Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Silver Night on 14 Jun 2013, 19:05
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I don't think I've seen a thread regarding the (apparent) in-process fall of Tibus Heth. With the latest news being that the CEP is officially disowning him, I have to say I'm essentially suffused with joy at the direction this seems to be heading - getting rid of the things that I found interfered with my ability to see the Caldari as a realistic society (and various other crimes against PF). I'll try to keep the list below of related articles as up to date as possible. I've intentionally left the ones that weren't more directly relevant (like Yanala's funeral) out, but feel free to discuss them also. :D
Breaking News: Yanala Forced into Teamaker Ceremony (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/breaking-news-yanala-forced-into-tea-maker-ceremony/)
Vigils for Yanala Turn Violent (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/vigils-for-yanala-turn-violent/)
Tibus Heth's Yanala Speech Cut Short By Riot (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heths-yanala-speech-cut-short-by-riot/)
Heth Does Not Attend CEP Meeting; Provist Leadership Vanishes (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/heth-does-not-attend-cep-meeting-provist-leadership-vanishes/)
Breaking News: Provists Seize Haatamo Station; Tibus Heth Leading (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/breaking-news-provists-seize-haatamo-station-tibus-heth-leading/)
Siege of Haatamo Continues; Provist Intentions Unclear (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/siege-of-haatomo-continues-provist-intentions-unclear/)
Siege of Haatamo Enters Day 2 (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/siege-of-haatomo-enters-day-2/)
Breaking News: Tibus Heth Denounced by CEP, to be Ousted as KK CEO (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/breaking-news-tibus-heth-denounced-by-cep-to-be-ousted-as-kk-ceo/)
From my perspective, this looks like a cleanup of the storyline mess that is Heth and the Provists. I like that it seems as though quite a bit of the Provist leadership is also with him (and so being relegated to terrorist status with him). This type of exit also leaves room for the Provists - which as a movement do make a certain amount of sense - to pop up as criminals/terrorists/troublemakers with some residual popular support in certain quarters, later on. There is always a place for an ultranationalist fringe - particularly among the population of 'patriot' corporations and the more traditionalist populations in other corporations (looking at you, Hyasyoda).
At the same time, I always found Heth the most problematic part of the whole TEA situation, at least for the Caldari (though other things, like the change to what 'liberal' meant in reference to corporations, come in close behind him). That he, personally, looks to be headed for an exit is helping restore my confidence in CCP's storyline folks. I'd love to see a return to a State where the corporations' internecine conflict was at a constant vicious simmer, and the only time they showed much unity was when an outsider needed slapping down. Not to mention a State where even when the decisions made might not be the best possible decisions, it is because of CEP infighting, rather than some random, ill-justified plot requirement.
As far as Heth's actual end, I would personally prefer something not particularly exciting. No blaze of glory. PErhaps an underling presenting the CEP with his head on a stick in return for a deal.
How do you think Heth's story will end (if it does end)? Where will the State go in a post-Heth world?
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I like the storyline. Probably more than the Death of the Ray of Matar or the Empress' current mental instability.
I'm hoping that a former Home Guard manages to make the shot he missed 5 years ago.
As someone who plays non-Caldari but enjoys watching them on the sidelines, my only regret was that there was no real PC-based conflict. It seems like 95% of the PCs from all factions wanted him removed or dead.
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I suspect some of that might be OOC as well. While Silver is Ishukone, and so probably wouldn't be a big Heth fan anyway, I must admit a great deal of my glee is OOC. :bear:
Edit: Actually, no, plenty of reason for even quite nationalist Caldari to strongly dislike him. Instead, I would say that the depth of happiness at his removal is perhaps in part OOC.
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From the way they're setting this up, with Heth and company cornered and their fangs essentially pulled, my guess is that Heth and company engage in ritual mass-suicide. This should nicely position Heth as a martyr in the minds of the Templis Dragonaurs and a tragic figure in the annals of Caldari history.
I greatly appreciate that CCP has apparently decided to do away with our proto-Space Hitler. While I thought that the notion of a Caldari fascist demagogue was actually pretty believable (they really do kind of walk the fine line re: fascism), this is a good "The Caldari are not the goddamn Helghast" moment.
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I greatly appreciate that CCP has apparently decided to do away with our proto-Space Hitler. While I thought that the notion of a Caldari fascist demagogue was actually pretty believable (they really do kind of walk the fine line re: fascism), this is a good "The Caldari are not the goddamn Helghast" moment.
I can see where you're coming from, but I always felt that the Caldari (for all the elements that are homogeneous) are pretty fractured as a society. That's one of the reasons the base idea didn't seem incredibly likely to me (leaving aside issues of execution of his rise).
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It seems CCP is systematically taking out the trash, though I would be slightly concerned about it happening *too* systematically.
But I'm overthinking it.
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While quick, all this stuff has contained a refreshing sprig of plausibility, to my eyes.
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As someone who plays non-Caldari but enjoys watching them on the sidelines, my only regret was that there was no real PC-based conflict. It seems like 95% of the PCs from all factions wanted him removed or dead.
Those who played characters even softly supporting Heth previously either were in organizations where that sentiment would have resulted in exile from the corp at the very least, possibly getting set red or did the quick math and recognized that public support of Heth at this point would result in a curb stomp.
