Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Laerise [PIE] on 18 Apr 2010, 17:40
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Okay, here's one thing that confuses the hell out of me.
If I were to totally disregard my ingame experience and go by the stuff I read on public forums...
Why the heck is more than 50% of the whole capsuleer community either ex-spec-ops, run-away slaves, had their parents killed by amarr/minmatar/gallente/caldari/orcs ?
Is it just a personal misconception because these examples burn themselves into my mind like a red hot iron poker, I'm confused :cry:
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Well, I ended up in Spec-Ops because that was the button I clicked during char-gen.
My mother is still alive, (though dad died in the wars) if that helps, and I visit the clan lands fairly frequently, including occasionally taking people I've met in space to visit.
And apparently someone made an offer to the aunties to marry me off...
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Ever played Dungeons and Dragons? Well, I'd say about 80% of new DnD players wanna be an elven ranger who's uber with a bow. This is mainly because so many heroic characters in novels from the fantasy genre are elves. Who use bows. And can clip your sister's tampon strings at 200 yards while she's wearing pants. :legolas:
I think the EVE version of that is players who are new to EVE and/or new to RP in general go for commonly romanticized sci-fi character archetypes based on the tiny bit of backstory presented to them during the initial chargen process.
That's not to say that NO experienced RPer makes a 'run-away slave' character, mind, just that it seems to be a more common choice among newcomers for the reasons mentioned.
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I wonder whether any group of RPers doesn't have that sort of isssue. That includes the whole spectrum, such as those who don't consider themselves "lolrpers" but have something resembling an IC background for their characters.
For the record, Casi is the daughter of a Sebiestor bureaucrat and more-or-less stay-at-home mom, but that may not be entirely relevant. ;)
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I don't have parents because I was grown in a tube. :cry:
+2 for Spec-ops via character creation for me and another of my characters, though. Silver used to fly for spec ops teams, getting them on the ground and whatnot, though. He runs like a sissy from actual in-person fighting. The other character doesn't much fly, and is terrible at it, and her job entails having those spec-op skills to draw on, so I think that works out?
I would agree that a lot of people go with the archetypes they know. Plus, everyone wants to be the hero of the story.
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He runs like a sissy from actual in-person fighting.
I tend to play Havo the same way in terms of fist fights. He's a capsuleer, a competent combat pilot, not a genetically engineered super soldier space marine golden gloves boxing karate master. I often tease that our character sheets are lacking physical attributes for a reason :P
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Given the wealth and power of capsuleers, plus the chron in which Tibus Heth's violent past gets circular filed by a Caldari news organization, I'd assume that capsuleers have personal security staffs for use in some situations, at least outside the station levels reserved for them.
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I vaguely remember the original character generation (or the revised one a few expansions ago anyway) listing Misan as special ops. That said, I tried to avoid drawing on it for on the ground things, and instead consider it as describing the training she received during her time in the RMS. So more about flying covert or agile ships, not the SWAT/SEAL style stuff. She does have some physical combat proficiency, but more because of the Thukker upbringing and self-reliance angle of that.
Both of Misan's parents are alive and well, by the way.
In my own personal experience I haven't seen those character types that frequently, but I agree with what has already been said about the tendency to go with recognized archetypes.
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Seriphyn's backstory has been retconned more times than I like to admit, but yeah, I agree with what people have said here; everyone wants to be the hero, and being raped by Amarrians when you were younger gives you a great framework to hate them when you grow up.
I think Seriphyn started...I can't remember, he wasn't very fleshed out but very Mary Sue as extension of myself. Was new to RP I guess, the chat style...but yeah, he's an aggressive, violent egomaniac character that can subdue and hide the egomania to be replaced with humility and bashfulness if he wants to, while his parents are alive and well, and in frequent contact. Just took me 2 years to get something like that, heh.
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Dear Laerise,
Common tropes are all too often shit, and it is the role of the wider community to educate newcomers that some tropes are common enough and could use avoiding for a bit.
