Estimated total population: 21,449,105,690,000 (29%)
Amarr: 74% 15,872,338,210,000 (74%)
Caldari: 3,860,839,024,000 (14%)
Gallente: 1,501,437,398,000 (7%)
Enslave Minmatar: 10,712,558,277,000 (14%)
Free Minmatar: 214,491,056,000 (1%)
Percentage of people actively practicing religion: 98%
Average numbers of slaves per household: 6.7
I mailed CCP Falcon about the numbers after I saw the preview pages, a few weeks ago. They fixed them for the actual book release. The current page looks like this:+1
[spoiler](http://i.imgur.com/uQNWB30.jpg?1)[/spoiler]
Additionally, while it's not listed in the book, Falcon told me that 49% of people in the Empire are slaves, so that's an additional 20 trillion people to the total population, of which about half are Minmatar.
Based on the two sets of stats, the actual total population of the Empire, both free and slaves, should be something like:
38% Free Amarr (16 trillion)
9% Free Caldari (3.8 trillion)
3% Free Gallente (1.5 trillion)
0.4% Free Minmatar (0.2 trillion)
25.6% Enslaved Minmatar (10.8 trillion)
24% Slaves of non-Matari ethnicity (9.7 trillion)
Falcon wouldn't confirm those numbers when I asked, but based on the number we have and the numbers he's given me, that seems about right.
Falcon also said that these numbers don't include the Khanid Kingdom or the Ammatar Mandate.
The 29% is in regards to total cluster population. Free Imperials make up a full third of New Eden's overall population. When you add in slaves, the Kingdom, and the Mandate... the Imperial bloc makes up something around 60-70% of the clusterwide population. Yowzers.+1
Slaves add another 20 trillion ish to the Empire (and the numbers already established that 21 trillion is about 29%). So just the Empire, free and slave, is 58-60% on its own. Then you add in the Kingdom and the Mandate.
Additionally, while it's not listed in the book, Falcon told me that 49% of people in the Empire are slaves.
See my above post. I don't actually think Mandate and Kingdom are counted, as they may not be considered part of empire space (which is what we are counting, I was wrong to say total New Eden population earlier and have edited my post).Nevermind... I have edit my post to.... just not to lost my string of thoughts.... Dont see it as counter argument. :lol: More as that Im to lazy to keep everything in mind.... So I had write it down. :lol:
Also, Falcon confirmed that the State has the smallest population of the 4 empires.
It's the latter. 13.7 trillion Caldari total in the State, Federation, and Empire (there's probably some in the Republic too, so probably more than 13.7t). 5.2 trillion are abroad (in the Fed and Empire at least).
It's the latter. 13.7 trillion Caldari total in the State, Federation, and Empire (there's probably some in the Republic too, so probably more than 13.7t). 5.2 trillion are abroad (in the Fed and Empire at least).
I was leaning towards that, but it's still not clarified for me.
Also, in terms of realpolitik the sheer scale of the Imperial population and its territorial size combined with its traditional foreign policies is probably enough to make every other faction in New Eden very wary about them.
It's the latter. 13.7 trillion Caldari total in the State, Federation, and Empire (there's probably some in the Republic too, so probably more than 13.7t). 5.2 trillion are abroad (in the Fed and Empire at least).
I was leaning towards that, but it's still not clarified for me.
Also, in terms of realpolitik the sheer scale of the Imperial population and its territorial size combined with its traditional foreign policies is probably enough to make every other faction in New Eden very wary about them.
More weird is that I had long ago a discussion about the population of planets: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=64529&p=3
Lets see again: Free 21,449 Trillions (51%).... Slaves 20,607.862 (49%) lets round down to 20,607 Trillions (49%), which gives a total of 24,056 trillions by ~673 temperate planets. Which would give us 35.744 trillions per temperate planet. :eek:
It's the latter. 13.7 trillion Caldari total in the State, Federation, and Empire (there's probably some in the Republic too, so probably more than 13.7t). 5.2 trillion are abroad (in the Fed and Empire at least).
I was leaning towards that, but it's still not clarified for me.
Also, in terms of realpolitik the sheer scale of the Imperial population and its territorial size combined with its traditional foreign policies is probably enough to make every other faction in New Eden very wary about them.
More weird is that I had long ago a discussion about the population of planets: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=64529&p=3
Lets see again: Free 21.449 Trillions (51%).... Slaves 20.607,862 (49%) lets round down to 20.607 Trillions (49%), which gives a total of 42.056 trillions by ~673 temperate planets. Which would give us 62,49 Billions per temperate planet. :eek:
Do you mean 35.744 Billion per temperate planet? That does seem high, but I don't think every one lives on temperate planets. Even then, I think the Gallente at least are hinted at having environmental technology that could keep a biosphere inhabited even with tens of billions of people. Then there's the fact that the technology in Eve probably allows for habitation in many ways: Massive megacities of interlinked, towering arcologies; subterranean geo-fronts; under water enclaves; stratospheric structures; orbital elevators; or low-orbit facilities.
