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EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 07 Jun 2012, 16:48
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As an international relations and security studies student, it pains me to no end to see people take an extremely one-dimensional and/or one-sided view to this conflict. Firstly...
The bombardment of Caldari Prime was not because the Gallente were unhappy with the Caldari leaving
What started out as a territorial ownership dispute was exploited by cultural nationalists on the Caldari side, and imperialist elites on the Gallente side, as an opportunity to push their goals. This is EVE, we're talking about. It is more than likely the situation was manipulated by powerful people from the start. Using The Early Days (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Early_Days_%28Chronicle%29) chronicle, I'll give a run-down of how the war started, with my own personal perspectives from both sides. I may very well be biased towards the Gallente side, but hey, the RP community hardly paints the Caldari in a negative light with this area of history anyway.
It all started when a Gallente exploration ship happened upon one of the hidden Caldari colonies. When the Federation Senate learned of this they demanded a full-scale investigation into the matter and that all hidden Caldari colonies should immediately been put under Federation authority. This was too much for the Caldari Corporations, which were already grumbling over increasing Federation interference into their affairs. For the Caldari it was a simple question of losing their autonomy forever by caving in or making a stand right then and there. They decided to make a stand.
"You have established these colonies without abiding by Federation law and regulation. What is the meaning of this? Space is to be shared between all individuals, and the Federation seeks to ensure that this can be done freely and peacefully. The Gallente, Intaki, Mannar and others understand these concepts"
"Shared between all, or shared for the benefit of Gallente interests? We have established these colonies in secret, as this mutual law and regulation you refer to is, in reality, all for the benefit of Gallente Prime. The Intaki, Mannar, and others might be so naive as to believe in the Federation's ideals, but we are not. The Caldari reserve the right to carve out an area of space, to determine our own destiny"
"The esteemed Senator is correct. The area of space claimed by these Caldari corporations is not Federation territory, so how can the laws of the Federation apply there?"
"These corporations are still registered economic entities of this Federation. It is clear we need to need to figure out a peaceful resolution"
What happens next, who knows. Some important points...
This was too much for the Caldari Corporations, which were already grumbling over increasing Federation interference into their affairs.
The Federation was interfering in the Caldari corporations and not the society. How representative of the entire Caldari people were the Caldari corporations? It says they were "well-established" in society, and "preeminent in Caldari economic life". Sure, Google, Microsoft and Facebook are well-established in our societies, but they can not be said to represent us as national bodies. I'm not saying they didn't, but it is something to think about. I doubt anyone here could say with a straight face that every single Gallente wanted to oppress the Caldari, and every single Caldari wanted to get rid of the Gallente. With this in mind...
The initial dispute was a disagreement between the Federation Senate and Caldari megacorporations, NOT the Gallente and the Caldari
It says the Federation Senate demanded the Caldari corporations hand their territory over. This may very well include Intaki, Mannar and Caldari Senators as well. In response, the Caldari corporations formed the Caldari State. Why did the Federation Senate ultimately decide to demand they hand it over?
Of the Caldari people, the Caldari Senators, and the Caldari nations, how many subscribed to this new State?
For some reason or another, the Caldari megacorporations were able to take control of all of Caldari Prime and the Caldari people, regardless of peaceful leanings. Was this in unanimous support? What about the Caldari who did not want anything to do with the megacorporations? This is what I refer to as to how this initial disagreement was exploited by nationalists at the highest level, rather than individuals waving pickets at the lowest.
Right after the Caldari defected from the Federation they focused on securing the jump gates leading to their (once) hidden bases, as those bases provided the backbone to the Caldari military infrastructure at that time.
The Caldari were the first to militarize the situation. Would the Federation have deployed their military otherwise? No, but a response to a provocation is necessary. Would the Caldari have trusted the Federation to not immediately attempt to militarily secure the secret colonies otherwise? No. This is called the security dilemma in international relations. One side side does not know what the other side intends, and they must act with the worst case scenario in mind. The other side then responds in kind, and the situation detiorates because of insecurity.
The Federation blockaded Caldari Prime in response to the State militarization of the situation. The State militarized the situation because they could not be sure what the Federation might do in response to their secession. This is called the security dilemma
For the next few days nothing much happened. The Caldari were content to sit by the jump gates, while the Gallenteans were debating how to best negotiate a peace agreement. But the Caldari on Caldari Prime were restless. They found the Gallente blockade intolerable and soon small-scale guerrilla activities escalated into all out hostilities. In the end the Gallente population on the planet had to pay the price for the Federation’s indecisiveness.
This is important. The Federation did not want a war. They were trying to negotiate a peace agreement. They were debating it, meaning there were different opinions on the matter. There was no universal Federal stance as to what was to be done.
The next important bit is that the Caldari struck the first blow. "All-out hostilities" suggests just that, between the Caldari and the Gallente on Caldari Prime. But who would these forces be? Federal-sympathetic nations on Caldari Prime versus State-supporting nations? Nonetheless, this is overlooked.
The Federation was not on a warpath, and the Caldari struck the first blow against Gallente nationals, again due to insecurity about the situation
Then comes the turning point we are all familiar with; the attack on Nouvelle Rouvenor. This is when I turn to the next chronicle, The Breakout (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Breakout_%28Chronicle%29). It's right in the opening sentence.
Following the attack on Nouvelle Rouvenor an extreme right-wing government grabbed the power reigns in the Gallente Federation and advocated a harsh response: bombing Caldari Prime and sending in troops to take control of the planet.
They "grabbed the power reigns". Were they elected? It doesn't say they were elected. Moreover, the dates on the FW quotes suggests the Ultra-Nationalists came into power a mere twenty-four hours after the attack. It is clear this was an uprising at the highest level and NOT a popular one. Secondly, the Federation's response was NOT genocide, and was to take military control of the planet. Yes, there are quotes from the politicians in the FW ranks, but this is rhetoric. "Making the Caldari silence permanent" could easily refer to a Caldari political silence. After all, an individual would be a human before they are a Caldari.
Moreover, from the dates and quotes in the FW ranks, the fascist-led Federation bombarded Caldari Prime for a single day before asking for surrender. This does not sound like genocide to me. When the Caldari refused, the Federation simply decided to continue the bombardment coupled with a ground invasion until the planet ultimately surrendered. What of the secret colonies, though? The situation had become so militarized, politicized, and radicalized, that this was no longer a dispute about territory, but a dispute about control.
Extremists had exploited the trauma inflicted on the Federation to seize control (possibly undemocratically) for their own objectives. Their goals were to protect Federation stability at any cost
This is a plausible goal of a group calling themselves the "Ultra-Nationalists", after all. Now, then, the time between the bombardment to the Hueromont Incident is almost exactly 2 months. It is stated, towards the end of The Breakout, that the Hueromont Incident forced the fascist government out of power to be replaced with a moderate one. This means that the fascist government was in power for only a couple of months before they became unpopular enough to be ousted. This lends more credence to the idea that they were not popular to begin with. A moderate government followed through, but the Federation was not willing to forgive for Hueromont. So, from that, I could easily say...
Federation public opinion was not in favour of orbital bombardment, if the militaristic government only lasted a couple of months
The important thing to take from this harkens from many concepts found in politics and international relations. These are...
a) Political realism
Covering one's motivations in idealistic sentiment to further goals of power and self-gain. Even the Caldari corporations would have been guilty of this, waving flags of nationalistic sentiment to guarantee their control of their secret colonies. The Ultra-Nationalists justified their bombardment of Caldari Prime as retribution for the souls lost at Nouvelle Rouvenor; in reality, they just wanted them subsumed.
b) Insecurity and the security dilemma
The militarization of the situation started when the Caldari were unsure (ie. insecure) about how the Federation may respond to their secession. Likewise, the Federation could realistically not militarize on their end, either. Even if the Caldari asserted they were just defending their new territory, how could the Federation know if they were being truthful? This is the security dilemma.
c) Politicalization and radicalization
The initial issue was nothing to do with Gallente culture interfering with Caldari society. The Caldari corporations, like Matias Sobaseki in his "National Address" (see FW rank quotes), radicalized the situation by stating that the attempt by the Federation Senate to assert authority over the secret colonies was an interference in Caldari culture, rights, and self-determination. These issues were politicized by becoming the primary point of discussion in the Senate (again, see FW rank quotes), rather than the whole original point about ownership rights. Forces on both sides twisted the reality of the situation.
d) Crisis opportunism
It may be very possible that elites on both sides (nationalists within the Caldari corporations, imperialist elites/lobbyists over the Federal Senate) seeked to exploit the situation for their own benefit. A war may prove very profitable, after all, or maybe those with extreme ideals who genuinely believed in those ideologies wanted the situation to deteriorate so that they could fulfill their destinies and visions. The political flashpoint was the perfect crisis to be exploited by opportunistic individuals who wished to push their own goals through.
For a meer territorial dispute to go all the way to an all-out war means there is a LOT of factors that have not been explored by CCP. And the more factors there are, the more complicated the situation becomes. Remember, EVE is about shades of grey. Don't cheapen the IP by saying that one side was completely in the wrong. The 2003 chronicle is very clear in its attempts to be two-sided, just some RPers have seemed to have forgotten and overlooked many of the key points (heck, even I may have overlooked some choice points, and be influenced by confirmation bias).
Hope you enjoyed this read.
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As an international relations and security studies student, it pains me to no end to see people take an extremely one-dimensional and/or one-sided view to this conflict.
You present a very one-sided argument here, with constant references to modern Western civilization, and how it would react, super-imposing it onto the 'correct' behavior of the State/Fed.
This is usually a pair of Bad Idea Jeans.
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Hehe, true. Might be because a lot of IR theory is very Western-centric at the moment.
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I think your characterization of the event as being "a territorial dispute" is inaccurate. Unless you consider self-determination to equate to be a territorial dispute.
The initial dispute was a disagreement between the Federation Senate and Caldari megacorporations, NOT the Gallente and the Caldari
While this is a correct assertion, it leaves to the side the clear Gallente majority in the Senate. Laws passed by the Federation Senate could be expected to represent the will of the majority. The majority is made up of the Gallente senators, who represent their Gallente constituency's interest. Any law that failed to protect Gallente interest was likely to fail to pass through the Senate.
For the Caldari, business represented a path to power that, barring out right discriminatory laws, the Gallente could not prevent in the name of numerical "fairness." If the number of Caldari Senators is limited to the percentage of Caldari/Total Population, they did not see a good way to block legislation contrary to Caldari interest.
Of the Caldari people, the Caldari Senators, and the Caldari nations, how many subscribed to this new State?
We don't know, but in historical cases of insurrection, initial popular support has not mattered. At least some portion of the Caldari population was aware of and working in the "hidden colonies," including Caldari mercenary corporations protecting them. The majority of Caldari were likely indifferent and a significant minority supported the status quo.
I suspect the Caldari Senators had been dealing with being impotent representatives for generations, requiring any legislation they wanted to pass to be supported & likely officially sponsored by a popular Gallente Senator. I can imagine most of them desiring a change in how the Federation Senate operated, but likely not wanting to lose what power they did have. Secession for many of them would mean a lose of their position and status.
The Caldari were the first to militarize the situation. Would the Federation have deployed their military otherwise? No, but a response to a provocation is necessary. Would the Caldari have trusted the Federation to not immediately attempt to militarily secure the secret colonies otherwise? No. This is called the security dilemma in international relations. One side side does not know what the other side intends, and they must act with the worst case scenario in mind. The other side then responds in kind, and the situation detiorates because of insecurity.