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I greatly appreciate that CCP has apparently decided to do away with our proto-Space Hitler. While I thought that the notion of a Caldari fascist demagogue was actually pretty believable (they really do kind of walk the fine line re: fascism), this is a good "The Caldari are not the goddamn Helghast" moment.
I can see where you're coming from, but I always felt that the Caldari (for all the elements that are homogeneous) are pretty fractured as a society. That's one of the reasons the base idea didn't seem incredibly likely to me (leaving aside issues of execution of his rise).
The State's tendency towards factionalism is subject to a couple factors that took turns poking their noses out in the Heth storyline.
(1) The Caldari culture transcends megacorporate identity, meaning that a leader whose support arises from said cultural underpinnings can unite workers of many corporations. See, e.g., the Brothers of Freedom incident. This was Heth's power base-- the working class, not the State factions.
(2) "Me against my brother; me and my brother against my uncle; me, my brother, and my uncle against the stranger." However much they bicker amongst themselves, the Caldari pull together against an outside enemy. The Malkalen incident and subsequent provocations on Caldari Prime renewed the old anger against the Gallente, and Tibus Heth stoked the fires of nationalism high.
This whole thing was an exception to State factionalism that might have eliminated the State factions and united the Caldari if Heth had immediately made that unity his top priority. If that had occurred, the Caldari would likely have become properly fascist.
It didn't. They aren't. The Templis Dragonaurs are probably going to have to wait another two or three generations before they even might get another crack at power unless the corporate factions are amazingly stupid, but that doesn't mean that the Caldari are too fractious ever to become fascist-- only that the Dragonaur-in-chief bungled the job.
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While I think we're heading to a some kind of a closure, I'd love Heth to do a Sarikusa and escape to null to bide his time. The Templis Dragonaurs probably aren't going anywhere, they have an ingame corp.
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The Templis Dragonaurs probably aren't going anywhere, they have an ingame corp.
Maybe somebody can get a spy in there and disband it. :psyccp:
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I was kind of hoping for the New Raata Empire myself rather than return to the pre TEA megacorp / elitist society.
However, Heth has become a bit of a sorry figure and moving him out is probably the right thing todo.
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The Templis Dragonaurs probably aren't going anywhere, they have an ingame corp.
Maybe somebody can get a spy in there and disband it. :psyccp:
I wonder if they'll wind up going outlaw again? It would be a bit odd if they stay as an official state member corporation.
Although, I have no idea if the Guristas would have them.
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I wonder if they'll wind up going outlaw again? It would be a bit odd if they stay as an official state member corporation.
Although, I have no idea if the Guristas would have them.
In order:
I certainly hope so, yes that would be odd, and probably not.
Of course, the Dragonaurs have done just fine in the shadows of Caldari society over the centuries, flaring up here and there. They represent an ugly and probably permanent undercurrent in State culture, so I think they're really better off blending into the background as the extreme right-wing shadow of the State. The Guristas have occasionally flown left-wing dissident colors, so the two probably mix poorly, the Dragonaurs seeing the Guristas as criminal scum and the Guristas seeing the Dragonaurs as a pack of fascists who are blatantly racist to boot.
That's not to say the Guristas would necessarily refuse to do business....
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I would prefer to see him derping into Federation space, blowing up something and dying like a hero :)
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I'm not overly enthralled by the way they've chosen to go with it. I don't know why exactly, but I suspect I'd have preferred to see some of the more subtle political means the CEP and the other seven megacorp CEOs have at their disposal for cutting him from the herd and leaving him isolated and exposed to whatever payback his various enemies could think of for him. To me, the whole 'we're declaring him a terrorist, have at him' all seems a little forced and 'rapid' particularly as the Dragonaurs and the CPD's association with them have been out in the open for some time now.
Then again, it's an MMO storyline not some le Carre thriller.
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The Eve Storyline has always favored the tropes of epicness in the recent years.
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I was kind of hoping for the New Raata Empire myself rather than return to the pre TEA megacorp / elitist society.
No such thing. It came into being with TEA.
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To me, this whole situation seems completely plausible. Especially given the fact that Heth has a continuously deteriorating mental condition, you can never really tell what the hell he is going to do next. I look forward to putting a superheated plasma charge through his skull. 8)
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I was kind of hoping for the New Raata Empire myself rather than return to the pre TEA megacorp / elitist society.
No such thing. It came into being with TEA.
Er ... no, don't think so. "Ruthless" predated TEA, though it was also Tony G. The "Brothers of Freedom" thing predated and warmed up to TEA, but not all of it was Tony G.
Also, it just makes sense. "Elitist," if you apply it to actual high-performers as opposed to their dynasties, is a near-synonym for "meritocratic." "Meritocratic" also easily morphs into "dynastic" when the children can gain a leg up from the resources of the parents. That's one of the reasons Imperial China's "exams" for highly-placed jobs could indeed result in some poor scholar being promoted to a regional governorship, but more often it was the children of existing high officials and other wealthy sorts who could (and did) pay for their kids to get a top-notch education.
It may not have been spelled out quite so clearly before, but there's long been an undercurrent of the Caldari top tier becoming increasingly corrupt. The fact that it's also long been a Gallentean IGS talking point doesn't make it any less true, though it might make the Caldari less likely to listen.
