Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 30 Jul 2012, 16:58
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A bit of a blanket statement, and I go in aware that I might miss horribly, but I've been watching a bit of Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex recently and been thinking. We get a lot of the "high technology", such as capsule, pod, implants, so forth. But what I would like to see more of is living and domestic technology, stuff our characters talk about IC. It might be something Gallente/Caldari are used to (in terms of social distribution), but as capsuleers, we all have homogenized standards.
In this episode, a company takes genes from clients and splices them into pigs, growing them organs via this 'natural' method. If the client has an organ failure, it's taken from the pig. There's also stuff with androids (something mysteriously absent from RP), entire prosthetic bodies, cyberbrains, and so forth. In fact, the main method of how the characters communicate remotely in Ghost in the Shell is almost via a telepathy, but is actually just implant plugged into a neural network; sort of how I imagine capsuleers communicating when they go out and about.
I might be looking in the wrong areas of RP, and it might be that syndrome where since there's no "avatar play" in EVE, we're not given enough scope to imagine such things (outside of ship tech). There was an interesting discussion I drummed up in the Summit (at least I felt it was interesting), about android/gynoid maids in a hotel Seriphyn was staying at, and clients attempting to sexually harass/assault said droids would find themselves in an armlock and subdued for "unbecoming behaviour towards hotel property". I think we associate 'drones' immediately with the space kind, so that might be why we don't see them imagined in RP.
It's right in articles like caretaker drones (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caretaker_drone)...
Caretaker drones are, at their core, relatively simple devices. Most take a vaguely humanoid shape, with two arms, a torso, and a head with a “face”. Some have legs for locomotion, but many use treads or antigravity lifts for more efficient movement. Earlier drones were decidedly non-human and possessed a variety of forms; typically this meant several spider-like appendages and clusters of probes. However, these drones were found to be highly distressing, especially to children and patients with dementia, and were replaced with the more-familiar humanoid drones common today. These older drones still see some use as assistants to human nurses and in poverty-stricken areas where newer models cannot be afforded.
And AI (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/AI)...
Entertainment
AI performers, similar in construction to the Aura AI, have gained popularity in recent years, particularly in the Federation. AI musicians create inoffensive songs for mass consumption, with appearances designed to appeal to specific demographics, particularly teenagers. Virtual actors and actresses have starred in blockbuster holovids, with a certain subsection of the populace preferring them to flesh-and-blood performers.
Sort of tangentialized there, but rather than me assuming such ideas aren't used, what sort of domestic/lifestyle technology do you use in your roleplaying, or are apart of your character?
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Simca and Kat uses a robotic dog that emulates behaviors of real dogs, sorta. Kat uses a lot of futuretech in her kitchen. I make up vague and odd appliances that she cooks with all the time. Like that weird thing Beru Lars was putting cabbage inside in Star Wars: A New Hope.
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- Programmable/voice-responsive sticky notes (Post-ItsTM)
- Personal security drones (think floating balls of blasters).
- Injectable micro-cleaner bombs.
- Micro EMP Burst generators (Vieve's wedding ring is both beautiful and practical).
- Passive locator "dots". Stick one on someone's skin, and the microscopic grapples connected to it hook into the skin cells, essentially fusing them with the target's body. The dot is permeated with a marking chemical that makes it turn up on a handheld scanner, or to tracking drones.
- Automated police drones (their limited AIs allow them to parse potential criminal behavior from the holo monitoring/human voice stress level/biochemical sniffing they do).
- Automatic plant watering/fertilizing boxes.
- Automated snow/ice removal system.
- Eyedrops that temporarily change the color of one's eyes. ("Duvolle Blue Eleventy-Two").
- Manicure/pedicure colors that automatically change to a shade that complements one's outfit ("Artenails").
- Holoprint fabric that cycles through different patterns or designs.
I'm sure there are others. Those are the only ones I could think of right now.
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The thing about technology is that once humans integrate it into our life, we tend not to talk about it unless it's broken or we're a technophile. I use a computer every day, but have gotten into one 'computer discussion' in the last couple of months when a wire slipped and was tapping against one of the fans.
And people discuss or describe relevant matters. If I tell you that I made toast and eggs for breakfast, I assume you know that I have an oven with burners and a toaster. I won't sit there and describe this wonderful technology that lets me stick slices of bread into slots and toast them individually.
I occasionally have Makkal plug in her earjack; it's a device that pumps audio signals to the brain and also stimulates the amygdala, so the music will make you feel a certain way. She treats it the same way I treat headphone, which mean she assumes everyone knows what it is and how it works.
Likewise, when Seryph brought up the robot maid, Makkal reacted the same way she would if it were the modern day and a dude at a party decided to start a conversation about vacuum cleaners and how some people are sexually attracted to them.
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"The door dilated."
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Quotes from Hardwired...
I LOVE MY KIKUYU EYES, SEZ PRIMO PORNOSTAR ROD MCLEISH, AND WITH THE INFRARED OPTION, I CAN TELL IF MY PARTNER’S REALLY EXCITED OR IF I’M JUST ON A SILICON RIDE . . . KIKUYU OPTICS I.G., A DIVISION OF MIKOYAN-GUREVICH
ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE LOSES PATERNITY SUIT “MY LITTLE ANDROID HAS A NAME,” SOBS GRATEFUL MOTHER
KOROLEV I.G. OFFERS NO COMMENT
IS YOUR LOVER LOOKING FOR SOMEONE YOUNGER?
YOU CAN BE THAT SOMEONE!
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Gloves.
No, seriously; gloves. Think about it...
You're a rich capsuleer, in a cloned body. You know all the latest advances in biological weapons. You've transported viral agents, infections drone nanobots, and Lord knows how many impure, unwashed masses. How can you be absolutely certain that the next hand you shake doesn't contain any number of lethal pathogens (or unholy fluids)?
Why, gloves, that's how! Microsensors, specifically designed to recognize over 14,000 known pathogens, can be certain (within an error margin of 0.001%) that the next hand you shake, the next drink you take, the next neck you break, will be thoroughly scanned with out SCC patented heuristic algorithms!
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I wrote a story about the downsides of getting a perception implant. Istvaan (I think) has some old stories about a guy who has extensive implants to help him work the black markets.
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I've tried to do this before.
I often get told it's 'godmoding'. :s
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I should try to RP a little more scify gimmicks. But otherwise I already have tried to create several bigger tech projects like VRs, etc.
thumbs up
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I agree. More Sci-fi stuff please!
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Is it sci-fi tech if it is essentially an iteration on tech we use everyday?
20 years ago, the data pad, communicator, Tricorder, etc were effectively science fiction (& ubiquitous in Star Trek). Now they are ubiquitous in many modern technological societies (iPad/Tablets, Bluetooth Headset, Smart Phone). The "little" details of our lives are filled with what 20 years ago was science fiction and short of describing the keyboard/interface as being a holographic projection instead of a physical item (you can have that too! (http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/e722/?srp=2)) there isn't much we can do with the details of our capsuleers lives other than making items we use everyday more compact and smaller.
As I read through Vieve's list, I can think through the iterations of modern technology to make those things happen. The ones I have the hardest time thinking through are the eye drops & nails - but readily available nano-bots should make that possible.
I say all of the above to come back to an important point.
The items that really make Eve (& other current Sci-Fi) Science Fiction is not the little items they use everyday - those are being built and sold within years of the idea being presented. It is the big things we have yet to create - FTL Communications, FTL Travel, Abundant Energy (Fusion or more exotic), vast space stations, planetary colonies, & interstellar empires - that are the strongest science fiction elements.
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I'd personally like to see more RP and discussion around the implications of the big ticket items just mentioned. FTL doesn't just mean "really fast versions of what we have", and the cultural implications of (say) people who live their entire lives in space doesn't get much play in public.
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Is it sci-fi tech if it is essentially an iteration on tech we use everyday?
Yes.
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The ones I have the hardest time thinking through are the eye drops & nails - but readily available nano-bots should make that possible.
The ArteNails were inspired by the original Total Recall, which I watched when I was a k... er, in college. The receptionist at Rekall, Inc., had a board on her desk attached to a stylus. The board had different colored buttons. Whenever she pushed a button and touched the stylus to one of her manicured fingernails, the fingernail turned that color. The fingernails appeared artificial (that technology's readily available today), so I suspected they were manufactured with a plastic that changes color in response to an electronic signal.
The tech in my head about the artificial fingernails involves onboard microscopic light sensors that process color and change to duplicate it. The ArteNails themselves take two forms: one's a cheap thin film that can be pressed onto natural or artificial fingernails (just like modern-day nail polish stickers). It doesn't have much in the way of processing power, so it doesn't do as efficient or as subtle a job of changing itself to suit its wearer's attire. The other form is an expensive natural nail replacement.
Not sure nano-bots would be needed for the optical dye. Just very fine particle dye that attaches to the iris. If I could remember my blasted biochemistry (the textbooks are still boxed up in the basement, else I'd go check), I'd speculate that there were some unique proteins there that made for something the dye could hook to without spilling out onto the schlera. But I can't, so I won't.
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While I'm at it, I assume birthcontrol in the future will be more sophisticated than a rubber or a monthly pill.
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Well, it is now, too, so that makes sense. I mean, we already have biological implants that take care of it for many years.
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Cybernetic eye stalks. Ruby has them.
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While I'm at it, I assume birthcontrol in the future will be more sophisticated than a rubber or a monthly pill.
If not that, people have the option of having their clones engineered to be sterile in the first place. Prefect option for those who don't wish to have an accidental "oops." :lol:
Anyhow, after watching some of the Avengers cartoon series, I could see power suits similar to the Ironman one being around in the EVE universe. Especially for ground combat.
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If not that, people have the option of having their clones engineered to be sterile in the first place. Prefect option for those who don't wish to have an accidental "oops." :lol:
This. For me it's the default.
Mata's from well before the change to the new player experience which means you now have your original body euthanised. I've long played that the default--for a woman, at least--is that your original body is fertile and your subsequent meat-puppets aren't. Podders who cared about this sort of thing got jump clones early and carefully didn't lose a pod before then. I've also played that it's normal as part of training to have a range of samples taken and stored for later use in doping meat-puppets, insemination, IVF, gene-splicing, etc. My approach has been that you need to make a choice to (a) bring out the fertile original body (for old-timers); (b) bring out the samples; or (c) engage the appropriate skilled people to craft functional gametes or gamete-making systems and insert them into your meat-puppet in ways which mean they're not contaminated by any other DNA in our chimera bodies. That might mean you have one of your bodies modified by a discreet fertility team in Oursulaert and then continue "as normal", or it might mean sending samples to that team and getting news within a year that your bundle of joy is ready for delivery.
For quite a few characters it seems to have been important to their stories that they be fertile. I work around the permutations of this by assuming that there's variation in cloning services, with medical advances all the time. I still find the idea of unwanted podder pregnancies odd. Against that, I now very much get the social contexts where it's considered appropriate to leave such matters to the ancestors or to Fortune, and deal with the consequences... which was one of the things I wanted to explore playing someone from a pro-natalist background.
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IIRC, there was actually a dev response in the last month or two clarifying that capsuleers ARE fertile. Will search for it later unless someone beats me to it. :)
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Yes, please: I'd love to know more, especially if it casts light on the "cloning" process (that's apparently anything but actual cloning).
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IIRC, there was actually a dev response in the last month or two clarifying that capsuleers ARE fertile. Will search for it later unless someone beats me to it. :)
See the thread Can capsuleers have children? (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76497&find=unread) in which Abraxas says (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=925223#post925223):
Here's one: Capsuleers are not sterile by default, nor do they have any missing organs or interior plumbing. There is a slightly stronger tendency among them to have that stuff removed than there is among the general population, but it's not anywhere near a majority of the entire capsuleer class.
You don't see capsuleers (at least not the ones I've encountered) taking steps to rid themselves of any other base desires - greed, resentment, anger or hate - and I truly don't see them wanting to rid themselves of the sexual one, either. Moreover, we don't want the capsuleer option to be "You'll be rich and powerful beyond your wildest dreams ... but you can never have children." It's a decent hook for a story or two at most, but for any writing work beyond that, it's far too restrictive.
So if they want, they can, but they don't have to.
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I was thinking on this last night, came up with an idea that built on the topic a while ago about augmentation where it was said that if you say wanted to have augmented muscles you needed the bones to be stronger.
Now this made me think, its virtually impossible to replace your entire skeleton with hardened bones. But! with EVE's level tech and the use of nanites I was thinking that, if a small amount of nanites where injected to critical points in the body and/or bone structure itself (potentially during clone development) which adds a compound that uses the bone material itself as a basis for a metallic/organic compound that has much greater strength and thereby allowing more serious augmentation.
As a side note, i had a shiny piece of sci fi tech a while back that I haven't used in ages in my RP, essentially was a camo cloak - heavy nanites infused weave that when standing in shadows (only in shadow) changed the external appearance to mimic the darkened surfaces behind it - I also seem to vaguely remember something similar to this being used in PF but I cant for the life of me remember where I saw it.
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The modifications to Katla's body/clones include a reinforced skeleton and synthetic muscle grafts. Not for any combat purpose, but simply to prevent bone and muscle atrophy from extended stays in her preferred low-/zero-gravity environment.
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IIRC, there was actually a dev response in the last month or two clarifying that capsuleers ARE fertile. Will search for it later unless someone beats me to it. :)
See the thread Can capsuleers have children? (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=76497&find=unread) in which Abraxas says (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=925223#post925223):
Here's one: Capsuleers are not sterile by default, nor do they have any missing organs or interior plumbing. There is a slightly stronger tendency among them to have that stuff removed than there is among the general population, but it's not anywhere near a majority of the entire capsuleer class.
You don't see capsuleers (at least not the ones I've encountered) taking steps to rid themselves of any other base desires - greed, resentment, anger or hate - and I truly don't see them wanting to rid themselves of the sexual one, either. Moreover, we don't want the capsuleer option to be "You'll be rich and powerful beyond your wildest dreams ... but you can never have children." It's a decent hook for a story or two at most, but for any writing work beyond that, it's far too restrictive.
So if they want, they can, but they don't have to.
Which is fine--and pretty much as it's being played these days--but sounds as though Abraxas is saying "clones" are clones--which is not what the cloning article says--or that there's something in EVE's Future Science which means that the doping of the biomass-built body with the client's DNA includes a way to replicate the effects of oocytogenesis (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Oocytogenesis).
It'd be kinda nice to know which.
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Which is fine--and pretty much as it's being played these days--but sounds as though Abraxas is saying "clones" are clones--which is not what the cloning article says--or that there's something in EVE's Future Science which means that the doping of the biomass-built body with the client's DNA includes a way to replicate the effects of oocytogenesis (http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Oocytogenesis).
It'd be kinda nice to know which.
Two issues here. First, that of "literary conceit". Second, that of "true science vs. fictional science".
The literary conceit of cloning is that it is you in the sense that everything you are transfers, as a way of explaining how you can go from copy to copy and retain knowledge. It's a way to explain the respawn mechanic, and help with the willful suspension of disbelief in the setting.
Combined with the assumption that these clones follow scientific principles, sometimes that believable explanation of "It's a clone body, get over it" falls apart if you know enough about real science. ;) I doubt Abraxas has studied the concept of cloning (and the biological processes that by the nature of reality must occur in such a body) in depth.
A few years ago a friend developed a tabletop game that included cloning. In this setting, genetic engineering and gene splicing took center stage. The characters were established as being sterile prior to the game starting, for the simple reason that due to the genetic changes that occurred to each and every character, it simply wasn't feasible to allow them to breed. What happens to a character spliced with cheetah DNA if they breed with someone with lizard DNA? What's the likelihood of the mother's body flat-out rejecting the fetus? Questions like that were simply answered by "Your character can't have children, period." There was a wonderful RP situation that occurred when a character became pregnant due to being attacked by a member of the main enemy species in the game, and an unscrupulous scientist trying to play god and trying to become immortal - because that's what insane scientists that are nearly immortal themselves tend to do, right? Body horror and questions of morality quickly ensued; needless to say, the movie Prometheus doesn't seem all that original to me as a result. :P.
In EVE, the question is more what exactly is a clone, and how accurate that depiction is to true biological principles. CCP is more interested in what makes a good story than what makes good science, which is fine from a certain point of view. The whole concept of having a child is slightly out of the realm of in-game mechanics (thankfully), so it lands firmly in the realm of fiction and RP.
So, how much hard science you want in EVE depends on how much research must be done to accurately depict the setting.
Did that make any sense? I just had my caffeine so feel free to correct my rambling. :D
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Now this made me think, its virtually impossible to replace your entire skeleton with hardened bones. But! with EVE's level tech and the use of nanites I was thinking that, if a small amount of nanites where injected to critical points in the body and/or bone structure itself (potentially during clone development) which adds a compound that uses the bone material itself as a basis for a metallic/organic compound that has much greater strength and thereby allowing more serious augmentation.
I thought Eve clones had malleable plastic for bones, so that you can mold them to fit the clients requirements at short notice?
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Two issues here. First, that of "literary conceit". Second, that of "true science vs. fictional science".
The literary conceit of cloning is that it is you in the sense that everything you are transfers, as a way of explaining how you can go from copy to copy and retain knowledge. It's a way to explain the respawn mechanic, and help with the willful suspension of disbelief in the setting.
<snip>
So, how much hard science you want in EVE depends on how much research must be done to accurately depict the setting.
Did that make any sense? I just had my caffeine so feel free to correct my rambling. :D
EVE's capsule cloning is primarily a way to explain its respawn mechanics. I think it works well for that. I like the fact that it makes enough sense within the world framework that we can talk about it IC and have it as part of our characters' lives. Props to CCP for that.
The bodies we live in also affect a lot of other things, so there's a strong motivation to derive consequences and implications from the initial conditions. That's where things can get a bit stickier, as we bring different knowledge, desires and and assumptions to the world-building.
If we used real clones I'd have no problems with fertility, but some issues with the timing and ethics of growing them for use. (I might bring up telomere fraying, but I don't think we've had time yet for that to be an issue and I'm happy enough to assume we have a telomere hack.) Since we don't use real clones, but manufacture bodies from biomass and osteoplast which are then doped with the client's DNA, I do expect there to be differences. Istvaan shaped some of my assumptions with his early stories, and other things flowed from there.*
Anyway, it seems we now have the answer that it's normal to have the special work done that means a female capsuleer has oocytes made for her "clones". It still seems to me that the logical form of contraception for "clone"-users would be to order your bodies without that by default--have all the bits, just don't pre-load the ovaries--and then commission a fertile version when you actually wanted to use it. I imagine there's quite a lot of variation out there about how this is handled.
*“Now, a couple of quick questions”, Farrad cooed, tapping keys on a pad on the side of the mod-bed and waving another surgeon over to assist him. “Are you fresh squeezed, or from concentrate?” The fetishist was, of course, referring to Hamish’s clone status – the skeletal structure of clones was quite different from that of trueborn human beings. Hamish had never been cloned.
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I thought Eve clones had malleable plastic for bones, so that you can mold them to fit the clients requirements at short notice?
Some of them, in some circumstances. We don't know if it's always the case.
And we've had this discussion here before, as I was reminded while looking for the Infection link: http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=2593.msg37191#msg37191
In the light of Abraxas' comments I think I'm going to have to read the cloning article yet again to see if I can squeeze out an interpretation that means that some "clones" are clones. It would simplify some things.
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I've tried to do this before.
I often get told it's 'godmoding'. :s
Depends on the tech you're dealing with, but yeah, mostly this.
Particularly an issue where you have any sort of conflict happening outside the pod. For example,
"Weapons aren't allowed in here, how did you just pull a gun?"
"It was hidden."
"Um, no, we've got the best scanners in the cluster watching the door, you can't just shove it up your ass and expect to get through."
"It's designed to get past your scanners."
"Why do I RP with you again?"
I recall one fight Stecker was involved in early in my EVE career that involved a cyborg/robot, a cybernetically enhanced and armed killer, and a genetically modified psychotic killing machine. It was a lot of fun, but in retrospect it really was the clash of the godmoders, involving superhuman reflexes, extremely powerful weaponry, personal shields, etc. Eventually one member of the fight was willing at admit defeat - the robot proceeded to self destruct like the fucking coward he was :evil:
It's hard to figure out the line where things that seem entirely plausible (weapons scanners, biometric scanners that can detect lies far better than today's detectors, etc) start to seem like godmoding because they shut down someone else's RP plan.
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I'm not even just talking about weapons - though that's certainly an area where it tends to show up.
I've been called on "godmodding" in situations involving everything from an antitampering system based on the unique decay patterns of a cluster of radionuclides to a real-time data link with another spacecraft in orbit to the use of softball-sized surveillance drones.
Sometimes I think it has to do with peoples understandings of these things - i.e., person A explains their drug detection system with a perfectly logical, reasonable, and well-grounded scientific explanation. Person B doesn't actually get a lot of that stuff, so they just hear a a line of technobabbly stuff that ends up being a foil to something they were doing. Person B calls hax and godmodding, because to them that's exactly what it is.
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Sometimes I think it has to do with peoples understandings of these things - i.e., person A explains their drug detection system with a perfectly logical, reasonable, and well-grounded scientific explanation. Person B doesn't actually get a lot of that stuff, so they just hear a a line of technobabbly stuff that ends up being a foil to something they were doing. Person B calls hax and godmodding, because to them that's exactly what it is.
I just call it witchcraft tbh.
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"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -Arthur C. Clarke
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I think its about personal preference.
/me sips tea.
/me extends her hand with her pinkie finger extended to an exquisite china cup that has been in the family for the past 12000 years and takes a sip of delicious beverage that has been made by pouring hot water on top of the cured leaves of the Camellia Sinensis plant that was harvested from the north side of Mount Ardishapur.
/me makes some tea.
/me turns on the ferminator-2700 and pulls a few levers and some brown sludge appears in a china cup.
Basically the day to day sci-fi tech is no different than us using a hotplate to heat things up.
We do it without thinking about the complicated mechanisms and the infrastructure needed to be able to use a hotplate.
There is no need to create a sci-fi background of servant drones (live or robotic) to accomplish a task that is simple to the character, but you can.
That is the personal preference.
The problem for me is the fact that it tends to clog up the channel, just like someone emoting every single air current playing with their wonderful dress and their hair, it takes the focus away from the social interaction itself.
Glorifying some aspect of the character that the player finds extremely interesting that may be utterly boring for everyone else present.
I guess its like sex in the RP circles, its fine as long as you don't do it in the public.
Then the sci-fi warfare in channels to restrict different kinds of roleplay.
I just think that if people need to determine OOC rules for IC interaction there is no real need for sci-fi tech.
Rules can be just agreed upon.
Someone breaks those predetermined rules just for their own dramallama they get kicked from the channel and told that shit like that just does not fly and they should grow up and learn how to play with other children.
I guess KISS still works here.