Really? You believe that if the Caldari had stood by and said, "we are out," that the Federation would have stood by and not deployed its military to enforce Federation law on the "illegal" corporate colonies? It was a test of the Federation Senate's will to enforce its own laws. If they had been unwilling to enforce their laws, the entire fabric of the Federation is called into question.
For a meer territorial dispute to go all the way to an all-out war means there is a LOT of factors that have not been explored by CCP. And the more factors there are, the more complicated the situation becomes. Remember, EVE is about shades of grey. Don't cheapen the IP by saying that one side was completely in the wrong. The 2003 chronicle is very clear in its attempts to be two-sided, just some RPers have seemed to have forgotten and overlooked many of the key points (heck, even I may have overlooked some choice points, and be influenced by confirmation bias).
Re-read this Seriphyn and take your own advice.
IC, Caldari loyalist are going to continually paint the Federation as an dangerous entity controlled by Gallente special interest working to push Gallente cultural values on the rest of the cluster in a more insidious form of conquering than the Empire could ever achieve. Stepping away from that and portraying the Federation as something else IC betrays the IP.
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Hehe, true. Might be because a lot of IR theory is very Western-centric at the moment.
Very true. Current political thought is not only persuasive to others due to the financial dominance of many of it's Western proponents, but it also attempts to speak from a moral high-ground.
I think past societies didn't give much care to that sort of thing. I wonder if future ones would either?
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Victors would always write the history so that they would have the moral high-ground.
Easier to indoctrinate the population so that they would be more lenient towards expansionist tendencies of the government in the future.
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Current political thought is not only persuasive to others due to the financial dominance of many of it's Western proponents, but it also attempts to speak from a moral high-ground.
I think past societies didn't give much care to that sort of thing. I wonder if future ones would either?
Like you said, the modern day world subscribes to this "Western democratic standard" that the only correct form of government is democracy, that there is such thing as a universal declaration of human rights, and that all humans are equal. This is done through Western international organizations like the UN, IMF, EU, etc. They enforce this subscription to these standards.
No one does this in EVE. The Feds try, but it does not have any impact. There is no "liberal standard" in the EVE universe.
I was talking with someone from I-RED in EVE about this topic; would the average Caldari even have cared about Gallente cultural imperialism until the Caldari corporations made an issue of it? Would the average Gallente even have cared about the fact Caldari culture was not totally compatible with their own? Was there even a Gallente/Caldari distinction, considering they were in contact for hundreds of years? This is what I go back to regarding politicization, that only when the Caldari corporations said "You're being oppressed" do the Caldari go "Oh, shit, we've been oppressed this whole time?". But then there's Graelyn's point as to whether the Caldari, or even the Gallente for that matter, subscribe to these trends of flashpoint fabrication by the media. In chronicles like "Cities of Refuge" suggest how human nature has not changed in EVE; to the citizens of Caldari Prime, they just try to live their lives. How many in each of the factions care about politics that much, both now, and back during the Gallente-Caldari war?
Another thing to consider is whether the Caldari on the run-up to the war were really that Caldari to begin with (considering they joined the Federation as founders, and it states the Caldari corporations did not like the Gallente, not mentioning their politicians), and only when the Caldari corporations assumed control of Caldari Prime, did they instigate a cultural renaissance that saw the Caldari return to the old ways? Would the average Caldari have cared that much, until, suddenly, society said they should care? I doubt many of us care that much about the rise of the BRICS to actually actively do anything about it, beyond discussion.
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Another thing to consider is whether the Caldari on the run-up to the war were really that Caldari to begin with (considering they joined the Federation as founders, and it states the Caldari corporations did not like the Gallente, not mentioning their politicians), and only when the Caldari corporations assumed control of Caldari Prime, did they instigate a cultural renaissance that saw the Caldari return to the old ways? Would the average Caldari have cared that much, until, suddenly, society said they should care? I doubt many of us care that much about the rise of the BRICS to actually actively do anything about it, beyond discussion.
Being a founding member of an organization does not mean you do so willingly. Poland was a founding member of the Warsaw Pact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact), that does not mean they wanted to be part of it. It is amazing what a people will do in order to survive, especially when outnumbered and out-gunned (teched).
In the timeline (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline), 114 years after first contact (22517) "[t]he Cultural Deliverance Society (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cultural_Deliverance_Society) (CDS) arrives on Caldari." (22631)
There are 490 years between the CDS arrival on Caldari Prime and the founding of the Federation. During that time, various Caldari states (& corporations) are likely working alongside and in conjunction with Gallente states (& corporations).
In 23121 - "The Gallente Federation is founded. Caldari are forced by circumstance to join." 33 years later, the Caldari secede from the Federation.
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Current political thought is not only persuasive to others due to the financial dominance of many of it's Western proponents, but it also attempts to speak from a moral high-ground.
I think past societies didn't give much care to that sort of thing. I wonder if future ones would either?
Like you said, the modern day world subscribes to this "Western democratic standard" that the only correct form of government is democracy, that there is such thing as a universal declaration of human rights, and that all humans are equal. This is done through Western international organizations like the UN, IMF, EU, etc. They enforce this subscription to these standards.
We’re also getting to watch how ineffective it is to continue working from these basic assumptions when dealing with cultures and governments which do not hold to them, particularly Russia and it’s various allies in the Middle East – Iran, Syria, etc. Recall watching Russia happily annex a couple pieces of Georgia 4 years ago, their continuing support of the Syrian regime that even China has finally condemned, their close partnership with Iran.
The biggest distinction is whether these cultures and their leaders view diplomacy as something where everyone can work together or if they treat foreign policy as a zero-sum game. I can certainly see the Caldari and the Amarr (and probably the Minmatar, and the Gallente to a lesser degree) playing diplomacy like that – there are no win-wins, what’s good for my enemy is bad for me, what’s bad for him is good for me, and what’s good for me is bad for him, what’s bad for me is good for him. Nothing is good for everyone.
Watching western countries work for compromise and win-wins with governments like Russia and china playing zero-sum is…
:bash:
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Being a founding member of an organization does not mean you do so willingly. Poland was a founding member of the Warsaw Pact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact), that does not mean they wanted to be part of it. It is amazing what a people will do in order to survive, especially when outnumbered and out-gunned (teched).
In the timeline (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline), 114 years after first contact (22517) "[t]he Cultural Deliverance Society (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Cultural_Deliverance_Society) (CDS) arrives on Caldari." (22631)
There are 490 years between the CDS arrival on Caldari Prime and the founding of the Federation. During that time, various Caldari states (& corporations) are likely working alongside and in conjunction with Gallente states (& corporations).
In 23121 - "The Gallente Federation is founded. Caldari are forced by circumstance to join." 33 years later, the Caldari secede from the Federation.
500 years is a long time though, enough time from a lot of generations to forget. And from my reading of the PF the Caldari weren't being curbstomped or exploited in a way similar to the European Colonialism of old. Yes their culture probably was transformed, at the very least in terms of governance, laws and commerce but they were given massive opportunities for growth and development.
The first Caldari corporation was founded after the CDS, and it's probably that the whole idea of corporations came from the culture of Gallente Prime. It's also probable that the Caldari system of laws and government was transformed to be more in line with the local laws on Gallente Prime. So the defining entity of the modern Caldari State was actually something the Gallente gave the Caldari and in combination with Gallente openness, that suggests to me that proto-Federal society was probably highly, if not fully integrated.
From that at least, IMO the whole ethnic rivalry thing seems somewhat contrived, though possibly something that the megacorps would use as propaganda to help turn the general populace to the corporate (over Federal and local Caldari government) cause, especially in the wake of the propaganda goldmine that the invasion of Caldari Prime would have given them.
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The first Caldari corporation was founded after the CDS, and it's probably that the whole idea of corporations came from the culture of Gallente Prime.
I've been saying this for years. People tend to forget that the Federation is an ultra-capitalistic society, with many of the Gallente mega's having 'the largest of corporation of it's type in New Eden' somewhere in it's description. Not in the largest in the Federation, but the largest in New Eden; the largest importer and exporter, the largest retail and distributor, the largest entertainment corp, the largest insurance company, the largest manufacturer etc.
I think the Caldari adopted the Megacrop model because the saw it as the source of the Gallente's power, only the decided it would be more efficient and honest to run the government directly rather than through a democratic facade of lobbyist, mass media and politicians.
Also, while I didn't read the OP since I already know what it says I'm going to go ahead and through my support behind Seri here. The Caldari are definatley nasty evil badguys, and the Gallente are the natural defenders of all that's good and wholesome and any events of their shared past should be viewed through that lens.
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500 years is a long time though, enough time from a lot of generations to forget. And from my reading of the PF the Caldari weren't being curbstomped or exploited in a way similar to the European Colonialism of old. Yes their culture probably was transformed, at the very least in terms of governance, laws and commerce but they were given massive opportunities for growth and development.
500 years can also be a relatively short time in a culture's memory.
The first Caldari corporation was founded after the CDS, and it's probably that the whole idea of corporations came from the culture of Gallente Prime. It's also probable that the Caldari system of laws and government was transformed to be more in line with the local laws on Gallente Prime. So the defining entity of the modern Caldari State was actually something the Gallente gave the Caldari and in combination with Gallente openness, that suggests to me that proto-Federal society was probably highly, if not fully integrated.
Bakumatsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opening_of_Japan) and modern Japan are excellent examples of a culture rapidly assimilating what it views as useful tools from a more powerful culture, but retaining its own unique cultures and identity.
From that at least, IMO the whole ethnic rivalry thing seems somewhat contrived, though possibly something that the megacorps would use as propaganda to help turn the general populace to the corporate (over Federal and local Caldari government) cause, especially in the wake of the propaganda goldmine that the invasion of Caldari Prime would have given them.
I think that so long as there were clear physical differences between the groups or even they just live in largely separate communities, the ethnic rivalry would exist. In the Balkans, the people have lived near each other for centuries and yet devolved into ethnic cleansing in the 1990s. There is the centuries old ill-will between Shi'ite & Sunni in the Arab world is another example.
Also, while I didn't read the OP since I already know what it says I'm going to go ahead and through my support behind Seri here. The Caldari are definatley nasty evil badguys, and the Gallente are the natural defenders of all that's good and wholesome and any events of their shared past should be viewed through that lens.
Sounds like TonyG! :P
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I have also been thinking that the Federalists of the time probably would have seen the secret Caldari colonies as some kind of illegal tax havens, attempts to escape Federal legislation and competition. The explanation for the bombardment of Caldari prime would probably have gone like "The enemy was allowed enough time to evacuate but instead, they chose to abandon a large fraction of the population as human shields for the weapons of interplanetary genocide, located under the largest cities. The resulting loss of lives is testament for the ruthlessness of the enemy and will not go unavenged."
Now if a business happens to gain access to untapped, almost inexhaustible resources, it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to use them to gain a monopoly and maybe even invest in a paramilitary unit or two. Is it out of question that the secret colonies could have contributed to how the Caldari megacorps became what they are, or is it clear that they we're already pretty established and powerful enough to disobey the government, the colonies being just the straw which broke the camel's back?
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I don't think that I can state with suitable propriety the vehemence with which I reject the whitewashing of one faction in this manner, so I shall content myself with the following objections. I hope this doesn't come off as anger, so please don't read it with that tone in mind.
