Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Silver Night on 21 May 2010, 10:47
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Now seems like pretty appropriate time to start the topic. Sansha's Nation is seen by many as a monolithic sort of thing, even more than nearly any other faction. What do you think about unusual or outside-the-box ways to RP as a member of, or maybe splinter group from, this faction?
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For a while, Casi was in Vikarion's White Rose Society, hoping to learn more about the Nation and possibly become a reformist. I think there's lots of room for Sansha splinter factions who endorse the Dream for individuals who choose to join and be "uplifted" of their own free will.
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I don't view pre-war Sansha's Nation as particularly monolithic, actually, because I never got the impression there was much of a rigid social structure between the leader and the masses, and creativity and intellectual pursuits were actively encouraged.
The Nation we see in the events does of course seem to be monolithic in the extreme, but then again, what we're seeing is the Nation's military, not (the scattered remains of) its civilian population.
I personally believe it's perfectly feasible to have a widely varied range of loyalists and sympathizers aligned with the Nation. Of course, seeing as one of my characters is a Sansha loyalist and Esoterian native running a gothic-cyberpunk-comedy-noir orphanage, I'm highly biased. :D
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Considering anything unborg-like is out of the norm, I'd say its not too hard to play outside the box here. ;)
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Silver is a proponent (more public about it when he was in Naqam) of a revitalized Nation (for a certain value of 'Nation'). I'll try and see if I can find a post where he sets most of it out sometime soon if I can. Probably in one of his debates with Aria.
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Mike Azariah > Any of the Sansha reps willing to face a few questions? I promise none are asking for delicate information
Mike Azariah > Nor am i trying to open a debate or convince you of the error of your ways
Mike Azariah > *grins
Nola Doyle > What sort of questions do you have, Mike?
Mike Azariah > *jumps
Mike Azariah > I thought y'all were ignoring me
Nola Doyle > Yes I'm addressing you Mike Azariah.
Mike Azariah > Okay first question, when did you join the nation
Ryanqzqz > *settles in a chair and pulls up ship schematics
Nola Doyle > I haven't joined the Nation.
snake driver > That would explain a lot.
Svetlana Scarlet > You joined Blackheart's corp, you might as well have.
Nola Doyle > We founded it together.
Svetlana Scarlet > Then you will suffer her same fate.
Nola Doyle > Touching.
Nola Doyle > Did I throw a wrench into your proverbial gears, Mr. Azariah?
Mike Azariah > No, sorry I just was not aware you considered yourself a founding member
Mike Azariah > so you were around when the Anation was driven into hiding the last timne they tried this and the True Slave project was made public?
Nola Doyle > It's not something I 'consider'. Lillith and I were present at its formation.
Nola Doyle > The Nation was destroyed over 105 years ago. I wasn't even born then.
Mike Azariah > ah, that was why I was pausiong. I misunderstood you when you said you have been a part of it since the beginning
Nola Doyle > No I meant NeuroGEN. My apologies for not being clearer.
Mike Azariah > *shrugs, no harm no foul
Ryanqzqz > Apology accepted.... Captain Nola.
Ryanqzqz > *snickers
Mike Azariah > How do you expect the current conflict between the Nation and the rest of new Eden to end?
Nola Doyle > *smirks.
Nola Doyle > Well.
Ryanqzqz > *mumbles.. "Not in an explosion of goddamn pixie dust, that's for sure..."
Nola Doyle > I'm afraid I don't have a crystal ball or far sight.
Mike Azariah > I asked your expectations, nothing more
Nola Doyle > I expect CONCORD to continue to blunder through this.
Nola Doyle > The simple lack of support from the Empires show how little they care for their own people.
Nola Doyle > I hope for many things but I don't expect much change from the status quo amongst the 'Empires'.
Nola Doyle > They have left the defense of their Nations to mercenaries and cutthroats. Are they truly deserving to lead?
Nola Doyle > Or to even exist?
Nola Doyle > And you wonder why there are those sympathetic to a change.
snake driver > *listens somewhat more intently, though the sounds of combat is coming through from the background
Nola Doyle > I'm done speaking. *frowns*
Nola Doyle > (on this question)
Lairelia > hahaha!
Mike Azariah > you have explained motivations, but not how you expect it to end
Mike Azariah > but if you say you are done, let us move on
Ryanqzqz > Shall i rephrase more bluntly Mike's question? I think he's asking if you expect to blow us all up and collect our remains for conversion into a New Eden of toasters.
