Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => CCP Public Library => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 28 Oct 2013, 05:40
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Split from tangent on Tibus Heth's downfall
I think I'm going with Kunarian here. The "America has megacorporations, so do the Caldari! Therefore they are similar". That's a selection bias that ignores the biggest fundamentals of both the US and the Caldari.
I really didn't think it needed explanation it in detail, but looking at the basics of the two polities, they really are worlds apart.
The United States was founded on the principles of the Enlightenment and classical liberalism
The Caldari State was founded to protect the rights of the megacorporations (and the Caldari people as a community they would assert) from non-Caldari forces. It's constantly repeated that the Caldari find the ideas of individualism completely antithesis to their world view, seeing it as selfish and egoistic. There is no John Locke or Benjamin Franklin in Caldari history, and there is certainly no espousing of Enlightenment principles.
The United States has a central legal document that takes precedence over all other institutions, with a central judiciary to enforce this
The only thing that binds the Caldari State together as an entity are laws BETWEEN the constituent parts, not in SUPREMACY OF. The Caldari Business Tribunal (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_Business_Tribunal_(NPC_corporation)) is explicitly stated to NOT be a supreme court, specifically outlined that its main purpose is to resolve disagreements, not enforce any central laws. That is significantly detached from the role of republican Supreme Courts.
The United States provides rights of the individual against the local authorities
Building on the previous, if an individual has an issue with their state government, they can go to the Federal government to seek a solution. If an individual Caldari has an issue against their megacorporation, then there is no higher authority they can approach. The CBT is not a supreme court, again.
The United States central government passes laws independently of its constituent governments
The CEP is made up of appointed representatives from the megacorporations, and therefore could only legislate with the express approval of those megas. In contrast, the US central govt is elected by the people and not appointed by the state governments. That means representatives of Texas could vote however they want independent of what the Texan government wants. This is not like the CEP.
The United States is a federation
And the Caldari State is not, as it is a confederation where the central government cannot act independently of its parts. Merely an assertion of the previous points.
The United States is democratic
And the Caldari State is not. It doesn't matter about all the accusations of special interests, the influence of the 1%, etc. etc. Speaking at the fundamental constitutional level, every citizen of age can vote. That makes it democratic regardless of the quirks that have come about over time. You can vote in the Caldari State, sure, if you can afford to buy a share of a megacorporation that is probably valued in the tens of trillions of ISK...and then again you'll be outvoted by someone who has 100 shares, and then again they'll be outvoted by someone who inherits their 1000 shares. That all has legal basis.
Now swap out the Gallente Federation with the United States above. You can easily swap out the United States with the European Union, too. The Caldari State does not have a Supreme Court, it does not have a Legislature voted in by the people independently of the constituent governments. It no longer has a Head of State that is put into office independently of its constituent governments. The Caldari State does not have a constitution that espouses individual freedoms and classical liberalism. The Caldari State has a completely different political and legal system to the United States, to the point that it far removes the social and cultural order from one another.
I think the point is made, anyway. But the argument "The Caldari State is entirely privatized*, and so is a large portion of the US!" doesn't sit with me. Britain is becoming increasingly privatized, but I don't think anyone would compare the Caldari with the British.
*I don't think this is even a concept to the Caldari, because the term 'privatized' infers there is something in opposite to it.
In the end though, there's enough details about the Caldari that poor comparisons to RL is no longer needed. Especially that there is no political analogue (plenty of cultural analogues, though, of which American culture would not be)
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I'd say, if anything, the Caldari State is an analogue to China. They're an overbearing state with a giant corporate culture that attempts to make belief into the state a replacement for religion and multiculturalism. Having read the lore and hearing the way people here play them, I thought they were pretty much a distinct riff on Communist China, maybe on Communism as a whole.
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I'd say, if anything, the Caldari State is an analogue to China. They're an overbearing state with a giant corporate culture that attempts to make belief into the state a replacement for religion and multiculturalism. Having read the lore and hearing the way people here play them, I thought they were pretty much a distinct riff on Communist China, maybe on Communism as a whole.
Problem with that picture is that the Caldari megas are the state wheras in China the state creates the chinese corporations. Additionally there are some points Seriphyn made which you could apply to china in comparison to the caldari. Although China is more culturally similar to the Caldari than the US, just like Japan is more culturally similar.
To be honest I think the analogue is better than the US one but still both are far off.
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I thought a lot of the original Caldari flavorings were based off of 1980's corporate Japan in structure and 'tone'?
The extreme corporate loyalty of employees, working for one corp for life, that kind of thing.
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I thought a lot of the original Caldari flavorings were based off of 1980's corporate Japan in structure and 'tone'?
The extreme corporate loyalty of employees, working for one corp for life, that kind of thing.
Yes, this^^
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My responses are examples from the historical United States and largely pre-Civil War. In some cases they are pre-1789, when the US Constitution was accepted by the States.
The United States has a central legal document that takes precedence over all other institutions, with a central judiciary to enforce this
The only thing that binds the Caldari State together as an entity are laws BETWEEN the constituent parts, not in SUPREMACY OF. The Caldari Business Tribunal is explicitly stated to NOT be a supreme court, specifically outlined that its main purpose is to resolve disagreements, not enforce any central laws. That is significantly detached from the role of republican Supreme Courts.
Except that is one of the things the US Supreme Court system actually rules on. It rules on disagreements over the Constitutionality of other laws. The State of Arizona vs the United States is likely the most recent example of disagreement between a State and the Federal government being adjudicated in the US Supreme Court. It also rules in disagreements between States or citizens of different States.
Controversies between two or more States;—between a State and Citizens of another State;—between Citizens of different States;—between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.
The United States provides rights of the individual against the local authorities
Building on the previous, if an individual has an issue with their state government, they can go to the Federal government to seek a solution. If an individual Caldari has an issue against their megacorporation, then there is no higher authority they can approach. The CBT is not a supreme court, again.
This was however not always true. Until after the Civil War, unless it was expressly forbidden in the Constitution, the States had the right to do what they want.
The United States central government passes laws independently of its constituent governments
The CEP is made up of appointed representatives from the megacorporations, and therefore could only legislate with the express approval of those megas. In contrast, the US central govt is elected by the people and not appointed by the state governments. That means representatives of Texas could vote however they want independent of what the Texan government wants. This is not like the CEP.
Except that the original intent of the Senate was just that - to provide the States a voice separate from the democratically elected House. Originally, Senators were not voted into office by the people, but by their respective state legislators.
The United States is a federation
And the Caldari State is not, as it is a confederation where the central government cannot act independently of its parts. Merely an assertion of the previous points.
From 1776 to 1789, the US was a confederation of States. Through 1865, it can be argued it was still more confederated than federated.
Put another way, it is possible to take examples from US history as examples upon which to base how a confederation of largely independent "states" may behave.
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Honestly I'm a bit confused now, you've gone from trying to prove that the modern US is like the Caldari to trying to prove that the historical and pre-war US is like the Caldari with the aim of establishing what exactly?
At the moment the idea of trying to link the US to the Caldari seems to be argument for arguments sake.
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*orange is not Vikarion*
I have not, to my memory, actually argued that the modern United States and the fictional Caldari State are parallel entities in any particular thread. I have in the past argued that parallels between the post-Revolution and pre-Civil War US and Caldari State exist (as I did above).
In the thread that spawned this thread, I disagreed with the assertion that there is more social mobility in the State than in the US. I ceased arguing the topic here when I realized that I actually have a disagreement with how social mobility is measured by the experts. Until I expend the energy to come up with a measure of social mobility which improves upon the system used today, it is not worth arguing here or elsewhere.*
*[spoiler]In reading through the studies used for social mobility, I found that a population is divided into quarters and generational mobility is measured as the population transitions from one quarter to the next between generations.
In any population, the majority (~70%) will be within one standard deviation of the median income. For a largely equal society, there is a low standard deviation and thus the ability to move between social quarters is easier (requires a low magnitude change). For an unequal society, the standard deviation is larger, and thus moving between social quarters is more difficult (requires a large magnitude change). If two families experience the same income change, but in different societies, a family in the largely equal society may be counted as moving socially while the family in the less equal society will not be.
In a perfectly equal society, mobility will be infinite since using the metric of movement between quarters, anyone could be counted in any of the quarters. However, no actual movement in social standing would occur.[/spoiler]
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*orange is not Vikarion*
Forgive me, heat of the moment and myself not thinking.
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I thought a lot of the original Caldari flavorings were based off of 1980's corporate Japan in structure and 'tone'?
The extreme corporate loyalty of employees, working for one corp for life, that kind of thing.
Honestly, Japanese culture is way too colorful and diverse for Caldari culture. Japanese people tend to be loyal for loyalty's sake. Caldari culture as I understand it is big, megalithic, authoritarian, and homogeneous. Japan has a lot of internal diversity kind of fused with one ethnic identity. If there's one thing I've gotten from reading the lore and the way the lore is interpreted, it's almost certainly a riff on Communism, with its overarching emphasis on unity, enforced loyalty to the State, and suspicion of diversity. The only difference seems to be that Caldari corporations ARE the state, whereas Communist states tend to own or be majority shareholders in their corporations.
They're really drilling that Communist button, so I essentially figured that CCP is taking their cues for the Caldari from the Chinese grab bag, they're just doing it from a corporate angle. Sort of the way that the Amarrian Empire is almost certainly a riff on old-school European feudalism, right down to their issue of foreign conquest and religious unity, you just have to pull back the Roman veneer they use to give it cohesion to get there.
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I'd tend to agree that the Caldari State doesn't resemble the United States, on the ground. While the US = Gallente Federation comparison is also problematic, the fetishization of individual rights (loaded, but seriously here) would be more likely to tie into the Federation than the State. It may simply be that RPers tend to stress individualistic competition over the communal tendencies constantly referred to in PF.
My view would tend to be that the monolithic Caldari culture may be best compared with pre-WW2 Japanese culture, which was essentially expansionist, Confucian, but with Western trappings. This will also lend itself to Confucian class-awareness and taboo, and the paternalism that a strongly communal and hierarchic society should possess.
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At the end of the day, we as consumers are going to draw parallels to historical models we are most comfortable with in terms of attempting to understand the fiction we are consuming.
In some cases, there may be a clear template upon which the author built a fictional entity. In other cases, where there are mash-ups of various cultures and story arcs, the template is less clear.
As for the Caldari, when I started caring about background, the perception I had was one very much of a cyberpunk corporate confederation, ala Shadowrun. To me, this means a mash-up/magnification of west coast US & Japanese cultures (which in some ways exists).
Today, I don't know, I have not kept up with the changes to the background sufficiently to have a well founded opinion.
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At the end of the day, we as consumers are going to draw parallels to historical models we are most comfortable with in terms of attempting to understand the fiction we are consuming.
In some cases, there may be a clear template upon which the author built a fictional entity. In other cases, where there are mash-ups of various cultures and story arcs, the template is less clear.
As for the Caldari, when I started caring about background, the perception I had was one very much of a cyberpunk corporate confederation, ala Shadowrun. To me, this means a mash-up/magnification of west coast US & Japanese cultures (which in some ways exists).
Today, I don't know, I have not kept up with the changes to the background sufficiently to have a well founded opinion.
I always felt the Caldari is similar to the Japanese Zaibatsu mixed with the Germanic/Swiss academic system plus East India Company business model (Colonies! More colonies!).
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I don't know particularly well what kind of kool-aid current CCP writers are drinking, but when the original writers wrote Caldari State it was an intermix of Finnish and Japanese culture, and the internet folk seem to be hung up on the japanese side of things. Rarely do folks actually look at what things the Finnish side brings to the mix or has brought when this actually was a thing, besides a naming template ofc.
The isolationist nature of Caldari comes more from Finnish culture than Japanese, same with the gruffness of doing what your job is nevermind how shit that job might be. The essence of an old Finnish proverb lives in strong in the Caldari culture "Shitty trip, but at least it got made." Unfortunately it doesn't translate too well.
Caldari State has very little to do with the US in my eyes other than being hypercapitalistic shithole where rich get richer and the rest fight for scraps. Though TonyG did his best to write the Caldari State as Hitler's America. Thankfully that shit is being swept under the carpet.
Anyhow, food for thought.
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The only silly comparison of Caldari = US is:
1) Megacaorps are entities like people and can be protected with rights reserved for living people.
2)
(http://fairtradetrends.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/adbusters_corporate_flag1.gif?w=500&h=333)
Don't put more thought into it than that. It'll hurt your head. It's basically someone played Cyberpunk 2020 too long.
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Caldari culture as I understand it is big, megalithic, authoritarian, and homogeneous.
Right, which means its not like any existing human culture. A culture can be large or it can be homogeneous but not both. Though large cultures can appear homogeneous, especially to outsiders.
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America is not about the megacorperations thought we do have them. Imo, I have always seen Gallentean pop culture worship and the megacorperations as originating from the United States.
But most of the EvE cultures are a mix after all. We also could lay claim to the HUA religious practices of Amarr. Or everything really
Because America.
(not really)
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I have always seen Gallentean pop culture worship and the megacorperations as originating from the United States.
I will argue that Caldari megacorporations originated in the Federation and are modeled off of the Gallente corporation. This creates a parallel between the Japanese Meiji period, in which they imported western experts in various fields to rapidly modernize.
[mod]Snipped by Silver[/mod]
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It's hard to look for an isolationist Nationstate and NOT look at Edo era Japan. Seriously. Edo era Japan is the posterboy for isolationist states, I'm not sure what Finland has done that's comparable to the expulsion of all foreigners for two-hundred odd years.
In addition the mega-corporations obviously borrow from the Zaibatsu concept and from 70's to 80's corporate Japan. All of the space Bushido seems to have less of a grounds because from what I can see, reading PF, the State is far more focused on results than intentions and beauty in execution - perhaps that part is the Finnish influence.
As for America, there really are few direct comparisons that I can see beyond the whole 'Corporations as people' shtick. The actual corporations themselves in the State are tied into the culture of the State and they firmly believe that the duty that is owed them by their employees ought to be reciprocated by the corporation itself. Caldari Megas pride themselves on providing cradle to the grave provision of housing, education, healthcare... All the functions that American corporations neglect and that even the US State and Central governments seem to want nothing to do with.
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ITs a cyberpunk 2020 thing.
Megacorps, everyone works for oen or they;re an outsider, the monetary unit being the "New Yen" - Cyebrpunk 2020 was a blend of California and Japan + Corporate Empires, cybernetics, insanity, and junk. (sleeping in tiny coffin beds, etc, no space for people, arcologies, creches, etc).
And EVe is Cyberpunk in space. So when you blend the tropes, you can see that aspect on the surface of the Caldari, and it is one of the paths a brain can take as to what they are.