First, I note that the pieces of evidence that contradict the above arguments are largely discounted. For example, the factional warfare quotes are referred to as "rhetoric", while the barest pretexts by which a justification for Gallente actions might accomplished are seized upon with undue force. This is how you play tennis without the net. Why, precisely, are we to consider them rhetoric? No support for this assertion exists. I think the assertion that we should assume them to be meaning what they say is supported by common sense.
Second, I'll note that it seems a continual effort of some to promote the Gallente Federation as the beacon of truth, the spirit of hope, and the essence of all light in the Eve universe. Despite TonyG, the Eve universe is not written this way. The Eve universe, by TVtropes lights, is a grey and grey world, in which all factions have their upsides and downsides. The downside of the Federation is its contempt for other cultures and its habit of killing anyone who doesn't want to hold to Federal values. To support this, I'll note the efforts of CCP Abraxas and Dropbear to create moral ambiguity, the Chronicles documenting the crummier aspects of the societies (Methods of Torture, Two Deaths, etc), and the news stories that presented the Gallente in a less than flattering light (I don't have the time to dig them up, but there are incidents of Gallente terrorism, interference with other empires, etc).
Third, it's also a matter of prime fiction that the Caldari were not coerced into a rebellion, but that it was a popular rebellion which was accomplished through certain organizations. That is why some of the Megas actually assassinated and subsumed some of the other Megas into themselves at the Tea Ceremony, and it is why terrorist activities were undertaken by other Caldari organizations. One would not expect a coalition between the IRA and Microsoft unless both were activated by a deeper sentiment, a greater goal. As well, it's noted in the Chronicles that the Caldari had established the conflict as a war involving their autonomy as a people, and the timeline notes that the Caldari were not willing partners in the formation of the Federation. We also have the Caldari Senator and CEP quotes to support this contention.
"Slowly but surely we are betraying the legacy left to us, the children of the Raata. The light of the Caldari spirit grows ever darker under the encroaching shadow of our would-be masters. Our very identity as a people is being subsumed by the Federation and we must act to preserve it."
- Excerpt from a National Address, delivered by Kalaakiota CEO Matias Sobaseki. CE 23154.6.26
"It is rather strange that the good of the many seems to constantly coincide with whatever policies weaken the Caldari, the Intaki, and the Mannar and keep them under the heel of the Gallente."
- Caldari Senator Kiriusu Otenga, Senate session 23154/T3782. CE 23154.11.21
"We will not permit you to tell us how to be Caldari, and so you leave us with no choice"
- Excerpt from the Caldari Proclamation of Secession. CE 23154.11.22
Fourth, I would submit that it's absurd to suppose that the Caldari populations were driven into the wilderness of Caldari Prime merely because of an invasion or bombardment of military centers. It's also unrealistic to suppose that the quote regarding the silencing of the Caldari voice is mere "rhetoric", especially when no support for that conclusion exists in any way whatsoever. Furthermore, the picture regarding the bombardment shows a burning cityhttp://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/File:Gcwar.jpg (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/File:Gcwar.jpg), the impact on the Caldari was enough to spark a hatred that burns hot to the present day (for example, see the "Never Again" Chronicle), and the urgency and desperation of the evacuation have no justification save that of survival. If we were to consider historical parallels, the actions and evidence are more conducive to the genocidal interpretation than to a military one. Moreover, the Gallente statements in the FW ranks are pretty clear, with no trace of irony or overstatement:
"The savages have murdered the only ones with any sense among them. They lit the fire, now they will burn in it."
- Senator Fronte Belliare, Morning of Reasoning. CE 23155.2.10
"A moment of silence is not enough. For their crimes, we must make the Caldari silence permanent."
- Luc Duvailer, newly sworn in President of the Federation, after the Nouvelle Rouvenor attack. CE 23155.1.15
And consider the Caldari response, which is far more inflamed than would be expected from a mere occupation by the Gallente:
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
- CEP response to Federation demands for unconditional surrender after initial bombardment of Caldari Prime. CE 23155.1.18
Fifth, the Gallente initiated hostilities. I'm not sure by what lights a blockade is considered a peaceable action, but it's largely considered a hostile act by most nations in history. Consider how kindly the United States treated the German submarine actions in the First World War. With the necessity for trade and industry as the lifeblood of the Megas, the Caldari could not long resist if a blockade was continued, and as such, the initiator of hostile action must be those who first undertook to create an existential threat focused on the other. Which would be the Gallente. Again, to show PF support:
"We survived on this world for thousands of years without the Gallente. Do they think we will starve now?"
- Wiyrkomi CEO Taaiko Wiyrkomi, Response to the Gallente blockade of Caldari Prime. CE 23154.11.30
Sixth, I would argue that the viewpoint of the conflict as a "territorial dispute" is contradicted by the evidence. It may have been so for the Gallente, but both the quotes and the "The Early Days" Chronicle indicate that the Caldari saw it as a matter of individual autonomy and identity from the beginning, with an understanding of the Gallente as a people who were enacting a racial hegemony over the other members of the Federation. This is supported as a factual understanding by the existence of powerful Gallentean racialist groups(see old news articles), and, again, by Chronicles and quotes from the FW ranks. In the Eve timeline, it is also noted the the Caldari were not willing members of the Federation: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline#Age_of_Expansion_.28AD_16262_-_YC_100.29 (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Timeline#Age_of_Expansion_.28AD_16262_-_YC_100.29) (AD 23121).
It would be nice if we could move beyond the attempts to rewrite the PF of the Gallente and their actions in order to create a "good guy" who can then be used to smack other role players over the head. Certainly, in character, I will admit few or no faults of the State to outsiders. Outside of that, I'm perfectly willing to say that the State has many attributes I consider morally inferior to other societies. However, this dichotomy does not appear to be a real option for some, and I think that that limitation in their thinking could approve of some modification.
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Amen.
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One would not expect a coalition between the IRA and Microsoft unless both were activated by a deeper sentiment, a greater goal.
Fund it!
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I don't think Seri's point is actually to say "State Bad, Fed Good!" but to point out that saying "Fed Bad, State Good" is to miss other side of the discussion.
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It might be good to pause here and remember that we are discussing about fiction, out of character. An indisputable truth about who is right and who is wrong would be boring and kill the role-playing. It's hard to believe that the backstory of the Gallente-Caldari conflict would have been written to have no ambiguity in it. In my understanding, Seri is trying to sketch the Federal point of view here. The Caldari side of the argument is already quite well-known.
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It might be good to pause here and remember that we are discussing about fiction, out of character. An indisputable truth about who is right and who is wrong would be boring and kill the role-playing. It's hard to believe that the backstory of the Gallente-Caldari conflict would have been written to have no ambiguity in it. In my understanding, Seri is trying to sketch the Federal point of view here. The Caldari side of the argument is already quite well-known.
I don't think anyone is getting heated or anything. But I do believe that you are wrong on Seri's presentation. He proposed a viewpoint based upon the status of a neutral observer with a background in International Relations. Now, that's fine, a forum is for discussion of such views. But I don't think that his view conforms to PF, rather, I think you have to twist the PF into spaghetti in order to come up with his view. And as for the fictional viewpoint, I'll note that this is the OOC side of the discussion, and he didn't preface anything with "this is what my character thinks". Unless people indicate otherwise, I support literal and practical interpretations of their words.
And Seri admits that he may have confirmation bias. I think that he does. It seems to me, that in his analysis, the whole affair is a matter of one side being completely irrational, greedy, and evil, and the other side, at worst, slightly indecisive. This is not, I would again submit, an interpretation that can be justified without a complete rewriting of the primary PF involved and a complete disregard for other PF that is available.
Now, people rewrite and reinterpret all the time, to suit their own purposes and views. This doesn't make someone evil, it makes them human. Naturally we want the side we pick to be the good guys, and the other side the evil stinkers. I could be wrong, but this is what appears to be happening here, cloaked in the sense and atmosphere of an IR analysis. But, trust me, you can make such efforts support any side - with a little work, I could absolutely reverse Seri's entire theme.
So let's not go into a game of guessing character interpretation, or Seri's motives personally, or any of those things, because they are both not useful and I prefer to avoid personal attacks on the motives of another. I will note, again, that some RPers, and I am not referring necessarily to anyone in particular, will not admit even OOC that their faction has any major faults.
My concern is, does the interpretation conform to PF? Is it reasonably compatible with the fiction presented by CCP? No, it is not.
This doesn't mean that I'm calling Seri a bad RPer, or that he can't RP this way. But I can - and will, thank you - argue that his arguments are flawed, and not supported by the evidence. That, after all, is one of the primary purposes of a forum.
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I don't think Seri's point is actually to say "State Bad, Fed Good!" but to point out that saying "Fed Bad, State Good" is to miss other side of the discussion.
Cas, this might be a reasonable idea, except that this is not provided as a Gallente viewpoint, but as a "better perspective" on the PF. I don't think a radical reinterpretation of the PF, for all players, can be called simply a "different side of the discussion". It's an attempt to reshape the perspective of the RP community to seeing the Caldari rebellion as a fraudulent action instigated by selfish individuals who manipulated the masses, against an innocent and entirely acceptable Gallente regime whose worst crime was military action to protect themselves.
This is not supported by the PF, in my view. I think that, to espouse the above, you have to treat the relevant fiction in-game like silly putty, interpreting it according to your own arguments and views. I prefer a more inductive method, where we read the fiction and model the fictional past according to what we are told. There's a big difference in both philosophy and practice there.
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The Caldari side of the argument is already quite well-known.
Vik,
Your second and third posts are very reasonable, but your first one did come across quite heatedly to me, so I imagine that's why Bastian was making that point.
I often try to sympathise with Caldari RPers even though I'm not really one myself and consider what difficulties they've had to face having their RP entirely destroyed by TonyG/CCP/Heth and the difficulties surrounding that. I think that must be difficult.
On the other hand I feel that the dominant perspective 'out there' on the Caldari-Gallente conflict is the Caldari perspective. Even though I'm not really a Gallente RPer either, in my brief flirtation with Federalism, the amount of RPers of all colours (even what seemed to be the majority of Minmatar RPers) hating on the Fed seemed incongruous with PF and can make a Federal RPer frustrated. I can understand Seri wanted to redress this perceived imbalance.
I also admit to possible bias colouring the way I see things, as should we all.
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I'll give a run-down of how the war started, with my own personal perspectives from both sides. I may very well be biased towards the Gallente side, but hey, the RP community hardly paints the Caldari in a negative light with this area of history anyway.
This is what I keyed on, at any rate. And for what it's worth, I think that a Gallente history would take a view very much like modern Western viewpoints.
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Even though I'm not really a Gallente RPer either, in my brief flirtation with Federalism, the amount of RPers of all colours (even what seemed to be the majority of Minmatar RPers) hating on the Fed seemed incongruous with PF and can make a Federal RPer frustrated.
I'm not entirely sure why. My character is quite strongly pro-federation because when the Minmatar were rebelling and needed the help, the Gallente were there.
Sure, they're sometimes casually ignorant of Matari customs, and occasionally obnoxious in the way they're surprised that the Minmatar don't want to be a copy of the Fed, but if they hadn't provided support when they did, the republic probably wouldn't exist.
There is also the issue that a third of all Matari live in the Federation. I could see some people being grumpy that the Fed has more opportunity for a lot of Matari than the Republic does, but really, it's because there is a lot more opportunity for them than at home.
I note that there isn't much information about Matari immigrating to Caldari space...
(I hesitate to use the behaviour of the FW as evidence for anything, but when the Caldari are bored, they can sometimes be seen aiding the Amarr in Minmatar space.)