Victoria Stecker > So much for "this won't be easy"
Nola Doyle > I know the question and your expectations.
Nikilaiki Ruutarhara > *smiles.
snake driver > *nods to Niki > welcome.
Ryanqzqz > Well? A yes or no will do...
Nola Doyle > Maybe.
Nola Doyle > We'll see.
Lairelia > yes or no. there are no maybes!
Nola Doyle > A room full of black and white. What a surprise. *smirks*
Nikilaiki Ruutarhara > They do not see.
Ryanqzqz > Do you not believe that your... master... will succeed?
Ryanqzqz > Surely you don't doubt him...
Mike Azariah > I apologise, i said i would not turn this into a cross examination, but I was only speaking for myslef
Nola Doyle > Don't place words in my mouth, Ryan.
Ryanqzqz > I wasn't anywhere near your mouth???? Eeww!
Nola Doyle > *grins.
Lairelia > dont make me come over there nola and pod your a$$
Mike Azariah > *chuckles
Nola Doyle > *smiles.
Victoria Stecker > *laughs > Words aren't what he wants to place in your mouth.
Nikilaiki Ruutarhara > Such aggression.
Mike Azariah > I knew you'd go there, Vickie
Victoria Stecker > *shrugs > If you lob it over the plate, I'll swing.
Julianus Soter > Ah, Victoria Stecker.
Mike Azariah > If you could speak to a wider audience than this, Nola, what would you tell them to convince them to come over to the Nations side of the conflict?
Nola Doyle > *grins.
Mike Azariah > *nods
Nola Doyle > If they need to be convinced they aren't allies of mine.
snake driver > Eh, some of us might not take much convincing to come to your side *elbows Ryan*
Nola Doyle > If the Nation continues to thrive and grow, the incentive to switch sides will become obvious for many of the opportunists that cling to your Coalition.
Ryanqzqz > *laughs
Sophie Starsparrow > Nola's correct. We've seen it.
Nola Doyle > *smiles.
Mike Azariah > If the nation continues to thrive and grow do you expect the quiescent masses of capsuleers not yet involved to just stay out of the way untilo it is their turn?
Nola Doyle > CONCORD has bought your incentive with promise of bounties.
Sophie Starsparrow > pfff
Nola Doyle > Consider the millions that suffer under the tyranny of capsuleer nations in the outer reaches.
Victoria Stecker > Nah, the bounties just pay for the ships I lose. I'd still kill you even if I had to wrok a side job to do it.
Sophie Starsparrow > Who give's a shit about bounties? I want to blow up toasters
Nola Doyle > Consider how many have died in your border wars.
Nola Doyle > They have far exceeded any numbers the Nation have liberated.
Nola Doyle > And yet...you have done nothing.
Ryanqzqz > I have yet to claim any bounty.
Victoria Stecker > I do, and it makes me sing, but you're probably not talking to me.
Ryanqzqz > I just like flying.
Nola Doyle > Don't hide behind morality- this is opportunity.
Ryanqzqz > Well.. and shooting.
Dex Nederland > Actually; we have done plenty... namely killing more of the other side
Nola Doyle > Congratulations Mr. Nederland. You've proven my point superbly.
Dex Nederland > You may think that
Victoria Stecker > *licks her lips > Violence and suffering begets more violence and suffering.
Nola Doyle > And you wonder why the Nation exists. Your hypocrisy is as foul as your motives.
Dex Nederland > As the Minmatar would point out, "Life without Freedom is no life at all"
Mike Azariah > Nola, does it strike you as ironic that the nations quest for Unity and peace has brought together so many different pilots and corporations to side against the Nation? In the name of individuality, we will fight together
Ryanqzqz > Unity to combat Unity :P
Mike Azariah > *nods
Nola Doyle > As I said before, it's nothing more than a unity of convenience.
Sophie Starsparrow > Unity. *giving Nola the finger*
Victoria Stecker > *jokes > and what unity isn't based on convenience or self interest?
Dex Nederland > Unity of convenience is the only unity there is
Mike Azariah > *rolls eyes
Nola Doyle > As I suggested before, a time will come when the Coalition will implode on itself. It doesn't take much honestly.