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Considering the BoF arc had the EXACT same plot as TEA including the Broker making things happen behind the scenes (I was there) I consider it to be the start of the TEA nonsense. Clearly Tony had a hand in that, and clearly it was the in-game set up for the events of TEA . The retcons to Kaalakiota started with BoF and is when I metamorphosed from CCP's number one gushing fanboi to a card carrying member of the bittervet club. It was also the real trigger of CAIN/4th's dropping out of RP and the reason I've mentioned before that I hope they kill Oirtsuu off too and bring back the old Kaalakiota.
Every new BoF article or event was a huge 'WTF?! Who the hell is writing this stuff, do they even know anything about their own cannon'?
You can split hairs about how I worded my above statement and which bit of TonyG's trash was published first but my point still stands that TonyG invented the Robocop-esque Caldari state where all CEOs are either This guy
(http://www.midniteticket.com/sites/default/files/styles/news_page_header/public/ronny-cox-robocop-birthday.jpg)
Or this guy
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pG_Z2cxjdko/TW8IqoLRZfI/AAAAAAAABCs/cEzk4cN7ogE/s1600/0.bobmorton.bmp)
Which is what I'm pretty sure Altarica was referring to. Before CCP let TonyG take a big steaming crap on us, that's not how the State was.
Granted, in the pre-TonyG State still had cyberpunk themes to it and there was sure to have been the odd executive operating with the OCP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omni_Consumer_Products_(RoboCop)#Omni_Consumer_Products) corporate handbook but they'd have been a minority and not a member of the CEP, especially not within Kaalakiota or one of it's major subsidiaries like say Caldari Constructions.
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I think you may be look at things with rose-colored glasses there a bit, Hamish. I don't really remember the Broker being a part of the BoF arc at all, and I didn't have much of a problem with the BoF arc myself. Yes, the stuff leading up to TEA with misery factories and other ridiculous shit was stupid, but that doesn't mean that everything was hunky-dory in the State prior to that. I have little doubt that the megacorporations did a lot of shit that many of us would think was a little beyond the pale, but like you I do not think that they systematically mistreat their employees as a matter of course.
I tend to agree with Aria that while the ideal of the Caldari State was always that of a meritocracy, it would be hard to completely drain an element of nepotism or inheritance from society. If nothing else, simply the fact that you know the right people is a large part of business everywhere, and one of the big reasons a business degree from somewhere like Harvard is more valuable than a degree from my alma mater, even if the level of education is the same -- it's all about who you know. While this may be muted somewhat in Caldari society, assuming that the Caldari do not have a 100% estate tax, it's also likely that wealth will remain somewhat concentrated.
This is not to say that social mobility is nil in the State; I'm sure that it's possible for someone to rise from near the bottom to near the top, especially in the right corporation. I believe both Mens Reppola and his competitor for the Ishukone CEO position were portrayed as originally being rather low level when they started, for instance. But in other corporations, I can definitely see that being extremely unlikely -- Hyasyoda and Wiyrkomi, for instance.
I have always seen the Caldari as being extremely heavily cyberpunk influenced; it's important to note, as I did in the Caldari Dialogues, that this doesn't mean that life sucks for 90% of the population. It does mean that corporate bigwigs have a great deal of power, however, and are going to be loathe to get rid of that. Even the most considerate CEO is still going to want to remain CEO as long as possible; it is only when his position is untenable that he is going to admit defeat and either resign or...take a more permanent route.
I do not see any conflict between a corporation wanting to take care of its employees while at the same time treating them as any other asset. Often, one of the biggest expenses for a business is hiring and training employees -- to toss them away like used tissue paper is foolish. On the other hand, to spend more than you have to to keep them happy and healthy is also foolish. The worst part of TEA was the stupidity of the corporations -- mistreat your employees horribly AND skimp on security? Sure, that's a GREAT idea! How could that go wrong! Go in guns blazing while evidently everything is being broadcast on live TV? Can't see how that could be a public relations nightmare, nosiree. That was the most frustrating part.
In large part, the Caldari State always operated on a sort of consensual pipe dream; that the leaders of the State were the best qualified because they had proved themselves, that everyone was working for the same ends, that it was possible to go from the bottom to the top simply through hard work. As long as times are good, the leaders of the State actually do well (and most of the time they do, because an underperforming CEO will be devoured by the members of the elite angling for his or her position), and the right amount of bread and circuses keep everyone else happy, everything is cool. It's only when things start to fall apart that that mutual delusion starts to break down.
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I think you may be look at things with rose-colored glasses there a bit, Hamish. I don't really remember the Broker being a part of the BoF arc at all
'The Patriot'
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'The Patriot'
Unless you have something I missed, I don't think that is necessarily the Broker. An enigmatic name does not mean it's always the Broker.
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'The Patriot'
Unless you have something I missed, I don't think that is necessarily the Broker. An enigmatic name does not mean it's always the Broker.
It was Hurs who at the time put all the clues together and figured out he was the broker and don't recall anybody disputing his logic. Considering the next major Caldari related story we got from CCP was The Broker instigating a another major state rebellion to achieve his goals in the form of TEA I assume TonyG had simply been allowed to rewrite the story he had in mind via a book instead of a live event. That was about the time he was promoted. I lost all the logs some time ago.
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It was Hurs who at the time put all the clues together and figured out he was the broker. I lost all the logs some time ago.
