Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Stitcher on 01 May 2013, 13:03
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As discussed in OOC today, I've had the idea of starting up an RP alliance whose focus you may guess from the title of this thread.
Its principle objectives would be:
1) Promoting RP
2) Improving the IC relations between the Caldari State and the Minmatar Republic
3) Potentially negotiating a ceasefire between those two factions in the warzones
4) Researching a line of ships analogous to the pirate faction ships that uses Caldari and Minmatar ship skills and combines the best features of each race, with a view to maybe getting CCP to introduce the fruits of our labours as real ships in game (probably with the BPOs being sold by NPCs)
5) exploiting the lowsec space between the State and the Republic for profit.
Even if some of these objectives prove impossible, I think the effort itself could be a fun project, and I'd be interested in hearing who would consider joining, and maybe bringing their corps with them. As much as I want this to happen, we're going to need more than just one bearded Civire to get the ball rolling.
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As I said in the OOC channel, I'm 100% on board with this. I was actually complaining to Katarina last night about the lack of Cal/Min hybrid skill ships lol
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I'm primarily interested in an exploration of the depth that exists between the two cultures. I feel both cultures are too inherently xenophobic to have close relations, but might find it useful to employ one another to keep the imperialist neighbors in check.
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(http://i.imgur.com/2lfJnrh.jpg)
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I have been thinking about this aswell and will have some better ideas soon, so far I have only really been thinking of the cosmetic delightfulness of such an alliance. I spent today doing rough sketches of hybrid merlin/rifters which I might upload if people want to see the abominations I came up with. Though I might just hang onto them for now.
But again it needs more than one bearded (however excellent the beard is) civire and a bald slightly psychotic looking female civire.
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I have been thinking about this aswell and will have some better ideas soon, so far I have only really been thinking of the cosmetic delightfulness of such an alliance. I spent today doing rough sketches of hybrid merlin/rifters which I might upload if people want to see the abominations I came up with. Though I might just hang onto them for now.
But again it needs more than one bearded (however excellent the beard is) civire and a bald slightly psychotic looking female civire.
I would love to see them, for one. And it already has my moderately psychotic Vherokior male :)
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You've got my attention.
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If it means more Pirate ships then I am all for this as well, though as Amarr I would have to watch at the sidelines unless I actually make a Caldari alt (Ughh more money) It could also be interesting to see where Amarr RP takes this, a Caldari/Minmater Alliance may make us lot begin to feel closed in....and when your pinned to a wall there is only one direction left to go :twisted:
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Katarina's been arguing in favor of a Caldari/Minmatar alliance for a while now, so I'm very in favor of this as well, though I may have to make an alt to actually be in it directly.
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For anyone wanting to discuss this in game without cluttering the OOC thread, I've made a channel titled "The Calmatar Initiative."
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Given the Republic/Federation tension these days, it could be a good move. I know currently my character has a higher opinion of some Caldari than his allies.
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Not something I'm likely to pursue on Kala (I'm working on making her more xenophobic :yar:), however my Dustie may be interested.
Caldari pay the best, Minmatar are the most fun :)
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okay, so there's interest, good.
The idea at this point is to aim high, but not forget the small steps. If we're going to make a genuine in-game alliance out of this, we need member corps, and preferably plenty of people.
We also need a viable plan for making money, a patch of ground to lay claim to, some capital to get the ball rolling and so on. Let's get this thing planned out properly before we start drawing up a logo and everything.
I'm enthusiastic and optimistic to see where we can take this, but we have to be realistic: we need to drum up enough members, ships and ISK first. We need solid "if this goes ahead, I'm in" not "hey, this could be cool" please.
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Given the Republic/Federation tension these days, it could be a good move. I know currently my character has a higher opinion of some Caldari than his allies.
Yeah, nothing like being told you won't get your way after rattling the sabers to make your consider jumping in bed with an enemy and spitting in the face of an old friend, eh? :yar:
Good luck with this initiative folks, it's been tried before IIRC but nothing much has happened. It would be very interesting to see where this might go ;)
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okay, so there's interest, good.
The idea at this point is to aim high, but not forget the small steps. If we're going to make a genuine in-game alliance out of this, we need member corps, and preferably plenty of people.
We also need a viable plan for making money, a patch of ground to lay claim to, some capital to get the ball rolling and so on. Let's get this thing planned out properly before we start drawing up a logo and everything.
I'm enthusiastic and optimistic to see where we can take this, but we have to be realistic: we need to drum up enough members, ships and ISK first. We need solid "if this goes ahead, I'm in" not "hey, this could be cool" please.
For me its an absolute I'm in and i am up for helping in what ever way I can. This is giving me that direction i have needed for a while.
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Given the Republic/Federation tension these days, it could be a good move. I know currently my character has a higher opinion of some Caldari than his allies.
Yeah, nothing like being told you won't get your way after rattling the sabers to make your consider jumping in bed with an enemy and spitting in the face of an old friend, eh? :yar:
I think that's a bit harsh. Maybe Tabor the character has a higher opinion of some Caldari because, you know, some Caldari are actually worth it?
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This needs to happen :D
I've created a channel some time ago, because I liked the name : Heiian and the Art of Spaceship Maintenance. I think it fits the purpose, so the thing is now open. Here's the MOTD :
Heiian and the Art of Spaceship Maintenance is a strange novel, heavily autobiographical. The author/narrator relates his journeys and day-to-day work on board of a Fenrir, adding considerations about Heiian its relation to matari engineering philosophy. And, at least for the time of the reading, it makes sense.
The purpose of this channel is simple : a place for Caldari and Minmatar capsuleers to exhange, talk, create & strengthen ties, etc.
The rule of this channel is simpler : don't be a dick.
((This channel is in-character, and a virtual venue. Act accordingly))
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It says something about the way EVE has structured its inter-factional conflict that the idea of good Minmatar/Caldari relations pops up frequently but an Amarr/Gallente alliance is something you won't get any support for.
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Given the Republic/Federation tension these days, it could be a good move. I know currently my character has a higher opinion of some Caldari than his allies.
Yeah, nothing like being told you won't get your way after rattling the sabers to make your consider jumping in bed with an enemy and spitting in the face of an old friend, eh? :yar:
I'll save that discussion for IC where it belongs.
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Given the Republic/Federation tension these days, it could be a good move. I know currently my character has a higher opinion of some Caldari than his allies.
Yeah, nothing like being told you won't get your way after rattling the sabers to make your consider jumping in bed with an enemy and spitting in the face of an old friend, eh? :yar:
I think that's a bit harsh. Maybe Tabor the character has a higher opinion of some Caldari because, you know, some Caldari are actually worth it?
Maybe so, but the implication is leaving a nasty feel to me. Still, it's up to you folks what you do and I'd like to see this happen OOC, at least.
It says something about the way EVE has structured its inter-factional conflict that the idea of good Minmatar/Caldari relations pops up frequently but an Amarr/Gallente alliance is something you won't get any support for.
The two factions are anathema to each other. It would never happen, so thus it never get's any major support. If CCP change the political landscape around a Caldari/Minmatar alliance with the Empire and Federation alone on either side is the most likely change, that or dissolve the alliances and leave it at that.
I know a great deal of Caldari RP'ers have wanted such an alliance for a long time and plenty of Minmatar players seem keen on it as well. I-RED's been a major pusher of this kind of relationship for a while, IIRC.
Given the Republic/Federation tension these days, it could be a good move. I know currently my character has a higher opinion of some Caldari than his allies.