Nola Doyle > CONCORD's blood bounties merely sweeten the deal for your mercenaries.
Mike Azariah > *nods, comes from having free will and all that
Dex Nederland > And I think that Nation will find its own Unity strained
Nola Doyle > Perhaps. I'm not excluding opportunists on the Nation's side.
Kazzzi > what unity? capsuleers are killing each other just as much as before
Sophie Starsparrow > Nola I believe you are right...and it still won't matter.
Nola Doyle > Precisely, Kazzzi.
Lenell > It already has Miss Doyle. A half hour ago we had an interview from one-eye there saying how she wants to blow up Nation and the defense forces both. And this putz smiled and asked her out to dinner.
Nola Doyle > *laughs.
Mike Azariah > *grins
Mike Azariah > At least Victoria answered her questions directly
Sophie Starsparrow > Yes Kazzi. And we still have more than enough to halt the sansha. The Empires were killing each other last time too
Nola Doyle > And I'll do my best to refrain from saying "I told you so'.
Lenell > True enough, I will give her that. These others can't even give a straight answer WHY they support Nation.
Ryanqzqz > *mumbles "And i'll do my best to stay away from Doyle's mouth..."
Drake Arson > ... Interesting.... Di dI miss anything.....?
snake driver > Nope.
Mike Azariah > I am doing a few interviews, that's all
Ryanqzqz > *glanes up from his schematic.. "Oh hai Toaster Drake"
Drake Arson > Hello Lapdog Ryan
Nola Doyle > *smiles at Drake
Mike Azariah > If Untiy were achieved what would be your position in the New order?
Ryanqzqz > *smiles, moving another circuit
Drake Arson > *nods towards Nola. "Sister. "
Nola Doyle > I'm a scientist and inventor by trade, so I would hope to contribute in such a manner if able.
snake driver > You said that you haven't "joined Nation." Why not?
Mike Azariah > How is that different from what a scientist could do BEFORE all of this began?
Drake Arson > But I have.
Kazzzi > would be nice if more would work together to eradicate the Nation, a defensive campaign like the present one won't slow them down
Ryanqzqz > *deletes a node and adds a logic gate "Yeah... inventing a toaster that makes Hekkian fries too..........."
Nola Doyle > It isn't, Mr. Azariah. Did you expect it to?
Mike Azariah > *shakes head.
Drake Arson > *chuckles. "You all are slow learners are yah? Well, most of you. THe others caught on quick. "
Mike Azariah > So what is your personal reason for being a part of the Nation?
Nola Doyle > I wish to have a place to call home, Mr. Azariah.
Mike Azariah > All this, so you can have a home?
Lillith Blackheart > "Home" is easier for some than others.
Nola Doyle > A sanctuary, if you will. A place to perform my work in peace without bureaucracy and hypocritical ethics halting evolution and progress.
Mike Azariah > And the 6 million people taken so far are for . . . gardeners and house staff?
Ashar KorAzor > And what have you performed, captain Doyle?
Lillith Blackheart > Almost ten million, Captain. Your number is behind.
Ashar KorAzor > What is it you have found that you could not, in solitude?
Lillith Blackheart > You apparently neglected this afternoon's rather... impressive actions.
Nola Doyle > Mr. Azariah, I'm not so petty. Do I look Amarrian?
Ashar KorAzor > Pretty sure we don't do the whole mass labor thing out of pettiness.
Nola Doyle > Your society begs to differ.
Nola Doyle > I was in Amarr this evening. It didn't take long to find slavers willing to barter their slaves to me.
Ashar KorAzor > My society claims to do it out of moral regard and actually does it because of its energy requirement.
Nola Doyle > I claimed only business.
Nola Doyle > None asked what my intentions were, only how much they were being paid.
Ashar KorAzor > Yes, and I'm sure they've been arrested for it by now.
Lillith Blackheart > Given that it happens regularly, I somehow doubt it.
Nola Doyle > Hardly. They live amongst us in the stars. The criminals that form your coalition.
Kovid > *flickers active.
Ashar KorAzor > *smiles. * Such is the way of the capsuleer, to move like sand in the shifting wind and disappear when and where they choose. That the other grains do not fare so well is hard to fathom.
Nola Doyle > My point remains.
Ashar KorAzor > If it pleases you to think so, feel free.
Ashar KorAzor > Again captain Doyle, what is it you have done - in your research and your work in general - that you could not accomplish in solitude elsewhere? Among a small institue of the like minded?
Mike Azariah > So you are gaining people by methods other than drop ships?
Mike Azariah > and the odd recruit?
Nola Doyle > Your homeless are glad to have a place to call home. The leftovers society has left to die.
Ashar KorAzor > I rather think your work in decanting whatever from this or that chunk of the phenome is not what made the cluster turn its back on you.
Nola Doyle > Your slaves, whom you gladly exploit for profit.
Ashar KorAzor > See how she has no answer.
Nola Doyle > Your scientists and businessmen are happy to join a Nation that considers them more than a commodity.
Ashar KorAzor > An empty thing, your principles and your indignation and your loyalty.
Mike Azariah > *chuckles, Ms KorAzor, she has deftly avoided most of my querstions
Mike Azariah > But that in itslef is an answer
Ashar KorAzor > It's not terribly deft if your opponents remember it later.
snake driver > Abbess, she's addressing questions from the interveiwer, and seems to be ignoring you. You may wish to save your breath.
Ryanqzqz > *draws a picture of a fish in the dust on the table... "She's a slippery one"
Nola Doyle > It's not surprising those who stand to profit would oppose change to the status quo.
Mike Azariah > *taps his comm. I am forgetfull, my elctronics less so
Ashar KorAzor > Nah, I'll say what I like - she is, after all, responding to me.
snake driver > In that case, Nola, I would say that Nation has done a pretty poor job of selling its utopian future to the masses.
Mike Azariah > I apologise Ms KorAzor, I have been doing a pair of interviews while the nothing was active here
Nola Doyle > That's not for me to judge, sir.
Mike Azariah > If you wish I will cease
snake driver > If it is supposedly going to be so much better, why do somany people hate the idea?
Ryanqzqz > *slaps his forehead.. OF COURSE! They need a marketing director!
snake driver > I think Vikky would be perfect for the job!
Nola Doyle > Propaganda, fear, CONCORD blood money are all reasons.
Ryanqzqz > *glances at Stecker
Kovid > Blood money?
Lillith Blackheart > Bounties.
Lillith Blackheart > I would think that should be easy enough to figure out.
Lillith Blackheart > You seem like a bright enough chap to recognize that.
Victoria Stecker > *is paying no attention to the current bickering.
Nola Doyle > If bounties were placed on Militia, imagine how quickly the empires would fall.
Angel Vengen > Greeetings!
Ashar KorAzor > Captain Azariah, feel free to do whatever you like.
Lillith Blackheart > I note that the talk of blood money brings Vengen calling.
Lillith Blackheart > *grins. > Hello again, my friend.
Nola Doyle > *smiles, "Hello Lillith. I'm sorry, I've been rather...vocal as of late. I apologize."
Kovid > The empires pay a lot of money out to thin out the herds on their peripheries.
Mike Azariah > Nola, What question would you wish i asked of you, in this interview?
Nola Doyle > *grins, "What's in my mouth?"
Lillith Blackheart > How is business these days, Vengen?
Mike Azariah > *looks towards snake and bursts out laughing
Ryanqzqz > *snorts
Victoria Stecker > *rolls her eyes
Angel Vengen > Well, if I must say so myslef, business is booming
snake driver > *falls out of his chair laughing
snake driver > *climbs back into his chair, wiping tears from his eyes
Mike Azariah > Ms Doyle I would like to thank you for your patience with my questions
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Considering anything unborg-like is out of the norm, I'd say its not too hard to play outside the box here. ;)
Yeah, Nation RP seems to be like, all borg-talk, like JiaLei Lian and what have you. Not the one to say I/Seriphyn often, but we're both struggling to accept the ones who aren't.
Of course there is that guy from TBL that was normal, and was some Nation sleeper...or something, can't recall.
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My impressions of Sansha RP:
I do not believe that there is a single 'official' Sansha RP, and I'm sure that would be a given for many posting here. From what I understand, I interpret several potential facets of Sansha for RP'ers to represent.
1- 'Perpetual motion'
Since the defeat at the hand of the combined forces of the various empires, I believe that much central sansha coordination has been lost, leaving those units/settlements that are intact running on old (sometimes obsolete) orders / algorithms (e.g. patrol sector xyz, even though sector xyz is no longer under sansha control). Some of the large fragments may have some degree of autonomy, with limited self-set objectives to increase their strength / attack nearby enemies.