Hurs also tended to let his conspiratorial paranoia get ahead of himself sometimes. :) I think that may be a perfectly legitimate theory, but I don't know that it is necessarily the case.
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It was Hurs who at the time put all the clues together and figured out he was the broker. I lost all the logs some time ago.
Hurs also tended to let his conspiratorial paranoia get ahead of himself sometimes. :) I think that may be a perfectly legitimate theory, but I don't know that it is necessarily the case.
He did that before TEA was published, and at the time his argument made sense to me, but yes I do agree with your assessment of his persona.
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I think you may be look at things with rose-colored glasses there a bit, Hamish. I don't really remember the Broker being a part of the BoF arc at all, and I didn't have much of a problem with the BoF arc myself. Yes, the stuff leading up to TEA with misery factories and other ridiculous shit was stupid,
The misery factories and other ridiculous shit were part of the BoF arc.
I tend to agree with Aria that while the ideal of the Caldari State was always that of a meritocracy, it would be hard to completely drain an element of nepotism or inheritance from society
I never said the pre-Tony Caldari executives were saints, and I did indicate that there were probably some evil bastards in powerful positions. However, the state was not originally written as having an executive caste that was categorically hedonistic and corrupt and PF suggested that most executives had a sense of duty indoctrinated into them. Also, while in many corps (especially patriots) the executive caste ran along family lines – that DID NOT suggest rampant neopotism which is defined as favoritism granted to relatives regardless of merit. If, because i'm motivated not to see the family name dishonored, I invest a considerable time and money in educating and training my child from the moment she can walk there is a good chance she'll be component. If she's not, then either her cousin gets the job or I'll order her to marry this up and coming kid from the creche and he'll get the job. Keeping things in the family does not mean they don't merit the position necessarily, especially when there is an internal family culture to make damn well sure it's members do merit their jobs.
I have always seen the Caldari as being extremely heavily cyberpunk influenced; it's important to note, as I did in the Caldari Dialogues, that this doesn't mean that life sucks for 90% of the population.
The old Caldari racial description, the one from the time frame we are debating now said most Caldari enjoyed a better standard of living than the other four empires.
Standard of living refers to the level of wealth, comfort, material goods and necessities available to a certain socioeconomic class in a certain geographic area. The standard of living includes factors such as income, quality and availability of employment, class disparity, poverty rate, quality and affordability of housing, hours of work required to purchase necessities, gross domestic product, inflation rate, number of vacation days per year, affordable (or free) access to quality healthcare, quality and availability of education, life expectancy, incidence of disease, cost of goods and services, infrastructure, national economic growth, economic and political stability, political and religious freedom, environmental quality, climate and safety.
If all those factors were better for a Caldari citizen than any other person in the Cluster, am I really looking at things through rose tinted glasses? Really read the whole quote there and think about what that means.
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The misery factories and other ridiculous shit were part of the BoF arc.
I don't remember that being necessarily the case. I remember labor conditions being an issue, but the chronicles that portrayed them as simply ridiculous didn't start coming out until the TEA time period.
I never said the pre-Tony Caldari executives were saints, and I did indicate that there were probably some evil bastards in powerful positions. However, the state was not originally written as having an executive caste that was categorically hedonistic and corrupt and PF suggested that most executives had a sense of duty indoctrinated into them. Also, while in many corps (especially patriots) the executive caste ran along family lines – that DID NOT suggest rampant neopotism which is defined as favoritism granted to relatives regardless of merit. If I invest a considerable time and money in educating and training my child from the moment she can walk and talk because I’m motivated not to see the family name dishonored does mean there is a good chance she’ll at least somewhat competent. If she's not, then either her cousin gets the job or I'll order her to marry this up and coming kid from the creche and he'll get the job.
Well, that still tends to sound like nepotism to me, albeit a milder form; there's definitely an "old boys (and girls) club" mentality among the Caldari upper echelons, I'm sure. I can see your point -- the fact remains that the meritocracy does not directly translate to a lot of social mobility, because those with the biggest advantages have the best means to keep them, and those without the advantages have a hard time competing with them. "Merit" in the State then is less about any inherent ability and more about those with the biggest advantages maintaining them.
The old Caldari racial description, the one from the time frame we are debating now said most Caldari enjoyed a better standard of living than the other four empires.
If all those factors were better for a Caldari citizen than any other person in the Cluster, am I really looking at things through rose tinted glasses?
Keep in mind that's for the average Caldari citizen, and also keep in mind that the Caldari may not see quality of life in the same way as other people. Particularly the section on political freedom seems somewhat out of step with Caldari thought (for the average Caldari, you don't have much of a say in politics at all). It also probably depends a lot on where you live in the State -- in big cities on central worlds, I bet conditions are a lot nicer for people regardless of occupation than it is on some godforsaken rock in the middle of nowhere, simply because you have nowhere else to go if the company decides it doesn't want to bother with you anymore.
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Related: Odo Korachi confirmed in local that Heth is now wanted by CONCORD (on behalf of the State).
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So Heth made it out in that Navy Raven to Tribute (and perhaps from there to Venal)? I'm frankly shocked he made it through the M-OEE8 gatecamp in a faction battleship.
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Figured it'd take more than being cornered to bring him down.
Naturally, now the task of hunting him down falls to a rag-tag assembly of capsuleers...
Heth's got a destination, and I suspect I know what(who) that is.
