Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: kalaratiri on 27 Jan 2014, 11:39
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Don't know how many of you have been following the currect dick waving contest in Null, but things have just got serious in B-R5 in Immensea. Sov dropped and both sides have dropped supers and titans.
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=21598623
http://themittani.com/news/breaking-massive-supercap-battle-br-5
Half an hour in, approx. 400b isk destroyed, 90b of which comes from a Nulli Secunda Avatar. Apparently a PL Erebus is down as well, but I've yet to find a killmail.
Lets see how this develops :yar:
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I always forget things happen in null. I haven't been out there on a permanent basis in years.
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Apparently a third PL/N3 titan is down, although again I'm yet to see a killmail.
Edit:
And a fourth PL/N3 titan (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21599189), as well as one CFC Ragnarok.
2nd Edit:
Current count says 86 titans on the field all told, making it one of the largest supercap fights ever. This is in addition to more than 120 Nyx and over 75 Aeons.
3rd edit:
RAZOR Ragnarok (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21600003) down
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Thank the stars, the Nullbears are finally doing something interesting instead of sitting on their systems waiting to get bathponed on some lowsec scrubs.
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5th, 6th and 7th N3/PL titans down.
Also a CFC Erebus (http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21599493) (broken killmail, but the titan is really dead).
Up to 860b destroyed.
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When the odds of this actually impacting any wallets in a significant fashion are almost zero, the use of damage in ISK as a statistic seems like an exercise in irrelevance to me.
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When the odds of this actually impacting any wallets in a significant fashion are almost zero, the use of damage in ISK as a statistic seems like an exercise in irrelevance to me.
More just using it as an indicator of scale.
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(http://i.imgur.com/p2Vgpij.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/n3loOIn.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/cFcKyBR.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/BliznRR.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/6R1g1VT.jpg)
and my personal favorite :P
(http://i.imgur.com/Tgkg52B.jpg)
Full album can be found here: http://imgur.com/a/c3IM4
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Differening reports now, Goons say 10 PL/N3 titans down, PL/N3 say 8. Both sides agree on 4 Goon/RUS titans dead.
If the numbers seems surprising, it's because PL/N3 are focusing on dreads in an attempt to lower the incoming dps. There are a lot of dead dreads on both sides now.
Edit:
Make that 5 Goon/RUS titans.
2nd edit:
Large killboard update, losses now total 2 trillion.
3rd edit:
One of the the most expensive titans ever (https://zkillboard.com/detail/36240896/) dies, clocking in at 160b.
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PL claims they had enough in the wallet for it to pay. Either they're lying their faces off, or they had a spai. Either way, hilariously embarrassing, :smugsmug: probably deserved.
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Meh, these... blobs ? stacks ? piles ? are so.... aesthetically looking !
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Large space battles intrigue me, but looking at the images, I'm less inclined to try to see one or take part in one for some reason.
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Large space battles intrigue me, but looking at the images, I'm less inclined to try to see one or take part in one for some reason.
Max frame rate of 3fps >_>
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I think it is partly just the sheer ugliness of it. There's nothing anyone can do about it, but it is certainly off-putting. It looks like a kid just dumped his toybox onto the floor.
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To me, that's exactly what it should look like. Space is not a place for formation flying, space is huge. Just dump as many ships as possible onto grid and get down and dirty. Space battles should be messy and confusing and all over the place, nobody quite sure if they're winning or losing and ships exploding left, right and center.
I want a mess that nobody can untangle until it's finished, something that is tense and exciting while its happening, but that can be slotted into an overaching strategy once it's over.
In other news, RAZOR have taken sov in the system.
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There's messy and then there's enormous ships poking around in each other.
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Ah, the good old days of:
"Okay guys I've jumped in, what's going on?"
*Several hours later after spaceships by powerpoint, black screens, trying to load grid, disconnects, failing to login, and TiDi*
"Wow awesome, looks like I got podded and didn't even know after losing my capital! At least I got the t-shirt saying I was there."
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Here I am, unsubbed for this mess. Not like I'd have been able to do anything but sit a few systems away and watch the livestream myself anyway, but yeah.
