaders indicated panic. The others would not win this fight.

********
[snip]
********

Heavy assaults pounding his back and belly, immune system failing, nanobots going inert for lack of sugar, what was that light?

Adrenaline rush as he spat light from his fingers, swatting stinging bugs, something burning in his vision, heart pumping as energy is injected.

Victory ululating in his mind, the Dream unfolding, birds falling out of the sky, his legs burning from the microwarpdrive.

Gods-damn that moron to the hells and back, pressure of light and electromagnetism on his skin, the egg sitting there, comrades taking a vengeance for him with spears of plasma.
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Casiella

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #12 on: 03 Jul 2012, 15:50 »

When I read that Dreamwalker bit a few months (?) ago, that really annoyed me (in the sense of what I wrote above) and was part of what clinched it for me, telling me I needed to move on and find something new.
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and it's relation to Mysticism
« Reply #13 on: 03 Jul 2012, 16:04 »

When I read that Dreamwalker bit a few months (?) ago, that really annoyed me (in the sense of what I wrote above) and was part of what clinched it for me, telling me I needed to move on and find something new.

I totally understand that not everything does it for everyone, but I'm curious that that was the clincher for you. To me this is an approach to fleet comms, combined with the VR body-ship interface that I've always assumed. What didn't work for you?
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Shamanism (of the Matari) and its relation to Mysticism
« Reply #14 on: 03 Jul 2012, 19:50 »

Having done some PF-quoting, here are some points about how I play Minmatar ritual and transcendence stuff. Usual warning about it being a big cluster, and the tribes and clans not necessarily doing things alike.

I think it's about social hacks and body hacks.

I think some of it is intentional--I can see Sebiestor, in particular, applying scientific method to their tinkering with ways to get the right experience--and a lot of it is people winging it based on things that have worked before.

I think there are huge differences in how much practitioners think is "real" and how much they think it's symbolic (although the experience is real). Those differences parallel... let's say "the theology preached in neighbourhood churches vs the theology taught in seminaries back when seminaries were allowed free thought".

To generalise, shamans IRL are typically schizotypal. They're the "half-crazy" people somewhere on the continuum to schizophrenia: they can function in the specific social niche of spirit-guide and mediator for the world of myth and story/sea of dreams/unconscious. I imagine EVE shamans are like this, too, with most of them having "being a shaman" as a necessary lifestyle determined by their personal wiring and demons and focused by clan recognition and training, rather than it being a chosen day job for any likely child.

That said, I do think there are probably shamans or people in shaman-like roles out there who fit more into the day-job model, some of them even being a lot like a blend of the contemporary psychiatrist/clinical psychologist/counsellor. There will be some tension about what constitutes a "proper" shaman. "Proper" half-crazy shamans will be brought in for important rituals, while you might see a tamer one for clan pastoral care. Maybe.

There will also be con-artists passing as shamans.

I think EVE shamans use and distribute pharmacological assistance as required to help achieve the appropriate state. I'm not sure that there's always a big distinction between shamans and local drug suppliers.

I think that for some clans there's a big focus on experiencing your altered states in the appropriate social setting, at the appropriate time. You might reach for those states using fasting, pain, drug-use, dancing into a trance, sex, etc. Despite the emphasis on doing things in a ritual context at the right place and time, some of these are way open to abuse, by insiders as well as by outlander "tourists".

I think there's a lot of use of metaphor and anthropomorphism in Matari religion. People keep the gods they need, and some of the gods they want. Groups and individuals might adopt new gods depending on experience: I definitely imagine people coming back from deployment with feelings one way or the other about their regimental gods. But gods can be small and specialised--like the one who requires rubber chickens to be placed in server rooms--as well as large.

In the wider sense--beyond just shamans and mysticism--I play Mata's sub-tribe's religion as being based around ancestors and erendati. Also rites of passage, roles, values and rituals.

Ancestors are, in one sense, your genetic forebears, and there are rites around death and the spirit journey, and elements of "What advice do you think Aunt Yana would give you in this situation?". In another sense, "ancestors", for Mata, refers to "the gene-wisdom": the things that humans have been selected and programmed for many millennia to do.

"Erendati" are, for Mata's sub-tribe, the spirits of things and essences, anthropomorphised as appropriate. There will be an erenda for "fire", "the void", "the river past the house", "that house", "breaking stalemated negotiations", etc. No, I don't have a pantheon: you bring these up as you find you need them.

I think most Matari religion has been made up since the Great Rebellion. Don't tell anyone, though.

I don't judge wider Matari spirituality as good or bad. In many ways it's primarily "useful": as social bonding, for rites of passage, as solace and structure for grieving, as guidance when making the decisions of life and community. It can, like most systems, be abused and abusive. It also helps provide roles and defaults for a people who bear a lot of scars and could do with some life scripts that are reasonably effective.

For me it's tied to a sense of yielding some level of control over your self and your body to your group--being willing to blur your boundaries for belonging, and being willing to sacrifice self for the survival of your kin-group--that I, IRL, consider scary-dangerous. (Just thought I'd throw that in there since I've been idly doing a bit of a post mortem lately about my roleplay with Mata. There are some elements of the way I play Matari religion that I find congenial, and others that are definitely not.)
« Last Edit: 03 Jul 2012, 20:02 by Matariki Rain »
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