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So, the event happened? Can someone give us a summary of what went down?
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After-Action Report (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=249913&find=unread)
Summary (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=249915&find=unread)
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Provist and CN toons started logging on, and people instantly flocked to the system. By the time I got there, it seemed pro-CEP forces were forcing their way into the portions of the station Heth had taken control of; they apparently managed to effectively immobilize much of the Dragonaurs' seized fleet while still docked (accounting for the relatively small number of Dragonaur ships that ultimately appeared, compared to the sixty-some they'd been said to have originally taken hold of).
Shortly after I got there, a number of Caldari Navy capitals showed up and docked at the station, apparently to offload further forces to aid in the attack. Quite soon thereafter the Dragonaurs undocked eight capitals, who promptly turned Suspect and started getting tackled down and blasted. The Caldari Navy undocked again soon after, and the suspect caps started dropping quite quickly after that. Unfortunately, the Caldari Navy never went suspect, denying the chance to make this a remotely 'pitched' battle.
The real meat of the event came at the end, when a Raven or Navy Raven - I didn't see it, and heard it both ways - carrying the Dragonaurs' operations leader (and, it is assumed, Heth) undocked and warped off - it never went Suspect.
It got traced to Otsasai by locator agent. I could be wrong, but I suspect it was /move devhax'ed there after the jump out of Haatomo - it got there just a bit fast and unmolested for a navy battleship.
I am also unsure if the Raven went anywhere after that. Last I heard locators were still pointing to Otsasai, but if someone else can post evidence he got into Tribute that'd be awesome.
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Was there any mails to anyone signed up as Caldari-loyalists?
the Caldari Navy never went suspect, denying the chance to make this a remotely 'pitched' battle.
Were there any capsuleers to support the Dragonaurs/Heth?
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The real meat of the event came at the end, when a Raven or Navy Raven - I didn't see it, and heard it both ways - carrying the Dragonaurs' operations leader (and, it is assumed, Heth) undocked and warped off - it never went Suspect.
Dammit CCP, I thought you were getting better about this. :bash:
Edit: I read on the forums that Diana Kim was there.
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Was there any mails to anyone signed up as Caldari-loyalists?
No, I did however receive a mail back from both CEP and CN saying that they will let use know :P when I gave them our arm. I guess the "sign up" list became too big for CCP Falcon and CCP Eterne :(
Were there any capsuleers to support the Dragonaurs/Heth?
Yes, and at least one TomHorn (loyal to Heth/Provists as far what he has screamed in local before) died to IVY League for jumping in as suspect into a high sec area. But as far as I know not during the fight. I was busy shooting the "bad guys. And not complete interested in others. Dragonaurs engaged first and was suspect, I saw no other that became suspect from either side. Heth loyalists that did however I don't think they would have last long :twisted:
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Dammit CCP, I thought you were getting better about this. :bash:
Game mechanics and "drama" mechanics :roll:
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I wasn't there, but I understand that the Provist supporters could not actually do much, due to Navy & corporate security NPCs not being suspect-flagged. In addition to individuals there was at least one small alliance that had declared for Heth.
(For comparison, CAIN alone is larger than the said alliance, so not as much support as it might sound.)
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The real meat of the event came at the end, when a Raven or Navy Raven - I didn't see it, and heard it both ways - carrying the Dragonaurs' operations leader (and, it is assumed, Heth) undocked and warped off - it never went Suspect.
Dammit CCP, I thought you were getting better about this. :bash:
Edit: I read on the forums that Diana Kim was there.
Given the circumstances, I think letting that ship getting a 'suspect' flagging would be as much scripting the event as not doing it. At least, when not setting the flag, the opposition had the choice of whether or not to suicide gank (perhaps in a display that loyalty to the State means more than petty security rating).
While I am glad to see Heth demoted from State Executor, I still feel he is a person that deserves more than this little one sided skirmish, if he is supposed to kick the bucket. The Guristas option is still open too.
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Given the amount of well-cordinated firepower it takes to bring down a Raven (which may have been a Navy Raven to boot), not flagging it as suspect is pretty much as good as scripting the event. If it had been flagged, the opportunity for Heth loyalists to defend it would have existed. Should also be noted that, as far as I can tell, no attention was drawn to Heth being on that ship, meaning no one knew of it's significance.
As for the fight being one-sided, there's a reason for that: almost nobody likes Heth. Dying in a fire was a better fate than he deserved, but CCP has some ~master plan~ for him.
In the GMing business, this is known as railroading. And it's the hallmark of a shit GM.
Edit: just to clarify, I was just as annoyed the last live event I recall being completely rigged, even though it was completely rigged in the favor of my side. You win some you lose some, but never realistically being able to make an impact in the first place through railroading is infuriating.
If Heth has undocked in a buzzard and immediately cloaked, it would have accomplished the same goal without nearly such a bad taste.
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If we go by bare game mechanics, technically the same effect could have been accomplished by an undock insta. And if the Navy ships were not suspect-flagged, one might say that the Provist ships simply did not stand a chance on beating them. If the Navy had been suspect, it would have been at least theoretically possible that Heth's supporters and others would have killed them in time. Though on the sole capital killmail that's been sync'd to eve-kill, CAIN was pretty much the driving factor. (Only mention on the battle report on CEP loyal NPCs is that one did apparently shoot a cruiser that I am pretty sure was in the CEP loyalist fleet.)