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I've always said that EVE is "a game with spaceships" rather than "a spaceship game", especially with godawful screenshots like that :P
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Fourty
Eight
Titans
Dead
(http://i.imgur.com/gPW3OPO.gif)
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Fourty
Eight
Titans
Dead
(http://i.imgur.com/gPW3OPO.gif)
On one side. Fuzzeh's stream currently says PL/Nulli have killed 47, and CFC+RUS have killed 56.
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WTB Formation flying for chrissake.
Ever battles look -terrible- at these scales.
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Imagine ships autoshifting into formation position at 10% tidi. People wouldn't even USE a psuedoautopilot like that in combat (which a formation would force) - they won't even use it flying from system to system in Empire.
Also a ticke at he back of my brain hat even if they could make it smooth it would ezmode things and pilots in fleets would simply learn less skills. Like aligning to safeson their own etc, as they'd align with the gang leader automatically, in synchronicity. Etc. But I'm also tired.
The ships may LOOK like shit with no formation but formations, 2D ones, are as pointless as space-walls, and 3D ones would end up, once ships align to fireon taregts etc.. a bit like that. Its not hard to get a gang to fly and move in formation tbh. People don't bother for reasons of their own distance to targets/personal align points, etc.
Just for the actual individuality going on in EVE for each pilot even in 1000man fleetblobs .. after all, each ship can tend to be their own, their own ISK, their own responsibility, and again, formations to make sense would be placing control of your ships distance etc from gangleader... ehhhh... Pain for beauty is one thing but fleets welping cause a FC/wing commander/w/e does a fucktard fleet alignment move on everyone under their command at a shit time...
Id have that feature turned off myself. If my ship blows up I want it to be because of the speed/traversal/alignment *I* put it at, not at some FC who may have zero fucks to give about what the loss would do to me. All titans /whatevers aligned to the same safe = slower escape chances, no good if they all warp to the *same safes* or safes in a drag bubble line along the warptunnel. And not all fleets move their gangs to the same safes for that reason. Align time is precious seconds.
The preceeding is a fully uninformed opinion.
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This is still running (sort of) so the numbers aren't quite confirmed or settled yet, but depending on who you ask, anywhere between 60 and 90 titans have died, with dreadnought deaths being in the hundreds.
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It all depends, I guess. Formation flying is pretty useless in a Melee. When you have a decent engagement range you may not be impacted. Problem is always: Aside looking pretty, what do I get out of it? Because forced movement right now would just cause issues with tracking - and looking pretty is not as important as being efficient, after all.
However that could be worked around by allowing SCs/WCs/FCs to issue formation orders, that have to be followed (and accepted) down the chain and aside looking neat might offer ~leadership based bonuses dependant on type of formation, scaled by number of participating fleetmembers~. Much more fun than OGB. Also you can spot who's on track and who isn't. :p
But that's just food for thought.
Anyways, dead supers is good supers. Always nice to see those shiny toys used for more than just hotdropping some poor souls. :)
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Well, it's that way in EVE, probably because of the methods EVE uses for targeting and navigation. Formations are intensely important in any kind of highly tactical warfare, but EVE is a fairly old game and had to handle a LOT going on at any one time.
Hence, you can't really fly in formation because it doesn't necessarily matter where you are in it, targeting happens automatically (as opposed to having to manually aim and fire), navigation happens on its own, it isn't like fighters are dogfighting to try and protect their larger compatriots in a screen or people are trying to dive in and divide fleets to lessen incoming fire. That kind of thing just isn't possible on the scale EVE operates at, especially during the time it was first released.
Future games may find make it work, but they'll be far more complex just in sheer performance than EVE is.
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Formations only make any sense, when Line-of-Sight is important. Line-of-sight is very, very expensive and problematic for multiple clients with dissimilar latency.
Giving arbitrary bonuses like an extra +5% armour to an "armour formation", is just another thing that promotes large groups at the expense of small groups.
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So CCP just announced they're having a PLEX sale for Rubicon 1.1 (link (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/eve-online-rubicon-1.1-plex-sale/)).
And here's the header image for the news item:
(http://web.ccpgamescdn.com/newssystem/media/65699/1/ENG_communityNewsFeed.jpg)
Shots. Fired. :D
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Nice sale. :p
As for any group bonus: The bigger group is always at an advantage. If at all, a clever way to utilize such a formation/strategy system could give smaller groups an edge, as it is easier to get a high level of discipline out of a small group. In your typical blob you've got people being semi-afk, just tagging along, lagging behind. Depends highly on how such a system would get implemented. Autopilot-by-FC sure is something we don't need. vOv
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Confirmed numbers by CCP:
DD SW SF CFC DTF: 16 Titans lost, 3 super Carriers lost.
N3, PL, NCDOT, EMP: 59 Titans lost, 11 Super Carriers lost.
So, a total of 75 titans down and 14 supercarriers.
Not included in CCP's list is the ~325+ dead Dreads and ~130 carriers.
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Only 16 down for CFCRUS? I heard 25-30 elsewhere. I'm surprised that number is so low.
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I'm not sure what the solution is. There's just generally a difference between a 'fleet' looking space battle as you might see in popular fiction and the 'dumped the toybox' look of larger eve capital fights.
There must be some way of the game engine to subtlety encourage groupings of ships. Make it a gang feature that ships in certain formations start to have a synergy for x stats or whatever. Maybe not armor or shield but perhaps targeting efficiency or target broadcasting, who knows.
It just might be neat to see the larger capital fleets with some semblance of order, or even the smaller ships.
And I'd love for extra graphical business for ships that are aligned. 5 titans in a special alignment using doomsday gives you a super cool 'mega doomsday' effect where they all focus fire deathstar style or something. Don't tell me that wouldn't be cool?
(http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/death-star-7.jpg)
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I may or may not have been hitting F5 a lot at work yesterday. Fun seeing the counts! And I've got to say, it was hilarious reading TMC's updates-- an abject lesson in media literacy and spinmeistering.
Admittedly, by the end, no particular spin was needed-- but I wonder how much of PL's poor US TZ reinforcement showing was because people were using TMC as a news source, and TMC was reporting that N3/S2N staging systems were camped down.
Anyone else entertained by the tritanium price volatility in the last day? ;)
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I'm more entertained (and, really, pleased) by the fact that for all the horrible gameplay experience that that clusterfuck must have been, the rest of the cluster was chugging along just fine. Wouldn't have even known shit was going on if not for other people talking about it.
CCP's come a long way in that department, that's for sure.
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so wished CCP implemented a sort of "terrain" distribution across a system or constellation, and gravity thresholds so blobs could not go further than some arbitrary size.
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so wished CCP implemented a sort of "terrain" distribution across a system or constellation, and gravity thresholds so blobs could not go further than some arbitrary size.
This is extremely hard to implement because then it's all a matter of being the first fleet in system to push the maximum allowed group size and keep your enemies out. :/
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High quality footage courtesy of Rooks and Kings.
Don't worry, it's only 4 minutes long :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCK-E5AopVI
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I think strategically fights like this occur because there's no real need not to fight pitched battles and that it's rather easy to escalate an engagement once it starts so long as you're within jump range.
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I think strategically fights like this occur because there's no real need not to fight pitched battles and that it's rather easy to escalate an engagement once it starts so long as you're within jump range.
And getting within jump range isn't very difficult for coalitions of that size even if they're starting at the other end of the cluster.
Makes me wonder if perhaps jump drives need a special timer in Crimewatch. Wouldn't help too much once the fight is going on and is tidi'd to shit, but maybe it'd help slow down some of the force projection issues without completely wrecking the point of having a jump drive in the first place.
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I think strategically fights like this occur because there's no real need not to fight pitched battles and that it's rather easy to escalate an engagement once it starts so long as you're within jump range.
And getting within jump range isn't very difficult for coalitions of that size even if they're starting at the other end of the cluster.
Makes me wonder if perhaps jump drives need a special timer in Crimewatch. Wouldn't help too much once the fight is going on and is tidi'd to shit, but maybe it'd help slow down some of the force projection issues without completely wrecking the point of having a jump drive in the first place.
There's also the fact that CCP introduced the same dynamics as the old Naval arms race with Battleships, because the only thing that could conceivably engage a Battleship was another Battleship. In much the same way, once someone deploys hundreds of capitals/supercaps in Eve then the only counter is hundreds of capitals/supercaps.
This seems to have been contrary to what was said in RMR where Capitals were envisioned as niche support craft either supporting a subcap fleet with reps or making it easier to shoot towers. These days with a 1bil dread/carrier being relatively affordable it seems to have created the situation we're in now where sentry carriers can blap subcap fleets off the field and the only solution to that is dropping dreads because there's just too much HP on the field otherwise.
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Random aside, on the original topic. What I'd love to get from CCP is an estimate of the amount of hours of mining time required to construct the ships, assuming perfect efficiency mining with boosts, and perfect refining. All of the estimates so far are using PLEX prices as a means to convert to a common currency, which is nifty and all but still doesn't make the time investment completely clear to readers outside of EVE. Even if these ships have accumulated in surprising number in the past four or five years, they still represent a considerable accumulation of labor.
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I'm not sure what the solution is. There's just generally a difference between a 'fleet' looking space battle as you might see in popular fiction and the 'dumped the toybox' look of larger eve capital fights.
There must be some way of the game engine to subtlety encourage groupings of ships. Make it a gang feature that ships in certain formations start to have a synergy for x stats or whatever. Maybe not armor or shield but perhaps targeting efficiency or target broadcasting, who knows.
It just might be neat to see the larger capital fleets with some semblance of order, or even the smaller ships.
And I'd love for extra graphical business for ships that are aligned. 5 titans in a special alignment using doomsday gives you a super cool 'mega doomsday' effect where they all focus fire deathstar style or something. Don't tell me that wouldn't be cool?
(http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/death-star-7.jpg)
Well I would be in charge of the art direction, I would bang my head against my deck seeing this spilled toy box effect tbh.
They could just implement line of sight for example. Behind a friend or another target ? You can't fire on target unless you move around. It would force big formations to be clever and use different kind of formations to maximize the spread of their firepower. It would lead to pinch tactics, spherical formations, wall formations, etc.
The other issue is also that since they are in siege or triage for most of them, they do not move.
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Eve really doesn't have things like firing arcs to make tactical formations necessary to maximize firepower and the like nor does it take place at (relatively) long ranges where both distance and speed can be factors. Sure, if Eve spaceships had high speeds and low weapon ranges you'd probably see fleets having to maneuver around each other tactically in order to engage each other.
As it is Eve is just a reflection of the tools that are given. I'm also not sure why spaceship wars have to be "pretty" in any way either. Trafalgar probably wasn't pretty with it descending into a ship-of-the-line melee of sorts but in the end Nelson still beat the French.
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I find it rather pretty and majestuous, even if monstruous in some kind of way.
Eve spacefights feel completely bland in contrast.
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There's a reason I prefer small scale frig/dessie/cruiser PvP in Eve because it feels far more exciting and tactical where the situation can change rapidly and small decisions, like someone managing to intercept the orbit of that EWAR frig, or properly managing your range beyond other people's guns can actually have an impact on a fight beyond numbers, HP, and rep which are the only real considerations the larger a fight scales up.
I suppose it's just a question of what size PvP you enjoy and where you do it. That and if you're able to handle the fact that for me anyway, Eve isn't about war with the human drama, it's about war that's cold, clinical and calculating that is deliberately inhuman, distant, and on an industrial scale and method.
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I'm also not sure why spaceship wars have to be "pretty" in any way either.
If this were the case the devs wouldn't bother skinning any of the ships and we'd have a game without any graphic effects or ship models, they wouldn't ever upgrade the graphics engine, etc. Looks matter, appearances matter. How the ships look and interact when they shoot each other should matter, too.
Sometimes I really wish they'd hire a new senior dev that handled presentation and how the game world works visually.
There's a million smaller effects and tiny adjustments they could be adding to this game to make it truly appear alive and immersive.
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I'm also not sure why spaceship wars have to be "pretty" in any way either.
If this were the case the devs wouldn't bother skinning any of the ships and we'd have a game without any graphic effects or ship models, they wouldn't ever upgrade the graphics engine, etc. Looks matter, appearances matter. How the ships look and interact when they shoot each other should matter, too.
Sometimes I really wish they'd hire a new senior dev that handled presentation and how the game world works visually.
There's a million smaller effects and tiny adjustments they could be adding to this game to make it truly appear alive and immersive.
Personally I could care less what the ships look like, the Moa looks like a mutated and deformed duck but I'll fly it because it's effective. Same with any other ship. The only complaint I really had with most spaceships in Eve is not that they're not pretty but rather that they don't have a tendency to reflect actual function. I'd much rather a ship that's aesthetics is based on looking like coming out of industrial design to build something that will kill and destroy things as a tool of war than some modern art piece with engines attached to it.
I could even play Eve if they just had a sort of "enhanced tactical overview" that would remove the "camera drone" image and turn the game into a monochrome symbol representation system for spaceships.
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I could even play Eve if they just had a sort of "enhanced tactical overview" that would remove the "camera drone" image and turn the game into a monochrome symbol representation system for spaceships.
I Want! You could add all sorts of info to the display (arrows saying how fast and what direction a ship is going) ect. You could even make it actually be pretty in its own right.
Would love that so much.
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I could even play Eve if they just had a sort of "enhanced tactical overview" that would remove the "camera drone" image and turn the game into a monochrome symbol representation system for spaceships.
This needs to be a thing.
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I've also often wondered why there isn't a strategic fleet map, where for example you could track friendly fleets on the starmap and you could have FC's and Scouts do things like pin icons to systems with, "enemy fleet spotted" or a custom waypoint with, "Assemble at this system". It seems simple enough but the ability to actually have a strategic picture to manage in real-time might make it easier to have a few separate fleets out acting in concert.
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I could even play Eve if they just had a sort of "enhanced tactical overview" that would remove the "camera drone" image and turn the game into a monochrome symbol representation system for spaceships.
This needs to be a thing.
The horror.
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I could even play Eve if they just had a sort of "enhanced tactical overview" that would remove the "camera drone" image and turn the game into a monochrome symbol representation system for spaceships.
I Want! You could add all sorts of info to the display (arrows saying how fast and what direction a ship is going) ect. You could even make it actually be pretty in its own right.
Would love that so much.
I'm reminded of the overhead maps from the X-Wing and TIE games.
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I've also often wondered why there isn't a strategic fleet map, where for example you could track friendly fleets on the starmap and you could have FC's and Scouts do things like pin icons to systems with, "enemy fleet spotted" or a custom waypoint with, "Assemble at this system". It seems simple enough but the ability to actually have a strategic picture to manage in real-time might make it easier to have a few separate fleets out acting in concert.
+9000
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D'aww...
You guys are adorable. :o
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http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/22/dont-mention-it-germany-at-war-demo/
There's a reason that complicated games with simplistic graphics remain niche titles.
That being said a useful 'tactical' map for strategic purposes would be a nice addition.
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We may have our personal preferences, but the game does need serious work on its presentation from an objective standpoint. Why do they go to the trouble of upgrading all the ship models (like Crucifier most recently) if, for PvP, we have to be zoomed out as far as possible to be effective? Either they a) ditch the ship models completely or b) work on a system that allows us to actually see the ship (and those gun turrets they revamped too) during PvP. We might not care individually, but for anyone reviewing the game objectively, this seems like a pretty big deal from how I can see it.
BBC reported on the fight anyway (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25944837)
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They make the models pretty for the two dozen women who play, of course. >:)
*runs away*
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I've also often wondered why there isn't a strategic fleet map, where for example you could track friendly fleets on the starmap and you could have FC's and Scouts do things like pin icons to systems with, "enemy fleet spotted" or a custom waypoint with, "Assemble at this system". It seems simple enough but the ability to actually have a strategic picture to manage in real-time might make it easier to have a few separate fleets out acting in concert.
What? You mean have a tactical (grid/system), operational (system/constellation), and strategic (region/cluster) level activities? You mean having roles for recon ships*, maybe even squadrons? You mean maybe splitting forces to set traps or ambush travelling hostiles? Silliness
*Idea: Covert Cloak hides/removes the using ship/toon from local, but also disables local for said ship/toon, and maybe even disables D-scan. To actually provide intel on a hostile ship/force, you have to put eyeballs on them. :twisted:
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I want pretty things. Beauty over function is always the best policy. :cube:
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Dunno why but I read the title as "The Bass Drops"
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I want pretty things. Beauty over function is always the best policy. :cube:
You sir, are doing Caldari all wrong. :lol:
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I want pretty things. Beauty over function is always the best policy. :cube:
You sir, are doing Caldari all wrong. :lol:
YDIW SPOTTED!!
You should know better than this as you are a MOD and as such you're to hold yourself to a higher level of posting in order to be a shining beacon of light for others to look up to and see how posting is to be done.
WON'T SOMEONE, ANYONE, THINK OF THE CHILDREN??!?!?!+11+1+1+111111!!!
Also:
Reported!
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Check out the light show!
Initial escalation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvB2nRGMl2c
Almost synchronised jump-ins, and some concentrated doomsday fire :eek: unf.
Pretty lights :cube:
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Pretty lights :cube:
[spoiler](http://clubnotes.pmpblogs.com/files/2010/04/Pretty-Lights2.jpg)[/spoiler]
Pretty Lights :cube:
You sir, are doing Caldari all wrong. :lol:
So you're saying I shouldn't petition for missiles that leave a trail of glitter?
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And while I'm linking videos, this is what PL streamer Nick_Fuzzeh, Eve's latest hero, was doing during the fight.
http://www.twitch.tv/nick_fuzzeh/c/3628789
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Dunno why but I read the title as "The Bass Drops"
(http://i.imgur.com/yaiHX.gif)
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D'aww...
You guys are adorable. :o
what do you mean ?
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Just, having all this hope that CCP will put in all this effort to make the game you want.
EVE is well past the 'development' stage. The last 2 years of expansions have all been minor tweaks and polish.
For these things to happen, you'll need another company to attempt something as ambitious as EVE from the ground up, and no one has ever (seriously) tried to emulate/usurp EVE.
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Just, having all this hope that CCP will put in all this effort to make the game you want.
EVE is well past the 'development' stage. The last 2 years of expansions have all been minor tweaks and polish.
For these things to happen, you'll need another company to attempt something as ambitious as EVE from the ground up, and no one has ever (seriously) tried to emulate/usurp EVE.
I think you are confusing "hope" with wishful thinking and amusing discussion. I don't think anyone here is naive about Eve. (Totally rhymed)
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Ah, well, fair enough.
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Ah, well, fair enough.
Now, if you want to call me a stupid hopeful nub about WoD, I can't argue with you. WW became the sole proprietors of my immortal soul many years ago, and I am unable to squash my hope after the merger.
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We have almost no data to base any real guess of WoD's quality on at this point....
...well, except for CCP's gutting White Wolf (or 'CCP Atlanta') personnel every time they do another round of layoffs.
The MMO aside, I wonder if new content for the P&P/LARP versions of WoD are a thing of the past.
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Just, having all this hope that CCP will put in all this effort to make the game you want.
EVE is well past the 'development' stage. The last 2 years of expansions have all been minor tweaks and polish.
For these things to happen, you'll need another company to attempt something as ambitious as EVE from the ground up, and no one has ever (seriously) tried to emulate/usurp EVE.
*passes the pipe to Graelyn*
:D
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We have almost no data to base any real guess of WoD's quality on at this point....
...well, except for CCP's gutting White Wolf (or 'CCP Atlanta') personnel every time they do another round of layoffs.
The MMO aside, I wonder if new content for the P&P/LARP versions of WoD are a thing of the past.
There's a lot less book gaming around now that all the franchises are being used (ruined) in video games. I think Shadowrun is in its fifth edition. I'm not sure about the WoD games.
I think one of the biggest problems with WoD as a basis for an actual video game might be that it relies so heavily on drama and politicking. It's very much a storyteller's system, as opposed to your meat-and-potatoes, Tolkein-esque, gather-ye-mighty-heroes-and-enter-the-foreboding-dungeon that was a bit better translated into video games. I used to LARP a Giovanni businessman who essentially ran a ghost-removal service with advanced ash-path powers. I'm not sure how well that would translate.
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V:tM (as well as all of cWoD) has been completely done for many years now. The nWoD universe is still regularly published and at (in my opinion) the same high quality I expect out of WW.
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so you think there's not much development left in EVE, Graelyn ?
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No one knows the future. Things could change.
The last couple of years clearly define the present, though.
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The 2.1 "patch" for FFXIV:ARR offered more content than an entire "expansion" for EVE Online, at least the "expansions" for the past 2 years. The 2.2 "patch" is looking to be the same.