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Cas,
Seri isn't known for trying to making posts about how things would look from the prospective of a Gallente character. Seri is known for his endless crusade to convince the flesh and blood players of the RP community that the Caldari are Eve's bad guys and the Gallente it's good guys. Not characters. Players. He's not spinning IC propaganda, he's spinning OOC propaganda and he's been at it for a very long time.
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I don't think that I can state with suitable propriety the vehemence...
But you did. In short, your telling Seriphyn, and the rest of us, that he's doing it wrong.
In my opinion HIS opinion is slightly to far on the 'side' of the Fed, a bit to favorable to them. But his is an informed claim based on the limited PF available to us - you on the other hand, simply state that he's wrong based on your own opinion that you mostly pass off as in-disputable evidence that everything he's argued in the OP is entierly wrong. Your claiming that he's white-washing the Fed of any In-universe blame or guilt while at the same time painting it black again, re-inforcing the more popular Caldari-based side of the arguments with your opinion and discrediting anything that's not in-line with it.
I've spent some time looking over the logs of my own posts to try and find the one where I posted my own 'resume' of the Gallente-Caldari war, specifically the events around Caldari Prime. I did not find it, but did not look to hard, either. (I'm tired, and will be in bed soon.)
In short, the resume pointed out why there are no clear answers and at least two different scenario's are possible regarding Caldari Prime and the events around it - there is no solid evidence to back either and both could be the actual answer. We will never know unless CCP hands us a clear answer to the question.
TL:DR; You are arguing your opinion as fact and pushing Seri's opinion aside without even underlying your opinions with any solid arguments, contrary to Seri who pointed our the source of his beliefs regarding the events and how he theory-crafted that they might make sense. I don't agree with his assesment entierly but at least he made an effort to clarify how he came to those conclusions. You should too, instead of attacking his ideas out-of-hand.
Perhaps I'll be around to partake in this tread tomorrow. Heading off o/
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Cas, this might be a reasonable idea, except that this is not provided as a Gallente viewpoint, but as a "better perspective" on the PF. I don't think a radical reinterpretation of the PF, for all players, can be called simply a "different side of the discussion". It's an attempt to reshape the perspective of the RP community to seeing the Caldari rebellion as a fraudulent action instigated by selfish individuals who manipulated the masses, against an innocent and entirely acceptable Gallente regime whose worst crime was military action to protect themselves.
This is not supported by the PF, in my view. I think that, to espouse the above, you have to treat the relevant fiction in-game like silly putty, interpreting it according to your own arguments and views. I prefer a more inductive method, where we read the fiction and model the fictional past according to what we are told. There's a big difference in both philosophy and practice there.
Which part of the PF does support the notion that the Federal Government was being at all malicious in it's actions?. The timeline says the Caldari (I wish CCP had made the distinction between the governments and the races more clear :( ) were forced to join the Federation by circumstance, not by coercion. If 'Caldari' means all Caldari, then IMO the specifics become quite muddy, why would all 'Caldari' agree to join on circumstance? The proto-Fed would sway to the masses as much as it does today. But if 'Caldari' means the ruling corps (as I think) then it makes sense they felt forced to join either by their affiliations with other corporations and governments or because the broader populace was okay with the Federation. Either way the corps did join the Federation, so why would the Federal Government think all Caldari felt unhappy or disaffected by the decision, if the average Joe even did feel unhappy at the time.
The chrons state that once the Federation stumbled upon a secret colony, (noting that reach of the Federation wasn't even enough to find out about millions of people and a secret military), they did what I imagine any government would do, and asked for the colonies to be put under their control. The next line of the chron is: "This was too much for the Caldari Corporations, which were already grumbling over increasing Federation interference into their affairs." (Emphasis Mine) I don't think it is at all unreasonable to say that the corporate leadership led the succession not because of any bold Braveheart-esque notions about freedom from tyranny, but simply because their bottom line and ability to operate freely was being hurt by Federal taxes and regulations.
As far as genocide goes, burning cities don't prove anything, this is Baghdad in 2003: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0kcaziP-0o and lot of Iraqis probably won't like the coalition for a while, but doesn't mean any genocide was attempted during the Iraqi war. Secondly given that there was a large Gallente population on Caldari Prime (supported by the chrons) indiscriminate bombing would be killing a lot of them too. Thirdly an entire population of I'm guessing hundreds of millions (I'm not sure on the numbers) into the wilderness? I know the chron says it but it strikes me as completely implausible if they were fleeing orbital genocide. In order to support that many people we know from modern experiences they'd likely end up in large refugee camps, which would be perfect targets for orbital strikes. And if they didn't, how exactly would all these city dwellers survive in small groups without survival gear and supplies? I think it's more likely that some of the population fled because of the bombing and invasion, but not all of it. Finally if the Federation really wanted to commit genocide, why bother invading? Just evacuate as many of the loyal citizens as you can then drop NBC weapons onto the population centers. Remember the Federal government at the time was massively pro-war and anti-Caldari, with the doveish elements terrified of being 'traitors'. And the Navy officers were newly appointed cronies, I'm sure they would have been willing to kill Federal citizens as collateral damage ("They will sing songs of your sacrifice" or "They lived on the same world as the Caldari! They were bad!").
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But you did. In short, your telling Seriphyn, and the rest of us, that he's doing it wrong.
I think I have been clear about this: Seri may RP how he desires, and I am not saying that he cannot appropriate to himself or to his character any view he desires. But to say that I cannot state my disagreement with another view (which certainly implies that the other view, in my opinion, is wrong), doesn't really amount to much more than a "shut up". I don't think that's what you mean to say.
So let me put it this way: if I do disagree with Seri's view, and I do, and forums involve discussions of differing views, which they do, how would you suggest I exhibit my disagreement without, ah, expressing my disagreement? I'm sure you see the problem for me here. :P
I don't think that my arguments can be said to be vehement, unfair, or insulting. I took various points I disagree with, and stated my responses. In no way does doing so reflect personally on myself or Seriphyn - or you, either. Nor did I - intentionally, at least - insult him or suggest that he, personally was arguing in bad faith. I do think that the attempt to argue your faction into sainthood, so to speak, is a bad idea, but Seri may indeed see his faction in that light. I see none of them in that light, incidentally.
In my opinion HIS opinion is slightly to far on the 'side' of the Fed, a bit to favorable to them. But his is an informed claim based on the limited PF available to us - you on the other hand, simply state that he's wrong based on your own opinion that you mostly pass off as in-disputable evidence that everything he's argued in the OP is entierly wrong.
My apologies. I thought - in retrospect, rather foolishly - that everyone had as much interest in the Caldari backstory as I do, which is my failure. I've amended my post with some links and quotes, although I will note that I did indeed reference a few Chronicles, so I don't think that your statement of my argument is entirely fair.
Your claiming that he's white-washing the Fed of any In-universe blame or guilt while at the same time painting it black again, re-inforcing the more popular Caldari-based side of the arguments with your opinion and discrediting anything that's not in-line with it.
I have to express my belief that you are engaging in a fallacy here. Specifically, just because a country commits an atrocity does not necessarily make that country "evil", or, at least, evil for all time. To illustrate, consider Germany and the Holocaust: Germany today is not the same country it was in 1944, nor were all of its citizens evil or willing collaborators in the Holocaust.
Now, what can we say about the Gallente and Caldari, even if I'm right? Well, the Caldari committed an illegal action, as opposed to a more legal means of secession, and engaged in terrorist atrocities. The Gallente decided to essentially reply with incredibly disproportionate retribution against Caldari civilians. Is this a plausible interpretation? Yes. Has such a thing happened in real history? Yes. Does it mean that the Caldari are now clean as a whistle? No. I therefore do not consider my view to be the "Caldari viewpoint", but rather the balanced view, which sees both sides as having committed atrocities, but in this case, the Gallente doing more damage by a good bit.
Consider how you would approach someone who claimed that Tibus Heth's expulsion of Gallente expatriates from the State as justified, since they were enemy agents. Suppose that this person invented scenarios of fifth columns and spies, which required this expulsion. He might make a good argument, but it would have the fatal flaw of being contradicted and not supported by the PF. This, I submit, would be an analogous case to what Seri is doing. Now, no one is saying that Seri can't hold that view, or that doing so is "RP'ing wrong". But one can certainly hold a view that says his theories don't conform to a reasonable reading of the PF.
In short, the resume pointed out why there are no clear answers and at least two different scenario's are possible regarding Caldari Prime and the events around it - there is no solid evidence to back either and both could be the actual answer. We will never know unless CCP hands us a clear answer to the question.
Again, to say that there is no solid evidence to back either scenario is, in my opinion, incorrect. Seri has to dismiss some evidence as "rhetoric" or biased statements, while extrapolating other evidence beyond reason (again, in my opinion), and inventing other assumptions out of those extrapolations. I don't think that that's the best way to "decide what happened".
The current view is not "Caldari-centric". Caldari RPers have never been a huge force in the community, certainly not enough of one to set the tone of the discussion. The current view is the idea most people have entertained off of a reading of the PF. I have argued Caldari-centric views with my character, so I can assert with great confidence that the standard scenario is one that can use a bit of spinning from the Caldari point of view as well. I just don't try to assert it as OOC fact as well.
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Which part of the PF does support the notion that the Federal Government was being at all malicious in it's actions?. The timeline says the Caldari (I wish CCP had made the distinction between the governments and the races more clear :( ) were forced to join the Federation by circumstance, not by coercion.
Circumstance implies coercion or threatened coercion. Precisely how else would the Caldari be "forced" to join? It's made fairly clear by the timeline that the Gallente were rapidly expanding, assimilating all nearby planets and populations. Therefore, since they lacked the technology to resist, the Caldari had no choice but to join, either peaceably, or, eventually, by military subjugation. This is not unreasonable: consider the fate of colonies and tribes that stood in the way of the Westward Expansion of the United States.
If 'Caldari' means all Caldari, then IMO the specifics become quite muddy, why would all 'Caldari' agree to join on circumstance? The proto-Fed would sway to the masses as much as it does today. But if 'Caldari' means the ruling corps (as I think) then it makes sense they felt forced to join either by their affiliations with other corporations and governments or because the broader populace was okay with the Federation. Either way the corps did join the Federation, so why would the Federal Government think all Caldari felt unhappy or disaffected by the decision, if the average Joe even did feel unhappy at the time.
It's noted in the Corporation descriptions and the Chronicles dealing with them that the Megacorps essentially were Caldari society and government well before the secession. But to assume that the Megacorps had such a role at the time of the Federation's founding is an entirely different matter, and, moreover, the beginning of the "The Early Days" Chronicle states that the corporations were not as powerful as they are now. Nonetheless, this point has little relevance to the discussion, I think.
The chrons state that once the Federation stumbled upon a secret colony, (noting that reach of the Federation wasn't even enough to find out about millions of people and a secret military), they did what I imagine any government would do, and asked for the colonies to be put under their control. The next line of the chron is: "This was too much for the Caldari Corporations, which were already grumbling over increasing Federation interference into their affairs." (Emphasis Mine) I don't think it is at all unreasonable to say that the corporate leadership led the succession not because of any bold Braveheart-esque notions about freedom from tyranny, but simply because their bottom line and ability to operate freely was being hurt by Federal taxes and regulations.
Your assertion that the rebellion was not popular in nature is contradicted by numerous sources of PF (again, by my reading):
"Slowly but surely we are betraying the legacy left to us, the children of the Raata. The light of the Caldari spirit grows ever darker under the encroaching shadow of our would-be masters. Our very identity as a people is being subsumed by the Federation and we must act to preserve it."