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If we go by bare game mechanics, technically the same effect could have been accomplished by an undock insta. And if the Navy ships were not suspect-flagged, one might say that the Provist ships simply did not stand a chance on beating them. If the Navy had been suspect, it would have been at least theoretically possible that Heth's supporters and others would have killed them in time. Though on the sole capital killmail that's been sync'd to eve-kill, CAIN was pretty much the driving factor. (Only mention on the battle report on CEP loyal NPCs is that one did apparently shoot a cruiser that I am pretty sure was in the CEP loyalist fleet.)
Pretty much. Covops with an undock insta would have done the same thing, but without resorting to railroading. ANd not providing a way for Heth supporters to really, well, support Heth is lame.
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As the Navy ships were never suspect-flagged, you could say the event was already railroaded from that point and on.
If they had been, I am sure a lot of trigger happy capsuleers would have come to Heths "aid". While true that a lot of people dislike Heth, far more just want to shoot stuff. Especially shooting event actors, regardless of plot.
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As the Navy ships were never suspect-flagged, you could say the event was already railroaded from that point and on.
If they had been, I am sure a lot of trigger happy capsuleers would have come to Heths "aid". While true that a lot of people dislike Heth, far more just want to shoot stuff. Especially shooting event actors, regardless of plot.
If I wasn't clear on this: yes, it was railroaded from that point on.
And the random factor will always be there, you just accept it and soldier on. Railroading the encounter to go a specific way out of fear of random capsuleer interference is a cop-out.
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Uh, guys, why exactly would Caldari Navy ships be suspect flagged in their own space?
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In the the Gallente-Minmatar skirmish, the Gallente ships were flagged in their own space.
Coming up with a reason would not be difficult.
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In the the Gallente-Minmatar skirmish, the Gallente ships were flagged in their own space.
Coming up with a reason would not be difficult.
~CONCORD!~
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Lately it's seemed like CCP gets railroady when they've got an art asset at stake. This, here, may just be a conventional case of them wanting a specific outcome, but the Caldari Prime Titan was never going to survive that assault no matter what else happened; they'd put way too much work into the DUST side of that event for the event to not happen.
It was, for the record, beautiful work. I just wish I'd been playing Yun Hee at the time so that my primary character could share some of my fond memories.
Ah, well-- there will doubtless be future battlefields with ... um, skyboxes that suggest a hole punched in the atmosphere, a breeze that carries so many embers that it seems no exaggeration to say that the wind is burning, and a freaking crashed titan for a landmark.
... Sure, that'll come up again.
If CCP is just trying to hang on to Heth as a recurring villain, yes, that's eye-roll worthy. If, however, they have something more dramatic in mind, and art assets already in place, I have trouble feeling too hard done by.
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There were a fair few people attempting to declare for Heth in local.
That said, in this very specific instance, the insta-undock arguement wouldn't work. A number of Dragonaurs capitals had been bumped straight back to the undock while in siege, and immediately after undocking you were bounced around while you played pinball between those caps and any player ships that happened to be crowding around them.
So, I understand quite well why they couldn't flag the Raven suspect, but am still a bit sad that they did not flag the Caldari Navy capitals suspect; if Colelie taught us anything, it is that players can - through force of will - preserve the remnant of a suspect-flagged capital fleet until CONCORD shows up and tells everyone to stop.
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Shigeru 2: Electric Boogaloo
Heth going to go out in flames martyr stylee above Luminaire, ramming the remaining provist fleet into the planet.
Poetic Justice or some such :)
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At some point someone has to crash a ship onto Gallente Prime.
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At some point someone has to crash a ship onto Gallente Prime.
That is so AD 23155.
Totally didn't have to look that date up, nope.
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There were a fair few people attempting to declare for Heth in local.
That said, in this very specific instance, the insta-undock arguement wouldn't work. A number of Dragonaurs capitals had been bumped straight back to the undock while in siege, and immediately after undocking you were bounced around while you played pinball between those caps and any player ships that happened to be crowding around them.
So, I understand quite well why they couldn't flag the Raven suspect, but am still a bit sad that they did not flag the Caldari Navy capitals suspect; if Colelie taught us anything, it is that players can - through force of will - preserve the remnant of a suspect-flagged capital fleet until CONCORD shows up and tells everyone to stop.
If you undock into stacked ships (capital or not) and have an insta-warp, in my experience it will warp you instead of bouncing you. This is how I get out of Jita undock when there is a 6 freighter pileup right in the undock port.
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So, I understand quite well why they couldn't flag the Raven suspect, but am still a bit sad that they did not flag the Caldari Navy capitals suspect; if Colelie taught us anything, it is that players can - through force of will - preserve the remnant of a suspect-flagged capital fleet until CONCORD shows up and tells everyone to stop.
Again, does not work when the fight is on undock range. The Templis had a reason not to re-dock - because they were trying to leave the station - but assuming the CEP forces would not siege or triage, they - perhaps except the battleships - could have played docking games. (Though that is probably a bit more difficult to multibox for the people running the event.)
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If CCP is just trying to hang on to Heth as a recurring villain, yes, that's eye-roll worthy. If, however, they have something more dramatic in mind, and art assets already in place, I have trouble feeling too hard done by.
Good point. Though I am thinking chronicle and not art asset.