Also, both the arch-liberal character type (mine) and the arch-conservative character type (yours) act and talk a lot like a common trope.
While common tropes can be redeemed by execution, and I am prepared to say that we redeem the ones we draw on okay when we're at the top of our respective games, the only way to curb shitty execution is through education. It's the only silver bullet we've got left in the bandoleer.
-Ashar, circa late 2006.
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[deleted]
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Most of them just are chargen options.
Like Cyberknight. :roll:
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Even with the chargen options you could make a whole lot of interesting mixes, specially now when there's no minmaxing involved. Khanid Cyberknight trader? Civire Mercenary courier? Gallente (Martial) Artist? And, um, whatever ancestry the slaves have, I'm not a breeder.
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One ex-slave reporting in.
Honestly, I didnt really design Gottii for RP. I wasnt sure I was ever going to arrrpee in EvE, It really wasnt what caught my eye in the game originally. Even the name wasnt exactly what I would have picked for an RP character.
Basically, I picked Slave Child cus I knew I wanted to be a combat toon, and it gave me bonuses to Per and Will. I tried hard to be an Achura male, but I couldnt really look myself in the eye. And, really, the sunglasses won me over.
So, when I decided to RP eventually, I kinda had to throw together a character and personality from the toon I had to work with. It was something of an RP exercise, but one Ive enjoyed for the most part.
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Cia is not at all risk friendly, but as for stereotypes ...
In my defense, she didn't start out with such a terrible childhood ... eldest daughter of a diplomat and heir to an old established family on her home planet, and a former non-capsuleer pilot who tested into the capsuleer program when it started. Initially I never meant for her 'missing father' storyline to be resolved: Jorion Roth/ Evarion Yates, I thought, would be her 'white whale' - and provide me with an excuse to have her talk IC to all sorts of people.
It worked like a charm, but I found my ability to invent new reasons he couldn't be located/recovered couldn't outstrip the inventive ways Vikarion, Silver, Celes, Istvaan, Math'ra, Garion and others came up with to find him.
I also made a decision as a player, starting out in Eve, to say 'yes' to just about every RP opportunity that came up, which meant I had t play Cia as a character who'd go along with things a ... sensible ... person wouldn't. I made her quite naive and trusting, and not at all assertive, and then had to work out just what kind of background would produce a person like that. It was around then her mother became the famous society beauty Cia couldn't live up to or meet the expectations of, and her father became the Jorion Roth we all love to hate ...
Other characters ... trained ones: one ex-marine pilot, who actually started as a no-skills RP alt marine working for Cia; Camille, Cia's little sister, whose skills are limited to market trading; an ex-slave who doesn't have any complaints about slavery; a Blood Raider who is definitely not an emo vampyre; and an ex-military planetside transport pilot who likes redheads and beer.
No-skill RP alts: one caldari marine; one Gallente tabloid reporter; one Intaki priestess who occasionally preaches in local; a free Minamatar psychiatrist, an Amarr doctor, a Gallente doctor with a drug habit, a Gallente engineer with a drinking problem (now deceased); and a Gallente policeman.
With the exception of Cia (and the Blood Raider) they all have a pretty normal background, family wise.
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Bah, I should have been more specific in the OP :D
Yes, all the points outlined above are correct.
There was the time when CyberKnight yes/no just meant that you'd save x months of training to get to a certain degree of PVP versality!
What I was wondering about, apart from the background issue, is why podders decide to put themselves in substantial danger of instant death and/or final death.
This includes a lot of my FW folks who are aparently more than happy to run around in a warzone, with armed troops everywhere, just to enjoy the scenerey / rescue some slaves / etc. .
Yes, of course, "I'm a spaceship captain" isn't exactly the most genre breaking role thats out there, but, come on, sometimes we're really pushing it.
P.S.: This is mostly an ooc gripe I have, I agree that sometimes you have to throw logic into the wind to have some fun, heck even I did it once in a while.
