Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => Moderation Discussion => Topic started by: Vikarion on 16 Mar 2011, 23:50
-
It's widely known in the State militia that you guys have cooperated, helped, and worked with GalMil. We don't need those kind of "friends", in my personal opinion.
To be quite honest, due to your consistent friendliness towards the Gals, neither I nor my character see you as loyal to the State or even Ishukone, but just as an opportunistic alliance displaying a logo that misleads people as to your purpose. However, that's my viewpoint - I'm not saying your RP is wrong, just what it looks like to me.
Please review the FAQ and Guidelines when posting.
Words and phrases to avoid:
"It's obvious" or "It's self-evident" or any other version of same. Generally, things that are self-evident, aren't. Try 'I thought [evidence] indicated that...' Don't have any evidence? "I've got the general impression that..."
"To be honest..." This is a reliable indicator that the writer is about to say something rude, and is covering themselves with "But I'm just being honest!". Try being honest AND tactful.
"I'm sorry, but ..." Again, a reliable indicator that that writer is about to say something rude. Take a moment, and phrase your thought in a way that doesn't require an apology. Also on the same lines: "I have to say that ..." and "I can't help feeling that..."
Words or phrases to practice using:
"It's my opinion that ..." Yes, we all know that you wouldn't be posting it if it wasn't your opinion. But phrases like "I think.." help remind the writer that it IS just an opinion, not The Way Things Are, and they let your reader know that you've taken the time to remember that.
"That's certainly one way to look at it, but I tend to ..." or "I can see how you'd reach that conclusion, but I tend to put more weight on ..." are useful phrases that let the reader know you respect their right to have an opinion, even if you have a different one.
Further problems may lead to stronger moderator action.
It is not reasonable to assume that, since using a particular phrase is sometimes a clue to impending rudeness, that all uses of that phrase thereby make the whole statement rude. While the statement is on the "list to avoid", it's explicitly listed as a clue that you may be about to make a mistake, not that the literary device that it is is rude in and of itself. I was both honest an tactful - not rude. This is blindly enforcing not so much even the letter of the law so much as just looking for a way to yell at me - the spirit of the rule is completely disregarded.
That kind of moderation is not an asset to this board, or any board.
Nor is my statement rude or otherwise in violation of posting rules. I made it abundantly clear that this was my view as a member of the Caldari Militia, on the reliability of I-RED as an ally, not on their RP, their view of Ishukone, or how they should play the game. I used two subjective modifiers - "viewpoint" and "personal opinion" - to make that absolutely clear, that this was in no way an attack on the validity of their RP, their right to play how they want, or their personal character. All it meant is that I understand CalMil shooting at them.
I know that Casiella has pacifist beliefs/tendencies, but if noting a desire to shoot someone else's internet spaceships is a violation of this board's rules, it's hard to see how it can be about Eve.
-
Yup, we all hate it when we got warned or modded. :/
-
Yup, we all hate it when we got warned or modded. :/
I only hate it when it's not deserved. This isn't. If you can't comment on one's own viewpoint, there's no point to a forum.
-
Reviewing the post in question, I support Casiella's action and may have taken stronger action myself had I been the one to do it. As it is your post wasn't modded, nor were you warned - Casiella simply posted to remind that your post was near the line, which in my opinion it is. It includes statements about the authenticity of another organization's motives, among other things.
Saying it is your personal opinion doesn't mitigate that.
-
*sigh* Very well. It's gone.
Moderation of my statements seems to be getting stricter, and since I cannot see an objective standard by which they are being judged, I'll be moving along (leaving the forum). Cheers. 8)
-
Your post wasn't moderated. Good luck elsewhere, though.
-
But then, shouldn't most posts based upon personal opinion be modded? If you're to stick to the rule.
Really, I'm lazy and love the 'it's obvious' prefix. But then, I'm usually saying 'it's obvious your intellect is sub par', so I guess it's good think.
I can understand /tbh poasts because it's a st00pid expression. What, are you in the habit of lying most of the tiem and this is one of the few instances you're not throwing bovine faeces into our faces?
Meh, rant off before I get shouted at.
-
Personally, I didn't think Vik had crossed the line but had gotten close to it. That's why I just posted a reminder rather than anything further. And I'm disappointed that my old friend took it the way he has, but if any moderator were to make decisions based on whether they liked the poster (as I do with Vik) then we'd certainly be in a bad spot.