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They should do that kind of things into deadspace pockets, with various wigglies and perks around, instead around stations where game mechanics start to be seriously breaking immersion at times.
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Not sure if there's GM tools for that, but personally, having on-demand deadspace scenery to use would be great. Or even some of the fluff sites there are on some system - right now most of them are ruins, but there could be some that were "active, living" sites and stations for baseliners in addition to the COSMOS and similar sites.
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Deadspace scenery IS the best scenery. Would also require interested passers-by seeing things in local to have to scan it down, raising the bar for entry only very slightly, but hopefully enough so that people who DO find it are interested in more than "shoot legal targets, get lewt."
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Unless, of course, the site would have a beacon visible on the overview (such as the current scenery sites, or like the Republic Fleet cyno in Colelie).
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Not sure if there's GM tools for that, but personally, having on-demand deadspace scenery to use would be great. Or even some of the fluff sites there are on some system - right now most of them are ruins, but there could be some that were "active, living" sites and stations for baseliners in addition to the COSMOS and similar sites.
If they had tools like this working and stable, I expect that they would've been using them already.
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Actually, I do think there are some limited tools on spawning things like LCOs, but building complete sites is hard. Essentially to really work that'd need a tool that would allow you to place ready-made templates of things and then wipe them afterwards (assuming they all weren't blow up anyway).
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At some point someone has to crash a ship onto Gallente Prime.
Just gimme cyno, Gimme Cyno, GIMME CYNO !! :P
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At some point, DUST needs to implement the Adama maneuver.
"Just fit for cap recharge, jump to the beacon, launch fighters, and jump out. If you pancake, I swear to God I will scoop you up and eat you with goddamn syrup and bacon!"
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At some point, DUST needs to implement the Adama maneuver.
"Just fit for cap recharge, jump to the beacon, launch fighters, and jump out. If you pancake, I swear to God I will scoop you up and eat you with goddamn syrup and bacon!"
Do this to a planet under invasion by Sansha, and the cycle shall be complete.
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I'm jsut headed to bed, but latest news item seems to put the last nails in for the CPD: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/cep-dissolves-state-executor-position-provists/
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I'm jsut headed to bed, but latest news item seems to put the last nails in for the CPD: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/cep-dissolves-state-executor-position-provists/
Translation of the news piece:
"You got it wrong, Tony G. All wrong."
Especially the part where the CEP goes into detail in describing how having an Executor Role is highly "non-Caldari" and "... was a mistake that should have never been made."
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I'm jsut headed to bed, but latest news item seems to put the last nails in for the CPD: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/cep-dissolves-state-executor-position-provists/
Translation of the news piece:
"You got it wrong, Tony G. All wrong."
Especially the part where the CEP goes into detail in describing how having an Executor Role is highly "non-Caldari" and "... was a mistake that should have never been made."
Yep, definitely CCP speaking there, not the CEP.
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You know, much fun as it can be to give CCP a hard time over something you think they did poorly, it's really amazing how well they actually listen to the playerbase. I can't think of any other MMO that actually considers player feedback when doing things like moving the story forward, or adopting a stance on microtransactions. Guess that's why EVE is the only MMO to grow every year since release. 8)
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A stance on microtransactions ?
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I'm jsut headed to bed, but latest news item seems to put the last nails in for the CPD: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/cep-dissolves-state-executor-position-provists/
Translation of the news piece:
"You got it wrong, Tony G. All wrong."
Especially the part where the CEP goes into detail in describing how having an Executor Role is highly "non-Caldari" and "... was a mistake that should have never been made."
I read that and thought, not sure if its "non-caldari", but given that caldari DO what is neccesary not what is "correct", then it was perfectly acceptable to see a single human having full control of the state at a moment of need.
Therefore, i took the statement as something said by someone negatively affected by the whole Directorate issue.
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A stance on microtransactions ?
Monaclegate.
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A stance on microtransactions ?
Monaclegate.
See, I read Lyn's response as a wisecrack about how monoclegate was caused by CCP not understanding the 'micro' part of microtransactions... ;)
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Hence him talking about "having or adopting a stance" based on feedback. But aren't we in a thread about the Heth arc here?
I'm wondering where he'll turn up, if at all. Just imagine some new "outlaw" subfactions for each empire, the classical pirate ones based on, well, business, the others on ideology. :o
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From an outside point-of-view, I don't understand the reason CCP felt that Heth needed to get away; I've only been here a couple of months and there's been a decent precedent for killing major NPC characters off already. The whole getting away thing just seems rather forced and if CCP was looking for a way to create an outlaw Provist group, I think they could have still done it while having Heth captured and/or killed at the battle for the station.
Heck, if they really wanted to split the State (cause, you know, :grimdark:), have Heth captured by the CEP. Then during a trial (or whatever they wish to do) have a Heth-loyalist sect storm the place and attempt to free him. The attempt could even fail, Heth dies, becoming a martyr for the Provists who flee Caldari space and setup as a new 'pirate' faction bent on avenging their fallen idol. Just my thoughts.
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A stance on microtransactions ?
Monaclegate.
See, I read Lyn's response as a wisecrack about how monoclegate was caused by CCP not understanding the 'micro' part of microtransactions... ;)
More on a sarcastic statement about people happy to play with gameplay "microtransactions" but doing an outrage on cosmetic macrotransactions. A good show of scapegoats and justifications for other motives.