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Granted, but part of the whole dystopian thing about Cyberpunk was the fact that the faceless corporations that came to America to run the show were foreign.
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I have seen a few posts in this thread that make assumptions which are patently untrue about the Caldari. Other posters have then built off these assumptions, and part the discussion seems to now be taking them for granted.
One of them is the assumption that the Caldari are 'homogeneous'.
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Granted, but part of the whole dystopian thing about Cyberpunk was the fact that the faceless corporations that came to America to run the show were foreign.
If you are talking about Shadowrun, that's not actually true. Ares Macrotechnology, the biggest and most powerful megacorp, is based in the United States. Saeder-Krupp is German. Aztechnology started in Mexico-ish. And even of the Japanese megas, one is run (and partly owned) by an American (Fuchi).
As well, something that some cyberpunk authors have noted is that a cyberpunk future isn't necessarily dystopian for everyone, just for the outcasts. Incidentally, CCP may have theoretically based some parts of Caldari society on Japanese and Finnish cultures, but - in my opinion - anyone who reads something like Shadowrun: Corporate Shadowfiles will quickly find the true source of their inspiration. But even if some Icelanders did decide to create a fictional society based on those cultures, that is no guarantee that either they got it wrong, or that the fiction has mutated.
I intend to do a much longer post on the subject, but I need to allot some time to it, and I do actually like to occasionally play Eve. :P
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Nah, I was actually basing it off Cyberpunk 2020 and William Gibson's body of work in the Cyberpunk Genre.
Shadowrun was fun to play and an interesting universe in its own right but it wasn't pure CYBERPUNK imo.
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honestly, I'd kill for a good Cyberpunk campaign.
Never played Shadowrun.. to me it was Cyberpunk with magic, which defeated the purpose of Cyberpunk.
Actually got to play a camapign with the writers GMing it at a Gencon one year. *geekoutmoment*
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As for America, there really are few direct comparisons that I can see beyond the whole 'Corporations as people' shtick. The actual corporations themselves in the State are tied into the culture of the State and they firmly believe that the duty that is owed them by their employees ought to be reciprocated by the corporation itself. Caldari Megas pride themselves on providing cradle to the grave provision of housing, education, healthcare... All the functions that American corporations neglect and that even the US State and Central governments seem to want nothing to do with.
There are examples of corporations providing many of those services in the United States in the past (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_town). Their decline is attributed to increased equality and mobility among the working class (in the article). Because framed another way, in a company town, there is no choice in housing, education, healthcare, etc.
One of them is the assumption that the Caldari are 'homogeneous'.
While I agree with you, we do not agree with the most recent CCP published PF.
The Caldari State is an ethnically homogeneous nation relatively speaking, with 95-99% of its accounted-for citizens originating from Caldari Prime. The majority of this figure is split between the Civire and Deteis almost equally, though it does include some Gallente, with the latter adopting the ways of the former groups. Although the Civire and Deteis are proud of their heritage and the subtle social distinction between the two, both of these groups consider them to be of one Caldari race[3]. The corporations emphasize this in their enculturation process, enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion. The Caldari are monolingual for these reasons. Although dialects exist depending on location, the corporations ensure that these linguistic variations do not prevent all Caldari citizens from being capable of fully understanding one another.
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In B4 Kat batters Orange over the difference between ethnic homogenity (which the State absolutely aims for) and cultural homogenity, which is what we've been discussing.
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I don't even have to, really. The difference should be obvious, especially to Dex. He does bold out some more relevant lines below though.
PF talks about "enforcing a single Caldari culture and identity for the purposes of unity and cohesion", including being monolingual. Meanwhile, other aspects of PF clearly draw stark differences between various megacorporate cultures. Not only that, but even strong dialects and accents are referenced in PF.
There may be a single unifying "Caldari culture", but that does not mean Caldari culture is homogeneous. Arguing semantics? Not really. There is a distinct difference.
Do you really believe that a group of Executives living in the Forge speak and work and play and think the same way as a group of Laborers living in Lonetrek? Or a group of Scientists confined to their labs and kept under close guard by the authorities? How about some frontiersmen paving the roads in Black Rise for the 30th time after another bombing?
Do you think Ishukone citizens feel the same way about Gallente as Kaalakiota citizens? Do you think the same types of food are enjoyed in Piekura (0.5 Lonetrek) as in Jita (1.0 Forge)? Do you think the same sorts of music are played in the homes of Chief Executives as in Technicians? Do they buy the same styles of clothing?
In a nation with trillions of people spread over thousands of planets, a homogeneous culture is unlikely at best, impossible at worst. They may all be Caldari, but they are not all the same or even alike, which is what homogeneous means.
