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that the Solteur-class titans are not the same as the Erebus-class titans piloted by Capsuleers?

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Author Topic: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities  (Read 10667 times)

Silas Vitalia

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http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1499793

So, on the outset I don't have any particular issues with this player, and it probably would be interesting if he had a military backing and had the resources to go after a few loyalist corps, etc.

I guess I'm just wrestling a bit with a capsuleer making those sorts of 'disloyal' statements and of course facing no in-game consequences as a limitation of game mechanics,etc.

Of course there are no RP Police to troll the forums and set faction standings due to these sorts of statements.   

If we think about it a bit though, someone saying these sorts 'disloyal' statements might be just fine in a liberal democracy like the Federation (Freedom of the press, etc), but I have to imagine based on what we know of the Empire that running around saying 'down with the Empress' in public would get you shot, immediately, anywhere in the Empire.  You'd probably be able to dock at a station, just once, and then your ship would be confiscated and you'd probably be escorted for a quick trial and execution.

I've kind of ignored this thread on IGS since it breaks my immersion a bit.

Are any of you aware of any PF that perhaps says all four empires signed a clause or something with CONCORD that grants capsuleers immunity from local prosecution from these sorts of things? IE the Empire/state, etc have to suck it up in order to be affiliated with CONCORD and as a result capsuleer's are immune from the typical sedition/libel laws?

Thoughts?










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Casiella

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #1 on: 26 Apr 2011, 11:59 »

I think that the Empire's deal with CONCORD prevents them from shooting people just for saying things they don't like (hence Minmatar loyalists able to enter Amarr space, dock, etc.).

And at least one Amarrian loyalist organization has declared war on them, so there are some player consequences as well.
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #2 on: 26 Apr 2011, 12:21 »

I think that the Empire's deal with CONCORD prevents them from shooting people just for saying things they don't like (hence Minmatar loyalists able to enter Amarr space, dock, etc.).

And at least one Amarrian loyalist organization has declared war on them, so there are some player consequences as well.

I got to say, I rather wish this weren't the case, as currently there are no consequences for standings besides RP, and if you nuke your empire standings enough, being banned from their highsec. There are no rewards for your loyalty, there are no punishments for your betrayal or hatred.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #3 on: 26 Apr 2011, 13:11 »

Capsuleers are too insignificant to actually be worthy of any kind of response from the empires for their words.

All that they say can be easily censored and most of the populations of the empires do not have access to Neocomm so they really do not have to care about what is happening in the other empires either.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #4 on: 26 Apr 2011, 14:13 »

Capsuleers are too insignificant to actually be worthy of any kind of response from the empires for their words.

All that they say can be easily censored and most of the populations of the empires do not have access to Neocomm so they really do not have to care about what is happening in the other empires either.

I disagree. Even in today's single planet that we live on, in most of the world, even someone with no resources can't run around calling for death to their own government without being detained, arrested, or worse.

Someone with infinitely more resources and influence would be under an extremely short leash while in certain jurisdictions, imho.

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GoGo Yubari

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #5 on: 26 Apr 2011, 15:19 »

Capsuleers are too insignificant to actually be worthy of any kind of response from the empires for their words.

I think that statement in spirit is pretty much contrary to everything our PF and CCP has been saying. That there is a disconnect between space and planets can certainly be said (and is supported by the PF), but that's it. The disconnect might be big enough to warrant your viewpoint on the subject of capsuleers spouting words on the forums though, but I do think that CONCORD guarantees of capsuleer freedom also play a role.

Interestingly, and I don't mean this in a mean or argumentative way, the view of the supposed insignificance of capsuleers in general is usually pushed by groups more firmly entrenched in factional loyalties. That the contrary view along with its runway post-human implications has been espoused by Star Fraction - whose players at one point at least were quite firmly set against nationalist ideologies - has probably made the battle between the two viewpoints more pointed and less constructive as well.

I'm just saying that the evidence seems to be pretty heavily in favor of the "capsuleers as demi-gods". More constructively, I'm not saying that the discussion about what exactly are the limits of capsuleer power isn't interesting though, but I do think that saying "there are no UI options for planetary bombardment, hence capsuleers are unable to do so within the game world" is taking things way too far though and twisting the facts to fit the agenda.
« Last Edit: 26 Apr 2011, 15:21 by GoGo Yubari »
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #6 on: 26 Apr 2011, 15:57 »

This
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Ulphus

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #7 on: 26 Apr 2011, 18:00 »

I think the players heavily involved in faction stuff might find themselves trying to understand the somewhat demoralising situation where nothing they do or say has any influence on their faction.  Not the good ideas, or the tactical suggestions or the calls for help.

The obvious reaction to explain this without breaking SOD is that capsuleers as a class aren't that important, otherwise my character would be being listened to by someone, anyone.

The same mechanism would seem to me to explain the tendency for the anti-nationalists to be more likely to expouse the belief that capsuleers can have a great influence on things, otherwise their entire struggle is pointless.

All fairly understandable really, if you think about it.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #8 on: 27 Apr 2011, 04:15 »

Capsuleers are too insignificant to actually be worthy of any kind of response from the empires for their words.

All that they say can be easily censored and most of the populations of the empires do not have access to Neocomm so they really do not have to care about what is happening in the other empires either.

There is a "Did you know..." entry on this site saying that the IGS for example is widely read across the cluster and every capsuleer message is subject to great debates in the mortal world.
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Rodj Blake

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #9 on: 27 Apr 2011, 08:48 »

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Casiella

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #10 on: 27 Apr 2011, 08:57 »

Capsuleers are too insignificant to actually be worthy of any kind of response from the empires for their words.