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You're still not really coming out as clear in what you are wanting out of the discussion.
You have a problem with pod pilots acting like they're immortal and risking lives of their crews on a whim?
The fact that they tend to have similarities in the archetypes they represent?
Their choices of priorities differ from yours?
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Alright, trying to get this through as quick as I can before I have to head off.
I don't have a problem with anything, it just confuses the logical part of my mind to no end that these pseudo-immortals seem to go for the kick of having their feet actually touch ground in completely unsafe locations (like, for example warzones) and/or go out and about for personal combat in an area where a single lucky shot actually -will- definetly kill them forever.
I'd like to find out if this is just a misconception of my own (i.e. I'm taking a very few examples of this behaviour for granted in the population at large), or, in extension of this, if this behaviour is actually emergent from IC motivations or if it's because people get a tad bored with being "just joe immortal spaceship captain".
Examples of such behaviour include:
-Pod pilots going on a solo (!) covert mission to steal something from another capsuleers heavily defended home.
- Pod pilots stretching their legs on planets in systems that have been 'captured' mere hours ago by their faction.
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Ahh, so its about how people portray their characters acting outside the pod.
I think I have the right answer for this.
It is because all of the characters in EVE are Mary Sues.
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Yes, I find that a little confusing too ... it is easier/more fun to RP your character doing something than their massive security force doing it, unless you're an alt-a-holic like me.
Some characters have convincing reasons to be more physical, IMO, since pod piloting has been around for not that long and many older characters would have a previous background that might well include military or similar training. Perhaps they miss the physical activity?
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1. Overconfidence.
2. Cabin fever. They've heard and heard and heard about the security risks.
3. Stupidity. Capsuleers are capsuleers because they can avoid mindlock and pass college exams, not because they're wise.
4. The very real capacity of these people to hire thousands to hundreds of thousands of troops and crew to make a location safe.
5. The technology to bring the dead back to life. It's been argued and proven and made canon that there's ways to grow a clone out of pod; they'd have a hold in their memory and a lot of complications in their lives, but they wouldn't be dead, in the strictest sense.
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Well, my reason for going for the "Amazing Adventures!" because there is only so much conniving and looking grimdark, washing the dishes, going shopping and drinking absinthe at the Last Gate you can do before it turns, well, really boring :D
Secondly IC reason is that Vince is reckless. He acts on a whim and he wants to feel alive, to feel human, and he is a firm believer of "We all die someday, why not live little until we do?".
Granted going out there doing dangerous exciting stuff that could get you killed isn't particularly logical or realistic for the characters of stature, but, it is fun.
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If we're talking about capsuleers taking unnecessary risks out-of-pod, then yeah, I'm sure we can handwave plenty of reasons why they would do so. Having that degree of backup would lend itself to a certain sense of ennui I would think. In space, I am nigh on immortal. Elsewhere, the thrill of vulnerability calls to me like the siren's song.
If we're talking about why so many people choose to mostly write about out-of-pod experiences when they write about their characters, or Eve in general, then I think there are a couple of major reasons. First, we're all very familiar with what happens in space because that's the game we play(ed). Why write about it? What more can you add? Second, pod pilots are inherently dull. In space, there's nothing at stake. Barely any dramatic tension at all. You have to work hard to make a reader give a crap about the character. While conceptually interesting and essential from a gameplay POV, the clone sucks the natural drama out of anything that takes place in a spaceship.
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Well, I would say its two things, maybe a combination of them.
In real life, I come from a line a fighter pilots actually, from my grandfather on down. And I had a chance to serve (and party) with a number of pilots when I was attached to an air wing. All of this kinda taught me one thing.
Fighter pilots do really dumb things.
The same reasons that drives them to push their aircraft are the same reasons you dont want them driving your car. Their risk takers by nature, moreover, they need it. Theyre sharks, constantly having to move or they feel like theyre dying.
So, on a whole, capsuleers would come from that same vein. Theyre all combat pilots on some level, or at least most of the pilots we tell stories about are. They would need that rush, that risk. Its just how they function.
(cue carebear/high-sec/miner joke here...im speaking as far as RPs go, not the reality of the EVE game)
Now, take those pilots who need that risk to feel like theyre alive, then tell them they cant die in combat. Now, you've taken that edge away from them, that adrenaline rush. Theyve got to find it somewhere.
Basically, a fighter pilot suffering from existential ennui is going to do really, really, really risky behavior just to feel like theyre still the people they were.
Edit: Also, what Wanoah said
Last Edit: Also, take the above personality type, then make them live for centuries. I think our characters are all gonna go bat shit crazy, and end up taking the kind of risks that made the scene from "The Deerhunter" seem reasonable.
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Last Edit: Also, take the above personality type, then make them live for centuries. I think our characters are all gonna go bat shit crazy, and end up taking the kind of risks that made the scene from "The Deerhunter" seem reasonable.
People keep saying that, but there's only been pod-pilots for less than 10 years.
I mean, doctors don't even like predicting the long-term effects of some surgery or drugs because we haven't had enough of them around for long enough time to see the potential long term effects. And we've had some of them for decades.
So to me, calling pod-pilots immortal is like people saying CD-ROMs will last forever, before we'd had them long enough to tell that they break down chemically after 15 years....
What the long term psychological issues will be for pod-pilots seems complete conjecture, although current evidence is for a certain amount of narcisitic risk taking...
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As I understand it (and perhaps somebody recalls the details from Jovian Wetgrave better than I do), the Jovians have had this tech for considerably longer. That's not to say, of course, that they might have some specific difference in their genetics that will end up causing major problems down the road for capsuleers.
But for certain, they've had the tech at least since the Minmatar Rebellion, because their defeat of the Amarrians served as a catalyst for said rebellion, IIRC.
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Well, as far as my recollection of PF goes: Cloning and pod tech have both been around for a while (toward the end of the Caldari-Gallente war, for pod tech). It is the combination of the two that makes pod pilots like our characters 'special' and that wasn't publicly released until about 7 years ago (and might have been available to governments for some unknown time before that, but still comparatively new.)
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It's true, stereotypes can be annoying. Sometimes there are good reasons though.
I decided to buck the "my parents are dead" trend. I did decide to have Arnulf's mother die. However it was from natural causes. I had a originally decided that his father was in the Republic Fleet Marines and that, when Arnulf went into the RMS, was a senior NCO. I was more-or-less thinking in terms of the story of "An Officer & A Gentleman."
His parents taught him all about personal responsibility and discipline. So he keeps up with his close combat and marksmanship training as a form of same. Challenge him to a duel and you'll be invited to present yourself at a suitable station with your hand to hand weapon of choice. He doesn't consider it reasonable to expect crew to defend his personal honour so he doesn't ship-duel. He's also more than slightly disdainful of tournaments that involve blowing up the larger ship classes, but that's incidental to this discussion.
The existence of jump clones implies that brain scans can be done on a slow burn, without destroying the brain they are taken from. Therefore persona backups and re-cloning after out of pod death are reasonable assumptions. So are any jump clone trained pilots being suicidal even if they get into an out of pod dangerous situation?
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Particularly given that Zainou's CEO was the "first" to upload his consciousness into a computer, I don't even know that we always have to have physical bodies. A station trader in Jita well might not.
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Katla's parents were killed, but she's forgotten all about that by now.
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In Nooey's words, there's enough in the PF to justify a capsuleer acting as if he or she has an indefinite lifespan, as opposed to clinical immortality.
The difference is voluminous, but can still account for a lot of overconfidence.
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Hell, look at 18-year-olds today. It's not unreasonable to think that the adolescent lack of a sense of mortality (thus leading to all sorts of risky behaviors) could include our favorite demigods.
Plus, I've always just sort of assumed that this whole thing stemmed from a rather transparent attempt just to shoehorn game mechanics into some semblance of congruity with the real world.