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The 2.1 "patch" for FFXIV:ARR offered more content than an entire "expansion" for EVE Online, at least the "expansions" for the past 2 years. The 2.2 "patch" is looking to be the same.
Good for them. A relatively new game give more content than one that has been running for 10 years, and the developers have stated that they are focused on rebalancing more than extra content at the moment? Gasp
Yes, Eve's latest 'expansions' haven't add new content. What it has done is made every ship ingame viable where previously you'd only see a very select number of ships flown. This is probably going to be the case for the next couple years at least, but now with a majority (all sub caps afaik?) tech one hulls passed at least once, they are now looking back at adding newer stuff.
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Tbh, Rebalance has created a lot of content for me in my little dirty corner. :)
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V:tM (as well as all of cWoD) has been completely done for many years now.
*Taps on his V20 - VtM 20th anniversary edition, and pointing to the coming new Anarchs book.*
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The 2.1 "patch" for FFXIV:ARR offered more content than an entire "expansion" for EVE Online, at least the "expansions" for the past 2 years. The 2.2 "patch" is looking to be the same.
Good for them. A relatively new game give more content than one that has been running for 10 years, and the developers have stated that they are focused on rebalancing more than extra content at the moment? Gasp
Yes, Eve's latest 'expansions' haven't add new content. What it has done is made every ship ingame viable where previously you'd only see a very select number of ships flown. This is probably going to be the case for the next couple years at least, but now with a majority (all sub caps afaik?) tech one hulls passed at least once, they are now looking back at adding newer stuff.
Yeah, this.
And yes, you're right - they've passed over all T1 subcaps. There's still a few T2 that are yet to get a pass (HICs, Recons, Logistics, Bombers, Black Ops, T2 industrials, JFs) and they'll probably give some of the already tiericided stuff another look as well.
CCP might not be generating a lot of new content (let's face it, they ARE generating some new content, even if it's not frequently interesting to or worth addressing in our RP) but I'd rather see an environment where players can pick up any ship and be at least semi-viable in combat with it instead of being shoehorned into a small handful of ships from day 1 because nothing else is useful or worth flying.
I mean, I loved the shit out of the Hurricane (still do), but there's a reason that a large chunk of my kills in Veto were while flying one, and it's not "because I liked flying them." Same with a lot of other ships.
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V:tM (as well as all of cWoD) has been completely done for many years now.
*Taps on his V20 - VtM 20th anniversary edition, and pointing to the coming new Anarchs book.*
Wait, you talking about Unbound? That's Onyx Path, not WW.
Edit: I am made of derp. I somehow missed the news that everything Onyx Path was doing is all fully licensed. I just thought this was awesome "extras" or something. This is what happens when you haven't had a group to play with for years, and just pick up stuff for the reading and creating of your own characters and stories that will never be played.
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Tbh, I don't understand how they need 6 months or more to just rebalance a part of the ships every time (not even the whole roster, just class by class !). It's like if they were all working on something else and actually doing that during their lunchtime. They even hired players like Fozzie to do that, ffs.
The worst imo, is that they actually just say BALANCE! and people will happily drink the coolaid with silly reasonings like "But I prefer them to take their time and have something good than to rush things up and get more crap !"
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They've got other projects they are working on. In my mind, it is always that simple. Good, bad, whatever. Other things are more important.
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Exactly, so even if they wanted to do actual new content, they couldn't really unless calling back all the people they sent away doing other important things because "oh well, they just want balance, no need for a huge budget on that one".
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I too do not understand how 'balance changes' are ever acceptable as 'new content'
Balance changes are changing the little numbers in the ship stats and bonuses. It requires a certain amount of dev attention from a small number of people and testing on sisi. It's not reinventing the wheel, it's changing one wheel for a slightly different one. This is not new content.
Does no one else think that there are perhaps other things that have taken the attention of the devs these last few years? Side games with the Eve IP, perhaps? All those eve programmers and artists are clearly working on other things.
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I too do not understand how 'balance changes' are ever acceptable as 'new content'
Balance changes are changing the little numbers in the ship stats and bonuses. It requires a certain amount of dev attention from a small number of people and testing on sisi. It's not reinventing the wheel, it's changing one wheel for a slightly different one. This is not new content.
