Backstage - OOC Forums
General Discussion => General Non-RP EVE Discussion => Topic started by: Katrina Oniseki on 29 Aug 2013, 16:12
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Interesting stuff. Lackluster in some areas, exciting in others. All around a confusing change that I'm not sure what to make of. Certainly very specialized, with CCP's new T2 balancing philosophy. (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=273500)
As we have hinted several times before, Marauders are next on the Tech2 to-do list. And guess what? It's feedback time!
Marauders were initially released during the Trinity expansion in 2007 and were aimed for PvE activities. However, as time passed and we rebalanced other classes, especially the Pirate Battleships, they lost appeal as a whole.
We also believe that designing them for a very specific activity doesn't fit the emergent nature of EVE, and as such we wish to expand their use to PvP as well. Of course, their high price, low mobility will always ensure their role remains a niche one, but we at least can make that purpose more appealing than a simple "jam me now and forever" target dummy.
As such, after much internal and CSM discussion, we have designed Marauders with two modes of operation, specialized in harassing tactics.
In regular mode, they work approximately on the same fashion as on TQ, but are capable of using Micro Jump Drive at a faster rate than usual to quickly relocate on the battlefield.
In deployed mode (we call it bastion), their hulls transform (they will have fancy visible animations like the Rorqual does when deploying) and they become fixed weapon placement with a bonus to resistances, tanking, damage projection and receiving EW immunity. However, like Dreadnoughts, they cannot be remote assisted or even move when that happens. They also cannot use Micro Jump Drives in that mode.
The combination of both results in a ship that can jump 100km away to quickly react to a shifting environment, then go into bastion mode and use its increased damage application to deal with opposition while absorbing damage. However, due to the lack of remote assistance in that mode and isolating nature of Micro Jump Drives, they will still die easily in larger fights where DPS is concentrated. Remember that the spool up nature of the Micro Jump Drives plus the time needed to align will give opponents a window of opportunity to tackle them before they can jump again.
This also provides a stepping stone between sub-capitals / capital and their various siege / triage operation. It is noteworthy to remember we don't necessarily want them to out-damage or go faster than Pirate Battleships - instead, they tank and project damage better.
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Before we look at the hulls, here are the details about the Bastion module itself:
BASTION MODULE
Provides 30% shield, armor and hull resistances when activated, which function on the same way than Damage Control modules (not stacking penalized)
Increases shield and armor repair amount by 100%
Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
Has a cycle time of 80 seconds. Cycle is reduced by 5% for each level of Bastion module skill to a minimum of 60 seconds.
When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping
Only one may be fitted per Marauder, cannot be deactivated before cycle ends
Uses 10 CPU and 100 powergrid to fit
Uses no specific fuel or capacitor - we were discussing the use of Heavy Water as fuel. However, it doesn't really provide any gameplay (as CCP Rise mentioned, capacitor is the main limiting factor in combat with those ships). Plus it adds more consumables to a class that already commonly uses charges for weapons, cap boosters and need to keep cargo for possible salvaging.
BASTION TRANSFORMERTHINGIE™ SKILL(name not final)
Rank 8
Perception, Willpower as Primary / Secondary
Requires Advanced Weapon Upgrades 5 (that's needed to fly a Marauder anyway)
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Giving a new deployed mode is not enough however, as some modifications need to be made on the hulls themselves. First, we wanted to encourage Marauders to use Micro Jump Drives to move around, and as such have reduced mobility next to their Tech1 counterparts (bit higher mass and lower max velocity). We are also reducing their drone bays as they are primarily meant to deliver damage through their main weapon system. They also keep the resistances they have right now instead of gaining full Tech2 resists, otherwise the combination with the bastion module would be quite over the top.
However, we realize Marauder hulls have a certain number of issues; as such we are significantly increasing their fittings so that they can fit Large Micro Jump Drives plus Heavy Capacitor Boosters with more ease (the Vargur especially needed more fitting options). We also are increasing their high slots to 8 to compensate for the slot allocation of the bastion mode. We also are increasing their maximum targeting range and scan resolution a bit to make use of the increased damage projection, while decreasing their signature radius.
As a final combo bonus, we also are changing Target Painter cycle time from 10 to 5 seconds, and reducing their cap usage to compensate - waiting for the Target Painter cycle to finish before swapping targets is quite annoying on the Golem.
Detailed changes below.
PALADIN
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large energy weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to capacitor capacity
7.5% bonus to Large Energy Turret optimal range (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 16500 PWG (+3000), 530 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6300(-500) / 8000(-200) / 7700(+400)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 8000(+2375) / 1000s (+76.1s) / 8 cap/s (+2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .119(-0.009) / 111665000(+6465000) / 18.42s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 91km(+10km) / 120(+39) / 10
Sensor strength: 12 Radar
Signature radius: 420(-80)
GOLEM
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity
5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
Marauders Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount
10% bonus to effectiveness of target painters per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 7M, 4L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers
Fittings: 8500 PWG (+2000), 715 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000(-200) / 6100(-1200) / 7000(+300)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325(+700) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 5.5 cap/s (-0.5)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s(-20) / .12 / 114195000(+8995000) / 19s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(-50) / 50(-25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km(+5km) / 105(+32) / 10
Sensor strength: 14 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 450(-125)
KRONOS
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large hybrid weapon damage
10% bonus to large Hybrid Turret Falloff per level (instead of 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level)
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to repair amount of armor repair systems
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 4M, 7L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 14000 PWG (+2000), 580 CPU (+30)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 6600(-200) / 7200(-100) / 8600(+400)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6900(+1275) / 1150s (+226.1s) / 6 cap/s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 92 m/s(-28) / .114(-0.0038) / 113160000(+11360000) / 17.8s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-75)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 90km(+3km) / 120(+39) / 10
Sensor strength: 13 Magnetometric
Signature radius: 420(-80)
VARGUR
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large projectile weapon damage, 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams, 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large projectile turret rate of fire
10% bonus to large projectile turret falloff per level
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to shield boost amount
7.5% bonus to large projectile turret tracking per level
Slot layout: 8H(+1), 6M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 12900 PWG(+5000), 625 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500(-100) / 6600(-200) / 6300 (-1000)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6200(+575) / 1100s(+176.1s) / 5.6 cap/s (-0.4)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100 m/s(-30) / .112(-0.004) / 116840000(+10740000) / 18.1s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(-25) / 50(-25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 81km(+6km) / 145(+60) / 10
Sensor strength: 11 Ladar
Signature radius: 360(-65)
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[delete please]
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First, you appear to have double-posted the general change info in your quote.
Second, dat Marsiege module. 0_0
I still don't see these being a tremendous use in PvP, though. Price tag is far to high, alpha is still to much in fashion. You might see a handful of "elitePvP" groups deploying these for small skirmish, but they lack one critical trait dreadnoughts have: The ability to easily and safely extract via cyno if things go tits-up.
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I dunno Esna, just looking at the implications of the Bastion module, this could be a complete game changer in Wormhole space, and could possibly become the ship of the line of choice for rich nullblobs.
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I admit I didn't consider W-space much, as tactics there tend to be noticeably different than normal PvP, employing a lot of 'niche' hulls.
The problem with 0.0 blob warfare is the alpha/burst-DPS issue. A lot of the current doctrines - rail rokhs, rail megas, HM caracals, most tier 3 doctrines, any sentry doctrine - are more or less about successfully focusing a lot of firepower onto a single target within a very brief period of time. With a cycle time of 60 seconds, an FC could order his fleet to lock up a target (~10 secs), start "pinging" them with EW mods (~5 secs at most), call a primary for lock (another 15 secs) and pound away. Even assuming the fleet has to go through a couple targets to find a viable marauder to shoot, that's 2x (10+5) + 15 ... leaving 15 seconds left in the marauder's cycle, plenty to get a couple of volleys off even with delays. Of course, the marauder's logi also have to lock him after he comes out of that cycle... which means the attacking fleet will actually have a few seconds further.
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First, you appear to have double-posted the general change info in your quote.
Fixed.
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I might be wrong here, but... Bumping things just got a lot easier. 10x mass increase? I can't wait for people to aggress on stations..
In larger fleets where logis can be useless anyway being able to have wear immunity and increase damage is going to be so ace.
This will get needed to shit after release.
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I admit I didn't consider W-space much, as tactics there tend to be noticeably different than normal PvP, employing a lot of 'niche' hulls.
The small size of wormholes and their mechanics, being rather different then stargates, tends to hurt kiting and give a lot of benefit to brawling. In addition, the ability to fit a cloak in a utility high could be the difference between a ship being awesome, and being useless. Its a very interesting environment, and I can tell you right now, if this hits TQ with these changes, they will become FOTM in wormholes.
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I might be wrong here, but... Bumping things just got a lot easier. 10x mass increase? I can't wait for people to aggress on stations..
When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also receives a weapons timer that prevents station docking or gate jumping
Sounds likes you won't be bumping anything with these. Not read the changes in full, will read when it isn't 4am so I can actually take in any changes :D
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In larger fleets where logis can be useless anyway being able to have wear immunity and increase damage is going to be so ace.
Question is, can you afford to have these things in larger fleets? When considering this, I did heavily think back to some of the earlier fights in Fountain where TEST Foxcats (Apoc Navy issue doctrine) were badly savaged by Goonswarm Caracal fleets - in true Goonswarm fashion, enormously disparate losses meant nothing when they could replace dozens of cruisers for every hostile killed.
Of course these things will both be considerably toothier and considerably tankier than ANIs, but if I can literally hurl 80-100 cheap, throwaway cruisers at you and still break even by taking down even one of your ships... that's a hefty risk.
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Well, do we want them to balance the game with the 3000 ship battles in mind or with more realistic 50-250 ships in mind?
Not everyone has the human resources to put 100 cheap ships in space for every Faction BS.
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Well, do we want them to balance the game with the 3000 ship battles in mind or with more realistic 50-250 ships in mind?
That depends.
In some cases where those 3000 ship battles become a stability or extreme balance problem, or when the feature/ship is designed explicitly for those large battles, yes we do.
In other cases where something just simply doesn't work as well for a 3000 ship battle as it does for smaller gangs, no change is necessary.
I'd rather not blanket state that CCP should balance around any one philosophy. Take things on a case by case basis.
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To totally take the thread away from PvP discussion for a second.
I for one welcome our new Blaster Blap Kronos PvE Overlords.
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Speed set to 0 is not instant stop. that's why dread pilots wait until they are at 0 before
sieging, otherwise they continue to coast for sometimes disastrous results. Or with cyno ships you can activate the module at speed a d coast inside a pos shield with the cyno on
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Ps sorry for blatant typos, cell phone auto correct is going to be the death of me
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Speed set to 0 is not instant stop. that's why dread pilots wait until they are at 0 before
sieging, otherwise they continue to coast for sometimes disastrous results. Or with cyno ships you can activate the module at speed a d coast inside a pos shield with the cyno on
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Ps sorry for blatant typos, cell phone auto correct is going to be the death of me
This is why I don't post in the early hours ^^
Know how dread's siege works but my brain just comprehended this one as it'll drop you to 0m/s instantly, herp derp. Pity we'll be waiting a few months for it reaches Sisi.
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I like.
That's the kind of uniqueness/flavor idea I wanted for all the other hulls they reviewed until now. Too bad they finally do that only for marauders...
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Who cares about PVP now I can pretend to be M.A.S.K. Rhino - IN SPACE!
Now all we need is an assault frigate that turns into an interceptor... ( cookie poitns for those who get the refrence )
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...Welp, looks like Scope has a new goal LOL.
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I think the cost will help keep these from being used much in PVP (although it'll be interesting to see if they allows the siege modules in the alliance tourney), but it'll be interesting to see what happens with incursions.
On the one hand, you need to be able to receive reps. On the other hand, you can have a monster local tank to go with your huge dps and damage projection. Can you get that local tank large enough to compensate for the lack of reps without gimping your dps?
Otherwise... these will make for interesting mission runners and not much else.
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My PvE Kronos will be doing 5197.5 hp repairs on an 8.37 second cycle, and still fits 4 damage mods in the lows if that answers your question.
AAR's are going to be brutally effective with these, they'll certainly lean towards the 1% who can pimpfit PvP but they'll be extremely effective.
I'm also expecting gangs of TachyonPaladins for nullsec bubblecamps.
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My PvE Kronos will be doing 5197.5 hp repairs on an 8.37 second cycle, and still fits 4 damage mods in the lows if that answers your question.
AAR's are going to be brutally effective with these, they'll certainly lean towards the 1% who can pimpfit PvP but they'll be extremely effective.
I'm also expecting gangs of TachyonPaladins for nullsec bubblecamps.
Yeah see, that level of tank, while also having a bunch of utility highs? My corp will definitely be investing in a few of these.
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My PvE Kronos will be doing 5197.5 hp repairs on an 8.37 second cycle, and still fits 4 damage mods in the lows if that answers your question.
AAR's are going to be brutally effective with these, they'll certainly lean towards the 1% who can pimpfit PvP but they'll be extremely effective.
I'm also expecting gangs of TachyonPaladins for nullsec bubblecamps.
Yeah see, that level of tank, while also having a bunch of utility highs? My corp will definitely be investing in a few of these.
I should note that's completely min/maxed. But still you're looking at 4k+, then throw in a command ship for shits and giggles (the module doesn't block fleet boosts as assists right?)
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Yea like I said this will get nerfed to hell very soon.
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On the up shot, for you roaming WH types, expect to find these in C3's soloing the crap out of them
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Cael, these could possibly be used to solo C4s
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Cael, these could possibly be used to solo C4s
C4's tend to be slightly neut heavy, granted you could double cap boost your fit, but I'm sceptical as to how effectively it can be done.
I'll be more than busy testing this on SiSi when it goes live though.
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I'd just run cap injected with NOSes in the utility highs.
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I'm (mostly) trained to fly Marauders but haven't finished due to the costs vs. a standard T2 fit BS. Having established that I don't fly them, can someone please explain to me how this proposed revision helps in PVE? How about in PVP where they'd likely get immediately primaried and alpha'd off the field? To me the whole concept seems to be a convoluted, overly specialized answer to a question no one asked.
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Now all we need is an assault frigate that turns into an interceptor... ( cookie poitns for those who get the refrence )
The name "Valkyrie" is already taken. : /
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I'm (mostly) trained to fly Marauders but haven't finished due to the costs vs. a standard T2 fit BS. Having established that I don't fly them, can someone please explain to me how this proposed revision helps in PVE? How about in PVP where they'd likely get immediately primaried and alpha'd off the field? To me the whole concept seems to be a convoluted, overly specialized answer to a question no one asked.
The difference is in the Bastion module and added MJD bonus.
The Bastion module is similar to a siege module, except instead of increasing damage output it increases damage application capability (tracking, range) and provides mostly the same bonuses otherwise. It makes them tankier, but forces them to sit still.
The MJD bonus makes short-range weapons much more viable on Marauders - at least, aside from the Vargur, which already has a respectable 50-85km range with 800mm ACs (close-range ammo vs Barrage). It means that the pilot can literally blink around the field fucking things in the face with high-DPS fits that otherwise would have trouble applying that damage. MJDs have a standard cool down of 180 seconds - on Marauders this will be reduced to 54 seconds. If the player has trained the bastion module skill to 5, that means you can hit the MJD, land, do a single bastion cycle, then MJD elsewhere and repeat.
On the other hand, this will also work well with long-range weapons - blinking out to range and then sniping with sentry drones is already a great use of MJDs in PVE. Now imagine it with 1400mm arties, or 425mm Railguns, or Tachyons.
(tl;dr, you are vastly increasing the damage projection, tank and mobility of these ships.)
When it comes to PVP, you do raise valid points - while there may be some interesting 'niche' solo or small-gang fits I don't really expect to see Marauders becoming a common sight in fleets. They will, however, work well for POS bashing in highsec, I think.
It's like I joked in OOC last night:
Transrauders, more than meets the eye ♪
Transrauders, Dreadnaughts in disguise ♫
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The change to the mauraders for PvE not only gives these ships ridiculous sized tanks with the 100% bonus (don't forget a lot of local reppers are already getting boosted in Odyssey 1.1) But immunity to E-War (FUFUFU Caldari/Guristas) and exceptional increase to their gun range.
Running some numbers on a modified fit I use, I'm looking at 20.75 optimal and 51.625 falloff using a Blaster Kronos with Null ammo. That's laying down 1200+ DPS at long range, and once NPCs close to 30km 11.15 optimal and 18.375 falloff with 1650+ dps worth of Void. All this while tanking like a brick shit house? Remember it's not just the rep bonus gained, but a second, non stacking penalised with Damage Controls 30% across the board bonus. These ships will be nigh unkillable by NPCs, while laying out far more DPS than they do now.
With the increased fittings, you can comfortably do Artillery Vargurs, Tachyon Paladins (and they'll have crazy optimal and volley with Gleam and over 100km with Optimal+First falloff) and the change to TP cycles makes life a lot better for poor Golem pilots.
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Who uses gleam lol ? Navy multi does the same DPS no ?
Has it been ninja changed ? :eek:
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Who uses gleam lol ? Navy multi does the same DPS no ?
Has it been ninja changed ? :eek:
It's slightly less, but less tracking. More optimal but with this set up do you really need any more optimal?
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Who uses gleam lol ? Navy multi does the same DPS no ?
Has it been ninja changed ? :eek:
It's slightly less, but less tracking. More optimal but with this set up do you really need any more optimal?
This. Gleam has shorter optimal range than Multi, but more DPS (than INMF) and better tracking.
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There will be lots of opportunities for these things to really screw with people's heads in pvp. often times people see the shiny target and lose all senses going after the shiny. Sometimes people ignore the mega tanky ships on purpose (just like you don't shoot the prophecy first, it takes the longest to kill...)....
These will be a weird spot for pos bashing though for the cost.
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More Macross than Transformers. And the Kronos is going to fit that bill.
It shall be sweet.
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More Macross than Transformers. And the Kronos is going to fit that bill.
It shall be sweet.
I can't wait to see what the Kronos Transformer mode is going to look like.
Also your signature of De Gea booting Messi in the head is brilliant, and I could watch it over and over again.
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Now all we need is an assault frigate that turns into an interceptor... ( cookie poitns for those who get the refrence )
The name "Valkyrie" is already taken. : /
Wrong series, but you get candy for trying.
What I was talking about was the M.A.S.K. villains helicopter that turns into a jet the Switchblade. Going with the theme that Rhino kenworth truck that transforms into a battleplatform. You people are too young and weeaboo/hipster to know true old school.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYW4z6M9q2o
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In that case, we're both badwrong hipsterdouches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqcQUmKJEK8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqcQUmKJEK8)
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Who uses gleam lol ? Navy multi does the same DPS no ?
Has it been ninja changed ? :eek:
It's slightly less, but less tracking. More optimal but with this set up do you really need any more optimal?
This. Gleam has shorter optimal range than Multi, but more DPS (than INMF) and better tracking.
Oh ok, so they changed that... kewl.
Though a blaster kronos might present itself in a very good light if MJDs work in missions and stuff. Not sure that I want to go lazors if I can jump here and there with more DPS. Before hybrid changes I didnt care much since beams were almost as powerful as any short range weapon (was dealing 1100 DPS with classic IN tachyon INMF lenses before), but now...
Though werent they going to buff beam dps too ? mhhh
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Who uses gleam lol ? Navy multi does the same DPS no ?
Has it been ninja changed ? :eek:
It's slightly less, but less tracking. More optimal but with this set up do you really need any more optimal?
This. Gleam has shorter optimal range than Multi, but more DPS (than INMF) and better tracking.
Oh ok, so they changed that... kewl.
Though a blaster kronos might present itself in a very good light if MJDs work in missions and stuff. Not sure that I want to go lazors if I can jump here and there with more DPS. Before hybrid changes I didnt care much since beams were almost as powerful as any short range weapon (was dealing 1100 DPS with classic IN tachyon INMF lenses before), but now...
Though werent they going to buff beam dps too ? mhhh
MJD's do work in missions, but quite frankly I'd still rather use an MWD due to varying gate ranges. But I really can't see any alternative to the Kronos, possibly the Golem with the change to TPs, but that needs numbercrunching first.
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MJD's do work in missions, but quite frankly I'd still rather use an MWD due to varying gate ranges.
Learn to geometry, scrub. :cube:
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In that case, we're both badwrong hipsterdouches.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqcQUmKJEK8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqcQUmKJEK8)
Dat is awesome! Never landed over here unfortunately. Need to check if the US netflix has it.
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MJD's do work in missions, but quite frankly I'd still rather use an MWD due to varying gate ranges.
Learn to geometry, scrub. :cube:
:effort: :roll:
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Bastion mode giving scanning probe immunity would be so amazing for making them workable on field snipers, and low/null mission runners :)
Alas I will be ignored I think
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Mother
Fuckin
Airwolf.
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Bastion mode giving scanning probe immunity would be so amazing for making them workable [...] low/null mission runners :)
Alas I will be ignored I think
I think that'd transcend "workable" and straight into "frustratingly immune", especially for missions although also for complexes. Aside from the hull itself, what can you probe in missions sites - drones, and wrecks (I think). Both have considerably smaller signatures than the ship, giving the pilot plenty of time to run away to the safety of a cloak/safespot/POS.
Now, a scan probe reduction in effectiveness - carefully balanced to give some benefit but not effective immunity - would be better.
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Bastion mode giving scanning probe immunity would be so amazing for making them workable [...] low/null mission runners :)
Alas I will be ignored I think
I think that'd transcend "workable" and straight into "frustratingly immune", especially for missions although also for complexes. Aside from the hull itself, what can you probe in missions sites - drones, and wrecks (I think). Both have considerably smaller signatures than the ship, giving the pilot plenty of time to run away to the safety of a cloak/safespot/POS.
Now, a scan probe reduction in effectiveness - carefully balanced to give some benefit but not effective immunity - would be better.
Emphasised spot needs correction.
Being unscannable in a complex does not make you immune to attack, and didn't back in the day of actually unscannable ships - it only worked for missions. You'd end up locating the complex beacon, and you could warp to that. (You'd end up warping to that ANYWAY because :accelerationgates:, but that's another story.) Also, you can probe down drones but not wrecks.
Basically you'd get a ship that was 'immune' while inside a mission pocket. I can think of worse things, since there's only so many out-of-systems missions you can decline before your standings are in serious trouble.
Sigradius reduction would be nice, but tbh given what the Bastion module does... um. No. Doesn't make a lick of sense. (Not to mention, MJDs give you a 150% sigrad bloom while they're active.)
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Bastion mode giving scanning probe immunity would be so amazing for making them workable [...] low/null mission runners :)
Alas I will be ignored I think
I think that'd transcend "workable" and straight into "frustratingly immune", especially for missions although also for complexes. Aside from the hull itself, what can you probe in missions sites - drones, and wrecks (I think). Both have considerably smaller signatures than the ship, giving the pilot plenty of time to run away to the safety of a cloak/safespot/POS.
Now, a scan probe reduction in effectiveness - carefully balanced to give some benefit but not effective immunity - would be better.
Missions can only be probed through a ship or drone; wrecks are not scannable. Complex sites (unless escalations) can be scanned down through the site itself.
I generally don't envision Bastion mode being used for sniping (150km+) as long as on-grid probing is a thing that exists. You will be scanned down and warped to immediately, while stuck in a fixed position ... You might as well set yourself for close to mid range and fuck all notion of long range fire support. This hurts the Golem in particular the most, as it could easily do 200km~ sniping with Cruise missiles. On the flip side, it beast modes with 50-70km Torpedoes and an absurd tank.
:V
Being immune to probing for this in missions helps to stop the disadvantage Low/Null mission runners have to contend with in their territory. You have two means of protecting your mission: leave it entirely and wait, or "Get more bros and out number them/their hotdrop/their batphone/etc". If you are not in a station system you must bounce constantly, sit in a pos, carry a cloak, etc, while you wait for the hunter to leave.
Someone cruising through looking for pickings can easily interrupt your work and you must disproportionately respond. Tech 3 Cruisers and their probe immunity gave an option in this regard, but one that is even what I think is too powerful. A Marauder doesn't have a CovOps cloak or gang links, and they're much easier to catch on gates than a T3 is. At least in this respect, your option is now "Well I'm in the last room with Bastion mode, I can finish the mission and then run/hide/log off".
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So it's just dawned on me.
Serpentis Blockade is going to go from being :bash: to :cube:
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lolsansha TD spam won't cut your paladin's tachyon range to 500m anymore either.
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So it's just dawned on me.
Serpentis Blockade is going to go from being :bash: to :cube:
lolsansha TD spam won't cut your paladin's tachyon range to 500m anymore either.
I think you're both forgetting something more important:
Every. Gurista. Mission. Ever.
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Numbers :cube: (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3562518#post3562518)
Alright, ran some more tests on our internal servers with suggested changes.
Feedback suggested I ran Buzzkill or Worlds Collide without the web bonus on the Kronos to see how well the ship fared. Challenge accepted. Needless to say it was a slaughter. For the NPCs that is P
KRONOMNOMNOS:
High:
4x Neutron Blaster Cannon II
1x Salvager II
2x Small Tractor Beams II
1x Bastion transformerthingie™ Module
Med:
1x Large Micro Jump Drive
1x 100mn Microwarpdrive II
1x Heavy Capacitor Booster II (5x Cap Booster 800)
1x Tracking Computer II (Optimal range or Tracking speed scripts)
Low:
1x Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer
2x Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
3x Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
1x Tracking Enhancer II
Rigs:
1x Large Hybrid Ambit Extension I
1x Large Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Drones: 5x Warrior II - you don't need them anyway. Might as well be Peanut Butter II drones for that matter.
With the Tracking Computer II running with range script, I get 1220 DPS with turrets alone at 6.7km Range + 41.2km Falloff on Federation Navy Antimatter, or 973 DPS at 18.82km + 57.6km with Null :eek: Yes, yes, that's theoretical falloff damage, but I think that's good enough to compete with Pirate Battleships. You also have MWD + MJD combo to get in range of anything.
I typically use rails on my mission Kronos on TQ (I've got all 4 Marauders on one of my characters), but with this kind of projection I'll switch to blasters. Oh yes, my precious. So fresh, so shiny, oh yes precious blaster cannons, tastes like a delicious croissant. And the above setup can be pimped more. It's something I've put in 5mins, pretty sure it's not optimized and you'll find holes in it. Who cares, you get the idea.
How to wreck things in missions?
Warp in, activate Bastion, use extra projection with Null to smash frigate NPCs while they are closing in (I usually have transversal or radial velocity as overview column to know which ones I should shoot first). Once they're orbiting and you can't hit them anymore, smash cruisers and higher NPCs with Null or Navy Antimatter depending on range. Optional: use drones to kill frigates while dealing with bigger NPCs. Shooting frigates with blasters is a waste when you can let drones do it while you waste other targets.
If all that's left are frigates orbiting you and don't want drones to be shot, wait for Bastion mode to run out (best to anticipate one cycle in advance so you don't have to wait), activate MJD. At 100km away, activate Bastion again, wait for them to come in and smash them to pieces. Sure, you aren't going to do full damage in falloff, but even at 60-70km, all it takes is a single good hit on 4 grouped blasters to wreck them.
Having some battleship NPCs sitting at long range? (quite rare) At more than 50km, use MJD, turn around, then MWD. Less than 50km, just MWD. Funniest moment was the Serpentis / Guristas 120km spawn in Worlds Collide level 4 first room. Jumped straight into the Guristas spawn, then activated Bastion: laughed as they helplessly tried to jam my Kronos while I smashed them to bit at close range. Pay back time for the 1346321 times I got helplessly jammed. That was just my own experience here, your mileage may vary, of course.
Other examples in Bastion (main weapon damage only, no drones here with tech2 weapons, faction WU mods similar on the Kronos setup above). Numbers may be off depending on setup / typos, I'll leave you guys to correct me.
Paladin with Megapulses and Scorch: 817 DPS at 92km range +21km Falloff. Or 1025 DPS at 31km range +21km falloff with Imperial Navy Multifreq.
Paladin with Tachyons and Navy Multifreq: 969 DPS at 67km range + 52 Falloff.
Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
Vargur with 800mm autocannons II with Republic Fleet EMP: 955 DPS at 4km range + 68.8km falloff
Vargur with 1400mm artilleries, with Republic Fleet EMP: 720DPS at 43km range+134km falloff
Oh yes, and forgot to mention with a proper deadspace X-L shield booster and a good tank, a single Vargur or Golem can tank the first wave of a Vanguard Incursion by itself. Sure, damage isn't that good when you do (you can't use cap booster, go through charges too fast, thus have to go for cap stable Evil), but the fact remains it's still possible. Even discussing that very fact with other designers as it most likely is far too OP for PvE.
So while there are still concerns for PvP, I don't think you realize how efficient those things are for PvE. We feel like Dr. Frankenstein looking at a slab with a half-decaying corpses coming back to life. We've created monsters. Mission / PvE efficiency is not all about pure damage. It's also about mobility, projection and time you spend shooting. MJD + MWD helps with the first, Bastion plus new Kronos / Paladin bonuses give the second and EW immunity grants you the last.
As such we are definitely not going to give any kind of damage bonus in Bastion mode - if we ever did, it would be by severely penalizing turret tracking / missile explosion velocity when in Bastion mode, which would severally limit their use in PvE.
Hope this wall of text helps a bit (PvE side, as I said, we aren't talking about PvP in this post).
Also, here is a preview of the transformation mode on the Kronos. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQAvMUUJr4)
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Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
How the hell is he getting those numbers with cruises? Even with faction BCUs I can't hit those same numbers on a Golem. Is he running implants or what?
Also, can anyone help me make a Golem fit that will work well and -not- be a flying loot pinata for tornado gangs in highsec?
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Golem with Fury Cruises: 946 DPS at 208km range (with rigs, they have 361m explosion radius, 125m/s explosion velocity and 13km/s velocity) Or 776 DPS with Navy Cruises.
Golem with Caldari Navy Torps: 1002 DPS at 37km range (they have 243m explosion radius, 133.125 m/s explosion velocity and 4.2km/s velocity)
How the hell is he getting those numbers with cruises? Even with faction BCUs I can't hit those same numbers on a Golem. Is he running implants or what?
Also, can anyone help me make a Golem fit that will work well and -not- be a flying loot pinata for tornado gangs in highsec?
I would imagine he may be using an all lvl5 character, or implants. Although, it's actually quite possible to get that high using rigs. Higher, even.
This would be a Golem fit that's moderately bling, but not enough to make it really worth ganking for loot. Apply hardeners as needed. Obviously current stats. 966dps without drones.
http://i.imgur.com/1gSWdVp.jpg
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His numbers for the Kronos seem pretty solid. Personally I went without the MJD and ran the numbers on a 4 magstab/2 TC setup, but I might have to play with this one a bit.
I'll be blunt, the way blasters work, Bastion mode is a clear buff to the Kronos above all other ships. Not that they don't gain from this, but nowhere near as effectively.
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From everything I've read so far it seems that the Kronos will be the clear-cut king of Marauders. So much for balance. :roll:
I guess I'd better add Gallente BS V to my training plan.
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Don't be so quick to judge.
Holyshit Vargur tank. Like, dual xlasbs with blue pill will probably give you around 10-15k dps tank. The full crystals, links etc, may be able to get you as high as 20k.
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That, Kala, though, is not normal.
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Don't be so quick to judge.
Holyshit Vargur tank. Like, dual xlasbs with blue pill will probably give you around 10-15k dps tank. The full crystals, links etc, may be able to get you as high as 20k.
Will it actually be able to use all that tank, or at that point are you boosting more than you actually have in HP? I remember seeing someone EFT up a tengu that could tank almost 10k, but only if you overlook that the booster gave you 2-3 times your max shield hp every cycle.
Either way, these things will be godly in PVE, but I don't think they'll be used much in pvp, not a lot of buffer to go around.
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People are actually theory crafting them as mini-triage carriers. So, working in pairs, they both fit both self rep and remote rep. When one is in Bastion it can local tank itself and rep it's partner. They can then swap around for reloading asbs/aars.
Cap boosters for all \o/
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Don't be so quick to judge.
Holyshit Vargur tank. Like, dual xlasbs with blue pill will probably give you around 10-15k dps tank. The full crystals, links etc, may be able to get you as high as 20k.
You'll be able to hit the same numbers with a Paladin/Kronos with that level of min/max. Self-sustainability is the question though.
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Tank's all well and good but, I was thinking of DPS. The Kronos outdamages the Vargur by a pretty significant amount.
More DPS means killing stuff faster which means completing missions faster and makes the theoretical tanking numbers less important. The best defense is a hell of a lot of offensive firepower, IMO.
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If you are talking about missions, DPS applied over long range is king. In any missions save angel missions (yes, Serpentis have some annoying long-range variants), being able to reach out and touch someone - hard - is of utmost priority.