The PF is written with generalities in mind. They do not write the articles to cater to every nuance of Caldari culture. They cannot dedicate the time towards writing about the above differences. They can only barely spare the time to write out the differences between varying major houses, megas, tribes, bloodlines, etc. There is simply too much macro-level detail to still be written for them to talk about what a Laborer in Piak would eat for lunch on a Sunday. With that understanding in mind, YOU as the reader must understand that certain assumptions must be made off a realistic basis - and one of those is the sheer scale of something the size of the State. I see more variation in the 6,000 population town I live in than I do in Caldari PF, because CCP simply can't write enough to accurately depict it.
You'll just have to use your imagination and not read every PF line and word so literally.
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In B4 Kat batters Orange over the difference between ethnic homogenity (which the State absolutely aims for) and cultural homogenity, which is what we've been discussing.
Ethnicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group) and culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_heritage) are tied together.
Ethnicity or ethnic group is a socially defined category of people who identify with each other based on a shared social experience or ancestry.[1] Membership of an ethnic group tends to be associated with shared cultural heritage, ancestry, history, homeland, language (dialect) or ideology, and with symbolic systems such as religion, mythology and ritual, cuisine, dressing style, physical appearance, etc.
And as I said, I agree that there shouldn't be cultural homogeneity in the State, just that PF disagrees with the sentiment.
However, others disagree based on the more recent PF. (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=5396.msg88495#msg88495) And it does not matter how I interpret it, but how the majority interpret it. I am not going to fight an up-hill battle to convince people that it is one way or another.
I have had the storyline clarified in various news articles for me in the past year such that I do not think my understanding of the State matters and my entire position destroyed by CCP. I lost, others won.
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I think I've already addressed Gottii's perspective on the situation. He, by the way, is not 'the majority'.
Most Caldari players I've RP'd with have subscribed to the same viewpoint you and I share - and they are the ones that matter. Everybody else can be dismissed as ignorant or insane IC. Minmatar, Amarr, and Gallente don't really matter IC, nor do their OOC perceptions. That's the luxury of playing an insular and almost xenophobic culture. Everybody else can be wrong.
As long as a vast majority of Caldari roleplayers agree on certain interpretation of Caldari PF - damn the rest.
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Every bloc is pretty much the same with that tbh. How Amarrian mains play Amarrians are definitely different than how people who haven't read the swaths of PF percieve them.
And yeh Gallentes all wear transparent clothes and Caldari and jackboots and minmatars are screaming heathens. Till you talk to them and learn about them IC.
That's that roleplay is. Its not just reading the PF but also interacting with people who portray it in different ways. And then the fun part is getting interesting and soemtimes hilariously wrong views of a culture.
For example, Ari is nearly convinced that if youre attracted to someone in Caldari culture, you should punch them in the face to show it. ;)
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Closer to reality than you'd think.... :)
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Hmm.. may one day need to practice my left hook. >.>
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Why, Doctor!
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I have seen a few posts in this thread that make assumptions which are patently untrue about the Caldari. Other posters have then built off these assumptions, and part the discussion seems to now be taking them for granted.
Isn't that something that happens within all factions though?
Few people really look into the backstory/research/PF of a faction that isn't their own.
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I have seen a few posts in this thread that make assumptions which are patently untrue about the Caldari. Other posters have then built off these assumptions, and part the discussion seems to now be taking them for granted.
Isn't that something that happens within all factions though?
Few people really look into the backstory/research/PF of a faction that isn't their own.
This is true to a degree, Amarr and Caldari are what excite me in EVE and I generally look into them deeply, when it comes to Gallente I look into them a bit and then with Minmatar I'm generally absent.
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I have seen a few posts in this thread that make assumptions which are patently untrue about the Caldari. Other posters have then built off these assumptions, and part the discussion seems to now be taking them for granted.
Isn't that something that happens within all factions though?
Few people really look into the backstory/research/PF of a faction that isn't their own.
I usually take a look in most, though I still have one demographics article to read thoroughly I think...
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For example, Ari is nearly convinced that if youre attracted to someone in Caldari culture, you should punch them in the face to show it. ;)
Considering the track record of three of my characters, they should all be convinced that if a Caldari kills you, they must really love you. :D
(Maris, however, is way too sane for that nonsense.)
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Nah, I was actually basing it off Cyberpunk 2020 and William Gibson's body of work in the Cyberpunk Genre.
Shadowrun was fun to play and an interesting universe in its own right but it wasn't pure CYBERPUNK imo.
As far as Cyberpunk 2020 goes I think you are overlooking Militech, Petrochem, Network News 54, Diverse Media Systems, Microtech, Trauma Team International and the Lazarus Group. Or at least those are the ones that quickly come to mind as largely US originating megas.
The dystopia in that game isn't nasty foreigners taking over the USA, it's nasty humans destroying their world and being horrible to each other in the name of power. Oh and forgetting to be human at all.
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Nah, I was actually basing it off Cyberpunk 2020 and William Gibson's body of work in the Cyberpunk Genre.
Shadowrun was fun to play and an interesting universe in its own right but it wasn't pure CYBERPUNK imo.
As far as Cyberpunk 2020 goes I think you are overlooking Militech, Petrochem, Network News 54, Diverse Media Systems, Microtech, Trauma Team International and the Lazarus Group. Or at least those are the ones that quickly come to mind as largely US originating megas.
The dystopia in that game isn't nasty foreigners taking over the USA, it's nasty humans destroying their world and being horrible to each other in the name of power. Oh and forgetting to be human at all.
I should probably look into this. I love topics that goes along the lines of "what does it mean to be Human" because there is no clear answer to that question and likely never will be.
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I thought with all the love of State authoritarianism, corporate oligarchs, military conscription, intolerance towards minorities and homophobia the Caldari are in fact modern Russia?
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I thought with all the love of State authoritarianism, corporate oligarchs, military conscription, intolerance towards minorities and homophobia the Caldari are in fact modern Russia?
Which, if true, would be deeply ironic given the Finnish associations. I can see your point though.
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I thought with all the love of State authoritarianism, corporate oligarchs, military conscription, intolerance towards minorities and homophobia the Caldari are in fact modern Russia?
Which, if true, would be deeply ironic given the Finnish associations. I can see your point though.
I was joking, because it's really quite easy to draw parallels with the game factions and the real world. Such as:
Caldari lived on a world surrounded by snow.
Icelanders live on an island surrounded by snow.
Caldari are Icelandic.
It's just apples and oranges stuff.
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I still insist that Singapore = RL Caldari State. <_<
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I still insist that Singapore = RL Caldari State. <_<
You are serious? Singapore only has one megacorp: The Singapore Government. There's no competing megacorps on this island.
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I still insist that Singapore = RL Caldari State. <_<
You are serious? Singapore only has one megacorp: The Singapore Government. There's no competing megacorps on this island.
Yup. The Singapore Government is the Kaalakiota equivalent. Singapore has no lack of MNCs gobbling up the place, and aside from the lack of diversity of megacorps, in terms of culture I think the contemporary world is hard-pressed to find any other kind of people who are similar in culture with the Caldari. Look at all that social engineering we've had!
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I still insist that Singapore = RL Caldari State. <_<
You are serious? Singapore only has one megacorp: The Singapore Government. There's no competing megacorps on this island.
Yup. The Singapore Government is the Kaalakiota equivalent. Singapore has no lack of MNCs gobbling up the place, and aside from the lack of diversity of megacorps, in terms of culture I think the contemporary world is hard-pressed to find any other kind of people who are similar in culture with the Caldari. Look at all that social engineering we've had!
My favourite memory of Singapore was my first time there, seeing a sign saying something along the lines of put all gum in the bin while a paramilitary police type with an assault rifle stood next to said bin under the sign.
Also, Davlos, does this mean all Caldari men are pussywhipped and have to carry their girlfriend's handbags everywhere?
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I still insist that Singapore = RL Caldari State. <_<
You are serious? Singapore only has one megacorp: The Singapore Government. There's no competing megacorps on this island.
Yup. The Singapore Government is the Kaalakiota equivalent. Singapore has no lack of MNCs gobbling up the place, and aside from the lack of diversity of megacorps, in terms of culture I think the contemporary world is hard-pressed to find any other kind of people who are similar in culture with the Caldari. Look at all that social engineering we've had!
My favourite memory of Singapore was my first time there, seeing a sign saying something along the lines of put all gum in the bin while a paramilitary police type with an assault rifle stood next to said bin under the sign.
Also, Davlos, does this mean all Caldari men are pussywhipped and have to carry their girlfriend's handbags everywhere?
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Maybe that part of Singaporean culture ought to be ommitted. <_< When I go dating, I tell the woman to carry her own shit or GTFO. It may still explain how I'm single even though I'm not in-country for 11 out of 12 months of the year. :X
But yes, having a sign that demands you to place all your litter in the bin with a state security dude with an assault rifle to enforce that law is exactly what Singaporean society is like. We're all pussywhipped by the law. ;__;
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FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
Maybe that part of Singaporean culture ought to be ommitted. <_< When I go dating, I tell the woman to carry her own shit or GTFO. It may still explain how I'm single even though I'm not in-country for 11 out of 12 months of the year. :X
But yes, having a sign that demands you to place all your litter in the bin with a state security dude with an assault rifle to enforce that law is exactly what Singaporean society is like. We're all pussywhipped by the law. ;__;
From my few months spent in Singapore I also quickly learned that the only surefire way to a Singapore woman's heart is to bring along your CV, know exactly where you're going to be in five years, and treat every date like a job interview. Some might think I'm joking now though, but there was a reason I had to pretend I was a HSBC banker for six months there. Thank God for friends that could provide the references.
My Deteis lady Executive I play is in fact a Singapore woman, I think.
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FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
Maybe that part of Singaporean culture ought to be ommitted. <_< When I go dating, I tell the woman to carry her own shit or GTFO. It may still explain how I'm single even though I'm not in-country for 11 out of 12 months of the year. :X
But yes, having a sign that demands you to place all your litter in the bin with a state security dude with an assault rifle to enforce that law is exactly what Singaporean society is like. We're all pussywhipped by the law. ;__;
From my few months spent in Singapore I also quickly learned that the only surefire way to a Singapore woman's heart is to bring along your CV, know exactly where you're going to be in five years, and treat every date like a job interview. Some might think I'm joking now though, but there was a reason I had to pretend I was a HSBC banker for six months there. Thank God for friends that could provide the references.