-
:(
-
I think the key point to mention here is that while opinion about stories and fiction is fine, opinions about others play styles and/or public image, unless requested, is not generally a welcome subject. It tends to lead down the "ur doing it wrong" or flame bait path that isn't really conducive to constructive discussion.
-
'welcome subject'? Oh, so suddenly an opinion on your own publicly stated ways and views are completely above reproach? I'm with Vikarion on this one. I looked over the quoted stuff and the thread in question as much as I could, and found nothing toeing the line. If everything you do and say is supposed to be barred from commenting on, there'll never be improvement, discourse or even just conversation on a topic.
Vikarion gave his views and opinions on a subject, tactfully and from a very polite and calm pose. I didn't see a single breach of any of the rules on the site after looking back and forth between quoted content and the rules page quite a few times.
The moderators need to start remembering that even just a warning like that will stifle and discourage the posters in question from bothering to add content and discussion to the board. In this case, it's showing quite clearly that one of the more decent players (and roleplayer) in Eve just got effectively chased off this community for absolutely no reason at all.
Good going, moderators. You're really doing your jobs quite well, prohibiting good players and people from adding to the community in favor of inane dribble with no substance. Thumbs up. Oh wait... that's not what moderators are here for, is it? Moderators are here to keep order and prohibit harmful content, discussions and opinions from polluting the boards.
Maybe it's time to review the thresholds used before throwing around warnings and such, hmm?
-
He was neither warned nor moderated, just reminded that he was nearing the edge. If a friendly reminder not to go any further is enough to drive him off, well, that's not the mods' fault. It's unfortunate that Vikarion left, but I don't think his response was a proportionate reaction to the level of 'censure' he experienced. Which, again, isn't the mods' fault.
-
Official or not, a warning is a warning. When he's broken no rules and been very tactful and polite, moderators wiggling fingers is unnecessary and stifling.
-
'welcome subject'? Oh, so suddenly an opinion on your own publicly stated ways and views are completely above reproach? I'm with Vikarion on this one. I looked over the quoted stuff and the thread in question as much as I could, and found nothing toeing the line. If everything you do and say is supposed to be barred from commenting on, there'll never be improvement, discourse or even just conversation on a topic.
Vikarion gave his views and opinions on a subject, tactfully and from a very polite and calm pose. I didn't see a single breach of any of the rules on the site after looking back and forth between quoted content and the rules page quite a few times.
The moderators need to start remembering that even just a warning like that will stifle and discourage the posters in question from bothering to add content and discussion to the board. In this case, it's showing quite clearly that one of the more decent players (and roleplayer) in Eve just got effectively chased off this community for absolutely no reason at all.
Good going, moderators. You're really doing your jobs quite well, prohibiting good players and people from adding to the community in favor of inane dribble with no substance. Thumbs up. Oh wait... that's not what moderators are here for, is it? Moderators are here to keep order and prohibit harmful content, discussions and opinions from polluting the boards.
Maybe it's time to review the thresholds used before throwing around warnings and such, hmm?
Well, first of all, I'm not a moderator, just some person that posts occasionally on the boards. I'm fairly certain my opinion is not super important about the oh-so-vital discussions about roleplay in EVE-Online, but I like to post when it matters to me. Feel free to take a look at the signature sometime and really let it sink in.
If you want to be technical, the post was pretty much an off-topic diatribe by the player about his perception of someone's alliance and corporation rather than a discussion about where the progress of events in caldari FW would actually go. So yeah, opinions are fine, but not an excuse to rail on the person that in no way relates to the topic at hand.
People come here to discuss roleplay current events and practices in general, not to hear every mouth with a personal critique about someone else's behavior. If you can't understand how to have a discussion without making it personal, well, that's not my problem. It will be with the moderators when you push it too far. If he didn't deserve the warning in the original post, this one certainly merits it with his personal attacks against a moderator.
:P
-
Miz, I recognize the fact that you and I disagree on Vik's post (and probably some others, no doubt). And I absolutely respect your opinion and greatly appreciate the manner in which you chose to express it here in this thread. You provide a great example of how members of the board can hold different opinions of an issue and perhaps even each other without devolving into rude flaming and worse.