- Excerpt from a National Address, delivered by Kalaakiota CEO Matias Sobaseki. CE 23154.6.26
"It is rather strange that the good of the many seems to constantly coincide with whatever policies weaken the Caldari, the Intaki, and the Mannar and keep them under the heel of the Gallente."
- Caldari Senator Kiriusu Otenga, Senate session 23154/T3782. CE 23154.11.21
"We will not permit you to tell us how to be Caldari, and so you leave us with no choice"
- Excerpt from the Caldari Proclamation of Secession. CE 23154.11.22
The Caldari never wholly clicked with Gallente government. Even when they were co-founding the Federation alongside the Gallente, Intaki and Mannar, the Caldari megacorps were also establishing secret colonies and deep-space resources outside of Federation borders that weren't subject to Gallente trade regulations. The Caldari viewed this as part of the process of retaining their cultural identity and autonomy.
So, we have a quote from a Caldari CEO, a Caldari Senator, and, presumably, one from whatever Caldari government existed at the time. In addition, from "The Early Days" we have Caldari guerrillas and partisans, in addition to the terrorist dragonaurs. We should also keep in mind that executing a war is the worst thing a corporation can do to its bottom line, since military forces are an investment with no material return (narrowly speaking). As well, there were corporations that did not want to secede, lending further credence to the point that the conflict was not economically motivated. A broad-based, economically disastrous war for independence has, in history, usually been the result of popular feeling and mistreatment of the rebelling population.
As far as genocide goes, burning cities don't prove anything, this is Baghdad in 2003: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0kcaziP-0o and lot of Iraqis probably won't like the coalition for a while, but doesn't mean any genocide was attempted during the Iraqi war.
Fortunately for Baghdad, we weren't bombing it from orbit, or the results would have been, ah, different. Consider the other sources regarding orbital bombardment that we have in Eve, if you will. First, the Starkmanir tribe was nearly destroyed by an orbital bombardment (Chronicle: Khumaak). The Sansha were nearly annihilated by similar means. The Chronicle Xenocracy has a capsuleer threatening the destruction of a city by means of railguns. The specifications are exact: each shell will destroy everything within half a kilometer. The only orbital bombardment in Eve history that is not totally catastrophic is the Caldari bombardment of Caldari Prime in the invasion, and those bombardments are said to have been directed as pinpoint strikes against purely military targets, and they still lead to massive loss of life.
Genocide isn't necessarily wiping out every member of a race or people. It's the destruction of massive numbers of them, usually only for the crime of being in that group.
Secondly given that there was a large Gallente population on Caldari Prime (supported by the chrons) indiscriminate bombing would be killing a lot of them too.
Well, we may presume that it did, although, since the Gallente apparently preferred underwater cities, perhaps not.
Thirdly an entire population of I'm guessing hundreds of millions (I'm not sure on the numbers) into the wilderness? I know the chron says it but it strikes me as completely implausible if they were fleeing orbital genocide. In order to support that many people we know from modern experiences they'd likely end up in large refugee camps, which would be perfect targets for orbital strikes. And if they didn't, how exactly would all these city dwellers survive in small groups without survival gear and supplies? I think it's more likely that some of the population fled because of the bombing and invasion, but not all of it. Finally if the Federation really wanted to commit genocide, why bother invading? Just evacuate as many of the loyal citizens as you can then drop NBC weapons onto the population centers. Remember the Federal government at the time was massively pro-war and anti-Caldari, with the doveish elements terrified of being 'traitors'. And the Navy officers were newly appointed cronies, I'm sure they would have been willing to kill Federal citizens as collateral damage ("They will sing songs of your sacrifice" or "They lived on the same world as the Caldari! They were bad!").
Again, you are contradicted (in my opinion, based on my reading) by both real world history, and by PF.
First, consider Germany's approach to genocide in World War 2. Why, if they wanted the Jews and the Russians dead, would they bother invading? Well, partially because they wanted the land (and similarly, apparently many Gallente preferred to live on Caldari Prime) and because genocide is difficult to accomplish from the air alone. Very difficult, in fact. As well, the germans desired to use the russians as slave labor and serfs. That the Gallente would plan to eventually put boots on the ground to assure their victory isn't unreasonable - it's actually necessary for the aim.
Second, from the "The Early Days" Chronicle:
...the Federation retaliated at once by sending an invasion force down to Caldari Prime and began a systematic orbital bombardment of the planet. Soon, the Caldari population had been driven to the mountains and the forests; their resistance getting weaker by the day.
Now, systematic doesn't mean "targeted at military installations". It means "thorough", "complete", and "methodical", to take a few from a thesaurus. And the Chronicle states that the remaining Caldari population were driven to the mountains and forests. Not the military (which was apparently only in the colonies anyway), but the civilian population. If we examine under what circumstances this occurs in a war, we see (consider Japan and Germany in World War 2) that it happens when cities are completely destroyed (as in the firebombings). If civilians are able to remain, they typically do (as in the Blitz).
In addition, if the Caldari civilian population was in no danger, than the decision to evacuate them was insane. Left on the planet, they'd cause far more trouble for the Federation than they would cause the military of the nascent State. Evacuating them nearly cost the Caldari the war - why the need for so hasty, dangerous, and foolhardy an operation? The only explanation to hand is that the Caldari population faced an existential threat.
To end, the following quote puts the capstone on my argument for the bombardment being targeted at the civilian population:
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
—CEP response to Federation demands for unconditional surrender after initial bombardment of Caldari Prime. CE 23155.1.18
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EDIT: On further thought, whatever. Caldari Victor. Apparently we can't delete posts though :(.
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(http://www.space-matters.info/img/girl-hag.jpg)
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Jev North, I like the response.
To the discussion at hand:
In addition, if the Caldari civilian population was in no danger, than the decision to evacuate them was insane. Left on the planet, they'd cause far more trouble for the Federation than they would cause the military of the nascent State. Evacuating them nearly cost the Caldari the war - why the need for so hasty, dangerous, and foolhardy an operation? The only explanation to hand is that the Caldari population faced an existential threat.
This is the most striking argument when talking about the size of the bombardment. 'The Breakout' supplies it with plenty of lines.
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But if 'Caldari' means the ruling corps (as I think)
Many of them didn't exist until after the founding of the Federation and they weren't the government yet. As stated elsewhere some of us believe that the Caldari, who were relatively primitive when the Gallente landed, copied the corporate system from the Gallente because they believed it was the source of the strength. The Caldari would have seen Gallente forcing their control over the new corporations as a deliberate attempt to keep the Caldari weak so that they could be dominated.
Finally if the Federation really wanted to commit genocide, why bother invading?
According to the chrons, entire Caldari bloodlines were rendered extinct. How do you define genocide?
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According to the chrons, entire Caldari bloodlines were rendered extinct. How do you define genocide?
What chronicle(s)? My Google-fu is failing. Also I'm not denying assertions you guys have made.
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There is one reason to evacuate the population even if there was no danger of genocide: The need for work force. It can be assumed that the majority of the Caldari population was on Caldari Prime, but - now that the planet could be blockaded by the Gallente - suddently the majority of the industrial sites necessary to fight the war were on the colonies.
Looking at the rank quotes:
The Federation is not a defined region of space, of planets, of mountains, rivers, or woods. It is a vision.
- President of the Federation, Arlette Villers. CE 23154.6.2
Things start to roll on early June.
Slowly but surely we are betraying the legacy left to us, the children of the Raata. The light of the Caldari spirit grows ever darker under the encroaching shadow of our would-be masters. Our very identity as a people is being subsumed by the Federation and we must act to preserve it.
- Excerpt from a National Address, delivered by Kaalakiota CEO Matias Sobaseki. CE 23154.6.26
Caldari don't seem to be very happy. This from late June.
The laws of the Federation were written for the good of the many. Not the good of the Gallente nor the good of the Caldari. Hopefully, we can help them remember this.
- Gallente Senator Fronte Belliare, Senate session 23154/T3782. CE 23154.11.21
This may or may not coincide with the secret colonies being discovered and the Federation wanting control of them.
It is rather strange that the good of the many seems to constantly coincide with whatever policies weaken the Caldari, the Intaki, and the Mannar and keep them under the heel of the Gallente.
- Caldari Senator Kiriusu Otenga, Senate session 23154/T3782. CE 23154.11.21
In any case, during the five months, debate has heated up.
We will not permit you to tell us how to be Caldari, and so you leave us with no choice.
- Excerpt from the Caldari Proclamation of Secession. CE 23154.11.22
...and there we go. At least five months of discussion, and Caldari secede.
You have long since made your choice. What you make now is a mistake.
- Excerpt from the Federation Presidents response to the Caldari Proclamation of Secession. CE 23154.11.22
The Federation, as we know, doesn't accept the secession.
They seek to fragment the Federation for their own selfish pride. Take their planet, strangle it and let's see how proud they stand after.
- Vice Admiral Eisen Piroit, Addressing the Senate. CE 23154.11.28
After a week, the Federation Navy uses blockade...
We survived on this world for thousands of years without the Gallente. Do they think we will starve now?
- Wiyrkomi CEO Taaiko Wiyrkomi, Response to the Gallente blockade of Caldari Prime. CE 23154.11.30
...it's not very effective.
They will retaliate. We must be prepared.
- Vice-Admiral Orlan Mito, Caldari Navy, Morning after the Nouvelle Rouvenor attack. CE 23155.1.14
After one and a half months of blockade, Nouvelle Rouvenor happens.
A moment of silence is not enough. For their crimes, we must make the Caldari silence permanent.
- Luc Duvailer, newly sworn in President of the Federation, after the Nouvelle Rouvenor attack. CE 23155.1.15
The Ultranationalists seem to be A-OK with genociding some Caldari.
[04:00][Command] Orbital Bombardment to begin T minus one hour
[04:05][Command] Fleet begin deployment into close orbit
[04:40][Command] Begin Lock Targets. Orbital spread. Pattern Delta-Four-Two
[04:59][Command] Admiral Signals: For the people of Nouvelle Rouvenor
[05:00][Command] Authorize weapons free. Execute bombardment
- Fleet Log, Caldari Prime Orbital Bombardment. CE 23155.1.17
First strike seems to follow some pattern.
Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest.
- CEP response to Federation demands for unconditional surrender after initial bombardment of Caldari Prime. CE 23155.1.18
However, there seem to be a significant amount of survivors. This would seem to signal a change towards total warfare.
As we make the tea, you must take it. The Caldari way demands it.
- Matias Sobaseki, CEO of Kaalakiota, Morning of Reasoning. CE 23155.2.10
This far, there has been those corporations amongst the Caldari who have supported staying in the Federation and opening negotiations. After Caldari Prime has endured the siege (and assumably bombardment) for over three weeks, the Morning of Reasoning happens.
The savages have murdered the only ones with any sense among them. They lit the fire, now they will burn in it.
- Senator Fronte Belliare, Morning of Reasoning. CE 23155.2.10
The Morning of Reasoning seems to have intensified the conflict even more.
This Federation is now at war. We have no time for dissenters, our Admirals will follow the will of this government or we will replace them.
- Hume Roir, newly appointed Gallente Minster of Defence. CE 23155.2.18
A week after the Morning of Reasoning, the Gallente seem to have some war weariness, but the U-nats are still in control.
Their fleet is in total control of Caldari Prime's Orbit. We're heavily outnumbered and outgunned. To be able to effectively evacuate the population we need exactly one month of complete orbital control. Ideas anyone?
