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Author Topic: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...  (Read 5236 times)

kalaratiri

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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #16 on: 18 Mar 2013, 12:47 »

Honestly, Europe has been through worse things than the bank system failing and people not trusting it anymore. Also, we have been already through a breakdown of said system and through people not trusting the banks anymore.

vOv

It's not the end of the world, really.
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Iwan Terpalen

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #17 on: 18 Mar 2013, 13:17 »

Doesn't mean it won't be a shit and a bore, though.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #18 on: 18 Mar 2013, 13:57 »

As much as I share most people dislike for banks overall, I am not really at ease with the alarmist tone of this thread either.

Last news told about account less than 20k remaining untouched, until it gets voted. It's still not good, but the constant delaying in the vote shows that every got blown out of proportion pretty fast.

Waiting to see what will really happen in the end.


Note : also, the Euro losing value to the dollar is probably one of the best thing Europe has been waiting for for the last decade. I don't think people will complain when it will boost export on the long run. It just makes me a sad consumer that used to buy cheap dollar stuff.
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Kyoko Sakoda

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #19 on: 18 Mar 2013, 14:14 »

Here's an easy-to-understand and brilliant history-doc on how/why we are where we are now:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/ascentofmoney/

It does take a pseudo-political stance once and a while, but doesn't get sentimental about it. If you can get past the insinuations, the program is quite interesting.

As a cultural analyst by education, I find the meta-ideological history of capitalism fascinating.
« Last Edit: 18 Mar 2013, 14:15 by Kyoko Sakoda »
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Vikarion

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #20 on: 18 Mar 2013, 14:49 »

Beware of trusting any financial news services or networks - or financial news from mainstream sources. They are usually full of shit, and by the time you learn of something, it's almost always too late to do anything about it.

As to the bank thing, yeah, it's actually not too big of a deal in and of itself. The problem is that markets are a confidence game (not in the conman sense, but in the sense of relying on trust to work). So, you don't actually need people to even think it's a terrible thing for it to put stress on the system. All you need is for people to think that other people might think Cyprus to be a terrible thing.

There are two major problems with western capitalism at the moment. The first is that, in the financial sector, what is going on isn't capitalism. It is best described as an incredibly intricate social networking game where money is the score for who is winning. At this point, what goes on in Wall Street, London, Tokyo, and etc. has virtually nothing to do with how many tractors Caterpillar made last year, or if Airbus is selling a lot of jets this year. The companies (a term best used loosely when applied to Wall Street) that are involved with financial markets as a primary business have essentially become giant wallet-filling machines by creating an enormous amount of opaque transactions that they skim a little off of for the service of creating them.

I could really go into that, and will if anyone invites me to, but in general, what we have are some entities whose entire focus and motivation is to create an incredibly complex and hard to understand tangle of nearly infinite transactions, expanded every day. These systems tend to be, uh, vulnerable to a lack of confidence, since no one person can possibly comprehend even a sector of it. Oh, and one of the primary things being traded around? Debt. Government debt, city debt, company debt, mortgage debt, credit card debt...

I'm fairly libertarian, so this isn't coming from a leftist, but these people, in my opinion, are a menace.

The other big problem we have is that governments in western countries spend like drunken sailors with poor impulse control. In Keynsian terms, we should be enacting government spending programs during the bust years, and saving during booms. Instead, what we have been doing is spending during the boom years, and spending more during the busts. Whereas a reasonable keynsian approach would even out the pain and pleasure, instead we pump up booms, which increases the inevitable bubbles, and we use up all our money.

Although it is true that a government can run a permanent debt without any problems - and possibly should - what a government cannot do is permanently increase its debt. At some point, the interest on the bonds it sells will be more than it takes in by taxation and state-run enterprises (which tend to suck as revenue generators anyway, though not always), in which case you are fucked.