Thus, I'm more interested in the new Paladin than the Kronos, unless I missed something about its bonuses. Large rails still seem to be a sub-optimal weapons system, compared to, say, large mega-pulse II reaching out to 50/60 km. Nightmare is still almost certainly the king, though, since you can use lows for 4x heat sinks, unlike the Paladin, and still crush opposition with tachyons. Will have to EFT this before I buy. Kind of excited. :-)
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I intend to get the one with the coolest transform mode. 8)
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If you are talking about missions, DPS applied over long range is king. In any missions save angel missions (yes, Serpentis have some annoying long-range variants), being able to reach out and touch someone - hard - is of utmost priority.
Thus, I'm more interested in the new Paladin than the Kronos, unless I missed something about its bonuses. Large rails still seem to be a sub-optimal weapons system, compared to, say, large mega-pulse II reaching out to 50/60 km. Nightmare is still almost certainly the king, though, since you can use lows for 4x heat sinks, unlike the Paladin, and still crush opposition with tachyons. Will have to EFT this before I buy. Kind of excited. :-)
I usually use 3 or even 4 heat sinks on my paladin.
And the new kronos doesnt care for range,it already gets a bonus for that, added to the MJD bonus in the few cases where you are too far away...
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This is a good start for the winter expansion. But I seriously need new content to play with before I become excited in my pants. :|
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If you are talking about missions, DPS applied over long range is king. In any missions save angel missions (yes, Serpentis have some annoying long-range variants), being able to reach out and touch someone - hard - is of utmost priority.
Thus, I'm more interested in the new Paladin than the Kronos, unless I missed something about its bonuses. Large rails still seem to be a sub-optimal weapons system, compared to, say, large mega-pulse II reaching out to 50/60 km. Nightmare is still almost certainly the king, though, since you can use lows for 4x heat sinks, unlike the Paladin, and still crush opposition with tachyons. Will have to EFT this before I buy. Kind of excited. :-)
We aren't talking about the new Kronos hitting 50-60k with rails.
We're talking about the new Kronos hitting 50-60k with Blasters.
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If you are talking about missions, DPS applied over long range is king. In any missions save angel missions (yes, Serpentis have some annoying long-range variants), being able to reach out and touch someone - hard - is of utmost priority.
Thus, I'm more interested in the new Paladin than the Kronos, unless I missed something about its bonuses. Large rails still seem to be a sub-optimal weapons system, compared to, say, large mega-pulse II reaching out to 50/60 km. Nightmare is still almost certainly the king, though, since you can use lows for 4x heat sinks, unlike the Paladin, and still crush opposition with tachyons. Will have to EFT this before I buy. Kind of excited. :-)
We aren't talking about the new Kronos hitting 50-60k with rails.
We're talking about the new Kronos hitting 50-60k with Blasters.
Maybe. That's why I'm interested in trying it. Yet, hitting things with null/LR ammo in blasters, in falloff, is actually worse than say, tachyons with IN MF. Which will reach out to 80 km.
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Large rails aren't exactly terrible anymore either. They work great on the Talos and Naga, and I would expect that Bastion mode will fix up the places where they're still 'lacking'.
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Large rails aren't exactly terrible anymore either. They work great on the Talos and Naga, and I would expect that Bastion mode will fix up the places where they're still 'lacking'.
Where are they lacking that it will help? I don't think range is an issue for them, it doesn't boost tracking, does it boost cap regen and I didn't notice?
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Tracking at close range is the problem, but I believe they increased tracking on them a little bit a while back.
Even so, you just MJD out, activate bastion mode, instant hilarious range on rails with Antimatter against targets with low transversal.
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Tracking at close range is the problem, but I believe they increased tracking on them a little bit a while back.
on kronos, the webbonus helps with tracking stuff at close range, wish it had a web range bonus and not a strenght one.
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Tracking at close range is the problem, but I believe they increased tracking on them a little bit a while back.
on kronos, the webbonus helps with tracking stuff at close range, wish it had a web range bonus and not a strenght one.
It's going to have neither :P
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Also since when can't you fit 4 Heatsinks on a Paladin? :eek:
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Time for another update.
We discussed the Marauder situation further and came with the following changes:
Shield, armor and hull 30% resistance boosts have been removed on the Bastion Module - instead, all Marauders will now get proper tech2 resists. This will allow Marauders to have better RR use outside Bastion and reduce overall tanking effectiveness inside the mode.
We have removed all tanking bonuses on the Marauders hulls (Armor Repairer amount on the Paladin and Kronos, Shield Boost amount on the Golem and Vargur). Instead, we are giving them 7.5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level. This will not only help reducing their tanking effectiveness, be more in theme with the ship role itself and help anyone using them with short range weapons. We are not giving them a full 10% per level back as this would be extremely powerful in conjunction with the other bonuses / Bastion. We are going to leave the full 10% web strength amount on the Serpentis ships for now and see how things evolve with time.
Also, we are removing the mass penalty on the Bastion mode. Tests have shown you can't really turn when it's active anyway, and we don't want to have players abuse that to collapse wormholes.
-CCP Ytterbium
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All of my rage. These changes do not please the Kat.
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Yeah, not a fan here. No point having such wildly split bonuses. Web bonus would make sense if Marauders were supposed to MJD across the field and then kill things with short range guns, but the Bastion effects are obviously intended for medium-to-sniper range.
I prefered the old version ._.
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I'll confess right now that I don't really understand the maths and the numbers at play here as well as I ought to. However, from what I've been seeing and reading, I guess the big issue is what is a marauder supposed to be?
I have to distinctly different views...the first is sort of based on the word itself, that of a warrior (or gang) rushing into a settlement and raiding it while undefended. So in that case, I first viewed the marauder class as something that sneaked in behind the enemy and raided targets of opportunity by getting in close and unleashing hell from its guns.
The other one I have, given that it is a battleship hull, was more of a stealthy sniper; still going behind enemy lines as it were and then from range destroying targets and sneaking off.
The bastion mode change seemed to support the second concept of a marauder that I had and it is one that I do prefer...I do like long range to in-close and personal. But then these next wave of changes show up and the bonus to webbers is back or added.
To me, it feels like there is an attempt to make the marauder a brawler and a sniper; yet not really good at either since you can't hot-swap guns and fits once you're out in space.
Just my two cents on the subject; I still think the concept is cool, but I want it to be a useful and neat concept else what's the point?
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Seems like they just took most of the worth out of the bastion module. Previously, it gave a hefty range bonus and the potential for a monster fuckoff local tank. Now it gives range.
The bonus to non-bastion resists while nerfing active tanking means that these will be better in remote-rep situations, but I think it will be hard to justify giving up that RR just for the range bonus in PVP. And I think it's a decent nerf to the PVE ability of these ships, with or without bastion.
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Pretty sure they just appeased the incursion community with that one. It's a slight nerf to L4's in terms of tanking but they already tank excellently there.
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I'm too lazy to try and run the numbers for the overall difference here, but this looks like a straight up nerf. Pretty sure the web thing was brought back due to whining, I saw more than a little of it in the Eve-o thread.
And as Steffie says, it's pretty damned weird. Bastion is supertanky, cool, and all about the snipey-snipey. And yet they suddenly give us web bonuses to go with it...
I get that they're trying to make it so that they can switch between mobile brawler and fixed firepoint, but it seems kind of crude in application. Almost feels like they'd be better off going for sniper mode, mobile mode, brawler mode, but I can imagine that getting something to work with three modes would cause meltdowns in implementation and UI.
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I'm getting the the feeling that CCP really doesn't know what it wants the Marauders to be.
It apparently bugged the hell out of someone that an entire class of ships existed purely aimed at PVE so, they decided to "fix" that issue in this round of balancing by giving them attributes to make them (at least somewhat) viable in PVP. The problem is that the two combat styles are complete opposites. I just don't see any way to have a single set of bonuses on the hulls that would equally benefit both styles.
That being said, the original proposed changes sounded very interesting. I really wanted to try them out. With the revisons I don't see the point in the whole exercise. I'm no numbers whiz or doctrine expert by any means but, it seems to me that what the revisions create is a class of ships that are less effective than before in PVE and are gimped for PVP due to capabilities and price.
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The first draft was probably the FIRST time CCP really impressed me by trying to find proper role/flavour/niche to a ship, unlike the pretty shallow and generic bonuses they seem to give most of the other ships in the game, always going for the obsolete ship and buffing it, thus making the other ships overstepping on the same function obsolete in turn, and never even trying to find clear cut roles for their ships (yeah, just a generic tasteless soup of +5% DMG or +5% tank here and there).
Besides the fact that the numbers sounded just plain wrong (10K tank ? Seriously ?), the idea sounded fine in itself.
Now it just sounds... completely shallow. But that 90% web was one of the most important thing for me to run missions in a BS. Without one, it's a nightmare.
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This will get nerfed to shit after release.
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The problem is that the two combat styles are complete opposites. I just don't see any way to have a single set of bonuses on the hulls that would equally benefit both styles.
The only way to appease both styles is to offer simple tank and damage bonuses. That, however, is not 'specialized' enough for T2.
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Hey.... isn't there already an expensive 1 bil plus battleship that has a webbing bonus? Hmmm.
Maybe we don't need more of that?
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Sure thing, that's why i didn't mind the first draft (except for the ludicrous numbers).
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This will get nerfed to shit after release.
Protip: pre-release nerfs are not "after release". :P
And yeah. Not happy with this new set of changes. If they wanted to reduce the SUPAHTANK they could've just reduced the resist bonus from the Bastion module to like, 10-15% instead of 30.
Definitely agreeing with Lyn. They had something unique and very 'niche'... and then threw it away. Really terrible choice there.
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I know this is kind of off-topic but, I think that what this whole rebalancing process has shown is that there are just too many ships in the game right now that are competing for a fairly limited, fixed set of roles. This fundamental problem's been exaggerated by the new (in many cases unbalanced) ships introduced over time that have, in practical terms, obsoleted what's come before. The Attack BCs are a prime example of this. Unfortunately when CCP does propose something original for a class of ships or modules they don't seem to have the will to carry through. I don't know if this is due to player resistance, post-Incarna risk aversion or something else entirely.
Once introduced into the game it's nearly impossible to flat out remove ships/modules so, CCP really needs to embrace innovation and come up with some exciting new capabilities/uses for the existing assets. The original Marauder proposal would have been a nice start.
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Confirming CCP just nerfed them back into wierd pointlessness. The strangest bit, is that even before the MJD came along people were theorycrafting it as a module you'd hit at the start to jump out to sniping range, rather than a mid-fight ejection seat-module. Now they seemed to propose a ship that really fit with that idea too:
- Grid and CPU for long-range weapons.
- Current usage in situations (i.e., missions and complexes) where this was already a highly viable tactic.
- Further bonus to weapon range and tracking to solidify the role.
- Enhanced tank just in case things did manage to reach you.
- A drawback in a lack of widespread utility options - i.e., other secondary bonuses or large drone bay - fitting with CCP's idea of the T2 ships as a specialized type.
Now not only does it not have a focus, it doesn't seem to be especially good at the intended role. WTF, CCP.
fakedit: I'm kind of confused by the suggestions that the changes were in response to whining from the Incursion community. Considering the appeal in the ridiculous ISK incursions pay up, is it asking to much to accept that other kinds of PvE can have some fancy toys too?
realedit: Ohgod, Anna. Don't even get me started on that. :(
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The incursion whining was mainly based around the removal of the web bonuses.
HOW WILL I BE ABLE TO HIT FRIGATES WITH MY BATTLESHIP GUNS NOW? :evil:
I would prefer it if Incursions were remodelled to require support ships in the ship of anti-frigate cruisers/BCs rather than being almost completely limited to shiny-BS/logi.
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I would prefer it if Incursions were remodelled to require support ships in the ship of anti-frigate cruisers/BCs rather than being almost completely limited to shiny-BS/logi.
They already do. Assault and HQ fleets regularly make use of Lokis to obliterate frigates with the 'finger of death' method used by a lot of nullsec fleets.
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I would prefer it if Incursions were remodelled to require support ships in the ship of anti-frigate cruisers/BCs rather than being almost completely limited to shiny-BS/logi.
They already do. Assault and HQ fleets regularly make use of Lokis to obliterate frigates with the 'finger of death' method used by a lot of nullsec fleets.
Oh good, another 400m (for the hull and subs) isk ship.
/bitter and poor
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3573200#post3573200
I kind of feel like marauders are being pushed into so many different directions here to try to fill roles that either other ships fill better, or don't really exist in the first place. I know CCP is trying, but it all seems so screwed up right now.
Instead of concentrating so hard on making marauders wildly different from pirate battleships and other parts of the ship line-up why don't they follow the rest of the t2 lineup, and make what changes are needed to keep them on course.
For instance, to separate them from pirate battleships look at what pirate battleships do well. All of the pirate ships have great dps, most are fairly fast (with the machariel being very fast) and three of them have fantastic ewar bonuses. Why not keep this to pirate battleships? If they need to be reworked a little then do so during the pirate rebalance, but keep things like 90% webs, web range, a neuts to pirate battleships.
Whats left over now for marauders? Well why not follow the assault ship/command ship lineup. Keep the marauder's dps about the same, but emphasize their tank and application, but do so without utterly pidgeonholeing the class. Get rid of all of all of the ewar bonuses. ALL of them. No bonus to webs, none to target painters. Just drop them. If we want them, we'll fit them, just don't make us feel like we have to in order to optimize the ship. When you think about ship bonuses realize that people are going to use long and short range weapons on the ship. Keep this in mind. A web bonus is less of a help to people using long range weapons than it is to someone who uses short range ones.
Here's a sample of something that makes sense.
GOLEM
• Role Bonus: 100% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo damage. 70% reduction in Micro Jump Drive reactivation delay. Can fit Bastion modules.
• Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo velocity
5% bonus to cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
• Marauders Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to the cruise missile and torpedo explosion velocity per level
4% bonus to shield resistances per level
• Slot layout: 6H, 7M, 5L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers
• Fittings: 8500 PWG, 715 CPU
• Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 8000 / 6100 / 7000
• Shield resists: 0% EM / 50% EX / 70% KIN / 80% THERM
• Armor resists: 50% EM / 10% EX / 62.5% KIN / 86.25% THERM
• Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap/s) : 6325 / 1150s / 5.5 cap/s
• Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 85 m/s / .12 / 114195000 / 19s
• Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25 / 50
• Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 95km / 105 / 10
• Sensor strength: 28 Gravimetric
• Signature radius: 450
And a bastion module that makes sense. Its pretty powerful, but again, its balanced against the fact that you COMMIT. No logi, can't move, can still be neuted, and anyone can run away from you.
BASTION MODULE
• Increases shield and armor repair amount by 25%
• Increases shield, armor and hull by 25%
• Extends all large turret falloff and optimal by 25%
• Increases all large missile max velocity by 25%
• Increases damage from large missiles and turrets by 25%
• When activated, the bastion module repairs the marauder for 25% of its maximum capacitor, armor, shield, and hull hp.
• Has a cycle time of 60 seconds.
• When in bastion mode, Marauder is immune to EW but cannot be remote assisted in any way
• When in bastion mode, Marauder speed is set to 0 m/s, mass is increased by a factor of 10, cannot warp. Also
When its activated, we're parked. We commit. When we turn this thing on its either win or die, so it better be worth it.
Its useful with the bastion module. Its useful without it. It has enough slots to make good fitting choices. It can be buffer tanked or active tanked. It has good application, which can be made better with TPs or webs, but it doesn't NEED to fit them.
Perfect. This is exactly what a 1.5b Isk ship ought to be. Fucking worth the price.
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What's so different from the first draft ? Looks pretty much similar...
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Cuts down on the rep bonus, gets a damage boost.
Gotta say, I prefer it to either CCP iteration.
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Cuts down on the rep bonus, doesn't have the resist bonus, gets a damage boost.
Gotta say, I prefer it to either CCP iteration.
Don't forget, 20% (4% * 5) resist bonus rolled into the hull. Another 25% raw HP bonus across all tanks.
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Cuts down on the rep bonus, doesn't have the resist bonus, gets a damage boost.
Gotta say, I prefer it to either CCP iteration.
Don't forget, 20% (4% * 5) resist bonus rolled into the hull. Another 25% raw HP bonus across all tanks.
I dislike this, because it means either I'm losing the damage bonus on my Kronos or the tracking. Likely the former.
Edit: Wait, didn't realise that the Bastion mode had been changed to 25% extra HP, not 25% resists.
Eh, it's still better than anything CCP have put forward so far, but I'd tweak it a little.
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This is a good start for the winter expansion. But I seriously need new content to play with before I become excited in my pants. :|
After the announced change, I am no longer in eager anticipation mode. Winter expansion turned sour already. :ugh:
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Would rather have a resist bonus on the bastion module rather than a HP increase. Can just see that in a close fight where you finish in hull, turn off bastion and boom goes your Marauder due to the HP decrease :D
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Unfinished, and unconfirmed from any official sources. Don't start whining yet folks :P
Bastion mode animations for the Kronos and Vargur:
(http://i.imgur.com/n4SKoTh.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/XDFIWob.gif)
Vargur appears to be a timer. Fins down is normal, fins go up when Bastion engaged, and slowly slide back in as the module cycles. Should be a nice visual way to see how far through the cycle they are.
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So the Kronos is more of a..... lowrider on hydraulics?
(http://chivethethrottle.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/hydraulics-500-lowrider-custom-paintwtmk.jpg)
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Those are a tiny bit disappointing.
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/me waves the disclaimer all over the place
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/me waves the disclaimer all over the place
I will make love to you in your nostril.
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/me waves the disclaimer all over the place
I will make love to you in your nostril.
(http://i.imgur.com/nzHns.gif)
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The Kronos has no reason to not go completely vertical.
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There was some discussion of this where they basically said these were "trial runs" for initial animation ideas - i.e., they were just making sure the animations looked okay before expanding them to something more proper and dramatic.
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So the Kronos is more of a..... lowrider on hydraulics?
(http://chivethethrottle.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/hydraulics-500-lowrider-custom-paintwtmk.jpg)
We get to go pickin' up chicas around Mannar, ese.
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lol :D
Anyway more seriously, they definitly look all but okay... They look utterly rubbish :eek:
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lol :D
Anyway more seriously, they definitly look all but okay... They look utterly rubbish :eek:
They said Rorqual, not dreadnought. I demand something much more elaborate!
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If you want Rorqual-style animation, all they need to do is roll the ship and open a mouth somewhere.
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If you want Rorqual-style animation, all they need to do is roll the ship and open a mouth somewhere.
Roll over and open up for me, baby...
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Kronos Bastion Mode (http://i.imgur.com/g5dzAyG.jpg)
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I can't help but think, "Humping Megathron" every time I look at that Kronos animation.
Makes sense I guess, I don't know.
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If you want Rorqual-style animation, all they need to do is roll the ship and open a mouth somewhere.
On the Kronos, I think it would be best to have a tower rise up out of the center area above the dronebay.
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Anything more than a few tiny bits like guns slots like on dreads will look utterly silly to me.
Transformers -_-
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I would think a gun platform extension, a powercore shielding removal, and 'supercharged' ship powerlines would be sufficient enough. The main visual indicator could be the powerlines being much more prominent... looks hella sweet too.
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Post No. 4373 (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3676209#post3676209)
Hey people,
We've been away from this thread for a while to let things cool down a bit.
With Rubicon coming to Singularity soon, we've decided to revert Marauders to the original design for now, as we want to see how they actually fare in practice within player hands before committing to the version 2 change. We will let you know if and when we move to version 2 again. We’ll most likely open a new thread when they appear on Singularity as this one has become quite convoluted.
That means:
- Shield, armor and hull resists in Bastion Mode only
- Keep the 37.5% tank bonus on the Marauders, no web bonus
We are also aware this won't please everyone here - regarding their comparison with Pirate Battleships, especially the Machariel, please remember we have stated many times Pirate hulls were due for a rebalance, with Angel Cartel being on the front line for tuning changes.
Thanks for your time.
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Yessssssssssss :cube:
I hated the web bonus cries, just fly a f##king Vindicator.
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Yeah, probably selling my paladin without a web. It's not very fun to get back to the problem I had 6 years ago with my first crappy T1 battleship when I had to deal with cruisers under 30km range. :bash:
It's either that or the MJD bonus to make sure that you can microjump here and there to avoid the issue.
Or redesign the missions entirely. :psyccp:
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I know Affinity is very much in the mindset of redesigning, there's a thread up on the M&C forum looking for feedback.
Honestly, the lack of webs won't be an issue, with the increased range to your optimal and falloff those Tachyons are going to be sniping things in single volleys long before they reach you. Been told to expect SiSi deployment very soon, I'm certainly looking forward to getting my hands on these.
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I know Affinity is very much in the mindset of redesigning, there's a thread up on the M&C forum looking for feedback.
Honestly, the lack of webs won't be an issue, with the increased range to your optimal and falloff those Tachyons are going to be sniping things in single volleys long before they reach you. Been told to expect SiSi deployment very soon, I'm certainly looking forward to getting my hands on these.
you know there are missions who spawn NPCs right on top of you ?
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I know Affinity is very much in the mindset of redesigning, there's a thread up on the M&C forum looking for feedback.
Honestly, the lack of webs won't be an issue, with the increased range to your optimal and falloff those Tachyons are going to be sniping things in single volleys long before they reach you. Been told to expect SiSi deployment very soon, I'm certainly looking forward to getting my hands on these.
you know there are missions who spawn NPCs right on top of you ?
And this is why you get an MJD bonus, and fit an MWD too. I've been running the numbers on my proposed fit setup, it's solid.
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A lot of missions do not let you choose the starting range :/
Not sure if that's a bad design choice though. But I do not have the proper tools to fight at such ranges with no webs or no MJD. If I have to dronekill scram frigates to use my MJD and put myself at range, fair enough. But otherwise, bleh, how tedious...
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NPC scrams don't affect MJDs. Have been using one on my megathron and when I get warp scrambled by a frigate, I can still engage the MJD and pick the thing off at range.
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There isn't a single NPC in the game that can shut off an MWD or MJD. All NPCs use disruptors.
Well, okay. Outuni Mesens can, but they cheat and go "Nice capacitor, I'll nuke the shit out of it."
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While NPCs apparently "warp scramble you!" in the warning messages and AI, it is infact just a disruptor, you may MJD/MWD at will.
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It's written the same thing with players anyway.
I never really bothered until now to check if NPC used scrams or just disruptors. Good to know.
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I think the message goes something along the lines of "<x> has started trying to warp scramble <y>!", which I suppose isn't really inaccurate even if NPCs are using disruptors.
I mean, they're -trying- to scramble you... but they fit the wrong tackle mod.
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(http://i.imgur.com/vnBf83C.jpg)
3/10
Looks pretty bad. Looks downright humorous, actually.
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(http://thegeekscrew.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/mighty-ducks-2.gif)
First thing that sprung to mind when I saw that.
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:roll:
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Still...far more dramatic a change than the Kronos, which is what I was hoping for it (since I have one)
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(http://i.imgur.com/vnBf83C.jpg)
3/10
Looks pretty bad. Looks downright humorous, actually.
:o
Space ducks (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VBIXPKZeYn4#t=90) in the war in outer space.
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(http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tamber/golem_notextureeffects.png)
(http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tamber/golem_top_no_effects.png)
(http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tamber/golem_top_perspective_no_effects.png)
Untextured, but courtesy of the ever-wonderful T'Amber.
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(http://i.imgur.com/vnBf83C.jpg)
3/10
Looks pretty bad. Looks downright humorous, actually.
That's just sad and hilarious at the sametime. Someone please put this retarded duck out of it's misery.
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Well, *I* kinda like it. :<
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Yeah, I actually don't mind it. The hammerhead type look seems to work reasonably well :P
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What the hell is that...
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Moving swiftly away from the Golem's appearance.
(http://i.imgur.com/2v4kvs2.jpg)
You can carry more nanite paste than that. But lol.
Edit: No implants, links or boosters were used in the making of this fit.
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Am I the only one who really doesn't like the recent trend of T2 variants of ships being entirely structurally different than their T1 counterparts? Bulk it up, add on some new bits, even graft a whole new segment or wingy bit to it - but when you start drastically changing the basic hull structure and then insisting that oh, it's still the same hull - I dunno, kind of stretches believability.
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Cheapfit Golem, not worth ganking. Uses ASB, but can use standard booster if you prefer to run on cap instead of charges. I found using Semiconductor rigs increased my uptime on standard boosters, AND it provided a better buffer for when I run out of cap boosters on the ASB.
(http://i.imgur.com/ZD5tVRH.png)
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Am I the only one who really doesn't like the recent trend of T2 variants of ships being entirely structurally different than their T1 counterparts? Bulk it up, add on some new bits, even graft a whole new segment or wingy bit to it - but when you start drastically changing the basic hull structure and then insisting that oh, it's still the same hull - I dunno, kind of stretches believability.
I have the opposite feeling. Taking the same copycat again and again with a new paintjob feels kindof cheap. I would expect them to actually upgrade the ship to be worth be called TECH 2.
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Am I the only one who really doesn't like the recent trend of T2 variants of ships being entirely structurally different than their T1 counterparts? Bulk it up, add on some new bits, even graft a whole new segment or wingy bit to it - but when you start drastically changing the basic hull structure and then insisting that oh, it's still the same hull - I dunno, kind of stretches believability.
I have the opposite feeling. Taking the same copycat again and again with a new paintjob feels kindof cheap. I would expect them to actually upgrade the ship to be worth be called TECH 2.
Very much this.
So running my proposed modified mission Kronos fit (modified from the current live version) I'm sat at the screen looking at the numbers, those beautiful tasty numbers.
The bastion mode tank is ridiculous and the range application makes blasters a viable PvE weapon system in L4's, specially coupled with both MWD and MJD capability. Won't be posting the fit because :metagame: but :cube: for this ship, so much of it.
Edit: Also Kala, a modified version of your Kronos, on a Paladin, same "no boosters/implants" rule.
(http://i.imgur.com/jNs6pHQ.jpg)
Edit of edit: Balls, that was the gleam test. INMF is 68+44 running at 986 dps /w drones, 5957 volley.
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What the hell is that...
a duckface Raven :s
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This started as a stress test on the Vargur's possible tank and rapidly escalated into absurdity. Before I get whaled on for EFT warrioring, I'll point out that that was the entire point, to test the theoretical tank of the Vargur assuming ISK and SP are no object.
There is absolutely no possible way for the rich to abuse this >_>
(http://i.imgur.com/oZKuUlM.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/gayXpuI.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/tI5BlOT.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/PqkaJQa.jpg)
If I heat everything on that final fit, this happens.
(http://i.imgur.com/5snPSlL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/BXkyz0S.jpg)
When heated, you boost back 374hp short of your entire shields. Every cycle. With 90%+ resists across the board.
WELP.
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I actually like the new raven.
And really, if you want pretty ships, you shouldnt have trained Caldari in the first place....
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I actually like the new raven.
And really, if you want pretty ships, you shouldnt have trained Caldari in the first place....
Beauty is in the Eye of the beholder but sometimes the beholder is blind?
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Probable changes to drone bays and other Stuff™ (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3716282#post3716282)
So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
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So far, what I can see based on the actual testing of those ships, is that the Bastion mode is good, but that the hulls were most likely nerfed a bit too much.
I agree with the drone flexibility - while I don't see them necessarily keep the TQ bandwidth, they can use moar dronebay.
Also considering reverting some of the other hull nerfs, will let you know when we have more details (we aren't going to change their role though). And sorry to say, but version 2 with web bonuses is not coming back, it just didn't fit that well with the role and Bastion mode.
[/quote]
Good to hear.
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holy OMFGBBQWTFPWNED on that last vargur fit..... :eek:
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holy OMFGBBQWTFPWNED on that last vargur fit..... :eek:
What really horrifies me, is that even just the basic t2 fit can tank almost 30k dps if needed. That means that ship can tank up to around fourteen ABCs off one booster, assuming it doesn't get alpha'd. :|
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9k shield, a flight of Tornados will cut through that, you need to look at a healthy mix of buffer and resists.
Paladin's probably the best place to start, Amarr T2 resists and doesn't need the TE in the lows that the Kronos does. Plate that sucker up.
Glad to see they're considering extending the Drone bay, allows me more damage drones without dropping my salvage team.
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Textured Vargur transformations:
(http://i.imgur.com/zYI9Ssd.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/wO01XUU.jpg)
(http://cfile30.uf.tistory.com/image/2530D739525A48E3298113)
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BITCH I WILL SLAP YOU WITH IRON FANS.
... Yeah, the Vargur's animation seems a little... lackluster. :P
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Don't they all? It does remind me of Rainbow Dash (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/wingboner-clopping) though. LOL
(http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/139/109/7123%20-%20meme%20pomf%20rainbow_dash%20wingboner%20wing_boner.png)(http://cfile30.uf.tistory.com/image/2530D739525A48E3298113)
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Frankly, the first thing that caught my eye is the little bit that slides back and forth underneath the upper "prow". Expecting Minmatar duct-taped-on-giant-shotgun jokes in 3... 2... 1...
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Pump-Action Vargur. That explains the sail-boners.
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All in all, not bad, but they really shouldn't have hyped it up as 'transformations'
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All in all, not bad, but they really shouldn't have hyped it up as 'transformations'
I believe Degen has the proper term for this:
"Wibbly-woo". They are more advanced wibbly-woos, with an on/off button.
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Have we seen the Paladin yet?
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Looks better than the Kronos animation at least.
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Have we seen the Paladin yet?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3727327#post3727327
It'll be out this week ideally.
This has suddenly dawned on me as to why the art department was slightly evasive when I asked if the Golem and Vargur were getting new models the same way he let slip the Kronos and Paladin were at Fanfest.
Suppose the Dominix redesign will be a little later than winter then :bash:
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So I took my Kronos out to SiSi.
While I'm using a couple of T2 modules I intend to replace with Faction, and because the mirror is old I don't have T2 Blasters on this variant so I'm using crappy navy guns. I will say this.
1280.5 DPS on guns alone, at roughly 7km+36km range.
4,677.40 HP repaired on an 8.37 cycle.
Barely needing cap boosters due to the high resistances (78/75/78/59 using Bastion/DCII and a T2 EANM *this will be replaced) and massive amount of rep.
I fucking love this ship.
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This has suddenly dawned on me as to why the art department was slightly evasive when I asked if the Golem and Vargur were getting new models the same way he let slip the Kronos and Paladin were at Fanfest.
I know, right? :D
Been playing with them in PVP situations on Sisi, actually - they're pretty nasty.
And because of the EWAR immunity during bastion mode they're nigh-uncatchable without scrams. You basically have a 9-12 second window to lock them down in during the MJD spoolup, and even then they can just slap on bastion mode again to kill off the scrams at that point and make you try again.
The only things that are going to wreck one of these, it seems, is ridiculous amounts of alpha and/or lots of neuts to shut off the reps.
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A handful of Tornados will take them out with the Alpha.
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Iteration stuff, like, whatever. (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3743519#post3743519)
Alright, as promised, we are having a small iteration on the hulls themselves:
Capacitor has been decreased from 8000 to 7500 on the Paladin.
Drone bay has been restored to 75m3 on the Paladin and Golem, 125m3 on the Kronos and 75m3 on the Vargur.
Max Velocity has been increased to 100m/s on the Paladin and Golem, 105 on the Kronos and 110 on the Vargur.
Mass has been reduced to 92,245,000 kg on the Paladin, 94,335,000 kg on the Golem, 93,480,000 kg on the Kronos and 96,520,000 kg on the Vargur.
Shield HP has been increased from 6300 to 6900 on the Paladin, 8000 to 8800 on the Golem, 6600 to 7300 on the Kronos, 7500 to 8300 on the Vargur.
Armor HP has been increased from 8000 to 8800 on the Paladin, 6100 to 6700 on the Golem, 7200 to 7900 on the Kronos, 6600 to 7300 on the Vargur.
Hull HP has been increased from 7700 to 8500 on the Paladin, 7000 to 7700 on the Golem, 8600 to 9500 on the Kronos, 6300 to 6900 on the Vargur.
Why buffing those hulls?
As mentioned here (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3716270#post3716270) and based on your feedback, we realized the hulls have been overnerfed in iteration 1 next to the benefits given by Bastion.
Why restoring their drone bay to their original values, but keeping the nerfs to the bandwidth?
Mainly because those hulls are not supposed to use large drones, especially sentries in combat. They are supposed to use their main turrets / launchers, combined with Bastion mode to deliver damage, and use MJD to move around the battlefield. On those vessels, drones are limited to a support role, indicated by the low bandwidth. However, we have nothing against keeping a bit of flexibility by having high drone bays to allow replacement waves.
Why removing the web bonuses?
As we realized when internally playtesting iteration 2, web bonuses don't combine that well with hulls using MJDs to move around or increased projection in Bastion. When we gave them web bonuses we had to nerf them from 10% to 7.5% per level not to overstep on ships like the Vindicator, which by itself was a sign that we were trying to take over a role already fulfilled by the Pirate Battleships. Marauders are not supposed to fill the same niche than their Pirate counterpart, which led us to remove those web bonuses and revert back to iteration 1. Trying to hit orbiting NPC frigates at close range with those hulls is not a good idea either, just use your MJD and snipe them before they can come back in range. If you wish to hit close range targets, the Vindicator is much better for that purpose, as it is tailored for Blasters.
Why having a slighly nerfed max velocity next their tech I counterparts?
Those hulls are the very epitome of tanking, through the Bastion module. For balance purposes, they have to pay for that somehow. Max velocity nerf is a good way to compensate, especially when considering the fact they have MJDs at their disposal to hop around the battlefield. However, the first speed nerf was a bit harsh, which is why we are mitigating it by increasing their max velocity a bit next to iteration 1.
Why do those hulls have lower mass next to their tech I counterparts?
Having less mass help with max MWD velocity and align time. The first one partially helps to compensate the Max Velocity nerf (they're not as mobile than tech I, we estimate their top speed to be 10% slower with MWDs), the second one helps to make those hulls less vulnerable when coming out of bastion mode to align and warp out. Aligning is especially important for MJDs, and we estimated it was a good aspect to preserve.
Why buffing the EHP?
For being the epitome of tanking, they shouldn't have reduced EHP next to their tech I, Navy or Pirate counterpart. We wanted to avoid giving them full Tech II resists outside Basion Mode to avoid broad use in RR fleets, but we still felt the need to give them some buffer to help survivability as a whole. In practice, that means the Marauders now have 39-41k raw EHP, which compares favorably next to Navy Battleships (35-41k) or Pirate Battleships (34-41k).
Why nerfing the capacitor on the Paladin?
Combined with the Capacitor bonus it gets it was just too high before. It's not much of a nerf however, but it helps with the general balance of those hulls.
Why didn't you buff the fittings?
We estimate the CPU / PWG on them to be adequate. We are aware of some tight fittings, but we don't want those hulls to be able to easily fit a full rack of top tier turrets / launchers with Energy Neutralizers plus a full tank, as it would be quite over the top.
Why not moving a high-slot to med or low?
We feel like the extra high-slot to be needed to compensate for the use of the Bastion module - adding an extra med or low slot could make those hulls quite too much powerful in combat situations.
Why not adding damage to the Bastion mode?
Those hulls are not supposed to be outdamaging competition, as this would be favoring the power-creep. They are supposed to fulfill a different role / niche through their high tanks, stable weapon platforms (EW immunity, increase damage projection) and MJDs. It's all about trade-offs; if you wish more damaging hulls, then look for Pirate Battleships / Navy Battleships for that particular purpose, knowing full well you will pay for it in other areas.
Why keeping the damage projection in Bastion stacking penalized?
We want to keep the projection in check. A Paladin with Scorch can already reach insane ranges (to the point where Beams are quite redundant on it), so we are not willing to remove the stacking penalty for now. Or at least not until we are seeing some hard use numbers on TQ first.
What's the point of keeping tractor bonuses with the new deployable structure?
The new structure might not have the same attributes than the Marauders - it will only tractor one item at a time and while the tractor range will be longer than the Marauders, it won't be as fast (no tractor beam velocity bonus). I'll let CCP Fozzie explain the details.
Why would I want to use Marauders in Incursions now that the web bonus is gone?
There are other advantages to Marauders - internal play tests have shown us than kitting through the MJD bonus is very effective, as NPC warp scramblers don't stop you from using it. Plus their tank is good enough not to require Logistic support. Bottom line is, we are not willing to leave a web bonus on Marauders to cater to ultra-specialized Incursion fittings when that conflicts with our design goals and their role as a whole. Especially when alternative tactics exist that make them still very effective in Incursions.
Hope that helps, I will post the changes in the original thread ;)
And also this other stuff. Maaaan. (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3744070#post3744070)
Also Ytterbium
-have you considered replacing TP bonus on golem for an explosion radius bonus???
Ah yes, forgot to address that in the previous post :)
Yes, we did - it all comes down to this:
TP bonus:
+ More than one can be added, allowing to give more benefit than the explosion radius bonus. Especially useful due to the Bastion module that frees med slots.
+ Target painting affects a whole group of players
- Require med slots in the first place
Explosion radius bonus:
+ Doesn't require med slot in the first place
+ Always applied as long as you shoot
- Static, cannot be influenced by itself
- Doesn't affect other players
So far, we prefer the TP bonus - but that's debatable. The other Marauders don't rely on specific tackling / EW modules anymore (web bonus removed), thus it could make sense to remove it as well.
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I am satisfied. This whole fiasco has been like a horrible first lay.
First, CCP walks into the room wearing some sexy lingerie, and I'm like "oooooo, damn that bastion thong looks hot"
But then they slowly peel it down, and it's like the Congo down there. Hair everywhere. Holy shit. Like Chewbacca just walked through a static field. Mood is totally ruined. I can't even look at it. I feel like my life is in question.
But then they get all sad and leave the room for a few months, and come back, and everything looks all sweet and sexy again, and they finally mowed the lawn, and there's a great bang.
And now I have a decent marauder. Or something.
I had a lot of sugar today.
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I am satisfied. This whole fiasco has been like a horrible first lay.
First, CCP walks into the room wearing some sexy lingerie, and I'm like "oooooo, damn that bastion thong looks hot"
But then they slowly peel it down, and it's like the Congo down there. Hair everywhere. Holy shit. Like Chewbacca just walked through a static field. Mood is totally ruined. I can't even look at it. I feel like my life is in question.
But then they get all sad and leave the room for a few months, and come back, and everything looks all sweet and sexy again, and they finally mowed the lawn, and there's a great bang.
And now I have a decent marauder. Or something.
I had a lot of sugar today.
YOU TOO HUH CATCATKAT? I'VE BEEN EATING IT FROM THOSE SMALL PACKETS YOU GET IN CAFES. GONNA GO PASS OUT IN A SKIP OR SOMETHING NOW. :twisted:
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I don't think I like these for PVP situations at all.
Any other ship you are going to spend more than $1 billion on is going to do a lot more damage and not have the mobility issue. Bastion not increasing DPS is ridiculous?
I could see a gang of these being scary, but not nearly as much as a gang of Macharials or Bhaalgorns or Vindicators.
Am I missing something here or are these mostly set as mission runners?
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I don't think I like these for PVP situations at all.
Any other ship you are going to spend more than $1 billion on is going to do a lot more damage and not have the mobility issue. Bastion not increasing DPS is ridiculous?
I could see a gang of these being scary, but not nearly as much as a gang of Macharials or Bhaalgorns or Vindicators.
Am I missing something here or are these mostly set as mission runners?
I think you are, yes. You're assuming that an incredible active tank and lack of DPS/application bonuses must automatically mean mission runner. That is, frankly, a rather ignorant statement. It's not a DPS machine. It's not supposed to be one. It doesn't need to be one. CCP is introducing a new idea to the game, and we should be cheering them on - not demanding more of existing ship roles.
You cited 3 ships that you are more than welcome to use if DPS is your flavor. This is something new and different, and does not need to have a DPS bonus. I can't understand why people feel the need to shoehorn more DPS into a ship that is already borderline overpowered in tank.
The 'we want moar DPS' crowd should be satisfied with what they have already, or be open minded about trying something new. There is literally no reason why Marauders need to be DPS machines. CCP has made the right call by avoiding that sort of role overlap.
inb4 "needs DPS bonus to be good at PvP"
No, it doesn't. It needs either DPS or survivability. It has the latter in the form of an active tank. The Mach does not have incredible DPS, but it does have survivability. The Bhaalgorn does not have insane DPS, but it does have a crazy neut ability. The Widow does not have insane DPS, but it can jam you pretty damn swift. All of those examples can be destroyed if they are overwhelmed or countered properly.
Even the Vindicator's DPS doesn't count for much if it's overwhelmed.
Just like the Marauder.
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What the shit am I going to spend 125m3 of dronebay on when it's a 25mb bandwidth ship :eek:
Edit: Oh hey, turns out the Kronos has a 50mb bandwidth. Gogo medium drone flight!
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What the shit am I going to spend 125m3 of dronebay on when it's a 25mb bandwidth ship :eek:
Enough hobgoblins to clear the room without firing a single shot of your main guns? xD
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What the shit am I going to spend 125m3 of dronebay on when it's a 25mb bandwidth ship :eek:
We Have Reserves.
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What the shit am I going to spend 125m3 of dronebay on when it's a 25mb bandwidth ship :eek:
Enough hobgoblins to clear the room without firing a single shot of your main guns? xD
And 5 salvage drones.
I missed the change where the Kronos is now 50mb. 2x flight of 5 hobs, 5 salvage and 5 hammerheads.
Yes, because a ship that's using 4 125% bonused blasters, needs 5 medium drones on top.
Nom.
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The Marauders thread is ridiculously full of drama. Normally I dislike baltec1's posts, but he is doing God's Work in that thread.
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Rebuttal
Needs DPS or Utility (neuts, jams, webs) to be very useful for pvp. Overtank doesn't help all that much in group settings if more than a few ships in play. If the overtank ship isn't being shot at its bonus is effectively useless. Utility ships and DPS are useful when they aren't being shot at.
Spending $1 billion + on a boat that's good at being shot at might not be particularly useful when that same money can buy you things that kill things faster.
It will be sexy bait ship, or overtanked 'please shoot me' distraction ship for pvp. And an awesome mission and awesome incursion ship.
I like the MJD cool-off sniper applications, but not for that price. I think you can put a few snipeyapocs on field with MJD for the price of one of these?
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The Marauders thread is ridiculously full of drama. Normally I dislike baltec1's posts, but he is doing God's Work in that thread.
Dinsdale is crying endlessly about his loss of a web, apparently Marauders are forever useless without them and things will never be the same again.
That said, Marauders do get a damage bonus in this. The extension to optimal and falloff means you can hit your maximum damage at longer ranges, I'm getting rail like distances with blasters on a Kronos for example. Rail Kronos become supercharged snipers that can apply from a range beyond other people's optimal and comfortably soak up what hits it takes.
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The Marauders thread is ridiculously full of drama. Normally I dislike baltec1's posts, but he is doing God's Work in that thread.
Dinsdale is crying endlessly about his loss of a web, apparently Marauders are forever useless without them and things will never be the same again.
That said, Marauders do get a damage bonus in this. The extension to optimal and falloff means you can hit your maximum damage at longer ranges, I'm getting rail like distances with blasters on a Kronos for example. Rail Kronos become supercharged snipers that can apply from a range beyond other people's optimal and comfortably soak up what hits it takes.
I see a miss-match when a tank bonus is combined with a sniping bonus, no synergy :)
Speaking of which I would really really love to see more of a 'blink' specialist sort of ship, with super good MJD recharge and Optimal bonuses, but fragile glass cannon tank.
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Rebuttal
Needs DPS or Utility (neuts, jams, webs) to be very useful for pvp. Overtank doesn't help all that much in group settings if more than a few ships in play. If the overtank ship isn't being shot at its bonus is effectively useless. Utility ships and DPS are useful when they aren't being shot at.
Spending $1 billion + on a boat that's good at being shot at might not be particularly useful when that same money can buy you things that kill things faster.
It will be sexy bait ship, or overtanked 'please shoot me' distraction ship for pvp. And an awesome mission and awesome incursion ship.
I like the MJD cool-off sniper applications, but not for that price. I think you can put a few snipeyapocs on field with MJD for the price of one of these?
I think you can put a group of something equal or better on field for any 1B+ ship, including Vindicators and Bhaalgorns. I'm not sure that's an effective argument for why it isn't worthwhile.
That said, I can see where you're coming from on the useless bonus thing, but by that logic any tank bonus is useless. Why have tank bonuses at all if it's not being shot at?
Maybe I'm arguing in circles here or something, but I honestly don't see this as a travesty. I think the ships got a new lease on life, and I'm not particularly miffed if they didn't become the next best thing for PvP when there's plenty of great things in PvP already.
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Not miffed at all, don't consider it a travesty. I wasn't using them in pvp anyway before this. Wacky new ships and bonuses are cool and things (tm) will be figured out. Most every ship we use at one point had horribad or rediculous OP things.
Just trying to understand the logic behind the bonuses. The optimal thing is cool for high damage blasters, but the mid and long range weapons, if you are tagging people long range with a full set or range bonuses, you probably aren't getting shot back verymuch.
Just curious on opinions and how one would use them effectively when they put that much cash on-field.
My EFT-warrior-Fu is weak, I don't know how this ship quite stacks up for it's bastion-mega tank vs say getting reps from one or two t2 logis?
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The Marauders thread is ridiculously full of drama. Normally I dislike baltec1's posts, but he is doing God's Work in that thread.
Dinsdale is crying endlessly about his loss of a web, apparently Marauders are forever useless without them and things will never be the same again.
That said, Marauders do get a damage bonus in this. The extension to optimal and falloff means you can hit your maximum damage at longer ranges, I'm getting rail like distances with blasters on a Kronos for example. Rail Kronos become supercharged snipers that can apply from a range beyond other people's optimal and comfortably soak up what hits it takes.
I see a miss-match when a tank bonus is combined with a sniping bonus, no synergy :)
Speaking of which I would really really love to see more of a 'blink' specialist sort of ship, with super good MJD recharge and Optimal bonuses, but fragile glass cannon tank.
Except you stick blasters on it and it becomes an awesome brawler that hits out beyond pointrange with pretty decent tracking.
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I think the range bonuses shine with the short range ammo. Think about it. The bonuses turn the short range high damage ammos into medium range ammos. Void becomes the new Null, Conflag becomes the new Scorch, Hail becomes the new Javelin. Torps become... uhh... well, torps still aren't all that great compared to the newly buffed application and damage of cruises.
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I think the range bonuses shine with the short range ammo. Think about it. The bonuses turn the short range high damage ammos into medium range ammos. Void becomes the new Null, Conflag becomes the new Scorch, Hail becomes the new Javelin. Torps become... uhh... well, torps still aren't all that great compared to the newly buffed application and damage of cruises.
This.
And if you want slightly better range you can trade off a few points of damage and tracking and use short range Faction ammo.
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The optimal bonus only works if bastion is activated right? I guess this makes more sense as you'll be sitting still during activation?
I'd like it much more if Bastion was an all or nothing slider sort of thing, 'FULL POWER TO WEAPONS' or 'FULL POWER TO TANK' that you decide before you turn it on, with either application severely nerfing the other. Two different isotopes maybe for the different applications.
Then you get into neat tradeoffs where a few mauraders activate WTF bbq ability and become immediate threats, rather then them turning it on and nobody shooting them for a few minutes and focusing on their gangmates. They could even have the same visual que so you'd have to really guess which way they went, forcing you to waste time shooting ultimate tank while their friends nail you.
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I still have trouble seeing the value of being fixed for a minute in space when you can be probed down and warped to...
Unless they're thinking the tanking bonus is enough to survive getting jumped by everyone?
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I still have trouble seeing the value of being fixed for a minute in space when you can be probed down and warped to...
Unless they're thinking the tanking bonus is enough to survive getting jumped by everyone?
You're vulnerable to Alpha, but you tank non burst damage like a boss.
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I still have trouble seeing the value of being fixed for a minute in space when you can be probed down and warped to...
Unless they're thinking the tanking bonus is enough to survive getting jumped by everyone?
You're vulnerable to Alpha, but you tank non burst damage like a boss.
This, and simply knowing your weakness should prevent you from getting yourself in a situation where true alpha is a problem. Don't bastion if there's a gang of tornadoes in the mix, because you can't tank that.
The optimal bonus only works if bastion is activated right? I guess this makes more sense as you'll be sitting still during activation?
I'd like it much more if Bastion was an all or nothing slider sort of thing, 'FULL POWER TO WEAPONS' or 'FULL POWER TO TANK' that you decide before you turn it on, with either application severely nerfing the other. Two different isotopes maybe for the different applications.
Then you get into neat tradeoffs where a few mauraders activate WTF bbq ability and become immediate threats, rather then them turning it on and nobody shooting them for a few minutes and focusing on their gangmates. They could even have the same visual que so you'd have to really guess which way they went, forcing you to waste time shooting ultimate tank while their friends nail you.
I like this idea. You should post it on F&I.
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Programming difficulties aside, the primary difficulty I see in that is that if the "swap-over" were instantaneous it would allow you to effectively take on two specialized roles in battle - and EVE ships either tend to be "sorta good at many things" (the T1 dynamic) or "very good at one thing" (the T2 dynamic).
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Programming difficulties aside, the primary difficulty I see in that is that if the "swap-over" were instantaneous it would allow you to effectively take on two specialized roles in battle - and EVE ships either tend to be "sorta good at many things" (the T1 dynamic) or "very good at one thing" (the T2 dynamic).
Except HACs.
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I like this idea. You should post it on F&I.
done!
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=287288&find=unread
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The Marauders thread is ridiculously full of drama. Normally I dislike baltec1's posts, but he is doing God's Work in that thread.
Dinsdale is crying endlessly about his loss of a web, apparently Marauders are forever useless without them and things will never be the same again.
That said, Marauders do get a damage bonus in this. The extension to optimal and falloff means you can hit your maximum damage at longer ranges, I'm getting rail like distances with blasters on a Kronos for example. Rail Kronos become supercharged snipers that can apply from a range beyond other people's optimal and comfortably soak up what hits it takes.
I wonder if I should swap my pally for a blapping kronos... How far with antimatter again ?
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Using my proposed fit 6.8+34. Void (which is actually a lot better in paper DPS.) is 10+17, Null is 19+47.
My only question now is that +50 m3. Do I go with 5 hammerheads or 2x sentries and drop one of the repair rigs for a sentry rig.
Edit: Already answered, 5 Hammerheads it is.
Yay for a 1600 DPS mission boat.
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Bastion mode as it stands right now seems fine to me, having spent several hours testing it -outside- of PVE scenarios (yes, that means PVP) in the last few weeks. Have you even tried it on Sisi yet, Silas, or are you just going on hearsay?
It's pretty clear they're going to be absolutely terrible against large numbers of high-powered opponents. But against smaller gangs, or less powerful battleships, they will shine in small groups.
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All Hearsay All the Times :)
Had a good conversation in alliance yesterday we think these actually do have a super useful purpose:
High Sec POS Bashing.
Think of all those large towers in highsec that are virtually indestrutable full of hardners and jammers and guns.
Bastion fleet, immune to ewar, super tank for the POS guns.
Say goodbye to your previously cushy research towers.
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All Hearsay All the Times :)
Had a good conversation in alliance yesterday we think these actually do have a super useful purpose:
High Sec POS Bashing.
Think of all those large towers in highsec that are virtually indestrutable full of hardners and jammers and guns.
Bastion fleet, immune to ewar, super tank for the POS guns.
Say goodbye to your previously cushy research towers.
I'm pretty sure the biggest pos guns could alpha these things. I'll bet they come in handy for swatting POCO's when that becomes an option, though.
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The high resistances actually makes these ideal for swatting unmanned towers. If you've focused POS gunners though they'll probably break.
Then throw on the damage application bonuses and they'll be able to hit the tower through a large shield using high damage short range weaponry. They will make dickstar grinding less hell.
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Eeeeyup. And handy for getting rid of the annoying abandoned, offline POS that are all over the place. I've already got a few marked out I'd like to clean up. Just need to do some research on their owners first, then... waiting...
(@Silas) I really, really highly suggest you get onto Sisi and play with it a bit yourself. Like I said above, it's going to be decent at engaging and tanking -small- gangs (10 or below), but these by no means are going to be replacing battleship fleets (or faction battleship fleets) anytime soon. I will say that I think they may be a little over the top for PVE based on the numbers alone, but I also haven't had the opportunity to play around with them in missions on Sisi yet - and Cael's knowledgeable enough about PVE stuff that I'm usually good taking his word on this kind of thing at face value. ;)
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Bastion might be a nice GTFO timer for deagression. Your side losing? Activate bastion, tank damage while deagressing. Jump and MJD.
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You get a weapons timer for activating the Bastion module, so no.
You have to wait 60 seconds after it deactivates to jump through a gate or dock in a station.
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You get a weapons timer for activating the Bastion module, so no.
You have to wait 60 seconds after it deactivates to jump through a gate or dock in a station.
dat's awful.
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Yeah the 60 second weapons timer is one of the more universally disliked features of this.
So's the fact if you disconnect while missioning in one of these, when the client realises you've DC'd it'll turn off all modules and then fail to e-warp.
And will not attempt another e-warp when Bastion mode disengages. Hope you don't have a lot of rat aggro on you!
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The high resistances actually makes these ideal for swatting unmanned towers. If you've focused POS gunners though they'll probably break.
Then throw on the damage application bonuses and they'll be able to hit the tower through a large shield using high damage short range weaponry. They will make dickstar grinding less hell.
Considering the sheer amount of alpha power of large turrets (anti capitals), I am not sure...
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No, that's good. It means it ISN'T a "GTFO" button.
And anyone attempting to engage a Marauder should be packing a scram or two in their gang anyway - that's the only way to stop the MJD. That or neuts.
The issues with disconnecting and e-warps are separate. I like the weapons timer. Really like it. Because it means that they either have to survive 60 seconds after it deactivates (which, to be fair, could just be a really long warp, with the changes to warp speed/acceleration), or die a slow death eventually. I don't like that it flails about and shuts off modules when you disconnect and doesn't bother trying to warp out when the module shuts off.
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I can't fucking wait to fly one into battle, and kill some stuff. I'll probably die, but what fun!
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SiSi got updated to the latest version of Rubicon tonight, now with Paladin Bastion animations!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdtzVnpXgqI
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Except it's gonna take 5 days to train High Energy Physics to 4...didn't know this, so :urgh:
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Except it's gonna take 5 days to train High Energy Physics to 4...didn't know this, so :urgh:
5? I've got a perc/will setup and it only takes me 3.
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Impressed, I am not. Even compared to the other 3.