- Admiral Orlan Mito, Caldari High Command Session. CE 23155.2.21
Evacuation of the population starts almost two weeks after the Morning of Reasoning. Bombardment has lasted for four weeks and the siege for over eleven weeks. The Breakout chronicle tells us that the Caldari need one month / four weeks to evacuate. The Caldari counterattack drives the Gallente from the orbit and there's even talk about bombing Gallente Prime.
High command need more time to complete the evacuation. We shall provide.
- Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba’s personal log entry #21A231. CE 23155.3.7
Four weeks after the Morning of Reasoning and little over two weeks into the evacuation. The Breakout tells us that initially, the Caldari were successful at taking control of their orbit. About half of the Caldari population is still on the planet, and the Federation is ready to counterattack. Tovil-Toba disrupts the counterattack by attacking the Gallente ships and facilities on the orbit of Gallente Prime.
He is a cunning one this Tovil-Toba, but he can not evade us forever and his destruction will serve as an example to all Caldari.
- Admiral Eisen Piroit, Gallente Navy. CE 23155.3.10
Initially, the campaign was quite successful, but Tovil-Toba's resources are few.
Non-essential personnel, abandon ship.
- Admiral Yakiya Tovil-Toba’s last command. CE 23155.3.15
The evacuation is almost complete, but the fleet under Tovil-Toba has been destroyed. We know what happens.
Hueromont was our failure yes - our failure to strike harder and strike faster to destroy those traitorous bastards where they stand.
- Luc Duvailer, President of the Federation. CE 23155.3.16
Despite the Ultranationalist words, Tovil-Toba's last action caused a change in government for the Gallente.
...and of Caldari bloodlines, I cannot remember chrons either, but essentially, the lack of other bloodlines from Caldari Prime has been hand-waved as the bloodlines being assimilated into Deteis and Civire due to them being minority groups in the new post-evacuation colonies.
Edit: Fixed one quote. (Tags instead of quotation marks.) Quotations collected from Caldari and Gallente militia rank descriptions.
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+1 For that collection of PF quotes, Mithfindel
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Yea, the timeline is great!
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According to the chrons, entire Caldari bloodlines were rendered extinct. How do you define genocide?
What chronicle(s)? My Google-fu is failing. Also I'm not denying assertions you guys have made.
This one: http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=dec01-01 ? That doesn't say anything about bloodlines actually being 'rendered extinct', just that people got over racism? But I'm sure it demonstrates genocide. The numbers provided by this chron http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=03-dec-02 state that hundreds of thousands were genocided by the bombardment.
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Just to add an interesting bit to this very interesting thread, while Zag and I often engaged in "political analysis" of the federation, its government and corporations
We figured that Caldari Corporations were vertically integrated, they did not become monopolies but sure as hell had their entire chains held tight.
On the other side, Gallente Corporations were horizontally integrated (retail in all its forms and channels) and used other corporations to solve the other logistical or strategic issues.
Thats probably what started the whole issue, Gallente corps wanted to compete with some of the Caldari ones, but they didnt allow it and only handed contracts down their sub-corps or divisions, which would raise more than one eyebrow in the federation ultra-liberal market for "anti-competitive" behavior.
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http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/New_Horizons_%28Chronicle%29
Runia didn’t know much about the history of the Caldari; she knew that Caldari Prine - the old home of the Caldari - had several continents and that the different Caldari bloodlines came from different continents. Back in the days when the Caldari still occupied Caldari Prime the difference between the bloodlines was profound, not only in physical appearance, but also culturally. Runia suspected that the beliefs that the Caldari bloodlines were very different from each other stemmed from these facts. But when the Caldari had to leave their home planet and the long and arduous war with the Gallente Federation erupted the Caldari race as a whole was uprooted and thrown into a melting pot were fighting for their survival was all that mattered. The frantic decades that followed altered the Caldari psyche forever. Traits such as discipline and loyalty came to the forefront and shaped - and continue to shape - Caldari society into something completely new. The corporate state came into being, an all-engulfing machine that both nurtured and dominated its citizens. All the different bloodlines, Deteis and Civire the two largest, were affected by these deep-rooted changes and molded to the norm.
The effect was that the Caldari thought of them as Caldari first, their corporation came second, with the bloodline they belonged to a distant third. None of the mega-corporations were structured around the bloodlines and they intermingled freely on every social level. Although the bloodlines were proud of their heritage they didn’t feel it was an important aspect of their life. Inter-marriages are not common, but this has more to do with physical differences than anything else.
So, yes - there were survivors from other bloodlines but so few of them that we don't see any in game. I suspect it's because their descendants would be 9/10 (pulled out of my ass) Deties or Civre by this point. If that's so, I would count not having enough pure members of a bloodline to continue it as being extinct.
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My initial analysis of the rank snippets is most certainly wrong.
Five months of debate after the secret colonies were found.
Once this was ruled in the favour of the Federation in the Senate, then secession.
After one week, Federal blockade.
After one and a half months of blockade, Nouvelle Rouvenor.
Bombardment starts after a few days, and continues for five weeks. (Three months after the secession.)
Three weeks into the bombardment, the hawk CEOs kill off the dove CEOs.
Two weeks after the Morning of Reasoning, the nascent Caldari Navy clears the orbit of Caldari Prime and ends the bombardment.
Two weeks after breaking the siege, Gallente are ready to counterattack. Tovil-Toba acts first, and plays cat-and-mouse with the Gallente for a week around Gallente Prime.
Three weeks after breaking the siege, the Caldari battlegroup near Gallente Prime is down to its flagship. Tovil-Toba guides the Kariola into atmosphere, allowing the Caldari high command one more week to finish the evacuation.
Four months after the secession, evacuation is completed.
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If the information outlined by Mithfindel (nice job, btw) is correct, then I see little chance that the bombardment was an intentional U-Nat genocide on the Caldari, atl a 'kill everyone' kind. 5 weeks worth of 'systematic bombardment' of the planet - entierly unoposed until the blockade was stopped - and 'hundreds of thousands' were the number of fatalities? That's the only clear 'number' I've seen anywhere (in the second of the 3 crons regarding the war, IIRC) and the only way a 5-week sustained bombardment (with the intention of killing everyone) could kill that few would be gross incompetence on the part of the Federal fleet.
Several sources detail the damage done by, for instance, a single large railgun's impact. 1 kilometer in diameter worth of pure destructive power, per shot? Dominixes have room for 6, with re-fire ability to send off dozens per minute, and the Federal fleet had plenty more than just one Dominix. And yet, 100k to 900k seems an absurdly low number if the idea was to kill everyone - just a day's worth of shooting any city should yeald a considerably higher tally, they had weeks. Hell, the Federation's non-Caldari civilian population suffered more losses than that, standing at over 2.5 million dead, arguably a greater 'attempt at genocide' than the bombing could hope to be.
Obviously we could claim that the cities emptied out in mere days or hours when the bombardment started, but the fatalities should be far, far higher regardless. I mean seriously, how hard could it be to shell the outlying areas as well? Take more careful aim and shoot the main lines of retreat out of the urban areas? Each shot obliterates a kilometer-wide area, after all - you don't need to aim that well.
On the other hand, claiming it was a campaign to dismantle the corporations and assimilate the Caldari culture and people into the Union by force, is another matter entierly, one that seems more likely in my eyes. Especially under the U-Nats - who likely viewed the Caldari as a direct danger, to themselves, their people, politics, economy or whatever - that had to be silenced by force. Even after the infamous carrier-drop that ended with forcing the U-Nats out, the new Federal government elected to continue the war, starting by returnig to Caldari Prime to continue where they left off. Ofc, the Caldari were gone by then, ensuring the planet fell to the Federal forces soon enough, and the war dragged on for another century or so. A war the vast majority of the Caldari people survived without any major problem, because as far as we know, (thanks to lacking PF on the subject) no other Caldari planet was shelled from orbit.
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What if the entire population of Caldari Prime was only a few million at the start? The did start out from a handful of spread out bio-domes after all. It would explain a lot, from the tech gap to how they managed to haul them all out in badger sized ships in a month to all sorts of other details.
The Gallente Navy may not have had many battleships at all; even ten years ago IC battleships were capitals and they hadn't yet met a hostile force requiring them to have large standing Navy. These events were several hundred years ago IC, and as far a I know only the Amarrians are currently still using hulls from that time period. Plausible?
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Two important snippets out of the The Science of Never again chronicle:
Gallente warships had pummeled Caldari Prime cities from orbit uncontested for far too long had planetary defense been in the forefront of the Caldari technological initiative at the time, things might have been different. [...] As evident by the fate of Trevor’s parents and hundreds of thousands like them, the Caldari paid a terrible price for their lack of foresight.
There's the part about hundreds of thousands and that the bombardment was indeed (likely among others) aimed at cities.
Then, to put it into perspective,
The truce that left Caldari Prime—once the home world for millions of Caldari—legally in the hands of the Gallente Federation was the breaking point.
Apparently Caldari Prime was indeed very thinly settled or the numbers are a bit off, with planets being huge and so on. Even then it shows a relative trend, with even "just about 10% killed".
Last but not least, today genocide is defined as any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the groups conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
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We do know that the Dominix design is from the days of the Caldari-Gallente war, but probably from the later part, close to the Battle of Iyen-Oursta when Gallente heavily invested into drones. (Initially, their drone technology wasn't more advanced than simple mines with limited mobility.(1)) Also, only certain parts of Caldari Prime would be bombarded, as the Gallente had sent troops in and, thus, there was a ground war going as well(2).
It is also quite possible that the Gallente did only "systematically bombard" the planet for a shorter duration to land troops safely. There's little information to confirm or deny this - though the chronicles tell about taking the planet (2), so it actually seems more likely that the Gallente are talking the planet the old fashioned way, at least until the Caldari gain aerospace superiority. The Breakout also specifically mentions Gallente troops "on and around" Caldari Prime. Of course, Duvalier's talk about silencing the Caldari permanently doesn't sound too friendly, and the boots on the ground can also inflict damage on the civilian population, even if the Prime Fiction parts focus on the orbital bombardment.
(1) The War Drones On http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=aug04 (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=aug04)
(2) The Breakout http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=aug01 (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=aug01)
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Comparing weapon technology of "today" with how the performed "back then" is a highly speculative matter. War has the habit of starting an arms race and rarely do people kill each other with the same stuff by the start and end of the war. Especially with the time span of this one and all the years that have passed since then.
Further, this planetary attack was hardly a surprise and the Caldari had probably taken all possible precautions shelter wise to protect themselves against the attack.
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Three days. Besides, shelter is relative against weapons like these.
The Science of Never Again chronicle states that planetary defense wasn't the most advanced technology of the caldari - if it was, it would've been different.
But yes, it didn't hit them by surprise.
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And all this essentially confirms what I've tried to get across.
There is no conclusive evidence for the genocide theory (any type) available, but neither is there hard evidence that excludes it - this means there are countless questions that can be asked regarding the whole situation and how it played out, but very little in the way of answers. Ergo, Seri's post here can be seen as the official Federal view-point - the oposite end of the two view-points present in the conflict, the other being the popular claims made by the Caldari side of the events and their viewpoints, accurate or no.
We simply don't know for sure, but we can theory-craft until we die of old age, and Seri has presented an 'alternative' view after analyzing the issue at hand. Still plenty of questions, but as much as I'd love to have a few more answers to things like intentions, (The Federation's intentions, before RN and after the U-Nats took control, after thy got kicked out, what the Caldari mega's was thinking, etc) means, conclusions and more details on the following 100 years worth of warfare. However the lacking answers also lets us have more discussions and conflicts over this, IC... and OOC. This is good, imho - it would produce more activity around it as both sides argue their perspective viewpoints on the matter at hand and the results of those came about. Good roleplay and some pewpew should never be declined.
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Ergo, Seri's post here can be seen as the official Federal view-point
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Seri has presented an 'alternative' view after analyzing the issue at hand.
I don't think Seri's point is actually to say "State Bad, Fed Good!" but to point out that saying "Fed Bad, State Good" is to miss other side of the discussion.
Cas, this might be a reasonable idea, except that this is not provided as a Gallente viewpoint, but as a "better perspective" on the PF.
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I take it you agree with Vikarion then, Orange? I don't get the meaning in your post.
Honestly, I don't know exactly what Seri wanted with his post. Maybe my idea is right, and he made a "federal" view-point on the matter at hand. Maybe he's just analyzed it from his own viewpoint and provided the original post as a theory-crafting idea on how and what and why regarding the outbreak of the G-C war. I don't know. Would help if he would come aroudn here and clarify... *nudge*
I've made my opinion clear anyhow, and see little more to contribute to the conversation - especially being unsure what exactly the purpose of the tread is.
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I take it you agree with Vikarion then, Orange? I don't get the meaning in your post.
The point is that Seri did not start out saying that he wanted to develop an In-Character Federal viewpoint, official or popular. He presented the analysis as a better perspective on the prime fiction based on his educational background. He proceeded to cherry pick prime fiction he referenced and extrapolated possible alternative actions despite his educational background. I may be overvaluing his education by assuming the study International Relations includes the League of Nations, United Nations, national governments, etc and their success at gaining compliance with their will without at least the threat of arms.
I do not think it is a better perspective out-of-character.
I think there are real gems in his analysis and agree that the security dilemma between the Federation and Caldari Corporations was real. I disagreed that the Corporate security concerns were ill-founded, as he seems to have put forward in his post. I think his analysis is an excellent starting point for developing a solid Federation perspective on the beginnings of the Gallente-Caldari War.
Perhaps that is the real goal of the thread. It is clear that the Caldari RPers have a developed viewpoint and that there is not a well developed Federation perspective on the G-C War.
To that end, I think it is worthwhile to include at least a brief discussion on the corporate secession of Serpentis (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ORE) and ORE (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ORE). Both began life as Federation corporations. They expanded their operations beyond the official borders of the Federation (much like the Caldari corporations). The Federation government did not take to take truly restrictive action against of either of them until they were too big or distant for the Federation to mount an effective campaign against them. Is this because a single corporation was not important enough? Perhaps the loss of some corporations will not damage the foundation of the Federation? What about the secession of a different corporation?
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It is clear that the Caldari RPers have a developed viewpoint and that there is not a well developed Federation perspective on the G-C War.
I wouldn't say that there isn't a well developed Federation perspective on the G-C War. I think rather that there are multiple developed perspectives on it, none of which has become socialized enough among Federation RPers to become the "perspective of reference" (quotes mine).
Will there ever come a time when there are enough Federation RPers agreeing on anything to create such a thing?1 Maybe.
1Myself included. I'm not an agreeable person.
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To that end, I think it is worthwhile to include at least a brief discussion on the corporate secession of Serpentis (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ORE) and ORE (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ORE). Both began life as Federation corporations. They expanded their operations beyond the official borders of the Federation (much like the Caldari corporations). The Federation government did not take to take truly restrictive action against of either of them until they were too big or distant for the Federation to mount an effective campaign against them. Is this because a single corporation was not important enough? Perhaps the loss of some corporations will not damage the foundation of the Federation? What about the secession of a different corporation?
Not all corporations hold a planet in Luminaire system? And take with them several founding ethnicities? One of the chronicles mention that the Gallente feared that the Intaki and the Mannar would pack their stuff, as well: And sure, some Intaki joined the Caldari State, and some Intaki "troublemakers" were exiled into the Syndicate.
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It is clear that the Caldari RPers have a developed viewpoint and that there is not a well developed Federation perspective on the G-C War.
I wouldn't say that there isn't a well developed Federation perspective on the G-C War. I think rather that there are multiple developed perspectives on it, none of which has become socialized enough among Federation RPers to become the "perspective of reference" (quotes mine).
Will there ever come a time when there are enough Federation RPers agreeing on anything to create such a thing?1 Maybe.
1Myself included. I'm not an agreeable person.
Perhaps this is an interesting blurring of the divide between the OOC opinions of players regarding their interpretation or understanding of the PF for their chosen faction and the IC opinions of their characters from within those factions.
It's interesting that the Caldari RPers appear to present a relatively uniform coherant viewpoint while the Federation RPers express a wide range of differing views which in some cases can contradict those of others.
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It's interesting that the Caldari RPers appear to present a relatively uniform coherant viewpoint while the Federation RPers express a wide range of differing views which in some cases can contradict those of others.
As far as I know, there are opinional differences also among the Amarr, Minmatar, Caldari and even Intaki RPers, and as we're talking only about a handful of people, I wouldn't read much meaning to it. At some point in the past there must have been a couple of like-minded Caldari players who discussed these things through and now it has become a part of the official fanon. It's not a necessarily a negative thing that there are still open questions on the Federal side. There are players who like to construct coherent arguments and in many ways it's awesome that there are still aspects of the lore which haven't already been discussed and polished before our time.
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For comparison: see the recent debates about the Ammatar/Nefantar and Starkmanir among Matari characters (some even in the same alliance) on the IGS.
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I'm not an agreeable person.
I disagree.
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At some point in the past there must have been a couple of like-minded Caldari players who discussed these things through and now it has become a part of the official fanon.
Actually, rather than a group of Caldari Rpers meeting and then coming to a consensus privately - it's because Seri, Bloodbird and a few others have been re-posting or posting in this same thread for more than a couple years. Those Caldari RPers who regularly point out the same logical fallacies year after year have formed a loose cliche. I suppose we owe Seri something for that.
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At some point in the past there must have been a couple of like-minded Caldari players who discussed these things through and now it has become a part of the official fanon.
Actually, rather than a group of Caldari Rpers meeting and then coming to a consensus privately - it's because Seri, Bloodbird and a few others have been re-posting or posting in this same thread for more than a couple years. Those Caldari RPers who regularly point out the same logical fallacies year after year have formed a loose cliche. I suppose we owe Seri something for that.
I've been arguing the fed-side of the G-C war's start IC, repeatedly? I must have forgotten that, I can't recall even one case of arguing this IC, though I'm sure there is one somewhere - likely from the period right before, leading up to, or during the start of, FW.
I'm not sure I should be flattered or insulted that you claim I've helped repeatedly argue something IC to the point where the Caldari RP'ers collectively agree on their view-points regarding the topic - after all I think I've barely argued this two or three times (this being the second or third time) OOC.
If you recall examples of this I'd love links, if I have been arguing this in an IC-sense I'd like to remember it myself :eek:
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I said Caldari RPers, not characters. The last IC post of yours I bothered to read was your character jetcaning people into the sun.
Perhaps you posts are more memorable because of a frequent failure to understand what the other side is actually saying, combined with a rather intense vitriol.
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I said Caldari RPers, not characters. The last IC post of yours I bothered to read was your character jetcaning people into the sun.
Perhaps you posts are more memorable because of a frequent failure to understand what the other side is actually saying, combined with a rather intense vitriol.
... what? I've looked over my posts on the EVE-search site and did not find this anywhere. I can't recall having done it either so if you do please share a link.
As for the... vitriol - I'm not 100% sure what the word even means but I think I do, to that I've little to say besides the fact your entitled to our opinion. I'm not sure it's a deserved remark but then I likely will know once I'm more clear on exactly what you mean.
Or if your even thinking of me/my toon - the first remark here kind of produced a "what? When, Why? I don't even..." :eek: reaction. Would you bother to clarify?
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I said Caldari RPers, not characters. The last IC post of yours I bothered to read was your character jetcaning people into the sun.
Perhaps you posts are more memorable because of a frequent failure to understand what the other side is actually saying, combined with a rather intense vitriol.
Hamish, I don't think that was Bloodbird. :P
And BB, no offense, but your posts can, if read a certain way, sound somewhat, ah, confrontational? But then, so can mine, even when I don't intend it at all. So I try to read them without the red lenses on, so to speak.
I intensely disagree with the perception that the current "accepted" understanding of the C/G conflict is a Caldari one. I think it's pretty much the neutral stance, and I can very much attest that I have, ICly, had far more Caldari-favorable interpretation of the conflict than the standard model, and I honestly can't see a reason to try to avoid the (to me!) clear sense of such Chronicles as "Never Again" and so forth. The only explanation I can think of to try to mutate the meanings or explain them away is a desire to whitewash one faction at the expense of another.
But, I could be wrong about motivation. And even if I'm not wrong about that, I can still intensely disagree with others here without considering them to be "bad people" or terrible RPers. So I'm really trying to write with passion and argument, but also trying to remove spite and pettiness.
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From the Gallente angle, the genocide theory is problematic. If there had been a long history of hate and animosity between them and the Caldari, a large scale attack against civilians might be somewhat understandable but here it doesn't really seem to be that way. It all happened too fast. You need something with a shock value to sell this kind of maneuver to the populace, and all you have is a bunch of sudden appeals to culture etc which couldn't smell less like an excuse or cover-up.
The reaction of the Gallente population to the attempted genocide also seems to be nonexistent, and as others have pointed out, there are examples of peaceful secessions, and that there is something strange about the evacuation of the Caldari Prime. It's almost like there is something more going on here.
I don't have an issue with things being either way but as long as the claimed genocide has no motivation, I can't role-play my Gallente character that way without making stuff up. So to me, Seri's suggestion that Gallente government did not want genocide seems like a more neutral viewpoint, as it avoids the motivation issue.
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There has never been a case in a democratic society where the military pushed for terrible actions that didn't have wide popular support!
...oh wait.
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There has never been a case in a democratic society where the military pushed for terrible actions that didn't have wide popular support!
...oh wait.
And the military in these cases didn't have any motivation for doing so?
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From the Gallente angle, the genocide theory is problematic. If there had been a long history of hate and animosity between them and the Caldari, a large scale attack against civilians might be somewhat understandable but here it doesn't really seem to be that way. It all happened too fast. You need something with a shock value to sell this kind of maneuver to the populace, and all you have is a bunch of sudden appeals to culture etc which couldn't smell less like an excuse or cover-up.
Historically, this has not been true in most cases of genocide. Not only has it proven very easy for a government to inflict a genocide without the consent of the society as a whole, it's also been quite true that most governments have managed it without losing popular support. (Also, as far as shock value goes, that element has been provided: the bombing of a Gallente underwater city.)
Again, lets take the Holocaust: while there was a small amount of anti-Jewish feeling among some Germans, by and large, the vast majority of Germans did not desire to exterminate, or even oppress, the Jews. Indeed, as the allied war machine tore Germany apart, a common sentiment was that the destruction was a divine punishment for the treatment of the Jews. And yet Hitler retained popular support for quite some time in Germany, even though reports of the Holocaust were transmitted back to the Germans.
Stalin also managed a fairly popular genocide of his "own" people with the starvation of millions of peasant by conducting a propaganda campaign against them that depicted them as economic villains. The "Kulaks" were largely destroyed and the survivors were forced onto the collective farms, not only with the support of the urban populations of the U.S.S.R., but also with the support of foreign socialists and intellectuals.
Pol Pot managed a genocide in his own country that killed a good portion of Cambodia's total population, and didn't stop until a neighboring country decided they'd had enough of him. I don't presume to believe that the Cambodians hated themselves, but he managed it all the same.
Our perceptions of genocide are somewhat colored by our natural belief that one would need widespread hate and xenophobia to enact a genocide, but this has not historically been the case in many such instance. In the Balkans, with ethnic cleansing, and in Rwanda, yes, genocide is based upon mutual animosity. But in governments throughout history, a record of fear or hate has been entirely unnecessary as a beginning condition in the worst crimes.
So its not at all unlikely or unreasonable to uphold the common reading of the PF as demonstrating an attempt at genocide. And it needn't have been the desire of the Gallente government to completely extirpate the Caldari for it to have been a genocide. It wasn't Pol Pot's plan to completely wipe out the Cambodians, what he wanted was to force the country into a communist agrarian paradise. if such avowedly humane goals can be so productive of human death and suffering, it is hardly unlikely that the sentiments of the Gallente, portrayed in the PF, could not lead to far worse suffering (fortunately fictional).
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Or if your even thinking of me/my toon - the first remark here kind of produced a "what? When, Why? I don't even..." :eek: reaction. Would you bother to clarify?
I confused your character with the Redpants character for some reason. He was a Gallente character who wore blood stained pants or something.
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To me, the first Gallente-Caldari war was always due to economics and what might be considered a particularly Fascist/Nationalist mindset among Caldari. In many respects the Gallente Federation has very strong parallels to the old British Empire: Democracy at home and economic Imperialism abroad through its corporations and capitalism. Hell, I think most of Gallente corporations have the same level of political and social power as the East India Company did during the British Empire. Just look at Quafe negotiating with the Amarr at Giran-Fa on behalf of the Fed or the fact that Jacus Roden was able to overthrow President Foiritain when he threatened the Federal Military-Industry with nationalization.
When pieces of fiction state Caldari saying something along the lines of, "Odd isn't it how everything seems to benefit Gallente interests?" I tend to translate that into Gallente Economic Interests. The primary cause of conflict with the Caldari would have been the fact that to me, the Caldari do not make much distinction between their Megacorporations, the individual and national identity. They're all taken together. To them, Gallente Corporations acting in their own self-interests and using their army of lobbyists to get legislation passed in order to benefit themselves would have been perceived by the Caldari as an attempt at the Gallente (As a people and a nation) to oppress the Caldari (As a people and a nation). Whereas most Gallente may have viewed it as simply a few Caldari corporations upset over their inability to compete in a "Free Market." (Not really though, Gallente government/corporate collusion would have been a cause of lack of competition to many Caldari corporations).
Now would I say the first Gallente-Caldari war was a war of Liberation on the part of the Caldari? Yes. However, because the Caldari Megacorporations were also directly linked to the identity of the Caldari, what was primarily a conflict fought due to economic reasons also became an act of self-determination of the Caldari as a people and as a Nation. This is because the Caldari as a people have a very strong Fascist mindset which I'd describe as:
- A strong sense of collective identity based along nationalist/ethnic lines and shared history, culture and traditions.
- The use of that identity to create emotive and vitalist concepts of behaviour: "What it means to be Caldari."
- A concept of an individual only being a part of his People, the Nation as the representative of the People, and the State as the representative of the Nation. An expectation to subsume individual identity into that of the group and more specifically that of the Nation and the State. The emotive and vitalist aspects of nationalism are then used to give the State itself an almost spiritual or religious aspect.
- The concept of corporations as, "associations of associations" similar to how the State is an "association of associations" of individual, family, groups, people and Nation. Afforded the same sort of legitimacy over individuals as the State itself.
- Individual, people, Nation, culture, corporations and State are all taken as one under the concept of being, "Caldari."
- The concept of liberty only being used in the sense of the liberty of the people, Nation and State against external factors and not the liberty of the individual against the people, Nation and State.
- A strong sense of militarism and martial spirit - the "meritocratic tradition" espoused by the Caldari is to be found mostly in another form of organization: Armed Forces and the Military. (More particularly in a modern sense as meritocratic organization was a hallmark of Frederick the Great and the Prussian Army which has served as the basis for almost every modern Western Military.)
Which brings about another point: just as economic factors contributed to the First Caldari-Gallente war it was also a conflict of fundamental ideologies with the tenets of Gallentean liberalism and democracy opposed to Caldari nationalism and fascism. What is unfortunate is that when framed in that context it appears to portray the Gallente as the "Good Guys" and the Caldari as the "Bad Guys" in black and white terms due to modern history and bias. However, this is New Eden and I think every faction is bloody terrible from a modern western perspective and I certainly don't want to RP a Federalist that might as well be a Lawful Good Paladin smiting evil for Justice, Liberty and Democracy -- even if Mjalnar Gessenier certainly does know how to Lay his Hands on the ladies.
I much prefer playing a hypocritical corporate imperialist and damn arrogant Gallentean that goes around telling everyone their way of life is frankly terrible and that they should accept a free market model and allow Federal corporations into their lives so that they can engage in trade protectionism and subsidisation at home until no one else is able to compete and all of New Eden is united in their love of Quafe and overpriced Gallentean haute-couture made dirt cheap in some colonial sweatshop by immigrant Minmatar. I love it how it's only in the Federation they can engage in the most ruthless and cut-throat form of capitalism and the kind of government corruption it entails and still turn around and adjust their white hats and talk about Freedom and Democracy with a straight face. To me, the Federation is full of deep and fundamental dichotomies, and as to whether or not it is truly good or evil is simply a matter of in-character perspectives. That is what I find engaging about the Fed, so I'm always a bit ambivalent towards any sort of judgements that seek to portray it solely as either way when not in an in-game context.
Now, I've used the term Fascism to describe the Caldari mindset, and in many respects it does appear to fit as an ideology for the Caldari State. It is also in many respects a very loaded term in this day and age and brings about all sorts of unintended connotations because the Caldari State is the Caldari State and it's not Italy under Mussolini, Spain under Franco or Germany under Hitler. I've often had difficulty finding an alternative term to describe the Caldari mindset properly because I do know the subtle OOC subtext that arises if M. Gessenier levels the label of "fascism" against the State in his description of it IC. I personally don't find it fits in some cases regarding the Caldari and the State. I think there should be a Caldari/Napanii word for the particular ideological concepts the Caldari hold but damned if I can find it.
As for the allegations of genocide on the part of the Federation I think that's a matter up for debate and is more a matter of character perspective. It's understandable the Caldari may feel that way but an act of genocide would require a deliberate and premeditated systematic action aimed solely against the Caldari as an ethnicity and not as the citizens and armed forces of the State. The situation, I think, does not find its parallels in Armenia, Kosovo or Germany and the Holocaust but rather in the area bombardment of civilian targets aimed at breaking morale by the Allies during WW2; the fire-bombing of Tokyo or Dresden; and the dropping of atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This is not discounting the fact that the allegation may indeed be a rather hypocritical one of accusing one party of making tenuous assertions against a faction by also making a tenuous assertion, perhaps?
Anyway, meant to post something along these lines sooner but I was too busy grinding away towards a Patton and Lorraine 40t in WoT. Yes, I only drive French and American tanks. Sue me.
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I think there should be a Caldari/Napanii word for the particular ideological concepts the Caldari hold but damned if I can find it.
Heiian: This word cannot readily be translated, it is the concept of supreme loyalty over anything else to the State. It applies readily to military service but can be applied to any other work aiding the State.
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Pretty good write-up Gessenier and pretty solid, I also respect that you're not trying to make it a good-guy vs bad-guy thing. I've personally enjoyed Gessenier's input on IGS even if it makes Malcolm roll his eyes. :P
I've often described the Caldari STate as Corporate Communism. Not sure how accurate that is, but it seems to fit.
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I think there should be a Caldari/Napanii word for the particular ideological concepts the Caldari hold but damned if I can find it.
Heiian: This word cannot readily be translated, it is the concept of supreme loyalty over anything else to the State. It applies readily to military service but can be applied to any other work aiding the State.
Perhaps that is not a "good" definition of Heiian. Thinking about it now, it reads much as an outer sider might see it, the first translation in a bias piece of literature on the Caldari.
In the absence of jagii, the Caldari are not a united people under the State, far from it. The Caldari are ready to fight & compete with each other and only turn towards an outside threat when it is there.
Heiian might better be described as willingness to sacrifice self for the betterment of the community. For the early Caldari, Heiian demanded that a grandparent walk out into the snowy blizzard if a new child was born in the dead of winter. In the Gallente-Caldari War, Heiian demanded that Tovil-Toba and his fleet sacrifice themselves to buy the evacuation of Caldari Prime time.
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Glad you mentioned that about the meaning of the word regarding Heiian, Orange, as I happen to agree completely. But I'm not sure Tovil Toba is a good example, his sacrifice is highly debatable.
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Not specifically the final attack, but rather the week long campaign/battle was my thinking.
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Not specifically the final attack, but rather the week long campaign/battle was my thinking.
True that. Thanks for clarifying your meaning.
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Glad you mentioned that about the meaning of the word regarding Heiian, Orange, as I happen to agree completely. But I'm not sure Tovil Toba is a good example, his sacrifice is highly debatable.
In order to ensure the survival of his people he sacrificed his crew, his own life and committed an act he probably found morally repugnant. What's debatable?
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Glad you mentioned that about the meaning of the word regarding Heiian, Orange, as I happen to agree completely. But I'm not sure Tovil Toba is a good example, his sacrifice is highly debatable.
In order to ensure the survival of his people he sacrificed his crew, his own life and committed an act he probably found morally repugnant. What's debatable?
Here's an alternative for you;
To ensure the survival of the work-force needed to keep the Caldari corporate hegemony alive he kept the federals off for a week, lost all his ships in the progress, ended up losing his capital ship in the end, and, on the bring of dying anyway due to his ship exploding around him he said 'fuck it' and ordered the ship down on the planet, killing over 2 million people via capital-ship fragment impacting with city, for no reason than 'because I can' and pure, simple hatred.
He was lucky that it had a positive effect by forcing the U-nats out of office instead of polarizing support around them and instilling more gruesome means from the federal fleet.
- The above is an example of how his 'sacrifice' was debatable. Orange's assertion that his week-long campaign to keep the fed away is rather correct. However - Tovil's order to insert carrier into atmosphere was not in any way a sacrifice as it was likely a choice made out of spite and it carried an immense risk of making things infinity worse for the Caldari instead of better. His gamble paid off for him, though, and the Caldari remember him the greatest of heroes, the feds remember him as one of the lowest of mass-murderers.
Keep in mind this don't reflect how I'd phrase it or argue things it's meant as examples to underline a point made. Rather moot though as I simply meant to point out how Tovil's best known action might not 'count' as a great example of Heiian. There are other, more fitting examples.
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In order to ensure the survival of his people he sacrificed his crew, his own life and committed an act he probably found morally repugnant. What's debatable?
He was shot down and didn't have a choice.
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In order to ensure the survival of his people he sacrificed his crew, his own life and committed an act he probably found morally repugnant. What's debatable?
He was shot down and didn't have a choice.
He had all the choice in the world regarding the carrier-insertion. He had no choice in being regarded by the Caldari as a hero - after all he was mortally wounded when his ship was in the process of being destroyed after of week of skirmishing with the fed navy. Rather impressive, so far.