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I'm jsut headed to bed, but latest news item seems to put the last nails in for the CPD: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/cep-dissolves-state-executor-position-provists/
Translation of the news piece:
"You got it wrong, Tony G. All wrong."
Especially the part where the CEP goes into detail in describing how having an Executor Role is highly "non-Caldari" and "... was a mistake that should have never been made."
I read that and thought, not sure if its "non-caldari", but given that caldari DO what is neccesary not what is "correct", then it was perfectly acceptable to see a single human having full control of the state at a moment of need.
Therefore, i took the statement as something said by someone negatively affected by the whole Directorate issue.
It is not highly corporate, which for a corporate Caldari State is synonymous with non-Caldari. It also doesn't make a lot of sense when the big 8 are all run by... Chief Executive Officers.
So, now we are left with a war that no longer makes sense in the story, a broken State for numerous reasons (the very reason Heth came to power was it was broken and that hasn't magically been fixed or the reason for the ousting of Heth makes even less sense), and two warring factions that look very very much alike.
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I'm jsut headed to bed, but latest news item seems to put the last nails in for the CPD: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/cep-dissolves-state-executor-position-provists/
Translation of the news piece:
"You got it wrong, Tony G. All wrong."
Especially the part where the CEP goes into detail in describing how having an Executor Role is highly "non-Caldari" and "... was a mistake that should have never been made."
I read that and thought, not sure if its "non-caldari", but given that caldari DO what is neccesary not what is "correct", then it was perfectly acceptable to see a single human having full control of the state at a moment of need.
Therefore, i took the statement as something said by someone negatively affected by the whole Directorate issue.
It is not highly corporate, which for a corporate Caldari State is synonymous with non-Caldari. It also doesn't make a lot of sense when the big 8 are all run by... Chief Executive Officers.
So, now we are left with a war that no longer makes sense in the story, a broken State for numerous reasons (the very reason Heth came to power was it was broken and that hasn't magically been fixed or the reason for the ousting of Heth makes even less sense), and two warring factions that look very very much alike.
While I agree that the war has less of a reason to continue without Heth, wars are not easy things to stop. As for the State being broken, I think the idea is that the worst of the "corrupt neoptism assholes" have been purged. Combined with (hopefully)the new leaders being wary of allowing another Heth to gain traction, and maybe CCP will actually let the State do well for once.
A stance on microtransactions ?
Monaclegate.
See, I read Lyn's response as a wisecrack about how monoclegate was caused by CCP not understanding the 'micro' part of microtransactions... ;)
More on a sarcastic statement about people happy to play with gameplay "microtransactions" but doing an outrage on cosmetic macrotransactions. A good show of scapegoats and justifications for other motives.
Gameplay microtransactions?
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PLEX.
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People weren't outraged at the addition of cosmetic microtransactions, Lyn. To say that suggests a very basic misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the entire Incarna debacle.
They were outraged that the cosmetic microtransactions offered had exorbitant prices ($60 for a monocle, $30 for a shirt), which were defended with absurd and arrogant logic by the developers (Zulu's $1000 pants blog), and came at the same time as an internal memo leak that seemed to advocate Pay-to-Win policies while using insulting terms such as "golden goose" and "milking the cow" for EVE's players (Fearless). All of this at the same time as a lackluster expansion that featured a buggy, unoptimized, and unfinished WiS release.
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Like I said, I think it was mostly scapegoat arguments, red herrings, and strawmen for other griefs, which is why my last post was quite full of cynism.
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Well, I was wrong about them getting rid of Heth and restoring the Caldari, and I'm glad I was. Very glad. :D
I will admit that I still don't think that the Caldari Prime event was really fair, but I'll take the trade. I'm very happy about this, and I don't care how much crow I have to eat. :P
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Well, I was wrong about them getting rid of Heth and restoring the Caldari, and I'm glad I was. Very glad. :D
I will admit that I still don't think that the Caldari Prime event was really fair, but I'll take the trade. I'm very happy about this, and I don't care how much crow I have to eat. :P
(http://metsfanclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/mfccrow.jpg)
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PLEX.
I think the kind of gameplay microtransaction that people were concerned about (that I remember seeing on the forums, at least) is when you pay real life money for an ingame benefit that you cannot gain through any other method. Given that I can make ISK quickly by market speculation (like the quick bastard who snapped up all the medium rails in Jita when the new buff was tweeted), I don't see PLEX as really giving the player anything they couldn't have gotten with a little market savvy.
As for cosmetics, I think Kat pretty much nailed the source of outrage. The insane prices for cosmetic items demonstrated a huge amount of arrogance on CCP's part (and a display of lack of market savvy on THEIR part). Even without Fearless, the backlash would have been there. WITH fearless...well, you get the Summer of Rage. And I wouldn't call any misdirection on the players part: they made it exceedingly clear that both cosmetic macrotransactions and pay-to-win gameplay microtransactions would NOT fly with them, and CCP listened.
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Well, I was wrong about them getting rid of Heth and restoring the Caldari, and I'm glad I was. Very glad. :D
I will admit that I still don't think that the Caldari Prime event was really fair, but I'll take the trade. I'm very happy about this, and I don't care how much crow I have to eat. :P
Crow meat's okay. Nourishes the soul. :cube: