Backstage - OOC Forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

That  following several months of dedicated research, the Synenose Accord held a public and widely attended conference in the shattered Seyllin system, site of the tragic Seyllin Main-Sequence event? See more here

Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: Due Process in the Caldari State  (Read 2588 times)

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Due Process in the Caldari State
« on: 26 May 2013, 09:44 »

... Consists of what, exactly? It's clear that the Caldari have law firms (it's mentioned in their main article, I believe), but it's unclear how their justice system functions.

Any ideas / canonical sources?
Logged

Graelyn

  • Ye Olde One
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1349
  • These things just seem to happen...
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #1 on: 26 May 2013, 10:26 »

None that I'm aware.
Logged


If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!

orange

  • Dex 1.0
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1930
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #2 on: 26 May 2013, 10:39 »

There is an old article from about 5 years ago with this reference:

Quote
retired Lai Dai Tribunal Justice Ulia Kaarputen.

I also wrote up something in the past, but can't seem to find it.
Logged

Silver Night

  • Admin
  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2250
  • Elitist Oldtimer
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #3 on: 26 May 2013, 11:43 »

I expect it would depend on the corporation. AFAIK the only court with State-wide jurisdiction handles inter-corporate conflicts exclusively.

Katrina Oniseki

  • The Iron Lady
  • Demigod
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2266
  • Caldari - Deteis - Tube Child
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #4 on: 26 May 2013, 12:19 »

I have to mildly disagree with Stitcher's appraisal that vigilante justice is not acceptable in the State. What in the world do you think the Tea Maker ceremony is? It's a cup of poison that you hand to your enemy on their moment of weakness or failure and demand they drink it, or unspecified bad things will happen to them.

Caldari society is brutal and makes plenty use of social vigilantism through the tea and likely other methods. Guilt and forced-suicide play a HUGE role in extralegal justice/honor killings within the State. The State has a functioning court system, but it's not the only way to eliminate your enemies. It might be the only legal way, but it's not the only acceptable way... especially not for those who are clearly in control of the courts themselves, as Heth has proven to be.

orange

  • Dex 1.0
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1930
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #5 on: 26 May 2013, 12:26 »

Found what I had written up in the past.

Quote
Lai Dai Employee Justice Code
Outline for External Use

0 : Introduction

1 : Caldari State Regulations & Law application to Lai Dai employees

2 : Corporate Regulations & Law
2.0 : Section Introduction
2.1 : General Jurisdiction – presents all Lai Dai Corporation and subsidiary employees regardless of corporation, location, or position.
2.2 : Special Jurisdiction – presents those regulations and laws that apply to various subsidiary corporations.  The subsidiary it applies to is noted in the regulation or law.
2.3 : Military Jurisdiction – presents those regulations and laws that apply solely to the military components of the Lai Dai Corporation, chiefly Lai Dai Protection Services.

3 : Administrative & Judicial Actions
3.0 : Section Introduction
3.1 : Administrative & Judicial Actions  for violations of Regulations and Laws in section 2.1 & 2.2
3.2 : Administrative & Judicial Actions for violations of Regulations and Laws in section 2.3 by members of the military components it applies to.
Logged

Mithfindel

  • (a.k.a. Axel Kurki)
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 695
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #6 on: 26 May 2013, 15:07 »

If we forget outright assassinating your enemies, assassinating failed allies (such as underperforming corporate executives) as a way to get rid of them without needing to lose face is also a thing. Not sure if all of this would be exactly "vigilante" or whether there is a kind of a code for when this is appropriate.

I wonder if the death by Tea Maker ceremony is reserved for a special class of people? (Known examples are CEOs and an Admiral.) I think the medeival Japanese had a code on how specific people were allowed to suicide, with seppuku reserved for the samurai class, traders being allowed to use poison etc.?
Logged

Samira Kernher

  • Soulless Puppet
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1331
  • Ardishapur Victor
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #7 on: 26 May 2013, 17:08 »

If we forget outright assassinating your enemies, assassinating failed allies (such as underperforming corporate executives) as a way to get rid of them without needing to lose face is also a thing. Not sure if all of this would be exactly "vigilante" or whether there is a kind of a code for when this is appropriate.

I wonder if the death by Tea Maker ceremony is reserved for a special class of people? (Known examples are CEOs and an Admiral.) I think the medeival Japanese had a code on how specific people were allowed to suicide, with seppuku reserved for the samurai class, traders being allowed to use poison etc.?

The ritual suicide article on EVElopedia states it's a method used by the Executive class (and probably anyone above them).
« Last Edit: 26 May 2013, 17:10 by Samira Kernher »
Logged

Gottii

  • A Booty-full Mind
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1024
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #8 on: 26 May 2013, 17:31 »

I would imagine whatever rights one possesses is established by contractual obligations and corporate bylaws. 

I doubt they would give much credence to natural rights and such, for that way Gallente evil lies.
« Last Edit: 26 May 2013, 17:34 by Gottii »
Logged
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'"
― Isaac Asimov

Aria Jenneth

  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #9 on: 26 May 2013, 20:36 »

I remember reading an article on the patterns of a justice system that operates as a sort of theater, where citizens can observe justice being done by the state. Apparently (at least in places) there's a special focus on the guilty plea; a plea of innocence is tantamount to revolt, a declaration that the agents of the state have wronged you. Pleading guilty, on the other hand, shows a strong and useful picture of an evildoer throwing her/himself on the mercy of the wise and powerful state and submitting to its judgment.

The system's facial goal is the same as we have in the United States. The practical aim, however, differs greatly.

This is a game I can see the Caldari playing-- justice as propaganda, essentially. It's less important whether the accused is truly innocent or truly guilty, and more important that the accused submits to the judgment of the authorities.

Note that this system only works if its true nature is little-understood outside of those who participate in it. Transparency is toxic to it, but neither corporations nor dictatorial power structures in general are known for their transparency.
« Last Edit: 26 May 2013, 20:42 by Aria Jenneth »
Logged

Lyn Farel

  • Guest
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #10 on: 27 May 2013, 08:09 »

If we forget outright assassinating your enemies, assassinating failed allies (such as underperforming corporate executives) as a way to get rid of them without needing to lose face is also a thing. Not sure if all of this would be exactly "vigilante" or whether there is a kind of a code for when this is appropriate.

I wonder if the death by Tea Maker ceremony is reserved for a special class of people? (Known examples are CEOs and an Admiral.) I think the medeival Japanese had a code on how specific people were allowed to suicide, with seppuku reserved for the samurai class, traders being allowed to use poison etc.?

Seppukku was reserved for the samurai yes, and they had to be allowed to do so by their Daimyo. Denying a demand for seppukku was considered as an offense, but duty demanded that the samurai abide by it to redeem himself, and had to live in shame until by deed, such is done.

Commoners were forbidden to use it, ofc.
Logged

lallara zhuul

  • Now with rainbows and butterflies.
  • Veteran
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1123
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #11 on: 27 May 2013, 11:34 »

You have to remember one thing, Caldari are not only based on Japanese but on Finnish culture as well.

For Finns, the legal system is more about what is fair and the spirit of the law, not about the letter of the law.
Logged

Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

Lyn Farel

  • Guest
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #12 on: 27 May 2013, 12:08 »

I don't see how the Caldari are based on Finnish culture to be honest, not more than the Gallente are supposedly based on French. That's just a naming flavour.

And the only few things that reminds me of Japanese in the Caldari culture is maybe the blatantly teamaker ceremony copy cat of the japanese seppuku, or the Achura shinto-buddhist-like religion...
Logged

Utsukushi Shi

  • Achur Temptress
  • Egger
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 196
  • Chuku Dansei
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #13 on: 27 May 2013, 14:15 »

Your description Aria made me think of an episode of DS9 that had a Cardassian trial. It is a pretty hilarious fascist/stalinist show trial pastiche but it has that same exact vibe. The accused is guilty, the trial is designed only to reinforce the control of the larger society. The judge starts with "The subject is guilty, the sentence is death..... let the trial begin". I always lol when I think of it.

Also I think Gotti would likely be largely correct, with the exception of "moral" failings that harm the State/Mega directly I would think the majority of offenses would be contract based. Steal from someone and your not just interfering with their business your failing your own contractual obligations.
Logged
Sometimes one wants to get caught...

Mithfindel

  • (a.k.a. Axel Kurki)
  • Pod Captain
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 695
Re: Due Process in the Caldari State
« Reply #14 on: 27 May 2013, 14:40 »

The Civire culture carries Finnish stereotypies, I think. Can't remember which chronicle it was, but it mentioned a trader who had only traded with Civire and considered them somewhat blunt & honest, and was kind of nervous to trade with a Deteis for the first time. A lot of "Finnish culture" is loaning from elsewhere in Scandinavia, Germany and Russia. I've before raised the opinion that the State is kind of a nation-sized mill town, so if wanting to pick things off the history of Finland, one would probably need to study the ruukki/bruk towns. While a successful example of a Caldari society would be kind of an entire community built on Auftragstaktik meeting talkoo, the degenerate version is a case of mill town mentality* meeting cyberpunk.

A community built on old Germanic-Norse tradition might be interesting. There is a long tradition with noble ideals ("what is not right and fair shall not be the law"), but also some surprising twists (at one point, if someone was really drunk, the community was responsible from keeping him hurting people - if the drunk, say, killed someone with an axe, the person who gave him the axe would get the sentence).

*) Sorry, sources in English pretty much forget that there are company towns outside of good old England and the United States. (At least the ones I could find with a quick search.)
« Last Edit: 27 May 2013, 14:47 by Mithfindel »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2