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[Mizhara]

There are some numbers that might prove interesting to those comparing our "mild" system to that of 'murricah. Over here, we only have 71 prisoners per 100k citizens, compared to 751 prisoners per 100k citizens in the US. Almost 60% of 'murrican convicts return to jail within two years. Over here, that number is less than 20%. I'm sure there's all kinds of reasons for this, but I'll stick with advocating rehabilitation and low 'punishment' numbers over "JAIL ALL THE PEOPLE! FOR LIFE!".

[orange]

Comparing Apples to Citrus (not just oranges, but also lemons, limes, etc)

[Desiderya]

You can't mess with statistics!
Well, actually you can, but statistics mess with you if you do it.

But honestly,
why are statistics like these not comparable?
You obviously have multiple factors that lead to that number and crime rate in general is just one aspect of it. But most of those reasons boil down to 'How quickly do you put people into jails and how do you treat them there.", especially in regard to minor crimes.

[orange]

Because each country (and state) is very different from each other in a number of ways.  It greatly simplifies the comparison when you say 75/100k vs 751/100k and that the only difference between those two is whether or not the justice system is seen as punishment or rehabilitation.

There are so many things that play into why those numbers are different that it is almost staggering:   education, health care, cost of living, cultural/ethnic diversity, tax system, etc.

Norway has fewer people living in it than the county, I live in.  In the county, we have overcrowded single prisons with more prisoners than the entire Norwegian prison population.

Add to this the struggles of getting rehabilitation to stick, when upon leaving prison a prisoner is likely to be picked up by his/her fellow criminals.  Rehabilitation in prison fails when they leave prison and just return to their old "job."  So, in order to get rehabilitation to stick, I need to do more than just implement it as the framework for my already overcrowded prisons (which have internal gangs that make rehabilitation challenging as well).

But, I get it.  Norway is awesome and is able to have a prison system that rehabilitates criminals to be productive members of their society.   The counties and states that make up the United States have plenty of challenges before them and how to reduce our criminal population is just one of them.

[Vikarion]

Because each country (and state) is very different from each other in a number of ways.  It greatly simplifies the comparison when you say 75/100k vs 751/100k and that the only difference between those two is whether or not the justice system is seen as punishment or rehabilitation.

There are so many things that play into why those numbers are different that it is almost staggering:   education, health care, cost of living, cultural/ethnic diversity, tax system, etc.

Norway has fewer people living in it than the county, I live in.  In the county, we have overcrowded single prisons with more prisoners than the entire Norwegian prison population.

Add to this the struggles of getting rehabilitation to stick, when upon leaving prison a prisoner is likely to be picked up by his/her fellow criminals.  Rehabilitation in prison fails when they leave prison and just return to their old "job."  So, in order to get rehabilitation to stick, I need to do more than just implement it as the framework for my already overcrowded prisons (which have internal gangs that make rehabilitation challenging as well).

But, I get it.  Norway is awesome and is able to have a prison system that rehabilitates criminals to be productive members of their society.   The counties and states that make up the United States have plenty of challenges before them and how to reduce our criminal population is just one of them.

We'd probably also be better off if we weren't so harsh in regards to crimes that are relatively victim-less, like smoking weed. I really can't understand why so many politicians over here tend to be just insane about making sure every last recreational drug user spends years in prison.

[Desiderya]

Don't be so defensive, it was a legitimate question, especially since statistics like inmates per citizen are much more useful than absolute values. As a country with lower population density it is expected to have a lower rate of crime, but there's an enormous difference that should be apparent even after acknowledging these structural differences.

2006 numbers for US-prisons show that a bit less than half of all inmates are there for violent felonies, property crime or drug-related crimes. Solving everything with prison sentences is apparently not going to work, since you'll put many who are very likely not career criminals into the custody of those. This is, of course, a problem for rehabilitation.
In my opinion that is the most striking problem as well, because these prisons look like they're breeding criminals, and not correcting them.

[Lyn Farel]

We'd probably also be better off if we weren't so harsh in regards to crimes that are relatively victim-less, like smoking weed. I really can't understand why so many politicians over here tend to be just insane about making sure every last recreational drug user spends years in prison.

I am not sure smoking weed and that kind of things is that unimportant. In itself, sure it is, but we actually have here a new "debate" about weed since a moron killed a child in his car because he smoked weed just before. Its a complicated matter imo. Much like alcohol.

[Caellach Marellus]

DUI is a completely different matter that does warrant punishment.

Being stoned in your own home however doesn't justify jailtime 

[Vikarion]

We'd probably also be better off if we weren't so harsh in regards to crimes that are relatively victim-less, like smoking weed. I really can't understand why so many politicians over here tend to be just insane about making sure every last recreational drug user spends years in prison.

I am not sure smoking weed and that kind of things is that unimportant. In itself, sure it is, but we actually have here a new "debate" about weed since a moron killed a child in his car because he smoked weed just before. Its a complicated matter imo. Much like alcohol.

It's certainly a bad idea to operate any kind of machinery while under the influence of a substance. But it's also extremely dangerous to operate such while sleepy. And yet, we don't outlaw sleep or consider it a bad thing. Perhaps this is a bad analogy, but it seems to me that a good deal more harm is done by making softer drugs like ecstasy and weed illegal than would be by allowing them to be regulated and sold.

Perhaps this is an artifact of my other viewpoints. I consider justice to be retributive - to me, rehabilitation and justice don't have much to do with each other (although my moderated post could have expressed that better, and reminds me not to post after midnight, heh). Anyway, a retributive viewpoint leads me to be very skeptical of punishing people for harming no one. If, in the quintessential example, someone decides to get high on the weekend, inside his own house, with a drug that does not induce violent behavior, why in the name of all that is good and holy do we believe that we have the right to take him away in handcuffs? What, precisely, has he done to anyone else to deserve such treatment?

[Desiderya]

But I bet you'll get a more severe sentence if you are responsible for a car crash and drove while being overly tired.
Also that's why tachographs must be used in lorries and buses, at least in most of the EU.

But for all means, driving under the influence and consuming in your own home is an entirely different thing. But I believe that the so called soft drugs are outlawed for other reasons as well - if those are valid or not valid is a rather hot topic. Besides: This.

[Lyn Farel]

We'd probably also be better off if we weren't so harsh in regards to crimes that are relatively victim-less, like smoking weed. I really can't understand why so many politicians over here tend to be just insane about making sure every last recreational drug user spends years in prison.

I am not sure smoking weed and that kind of things is that unimportant. In itself, sure it is, but we actually have here a new "debate" about weed since a moron killed a child in his car because he smoked weed just before. Its a complicated matter imo. Much like alcohol.

It's certainly a bad idea to operate any kind of machinery while under the influence of a substance. But it's also extremely dangerous to operate such while sleepy. And yet, we don't outlaw sleep or consider it a bad thing. Perhaps this is a bad analogy, but it seems to me that a good deal more harm is done by making softer drugs like ecstasy and weed illegal than would be by allowing them to be regulated and sold.

Perhaps this is an artifact of my other viewpoints. I consider justice to be retributive - to me, rehabilitation and justice don't have much to do with each other (although my moderated post could have expressed that better, and reminds me not to post after midnight, heh). Anyway, a retributive viewpoint leads me to be very skeptical of punishing people for harming no one. If, in the quintessential example, someone decides to get high on the weekend, inside his own house, with a drug that does not induce violent behavior, why in the name of all that is good and holy do we believe that we have the right to take him away in handcuffs? What, precisely, has he done to anyone else to deserve such treatment?

I never stated the contrary. You said that smoking weed is victim-less, I merely pointed out it is not always the case, as you seem to acknowledge here.

I have always had pretty close to no opinion at all on the legalization of soft drugs such as this one. I consider that if we are to allow alcohol, then weed is no more different to my eyes. Either both are to be put illegal, either they are to be legalized. But I also admit that I am no expert on such things and probably have missed a lot of relevant points that I did not even thought about.

[Silver Night]

[mod]Off-topic. Please feel free to create a separate thread if you want to discuss Drug legalization/comparative justice systems/etc., but keep in mind this part of the OOG forum description:

Want to talk about the newest Modern Warfare game? Maybe you have a humorous link to share? A comment about current events?This is the place for it. Please tread carefully when it comes to RL religion, politics, and other controversial issues. There are lots of forums for debating that kind of thing, this isn't one of them.

It isn't something we always enforce strictly, but in general doing things that look like flame-baiting based on nationality and the like are frowned on.[/mod]