2- Culture
Culture may show variance from group to group, dependent on various factors. Despite measures that may have been put in place to homogenise immigrants into the ideal society, there may be vestiges of the home culture. Furthermore, due to the aforementioned loss of communication, there may have been some degree of divergent evolution of sansha culture (some may be more archaic or hardcore than others). True slaves may be static (if isolated) or reprogrammed to remain up-to-date with the non-true slave population.
3- Empire meddling
Aiming to remain in time with technology, it is conceivable that sanshan agents are regularly sent to the empires to learn about their technology, to infiltrate corporations and manipulate them to their own ends. This could be as a prelude to a larger sansha attack (as we've seen in the recent events).
4- Empire sympathisers
Garnered by agents, or by virtue of self-interest, it is conceivable that there are de novo sansha supporters within the empire capsuleer and non-capsuleer nations. This may be a by-product of biased sansha propaganda from bygone eras, or due to an informed decision by one with access to privelaged information. Such people may be slightly crazy Amarrian slavers who may or may not be religious slavers, Caldari with a penchant for power / alternative structure to the state (heth-haters?), Caldari who see an opportunities in sansha space (no guristas, bought out the bad guys), Gallente 'rebels' from privelaged backgrounds who want to try something new; Minmatar who, for some reason, see the new society as overcoming the corruption of the republic, transcending the traditional view of slavery (hey, anyone can be a slave while we can for once become ideal citizens in utopia!)...etc...
More to be said, but revision calls..
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There are some important pieces of infomation which I think is often overlooked, which actually forms the basis of my Sansha RP. This comes from the Sansha chronicles:
... countless millions of followers were eventually attracted to Sansha's dream of a better way, a new Paradise where every citizen was free to pursue their dreams.
His dream was that these zombie-like True Slaves would free other more worthy people to pursue peaceful and productive lives.
I view Sansha as a Utopian visionary, so when I decided to move my RP in this direction for IC reasons, because in character I had been snubbed by the Amarr hardliners, I did a bit of research into real life Utopian ideals and read some real life research dissertation papers on the subject of how to achieve Utopia on earth.
I distilled the real life Utopian view into four principles, combining a few along the way:
* Complete Knowledge and the Rejection of Ignorance;
* All Good, No Evil;
* Infinite Provision of all Needs and Wants Without any Required Effort;
* Balance Between the Individual and Society.
In character I reject the idea that the nation is Borg like at all. The True Slaves are a tool, used by the Citizens of the Nation (True Citizens) to achieve their perfect society. True Slaves are mindless slaves, serving society and helping society achieve its Utopia. True Slaves were not Sansha's intended end goal. He does NOT want to remove individuality and does not want to create a hive mind.
Applying this thinking to the RL Utopian principles the existence of mindless True Slaves allows the True Citizens to live in accordance with the Utopian Principles. It gives free time to study and partake in arts fulfilling the principle of true knowledge and allows all True Citizens to fulfill all needs and wants without any effort.
And what about the other two principles? You need to look at Balance Between the Individual and Society. The "all good, no evil" principle only applies to those you view as part of your society and who subscribe to your views. If they don't, they are ignorant. Ignorance is rejected by the first principle. They can spread evil, which is rejected by the second principle and must thus be removed from society.
Removal is done by making them into True Slaves. In this way people who directly oppose the free will of the True Citizens are turned into tools to build Utopia.
This is a very short synopsis which doesnt compleatly explain all the principles of Utopia. For the full explanation you should see my corporations full manifesto at http://ispeccorp.wordpress.com/principles-of-utopia/ (http://ispeccorp.wordpress.com/principles-of-utopia/).
Of course, this is Graanvlokkies view, and I see that this view may put in conflict with all the other Borg Sansha.
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Graanvlokkie hit the nail on the head.
In my experience, the "borg" approach has never been the norm among established Sansha loyalists. That's more often a label that gets thrust upon it by the detractors of the Nation. A valid tactic to be sure, but not one conducive to give an accurate picture regarding the true nature of the Nation, if one can speak of such.