In this case, suppose Cyprus rejects the bailout thanks to popular outrage? Well, it might go something like this:

Cyprus's credit rating is downgraded, to junk, leaving many entities (like, say, hedge funds or other institutions) with worthless bonds. They have to report these losses to their own investors. These investors get scared, and start pulling money out. This loss of capital means that the funds (or whoever) need to sell other bonds (say, of other European countries) to raise capital, since their loss of investors means that the banks are less willing to lend to them. Some of these entities are able to sell their bonds, while others fail, but the mass sale drops the confidence in those bonds that were sold. Those bonds were naturally the weakest the funds thought they could get rid of, and so those weaker countries now have trouble selling more bonds to prop up their debt. Soon, one of them can no longer afford to offer the higher interest payments now necessary to entice investors to take on the risk of a default. It defaults in turn, and wheeeeeee, here we go, as the cycle picks up speed. And I haven't even mentioned all the really fun stuff like collateral calls, credit default swaps, and so forth, that basically tie everyone together in this giant game of lemmings.

The really fun fact is that all of the above can happen even if Cyprus doesn't actually default, but people think they will.
« Last Edit: 18 Mar 2013, 15:45 by Vikarion »
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hellgremlin

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #21 on: 18 Mar 2013, 16:02 »

Well, my family isn't waiting to see how this unfolds. My folks are getting their European assets the hell out of Europe, they've been on the phone with assorted wranglers of money all day. Those of us still living there are also taking this very seriously, opening "just in case" accounts in the US.

The last time something like this happened, we got the great depression, and the ones who were first in line to gain complete control of their funds were the ones who made it through relatively intact. The ones who waited got boned. I'd recommend anyone affected (as in, in Europe or with money there) do the same.

Doesn't cost anything to be cautious. It could cost everything to wait.
« Last Edit: 18 Mar 2013, 16:05 by hellgremlin »
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Vikarion

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #22 on: 18 Mar 2013, 16:43 »

Wait? Oh no, nothing in my post was meant to be about waiting. I dumped some securities myself today, which, so far, has proven to be a profitable move. I'm not sure that I would go whole hog on divesting all things European-related, but, I certainly don't keep money in Europe, so I'm not sure I'm one to recommend much.

One thing to think about is what this might do to the Russians who keep their money there, too. Will they yank their funds out, or consider them sunk costs? What will happen to the businesses those Russians fund, since they now have less capital? Will Russian bonds or securities tank in a sympathetic move because no one knows how much they got burned? If they do yank all their funds, or even a good percentage, goodbye Cyprus. And why would they keep them in there, now that they see all this happening?

What's really fun about this is that Cyprus is essentially taxing citizens and depositors to save the banks, who need saving because they invested in the debt of countries like Greece, who thought they could fund a massive welfare state on debt alone.

EDIT: Haha, Caa2 rating on the BoCyprus. Guess Moody's can actually have some balls when it's someone who isn't paying them. (Hope that's not offensive to anyone, feel free to trim if I went over a line, mods.) It'll take a day or two to see if depositors in Italy, Spain, and etc start yanking cash. If they do, I'll bet you it starts in Spain and Greece, especially Greece.

Anyway, Russian stocks ARE down, amongst other things, so it's time to start looking at who has exposure to Russia. This isn't my area of expertise - I tend to focus on American companies - but it'd be a lot of fun to know how much exposure other European banks have to Russian funds. Wouldn't it be ironic if those banks are located in PIIGS? :-P

EDIT2: Oh, this is awesome. Do you know who one of the top investors in Russia is? Cyprus! Hah! At least according to the docs I could find in 5 minutes. And Russian banks are tied up in Cyprus. This has some real potential.
« Last Edit: 18 Mar 2013, 17:11 by Vikarion »
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #23 on: 18 Mar 2013, 17:16 »

Do you know who one of the top investors in Russia is? Cyprus! Hah! At least according to the docs I could find in 5 minutes. And Russian banks are tied up in Cyprus. This has some real potential.

There was a thing about this on the radio. Cyprus being one of the top investors in Russia is an artifact of Russian money going into the Cyprus banks. It goes into Cyprus, and comes back out, and is somehow then counted as foreign investment, making Cyprus appear as being a top investor, even though it's really Russian money that's being invested.

It's a bit :psyduck:
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Vikarion

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #24 on: 18 Mar 2013, 17:23 »

Do you know who one of the top investors in Russia is? Cyprus! Hah! At least according to the docs I could find in 5 minutes. And Russian banks are tied up in Cyprus. This has some real potential.