My Deteis lady Executive I play is in fact a Singapore woman, I think.
If that's the case, she needs to be a class A gold-digger who would ditch Davlos in favor of Verone because Davlos doesn't even have a carrier (car in RL terms), and Verone has trillions of ISK. :<
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FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
Maybe that part of Singaporean culture ought to be ommitted. <_< When I go dating, I tell the woman to carry her own shit or GTFO. It may still explain how I'm single even though I'm not in-country for 11 out of 12 months of the year. :X
But yes, having a sign that demands you to place all your litter in the bin with a state security dude with an assault rifle to enforce that law is exactly what Singaporean society is like. We're all pussywhipped by the law. ;__;
From my few months spent in Singapore I also quickly learned that the only surefire way to a Singapore woman's heart is to bring along your CV, know exactly where you're going to be in five years, and treat every date like a job interview. Some might think I'm joking now though, but there was a reason I had to pretend I was a HSBC banker for six months there. Thank God for friends that could provide the references.
My Deteis lady Executive I play is in fact a Singapore woman, I think.
If that's the case, she needs to be a class A gold-digger who would ditch Davlos in favor of Verone because Davlos doesn't even have a carrier (car in RL terms), and Verone has trillions of ISK. :<
Verone is a filthy foreigner who would shame her grandparents, and whose only use is to build an offshore social network that would facilitate arms shipments for the ruling party to keep those damn Malay and Chinese from invading because they jelly at all that peninsula swag and mad trade revenues?
I mean those damn Gallentean dogs who try to export their filthy culture to corrupt the Kaalakiota youth from loving the Dear Executives.
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FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
Maybe that part of Singaporean culture ought to be ommitted. <_< When I go dating, I tell the woman to carry her own shit or GTFO. It may still explain how I'm single even though I'm not in-country for 11 out of 12 months of the year. :X
But yes, having a sign that demands you to place all your litter in the bin with a state security dude with an assault rifle to enforce that law is exactly what Singaporean society is like. We're all pussywhipped by the law. ;__;
From my few months spent in Singapore I also quickly learned that the only surefire way to a Singapore woman's heart is to bring along your CV, know exactly where you're going to be in five years, and treat every date like a job interview. Some might think I'm joking now though, but there was a reason I had to pretend I was a HSBC banker for six months there. Thank God for friends that could provide the references.
My Deteis lady Executive I play is in fact a Singapore woman, I think.
If that's the case, she needs to be a class A gold-digger who would ditch Davlos in favor of Verone because Davlos doesn't even have a carrier (car in RL terms), and Verone has trillions of ISK. :<
Verone is a filthy foreigner who would shame her grandparents, and whose only use is to build an offshore social network that would facilitate arms shipments for the ruling party to keep those damn Malay and Chinese from invading because they jelly at all that peninsula swag and mad trade revenues?
You're doing it wrong.
Verone is the filthy rich "Foreign Talent" who must be welcomed to the country so that he will spend and invest in the nation, thus hopefully having all that wealth trickle down to the masses (but it really doesn't). There is no shame in marrying a filthy rich foreigner.
The paranoia about Malaysia and Indonesia is just a creation and illusion cooked up by the ruling party to keep the people paranoid and afraid, so that the ruling party can stick their spurs deeper into the hides of the people.
Also, in order to keep wages low and to make sure that the masses are constantly busy so that they won't have any time and energy left for political activism, the ruling party must constantly import less-than-skilled white collar workers to compete in the local labor market in order to orchestrate a wage-depressing effect. The ruling party in the meantime must constantly call these imports: "Foreign Talent".
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FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
Maybe that part of Singaporean culture ought to be ommitted. <_< When I go dating, I tell the woman to carry her own shit or GTFO. It may still explain how I'm single even though I'm not in-country for 11 out of 12 months of the year. :X
But yes, having a sign that demands you to place all your litter in the bin with a state security dude with an assault rifle to enforce that law is exactly what Singaporean society is like. We're all pussywhipped by the law. ;__;
From my few months spent in Singapore I also quickly learned that the only surefire way to a Singapore woman's heart is to bring along your CV, know exactly where you're going to be in five years, and treat every date like a job interview. Some might think I'm joking now though, but there was a reason I had to pretend I was a HSBC banker for six months there. Thank God for friends that could provide the references.
My Deteis lady Executive I play is in fact a Singapore woman, I think.
If that's the case, she needs to be a class A gold-digger who would ditch Davlos in favor of Verone because Davlos doesn't even have a carrier (car in RL terms), and Verone has trillions of ISK. :<
Verone is a filthy foreigner who would shame her grandparents, and whose only use is to build an offshore social network that would facilitate arms shipments for the ruling party to keep those damn Malay and Chinese from invading because they jelly at all that peninsula swag and mad trade revenues?