I myself play a character who descend from the cultural and intellectual elite of the Nation (who tended to gravitate towards Esoteria, according to the region's description). I've consistently tried to portray that culture as a snobbish semi-aristocracy, and although I've made the dabbling in (often cosmetic) cybernetics a trademark of that culture, being turned into a True Slave (or an Auxiliary Citizen, as I've decided they call them) would definitely be viewed as a lower level of existence, not a higher one. The Auxiliary Citizens are there to sweep the streets and take out the garbage and sort the mail and man the warships so that "proper people" (or real people, as Ruby would say) won't have to. Again, as Ruby would say, "Who would want to build an empire consisting exclusively of sailors and janitors? It makes no sense."
Turning misfits, criminals and enemies into True Slaves is simply much more efficient than locking them up or kicking them out or putting them to death would be. They are neutralized as a threat, and turned into something beneficial for society. Add to that the well-established idea that the implants of the True Slaves make them feel happy and content with their lot in life, and you have the basis for some deliciously twisted rationalizations regarding how it's actually a humane thing to do to them. :D
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Yeah, Nation RP seems to be like, all borg-talk, like JiaLei Lian and what have you. Not the one to say I/Seriphyn often, but we're both struggling to accept the ones who aren't.
I don't agree with that. Some Nation RP is that way. If you watch Lillith she's definitely not Borg-like. She talks very matter of factly, but she has always been that way when speaking. She tends to phrase things carefully. However if you actually listen to her, what you hear out of her is a great deal of reverence for the Nation. The best comparisons I can think of for her would be (in the game) an Amarrian Slaver or this guy (http://www.gateworld.net/wiki/Doci) for those who have seen StarGate SG-1's later seasons.
I think people too quickly shoe-horn in the various people that work for the Nation simply because they speak of Unity and all those things. However like-minded people (as compared to hive-minded) tend to do that.
I consider that Lillith should appear to be more of a cult leader than of a Borg-like robot-person.
But also bear in mind this is an uphill battle I've been fighting since 2006 trying to get people to stop calling her a "toaster" since she has absolutely no resemblance in any behavioral way to a mindless drone.
However that's what people always fall back on.
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As an addendum: I would suggest that the unusual RP angle for Sansha is the borg-like mentality. Very few of the Sansha RPers actually fall into that. The CCP True Slaves do as well because that is what they are, but even Kuvakei is incredibly well spoken, charismatic, and even quite kind.
The few are that which is accepted as the norm, and sadly this happens both IC and OOC (IC it is totally understandable, OOC it doesn't make sense) and we then think that non-Borg character examples are "unusual RP angles".
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"I" meaning you have been fighting, in an OOC sense, Lilith? or in the IC one?
ICly, the toaster is a just like calling Soter a "Feddie" or some-such. They're both words designed to spark a response in a IC environment.
And in such an IC environment, a significant number of people apparently have little reason to give Nation supporters the time of day, much less respect or decency.
If you don't like, OOC, that people don't respect you from their own IC perspectives, I suggest you adjust your IC behavior.
If it is your character that is the one that doesn't like the term, then hopefully she's smart enough to understand the situation. ;)
Additionally, I find it curious that people state that the "unusual" angle here is the borg mentality. Actual True Slaves are borg. The only other means of portrayal here are the "sleeper agent Sansha" as characterized in TBL, and the "sympathizers", people who have been drawn to the Nation out of ideology or money. The later are still independent human beings, because Kuvakei hasn't implanted them yet, the former are allowed to be as such only for the duration of their mission.
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"I" meaning you have been fighting, in an OOC sense, Lilith? or in the IC one?
Little bit of both, but I was focusing on the OOC sense, else I would have said "Lillith".
If you don't like, OOC, that people don't respect you from their own IC perspectives, I suggest you adjust your IC behavior.
You read too much into things. What I refer to is people -- of which there are a lot (some that even post here on backstage) -- that tell people they're not playing Sansha properly because they're not playing a Borg.
Additionally, I find it curious that people state that the "unusual" angle here is the borg mentality. Actual True Slaves are borg. The only other means of portrayal here are the "sleeper agent Sansha" as characterized in TBL, and the "sympathizers", people who have been drawn to the Nation out of ideology or money. The later are still independent human beings, because Kuvakei hasn't implanted them yet, the former are allowed to be as such only for the duration of their mission.
Because it is. The True Slaves are similar to Borg, yes. They are not all that the Nation encompasses. And this is exactly the problem I am referring to. People only see the True Slaves, and assume that it is the defining factor.