Because for a good 7-8 years CCP has gone down the 'new content' route and left some pretty big messes in their wake. Sov, FW, COSMOS, new ship types all got added and then left to their own devices until the player base whined enough for them to listen. Now they are reiterating on these features and assets and the playerbase whines that not enough new stuff is being added. We've already seen a shift from them back to adding more stuff, with the new SoE ships, mobile structures, ghost sites and associated implants.
I guess it's a personal preference thing at the end of the day. My entertainment of the game has vastly increase in the last few expansions than any other that they have released.
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As far as new content, I was really expecting a space unicorn I could ride with a trial of glitter emanating from its raised tail. I will never forgive them for ignoring this wonderful opportunity.
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Realistically, I can't help but wonder if a lot of this time is spent untangling the mountains of old code at the core of many critical game features. That's something CCP is going to need to spend a LOT of time on if they want to try any more major overhauls.
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Realistically, I can't help but wonder if a lot of this time is spent untangling the mountains of old code at the core of many critical game features. That's something CCP is going to need to spend a LOT of time on if they want to try any more major overhauls.
Yeah. It took something like what, a year and a half, two years to fully redesign Crimewatch for this sort of reason.
Considering how badly the old system was tangled with everything else, the fact that they managed to have a more or less flawless rollout of the new system in Retribution says it was time well spent.
I can understand the desire for new content with every patch but given the state the game has been in for a number of years in terms of mechanics and gameplay, I can't really get too peeved by them focusing on non-content stuff in the major expansions.
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I too do not understand how 'balance changes' are ever acceptable as 'new content'
Balance changes are changing the little numbers in the ship stats and bonuses. It requires a certain amount of dev attention from a small number of people and testing on sisi. It's not reinventing the wheel, it's changing one wheel for a slightly different one. This is not new content.
Because for a good 7-8 years CCP has gone down the 'new content' route and left some pretty big messes in their wake. Sov, FW, COSMOS, new ship types all got added and then left to their own devices until the player base whined enough for them to listen. Now they are reiterating on these features and assets and the playerbase whines that not enough new stuff is being added. We've already seen a shift from them back to adding more stuff, with the new SoE ships, mobile structures, ghost sites and associated implants.
I guess it's a personal preference thing at the end of the day. My entertainment of the game has vastly increase in the last few expansions than any other that they have released.
It's not obligatory A OR B. It can be A + B.
They hired 2 players to rebalance stuff. Where are the other gamer designers ? Where are the artists ? The programmers ? What are they doing ?
Personally i'm not bitching for new content or not. Balance had to be done. But arguments brought here don't make sense to me.
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You might want to take a look at the game and try to come up with something that hasn't been touched post-Incarna.
Because that's easier than trying to explain to you what those "2 dudes" did.
Hint 1: It is a lot more than just shuffling numbers on those few (hundred) ships.
Hint 2: It is not limited to two designers.
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You might want to take a look at the game and try to come up with something that hasn't been touched post-Incarna.
Because that's easier than trying to explain to you what those "2 dudes" did.
Hint 1: It is a lot more than just shuffling numbers on those few (hundred) ships.
Hint 2: It is not limited to two designers.
Does it count when minor UI tweaks are added due to balancing efforts elsewhere? If so, Non-PI/Moon Goo industry mechanics and ui. There have been tweaks around the edges, largely related to things like PI, inventory updates, moon goo changes, but the core "game play" has remained unchanged. A single manufacturing job still takes something like 7+ clicks, much of it repeative or dictated by mechanics anyway.
It is also possible to add POSs to the list, minus fuel blocs and proximity requirements (which was tied to a more pervasive tweak).
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UI tweaks make already more sense. UI usually asks for a lot of work.
Hint 1: It is a lot more than just shuffling numbers on those few (hundred) ships.
Like what ?
Hint 2: It is not limited to two designers.
So there is even more of them on this ?
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Balancing makes me this excited. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2S7auiJFJs)
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I'm tempted to write a step-by-step guide that tries to explain the issue to three-year-olds, but something tells me you'd still be in the mood for what we can call debate for now.
Condensed version: The summary of the changes to the game post-Incarna is a bit more than editing some stats, part of them rebalancing, part of them revisiting or redesigning.