There was a thing about this on the radio. Cyprus being one of the top investors in Russia is an artifact of Russian money going into the Cyprus banks. It goes into Cyprus, and comes back out, and is somehow then counted as foreign investment, making Cyprus appear as being a top investor, even though it's really Russian money that's being invested.

It's a bit :psyduck:

Oh yeah, it's pretty obvious that Cyprus doesn't actually own all that money. But to get their money back, the Russians will have to pull it out of Cyprus, who will pull it out of Russia, and how much of that money might be invested in those Russian businesses trying to pull it out? Or, for even more fun, how much of that money Cyprus sent back to Russia was then eventually banked in Cyprus again?
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Vikarion

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #25 on: 18 Mar 2013, 18:05 »

Ok, so now, apparently, some people in Germany are talking about doing the same thing in Italy: http://www.liberoquotidiano.it/news/economia/1206396/Commerzbank---Patrimoniale-del-15--sui-conti-correnti-italiani-.html

So yeah. I'd be sticking my money in Germany or the U.S., if I hadn't already. Or China. I don't think they'll actually go through with it, but just the rumor could create significant stresses. This was an epic-ly stupid move. 
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #26 on: 18 Mar 2013, 19:16 »

gj guys gj.

This could spiral out of control fast and leave half of Europe completely impoverished, very very not good.

I'm just glad the US economy is still trending upwardsish right now.
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Jade Constantine

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #27 on: 18 Mar 2013, 19:28 »

 
And my friends wonder why I spent all my filthy contractor lucre on giant televisions, crazy gaming computers and sets of reenactment armor - having already bought my house I really don't see the point of keeping money in the bank! (and I certainly don't trust "pension plans" - at this point I suspect its going to be pseudo hand to mouth work till I die, might as well buy some stupid luxuries before the fiscal apocalypse and it goes all mad max on us.)

/European perspective
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #28 on: 18 Mar 2013, 19:39 »

I think it's kind'a interesting that all the US Americans seem to be more worried about what happens in Europe than the Europeans themselves. Really, guys, keep some cool. This isn't the end of the world, nor of Europe.
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Vikarion

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Re: Europeans, time to cut holes in your mattresses...
« Reply #29 on: 18 Mar 2013, 20:06 »

I think it's kind'a interesting that all the US Americans seem to be more worried about what happens in Europe than the Europeans themselves. Really, guys, keep some cool. This isn't the end of the world, nor of Europe.

As heartless as this seems, I'm not worried. I find it somewhat entertaining, or maybe just fascinating. As for the end of the world, no, it's not that.

On the other hand? I do know enough about the financial system and financial products to be very, very, very worried about what happens next bubble. There seems to be a perception among some that the 2008 crisis was "solved", or that the Obama administration has tightened down on the sort of activities that led to it. The reality is that the Obama Treasury may actually be easier on the big banks than the Bush one, that the big banks just relocate anything the Americans prohibit to Europe or Asia, and that no substantive changes in behavior have been made by these institutions, at all.

Current derivatives exposure by the nine largest banks is roughly 200-300 trillion dollars. Now, that's a deceptively high number, since almost no circumstance could occur in which even a large fraction of that would be owed (much of it, for example, would be derivatives that would be compensated for by other derivatives, thus essentially "cancelling out" losses). Unfortunately, even a small fraction of 200-300 trillion dollars is a lot more than these banks have in capital.

I could go into why the risk+hedging strategy doesn't work to make these products risk-less, but frankly, it doesn't matter for most people. The simple fact is that, having been bailed out in 2008, most of these banks are busily ensuring that they will never be bailed out again - by accumulating so much potential exposure that if things ever do go seriously wrong again, no government in the world, or all of them together, will be able to afford putting them right.

EDIT: So, I saw a stat: that 79% of investors don't trust the banks. This means that 21% of investors have a bit to learn. Seriously, you cannot trust financial statements from banks. They are allowed to hide most of their risky or dirty stuff in off-balance sheet entities that they are still responsible for, and they have tons of loopholes and flat-out inadequacies in their reporting environments. I can't recommend that others avoid them, especially as they may be somewhat undervalued at the moment, but I will say that I do avoid them.
« Last Edit: 18 Mar 2013, 20:12 by Vikarion »
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