I think it should be clear that the ideology is the defining factor, and the True Slaves are a tool to achieve the ideology, and they are also the demonizing factor -- since all antagonists require that in some manner.
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I dunno. I think perhaps we're dumbing things down a bit much. Afterall, do we dictate a standard of play from any other sect by one attribute alone? Is an Amarrian dictated solely by whether they keep slaves or not? Are neutral (ie. not amarr hating anti-slavers) Minmatar exceptional in their behavior?
My point is, when we discuss Sansha, we're comparing apples and oranges when we describe the behavior of True Slave actors from capsuleers sympathetic to the Nation's activities. Lumping them altogether and saying one is more of an exception than another isn't really an ideal comparison. Even back when Lil was in True Core, the corp was formed by Dust Angel, a robotic borg like slave herself.
The difference has always existed.
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I think that the 'borg' comparison is an easy trap to fall into.
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How about "space zombies"?
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I always treated the Sansha angle as epic cyberpunk and spikey robot styles.
:/
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Well you're a toaster now. Grats.
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I always treated the Sansha angle as epic cyberpunk and spikey robot styles.
:/
Agreed, but we have lots of cyberpunk fodder in this game. What do you like about Sansha over the cyberpunkish stuff? :)
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There are some important pieces of infomation which I think is often overlooked, which actually forms the basis of my Sansha RP. This comes from the Sansha chronicles:
... countless millions of followers were eventually attracted to Sansha's dream of a better way, a new Paradise where every citizen was free to pursue their dreams.
His dream was that these zombie-like True Slaves would free other more worthy people to pursue peaceful and productive lives.
I view Sansha as a Utopian visionary, so when I decided to move my RP in this direction for IC reasons, because in character I had been snubbed by the Amarr hardliners, I did a bit of research into real life Utopian ideals and read some real life research dissertation papers on the subject of how to achieve Utopia on earth.
Okay, cool, this is very helpful... :)
Re: Cyberpunk, Nation seems more akin to the Machines from the Matrix, in terms of aesthetic. Then again I'm pretty terrible at defining cyberpunk. Even the Federation has the capability for it, if an aspect of cyberpunk is futuristic megacorporations influencing futuristic democratic government.
I would say the Empire has the least scope for it, seeming to fall into "Generic fantasy empire in space". Or somethin'.
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I always treated the Sansha angle as epic cyberpunk and spikey robot styles.
:/
Agreed, but we have lots of cyberpunk fodder in this game. What do you like about Sansha over the cyberpunkish stuff? :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v205/izumizagari/obvious.png)
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I would say the Empire has the least scope for it, seeming to fall into "Generic fantasy empire in space". Or somethin'.
Not for nothing, but I notice that sometimes you think that certain areas have lots of limits because you see them as mapped to some generic archetype plus "in space". I tend to see it slightly differently, where players find lots of ways to expand nooks and crannies in inventive ways. Who says that cyberpunk can't include theocratic elements? And Khanid cyberknights... well.
Anyway, yes, spiky ships FTW.
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The giant blade on the front of the Phantasm regularly makes me wish I could ram ships whenever I'm flying mine.
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Celeste has Sanshan tendencies. They'd be more pronounced if the Sansha were just repurposing criminals or the terminally fucked-up for the greater good of humanity.1 Since they're not, there's zero risk of her joining the cause.
Not that she's a medical doctor, but as things are now, she'd be willing to assist in the vivisection2 of a capsuleer Sansha supporter in the effort to determine if they're controlled, or merely deluded/opportunistic.
1 E.g. Farscape, Season Two, Episode 18, "A Clockwork Nebari".
2 'Cause if you just kill the bastards, they'll come back. There's also something to be said for having the opportunity to see if/how a Sansha can be separated from its "controller".
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Arvo has some tendencies towards their viewpoint too, most particularly of all understanding the connection of "All for the good of many" ideal prevailant in Caldari culture that is linked to the Nation. That frame of thinking in sacrificing part of the individual for the whole is how his ancestors managed to survive on their homeworld long ago. He also has certain beliefs of his own that wouldn't mesh well with Caldari culture, kept hidden but feeling they would be welcome in the Nation.
However, he has at the same time trouble understanding with recent events why they're going around snatching civilians clusterwide at this magnitude and force. Kuvakei being a Deteis himself, should understand also from Caldari beliefs, the importance of not forcing your own idiologies onto other people.