All that they say can be easily censored and most of the populations of the empires do not have access to Neocomm so they really do not have to care about what is happening in the other empires either.

Capsuleer idolatry on the rise: http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=652&tid=4

Interestingly, a (then) member of Rodj and Lallara's own corp is cited as one of the primary examples of this.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #11 on: 27 Apr 2011, 09:12 »

I think we're missing the one massive corrective mechanic, in and out of game, that this player now faces - he's alienated himself from almost all of the Amarr factional community, and most likely much of the other factional communities (after all, he's not advocating for the end of slavery or anything, so odds are he's not going to get much Minmatar support).

So, yeah. There are no hard-coded mechanics to deal with him, but there is the fact that he's attracted a lot of hostile attention from anyone he might be interested in interacting with.

That said, I suspect that if an IC/in-game explenation was to be presented, it would be that the Empires are bound by very strict CONCORD treaties which prevent them from acting on anything but explicitely hostile, in-space actions from capsuleers. Probably somebody in CONCORD forsaw that there would be legions of psychotic demi-gods flying around within a few years of the start of the capsuleer age, and pointed out that to ban them all from various empires' space for anything less than explicit hostility could drive away the legions of (extremely valuable) capsuleers.
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Aria Jenneth

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #12 on: 27 Apr 2011, 11:17 »

CCP has indicated at certain points that ultimately the only power capsuleers are legally answerable to is-- no, not CONCORD; that just gets to blow you up if you're naughty in certain particular ways in certain particular places-- their corporations.

Not their factions. Not their native governments. Not, again, CONCORD. Not even their alliances. Just their corporations.

The hard part about this is figuring out how such an insane policy would ever have become interstellar law. It may be a matter of there being two practical approaches to dealing with capsuleers: strict control or loose control.

If the factions went for strict control you'd have an arms race over who can train the most of them and who can most swiftly genetically engineer the largest percentage of their population to withstand the pressures of training-- among other uncomfortable problems. No nation, for example, could afford to discharge its capsuleer agents without also somehow irreversibly disabling them, lest they be snapped up by another empire, the Cartel, or various other powers with intelligence divsions. And "disabling," in this case, would probably mean shooting them in the head.

The nations would also be directly culpable for various capsuleer excesses, etc. Furthermore, this comes within spitting distance of slavery, a big no-no for the Federals and Minnies.

Loose control has the merit of preventing an arms race and really wants an arms race over capsuleers. All of them want to have capsuleer minions at their disposal, and can get them using the carrot instead of the stick. The capsuleers aren't under anyone's thumb, so no one's thumb gets smeared in the blood of capsuleer atrocities.

Instead of each faction building a destabilizing stockpile of sentient, crazed weapons of mass destruction, every empire (and other faction) has access to a community of what boils down to blood-saturated mercenaries. Capsuleers bathe in sewage and bodily fluids for a few ISK, while the empires come out smelling like roses. The farther the factions can distance themselves from these deniable assets, the better, and how do nations distance themselves farther than to declare capsuleers to be functionally without nation?

The capsuleers become, in effect, the tyrants of a million or so independent, mercenary city-states (consider the number of crew + support personnel involved), legally beholden only to voluntarily-established nations of cooperative cities-- which they can secede from almost at will.

No empire has authority; every case in which a capsuleer is subjected to empire justice is one where the capsuleer voluntarily submits him or herself, or is forced to by a corporation. Naturally, the nations can take certain covert actions to eliminate particularly troublesome capsuleers, but that is a dangerous game indeed, since any slip-up that compromised the operation would expose that empire, perhaps all the empires, as responsible for killing (or otherwise meddling with the sovereign rights of) capsuleers, with unpredictable consequences.

Any middle road would eventually lead to either the tightest or loosest level of control, with a much more resentful capsuleer population with an adversarial relationship to the factions. Hence the present approach.

Best explanation I can come up with.
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Seriphyn

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #13 on: 27 Apr 2011, 11:25 »

I digress. If a capsuleer wanders out of his designated zones on station, and goes on a killing spree in the station's mall/market/bazaar, then he's going to be held accountable. Of course, there are countless capsuleers employed by the navies and who are integrated with the common people. 3 of the 4 heads of states are capsuleers.

Of course, you're talking about the capsuleer class.

But who's telling me I can't RP a citizen-capsuleer? More importantly, what is? Where's the line?
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Merdaneth

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Re: Faction Loyalty/Dissention and in-game realities
« Reply #14 on: 27 Apr 2011, 11:53 »

In-game reality is that you cannot interact with NPCs beyond the (very limited) means available through the game interface (mostly talking with your mission agents) and that almost nothing happens in the NPC world that is visible to the player

In-game reality is that most of the RPers favor playing and focusing on a world dominated by NPC rulers, NPC culture, NPC traditions and NPC based lore. Most RPers seek to align themselves with an NPC faction rather than with a capsuleer faction.

Obviously, this is going to cause massive problems as a defining factor of RP is interactibility. By basing our RP largely on the NPC world we are shooting ourselves in the foot.

If our heroes and rulers would be other capsuleers, and if our cultural traditions were formed by capsuleer concepts then we would have a much easier time RP-ing. Only we don't want to RP log off traps, alts, timers, corp and alliance mechanics and many other fairly uninspiring game mechanical implementations.

As long as we are talking about our ships IC, it nearly always works out fine, but as soon as we start debating stuff that belongs to the realm of the NPCs, it tends to go bad. However, we want to imagine the NPC world, we are inspired by the EVE PF, by the varied NPC traditions and cultures. That is our problem.

We talk about slavery and slaves, while we really should be talking about the morbid obsession of capsuleers with the bodily remains of other capsuleers. That is capsuleer culture, not this non-interactible slavery thing...


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