I will note, however, that my response in question did note the specific guidelines that were either crossed or, in my view, came very close to being crossed. In general, when we post a mod comment in a thread (versus our own normal, personal posts), it's not because somebody has clearly broken the rules. I didn't believe Vik had done so in this case; had that happened, we PM the user in question and note a formal warning, then track appropriately. In this case, my post was specifically intended simply to keep things cool before they exploded.
Obviously, I failed in that regard. I accept responsibility for not making things clearer, and I strongly regret that Vik - a former CEO, longtime friend, and someone for whom one of my most-used ships is named - felt so hurt by my actions that he felt the need to delete his account during the night while I was asleep.He did not send me a message or even give me a chance to respond due to the rapidity and specific timing of his actions.
Perhaps we could have found a way to make things right and reach a better understanding, but we can't know that now. So I do not accept responsibility for his decision, nor do I believe he would expect me to do so. He's a big boy, after all. ;) :P
Miz makes a larger point, though, and an important one: whether or not an individual receives a formal warning (a possible precursor to a suspension or ban), members certainly may perceive a moderator's comment as an informal warning. That's not incorrect, of course, and obviously when we post like that we want to affect the shape and tone of the discussion. As the FAQ observes, this is subjective and fluid. I try my hardest to be as fair and objective as I can, but I'm only human. Actually, if anything, the fact that I've always liked Vikarion probably meant that I took it easier in this case than some other moderator might have (as Silver notes above). So perhaps the real mistake was that I took the "easy route" rather than issue a formal warning in private.
In any case, my goal and that of the rest of the staff isn't to keep people from saying what they think, Lord knows. I'm not so foolish as to think that's even possible, nor am I quite so arrogant as to believe that only opinions that match mine should matter. It's simply to provide a place where the demeanor and character of the discussions can adhere to a particular tone.
Vik isn't the first person to choose to leave Backstage, and it's unlikely he'll be the last. As disappointed as I am in that, I'd rather have someone choose to leave if they feel the tone encouraged here doesn't fit them. Ideally, they'd not do so, but if we come down to Hobson's choice, then I suppose that's just how things will be, unfortunately.
-
If you want to be technical, the post was pretty much an off-topic diatribe by the player about his perception of someone's alliance and corporation rather than a discussion about where the progress of events in caldari FW would actually go. So yeah, opinions are fine, but not an excuse to rail on the person that in no way relates to the topic at hand.
Umm... no.
To my knowledge, Vikarion and Hamish are the only two active members of the State Miliita (and thus Caldari FW) who posted in the thread titled "State of Caldari FW". It was not titled "Where I-RED might go."
Vikarion's post is a direct response to the initial post asking "Why would State Militia attack I-RED, we are Blue?" and the roleplay elements occurring on the other side of the in-game fight. He was not relating just his own perception of I-RED, but rather also what he thinks the State Militia's perception of I-RED is based on his experience in multiple State Militia corporations.
Hamish offered to "fix the issue" and Vikarion gave the other side's RP viewpoint; from that perspective, his is the only post on-topic.
-
That post getting modded seems fine considering this one (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=1923.msg24230#msg24230) is still up ;)
-
If you have an issue with a post, you should report it instead of posting about it here.
-
That post getting modded
This discussion is about a thread in which no post was modded.
-
My point was that I find Vikarion's post very prescriptive and assumptive of a player's motivation, so am in agreement of moderator action.
-
This discussion is about a thread in which no post was modded.
The post may not have been modded; but a mod entered the conversation and warned about the use of "to be honest."
When you made the post, I didn't understand what it was about, shrugged, and moved on. I didn't understand why the quote from the FAQ was posted until reading this thread.
-
It wasn't the simple use of the phrase, to be honest. :P In context, I noted that the post got really close to the line overall and wanted the discussion to stay on the right side.
If folks have additional questions they'd like answered or clarifications they need, I'm happy to answer them. But, as far as I can tell, we've explained everything, perhaps far more so than we should have, and I've publicly stated where I feel I did make mistakes. After all, isn't that the purpose of feedback in any direction, trying to explain one's position and perhaps lead to adjustments in future behavior?
Certainly, in the future, I'll be far clearer as to the reason for a mod post.