So, if the Nation took a more subtle approach, he would be more prone to joining this side. I think the Nation needs a better PR campaign. :P
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Are you kidding? Naqam has some of the most hilarious PR campaigns evar.
And we're not even done yet. :E
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Is that so?
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That would be, your character's interpretations of Deteis beliefs?
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I thought that was more a canonical, general Caldari mindset. Not just Deteis. I apologize if specifying Kuvakei's race detracted from the direction I was going in for my post. But yes... from Arvo's perspective.
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The not forcing ideologies on others bit. I'm not sure that it is that cut and dried. While there is on the one hand the history with the Gallente (and the current 'cultural imperialism' that Heth leveraged to stir people up against them), I don't think that forcing their ideology on people is something that megacorporations necessarily shy away from. At least, I think it is arguable. :D
As for PR, during my time in Naqam Izzy, Carcosa Hali, and I, among others, waged a fairly long PR campaign that was - I think - to some degree successful.
Of course, were I to go back to that, the more recent events would be a bit of a setback. :X
Although it is worth noting that the current Sansha invasion isn't out of line with Silver's public stance on the Nation. I took the easy way out, and said that the True Slaves were a tragic mistake.
Anyway, I can try and find some of that Pr stuff, if you're interested in the tack we took to try and portray the Nation as not the cluster's 'borg'.
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I used to be pretty heavy on it, somewhat again, too.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=394838
Also just recently had an interview with ISD, I'll be having a pretty good quote (EPIC QUOTE IS EPIC!) in an article likely that might work, but I also gave her this speech:
When people view Nation, they see only that which they fear.
That is not what Nation entails.
These people are not being abducted and forced into servitude. That is the way of the Amarr.
These people are not being left to rot in the cesspools of lower society. That is the way of the Caldari and the Gallente.
These people are not being left to their own devices where they will destroy themselves and others for their own hedonistic pursuits. That is the way of the Matari.
Nation is strong because we share an ideal. We share a Vision that this Cluster deserves something better than what the Empires and their Capsuleers have given it. We seek Unity, Acceptance, Understanding, and True Freedom. We seek to strip aside the illusion that those that are "free" have a choice to do what they wish to do. We seek a higher purpose. We are not mindless drones simply because we ascribe to Master Kuvakei's vision, nor that we follow his Will. We, like they, make our choices based on that which we feel is True and Just. However, unlike many, our vision is greater than ourselves.
...which sadly is too long to make it into the article. :(
Some of the Sansha Loyalist types have suggested I actually create a bio and slap it in there.
The Good PR is out there.
Chell Charon has been doing a lot of it as well,
here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1323156
here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1320041
and here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1321968
Just gotta look for it. Maybe bump it a little so it doesn't keep drowning in the sea of conspiracy theories about sleepers.
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"All for the good of many" is literally the Caldari Navy motto -- it's not just a "Deteis" belief (and honestly I think at this point the Deteis and Civire are culturally the same, seeing as how they have been intermingling and united for thousands of years). On the other hand, the sanctity of the individual and libertarian thought have a strong hold on the Caldari as well, which is something that makes the Sanshas (and slavery in general) rather repugnant to them.
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By libertarian you mean something like anarchocapitalism. My interpretation is that the Caldari oligarchy is quite authoritarian and distant from most of the populace. That being said, what is announced as doctrine and what is practice are two different things.
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You can be very authoritarian on one level and anarchocapitalistic on another. Between the corporations it is very anarchocapitalistic, while within the corporations (and on down the tree) it becomes more "authoritarian" by modern western standards.
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I always saw a lot of variation between corporations, too. A lot. Except for everything being grey, ofc.
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I don't just mean economic libertarianism -- I think the Caldari truly believe that you should be allowed to make any bad choice you want. You will just have to pay the consequences for it, and they can be dire. Cultural pressure and contracts are more powerful than laws in terms of keeping the Caldari populace in line, I think. Forcing someone at gunpoint to work for you does not seem very Caldari to me, although enforcing a contract they entered into at their own will, with harsh consequences for failure -- that is VERY Caldari. The difference between the two may be rather fine, but it is pretty big in terms of thought.
However, I don't want to derail the Sansha conversation, so if you want to discuss this, perhaps another thread would be a good idea.