Yeah, nothing like being told you won't get your way after rattling the sabers to make your consider jumping in bed with an enemy and spitting in the face of an old friend, eh? :yar:
I'll save that discussion for IC where it belongs.
Indeed. If it pops up IC I might get involved.
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It says something about the way EVE has structured its inter-factional conflict that the idea of good Minmatar/Caldari relations pops up frequently but an Amarr/Gallente alliance is something you won't get any support for.
Why not ? Be it Caldari/Minmatar or Gallente/Amarr, they both share a lot of similarities as well as opposites.
But yeah, considering the probable player answer, that seems unlikely, which is a shame. I think that the main issue comes from TEA, that erased completely Heideran/Aidonis legacy.
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It says something about the way EVE has structured its inter-factional conflict that the idea of good Minmatar/Caldari relations pops up frequently but an Amarr/Gallente alliance is something you won't get any support for.
Considerably less support, but there are some feelers here and there. Not nearly enough to base an alliance on, though. In any case it's something I'd quite like to see more of.
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I-RED's been a major pusher of this kind of relationship for a while, IIRC.
We've since stopped that.
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As much as I love the Minnies both IC and OOC the situation in the warzone where we got flooded by Minmatart farmers makes it hard to do anything on any scale larger than personal.
Maybe if things change a bit...
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If the Amarrians ditched the entire concept of slavery, you could see an Amarr/Gallente relationship being built around culture and technology.
I'm not sure what the sticking point against it would be for the Amarrians, I'd considered lack of faith but it doesn't seem to stop them allying with the Caldari.
Also for the record, an Amarr/Gallente alliance would be horrifically scary in terms of Empire Navy strength, which is why fiction wise it'll never happen.
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If the Amarrians ditched the entire concept of slavery, you could see an Amarr/Gallente relationship being built around culture and technology.
I'm not sure what the sticking point against it would be for the Amarrians, I'd considered lack of faith but it doesn't seem to stop them allying with the Caldari.
Also for the record, an Amarr/Gallente alliance would be horrifically scary in terms of Empire Navy strength, which is why fiction wise it'll never happen.
This. The minmatar and Caldari are both the 'little guys' and it makes sense for them to work together. The Gallente and Amarr are both the 'Big guys' and as a result, there isn't a lot of reason for them to reach out to allies. They are allied with the minnies and caldari respectively as a way to prop up the thorn in the other's side.
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So who can make alliances? I'm happy to foot the bill for it if we can agree on a name.
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If the Amarrians ditched the entire concept of slavery, you could see an Amarr/Gallente relationship being built around culture and technology.
I'm not sure what the sticking point against it would be for the Amarrians, I'd considered lack of faith but it doesn't seem to stop them allying with the Caldari.
Also for the record, an Amarr/Gallente alliance would be horrifically scary in terms of Empire Navy strength, which is why fiction wise it'll never happen.
Leaving all game balance issues aside (which would, by the way, still be fairly balanced when measured in number of capsuleers, which I would say is the real game balance concern), I believe the best approach to take in regard to Amarr/Gallente cooperation would be an economic one. Economy generally seems to affect international politics to an equal if not greater degree than ideology does (the real world is not short of examples of this), and if the current blocs disintegrate, it seems to me that there would be plenty of economic reasons for Gallente and Amarr to grow closer. They are both huge empires with huge populations and strong economies (however inefficiently it may be run in parts of the Amarrian Emppire) and consequently, huge potential markets. They are also both politically outward-looking, as opposed to the more insular Caldari and at least partly also Matari. In addition, while the Caldari and Minmatar societies have been suffering from a lot of political turmoil and instability in recent years, both the Federation and Empire seem to be quite internally stable, making them inherently more attractive to foreign investors, or so at least I imagine.
I'm not an economist, but that's how it looks like to me at least.
By the way, maybe we should have a thread split for the Amarrian-Gallente side of the discussion here?
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It says something about the way EVE has structured its inter-factional conflict that the idea of good Minmatar/Caldari relations pops up frequently but an Amarr/Gallente alliance is something you won't get any support for.
Why not ? Be it Caldari/Minmatar or Gallente/Amarr, they both share a lot of similarities as well as opposites.
The Gallente and Amarr are fairly diametrically opposed, having majorly opposing governmental types and social ideologies. If the Minmatar and Caldari did fully unite against the two, that might be enough to push the Federation and Empire to unite temporarily for a common goal, but that's about it, really.
The Caldari and Minmatar, however, are actually extremely similar in a lot of ways, and part of what I've been seeing IC (also as one of the proponents of such an alliance as Kat has argued this IC on several occasions already) is that the Caldari have an easier time understanding the Minmatar culture because of how similar Megacorps are to the Minmatar concept of Tribes, something that has been a major sticking point in Minmatar/Gallente relations as the Federation has a hard time understanding Minmatar culture and why X, Y, and Z action pisses them off so much.
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5) exploiting the lowsec space between the State and the Republic for profit.
It took me a few minutes to figure out where this is.
Constellations: Ihatalo, Mivora and Aldodan (Forge and Metropolis) - mostly low-sec, connections to two null-sec regions, 1 research station, plenty of other stations.
The idea at this point is to aim high, but not forget the small steps. If we're going to make a genuine in-game alliance out of this, we need member corps, and preferably plenty of people.
We also need a viable plan for making money, a patch of ground to lay claim to, some capital to get the ball rolling and so on. Let's get this thing planned out properly before we start drawing up a logo and everything.
I'm enthusiastic and optimistic to see where we can take this, but we have to be realistic: we need to drum up enough members, ships and ISK first. We need solid "if this goes ahead, I'm in" not "hey, this could be cool" please.
1 - I am not in, this summer I will hopefully be able to play more and will be trying to build a bottom up economy.
2 - This is critical to building a successful alliance. A lot of the people who might support this should already have a good sense of the game and be able to build a successful alliance.
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I'm not sure this should affect anything, but this would be an alliance of the two powers the Jove are most fond of.
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I find this interesting, but as I have prior commitments irl and in game, i will not be participating. However, I would like to offer support in the form of relocating some trade alts to provide a stream of on demand goods - should they be required.
Additionally, DEAD6, when that region opens up to Planetary Conquest, will be available for hire alongside the other corporations you no doubt already have on retainer through friendship/membership. I would love to contribute in my own small way despite being otherwise engaged.
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Axel thinks we should participate, and I don't mind, this has some very good things considering Aseyakone. And more importantly, we are rather casual corp at the moment, but could possibly contribute (already dabbling with primitive and not-so-primitive Minmatar tech).
As for the alliance, there's no hurry. Depending on size, you may want a holding corp. Or then the future executor corp should, if possible, create the ingame alliance. If I-RED does not mind event combining, the Malkalen memorial might be a nice opportunity for unveiling the alliance.
Finally, if you do not find anyone else, Saana has Empire Control V back from when we considered trying to get a research POS. If you want to go on with the Malkalen Memorial idea, I could also throw in a corp named Gariushi Foundation [OTRO] as an at least temporary executor until things get sorted out.
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ICly, Verin would prefer not to politicize the memorial ceremony. Considering he was the one who organised it and built the memorial in the first place he'd be uncomfortable about using it as a platform for this.
Anyway, if we could get a list of names and corps who are in, that'd really help get the ball rolling.
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I can bring AWEX- (Achur-Waschi Exchange) under the banner, though as mentioned I can only offer trade/industrial infrastructure contributions (Ael can fly ships in fleets on demand, but is the only combat capable pilot in the organisation).
If that is sufficient, consider me involved - my Practical affiliation pretty much sits me comfortably in the 'this is a good idea' camp if only for the potential benefits that improved relations with the Minmatar Republic might bring.
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I'm definitely in, although whether you want Yet Another Small Corporation™ or whether you want to streamline the amount of corporations in the alliance for maximum efficiency. Either way I'm good.
This is the first time I've been excited about EVE in a fair while :V.
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For IC reasons (and to dodge NPC corp tax rates) Kairus has founded his own corporation "Vhenok Planetary Management" as a way to entertain less violent means of making money, this could be an avenue for the alliance to have planet-based research facilities as well as space-based ones.
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[...] the potential benefits that improved relations with the Minmatar Republic might bring.
I have quite mixed responses to the idea of the alliance -- it sounds like something that would, in other circumstances, be a fun project -- but I couldn't let this comment pass.
You might get improved relations with certain individuals, and maybe even corps, which will thereby be branded traitors for working with people their tribes are at war with. Far more timid endeavours than this have roused cries of treason.
Low-key, under-the-radar stuff? Sure. Personal connections and encouragement to find ways to work things through? I started my RP career among "the dodgy ones" who did just this. But an official alliance, which looks anti-Gallente, and where people could even in jest suggest the Malkalen memorial as an appropriate launch platform, is... not going to sit well.
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Very true Mata, although personally I feel the benefits outweigh the potential pitfalls - any improvement in relations with Minmatar Republic affiliated capsuleers is an improvement on my current State/Empire-centric trading and cooperation. Even if the detractors outweigh those in favour, I receive a net gain and hopefully this extrapolates to the organisation at large.
I can't speak for Stitcher and his potential implementation of this conceptual alliance - but on the individual/small corp level, any new avenues of cooperation - even if not borne out by NPC factions or larger capsuleer organisations - provides a new avenue of isk generation, resource allocation and the introduction of previously untapped thinking. Anything else is far above expectations on my part.
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It says something about the way EVE has structured its inter-factional conflict that the idea of good Minmatar/Caldari relations pops up frequently but an Amarr/Gallente alliance is something you won't get any support for.
Why not ? Be it Caldari/Minmatar or Gallente/Amarr, they both share a lot of similarities as well as opposites.
The Gallente and Amarr are fairly diametrically opposed, having majorly opposing governmental types and social ideologies. If the Minmatar and Caldari did fully unite against the two, that might be enough to push the Federation and Empire to unite temporarily for a common goal, but that's about it, really.
The Caldari and Minmatar, however, are actually extremely similar in a lot of ways, and part of what I've been seeing IC (also as one of the proponents of such an alliance as Kat has argued this IC on several occasions already) is that the Caldari have an easier time understanding the Minmatar culture because of how similar Megacorps are to the Minmatar concept of Tribes, something that has been a major sticking point in Minmatar/Gallente relations as the Federation has a hard time understanding Minmatar culture and why X, Y, and Z action pisses them off so much.
Well, I couldn't disagree more.
I could enumerate countless counterpoints on why the Minmatar and the Caldari can also be diametrically opposed.
Also, the only thing a megacorp and a tribe share is maybe the collective over the individual. Much like the Amarr and the Gallente share the individual over the collective. That's pretty thin.
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The Malkalen Memorial is not an appropriate place for such things. We (I-RED) OOCly intend for the event to take part without any unnecessary pot-stirring or saber rattling. We want a simple and smooth event that doesn't have a dramatic ending or crescendo of OMG.
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Svain Armaments (wip corp name for my family corp) will I hope serve as part of a foundation for this. I really am enthusiastic.
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I'm excited about this idea. Back when Eve was new, there were interesting chrons showing just how much intercourse there was between the empires (I can't think of the name offhand, but there was one with a Gallentean trader on an Amarr station that I especially liked). This is something that you don't see so much of, anymore, in the RP community. There's a lot of pure-faction-support RP, and a decent amount of outlaw RP, but there isn't as much in-faction-yet-cross-allegiance RP anymore. I'm totally guilty of this, myself - it's much easier to get basic conflict RP if you sit in a faction camp and glare at the folks in the defined opposite factions, so I've let Shin drift into that sort of thing.
I like how this could draw in all sorts of other RP: There are built in hooks for the traditional faction RPers, for outlaws, for pure industry/trade RPers, for sympathetic outsiders, for organizations like SOE, etc.
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That's one reason I'd like to see faction warfare come to a close. There is much more potential for interesting interaction with people from the other side when you aren't shooting at each other.
There is also much more potential for internal strife (Sebiestor undermining the Brutor etc) when they aren't all unifying to fight off the enemy, which I Ti would be a lot more interesting to RP.
I realise there's a bunch of people who will want to keep FW running in some form, but I'd rather the war didn't just continue indefinitely because CCP didn't want to lose the FW pilots. (I'd also like to see incursions wrap up at some stage. There's only so much Sansha I can take before my disbelief stops being suspended).
Perhaps a year or two of dealing with, oh, I don't know, Angels causing problems in the republic while the blood raiders make problems for the Empire? Faction warfare could kick off again after that story line was resolved (or put on hold while the various factions licked their wounds).
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Perhaps a year or two of dealing with, oh, I don't know, Angels causing problems in the republic while the blood raiders make problems for the Empire? Faction warfare could kick off again after that story line was resolved (or put on hold while the various factions licked their wounds).
The audience that FW pulls compared to a marginalized group like the RPers will make sure anything close to period of times categorized by as years will never come to pass in break in FW unless something similar could be introduced to the game to sate the casual PVP need without sec loss and with isk making opportunity.
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The audience that FW pulls compared to a marginalized group like the RPers will make sure anything close to period of times categorized by as years will never come to pass in break in FW unless something similar could be introduced to the game to sate the casual PVP need without sec loss and with isk making opportunity.
Agreed, which is why I suggested the pirate factions might get involved. (I wouldn't be surprised to see quite a few pilots choose to fly with the angels, especially if there are pirate faction ships they can get their hands on)
I'm not sure pirate faction wars are it, but something needs to take FWs place as somewhere people can get shot at and make isk. Accepting that, I'd still like FW to take a break for a bit.
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The audience that FW pulls compared to a marginalized group like the RPers will make sure anything close to period of times categorized by as years will never come to pass in break in FW unless something similar could be introduced to the game to sate the casual PVP need without sec loss and with isk making opportunity.
Agreed, which is why I suggested the pirate factions might get involved. (I wouldn't be surprised to see quite a few pilots choose to fly with the angels, especially if there are pirate faction ships they can get their hands on)
I'm not sure pirate faction wars are it, but something needs to take FWs place as somewhere people can get shot at and make isk. Accepting that, I'd still like FW to take a break for a bit.
Yeh, agreed.
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not all goals are practically attainable when you understand the OOC reasons why not. IC there's no good reason why the Caldari and Minmatar couldn't call a ceasefire and speaking for myself I let my RP lead the way - from Verin's perspective, the only obstacles to peace are diplomatic ones.
Of course I understand OOC that an FW ceasefire is deeply, deeply unlikely but we can have fun carrying on as if it's not because our characters have no reason to believe otherwise.
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How will this capsuleer alliance overcome the Caldari-Khanid relationship? As far as I understand it, the Caldari State's closest ally is the Khanid Kingdom.
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the fact that the State has historically had strong ties with the Kingdom doesn't mean that individual corporations or extracorporate initiatives are required to care about said ties.
(all of which is a fancy way of saying: "I don't give a rat's arse")
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How will this capsuleer alliance overcome the Caldari-Khanid Federation-Republic relationship? As far as I understand it, the Caldari State's Republic's closest ally is the Khanid Kingdom Gallente Federation.
Not a "fix" but a problem completely identical to your question.
Answered by Stitcher. "We don't care."
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Ha! Somewhat reasonable, but then it appears this endeavor is more "Because it's cool", no?
Let's say CCP form a Caldari-Minmatar alliance between the two empires. It would be an arbitrary development, but haven't players had issues with arbitrary storylines for the past five years?
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"More CCP :psyccp: derpery, what else is new?" *compensates*
It would be a bit WTF :s :eek:, yeah, but I somehow envision I might also enjoy sticking up for the Federation that has "no friends" and it would also form a sort of solace with Imperials IC and OOC - being in the same boat, holding their respective forts alone, as such.
It would also be somewhat heroic to hold the two least-populated (by capsuleers) camps vs the two biggest camps combined into one power when the Feds and Imps would be massively outnumbered. Just another day in the same boat as you always were in. * Perseverance*
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Again, this becomes a bit of a mess from the perspective of a FW Corp that has to deal with a flood of non-rp farmers flying the flag of their putative 'Ally' invading State territory.
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Again, this becomes a bit of a mess from the perspective of a FW Corp that has to deal with a flood of non-rp farmers flying the flag of their putative 'Ally' invading State territory.
Is that any worse than large chunks of one of the most active minmatar FW corps ganking miners and haulers in Rens during hulkageddon, and offering free thrashers to anyone else taking part?
The behaviour of FW pilots cannot be used a a guide to the policies of the faction; just saying.
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On FW: I assume that the main target group is PVPers and farmers, not RPers any more.
As for why individual corporations would be interested in working with "the lackey of our enemy" (yes, that feeling is mutual): well, depends if it is profitable and if there's new technology to be gained out of it. OOC, we of course know that "new technology" is a long shot that probably will npt happen. Profit, however, can be measured IC. And then there's the OOC motivation of "this sounds fun, let's see if thing actually works out."
As for NPC interaction, even with our great idols at the Event Team, I would not expect too much. If they'd want to stir the pot, they might bring some defectors back for a brief visit.
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Ha! Somewhat reasonable, but then it appears this endeavor is more "Because it's cool", no?
It always was "because it's cool".
I've been successfully doing "Caldari who is pro-Minmatar" RP for more than two years now. Take it from me, it's a valid angle that can and does work. I honestly couldn't care less about the objections, the entire point is to try this DESPITE the objections.
I want to do this, and I want to see how successful it all gets not because I'm certain it will amount to anything but precisely because I'm NOT certain. I want to try something cool and see what grows out of it purely for the sake of trying something cool to see what grows out of it. The idea is to do something that's fun and enjoy doing it, not to pin my hopes on a specific outcome.
Of course I'd LIKE for the storyline to reflect our efforts, or for new ships to be added to the game based on our actions, or something like that. But first and foremost I want to have fun with a crucible for good roleplay that explores the relationship between two peoples who've been at odds for some time and are only just now starting to question why.
Think of this as a Minecraft survival mode project - the objective is to build something, but most of the fun of building it comes from overcoming the challenges on the way. The difference is that instead of having to deal with Creepers and the search for diamonds, we're competing with other players. If you succeed, great! you can feel proud. If not, you at least had fun making the attempt.
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the fact that the State has historically had strong ties with the Kingdom doesn't mean that individual corporations or extracorporate initiatives are required to care about said ties.
(all of which is a fancy way of saying: "I don't give a rat's arse")
You want to create new direction for lore by pulling a TonyG on it? Fantastic.
While some might not care on a capsuleer level that the Caldari State is one of the largest manufacturers of TCMCs that keep those 'Matari brothers and sisters' forcibly in check and in bondage. I do reckon majority of the Republic will care, and they will care a lot. You can get branded a race traitor for a far less than working with the same people that actively support the subjugation of your people by providing actively efficient technological means to do so.
The reasons for this alliance initiative seem to be very much wishy washy, and it's clear that people are willing to tonyg lore to make it happen because they don't like some articles or loyalist folk that stand with other factions that are their current allies. You want a new pirate class ship? Cool all well and good... Except that's a bad fucking basis for creating an alliance.
Some the republic loyalist folk seem to like to brush over a good deal of backstory of their own faction and their current allied faction. Much as many republic loyalists hate to admit it but there would be no Republic of any shape or form had it not been for the Federation taking the fledgling nation state under their wing. Sure, these two faction don't see always eye to eye, but their relationship for the majority has been a beneficial one, especially for the Republic. Now that Republic is starting to get to it's own to feet finally it would be unwise of them to betray their long time ally for a mere possibility of something with the State. Tribal, non-tribal, that's just incredibly bad politics as currently really only empire entity that can stand toe to toe with the Amarr Empire is the Gallente Federation based purely on the size of their armadas. Caldari seem to be stretched extremely thin in lore just when they were holding Caladri Prime. If they had to fight the two largest empires in the cluster they'd surely crumble. I can only imagine how the Amarr Empire with their slightly irrational Empress would react to the State shacking up with the Republic.
It would be far easier for the State to get turncoat on their allies if it would serve the greater corporate interests to do so. Granted they would have to be huge, huge enough to cover the financial loss and then some that cutting the ties with Khanid Kingdom and Amarr Empire would cost them. Then there's the Minmatar, who are not exactly known for their open armed welcome for people who have actively worked with slavers and supported the slavery of their kin. As much people like to use the 'corps are like tribes' argument, they really should get their head out of their arse, sit down and do a bit of reading. Compare the current capitalist corporate culture to say native american ( or hell why not scandinavian) shamanistic culture and then please tell me again how similar they are.
Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with change - if you can do it without pulling a tonyg, and so far I see nothing but the desire to tonyg and forget and not care about the existing history and prime fiction. I'd be happy to support such of a player endeavor more if it had more initiative and effort in world building and backstory for it than "we don't care and we want a new cross-race ship".
The reason I am saying this also seems that you guys want to build something of an empire legit alliance. This sort of fuck the systems attitude would more work if you'd go down the line of a terrorist/pirate organization with this initiative. Then it would make much more sense. Besides, you don't get cross racial ships without being pirates ;)
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This (Stitcher's post) is what piqued my interest.
Initially I was what one could say 'vocally skeptical' among my friends, but as it became clear that you were focusing on 'doing' and not expecting a fictional return on said doing, it became clear to me that you had put significant thought into this.
To my mind, and please do excuse the personal spin as I have not yet had the pleasure of talking with you meaningfully about this; There are Caldari interests internationally, which abide by local law and are pursuing the agenda of their parent empire in a mostly benign way - frequently just to make isk. What you are proposing, seems to me, to be a capsuleer extension of this process, more vocal and more active to the points of view of our peers, without expectation of sweeping change. Merely the expression of the personal agendas wrapped in a binding charter.
For me personally, the driving motivation would of course be profit, but as an immigrant to the State herself, Aelisha can appreciate the concept of controlled multiculturalism as a stimulus to both trade and social development. This isn't a gob of spit flung at the Empire from the State nor is it the same from the Republic to the Federation. It is a group of capsuleers following an oft voiced concept for personal reasons (be they lofty or base).
Set me straight if I am wrong, but essentially Stitcher seems to be proposing a conceptual alliance that, should your goals align, might be right for you. As with all alliances, it is a buyers market - watch this space, talk with the man himself 1 on 1 and analyse how you can benefit after accounting for what you may be expected to bring/spend.
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Ha! Somewhat reasonable, but then it appears this endeavor is more "Because it's cool", no?
Let's say CCP form a Caldari-Minmatar alliance between the two empires. It would be an arbitrary development, but haven't players had issues with arbitrary storylines for the past five years?
Not entirely arbitrary, no. There are a good number of reasons why the Caldari and the Minmatar would get along. The biggest hindrance would be the Minmatar having nothing to really offer the Caldari in terms of an alliance. A collaboration of Caldari and Sebiestor engineers, however, to enhance each other's ships with tech from the other would be a major step towards building an economic and strategic connection between the two nations, which could eventually lead to more, or could fizzle out and leave us with nothing, or just with some new ship designs of mixed tech.
And IC, we have various people who have been promoting the idea of Caldari/Minmatar collaboration for a while now, so their decision to try and make something actually happen isn't arbitrary either, but rather the culmination of discussion and emotional connections and philosophies. My character, for example, has been pushing the idea that the Caldari would be more appropriate allies than the Gallente because the Gallente are largely unable to understand tribal society, a society that much more resembles the Megacorp society of the Caldari, which has frequently made it easier for Caldari to understand her views than for Gallente to understand them, and she isn't the only Minmatar I've seen with this experience.
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"you're working with the people who make TCMCs!"
"Yes: I figure if we foster good relations with the Caldari we can convince them to stop selling to the Amarr, thereby weakening the slaver's hold on our brothers and sisters!"
"Yes: I'm also working with the people who made Insorum and gave it to the Elders for free. They're not all bad!"
"Yes: I'm hoping to get the Gallente on board as well and then the three of us can gang up on those Amarr bastards"
"Yes: So what? The money's good."
Controversy is fertile ground in which good characters (And parasitic ones) grow.
*
Anyway, is "TonyG" a verb now? What does it mean, exactly? Because if it means "to arbitrarily and aggressively upset the status quo" then I've got news for you: aggressively changing the status quo is perfectly okay when it's the PLAYERS who are doing it, and if it's accomplished through hard work, some inevitable setbacks, and the collective effort of a few hundred players, then any change thus effected will not have been arbitrary.
In any case, the mere fact that I have an end result I'd like to see attained does not mean that I expect that it shall be. Aelisha's quite right, the focus is on "doing" not on "achieving". I'm not anticipating overnight results, nor am I anticipating an arbitrary sea change in the status of the storyline or the technology of the game overnight. You don't get that kind of change without massive effort.
My thought process here is not "Falcon's a bro, he'll make our dreams come true". That'd just insult his professionalism and in any case would rather undermine the entertainment and satisfaction we'd get from doing all the work ourselves.
My thought process is "My character has spent the last two years getting to know the Matari and now truly believes that closer relationships between the Republic and the State are possible. He's going to go for it, if he can drum up the support". I let my RP lead my game, and this is just the next logical step for me. If I can get people on board with that - great!
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Some the republic loyalist folk seem to like to brush over a good deal of backstory of their own faction and their current allied faction. Much as many republic loyalists hate to admit it but there would be no Republic of any shape or form had it not been for the Federation taking the fledgling nation state under their wing. Sure, these two faction don't see always eye to eye, but their relationship for the majority has been a beneficial one, especially for the Republic. Now that Republic is starting to get to it's own to feet finally it would be unwise of them to betray their long time ally for a mere possibility of something with the State. Tribal, non-tribal, that's just incredibly bad politics as currently really only empire entity that can stand toe to toe with the Amarr Empire is the Gallente Federation based purely on the size of their armadas. Caldari seem to be stretched extremely thin in lore just when they were holding Caladri Prime. If they had to fight the two largest empires in the cluster they'd surely crumble. I can only imagine how the Amarr Empire with their slightly irrational Empress would react to the State shacking up with the Republic.
This isn't about what is definitely the best idea. It's about a possibility that many Minmatar who have grown extremely disillusioned with the Federation are interested in and a number of Caldari are interested in for various reasons.
As for your comment about the Minmatar and the Federation, no one is glossing over anything. Even my Character who is anti-Federation and pro-Caldari acknowledges that the Minmatar have needed the Federation, at least in the past. That has nothing to do with what these Minmatar believe is better for the future, however, regardless of whether it actually -is- better for the future.
As for if a full alliance between the Caldari and Minmatar happened, it might or might not end well. The Federation and Empire would be very unlikely to unite against the Caldari and Minmatar, though even as separate entities they would be problematic, but at the same time, such an alliance between the Caldari and Minmatar could even work in the favor of future Caldari-Gallente relations, which could in the long-term lead to a united front of 3 nations against the Empire. Is it likely? No idea, but it's one of many possibilities, dependant on a massive number of varials between the "now" and the "then" that may all be irrelevant if the attempt of this corp alliance ends up falling flat anyway (which we all know, even those of us wanting to make it happen, is entirely posssible and that's one of the reasons we want to do this, to see which way it goes).
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My outlook and comment is based on just what I've seen on a few OOC channels when people have discussing it - and the way they have been discussing it. I welcome you to prove me wrong and make this work and provide a rich field of in depth well thought RP fodder. However, my faith isn't exactly high at the moment.
We'll see.
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The Minmatar-Caldari border is an interesting place. It'd certainly benefit from a few more RPers around.
There are also Ishukone and Kaalakiota stations in the republic border region. I think there's room for a cooperation, at least on a strict business and local level.
Regarding TCMCs. They're not built explicitly for the purpose many holders use the for. They'll be built, and therefore sold. It'd be naive to assume that a direct trade ban with the empire would stop the flow of goods or the proliferation of the technology. Someone used/forced to rely on TCMCs might take a look at Vitoc again, too. Pretty sure that'd be a great boon!
So this can be spun many ways. Trade agreements and relations exist between the State and all empires, as you'll find its stations all over the place.
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Vincent Pryce's thoughts sums up mine well. The use of "TonyG" as a verb indicates the forcing through of storylines arbitrarily (without consideration for holistic factors) "because it's cool". There does not seem to be a holistic consideration as there is a large amount of confirmation bias in exploring Caldari and Minmatar similarities. For example, how would the Caldari feel about the decidedly unmeritocratic nature of the Voluval? While the Caldari corporations and Minmatar tribes possess values of kinship, this does not automatically make them similar. A Caldari corporation is meritocratic, while a Minmatar tribe is based on seniority and/or other factors such as the Voluval.
In addition, I am not convinced the Gallente Federation wholesale fail to understand tribal society either, considering one-third of its population is Minmatar. What gives the impression the Caldari would understand it anymore than the pluralistic Federation? In addition, surely it would be better to improve relations with the Gallente Federation which would, in turn, improve relations with the Minmatar Republic? Cynically, I see this as unlikely, because for reasons I haven't been able to fathom yet, the Gallente are the least popular RP faction. This comes despite the fact that the Gallente/Caldari are cut from the same cloth in terms of structural layout and legal principles (rule of law etc.). They are both capitalistic, after all, but I get the impression that Gallente/Caldari similarities would be talked down as less coherent than Minmatar/Caldari overlaps.
That being said, I'm sure the Caldari would love to exploit the weak Minmatar economy, but I severely doubt they would seek to improve relations with the Minmatar because of Gallente-style righteousness. In the end, though, I would encourage proponents of this alliance to read up on game theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory) and realpolitik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik) if they desire authenticity in this RP. As was pointed out elsewhere, alliances are not built on cultural similarities, but strategic concerns.
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I'm not sure how often I have to repeat that this is about "doing something cool" not "forcing something arbitrary" until people get it but believe me, I'm that
stupid tenacious that I will if I have to.
The point of this whole commission is "We can respect each other and work together despite disagreeing. We have no right to interfere in your system, and you have no right to interfere in ours. Let's confine this venture to what we DO have in common, to how we can benefit one another, and stay out of each others' business unless invited."
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I'd be interested in seeing this. Halete has always been one of the vocal advocates for Caldari/Minmatar relations. The kicker being she likely wouldn't get involved due to that 'Republic' key-word. But ain't I used to that by now.
For the people accusing those pushing the alliance as not taking holistic considerations; lol.
This idea has been going around for literally years. The most involved individuals are fully aware of the various factors at work. NONE of the alliances in EVE's lore are ideal. It's also frankly something you should take to IC and leave out of OOC.
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If you're passionate about the idea and work hard, I see no reason why it can't work. So what if it strays from "the norm"? Go for it.
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I don't see it as arbitrary - at least, in that there have been players with the idea that the Minmatar and Caldari really don't have a reason to be fighting since the beginning of FW (myself included), and a number of reasons to not fight. I'd say that it was the two of them being at war that was a bit arbitrary. As far as TCMCs (which are not only supplied by 'Caldari', but by Ishukone), international relations are tricky like that. It wouldn't be interesting if there were no source of conflict. On the other hand, all those Caldari stations in the Republic probably aren't just making bottlecaps.
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Ha! Somewhat reasonable, but then it appears this endeavor is more "Because it's cool", no?
It always was "because it's cool".
I've been successfully doing "Caldari who is pro-Minmatar" RP for more than two years now. Take it from me, it's a valid angle that can and does work. I honestly couldn't care less about the objections, the entire point is to try this DESPITE the objections.
I want to do this, and I want to see how successful it all gets not because I'm certain it will amount to anything but precisely because I'm NOT certain. I want to try something cool and see what grows out of it purely for the sake of trying something cool to see what grows out of it. The idea is to do something that's fun and enjoy doing it, not to pin my hopes on a specific outcome.
Of course I'd LIKE for the storyline to reflect our efforts, or for new ships to be added to the game based on our actions, or something like that. But first and foremost I want to have fun with a crucible for good roleplay that explores the relationship between two peoples who've been at odds for some time and are only just now starting to question why.
Think of this as a Minecraft survival mode project - the objective is to build something, but most of the fun of building it comes from overcoming the challenges on the way. The difference is that instead of having to deal with Creepers and the search for diamonds, we're competing with other players. If you succeed, great! you can feel proud. If not, you at least had fun making the attempt.
Since there's no like button : ^ this
And to expand :
There are historical examples of soldiers respecting and befriending their enemies and kept fighting the next day, though begrudgingly.
The alliance between the fereration and the republic is more than a century old and oh crap whatever justification I my find will be countered by an equally valid counter justification.
So far it's about individuals and the choice they make. So far, it's strictly about roleplaying something and enjoying it. I don't care a single bit about whatever outcome this may have. Assuming whoever is interested in this rp is about to break the game and/or the lore because of remote and highly improbable consequences is ludicrous. We're setting a cool kids table. We absolutely are. We're not stealing anything from anyone doing so. We're not diminishing anyone's enjoyment of the game doing so : we set the foundations of our own. There are plenty of potential cool kids tables in the Eve universe. Go set them, have fun.
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Yo, at some point there also was a Caldari/Gallente thing, and for what it's worth the ascent of the caldari is owed to the federation as well.
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The reason I am dissenting is because I may be interested so long as I'm convinced this is grounded on a sound basis rather than being a "cool kid's table" as Adreena Madeveda described it as.
For example, there seems to be an element of "shutting out" the Gallente dimension. The justifications behind the Gallente/Minmatar alliance are discredited, or simply not brought up at all. This may be a case of groupthink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink), which makes me uncomfortable participating, as much as I would love to.
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In addition, I am not convinced the Gallente Federation wholesale fail to understand tribal society either, considering one-third of its population is Minmatar.
No one has said that no one in the Federation understands tribal society. There are people who do, in particular Matari who are Federation Citizens. They're not part of the Federation government, which is where the real problem lies. This is really an argument I would rather have IC. It's more a matter of the government and a significant portion (possibly majority) of the Federation public not understanding and not really tolerating it as more than a novelty.
The Caldari wouldn't necessarily fully understand the Minmatar, but they have a better reference point for understanding the importance/significance of Tribe/clan, for example. They may not agree with all aspects of the society, but they can understand significant points of the society more easily.
All of this equates to a group of Caldari and a group of Minmatar deciding to try a joint venture and see if maybe they can influence things for the better in the long run because they like each other.
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The justifications behind the Gallente/Minmatar alliance are discredited, or simply not brought up at all.
Again : individuals and the choices they make. The alliance is between the Republic and the Federation :)
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The reason I am dissenting is because I may be interested so long as I'm convinced this is grounded on a sound basis rather than being a "cool kid's table" as Adreena Madeveda described it as.
For example, there seems to be an element of "shutting out" the Gallente dimension. The justifications behind the Gallente/Minmatar alliance are discredited, or simply not brought up at all. This may be a case of groupthink (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink), which makes me uncomfortable participating, as much as I would love to.
The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude and relating well with Caldari while a decent number of Caldari are relating well with the Minmatar, well enough anyway, and have discussed the idea of "what if the caldari were our allies instead of the FEds?" Then OOC, we're like "Hey, let's see if we can do something with this, since our characters are already interested."
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The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.
Apparently I'm quite ignorant.
You will need to elaborate on this.
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The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.
Apparently I'm quite ignorant.
You will need to elaborate on this.
For the most part this has been pretty low key or internalised, but recently with the federation's reluctance to give any information at all as to the identity/motive/anything of Midular's shooter, quite a few Minmatar are starting to get pretty fed up with the Gallente.
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The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.
Apparently I'm quite ignorant.
You will need to elaborate on this.
For the most part this has been pretty low key or internalised, but recently with the federation's reluctance to give any information at all as to the identity/motive/anything of Midular's shooter, quite a few Minmatar are starting to get pretty fed up with the Gallente.
Because they won't give information to Joe public during a criminal investigation? The irrational frustration caused at someone doing their job has lead into a scenario where they want a relationship with their enemies? Apart from the fact that's spiteful and a disservice to those who've been allies and supported you for years, it's also a very poor way to build any new relationship, and kinda mocks Caldari intelligence.
Looking at it ICly if you took the IGS thread where there are Matari demanding Tribal law is more important than whoever's jurisdiction they happen to be in, as well as demands for information to essentially public figures during a criminal investigation. They're getting offended because unreasonable requests are getting rejected, if the Matari involved were to go "Well sod you then we'll go somewhere else." you think the State is going to look at what caused the split and want any of it?
I mean just imagine the first time the Matari demanded Tribal law take precedent in the State. :bash:
I love the concept and idea, because there shouldn't be a real reason for war between the two and a means to form and forge peace. But the way it's coming about seems to be out of spite and out of the idea that the Caldari are going to hand on a silver platter what the Federation wouldn't.
The issue I have with this is that the characters (not the players) of several of the Matari looking to jump into this, are the type who will make demands and if not served point the finger of blame at the other side of the relationship as being a bad partner, rather than deal with their own obvious issues of feelings of entitlement.
Now this isn't by any means a definition of all the Matari who'd probably get involved into this, but there are some who simply have a selfish "take what we can" attitude to relationships. It's shown for ages with time and again posts again the Federation whenever something isn't going their way, it'll show here with the first bit of tension against such a relationship.
And that'll suck, because some of us have characters who dream of peace. :cry:
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Well christ knows how this post happened...
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The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.
Apparently I'm quite ignorant.
You will need to elaborate on this.
For the most part this has been pretty low key or internalised, but recently with the federation's reluctance to give any information at all as to the identity/motive/anything of Midular's shooter, quite a few Minmatar are starting to get pretty fed up with the Gallente.
I was really hoping this would not be the response, that the idea that a single recent issue would make characters 'fed up' with others despite of how long a relationship? Seriously I figured it was something else, something older and more defined.
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Don't take my word as the whole story by any means. I'm not even subscribed any more, this is purely what I've gleaned from various other forums.
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The Matari are stuffing broken shards of glass up their asses over the Federation doing exactly what the Republic would've done had the situation been reversed.
It's a loud, noisy display of human hypocrisy and little else - it shouldn't be interpreted as anything more than that, imo.
On-topic: My reservations about this kind of thing, IC, are based around the difference between capsuleer support and baseliner support. While plenty of independent capsuleers (players) will support such an initiative because they can, it should not be expected that the baseliner population (the Matari population, anyway) will see this as anything less than treason.
We're talking about allying with the group that is allied with and actively provides military and economic support to the Empire that not only enslaved them once, but is still actively trying to enslave them again. Good luck convincing the average baseliner that this is a good idea - "the friend of my enemy is my enemy" is likely to be the prevailing opinion there.
OOC? Have fun. Can't provide direct support, but depending on where things go and how they're presented, Morwen might be able to justify some low-level background help.
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To make me position on the matter clearer, I do believe that no faction has more nor less affinities with one of the 3 others ones, and believing otherwise seems very alien to me, like delusional. I strongly believe that we can find parallels between everyone of them, as well as opposites.
With that in mind, I am not sure to see why such a fuss about it. I wish you good fortune on your endeavours.
The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.
Apparently I'm quite ignorant.
You will need to elaborate on this.
For the most part this has been pretty low key or internalised, but recently with the federation's reluctance to give any information at all as to the identity/motive/anything of Midular's shooter, quite a few Minmatar are starting to get pretty fed up with the Gallente.
Because they won't give information to Joe public during a criminal investigation? The irrational frustration caused at someone doing their job has lead into a scenario where they want a relationship with their enemies? Apart from the fact that's spiteful and a disservice to those who've been allies and supported you for years, it's also a very poor way to build any new relationship, and kinda mocks Caldari intelligence.
Looking at it ICly if you took the IGS thread where there are Matari demanding Tribal law is more important than whoever's jurisdiction they happen to be in, as well as demands for information to essentially public figures during a criminal investigation. They're getting offended because unreasonable requests are getting rejected, if the Matari involved were to go "Well sod you then we'll go somewhere else." you think the State is going to look at what caused the split and want any of it?
I mean just imagine the first time the Matari demanded Tribal law take precedent in the State. :bash:
I love the concept and idea, because there shouldn't be a real reason for war between the two and a means to form and forge peace. But the way it's coming about seems to be out of spite and out of the idea that the Caldari are going to hand on a silver platter what the Federation wouldn't.
The issue I have with this is that the characters (not the players) of several of the Matari looking to jump into this, are the type who will make demands and if not served point the finger of blame at the other side of the relationship as being a bad partner, rather than deal with their own obvious issues of feelings of entitlement.
Now this isn't by any means a definition of all the Matari who'd probably get involved into this, but there are some who simply have a selfish "take what we can" attitude to relationships. It's shown for ages with time and again posts again the Federation whenever something isn't going their way, it'll show here with the first bit of tension against such a relationship.
And that'll suck, because some of us have characters who dream of peace. :cry:
Go tell them that ICly, that's a magnificent IC argument I think.
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Right. I can think of a number of IC arguments as to why the State would not want to be allies with the Republic.
I mean, the Minmatar have become the 3rd largest ethnic group in the Federation and aren't interested in cultural integration. What happens when they decide to immigrate en mass to the State? They could overwhelm the existing populations and they mostly give no shits about the megacorps.
But, Minmatar and Caldari capsuleers coming together to be buddies has nothing to do with actual relations to the State and the Republic. Makkal keeps quiet and occasionally rolls her eyes when capsuleers from both side wax poetic about how their nations could be BFFs.
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Friendly request: this is the OOC discussion for the project. If we're going to have conversations about the in-character objections, could we maybe start having them in IC channels and threads? kthxbai.
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The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.
Apparently I'm quite ignorant.
You will need to elaborate on this.
For the most part this has been pretty low key or internalised, but recently with the federation's reluctance to give any information at all as to the identity/motive/anything of Midular's shooter, quite a few Minmatar are starting to get pretty fed up with the Gallente.
I was really hoping this would not be the response, that the idea that a single recent issue would make characters 'fed up' with others despite of how long a relationship? Seriously I figured it was something else, something older and more defined.
The incident that Kalara referred to is more akin to the straw that broke the camel's back in regards to becoming "fed up."
It's something that's been a long time in the building. Again, I would rather have this argument IC, but here's a summary of what my character sees/argues.
The Federation chose to help/defend the Minmatar people from the Amarr Empire after the Minmatar Rebellion. We're grateful for that, we really are.
The Federation helped us set up a new government. We appreciate the sentiment, but a democracy doesn't really work for us. It doesn't mesh quite right with our Tribal culture.
The Federation accepted very large numbers of our people into their nation as citizens. We would prefer they had stayed with the Republic, but things have been rocky here, so it's understandable.
That's how it all started. As to how it has built up, well, the Federation has consistently and continually looked down on the Republic/Minmatar people as a primitive, barbaric group that needs to be "uplifted" to Federation ideology. The Federation consistently and continually shows condescension towards the Minmatar Republic/people, treating them like children, or even, in many ways, as a vassal state. Minmatar citizens of the Federation are in many ways second-class citizens. Their culture is looked at as a novelty, amusing when the overall situation is irrelevant, but something to be tossed out the window whenever the Federation deems it irrelevant to current goings-on, such as this latest incident involving the shooter who left Midular in the state she's currently in.
Now, from an OOC perspective, I can see how in some instances the Minmatar may well be reading too much into things, but there is definitely reason for the Minmatar to feel frustrated, and that frustration builds up over time. It's not that the Minmatar are ungrateful for the original help and the defensive assistance they have received from the Federation. They very much are, even if their pride makes them seem otherwise at times. That does not mean, however, that the Federation and the Republic are a good match. Their alliance is an alliance of convenience for the Republic and part of the Federation policy to spread "Freedom and Democracy" to the Galaxy. It has nothing to do with any real mutual respect or understanding, thus why it has fostered so much negativity on both sides. The Federation appears to see the Republic as ungrateful barbarians who refuse to accept the gift of democracy and rage at the every little "imagined" slight, while the Minmatar are seeing the Federation as overbearing, condescending assholes.
Politically, the alliance continues to stand because the Republic does still need the Federation's help to not be overrun by the Amarr Empire and the Federation continues in its attempt to push the Republic into becoming a clone of the Federation (if not eventually being adopted into the Federation altogether).
How long the politics can keep the alliance together is a matter of how long things can go before the rift building between the people spills over completely into the politics of it all. This is particularly bad for the Republic unless they can either get their points across to the Federation or find new allies.
For any further explanation of the Minmatar perspective on this, you'll have to talk to Katarina Musana, or other similarly minded Minmatar, ICly.
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My advice, late night, and half brain-dead:
- Find a core of players interested and actually willing to commit to your project.
- Develop a plan for in-game activities that could work without the RP premise you're aiming at.
- Furnish it with your desired RP angle.
- Launch it.
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Friendly request: this is the OOC discussion for the project. If we're going to have conversations about the in-character objections, could we maybe start having them in IC channels and threads? kthxbai.
[mod]I'm going to add a friendly moderator note that the discussion should get back on the topic of Stitcher's proposal specifically. There is another thread (IIRC) where we were discussing the broader issue, feel free to resuscitate it if you want to discuss why the Minmatar and Caldari have/don't have the potential to be friends.[/mod]
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"you're working with the people who make TCMCs!"
"Yes: I figure if we foster good relations with the Caldari we can convince them to stop selling to the Amarr, thereby weakening the slaver's hold on our brothers and sisters!"
"Yes: I'm also working with the people who made Insorum and gave it to the Elders for free. They're not all bad!"
"Yes: I'm hoping to get the Gallente on board as well and then the three of us can gang up on those Amarr bastards"
"Yes: So what? The money's good."
Controversy is fertile ground in which good characters (And parasitic ones) grow.
*
Anyway, is "TonyG" a verb now?
Actually yes and it is my fault :(. I had made ones on the official EVE forum a long (very long) a boring post about the errors which he had done. I very short form a TonyG is:
If you split your magic/tools/choices/etc. along of your individuals/groups/factions/etc. to get a certain outcome, which you normally wouldnt get. If you want more, and some examples from his book just ask.
_________________
As for the thread, to come back to the topic, and not to make the mods angry :P For the comment here: http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4702.msg74765#msg74765 "I don't give a rat's arse" :O *When Publius is one day back, he will set his standing to Stitcher to -10. Because every decision/move should have his/its outcome, you cant have it all :lol: :lol: :lol:*
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Tibus Heth thinks it's a good idea, lol. The Sebiestor tribe, not so much.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-offer-of-caldari-aid-to-sebiestor-tribe-rejected-1/
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My advice, late night, and half brain-dead:
- Find a core of players interested and actually willing to commit to your project.
- Develop a plan for in-game activities that could work without the RP premise you're aiming at.
- Furnish it with your desired RP angle.
- Launch it.
Thanks :D
It's good to know the way I've been going about it is backed up by somebody else.
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Tibus Heth thinks it's a good idea, lol. The Sebiestor tribe, not so much.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-offer-of-caldari-aid-to-sebiestor-tribe-rejected-1/
Well, what I got out of that was that the Sebeistor gave it a pretty serious amount of thought. If they spent most of the day thinking about it, they hardly rejected it out of hand.
Sounds to me like they genuinely considered the offer, but decided they couldn't trust Heth because he nuts.
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From what I can see, this article provides a rationale for Caldari willing to pursue a closer relationship with the Minmatar; weaken the Gallente Federation on the cluster-wide stage.
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These rationales have always been there.
What we shouldn't forget is that this thread is about the creation of a player/capsuleer alliance, and not an 'official' alliance between the Republic and the State.
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Heth cannot clone.
Midular cannot clone.
They're trying to use neural reconstruction on Midular to save her so she can be cloned. Heth may have wanted to send his doctors and medical staff (read: spies) over there to see what they could glean from the Republic and Federation medical tech. Perhaps it was an attempt for him to save himself, literally.
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"you're working with the people who make TCMCs!"
"Yes: I figure if we foster good relations with the Caldari we can convince them to stop selling to the Amarr, thereby weakening the slaver's hold on our brothers and sisters!"
"Yes: I'm also working with the people who made Insorum and gave it to the Elders for free. They're not all bad!"
"Yes: I'm hoping to get the Gallente on board as well and then the three of us can gang up on those Amarr bastards"
"Yes: So what? The money's good."
Controversy is fertile ground in which good characters (And parasitic ones) grow.
I could not agree more on all of this as a means to explain away Minmatar participation. I also feel characters can change and grow into different people over the course of time as long as it is not contrived and the reasons suit them. The top two here are likely stances my character would take. All though... no one knows about Ishukone giving Insorum to Shakor as it was only in the novel, not announced in news... but yes Insorum came from the Caldari even if they tried to stop it getting out.
Any Minmatar would have to prepare for some flack in this, though. That much is certain. Not a bad thing.. ;)
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Heth cannot clone.
Midular cannot clone.
They're trying to use neural reconstruction on Midular to save her so she can be cloned. Heth may have wanted to send his doctors and medical staff (read: spies) over there to see what they could glean from the Republic and Federation medical tech. Perhaps it was an attempt for him to save himself, literally.
That's quite the conspiracy but that would have been awesome... :P
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Tibus Heth thinks it's a good idea, lol. The Sebiestor tribe, not so much.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-offer-of-caldari-aid-to-sebiestor-tribe-rejected-1/
Well, what I got out of that was that the Sebeistor gave it a pretty serious amount of thought. If they spent most of the day thinking about it, they hardly rejected it out of hand.
Depends on how long a day is on the planet they decided it on, doesn't it? ;)
Heth cannot clone.
Midular cannot clone.
They're trying to use neural reconstruction on Midular to save her so she can be cloned. Heth may have wanted to send his doctors and medical staff (read: spies) over there to see what they could glean from the Republic and Federation medical tech. Perhaps it was an attempt for him to save himself, literally.
Please, please, please let it be this.
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The fun part about motivations is that they're almost never singular.
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I think its an absolutely excellent idea. While I can’t obviously support the project ICly with James, whatever help I could provide OOCly is yours for the asking.
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I'm all for this, even more so now with recent events. Not hard for my guy to get on board with this ICly.
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While i'd love to join this initiative with my matari character, my worry is with the thought of min-calda-tari (sry, bastardised star wars reference) ships...
what niche would they fill?
faster caldari ships?
more heavily tanked minmatar ships?
and what pirate faction would they represent?
the only one that comes to mind at the moment is EoM... and i doubt they'd be friendly enough to release their ships to the general populace. :P
from a real-world technology perspective the hybrid min-cal ships would make sense, but from a game balance perspective i'm not so sure, it seems that they would simply remove each other's biggest flaw.
still... other than the ship issue, Toluijin is certainly interested. Once i get back into eve on the 18th that is.
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and what pirate faction would they represent?
Holy Childs of Stitcher
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Also known as the Brothers of the Beard.
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Knights of The Chin
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I've always found the concept of, "If you do business in the Khanid Kingdom, Amarr Empire or Ammatar Mandate you support slavery and Minmatar want nothing to do with you," As a bit requiring of credulity when Kaalakiota and Ishukone especially have numerous assets in Republic space and the Federation has had a century-long standing FTA with the Empire signed at Girani-Fa.
Economic and political reality has almost always trumped idealistic notions, but the ability to engage in pragmatic realpolitik in RP as in: This is a mutually advantageous business arrangement we're entering into; seems to be less preferred over the more black and white, "These are the good guys and these are the bad guys."
As such, I think the major hurdle with a project like this is less to do with the functional aspects of finding a rationale as to why Caldari would invest or do business in the Republic (They already do to some extent) but rather in effective perception management and the undermining/marginalization of positions against the concept in RP.
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I really look forward to this working. We tried and failed with I-RED, mostly because we are specifically tied to Ishukone. The TCMC subject was a big hit to the Cal-Matari initiative. The entire defector science project thing put the final nail in the coffin.