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[Ollie]

How it plays is not subjective? Try reading the reviews of any racing game ever. How the vehicles handle, how the traction handles, the variation between cars, all of the 'how it plays' aspects are incredibly subjective.

Agreed, and also the main reason I don't read game reviews but instead watch Let's Play vids on YouTube when trying to decide whether to buy a game or not.

[Kala]

Another blog did a "So what's Gamer Gate about anyways?" post that was long and pretty thoroughly slanted.

Oh, I know what it is and what it's about.  I know more about what it is and what it's about than is strictly advisable for my mental well-being, frankly.

I was just curious who, in Bloodbird's opinion, wanted to actively try to destroy gaming.  I don't want to jump to conclusions, generalise or misapply certain extreme viewpoints - certainly not without inquiring first.

[Silas Vitalia]

The gamer gate thing is just one of many gender related hullaboos we will see commonplace now. For most of gaming's history it has been a special club for adolescent males, with 90% of the games catering and reflecting the general tastes of adolescent males (violence, guns, boobs). The demographics have changed, and the flow of the mass market products are changing as well. 

This is a painful process for some very special boys and will be a source of much internet fake crisis for years to come, having to deal with millions of new female and other casual gamers and the diversification of the market.   As a result your going to see and hear a lot more sensational gaming related things involving ladies and their ladybits.

Its hard for any group that is used to being catered to exclusively to not be that thing anymore.

[Jace]

The gamer gate thing is just one of many gender related hullaboos we will see commonplace now. For most of gaming's history it has been a special club for adolescent males, with 90% of the games catering and reflecting the general tastes of adolescent males (violence, guns, boobs). The demographics have changed, and the flow of the mass market products are changing as well. 

This is a painful process for some very special boys and will be a source of much internet fake crisis for years to come, having to deal with millions of new female and other casual gamers and the diversification of the market.   As a result your going to see and hear a lot more sensational gaming related things involving ladies and their ladybits.

Its hard for any group that is used to being catered to exclusively to not be that thing anymore.

+1

[Mizhara]

The really sad thing is how people insist on turning the #gamergate movement into a gender thing. It really isn't. It's about consumers finally getting fed up with a whole series of serious problems in the industry, ranging from piss poor press practices (I swear I didn't mean to do that) persisting (okay that one was intentional) in spite of the concerns raised about it, through publisher practices that are flat out hostile to consumers and the commonality of outright lying to both press and consumers about things (look at Ubisoft's latest about resolutions across platforms as an example) and more. It was sparked by the Zoe Quinn debacle when there were rather credible claims that she as a dev had been sleeping with someone in the press, and also quite cynically manipulated social justice movements to garner sympathy and publicity for her projects.

The press releasing damn near the exact same article across twelve different publications stating that gamers as a demographic are dead within 24 hours of each other severely compounded the issue and caused severe backlash. The only reason gender ever got brought up in the whole thing was because half the internet knee-jerked into white knighting Zoe Quinn. She couldn't possibly be at fault for anything if she's a woman, could she? The gender lines didn't get drawn until that happened and Zoe Quinn herself was never the focal point of the outrage. It was the rather dubious connection to the press that got the whole thing rolling.

Also, let's not forget that The Fine Young Capitalists project which was tailor-made specifically to get more women into making games by giving them the creative control and funding needed for programmers to turn their ideas into full products - one of those games in particular I'm very anxious to get my hands on - got hacked and attacked by the bloody SJWs because they'd been funded largely by people from 4chan. One of the fastest and most successful crowd-funding efforts in recent times, in fact. Oh wait, no. They're all misogynists and a "special club for adolescent males". Spending ridiculous amounts of money getting more women into the industry.

Of course there's harassment going on but I can guarantee you it's equal opportunity harassment. If you're even tangentially connected to gaming, you're getting shit on by someone regardless of gender. The SJW side has doxxed, harassed, hacked, threatened and mobbed personalities ranging from game devs, press professionals and just ordinary people daring to voice #gamergate support. Including women. There's obviously the same going on from the #gamergate side of things, but if you'd actually bothered to do any reading whatsoever you'd see that it's exactly the same kind of vanishingly small minority that you get in every movement ever made taking things too far. Go read a little for yourself if you don't believe it.

I guess it's easier to just demonize something you don't like rather than deal with the fact that these are just ordinary people who got tired of being fucked by the industry and are trying to do something about it. You guys are no better than the ignorant fuckers who equate ISIS with all muslims.

(Oh, and yeah. Nice one George Reese, (Dell employee) actually doing exactly that: Screencap from Twitter.) We're now apparently psychotic rapists, murderers, terrorists and religious zealots. That's not going to be polarizing, is it?

I know it isn't as funny when you can't imagine yourself being some beacon of justice and moral superiority when there aren't windmills to tilt at, but there are actual misogynist and hateful people out there to deal with. Ranting and raving about #gamergate is nothing but a pointless distraction, because they're not your enemies.

[Kala]

The gamer gate thing is just one of many gender related hullaboos we will see commonplace now. For most of gaming's history it has been a special club for adolescent males, with 90% of the games catering and reflecting the general tastes of adolescent males (violence, guns, boobs). The demographics have changed, and the flow of the mass market products are changing as well. 

Hm.  Well, most of gaming's history perobably, but I don't think it was originally.  I don't remember any lines particularly being drawn in the spectrum and atari days for example (when both boys, girls and whole families would be marketed to).

@Miz

I think you've been seeing very different things to me, then.

Re: Leigh Alexander's article, it didn't seem so different to what Silas Vitalia was saying:

This is a painful process for some very special boys and will be a source of much internet fake crisis for years to come, having to deal with millions of new female and other casual gamers and the diversification of the market.   As a result your going to see and hear a lot more sensational gaming related things involving ladies and their ladybits.  Its hard for any group that is used to being catered to exclusively to not be that thing anymore.

Which is actually a good and positive thing; gaming diversifying means more choice.  It doesn't mean everything will be sanitized and feminized, or destroyed - there are always going to be broshooters and whatever else specifically directed at a safe 14-20 year old male demographic; and probably most AAA titles are going to be mainly directed at that demographic for a while to come.  But gradually, gaming in general is opening up.  Which means more of a variety of (hopefully) interesting games.

It's not a binary choice here; we can have both.  Games can be shooting stuff with your friends.  Games can also be art that makes you think and/or feel.  (There's also no reason why those things can't overlap).

Equally, it's a good and positive thing for undermining the stereotype than games are only for a specific type of person; the gamer stereotype.  (Though in fairness, there's actually a few of those, but still centred around the idea of an obsessive overweight shut-in manchild) As I'm sure we're all aware (?) gaming as a hobby has had a certain amount of stigma attached - that it's sad, that it's for kids or that it's just violent and stupid.

(nevermind that it's actually actively engaging you, compared to something like watching reality tv passively  )

Though there are people who seem intent on living up to the stereotype, and are demanding that games are only for them, as 'true' 'real' or 'proper' gamers (?) and that a creative medium never grows, develops or changes creatively (only technologically) and otherwise remains the same. (which ends up being bad for everyone as things stagnate).

Oh - and I'd also comment, that despite this debate being completely codified by gender, it isn't just the idea that women are 'suddenly' noticing games, and now everything has to change for them (which is ridiculous - I saw someone comment "girls only started caring about games since 2005" *counts on fingers* yeah, ok, I've been playing them for 21 years, so point disproved) - because, yes, women are outside of that catered for safe demographic...

But so are the men who have outgrown that demographic.  The guys in their 30s, 40s, and beyond who grew up with the industry. 

So when we're getting into targeted demographics and who games are for, I think lines can easily be drawn along the age bracket as well as the gender bracket.

(and all this, ofc, comes back to the fundamental questions posed earlier - what are games, who are gamers.  It seems to me that if this gatekeeping of a medium isn't 'dead', it should be.  games should have limitless potential as a medium.  games are for everyone. gamers are the people who play them).

Which, hopefully, has been said more nicely in this forum post than Leigh Alexander wrote in her article, but it's essentially the same ideas.

[Lyn Farel]

Women have had around the same ratio than men when it comes to gaming for ages now (47%). We do not live in late 20th century anymore.

Which is somehow why I tend to giggle at people claiming that they want to increase the interest and number of female gamers in gaming. While in theory their intention is nice and all, the goal is already more or less achieved.

The issue is not their numbers, the issue is more about misrepresentation, sexism, underepresentation, and all the things that have come recently. Especially when it gets mixed with journalistic corruption for whatever reason...

[Kala]

Women have had around the same ratio than men when it comes to gaming for ages now (47%). We do not live in late 20th century anymore.

Though that statistic is apparently very...controversial or contentious. People will say that's deliberately misleading and misrepresenting the data; that casual games like facebook games or candy crush etc are skewing it and it doesn't mean real games.

...Which leads us back to the question of what is a 'real' game?

The issue is not their numbers, the issue is more about misrepresentation, sexism, underepresentation, and all the things that have come recently. Especially when it gets mixed with journalistic corruption for whatever reason...

Agreed.

[BloodBird]

The gamer gate thing is just one of many gender related hullaboos we will see commonplace now. For most of gaming's history it has been a special club for adolescent males, with 90% of the games catering and reflecting the general tastes of adolescent males (violence, guns, boobs). The demographics have changed, and the flow of the mass market products are changing as well. 

This is a painful process for some very special boys and will be a source of much internet fake crisis for years to come, having to deal with millions of new female and other casual gamers and the diversification of the market.   As a result your going to see and hear a lot more sensational gaming related things involving ladies and their ladybits.

Its hard for any group that is used to being catered to exclusively to not be that thing anymore.

-1

I could say my honest opinion on this topic and explain my stance, but I'm fortunate to find Miz has done so already, so +1 to you Mizhara, thanks for sharing that, so I won't have to (do a piss-poor job of) explain it.

As for you Silas, your stance on this is so homogeneously identical to the countless other SjW arguments about gamergate that I've seen that I'm not even amused by the incredible misrepresentation and lack of representing the opposing viewpoints honestly and fairly anymore. I have little to say to you other then point out, in the interest of fairness, that my respect for you - built over several years of EVE gaming - is eroded to the point where it's completely gone.

I'm sure you don't give a shit, after all who am I to you again? I'm sure, no-one of any importance at best, some storm-trooper for the hetero-white-cis-male run patriarchy or something, at worst.

Gamergate was presented almost perfectly by Mizhara above. I would appreciate it if you would, from now on, use that as a base for future arguing over this topic, as anything ELSE is willful misrepresentation of the opposing viewpoints for the pro #GamerGate people.

And this is where I will take my leave of this topic, (assuming I can manage to do so for very long that is) before I delve into something really offensive and stupid that get me perma-purged from these boards.

After all, the topic is effectively about #Gamergate, and Miz already covered what I wanted or could say. Thanks again for that.

[Jace]

It seems odd to let respect for someone be lost so easily by a single opinion. I'm guessing that respect wasn't worth having in the first place, then.

[Mizhara]

When it's the same type of "opinion" as those who denounce muslims as terrorists, all southerners are racists, french people are cheese eating snobs and every american is a gun-toting redneck, all liberals are socialist hippies, every conservative is a hateful old bastard etc etc it shouldn't be surprising when it has a rather eroding effect on respect.

There are examples of all of the above in their respective groups, but you don't declare the group as such even when the examples are the loudest and easiest to notice.

[Jace]

When it's the same type of "opinion" as those who denounce muslims as terrorists, all southerners are racists, french people are cheese eating snobs and every american is a gun-toting redneck, all liberals are socialist hippies, every conservative is a hateful old bastard etc etc it shouldn't be surprising when it has a rather eroding effect on respect.

There are examples of all of the above in their respective groups, but you don't declare the group as such even when the examples are the loudest and easiest to notice.

If you read what she said in her post, Silas uses several modifying words such as 'general,' 'some,' and so on. It was clearly written to avoid the very thing you are claiming she is doing.

Obviously Silas doesn't need me as defense - I am defending my +1 of it, before anyone goes down that rabbit trail.

[Silas Vitalia]

I think we can trace a pretty direct line from how people react to being criticized and connect it to whether they believe their social group is part of a particular problem.

For example in my experience if you're a white male and don't believe in the concept of institutional racism, you are going to have difficulty seeing evidence of such a thing when presented with it, and will often react defensively and aggressively when the subject is broached. 

I will draw a very clear connection to the sorts of gamers that are extremely defensive, prickly, and aggressive about acknowledging or discussing the rampant sexual issues in the industry.   

"Gaming" in the current sense is generally an extremely toxic and unwelcoming place for women, when it comes to anonymous internet conduct in games, the content of the games themselves, or the marketing of the games.  If you happen to be the type that disagrees with that measurable fact then we can generally print out your opinions on gamergate and a rash of similar topics before you even speak them. 

If you don't see and acknowledge a pervasive and systemic issue with a certain thing, then you can't take positive steps towards fixing that thing.  That's the very first step.


Edit:

As for Bloodbird, I certainly stand by my aggregate total of posting opinions and general forum conduct here on backstage. I do occasionally get a comment snipped for +10 snark, but I think in general I try to be reasonable while still maintaining a strong opinion.  Some people agree and some don't, just like anyone else.   I'm not sure though if your posting maintains in general a positive interaction with others here on backstage?

 I think you do answer your own statements though, as far as who you are to me and what your respect adds or detracts from me.

[Lyn Farel]

Women have had around the same ratio than men when it comes to gaming for ages now (47%). We do not live in late 20th century anymore.

Though that statistic is apparently very...controversial or contentious. People will say that's deliberately misleading and misrepresenting the data; that casual games like facebook games or candy crush etc are skewing it and it doesn't mean real games.

...Which leads us back to the question of what is a 'real' game?

Heh, I initially added that unless we are speaking about women in the hardcore gaming milieu... Which is perhaps lower ? I don't even know, don't even have the stats. Probably. Probably less than several years before too ?

I removed it precisely because I don't know. I'm not even sure it is measurable as easily as the ratio of women/men in gaming in general.

In any case my point was that the issue is not bringing more women into the industry (oh hell, why not ? And more men too while we are at it !  ), but making it a bit less obnoxious for them.

[Mizhara]

What does that have to do with #gamergate? You're shitting on a movement about trust issues with both the media, publishers and devs, and with the indie scene in general over something that's an overall issue with gaming and the industry surrounding it. Of course, you're not going to stop tilting at that windmill no matter what is said, so why bother? Bloodbird is right, this thread is past its expiration date.