Yeah I had a typo... 24 was 42 and yes...billions. But still I think 62,49 Billions per temperate planet is alittle high (even if we take barren worlds, oceanic worlds, stations, etc into account.... you would still land around ~20-30 billions for EVERY temperate world..). Is a bit much for me, but nevermind. Maybe the book will tell more, I heard that it mention praying by zero gravity. :lol: I think Torfi mention it ones by a youtube vid. :D So I dont mind the numbers, I was just curious.... So dont see it as critique.
As I mention ones on another place before, I have just get into more the space opera mood. :
Also, Falcon confirmed that the State has the smallest population of the 4 empires.
Additionally, while it's not listed in the book, Falcon told me that 49% of people in the Empire are slaves.
Yeah. :D As well as the underwater cities.... In the "day of darkness II" vid had they made one.... Just beautiful. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGJHjKUvHlk
Yeah I had a typo... 24 was 42 and yes...billions. But still I think 62,49 Billions per temperate planet is alittle high (even if we take barren worlds, oceanic worlds, stations, etc into account.... you would still land around ~20-30 billions for EVERY temperate world..). Is a bit much for me, but nevermind. Maybe the book will tell more, I heard that it mention praying by zero gravity. :lol: I think Torfi mention it ones by a youtube vid. :D So I dont mind the numbers, I was just curious.... So dont see it as critique.
As I mention ones on another place before, I have just get into more the space opera mood. :
I think it makes things interesting. I can just imagine modern Athra covered in sprawling continent sized cities of towering golden cathedral towers hundreds of metres high, full of the vibrancy and life of Imperial culture in a planetary scale urban domain.
Woot, mine finally came today. Queue rageposts in 10...9...8...
Woot, mine finally came today. Queue rageposts in 10...9...8...
My will come around the 28 march. I had just order yesterday. :(
How is it? I mean the art work looked great. As well as I have to agree, on one post in the other threat, that the preview show that 90% are more or less the same. So maybe you can give us some spoilers. :D I dont mind some spoilers. Things you liked and and stuff what you dont liked?
I have no problem with Caldari-related topics. As former Kingdom RPler I saw myself with one foot in the Empire and one in the State. So I dont mind if you focus on them.....Woot, mine finally came today. Queue rageposts in 10...9...8...
My will come around the 28 march. I had just order yesterday. :(
How is it? I mean the art work looked great. As well as I have to agree, on one post in the other threat, that the preview show that 90% are more or less the same. So maybe you can give us some spoilers. :D I dont mind some spoilers. Things you liked and and stuff what you dont liked?
Currently reading bits and pieces when I take a break from schoolwork. I'll sit down and read it cover to cover tonight and give my initial thoughts - since this is me, most of them will probably be Caldari-related. My favorite part so far is the introduction where it clearly states that Source is a depiction of the "world as it is". Backs up Falcon's comments about Source being the definitive PF. Regardless of whether things in it upset people, it will be useful to have a definitive PF source.
I will be doing likewise tonight, Jace. It will be interesting to see where we are similar or different in our opinions on specific topics.Would be great to hear... So dont let me wait :)
I can't help but feel this is the elephant in the room, but for those who have it, could we get the Minmatar and Gallente figures too?You mean with "elephant in the room", that the Empire is so large and/or has a large average planet population? Yeah, I thought this too. But you know space magic. :P
I'm not going to have time to read everything tonight like I had planned, but I will definitely post my Caldari thoughts when I have the time. I've already noticed some significant emphasis and possible retcons.
Edit: First Thought: They are not backing away from the neofascist feel. It is looking unlikely that it can be as attributed to Heth as some are wont to do. That'll be all I have until I finish some papers.
As I mention here (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1247411#post1247411): "By the way: Those anyone know when the immersion projects comes ingame? I mean it would be a nice and easy addition and would make our little round table (Publius waves to all earlier comments in this thread) bigger."
*snip*
You'll be excited. They totally changed the name of Caille.
Mods gonna mod. :s[admin]Yup. Temp lock for moderation.
Mods gonna mod. :sYup. Temp lock for moderation.
EDIT: Topic re-opened. Participants are encouraged to review Rule 5 regarding respect of US law (as the board is hosted by a US-based company on a machine located on US soil). This includes US copyright law.
I don't have the book, so can't say in regards to the population presented in the book, but if we take previous given estimates...
Gallente Federation is 20% of total clusterwide population. (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Gallente_Federation)
Minmatar in the Empire make up a third of all Minmatar everywhere, Minmatar in the Republic make up a quarter. (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Minmatar_Republic#History) So there are ~33 trillion Minmatar total, and about 8.3 trillion in the Republic. Adding in non-Matari immigrants, that probably gets up to 9-10 trillion in the Republic. Thukker don't count, as they aren't in empire space (as the numbers are only factoring in empire space). So Republic makes up about... uh, 13% ish?
State is the smallest, and makes up everything else.
It's possible that the Kingdom and Mandate aren't counted as empire space (to clarify, I meant empire space before, not all of New Eden), and so aren't included in that total population count. That would leave around 59% Empire (29% free, 28% enslaved), 20% Federation, ~13% Republic, ~8% State.
Like I said, I don't have the book, so I can't say if these numbers are right.
The actual figure for percentage of enslaved people in the Empire is 49% of the total population.
-CCP Falcon
While exact numbers are difficult to come by, because of the sheer number of slaves, it is estimated that between 50% and 75% of the Empire's current slave stock are Minmatar. All of these slaves come from lines that have been enslaved for less than 9 generations.
- Slavery (https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Slavery#Demographics)
The other thing I do not quite like about the book is the Amarr chapter, which seems to make it a point to bring up slavery over and over and over again. Also, the Amarr faith system isn't discussed in much details. Whole chunks about governance and politics, another whole chunks about slavery, nothing but references to The Scriptures, some snippets on what The Scriptures are and another huge chunk about slavery with smaller chunks interspersed into other chunks.
On the other hand, I felt that the Gallente chapter was relatively well written. It discusses alot about their democratic systems, and the times democracy failed, the different players of the Federation and exploring the multiple angles of the Federation, from the left to the right, from the Jin-Mei's caste system to the once-primitive Manarr slave-taking ways, from wealthy to destitute and that little thing about the Gallente smug cultural superiority and passive indoctrination of the Gallente way. The short story portion itself is also pretty well written, showing very well what the character thinks of his position, and of others and his naivete when dealing with the Civire musician.
Oh, I agree that it didn't put in a whole lot of new material. My issue is that if someone reads just Source, they would come to the conclusion that all there is to Amarr at all is just racism, imperialism, and slavery; this is not at all accurate. Not every Amarr is a bigoted, isolationist slaveholder... but if I didn't already know my lore pretty heavily, I'd not get that picture from Source.
Oh, I agree that it didn't put in a whole lot of new material. My issue is that if someone reads just Source, they would come to the conclusion that all there is to Amarr at all is just racism, imperialism, and slavery; this is not at all accurate. Not every Amarr is a bigoted, isolationist slaveholder... but if I didn't already know my lore pretty heavily, I'd not get that picture from Source.
I was especially glad to see it firmly stated that the 'True Amarr are the Chosen by culture and Scripture', as it's always been the case but was largely left out of the recent EVElopedia articles despite the fact being such an essential part of the culture.
I didn't see anything out of place with the stuff I've already read, save the one thing Nico pointed out in the other thread. I was especially glad to see it firmly stated that the 'True Amarr are the Chosen by culture and Scripture', as it's always been the case but was largely left out of the recent EVElopedia articles despite the fact being such an essential part of the culture.
They do go into slaves-should-not-be-treated-overly-poorly, but that's primarily detailed in the Amarr and Minmatar short stories rather than the Amarr chapter text (which mostly just repeats and summarizes everything on EVElopedia already).
I would have liked to see more on the religious rituals and daily culture in the Amarr chapter, and the Minmatar chapter. The Amarr short story did give us some stuff in that regard, at least.
I think the thing I dislike the most is the requirement of capsuleers being super physically fit. DUSTies are the physical ones, we're supposed to be the brains-in-machines.
Overall, I think the big problem with Source was really that it was trying to do too much in one book. I'd really like to see individual source books for each empire, rather than trying to scrunch everything into one book. Page space requirements heavily limit how much detail is available. Caldari for example get a ton of cultural stuff because they have only a page of history. Amarr have very little because so much of their pages are reserved for the history. Minmatar have less info about Republic culture because having so many tribes and Minmatar outside the Republic necessitated a lot of space on that.
I was especially glad to see it firmly stated that the 'True Amarr are the Chosen by culture and Scripture', as it's always been the case but was largely left out of the recent EVElopedia articles despite the fact being such an essential part of the culture.
I'd beg to differ: While it's true that the Amarr were always portrayed as being ethnocentric to the degree of culturally established view True Amarr as superior by race, there has been a lot of nuance in that showing how there were degrees in that between Sabik sects that believed that Amarr were born with spores on their heels and everyone else with saddles on their back, while Amarr orthodoxy was theologically more a sophisticated ethnocentrism, which found it's expression in the folklore simplified to racism.
Scripture - as far as the snippets we have go - never really pointed at a racist teaching of True Amarr superiority either, rather it was giving quite some room of interpretation from an ethocentrism of Amarr as choosen people up to a more ethiccentered view of stressing righteous life in fear of God as the important part.
EVE: Source dumbed that down to a teaching of racial superiority that is supposedly culturally as well as Scripturally anchored and which conflicts actually with a lot of what has been established about the Sabik vs Amarr Orthodoxy distinction. It is taking dimensionality out of the Amarr culture and reduces the shades of grey for the dubious gain of 'clarity'.
To me, that is a bad move, though I see how people who were interpreting PF so far as Amarr being simply racist feel vindicated by it.
I was especially glad to see it firmly stated that the 'True Amarr are the Chosen by culture and Scripture', as it's always been the case but was largely left out of the recent EVElopedia articles despite the fact being such an essential part of the culture.
I'd beg to differ: While it's true that the Amarr were always portrayed as being ethnocentric to the degree of culturally established view True Amarr as superior by race, there has been a lot of nuance in that showing how there were degrees in that between Sabik sects that believed that Amarr were born with spores on their heels and everyone else with saddles on their back, while Amarr orthodoxy was theologically more a sophisticated ethnocentrism, which found it's expression in the folklore simplified to racism.
Scripture - as far as the snippets we have go - never really pointed at a racist teaching of True Amarr superiority either, rather it was giving quite some room of interpretation from an ethocentrism of Amarr as choosen people up to a more ethiccentered view of stressing righteous life in fear of God as the important part.
EVE: Source dumbed that down to a teaching of racial superiority that is supposedly culturally as well as Scripturally anchored and which conflicts actually with a lot of what has been established about the Sabik vs Amarr Orthodoxy distinction. It is taking dimensionality out of the Amarr culture and reduces the shades of grey for the dubious gain of 'clarity'.
To me, that is a bad move, though I see how people who were interpreting PF so far as Amarr being simply racist feel vindicated by it.
While the champion himself must be of pure Amarrian descent, his wingmen are said to be allowed to be of any race and bloodline.
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=171&tid=4&_ga=1.39545891.1867853888.1395525975
The arrest is said to come after the journalist interrupted a scripted press event with questions regarding a debated decision by the Amarr Imperial Succession Committee of allowing pilots of other races than Amarr to assist the "pure blooded" Amarrian champions in their upcoming combat duels.
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=174&tid=4&_ga=1.7881650.1867853888.1395525975
Uriam Kador, head of the Kador family, has intensified the ongoing debate surrounding Catiz Tash-Murkon's acquisition of the Tal-Romon Cathedral on Eclipticum by questioning the heir status of the Tash-Murkon family. The Tash-Murkons replaced the Khanid family when the latter broke from the Empire following Heideran's election as emperor. The nomination came as a surprise to most, not the least because the Tash-Murkons were Udorians, and thus not of pure Amarrian ancestry.
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=369&tid=4&_ga=1.62139564.1867853888.1395525975
"We should look to true Amarrians, the chosen people of God, barren of the impurities of their spacebound kin."
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1404&tid=4&_ga=1.73033619.1867853888.1395525975
"House Sarum feels that the past open doors policy of ascension was patently ridiculous. We cannot and should not allow anyone but true Amarrians to decide the future of our glorious empire. It's no wonder that the last two chosen Emperors were such weaklings?"
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1409&tid=4&_ga=1.73033619.1867853888.1395525975
"While we acknowledge and respect the views of the other Royal Houses, [the Tash-Murkon] Royal House is strongly against the racial implications of allowing only True Amarr to decide the next championship.
The Empire was forged in our collective blood. We worship the one and only Lord God. It is by all our strengths that the Empire was made great, and it will be by all our strengths that it shall continue."
With the only Royal House yet to make its views known on the subject the Amarr News Service managed to arrange a short sitting with Yonis Ardishapur himself shortly after a meeting with Chamberlain Karsoth.
"The Lord God saw fit to create only one race of his Chosen. We are that race. While the lesser races follow God's word faithfully and loyally, as well they should, and while they have their place within the Empire, it is not for them to rise above their station. Decisions of this importance should be left to God's true Chosen, and none other."
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1425&tid=4&_ga=1.229778204.1867853888.1395525975
The majority of the criticism comes from Tanar's outspoken views on the purity of Amarrian heritage and the inferiority of those of non-pure Amarrian blood.
Tanar has been the center of criticism before, most recently three years ago when he gave a lecture entitled "Scriptural Evidence Supporting the Continuing Servitude of Udorians, Ealurians, Khanid, Ni-Kunni, and Minmatar." The lecture advocated a stripping of title and privilege from all citizens of the Empire who were not of pure True Amarrian ancestry, including reducing the royal Tash-Murkon Family to the status of commoners. The backlash generated by Udorian, Khanid, and liberal Amarrian Holders, in addition to threats of funding withdrawal from numerous wealthy non-True Amarrian merchants, resulted in Tanar receiving a year's suspension with pay from the Institute.
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2582&tid=2&_ga=1.236668801.1867853888.1395525975
"My word lies within all,[/spoiler]
All it requires is the breath of faith,
To ignite the fire,
So the lost can find their way,
So the fallen can rise,
To take their place as my chosen,
For you are all my creation,
And are all equal in my kingdom."
-The Apocryphon
"These texts are considered heretical by the Amarr clergy and anyone found preaching or distributing them is persecuted relentlessly."
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Apocryphon
Super Special State Sentai Princess Brigade, ho!
(http://gooby.naurunappula.com/org/36/17/36174171bfd01d7e/0/1185552.gif)
But back to the topic. What do people think that the State has the least population, but the second biggest navy (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3222074#post3222074)?
They always had the most advanced, which did make sense and it was also their trump card why people didn't fuck with them... But now second largest too with the least amount of people? I am not gonna even bother taking EVE fiction revamps seriously anymore :lol::D
Super Special State Sentai Princess Brigade, ho!
(http://gooby.naurunappula.com/org/36/17/36174171bfd01d7e/0/1185552.gif)
... the state don't have the second largest navy. They have the smallest, but the most technologically advanced and with a higher ratio of battleships.
You're misreading Falcon's post. That list was about general capability, not size. The State has the second strongest navy, not the second largest.
Maybe. And the ships have a higher crew ratio then the gallente. Meaning, that it is most likely the case of capital intensive plus labor intensive. So no substitution (which I have no problem with).
Super Special State Sentai Princess Brigade, ho!
(http://gooby.naurunappula.com/org/36/17/36174171bfd01d7e/0/1185552.gif)
Only true in haiku.But back to the topic. What do people think that the State has the least population, but the second biggest navy (http://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3222074#post3222074)?
Probably because it's always been portrayed as a highly militarized society that believes everyone non-Caldari presents a potential existential threat to the continued survival of the State? That kind of thinking is probably why KK, Lai Dai, and Wiyrkomi are all heavily involved in domestic military industries.
QuoteWhile the champion himself must be of pure Amarrian descent, his wingmen are said to be allowed to be of any race and bloodline.
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=171&tid=4&_ga=1.39545891.1867853888.1395525975
The arrest is said to come after the journalist interrupted a scripted press event with questions regarding a debated decision by the Amarr Imperial Succession Committee of allowing pilots of other races than Amarr to assist the "pure blooded" Amarrian champions in their upcoming combat duels.
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=174&tid=4&_ga=1.7881650.1867853888.1395525975
Uriam Kador, head of the Kador family, has intensified the ongoing debate surrounding Catiz Tash-Murkon's acquisition of the Tal-Romon Cathedral on Eclipticum by questioning the heir status of the Tash-Murkon family. The Tash-Murkons replaced the Khanid family when the latter broke from the Empire following Heideran's election as emperor. The nomination came as a surprise to most, not the least because the Tash-Murkons were Udorians, and thus not of pure Amarrian ancestry.
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=369&tid=4&_ga=1.62139564.1867853888.1395525975
"We should look to true Amarrians, the chosen people of God, barren of the impurities of their spacebound kin."
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1404&tid=4&_ga=1.73033619.1867853888.1395525975
"House Sarum feels that the past open doors policy of ascension was patently ridiculous. We cannot and should not allow anyone but true Amarrians to decide the future of our glorious empire. It's no wonder that the last two chosen Emperors were such weaklings?"
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1409&tid=4&_ga=1.73033619.1867853888.1395525975
"While we acknowledge and respect the views of the other Royal Houses, [the Tash-Murkon] Royal House is strongly against the racial implications of allowing only True Amarr to decide the next championship.
The Empire was forged in our collective blood. We worship the one and only Lord God. It is by all our strengths that the Empire was made great, and it will be by all our strengths that it shall continue."
With the only Royal House yet to make its views known on the subject the Amarr News Service managed to arrange a short sitting with Yonis Ardishapur himself shortly after a meeting with Chamberlain Karsoth.
"The Lord God saw fit to create only one race of his Chosen. We are that race. While the lesser races follow God's word faithfully and loyally, as well they should, and while they have their place within the Empire, it is not for them to rise above their station. Decisions of this importance should be left to God's true Chosen, and none other."
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=1425&tid=4&_ga=1.229778204.1867853888.1395525975
The majority of the criticism comes from Tanar's outspoken views on the purity of Amarrian heritage and the inferiority of those of non-pure Amarrian blood.
Tanar has been the center of criticism before, most recently three years ago when he gave a lecture entitled "Scriptural Evidence Supporting the Continuing Servitude of Udorians, Ealurians, Khanid, Ni-Kunni, and Minmatar." The lecture advocated a stripping of title and privilege from all citizens of the Empire who were not of pure True Amarrian ancestry, including reducing the royal Tash-Murkon Family to the status of commoners. The backlash generated by Udorian, Khanid, and liberal Amarrian Holders, in addition to threats of funding withdrawal from numerous wealthy non-True Amarrian merchants, resulted in Tanar receiving a year's suspension with pay from the Institute.
http://communityclassic.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2582&tid=2&_ga=1.236668801.1867853888.1395525975
"My word lies within all,
All it requires is the breath of faith,
To ignite the fire,
So the lost can find their way,
So the fallen can rise,
To take their place as my chosen,
For you are all my creation,
And are all equal in my kingdom."
-The Apocryphon
"These texts are considered heretical by the Amarr clergy and anyone found preaching or distributing them is persecuted relentlessly."
https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Apocryphon
What splits Amarr from Sabik is that with the Amarr only the True Amarr are Chosen (with the exception of the big controversy to claim that Khameiras are also Chosen), while in the Sabik faith anyone can theoretically become Chosen ("Savant").
That anyone can become Chosen by faith in God is the one piece of Sabik Scripture we have, and this is a Scripture that is deemed heretical by orthodox Amarrian faith. Sure, there's no orthodox Scripture we have that outright says 'only the True Amarr are Chosen', so there is a bit of leeway on player interpretation, but when there is a Scripture that says "anyone can become Chosen by being faithful" and that this Scripture is deemed heretical, that says quite a lot to me.
Source doesn't stop characters from having the other interpretation ICly and arguing for that view, because at least from the Scriptures we have available it is possible to argue for that interpretation ICly. All that Source does is just reinforces canon that has already been there that the traditional belief is that only the True Amarr are God's Chosen, thus confirming that other interpretations are an atypical belief (which can be considered either simply liberal or heretical depending on character viewpoints).
Source Book:
True Amarr are held aloft by the rest of the Amarr society, viewed as secret paragons of piety. Other bloodlines are forever tainted by the sin of their ancestors, no matter how pious, no matter how fervent and faithful, they will never match the unstained purity of the True Amarr.
[...]
Regardless, everyone born in the empire has one thing in common; a constant reinforcement of religion, the natural order of True Amarr on top.
There was by the PF a variety of different approaches possible. At least in the Tash-Murkon domains racism seems to be shunned quite blatantly.
Again, the conservatives are more likely to be ethnocentric - no surprise there. Right above, however, the Tash-Murkons say that "The Empire was forged in our collective blood. We worship the one and only Lord God. It is by all our strengths that the Empire was made great, and it will be by all our strengths that it shall continue." Ethnocentrism is clearly not a universally-applied, totally homogenous rule in the faith; if it were, the Murkons' words would be heresy.
And here it's even outright said - pure ethnocentrism/racism exists among the more conservative factions, but is highly controversial and not at all universally accepted in the Empire. If True Amarr being forever the only Chosen was codified in the scriptures, the controversy in the quote would not be occurring.
True Amarr lead because they were first chosen, but others can achieve glory and recognition by opting to aid the faithful as well. This is little different from the situations of the Eudorians, Khanid, and Ni-Kunni (all of which are not strictly speaking True Amarr, but are at current varying distances along the path to becoming Chosen).
Also, there is still Scripture which says that everyone can be chosen by God:
"All things were created by the Divine, and so the glory of our faith is inherent to us all;
When thine heart shines with the Light, thou shalt know no hardship;
When thine actions are in Light's name, thou art immortal."
- The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:1
Actually, the Sabik believe that savants/chosen are born destined for such:
"...the Sani Sabik faith embraced two central dogmas. The first was that certain people were born destined for greatness, with all others existing solely to serve and breed these savants. The second was that immortality was attainable by these savants." - Evelopedia
The issue with 'joining' is that the Sabik were willing to accept anyone who simply followed their ways as inherently Savant; this stands in stark contrast to the traditional Amarr view of Chosen-ness being gained through extended service and faith to the (orthodox) God.
It is entirely possible for a character to argue for equal rights in the hierarchy of the Empire while also believing that only True Amarr are Chosen by God.
Source Book:
True Amarr are held aloft by the rest of the Amarr society, viewed as secret paragons of piety. Other bloodlines are forever tainted by the sin of their ancestors, no matter how pious, no matter how fervent and faithful, they will never match the unstained purity of the True Amarr.
[...]
Regardless, everyone born in the empire has one thing in common; a constant reinforcement of religion, the natural order of True Amarr on top.
Well we all roleplay capsuleers in the end that enjoy the particular freedoms of being particularly divorced from the conformity pressures of any society; their cultural norms; legal and moral consequences; or indeed pretty much any consequences.Define "standards and beliefs". So that we dont just talk in the abstract. As well as could you give an example for "their desires to placate their own personal views and bias".... You can even take me as example, I dont mind. ;)
So I guess in the end if people prefer to ignore aspects of PF to make it more suitable for themselves and their characters to behave in the ways they wish then it doesn't really matter, insofar as the only people doing it right are the trillions of citizens living in New Eden and not the comparative handful of capsuleers who lead very different sorts of lives.
Although sometimes I do chuckle at the detection of those who seem to confuse "RP" with "PR" and argue vehemently, and complain bitterly, at any aspect of PF lore that contradicts their desires to placate their own personal views and bias on, "How things should be" so that it meshes with their own standards and beliefs.
Did they give a less dumb explanation for how stargates and warp drives work?
Although sometimes I do chuckle at the detection of those who seem to confuse "RP" with "PR" and argue vehemently, and complain bitterly, at any aspect of PF lore that contradicts their desires to placate their own personal views and bias on, "How things should be" so that it meshes with their own standards and beliefs.
Did they give a less dumb explanation for how stargates and warp drives work?
Re: Publius
While there may at times be something lost in translation with your thoughts, I do tend to think they come from an analysis from some sort of objective viewpoint and the construction of thoughts and theory that tries to be internally consistent.
What I'm talking about is say, about 2-3 years ago I put forward the idea that the Caldari might be a homophobic society or at the very least disagree with homosexuality on these forums given some hints from mission texts and other PF. At the time a lot of people tried to argue, there's no way the Caldari could be homophobic, for no other reason that I could detect than a desire to defend their public space lesbianism and that it might portray the Caldari as, "Bad" by modern standards.
Well it turns out the Caldari do in fact disagree with homosexuality, and I was correct, because I prefer to use the PF to reach a conclusion instead of reaching a conclusion first and trying to make the PF fit it.
I mean the same thing I can see with the Amarr. Whenever I see people trying to twist the PF to ameliorate the consequences of slavery and conquest inherent in the Amarr faith I see it as nothing more than people trying to make it palatable to a modern audience in some kind of attempt at meta-PR. Because once slavery, conquest, and the racial intolerence/prejudice is removed from the Amarr you might as well be roleplaying a character that prescribes to a Christian ethic that just so happens to fly spaceships.
Nothing wrong with that really, since we're all playing capsuleers who can think and do what they want, but at least call a spade a spade with what you're trying to do.
about 2-3 years ago I put forward the idea that the Caldari might be a homophobic society or at the very least disagree with homosexuality on these forums given some hints from mission texts and other PF. At the time a lot of people tried to argue, there's no way the Caldari could be homophobic, for no other reason that I could detect than a desire to defend their public space lesbianism and that it might portray the Caldari as, "Bad" by modern standards.
Well it turns out the Caldari do in fact disagree with homosexuality, and I was correct, because I prefer to use the PF to reach a conclusion instead of reaching a conclusion first and trying to make the PF fit it.
Did they give a less dumb explanation for how stargates and warp drives work?
Ehm I just write it down (I hope you dont mind typos)... as I will make it fast.O7
"It is undoubted that a race capable of interstellar travel roamed New Eden thousands of years ago. A number of ancient star gates and acceleration gates have been discovered in various systems across the cluster, all of which have a peculiar factor in common carbon dating*** shows that these gates were all constructed within a time frame of approximately 150 years. It is believed that these individuals were those who initially ventured forth through the EVE Gate to colonize the cluster.
The system of New Eden remains an enigma; as does that which lies on the opposite side of the EVE Gate. Scientists across the cluster speculate on the origins of mankind and wonder where our knowledge of star gate construction and faster-than-light travel originated. A star gate is an immensely complex mesh of astrophysics, science, and mathematics that to most people seems an impenetrable wall of equations and jargon.
In layman´s terms, a star gate generates an artificial wormhole, through which a vessel passes to its destination. These gates are constructed to exploit areas of natural gravitational resonance, or harmony, either on the edges of solar system or in the areas where a sufficiently large or dense celestial body creates a relative equilibrium between itself and the star it orbits.****
While this resonance is not required to be absolute (such as, for example, when two celestrial bodies cancel each other´s gravitational effect completely-the ideal conditions for a star gate), gravitational distortion most remain below an acceptable threshold for star gate´s subsystems to be able to function normally. Once that condition is satisfied, a stable link can be created between the source and the destination nodes. These nodes are the gates themselves. They operate in pairs, their interstellar positioning arrays and mainframes linked directly via the fluid router system for instantaneous point-to-point communication.
When a vessel requests jump clearance, the source node transmits a basic carrier signal that includes data on the class of the vessel, its mass, its current status, and its CISC (CONCORD Identification Serial Code) to the destination nodes, which the confirms receipt of the data. This entire process is automated, consisting of direct communication between the mainframes of the paired star gate.
The gates then confirm alignment to each other before activating magnetic fields. Once this process is confirmed by both the source and the destination nodes, they simultaneously fire a focused beam of gravitons towards each other, folding space-time consistent with Weyl tensor dynamics, which creates a temporal singularity-or more simply, a tear in space-time-at both the source and the destination nodes. The two nodes monitor these singularities at intervals of one picosecond, ensuring they are stable before the source gate begins to stream negatively charged gravitons toward the destination, which in turn acts as a receiver, positively charged."
This is the first third. I write the rest when I have more time... :(
_______
***carbon dating doesnt work that way.... We would need to know the 14C is/was constant as it is on earth atmosphere the case.. to make rückschlüsse/conclusion back. Even more that the organic stuff on, or in the gates would be most likely taken form other/various lactation (planets with differnent 14C numbers)... meaning he would just measure a knowing disintegrations from/towards a earth level. As we cant see how much/on what level the organic thing has absorbed as it lived (aka is former place. Like which planet). I know what I wrote sounds weird... I can make an example if needed....
I mean the same thing I can see with the Amarr. Whenever I see people trying to twist the PF to ameliorate the consequences of slavery and conquest inherent in the Amarr faith I see it as nothing more than people trying to make it palatable to a modern audience in some kind of attempt at meta-PR. Because once slavery, conquest, and the racial intolerence/prejudice is removed from the Amarr you might as well be roleplaying a character that prescribes to a Christian ethic that just so happens to fly spaceships.
So, what about Angel Cartel? Is it still lead by magical space witch hermit on a mystery asteroid?
I tried asking this from the two main authors in a public venue, but neither chose to answer me.
So, what about Angel Cartel? Is it still lead by magical space witch hermit on a mystery asteroid?
I tried asking this from the two main authors in a public venue, but neither chose to answer me.
The Angel section still says that the true leadership is still unknown, etc. They didn't change that.
I have to agree with the opinion that there seems to be a significant bleeding effect, with IC and OOC lines blurring and people confusing what they want their faction to be with what it actually is, and was.
[/quote
Admitted.
I mean the same thing I can see with the Amarr. Whenever I see people trying to twist the PF to ameliorate the consequences of slavery and conquest inherent in the Amarr faith I see it as nothing more than people trying to make it palatable to a modern audience in some kind of attempt at meta-PR. Because once slavery, conquest, and the racial intolerence/prejudice is removed from the Amarr you might as well be roleplaying a character that prescribes to a Christian ethic that just so happens to fly spaceships.
Those descended from the original inhabitants of Amarr Island (called True Amarr) are held aloft by the rest of Amarr society, viewed as sacred paragons of piety. Other bloodlines are forever tainted by the sins of their ancestors; no matter how pious, no matter how fervent and faithful, they shall never match the unstained purity of the True Amarr soul.
QuoteThose descended from the original inhabitants of Amarr Island (called True Amarr) are held aloft by the rest of Amarr society, viewed as sacred paragons of piety. Other bloodlines are forever tainted by the sins of their ancestors; no matter how pious, no matter how fervent and faithful, they shall never match the unstained purity of the True Amarr soul.
:|
The letters of Bishop Dalamaid have been the subject of volumes of intellectual discourse. The primary contention of the letters, that true saintly martyrdom is an impossibility for anyone even aware of the concept of sainthood, has gone through various levels of favor over the generations.
If real history books get it wrong and contradict each other ?
If real history books get it wrong and contradict each other ?
Happens all the time Lyn. History is shaded by the preconceptions and biases of the authors, as well as access or lack of access to all pertinent information. I've said before that Luna is viewing the Source Amarr section as being written by an ivory tower gallente academic.
American history has quite a few examples of competing interpretations/views.
If real history books get it wrong and contradict each other ?
The question is: what do you like about Source? The description of the State and the Federation seem to be differntiated and not clash with prior PF from what I hear and saw (though I'm no expert there). So, I can imagine that those parts are satisfying.
The question is: what do you like about Source? The description of the State and the Federation seem to be differntiated and not clash with prior PF from what I hear and saw (though I'm no expert there). So, I can imagine that those parts are satisfying.
Since I'm sort of half-considering playing the game again for a while, I should ask, does the book say anything about Achura?
Lumped together with everyone else under the Caldari section. They do not really go much into the details of the bloodlines unfortunately.
Gallente and Caldari are the best parts of Source simply because they present both shades of their societies.
Amarr and Minmatar segments are, however, very weak. Amarr's a bit too one-sided, all about the power struggles, politicking and intrigue (and slavery. So much slavery) and nothing about their charitable sides and how the Amarr are just as likely to move into a system en-masse to drop much needed aid packages as they are to invade and enslave the populace.
Minmatar is even worse. There's too little about life in the Republic and too much about Slavery. Slaves, oh so many slaves. It's like the only defining feature of the Minmatar are their identity crisis and Slavery. Hardly anything about their culture. At least the Amarr has got sections dedicated to Amarrian culture.
I don't think that's a view that exists. The Scriptures have always been in flux, and they are constantly being reinterpreted. They are so voluminous that no-one can ever have encyclopedic knowledge of them, and thus no-one can obey them in their entirety. Every new Emperor, every new High Deacon, and every new scientific discovery will change the orthodox intepretation.QuoteThe letters of Bishop Dalamaid have been the subject of volumes of intellectual discourse. The primary contention of the letters, that true saintly martyrdom is an impossibility for anyone even aware of the concept of sainthood, has gone through various levels of favor over the generations.
How does that fit with a literalist, unchanging interpretation of the Scriptures ?
By definition Amarr can't be racially intolerant if they follow the Reclaiming principles. Supremacists, yeah, though.
If real history books get it wrong and contradict each other ?
Yes, that is exactly to what I was referring to. They get it wrong and contradict too, so why can't a fictional history book?
All that being said, I don't think it's a problem. I'm sure somebody out there can make a mountain out of a molehill because I ignore certain PF or interpret it for my own ends. Oh well. It's just a game.
I don't think that's a view that exists. The Scriptures have always been in flux, and they are constantly being reinterpreted. They are so voluminous that no-one can ever have encyclopedic knowledge of them, and thus no-one can obey them in their entirety. Every new Emperor, every new High Deacon, and every new scientific discovery will change the orthodox intepretation.QuoteThe letters of Bishop Dalamaid have been the subject of volumes of intellectual discourse. The primary contention of the letters, that true saintly martyrdom is an impossibility for anyone even aware of the concept of sainthood, has gone through various levels of favor over the generations.
How does that fit with a literalist, unchanging interpretation of the Scriptures ?
Though I largely support Source, on that part I agree that it's a bit iffy but I'm not sure if we want to read into it too literally.That one is great! :D
:(
I'll try sending a PM then. Maybe I'll get better luck.