You're doing it wrong.
Verone is the filthy rich "Foreign Talent" who must be welcomed to the country so that he will spend and invest in the nation, thus hopefully having all that wealth trickle down to the masses (but it really doesn't). There is no shame in marrying a filthy rich foreigner.
The paranoia about Malaysia and Indonesia is just a creation and illusion cooked up by the ruling party to keep the people paranoid and afraid, so that the ruling party can stick their spurs deeper into the hides of the people.
Also, in order to keep wages low and to make sure that the masses are constantly busy so that they won't have any time and energy left for political activism, the ruling party must constantly import less-than-skilled white collar workers to compete in the local labor market in order to orchestrate a wage-depressing effect. The ruling party in the meantime must constantly call these imports: "Foreign Talent".
I hope you're not writing that on Singapore soil because it sounds dangerously like you are not expressing adequate love and adoration for your Dear Prime Minister, citizen. He, who with his bare hands literally lifted the nation out of the swamp and marshes with the power of his will and vision alone.
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FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
Maybe that part of Singaporean culture ought to be ommitted. <_< When I go dating, I tell the woman to carry her own shit or GTFO. It may still explain how I'm single even though I'm not in-country for 11 out of 12 months of the year. :X
But yes, having a sign that demands you to place all your litter in the bin with a state security dude with an assault rifle to enforce that law is exactly what Singaporean society is like. We're all pussywhipped by the law. ;__;
From my few months spent in Singapore I also quickly learned that the only surefire way to a Singapore woman's heart is to bring along your CV, know exactly where you're going to be in five years, and treat every date like a job interview. Some might think I'm joking now though, but there was a reason I had to pretend I was a HSBC banker for six months there. Thank God for friends that could provide the references.
My Deteis lady Executive I play is in fact a Singapore woman, I think.
If that's the case, she needs to be a class A gold-digger who would ditch Davlos in favor of Verone because Davlos doesn't even have a carrier (car in RL terms), and Verone has trillions of ISK. :<
Verone is a filthy foreigner who would shame her grandparents, and whose only use is to build an offshore social network that would facilitate arms shipments for the ruling party to keep those damn Malay and Chinese from invading because they jelly at all that peninsula swag and mad trade revenues?
You're doing it wrong.
Verone is the filthy rich "Foreign Talent" who must be welcomed to the country so that he will spend and invest in the nation, thus hopefully having all that wealth trickle down to the masses (but it really doesn't). There is no shame in marrying a filthy rich foreigner.
The paranoia about Malaysia and Indonesia is just a creation and illusion cooked up by the ruling party to keep the people paranoid and afraid, so that the ruling party can stick their spurs deeper into the hides of the people.
Also, in order to keep wages low and to make sure that the masses are constantly busy so that they won't have any time and energy left for political activism, the ruling party must constantly import less-than-skilled white collar workers to compete in the local labor market in order to orchestrate a wage-depressing effect. The ruling party in the meantime must constantly call these imports: "Foreign Talent".
I hope you're not writing that on Singapore soil because it sounds dangerously like you are not expressing adequate love and adoration for your Dear Prime Minister, citizen. He, who with his bare hands literally lifted the nation out of the swamp and marshes with the power of his will and vision alone.
No sir-ee! I've been in 'Murrica for the past 2.5 years.
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I still insist that Singapore = RL Caldari State. <_<
You are serious? Singapore only has one megacorp: The Singapore Government. There's no competing megacorps on this island.
Yup. The Singapore Government is the Kaalakiota equivalent. Singapore has no lack of MNCs gobbling up the place, and aside from the lack of diversity of megacorps, in terms of culture I think the contemporary world is hard-pressed to find any other kind of people who are similar in culture with the Caldari. Look at all that social engineering we've had!
My favourite memory of Singapore was my first time there, seeing a sign saying something along the lines of put all gum in the bin while a paramilitary police type with an assault rifle stood next to said bin under the sign.
Also, Davlos, does this mean all Caldari men are pussywhipped and have to carry their girlfriend's handbags everywhere?
FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU
Maybe that part of Singaporean culture ought to be ommitted. <_< When I go dating, I tell the woman to carry her own shit or GTFO. It may still explain how I'm single even though I'm not in-country for 11 out of 12 months of the year. :X
But yes, having a sign that demands you to place all your litter in the bin with a state security dude with an assault rifle to enforce that law is exactly what Singaporean society is like. We're all pussywhipped by the law. ;__;
Back when I was in Polytechnic, my classmates used to joke that SWAT will drop from the ceiling if we ever stick gum to the underside of the table. Needless to say, this is false. I think that is an oddly placed dustbin, because I hardly see State-Sec types standing near the bins with the 'No-Litter' sign. However, being forced to do community service for littering is unfortunately very true.
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I have no idea what's going on in this thread, except I think Veikitamo just impregnated Davlos or something. :eek: